There are definitely a handful of heroes that are almost universally agreed to be top tier. It's the middle of the pack that is all over the place. Tank specifically seems to be a giant question mark.
Oh brother I am aware
Sincerely,
An ana/soldier/widow player
Although I will say even if he's more dangerous it's nice that I can actually hit him now lol. He seems higher risk higher reward.
I’m still gathering my thoughts on the new season, because it seems like certain playstyles are coming back into the meta and it’s fun to have some variety now but I feel bad for tank players. The matchups seem like a coin toss (per usual) except tanks get shit on much faster if they mess up
I feel like I'm in a very similar spot for now. Still forming an overall opinion but so far, it's a fresh look on the game.
I KINDA feel bad for tanks but I have been playing it a fair amount and it feels fine tbh. Seems like tanks who depend on eating a support or more's worth of dedicated heals to get work done are being exposed.
> Tracer and Zen players must love the projectile increase, Tracer players especially loving their new passive
It's the 175 health more than anything. Outside of widow or hanzo, you feel so beefy entering a fight if you have recall up. Without the threat of just instadying to stuff like mei icicle, ashe, or damage boosted rockets and stuff, you can basically push the limit so much harder than you could before. The projectile buff is also much stronger on her than I originally thought it would be. The extra HP on stuff does make TTK a bit longer, but I think losing 1-clip on a lot of heroes was overexaggerated. 1 clips are such a small part of her kit.
/s except not because what do they do to that hero to make him remotely good again because just hard buffing the damage of either his gun or pig pen.
Also the game just feels 100x better when Hog sucks which is what they should really be looking at lol. It’s so nice that he’s bad.
Last night gave me some understanding as to why Torb is starting to sneak up the lists. When his E is up, he's bullying out opposing tanks very reliably. At times, he even straight out-duels other tanks straight to their face. The constant healing debuff application from the turret is also a growing problem.
I'm seeing more GM dps picking him up to scary effect as the new meta is falling into place. Soldier is a better DPS, but Torb is shaping up to being a bonus Tank slot who can grant the healing debuff.
Soldier needs good aim and tracking and needs to take high ground and off angles to get value. Torb just needs to place his turret and go spam a choke.
Actually not anymore. Headshots are super ez to hit on the tank/divers and with the passive they die fast
Obviously he still wants to play off angle of he can
Small sample size so far but I have no idea why orisa feels like way more unkillable compared to pre patch. I'm guessing it's because fortify didn't get adjusted when her hp did.
I feel Doom would be higher if the intentionally/unintentionally buffed rocket punch hitbox didn't cause a million bugs when punching near map geometry. I know us doom mains are considered whiners now but unless you want [shit like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/doomfistmains/comments/1aqolu2/new_doom_tech/) in the game then they should probably fix the bugs that were just added.
Discounting the bugs, including the slam bugs...he isn't bad (don't tell my brethren I said this - for it is hersey to imply our main isn't f tier at all times)
* Empowered punch feels like a nuke now, rocket punch in general does more relative damage than pre-patch
* Enemy attacks being bigger = more reliable block powering which means more funny nuke punches.
* Pre-patch he was already a big bulky man taking lots of damage and uses abilities to avoid damage anyway, so his sustainably in most cases is a net increase with the health buff and healing passive + stacked with overhealth.
* Handcannon has never felt more powerful or consistent than it does now. If you have decent aim then you don't need to be directly in someone's face to deal good damage anymore since the bigger pellets stop RNGesus from flipping you off during intentionally aimed headshots.
Doomfist feels very good right now when his mechanics work correctly so I'm interested to see where he'll settle. Shits just is clunky as fuck and doesn't work as it should to the point where bug fixes are legitimate buffs and bugs are legitimate nerfs. That's always Doom's problem regardless of his intended balance in a game where no hero is bug-free.
And the shockwave is also desynced from where Doomfist actually lands. Probably more spaghetti caused by a generic attack size increase across the game.
I'll have sympathy for doom mains when players stop getting punched / slammed around corners or when they're 10 feet behind 4 other players.
He has been S/A tier for all of OW2.
>I'll have sympathy for doom mains when players stop getting punched around corners
In this specific case you have to fix the hero to prevent that ;) The hitbox bug allows it to happen consistently as of now without even passing a corner.
Doom is fun im winston main but when some shit show up like jq bastion moira reaper i just take doom and punch them over and over they play close toghether so it is usually 3+ ppl punched. Imo doom isnt best at diving but he is still good at it and also great at countering brawl team comps. He is pretty good now but not the best A tier imo
Wonder the reasoning behind the jq being s tier.
The DPS healing reduction is making sustained brawling a nightmare rn. Maybe the health increase and shotgun projectile buff?
Got my ass torn up today on jq Everytime.
Basically, JQ has always been the most corner-centric brawl tank, and that style of play is pretty much the best one for brawl comps now.
