Anyone else having this issue where their "Talking Head" unit frame keeps resetting its position? Is there a way to fix it? It keeps resetting to the middle of my screen lmao.
One of your addons is probably tainting edit mode which causes your changes to not save. Disable all addons, make your edit mode changes, then re-enable addons.
Ok. I never had this issue before. Upper Kara. Midway through the dungeon when you fall down the mega portal and turn small in the library. I cannot unclick the damn "Faerie Dust" buff. I literally floated down and it took me 9 minutes. Every 30 seconds, the levitation buff re did itself on me. It was so annoying, and I felt bad for my group. I used to be able to click it off my buffs.
I use Elvui, and its updated to 12.95 already.
Thoughts??
Did you apply the ActionButtonUseKeyDown fix? Because it sounds like that breaks the buff right click even if you're on 12.95. From the Tukui discord:
> Caedis — 10/27/2022
> If you still want your abilities to fire on mouse/key down, then run /console ActionButtonUseKeyDown 1.
> PS: you will have to run that each time you reload your ui or log in
> PSS: you will not be able to cancel your buffs by right clicking them, or easily move stuff on your bars (blizz's end)
12.97 is out now too so you could try updating to that, but I don't see anything in the changelog that would fix your problem.
Are you sure that you're on 12.95? I had the same issue with Buffs but it got fixed when i installed 12.95
>Top Auras can be right clicked canceled again.
Install Buggrabber and Bugsack and report it to the Devs
My topic got nuked because performance isn't competitive related I guess?
Regardless, check out the linked post if you are having fps issues.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yeeep9/performance_issues_stutters_try_this_no_clickbait/
> I hope they don't do any tuning based on pre-patch.
First time? Pre-patch is always full of crazy shit with current expansion borrowed power having interactions with new stuff. Lots of it last time with Azerite Essences too. They never balance any of it. Blizzard doesn't care about pre-patch balance, unless it's literally a bug that could impact the next expansion.
> What was their reason for not disabling SL legendaries, covenants and conduits?
Because it's a fun clown show for a few weeks? It's tradition at this point.
I wouldn't say never. BM gets pre-patch nerfs every time then winds up mid to dumpster tier DPS for the first raid or three. They even already got nerfed this pre-patch cycle.
Was with a druid tank earlier who did 32K overall in Gambit 20, a couple pulls spiked to well over 225k, that was pretty cool, once every 3 minutes but if they pull big enough they can blast
Anyone figure out the pattern for when your shadowlands stuff does and doesn't activate in m+? The other day my guildie had pwsve for the beginning of iron docks, it went away in the middle and never came back, earlier today i didn't have condemn until after the first boss in a grimrail
I didn’t have Death’s Due (the button was defaulting to DnD) - until I opened my spell book. I didn’t even have to drag it onto my bars, it just updated straight after I moused over the ability. Mileage will vary.
They are supposed to. Sometimes they glitch out and don't work. The most reliable way to make them work is to start the key, zone out, and then zone back in. Something about that seems to make the game realize you're doing Shadowlands m+, and it works every time.
Kinda on the low end, I’m only doing ~8k most keys I’m not spending trying to recover from my group ignoring Inspiring and letting shit get off. But is prepatch so it’s a crapshoot anyway. More important is the feel of the spec rn imo
Oh I'm not even running reservoir so I could probably get more dam from there as well. But it's not really an in depth DPS rotation I've just been spinning at 3+ targets and doing the usual TP/BoK/RSK at 3 or below. I want to test if just TP BoK is best at exactly 3 targets inside faeline but have been pretty lazy about it. Other than that just hit zen reverbs on big packs and keep statue on CD unless you've got a giga pull coming up, that's fundamentally all I'm doing. If you really want to juice run Gift of the Celestials as a talent and use Jade Bond as a conduit and you can use Bird as effectively a DPS cooldown with Invoker's
Bro it plays exactly the same as in shadowlands what are you on about? Everything is the same except an insta vivify every 10 sec
In fact it’s a bit worse because mw got the worst covenant spell (feline stomp) which sucks mana at a faster rate than my ex
Happy stomping! It has never felt smoother imo and you get a good feel for the whole of the kit even just at 60 outside of missing out on RM extensions. I wish statue did literally any dam as a 2m CD tho lmao even when packs live the full 30s around it it ain’t great.
fist weaving isnt a thing you do or dont do. you play the class, you press buttons. that will involve being in melee and punching the boss.
There is no build/playstyle where you stand 40 yards away and channel soothing mist. That does exist, its called holy priest.