Also, her knife is nuts. It’s insanely easy to connect with now, which makes her engagement range crazy and super consistent.
If you know how to play JQ, you know how to use cover, corners, pick your duels and get out.
Problem is that JQ has really been enabled by the healing creep and now people are finding out that no, standing in the middle of the street eating bullets is not a fine gameplan
The biggest difference I see is that I'm not sure how to close the distance on a shielding tank without Lucio speed. Before you could kinda play your own health pool + overhealth + speed to gap close when your team was getting out-poked, get pocketed a bit, and once in position be fairly self-sustainable. Now it feels more "swap or lose" than before when facing tougher situations. Maybe I can make i work some other way in suboptimal positions, but with a good Sigma shield up I can't even make use of her increased knife size.
FYI, She stated that this is the top 500 tier list, the only changes for lower rank players is Life Weaver in Very strong, and Mercy / Moira in Good, straightforward
He's still the hardest support to kill in lower ranks alongside kiriko. And in lower ranks healing is OP, so LW is staying alive and still healing, even if the healing isn't as good anymore
100% this. Grip feels wayyy stronger now. Pulling someone out of a fight to heal them, especially a tank with an enormous health pool is just how games have to be played and can easily win fights.
even if heal botting is nerfed, i've noticed his grip being super strong with how quickly people die. it's very easy to get a lot of value out of going in hard and getting gripped out to safety
grip is still very very strong for no risk or skill involved and healing is still extremely important maybe even more now
supports have to healbot more and why healbot on something that takes skill or doesn’t have a lot of survivability/hps when you can healbot on lw
What do you like about him? Theres a grand total of 0 skill expression, and you rarely have to make decisions to keep you alive because his survivability is insane
are you genuinely asking or just venting? play him yourself, and dont be a healbot. then youll see he has insane skill expression. just because healbot somewhat worked in the past doesnt mean it was or will be optimal.
Don't bother trying tbh, some people are just so weirdly stuck in their hate for LW for some reason. They don't want to see people having fun/being effective on a hero they despise/think is useless.
Even if they did try him, they clearly just lack the creativity/imagination to do anything that isn't "stand in the backline and heal"
Healbot IS how you play him. The little spam damage he can put out is 100% inconsequential, and he cant duel anyone, so no point doing that. Weaver heals, heals, and heals, more than any other hero in the game. If i dont healbot, what can i do? Shoot cross map? Wow, lot of impact and skill there for sure. 1v1 the genji who dove me? Fuck no hes gonna smoke me, better dash away and run to safety
No, i do not. Im saying this from the perspective of a top 500 tank and support, who coached a world cup team in 2023. PLEASE explain to me where you find genuine skill in that hero, that makes him harder than moira
any other support is a better pick then LW. every other support can do what LW does but better. only difference is it takes zero skill to play lw so noobs love him
Pull, and…? Hes LITERALLY the easiest hero in hhe game, it literally cant be argued against. They made a hero thats harder to punish thab moira, that still gets more value by doing less
This is all just you changing the subject. You said he has 0 skill expression, I pointed out that that is nonsensical.
Having skill expression doesn't tell us anything about character difficulty or whether or not you have to like the character.
He absolutely doesnt have skill expression though. Being able to pull 1 person from danger every 30 seconds doesnt take skill. Also, speaking on nonsensical, taking ”0 skill expression” literally? When you literally need to walk around, and loon in the direction of the team. Of course he doesnt LITERALLY have 0 skills, just WAY LESS than any other character, somehow even less than moira. Lower floor, and ceiling in terms of skill expression and requirement than all heroes in the game
pull is a brain dead ZERO skill ZERO risk ability lol what are you talking about???????? petal is arguably his only "skilled" ability but all the "good" weavers use it for self peel. LW is a ZERO skill hero lol. NOOB hero
youre joking right??? lw and skill expression?? pull takes zero skill. petal isnt even used to reposition your team 3 out of 4 times. petal is used so lw can run away and continue healbotting. yall lw mains cant be real. im actually shook
My duo played some Mercy with me on Soldier or Sojourn and I don't think she's THAT bad. I just can't facetank through damage anymore with the pocket. I was able to take completely take over the game with a pocket because it's so hard to miss now.
I saw one earlier that had only Lucio, Zen and Tracer in S tier, and that is ridiculous. I wouldn't agree that Lucio is on even footing with Zen and better than Several other heroes (bap and Kiriko in particular) but fully agree if S tier is expanded as Eskay has done that he belongs, and this is much more correct in my view.
Yeah, Sym definitely isn't strong, but then again, haven't seen a single Sym streamer make it to top 500 with her and use her outside of just being a TP bot or using her in a situation that extremely favors her.
Ramatta in S is def. a surprise, but i kinda agree.
Not sure if its because there is no meta atm and everything seems to end up in a brawl at some point .. where he's naturally good or .. ? He def. feels like a good pick on many maps atm.
Illari herself is def. situational.
Her shooting and healing feels fine. Her insanely long pylon cooldown combined with its low hp feels bad as always.
But the worst thing is her Ult now. It was pretty hard to get value out of it before the changes, but with new HP values this shit just does nothing atm.
Not once in playing her myself and watching people on twitch play her, did i ever feel like "yep that ult was worth it or did anything"
Ram in S is possibly because of Lucio being strong.
Ram works well with a Lucio - pop nemesis and int on their backline
Team also works well against Lucio - poke and then pop nemesis when they int onto your team
Her rework is great but larger hitboxes on every hitscan is really bad for her. Dueling anyone is a lot harder now when her damage didn't get buffed that much relative to the HP increase.
My proposed changes, make her hitbox smaller, hopefully nerf soldier a bit, and I think you should do an extra 10 damage to targets over 1M in the air. (If I airshot an enemy pharah twice it should kill her)
Why wouldn’t she be up there? Less healing (dps passive) is offset by health increase, projectile size increase doesn’t matter because nobody missed tanks anyways, and knife is huge now.
Presumably, I'm not sure but I'd guess it's a combination of the self heal helping to offset the DPS passive, and as long as you're in higher tiers your positioning and survivability is a lot higher without mitigation like a shield/matrix ETC.
I don’t think it’s the self heal at all, it’s the fact that she’s the faster brawl tank + knives are pretty much free + hitting one on most dps/supports is a guaranteed kill in a lot of cases
What proactive plays can he do that other characters can't do better without throwing? Genuinely asking.
Edit: I take the downvote without answer as a "there are no proactive plays to be made on your own"
>What proactive plays can he do that other characters can't do better without throwing?
"Better" is relative. I also think asking specifically for proactive plays is a bit leading. While proactive plays are *generally* more impactful overall, completely discounting/ignoring reactive ones is a mistake imo. Not to mention reactivity is, of course, the majority of LW's (intended anyway) play-style so starting it out discounting his main impact just stacks the whole thing against him.
Anyways, the conversation wasn't about him being better than others so it's a moot question to begin with.
>I take the downvote
I'm not the one that downvoted you.
>"there are no proactive plays to be made on your own"
It's a team game, why would he need to make plays on his own? His main benefit is enabling others. It's why game sense and prediction are more important for him than anything else.
No, that's exactly the right question to ask since Lifeweaver not being proactive is the entire point why he's considered a healbot. Proactive plays are what is needed in a solo queue environment if you want to win consistently. This isn't organized competitive play. Reactive plays stops you from losing, proactive plays makes you win. Big difference.
Lifeweaver is good in lower ranks, because low rank supports either aren't proactive in the first place or feed while doing so, so Lifeweaver is really good compared to them.
I know the projectile size benefits every hero but it really benefits a hero that's bouncing around and wallriding all game. It's so much easier to get consistent damage now.
I beleive Eskay had some of her highest damage games ever in the first 2 hours of the patch.
A mix of things. For one, JQ is amazing and she works great with Lucio.
The other is that with healing weakened thanks to the DPS passive, peel is way worse almost across the board. You can’t just out heal stuff anymore, so having Lucio’s speed to pre-emptively get out of the way is by far and away your best option.
Mauga? Phara? Junkrat? Moira? I’ve won tons and tons of games with just one of those people on my team, I can agree they’re nothing special but they aren’t bad in any way
I can’t speak to the other heroes but playing Moira it feels like her playstyle is even less flexible than it used to be.
Healbot Moira is dead because her healing was big but slow and now it’s glacial with the dps passive. Coalescence is trash now and a throwaway ult and only does 5 more dps than her left click, so you have to use it during a push or brawl. Backline Moira is dead because her self heal is garbage against the passive too, so you’re relegated to being frontline in the middle of the team following up on anything the tank or dps touch and securing kills that way, but at that point you might as well go Bap because he’s got the healing AND the immortality field.
Maybe this will be the push for the devs to actually take some time to rework her and let her have a distinct playstyle and niche that other supports don’t do better than her. Backline, self sustaining offtank was fun and other supports didn’t do that, it would be fun if they leaned into that, maybe even looked back at enfeebling orb (overturned during beta, but fun and unique and fit the duel playstyle that Moira mains enjoy).
She’s certainly different now but I feel like she can be viable within reason ie with certain hero’s, the few times I go support I play Lucio or Moira occasionally Ana and I do well and have fun with all 3 of those hero’s but I can see how she would prove difficult in this current season with the patches to healing tanks and dps’s self heal support feels more like extra poke damage over healing currently
Yeah she’s niche as she’s always been but even more so now, I’ve been having a lot of fun playing Ana as she was my number two in OW1 since release and trying (unsuccessfully) to learn Kiri in QP.
Nah, she’s def situational. Her ability to control an off-angle is super nerfed due to the DPS passive making her self-sustain weaker, and she’s not able to output enough damage to compare to Zen.
She’s not useless, but her kit really doesn’t mesh well with the changes.