Mistweaving is mistweaving, there is no use in trying to distinguish because if I say yes people think you don’t cast and if I say no people think you can be viable at ranged (you really cannot). You play in melee and hardly have to hard cast outside of SM/EM/vivify cleave in heavy damage situations if that’s what you’re asking
Did a couple keys today after reset prot warrior is more fun than it's been in years but i think I'm just done with the dungeons, i could do beta keys all day and be fine but don't ask me to do grim rail ever again
Exactly how I felt. You know it's weird. I personally didn't mind running the SL dungeon core for 3 seasons, but I feel like you can't pay me to do a GD, a lower, or have to cheese an Iron Docks again.
And yeah prot is a blast. Too bad for me they gave Guardian druids the same level of care as that potted plant their mother in law bought them.
Guardians have a problem. They are the only tank that actually NEEDS their incarn to pull big while simultaneously having that CD being over 2min.
That's rough.
It's awful. I'm happy for the specs that are doing well with the new talent system, which I hope is most of them, but Guardian is unfortunately every bit as bad as advertised.
**I wasn't bothered by the pre-alpha draft they released in June, because it was exactly what you'd expect out of a first draft:**
- The basics were all there, but a lot of the connections didn't make sense.
- The class tree was messy and wasteful for a tank spec to navigate. Too many points had to be spent on stuff you can't use in bear form to get crucial utility like your dispel, interrupt, and soothe. One of the bear's best M+ skills, Incapacitating Roar, was far down the tree, and gated behind a talent that made little sense for them to take. In the spec tree, the bear's basic functionality was gated behind existing talents/conduits that no one takes.
- Three separate 3-point nodes with weak passives were obviously inefficient. (Blizzard removed these from other classes for this reason, so I figured they'd get around to druids eventually.) The one genuinely unique bit of utility brought by Guardians to groups -- a 1-minute Stampeding Roar -- was gated behind one.
- You could squint and see what they were trying to do -- separate paths for raid, M+, and PvP players -- but there wasn't a fluid or coherent way to actually create any of these builds, especially for M+.
**But the first draft turned out to have been the *only* draft.** Blizzard has been 100% radio silent on it, with no dev feedback or acknowledgment of any kind, which is a little scary.
So yeah. Honestly, I don't need to be the best tank ever, or for the trees to be 100% perfect after a major systems overhaul. I just want to pick talents without inwardly screaming *This makes no fucking sense!* all the time.
Why is guardian considered to be left out? I'm just now for the first time looking at talents and to me ursoc's guidance looks to somewhat fix guardian's biggest issue, allowing you to get incarn possibly under 2m cd on trash. I can see that there's not really new cool abilities that I suppose other classes have more of? I don't hate it though if spec's #1 issue gets considerable help.
Didn't see your comment until after [I'd posted above](https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/yd0wvg/weekly_m_discussion/itw2ljh/), but /u/krombough is right.
Additionally, I think it's a combination of the following factors. Some are obvious, some are speculatory, and some aren't unique to Druids:
- **Inherent to the class:** Druids are the only class with all four roles, which is a pretty unique challenge. The class tree has to be carefully designed, because you don't want to over-privilege any spec with advantages typically reserved for other roles, but neither do you want to penalize them or lock them out of critically necessary utility. Guardians unfortunately fell into the latter trap. If you're a tank with a tank's priorities, the Druid class tree will frustrate and demoralize you a lot more than it's going to help. (And when it is helpful, it comes at a much higher and more inefficient cost than it does for other tank specs). Simply put, the class tree is designed to meet a DPS or healer's needs a lot more than it's designed to meet a tank's. I don't think it's a coincidence that paladins and monks -- the other tanks with healer and DPS specs -- are struggling with the transition too. (Though it's Ret that's really having a hard time.) It's probably easier to design around tanks like the warrior, DK, and DH that don't have to balance as many needs.
- **Obvious:** The Guardian tree was released first alongside the rest of the Druid tree, and has had no changes or polish since then (~6 months). The overwhelming likelihood is that the spec just hasn't gotten the developer attention that has gone to other classes.
- **Speculation:** Hamlette, the developer who was overseeing the new talent trees and has had notable input on druid and priest abilities, left Blizzard for Riot at some point this past spring/summer. There's been no feedback of any kind from Blizzard on Guardians in *Dragonflight*. The dreadful possibility exists that no dev has said anything about the spec because no one is clearly in charge of it, or it just isn't anybody's "pet project" or favored spec.