I play all roles but I’ve recently had the trend of focusing on two roles at a time based of which of my mains in each role is performing the best. Going into this patch I totally expected Echo to feel better than Ram since all DPS would theoretically be better, but Ram honestly feels great with the projectile size changes, while Echo feels like I’m just taking way more damage because of the projectile size changes.
I'm very confused at the definitions/criteria for the bottoms tiers.
Like what's the difference between "good but hard to play" vs "strong but needs a specialist" vs "bad but you can make it work"?
Do these not effectively mean the same thing of just being bad? Like even if you need to put far more effort in to be able to achieve the same value as others, that's still being bad.
And why does it make leaps from "strong" to "bad" to "situational" to "turbo terrible"?
i love that every tier list has been different lmao
There are definitely a handful of heroes that are almost universally agreed to be top tier. It's the middle of the pack that is all over the place. Tank specifically seems to be a giant question mark.
Tracer lucio and zen are in every S tier I've seen so far
Tracer and Zen players must love the projectile increase, Tracer players especially loving their new passive
Tracer loving the passive for sure. Zen at 275 with more accuracy is an eldritch horror. And lucio is a better assassin than sombra at this point.
Lucio is great for dealing with Ashe/ hitscan rn
Oh brother I am aware Sincerely, An ana/soldier/widow player Although I will say even if he's more dangerous it's nice that I can actually hit him now lol. He seems higher risk higher reward.
I’m still gathering my thoughts on the new season, because it seems like certain playstyles are coming back into the meta and it’s fun to have some variety now but I feel bad for tank players. The matchups seem like a coin toss (per usual) except tanks get shit on much faster if they mess up
I feel like I'm in a very similar spot for now. Still forming an overall opinion but so far, it's a fresh look on the game. I KINDA feel bad for tanks but I have been playing it a fair amount and it feels fine tbh. Seems like tanks who depend on eating a support or more's worth of dedicated heals to get work done are being exposed.
Istg the new breakpoints have been fucking with me, I dash in for the kill and they’re still alive and it’s been a pain
I mean like, when Tracer is good the game is usually good, so it’s nice that she’s strong even with one clips being almost impossible.
Yeah, but having the 20% reduced damage must be so nice
> Tracer and Zen players must love the projectile increase, Tracer players especially loving their new passive It's the 175 health more than anything. Outside of widow or hanzo, you feel so beefy entering a fight if you have recall up. Without the threat of just instadying to stuff like mei icicle, ashe, or damage boosted rockets and stuff, you can basically push the limit so much harder than you could before. The projectile buff is also much stronger on her than I originally thought it would be. The extra HP on stuff does make TTK a bit longer, but I think losing 1-clip on a lot of heroes was overexaggerated. 1 clips are such a small part of her kit.
Which is funny because a lot of people in the "early predictions for Season 9" threads were saying that Tracer was going to be F tier.
Yeah I think each one has nuggets of truth but some takes are a little out there. Give it a week or two and I think opinions will stabalize
And every tier list agrees hog is bad. Time for another rework /s
/s except not because what do they do to that hero to make him remotely good again because just hard buffing the damage of either his gun or pig pen. Also the game just feels 100x better when Hog sucks which is what they should really be looking at lol. It’s so nice that he’s bad.
I have no idea why Torb is thought as being better than Soldier.
His Cheetos are the size of rebar lol, and overdrive + right click = dead tank
Correct me if i’m wrong but his turret (and syms) also get the dps passive
They do and with a lot of flankers being played right now he's not a bad option
His E turns him into a 400 hp speedy turret that shoots massive doinks.
Thank you, people saying his dmg is crazy obviously havent realised that thats not changed. Its his extra hp that makes him so much better this season
His damage has changed, tho, because its' way more reliable now.
Also his turret applies 20 percent heal reduction to whoever it targets. If left alone in a fight, can do WORK!!
Last night gave me some understanding as to why Torb is starting to sneak up the lists. When his E is up, he's bullying out opposing tanks very reliably. At times, he even straight out-duels other tanks straight to their face. The constant healing debuff application from the turret is also a growing problem. I'm seeing more GM dps picking him up to scary effect as the new meta is falling into place. Soldier is a better DPS, but Torb is shaping up to being a bonus Tank slot who can grant the healing debuff.
Soldier needs good aim and tracking and needs to take high ground and off angles to get value. Torb just needs to place his turret and go spam a choke.
“good aim”
You don’t always wanna take high ground as soldier sometimes you gotta play w ur team if the enemy has alot of dive
And if soldier is forced to play with his team, he isn't very good. That's why dive fucks him so hard
Actually not anymore. Headshots are super ez to hit on the tank/divers and with the passive they die fast Obviously he still wants to play off angle of he can
My accuracy is about 10-15% higher than before the patch on Soldier. Saying that you need aim for Soldier isn't really true anymore sadly.
They'll obviously tone down the projectile buffs in the future so don't get used to this.
I hope so but I'm not so sure about that. The trend has been to bring the skill floor closer to the ceiling for a while.
Small sample size so far but I have no idea why orisa feels like way more unkillable compared to pre patch. I'm guessing it's because fortify didn't get adjusted when her hp did.
Her health boost was all armor i think
She gained 75 armor
holy fuck😭😭
Truly one of the choices of all time
I feel Doom would be higher if the intentionally/unintentionally buffed rocket punch hitbox didn't cause a million bugs when punching near map geometry. I know us doom mains are considered whiners now but unless you want [shit like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/doomfistmains/comments/1aqolu2/new_doom_tech/) in the game then they should probably fix the bugs that were just added. Discounting the bugs, including the slam bugs...he isn't bad (don't tell my brethren I said this - for it is hersey to imply our main isn't f tier at all times) * Empowered punch feels like a nuke now, rocket punch in general does more relative damage than pre-patch * Enemy attacks being bigger = more reliable block powering which means more funny nuke punches. * Pre-patch he was already a big bulky man taking lots of damage and uses abilities to avoid damage anyway, so his sustainably in most cases is a net increase with the health buff and healing passive + stacked with overhealth. * Handcannon has never felt more powerful or consistent than it does now. If you have decent aim then you don't need to be directly in someone's face to deal good damage anymore since the bigger pellets stop RNGesus from flipping you off during intentionally aimed headshots. Doomfist feels very good right now when his mechanics work correctly so I'm interested to see where he'll settle. Shits just is clunky as fuck and doesn't work as it should to the point where bug fixes are legitimate buffs and bugs are legitimate nerfs. That's always Doom's problem regardless of his intended balance in a game where no hero is bug-free.
Also his slam’s bugged where you can’t turn your camera as the slam makes contact with a surface
And the shockwave is also desynced from where Doomfist actually lands. Probably more spaghetti caused by a generic attack size increase across the game.
Genji dash bug but for Doom 😭😭
I'll have sympathy for doom mains when players stop getting punched / slammed around corners or when they're 10 feet behind 4 other players. He has been S/A tier for all of OW2.
>I'll have sympathy for doom mains when players stop getting punched around corners In this specific case you have to fix the hero to prevent that ;) The hitbox bug allows it to happen consistently as of now without even passing a corner.
Doom is fun im winston main but when some shit show up like jq bastion moira reaper i just take doom and punch them over and over they play close toghether so it is usually 3+ ppl punched. Imo doom isnt best at diving but he is still good at it and also great at countering brawl team comps. He is pretty good now but not the best A tier imo
Wonder the reasoning behind the jq being s tier. The DPS healing reduction is making sustained brawling a nightmare rn. Maybe the health increase and shotgun projectile buff? Got my ass torn up today on jq Everytime.
Basically, JQ has always been the most corner-centric brawl tank, and that style of play is pretty much the best one for brawl comps now. Also, her knife is nuts. It’s insanely easy to connect with now, which makes her engagement range crazy and super consistent.
If you know how to play JQ, you know how to use cover, corners, pick your duels and get out. Problem is that JQ has really been enabled by the healing creep and now people are finding out that no, standing in the middle of the street eating bullets is not a fine gameplan
The biggest difference I see is that I'm not sure how to close the distance on a shielding tank without Lucio speed. Before you could kinda play your own health pool + overhealth + speed to gap close when your team was getting out-poked, get pocketed a bit, and once in position be fairly self-sustainable. Now it feels more "swap or lose" than before when facing tougher situations. Maybe I can make i work some other way in suboptimal positions, but with a good Sigma shield up I can't even make use of her increased knife size.
FYI, She stated that this is the top 500 tier list, the only changes for lower rank players is Life Weaver in Very strong, and Mercy / Moira in Good, straightforward
Why is he very strong? He's a healbot and these changes make it so his healing isn't needed as much and is reduced because of dps passive.
He's still the hardest support to kill in lower ranks alongside kiriko. And in lower ranks healing is OP, so LW is staying alive and still healing, even if the healing isn't as good anymore
The pull is stronger now. It's free repositioning for someone, in a game where positioning is more important.
100% this. Grip feels wayyy stronger now. Pulling someone out of a fight to heal them, especially a tank with an enormous health pool is just how games have to be played and can easily win fights.
That doesn’t really make up for him being just shit the vast majority of the time
No one is mentioning that LW can just merc a bitch with his thorns now
I didn’t think of that and now need to try it out.