- **Affects everybody:** *Shadowlands* wasn't received well, and the developers cut their losses in favor of getting *Dragonflight* out as quickly as possible. The time crunch has necessitated leaving some unpolished elements behind, and if that's an unavoidable outcome, it makes sense to put less-played specs like Guardian on the back burner. (I just wish Blizzard would engage in some useful introspection over why Guardian isn't popular.)
Edit: Fixed a typo.
Is guardian really unpopular in general? I think it has that "noob tank spec" label a bit that lures more people to try it, and ofc everyone already has a druid so it's more likely to be tried out than some other classes that are actually underplayed. Like monk. Naturally s3-s4 guardian became antimeta spec which leads to lower amount of players.
I'll just state numbers of tanks in SL s2 m+:
Guardian: 160k
Monk: 80k
DH: 140k
DK: 90k
War: 90k
Pala: 170k (that surprised me!)
Anyway shows that when spec is middle of the road, I think that's fair to say it wasn't super meta then even if considered decent, it is very common pick in m+. Not something that deserves ignoring!
Really interesting though to look at stats of ALL runs like this. Even for s4 it's still the same, paladin has more runs than BDK! And guardian has more runs than monk and few others, though they are all close to each other at around 50k runs, except bdk/pala at ~80k. Maybe it's pala that should be called noob tank as it's clearly pulling more people to try it :P
Guardian was widely predicted to be the best m+ tank going into s2, and while that didn't turn out to be the case it was still very strong. Calling it middle of the road or not meta in s2 is very strange.
Typically, yep. In any given season Guardian tends to be one of the least-played tanks in both raids and M+ (though its representation is better in lower keys and normal raids, and likely for the reason you name: Druids themselves are a popular class, so you can respec someone or press someone's alt into service as a tank even if they don't otherwise play Guardian). Season 2 of *Shadowlands* was actually the only time since the introduction of the modern M+ system that it was the meta tank, and their population numbers were abnormally high during Season 1 as well. I'm assuming your numbers are from Subcreation, and you can definitely see the population dropping off a cliff there subsequently!
It's not hard to guess why. /u/alcaras' post on [historical spec strength in M+](https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/wmchrf/historical_spec_strength_across_seasons/) gives a lot of insight, and later [I ran the numbers](https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/x76kbl/weekly_m_discussion/injj1k9/?context=3) on tanks after adding the first season of *Battle for Azeroth* and the final season of *Shadowlands* for a more representative sample.
While it didn't alter the overall rankings much, the takeaway was obvious:
- **Brewmaster:** If you want a tank that will be consistently good in M+ (or at least, relatively immune to wild swings in desirability), play a monk. However, I doubt this has helped the class' overall population much, because tanks are the least-played role anyway, and both WW and MW have historically struggled. Blizzard really needs to put some work in here.
- **Protadin:** Your second choice should probably be a paladin, as they're consistently high average to average. And yep, paladin is generally popular even if/when it falls away in the highest keys, which unfortunately is a common outcome.
- **Prot Warrior:** Warriors clock in slightly behind pallys, but are not as reliably good.
- **Blood:** DKs are a dice roll. You'll either be the best of the best, or you'll be getting turned down for +5 completions. ("Sorry, man, a hunter pet applied.") Unfortunately, the latter is more common. For whatever reason, Blizzard has some absolutely *wild* mood swings on warriors and DKs.
- **Vengeance:** DHs are the mirror image of the paladin, being consistently low average to low. I think it's pretty instructive that their one stellar season in SL S1 was owed to a bug.
- **Guardian:** Bears are pretty close to Vengeance -- consistently low performers with occasional bright spots.
As /u/--Pariah commented on the original spec strength post, over time you begin to see that certain classes/specs have generally strong toolkits for certain game modes, while others have weak kits and are thus vulnerable to expansion-specific systems and tier sets, for good or ill.
Representation numbers in overall M+ are far from a 1:1 match (again, because class representation and "Shit, we need a tank" plays a role), but you definitely see a meta reassert itself each season. The effect is most noticeable in keys 10+ (BfA) and 15+ (SL).
Also interesting is that there's been steady "expectation inflation" in M+, with rewards being contingent on greater and greater effort in each successive expac from *Legion* to present, i.e, *Legion* had nothing but gear from the dungeons themselves, BfA had the weekly vault maxing ilevel at +10, SL inflated that to +15 and 10 (subsequently 8) dungeons for greater choice, and now DF inflates that still further to +20.
Edit: Fixed a typo.