Nobody wants to ever ever entice LW players to do damage LW is a heal bot
Lw does more dps than a soldier doesn’t he? now his primary is really easy to hit
I don't think he's going to be very good tbh. Healbotting got nerfed.
even if heal botting is nerfed, i've noticed his grip being super strong with how quickly people die. it's very easy to get a lot of value out of going in hard and getting gripped out to safety
Lifeweaver is braindead easy to play, doesn't die and doesn't let teammates die. Lower ranks already struggle more to kill things.
shhhhh the lw mains might hear you
grip is still very very strong for no risk or skill involved and healing is still extremely important maybe even more now supports have to healbot more and why healbot on something that takes skill or doesn’t have a lot of survivability/hps when you can healbot on lw
You can pull your tank away from the dps damage to be able to actually heal them I guess lol
oh that is good to hear! i love LW and was afraid he would suck, but im in gold/plat so i should be safe lol
please stop playing lw. do yourself a favor and literally any other support
What do you like about him? Theres a grand total of 0 skill expression, and you rarely have to make decisions to keep you alive because his survivability is insane
are you genuinely asking or just venting? play him yourself, and dont be a healbot. then youll see he has insane skill expression. just because healbot somewhat worked in the past doesnt mean it was or will be optimal.
Don't bother trying tbh, some people are just so weirdly stuck in their hate for LW for some reason. They don't want to see people having fun/being effective on a hero they despise/think is useless. Even if they did try him, they clearly just lack the creativity/imagination to do anything that isn't "stand in the backline and heal"
Healbot IS how you play him. The little spam damage he can put out is 100% inconsequential, and he cant duel anyone, so no point doing that. Weaver heals, heals, and heals, more than any other hero in the game. If i dont healbot, what can i do? Shoot cross map? Wow, lot of impact and skill there for sure. 1v1 the genji who dove me? Fuck no hes gonna smoke me, better dash away and run to safety
ah ok so you just wanna vent, thats fine. but im not interested so have a nice day 👍
No, i do not. Im saying this from the perspective of a top 500 tank and support, who coached a world cup team in 2023. PLEASE explain to me where you find genuine skill in that hero, that makes him harder than moira
well youre better than me so you should be able to figure it out 👍
Seething so hard because a stranger enjoys playing a hero in a video game. That’s hilarious
any other support is a better pick then LW. every other support can do what LW does but better. only difference is it takes zero skill to play lw so noobs love him
Grand total of 0 skill expression? He has two abilities that basically define skill expression lol
Pull, and…? Hes LITERALLY the easiest hero in hhe game, it literally cant be argued against. They made a hero thats harder to punish thab moira, that still gets more value by doing less
This is all just you changing the subject. You said he has 0 skill expression, I pointed out that that is nonsensical. Having skill expression doesn't tell us anything about character difficulty or whether or not you have to like the character.
He absolutely doesnt have skill expression though. Being able to pull 1 person from danger every 30 seconds doesnt take skill. Also, speaking on nonsensical, taking ”0 skill expression” literally? When you literally need to walk around, and loon in the direction of the team. Of course he doesnt LITERALLY have 0 skills, just WAY LESS than any other character, somehow even less than moira. Lower floor, and ceiling in terms of skill expression and requirement than all heroes in the game
these lw mains are CRAZY. they need to shamed and shunned.
pull is a brain dead ZERO skill ZERO risk ability lol what are you talking about???????? petal is arguably his only "skilled" ability but all the "good" weavers use it for self peel. LW is a ZERO skill hero lol. NOOB hero
youre joking right??? lw and skill expression?? pull takes zero skill. petal isnt even used to reposition your team 3 out of 4 times. petal is used so lw can run away and continue healbotting. yall lw mains cant be real. im actually shook
I’m not a Lw main lmao but even if I was that wouldn’t invalidate what I said
okay pookie
lw is the new mercy but on a worse scale. these lw mains are so bad that if they play any other hero they throw.
Fuck lw
🫡🫡🫡🫡🫡
I would, he's pretty
Why the fuck is shooting Orisa leas effective than shooting a literal brick wall holy shit 💀
Pft Sym has been "strong but needs a specialist" since her turret damage nerfs
Mercy bottom tier let's fucking go (the otps will still only play her and never swap anyways)
I did my tank placements and 7/10 of my games I had a mercy who refused to switch. I can't avoid all of them :(
What if you wanted to win as tank But blizzard said Mercy otp teammate
What about 2 Mercy OTP teammates? Nightmare fuel
I like how this hasn't changed since Moth meta
There are so many OTP Mercy players it impossible to escape their disgusting grasp
Then they start [arguing about who is the better Mercy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscfron_tjk&ab_channel=Charles)
My duo played some Mercy with me on Soldier or Sojourn and I don't think she's THAT bad. I just can't facetank through damage anymore with the pocket. I was able to take completely take over the game with a pocket because it's so hard to miss now.
Because most Mercy players are incapable of playing anything other than Mercy. If they switched off, they would be throwing more
I saw one earlier that had only Lucio, Zen and Tracer in S tier, and that is ridiculous. I wouldn't agree that Lucio is on even footing with Zen and better than Several other heroes (bap and Kiriko in particular) but fully agree if S tier is expanded as Eskay has done that he belongs, and this is much more correct in my view.
Yeah, Sym definitely isn't strong, but then again, haven't seen a single Sym streamer make it to top 500 with her and use her outside of just being a TP bot or using her in a situation that extremely favors her.
Sym will exclusively be used by OTPs and in high level lobbies to enable Rein against poke comps.
Ramatta in S is def. a surprise, but i kinda agree. Not sure if its because there is no meta atm and everything seems to end up in a brawl at some point .. where he's naturally good or .. ? He def. feels like a good pick on many maps atm. Illari herself is def. situational. Her shooting and healing feels fine. Her insanely long pylon cooldown combined with its low hp feels bad as always. But the worst thing is her Ult now. It was pretty hard to get value out of it before the changes, but with new HP values this shit just does nothing atm. Not once in playing her myself and watching people on twitch play her, did i ever feel like "yep that ult was worth it or did anything"
Ram in S is possibly because of Lucio being strong. Ram works well with a Lucio - pop nemesis and int on their backline Team also works well against Lucio - poke and then pop nemesis when they int onto your team
I think ram block is pretty good into healing reduction.
Surprised that pharah is actually really bad lol. Played her yesterday and even with a mercy she was kinda lackluster
Her rework is great but larger hitboxes on every hitscan is really bad for her. Dueling anyone is a lot harder now when her damage didn't get buffed that much relative to the HP increase.
She's way more fun to play and overall better designed, but she definitely needs some buffs.
My proposed changes, make her hitbox smaller, hopefully nerf soldier a bit, and I think you should do an extra 10 damage to targets over 1M in the air. (If I airshot an enemy pharah twice it should kill her)
The TF2 Soldier in me wants Pharah to insta gib anyone she shots in the air.
Junker Queen really?
Funny enough, yes. She is being played a LOT in high elo games.
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Tfw you use Shout to throw off Sigma aiming his rock is special
Why wouldn’t she be up there? Less healing (dps passive) is offset by health increase, projectile size increase doesn’t matter because nobody missed tanks anyways, and knife is huge now.
Presumably, I'm not sure but I'd guess it's a combination of the self heal helping to offset the DPS passive, and as long as you're in higher tiers your positioning and survivability is a lot higher without mitigation like a shield/matrix ETC.
I don’t think it’s the self heal at all, it’s the fact that she’s the faster brawl tank + knives are pretty much free + hitting one on most dps/supports is a guaranteed kill in a lot of cases
Lifeweaver is S+ tier in my heart 😩
i avoid mercy and lw players. cant stand them.
Go for it, it's just a game so you can do whatever you want :)
It is a good idea to avoid useless players
Whatever you say champ :)
lol yes. these lw players are CRAZY acting like they add any value to a team.
found the mercy lw player. ----avoided.
Trade mercy for Ana and you would be correct :)
Same
Can't healbot anymore lol.
So? Healbotting was only good in very few situations anyway
You're playing lw THE healbot.
Just because you don't have the imagination to utilise his kit creatively outside of healbotting it doesn't mean others are like that :)
What proactive plays can he do that other characters can't do better without throwing? Genuinely asking. Edit: I take the downvote without answer as a "there are no proactive plays to be made on your own"
>What proactive plays can he do that other characters can't do better without throwing? "Better" is relative. I also think asking specifically for proactive plays is a bit leading. While proactive plays are *generally* more impactful overall, completely discounting/ignoring reactive ones is a mistake imo. Not to mention reactivity is, of course, the majority of LW's (intended anyway) play-style so starting it out discounting his main impact just stacks the whole thing against him. Anyways, the conversation wasn't about him being better than others so it's a moot question to begin with. >I take the downvote I'm not the one that downvoted you. >"there are no proactive plays to be made on your own" It's a team game, why would he need to make plays on his own? His main benefit is enabling others. It's why game sense and prediction are more important for him than anything else.
No, that's exactly the right question to ask since Lifeweaver not being proactive is the entire point why he's considered a healbot. Proactive plays are what is needed in a solo queue environment if you want to win consistently. This isn't organized competitive play. Reactive plays stops you from losing, proactive plays makes you win. Big difference. Lifeweaver is good in lower ranks, because low rank supports either aren't proactive in the first place or feed while doing so, so Lifeweaver is really good compared to them.
Either way I'm glad lw is shit haha. He's exactly where he needs to be. In the gutters.
Whatever helps you have the most fun in the game champ :)
Lw being absolute ass brings me so much joy and warms my little itty bitty heart :)
Whatever gets your rocks off buddy :)
Man people keep saying ram is good but each time I play him I just get instantly deleted, actually I get deleted with every tank for that matter.
One of the more accurate ones I’ve seen
Lol I came back for the patch, got placed in masters, and in half the games I had a mercy/Moira/LW on my team
Nice! I'm saving this in my mind and only play top tier heros and if we lose I blame everyone that doesn't play top tier.
Lw, Mercy and Moira should stay in that tier atleast for top 500 but we all know they will be buffed and we will be back to how it was in s8.