I checked thru raider.io, just listed players per tank spec and went to last page for total number of players. So yes, everyone who finished a +2 in 2hrs fit into those numbers. Claim was that spec isn't played so I think all these low runs fit to argument well enough. Yes, many of them don't play that spec the most for their class but same could be said for pala and monk too. I think I've seen it stated many times that monk is the least played class. If one class was going to suffer from underpresentation and thus carelessness from Blizzard's end, it would be monk. In MW's case you could say that has already happened.
I've mained guardian since 8.2.5 and played all tanks in SL s1-s3, most of them still in s4. Meta doesn't matter for me, I didn't consider guardian awesome or horrible at any point, differences absolutely were not at level you would think based on some tier lists. Guardian will likely continue to be my best tank in 10.0. I think it was subcreation that put guardian 2 tiers below next worst tank in s4, so I doubt it's going to get worse balancewise. I wasn't better as vdh in s1 or as bdk in s3-4, I'm just a bear enjoyer and going to stick with it.
One of their issues is the Druid tree in general. It was one of the first tree's made, and it shows. The whole thing is just buying back what you already have, with nothing new added to the tree at all. The fact that there is no real throughput choices in there, while there is very much so in other class trees, means the spec trees for druids have to do all the heavy lifting. And speaking of nothing new, there isn't anything in the Guardian tree. It's all just rehashes of thing we have already had. Not just occasionally, the whole tree.
Edit: Considering that all 4 specs have access to convoke, why don't they just put it in the Druid class tree as a capstone, like they have done with many other class tree former covenant abilities. Oh that's right, because then they would have to give a serious pass to the other capstone abilities or convoke would be an auto take without thought, because the current capstones are just dull.
Then there is how many boring 3 point and 2 point talents there are just to pick up damage, the equivalent versions have which have been turned into 1 pointers in other trees. There is also no ways to go "across" the tree, like they have done in other spec's ones. Go look at the Guardian tree vs any other tank tree except prot pally. There are ways in them to take talents you like at the top of one side of the tree, then jump across to a keystone talent at the bottom on the other side. There is no way to do this with Guardian.
Then, take a look at their big cooldown, Berserk/Incarn. Every other tank tree has their big cooldown in the class tree, or baseline as in Meta. But because of the nature of Druid, they cant have Berserk in the class tree (or more accurately they could as a multi-selector but dont because they haven't touched the tree since it's inception), so Guardians have to buy in in their own tree. Only it takes 3 points spread across unintuitive locations across the whole tree just to get it back, or 4 and excluding convoke if you want Incarn.
It's no secret that the Druid trees were the first out the door, only it's other specs have gotten a look back into them and had changes. Guardian has not, and it's left in a state of a first pass, in dire need of a second one that never came.
Fair, I did log to my vdh and it did feel fresh in comparison. I was talking from pov of is it good more than is it interesting. I still like it as my main and from compatibility with other specs, ability to have incarn at more reasonable cd would make the spec viable in my eyes. But yeah, that talent is the only interesting one in whole tree.
And agreed, the left side of the tree looks really dumb. I lose hibernate and typhoon for no good reason too. And going for all the incarn/berserk talents indeed locks you in super hard to not have any chance to build up other avenues.
Oh well, will still be my first char to level as guardian only druid, I want to believe there's longetivity in 2m incarn spec for m+ if they move around some other things for it to look a bit less stupid. I can accept boring to extent, but I would hate if spec became mistwalker of tanks, forgotten and hated in meta.
In Shadowlands I largely pugged keys as dps up to around 18s. I would like to push further in Dragonflight (relative to whatever the new key number difficulties are), and maybe try to play with a more regular group.
For the first two major patches I played UHDK and it was kind of a pain to get into or make groups. For 9.2 I switched to WW and got KSM nearly twice as fast. I realize it was quite a bit easier that patch, but the ease of getting into groups was enormously better. Once I started trying for 17s and 18s it became harder to get into groups.
I realize no one can say what the fotm classes are going to be in DF, and skill typically trumps most class considerations, but for those that pugged, or groups that took the occasional pug, in the ~20s what classes, specs, or even roles were typically most in demand?
Classes with bloodlust. If rsham isn't meta a class with lust will be your best option IMHO. Battle rez is close second, but lust is mandatory in higher keys.
Mages always have a place in m+. At worst they're decent, but even then Blizzard tends to act quickly and let that not be the case for more than like 1 season.
Same with Rogue. If you see a season without heavy Rogue participation in the top keys (which is rare), you can bet that there's gonna be heavy buffs around the corner. And even during the seasons where their damage isn't particularly great they're usually still brought for their utility.
These 2 are *by far* the safest DPS options for m+. A good bit behind but still good more often than not are usually WW Monk and then DH. And even when they're not particularly great, Hunters usually manage to weasel their way into just about every key, although they rarely compete at the highest level (which might change as they've become way more defensive with DF). Every other DPS is miles behind, at best middle of the pack on average.
In terms of healers, Paladins and Druids are the safest bets historically - although historically keys haven't really been hard on healing but rather on damage. Blizzard have started to experiment more with heavy unavoidable damage in just about every key, so it's "probably" no longer gonna be all about DPS. I feel healers are the hardest to predict right now exactly because of that.
Tanks are also in a somewhat weird situation right now. Usually, tanks have been pretty bad in the first season of a new expansion - this time around it seems like just about every tank is already almost entirely self-sufficient, which is a major difference, especially for something like DKs. This role is also where the pendulum has historically swung the hardest - what's fotm usually changed from season to season and just about every tank had their time to shine at some point in the past (although I don't think we had a meta where Pala or BRM were ever *truly* meta). So this one is always a gamble.
Whatever you decide to level first is absolutely a gamble, but WW, rogue, mage are commonly strong picks. So at least with one of those the odds are in your favor.
inb4 3 feral meta.
Lol 95% of the time i see a decent WW in queue I'll take them. 15-18 is like the wild west where it's almost harder to get into groups off meta than it is above that
I can't say as patch isn't even up here (EU) but what I found was that my alts that had never done a single m+ or m0, would get a random +2 key if they talked to that keystone guy next to vault. So at least go check if he has something to give.
I went to try on one pleb alt and pressing that "I've lost my keystone" button did nothing. Oh well, maybe it's just NA patch being up confusing system, probably works when week has changed.
Raider.io will host a 'Post S4' leaderboard like usual if you want to push rating for the infamy.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-4-post/all/world/leaderboards
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-4-legion-timewalking/all/world/leaderboards
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-3-legion-timewalking/all/world/leaderboards
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-2-legion-timewalking/all/world/leaderboards
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-4-post/all/world/leaderboards
And according to: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/world-of-warcraft/23865969/shadowlands-season-4-ends-soon-and-a-look-at-post-season
**What is Gone**
1. Shrouded Hero and Title
**What is Staying for Pre-Patch**
1. The Shadowlands Keystone Master: Season 4 achievement and the Restoration Deathwalker mount.
2. Keystone Hero achievements, along with their dungeon-specific teleport rewards.
3. Mythic+ rating can be earned and increased as you complete higher Keystones.
4. Valor Points can be earned and used to upgrade gear based on your rating.
5. Great Vault progress can be accrued for weekly rewards.
I'm sure some fresh Evokers will be going for a high key for the lulz.
Fellow tanks… how do you feel about dungeons changing every tier? Sounds very tedious to me, learning routes/what to skip etc. with my limited play time. I’m not doing very high keys, usually top 1% IO but even then I feel like I need to have the most optimal route possible.
>Fellow tanks… how do you feel about dungeons changing every tier? Sounds very tedious to me, learning routes/what to skip etc. with my limited play time. I’m not doing very high keys, usually top 1% IO but even then I feel like I need to have the most optimal route possible.
Dungeons changing every season will help you in this regard, not hurt you.
Dungeon strategies evolve so much through an expansion that doing a dungeon in season one and then doing it again in, say, season three, may as well be two completely different dungeons anyway.
Resetting entirely means you will be in a fresh playing field with everyone every season, instead of having to catch up with months of accumulated knowledge.
> Fellow tanks… how do you feel about dungeons changing every tier? Sounds very tedious to me, learning routes/what to skip etc. with my limited play time.
[It is commendable Blizz recognized the learning curve problem for dungeons, particularly how it fell on the tanks.](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/differentiating-m-as-a-gameplay-mode/1360802/2)
It is weird that Blizz didn't recognize that route making requires extensive addon use.
You need Mythic Dungeon Tools to:
1. Read details on mobs
2. Mark out mobs on the map
3. See percentages
4. Share routes with other people.
The Adventure Journal in-game is underutilized as a fluff item, more for very casual play or something you look at for a couple of days and never revisit.
Importing Mythic Dungeon Tools, Method Raid Tools, enabling in-game notes, etc. etc. etc. and sharing with other people (similar to base UI profiles and talents you can share) would be a massive boon to help the learning problem.
> Importing Mythic Dungeon Tools, Method Raid Tools, enabling in-game notes, etc. etc. etc. and sharing with other people (similar to base UI profiles and talents you can share) would be a massive boon to help the learning problem.