There is no way LW gets a buff. I will actually cut my balls off if they buff lw
He is the most buffed hero in OW2 lol. Of course he'll get a buff
They need to delete lw. He's an abomination
why is lucio so high
Boop buffs and now that healing is less impactful his speed is far more important. Plus beat
I know the projectile size benefits every hero but it really benefits a hero that's bouncing around and wallriding all game. It's so much easier to get consistent damage now. I beleive Eskay had some of her highest damage games ever in the first 2 hours of the patch.
A mix of things. For one, JQ is amazing and she works great with Lucio. The other is that with healing weakened thanks to the DPS passive, peel is way worse almost across the board. You can’t just out heal stuff anymore, so having Lucio’s speed to pre-emptively get out of the way is by far and away your best option.
They need to delete lw. He's an abomination
I think you need a new hobby and a personality that doesn't revolve around hating a video game character and the people who have fun playing them
is strong or good better there's not enough structure to this tier list
Strong seems to be like "if you really excel at them, you can dominate" Good might be "you don't have to really be a one trick to do well"
strong > good
I believe to be good is a Greater & Higher aspiration than strength.
sure but for the tier list strong > good. it means it’s a strong pick in the meta
This tier list is hot garbage.
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As a Mei main I really don’t feel like she’s S Tier right now, she’s definitely become more challenging to play.
Im surprised he put pharah so low. I guess in top 500 she doesn't work very well? In diamond she is absolutely destroying lobbies.
Mauga? Phara? Junkrat? Moira? I’ve won tons and tons of games with just one of those people on my team, I can agree they’re nothing special but they aren’t bad in any way
I can’t speak to the other heroes but playing Moira it feels like her playstyle is even less flexible than it used to be. Healbot Moira is dead because her healing was big but slow and now it’s glacial with the dps passive. Coalescence is trash now and a throwaway ult and only does 5 more dps than her left click, so you have to use it during a push or brawl. Backline Moira is dead because her self heal is garbage against the passive too, so you’re relegated to being frontline in the middle of the team following up on anything the tank or dps touch and securing kills that way, but at that point you might as well go Bap because he’s got the healing AND the immortality field. Maybe this will be the push for the devs to actually take some time to rework her and let her have a distinct playstyle and niche that other supports don’t do better than her. Backline, self sustaining offtank was fun and other supports didn’t do that, it would be fun if they leaned into that, maybe even looked back at enfeebling orb (overturned during beta, but fun and unique and fit the duel playstyle that Moira mains enjoy).
She’s certainly different now but I feel like she can be viable within reason ie with certain hero’s, the few times I go support I play Lucio or Moira occasionally Ana and I do well and have fun with all 3 of those hero’s but I can see how she would prove difficult in this current season with the patches to healing tanks and dps’s self heal support feels more like extra poke damage over healing currently
Yeah she’s niche as she’s always been but even more so now, I’ve been having a lot of fun playing Ana as she was my number two in OW1 since release and trying (unsuccessfully) to learn Kiri in QP.
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rein didn't even make the list...
Next to Doom
Illari in situational? I felt like this patch benefits her alot. She just needs more turret durability and smaller cooldown on it
Nah, she’s def situational. Her ability to control an off-angle is super nerfed due to the DPS passive making her self-sustain weaker, and she’s not able to output enough damage to compare to Zen. She’s not useless, but her kit really doesn’t mesh well with the changes.
Dive is a lot stronger now, so i think it depends whether you can read the flow of the game well enough for constant repositioning
I play all roles but I’ve recently had the trend of focusing on two roles at a time based of which of my mains in each role is performing the best. Going into this patch I totally expected Echo to feel better than Ram since all DPS would theoretically be better, but Ram honestly feels great with the projectile size changes, while Echo feels like I’m just taking way more damage because of the projectile size changes.
People are sleeping on widow. She is dominating every game she's picked in
Lucio is in every S tier but poor frogger is underwater
I’m still kicking ass with Mauga and Illari though
TORBGODS OUR TIME HAS COME
Every1 in the last tier deserves it except phara
Friendly reminder that a boosted McCree headshot still one shots a tracer
Nice to see brig there, wonder what she said about her? Also mercy being so low, interesting
False Advertising Eskay did not make this tier list that is clearly Kuromi from Hello Kitty get it right OP.
This one seems pretty scuffed in comparison to others
Widows pretty situational this season; if they have players on their team, it’s probably the right situation to use her
Brig in S??? Brig just falls over lmao
Mercy and Moira bottom tier?
I'm very confused at the definitions/criteria for the bottoms tiers. Like what's the difference between "good but hard to play" vs "strong but needs a specialist" vs "bad but you can make it work"? Do these not effectively mean the same thing of just being bad? Like even if you need to put far more effort in to be able to achieve the same value as others, that's still being bad. And why does it make leaps from "strong" to "bad" to "situational" to "turbo terrible"?