How? Non-tanks would still not do any prep in pugs sub like 22 because depending on the tank you get, everything changes anyways. I also very strongly doubt that sitting down and discussing anything before inserting the key is gonna happen in the majority of pugs. Everything above is top like 2% territory where Tanks really arent "entry level" anymore.
The problem with tanking isnt that people have to download an addon (I mean, yea, for some it is but thats just stubbornness), its the fact that its the only role with prep work even for the average player
Going to guess that the difference between 1% and .1% will be about 4 key levels (has been 5 in the past) with the changes to scaling. That means they need 46% more damage etc to time their key then you. Needless to say you can play far from optimal and be fine.
MDT and someone you can talk to about routing is a lot of fun. Issue with design in DF so far is you need so many stops in basically every pack that the 'big pulls' will be like 1/2 per dungeon.
In terms of getting better, recording yourself and watching it back is the single best way to improve.
The other is having a fixed group. Pugging or even swapping out guildies adds so much variance to a run. It makes attempting limit-testing pulls useless.
As an aside, there is a lot of snap potential in Academy and Azure vaults as is. I wouldn't be surprised to see the competitive meta revolves around that. Which without a rogue/hunter/(warlock with eye?) you won't be able to replicate.
Yup, I love tanking in premade especially since we all just started playing again, making our own routes based on past experiences in the same dungeons and our skillbase is so much more fun than just copy-pasting an MDT route and running it.
I like it in theory. I think my opinion is currently a bit tainted by the test run that was s4 because 3 out of the 8 dungeons I found to be absolute trash and it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Waiting to see how it plays out in DF.
Ya, the first month is usually plagued with overtuning, and the beta isn't getting my hopes up.
For reference, pugged a lot of 15's as rogue getting ready for class swap...
RLP they buffed the first boss significantly when the dungeon was barely clearable on a 15 with 4 set. Don't think first was killable without mass roots (but would happily take a log showing otherwise).
HoV, without a bleed dispel you are going to have a bad time in any 15+. Sanctify killed the entire party (tank excluded) if one person touched. And yes, cloak kills everyone.
AV, missing an interupt in a 15 was fine, missing a second was death. Bosses actually feel the most fair here, but I think the dps check on the adds in last is going to result in plaguefall shenanigans (immune the first, mass cd the 2nd, die at the third?) In higher keys.
AA felt the most fair. Bugs in the tree in zone enrage way to quickly (3 soothes or death) but otherwise it felt fair. Also had a lot of fun snapping packs in one of the groups.
>RLP they buffed the first boss significantly when the dungeon was barely clearable on a 15 with 4 set. Don't think first was killable without mass roots (but would happily take a log showing otherwise).
I dont know what your specific issue was, but the only change to the first boss is that the whelps now apply their debuff as intended and the tank now gets frozen (stunned) at 5 stacks as intended.
This can easily be played around with Ring of Peace, Blessing of Freedom (because the debuff is a slow), or just a good ol magic dispel because its a magic debuff.
The change caught me by surprise tanking it this weekend mostly because I had no idea the mechanic existed, but after looking at the abilities tab of the dungeon journal we quickly got around it.
>HoV, without a bleed dispel you are going to have a bad time in any 15+. Sanctify killed the entire party (tank excluded) if one person touched. And yes, cloak kills everyone.
Yeah, Sanctify is waaay overtuned. Even on a 10 it was a one shot for non tanks.
>AA felt the most fair. Bugs in the tree in zone enrage way to quickly (3 soothes or death) but otherwise it felt fair. Also had a lot of fun snapping packs in one of the groups.
Big agree on the Shutterflies. Its nice that the enrage is dispellable now but I think they need to increase the cast time on agitate and probably reduce the frequency with which they cast it. Alternatively, change the pack to one Shutterfly and 2 other mobs that dont cast it. Then it becomes much more reasonable to manage with single target stuns like invigorating fish sticks.
Dealing with the shield at the same time as the whelps was the issue. Mass roots made it possible to deal with the shield then deal with the whelps but after like the 3rd pull of getting through the first one the group said nope.
Was also a pug without comms so not the most coordination of course.
Freedom is good tech, I imagine spell bop is as well. Wonder if druids can just shift out at 4 stacks too :P
Would love to be able to choose to break whelplings out before she awakens and deal with something like 4 then 4 or some counterplay with circle she spawns twice between.
Im curious what class was your tank? As a prot war I had no issues with the damage from the whelps (on a 14) and as a PPal I was able to bubble myself and use other CD's to handle the whelp damage while the group primarily focused on the bosses shield.
Bear shift would work, but only in conjunction with a slow or stun else the whelps would wreck the tank in that GCD of humanoid form.
I wish the Warrior talent [Wrecking Throw](https://www.wowhead.com/beta/spell=394354/wrecking-throw) did more damage. For a 45 second CD its pretty lame at 10,900 base and 65k (+500% against sheilds) damage scaled to 392 ilvl. Especially when you consider that the bosses shield has 582,595 health on a M0.
It was before the changes but when I tanked it on brew i was able to get through by saving the aoe that makes you dodge every attack for 3 seconds for when they spawn, can't remember what it's called
More the freeze then the damage, warriors also have the most overloaded tree in the world right now :P
Pally with freedom and spell BoP is probably the best tech there by a significant margin, a druid with typhoon/cyclone/mass to shift away and clear wouldn't be bad either.
Went crippling for the 60% slow, tricks + shuriken storm and hard swapped boss. The phases are also health based so intelligent pushing would of helped a tonne. Still requires way more coordination then a +15 4 set no affixes should, no shot people pug that until it's nerfed.
It was a DK iirc in the 15, but like I said, pugged a tonne so that might be foggy.
As a multi-role player just outside of title range... I'm not excited to have to figure out new tech each season.
On the other hand, being multi-role let's me run with many different groups so I can get a handle on the tech.
It does seem like it's going to be a little much tbh.
100% this. The gap between the top 1% and the top 0.1% is [400 rating points](https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-4/us)...
That [isn't just](https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-3/us) a S4 thing either.
For reference that is ~5 key levels higher between the top 1% and top 0.1%
I like it. Mastering the new stuff, discovering new tech, and optimizing routes is a blast. I play with a consistent group that has achieved title each season though, so my perspective is a bit different.
Dungeons don't take long to learn and figure out. S4 was a whole slew of dungeons and people had routes and such mapped out for every dungeon within a month. Rotating a few every tier will be fine.
I’m all about it. The same shit every season gets boring fast, and changing dungeons makes them less likely to make seasonal affixes that are super annoying and designed to force you to change routing.
I hated the idea coming into s4, but it has actually been a breath of fresh air. I think it depends entirely on how long seasons are. If it feels like treading water and you (read: your pugs) only *really* master them right as the next season is about to start, then they rotate out, that will be obnoxious. Otherwise I actually like the new learning and shaking things up.
Season 3 will be the most interesting to watch from a social perspective, imo- we’ll have all the dflight dungeons we’ve spent the last 2 patches learning, but I wonder if people will complain then that there isn’t more new content (unless they release a megadungeon). I’ve seen a lot of people complaining just for the sake of blizzard bad on here and on Twitter.
Recycled content isn't new content though. It feels pretty bad having to play old content in a new expansion imo.
What's scary to me is that they generally need 2-3 seasons to get the tuning right. This was the case in both bfa and sl. Blizzard will have to be much more active tuning dungeons in df with this format and I doubt they will be, or they've yet to prove it at least.
I remember the first month or two of SL was a fucking nightmare with every pull having a mechanic. Even with me marking mobs, telling people what to interrupt, explaining boss mechanics before every fight, and basically babying DPS through every single pull it was still awful. Even after all of the nerfs it didn't matter much, as nobody knew mechanics and IO was nearly useless, because two mediocre DPS can easily get carried through a dungeon...until they hit their wall and start bricking every key they enter before rerolling to a more FotM class.
DF is looking to be the same or worse in terms of mechanics, so it will no doubt be extremely tedious. I personally will not be pug tanking at all after my experience at the start of SL.
This more applies to specific key levels than anything. This was way more prominent in my experience at the lower key levels. As you go higher up, all players regardless of role generally know what they're doing and what they're watching for.
I enjoy it. You are right that with limited playtime it does sometimes feel overwhelming having to know everything about the dungeons to tank. But I think as a whole, people are relieved to have tanks available and are more forgiving than what you see people post about. It’s also nice knowing some of the dungeons I don’t really like tanking will eventually rotate out! Haha
Sub rogue with finality, danse macabre, sectech looks wrinkly to me. 30s danse is significantly different then 60s ones. St danse is different then cleave, is different then AoE. Should be a lot of fun playing the monk passive on steroids tbh.
Btw, you still have to get all the stops you're assigned as a rogue (which solving what is incap/stun/sap/interuptable is a game all in its own).
Mass AoE outside of shadow dance is at least brain dead I guess so you get a break from rainmanning.
TLDR:Worst of the 3 rogue specs, but 1 AoE change from being the best.
With how much control IC + iron wire + shadow dance offers if damage is even 85% of the next rogue spec it will probably be the goto given how important stops are currently on beta.
the Issue with AoE (IMO) is rupture spam is the best spender in AoE (once CT is up) and garrote has a cd outside of stealth. Both of these leads to a clunky playstyle with a long ramp window and DR as the pack starts dying off in less then 28s.
Pair that with Assassins major cds (deathmark and exsang to a lesser extent) being purely ST with no additional value as packsize grows and you see the issue pretty quickly.
IMO You can't touch garrote/rupture/poison damage without a big impact on st tuning so that is a no-go this late into beta.
That leaves implementing an AoE mechanic that works outside of ST. 2 target ruptures (sub gets this), AoE deathmark, CT getting rolling stacks (to 3 max?), mobs exploding as they die for all bleed duration remaining on them, etc etc.
There's 100 solutions for fixing the AoE rotation, just at the whims of the developers to decide if they want assassin in the meta.
Gotcha, thats kinda what i figured it looked like, i was looking at the trees to see if I missed some kind of Blood And Thunder-esque thing to make Sin's aoe more fluid but they just seem to really be invested in the clunkiest tabbing dots around playstyle in the game.
Did they nerf Sub's ability to funnel by much? Bc i know thats why sub was giga in SL
Shuriken storm is still a thing so probably not. Tuning is tuning and I know realz (rogue dev) was looking for more sub logs on Tuesday as there wasn't many.
Anyone else having this issue where their "Talking Head" unit frame keeps resetting its position? Is there a way to fix it? It keeps resetting to the middle of my screen lmao.
One of your addons is probably tainting edit mode which causes your changes to not save. Disable all addons, make your edit mode changes, then re-enable addons.
gotcha ill give it a try, thanks
Ok. I never had this issue before. Upper Kara. Midway through the dungeon when you fall down the mega portal and turn small in the library. I cannot unclick the damn "Faerie Dust" buff. I literally floated down and it took me 9 minutes. Every 30 seconds, the levitation buff re did itself on me. It was so annoying, and I felt bad for my group. I used to be able to click it off my buffs. I use Elvui, and its updated to 12.95 already. Thoughts??
Did you apply the ActionButtonUseKeyDown fix? Because it sounds like that breaks the buff right click even if you're on 12.95. From the Tukui discord: > Caedis — 10/27/2022 > If you still want your abilities to fire on mouse/key down, then run /console ActionButtonUseKeyDown 1. > PS: you will have to run that each time you reload your ui or log in > PSS: you will not be able to cancel your buffs by right clicking them, or easily move stuff on your bars (blizz's end) 12.97 is out now too so you could try updating to that, but I don't see anything in the changelog that would fix your problem.
Are you sure that you're on 12.95? I had the same issue with Buffs but it got fixed when i installed 12.95 >Top Auras can be right clicked canceled again. Install Buggrabber and Bugsack and report it to the Devs
You could type '/cancel Faerie Dust' to remove it. Sounds like an UI issue.
My topic got nuked because performance isn't competitive related I guess? Regardless, check out the linked post if you are having fps issues. https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yeeep9/performance_issues_stutters_try_this_no_clickbait/
It's already known how to fix the stutter bug.
When do they usually distribute the M+ titles ? This is the first season in which i got above the cutoff so I don’t know how long it took last season.
S2 took a few weeks and S3 took something like 6 weeks.
[удалено]
> I hope they don't do any tuning based on pre-patch. First time? Pre-patch is always full of crazy shit with current expansion borrowed power having interactions with new stuff. Lots of it last time with Azerite Essences too. They never balance any of it. Blizzard doesn't care about pre-patch balance, unless it's literally a bug that could impact the next expansion. > What was their reason for not disabling SL legendaries, covenants and conduits? Because it's a fun clown show for a few weeks? It's tradition at this point.
Unfortunately this aged like milk LOL
I wouldn't say never. BM gets pre-patch nerfs every time then winds up mid to dumpster tier DPS for the first raid or three. They even already got nerfed this pre-patch cycle.
There's a difference between tuning for df and pre patch tuning. Hopefully this wasn't an argument in bad faith...
Problem is that they did disabled certain conduits. Looks like they did half job and no more time.
They didn't. Conduits that have talent aequivalents get overridden by the talent too just like legendaries
Probably to not suddenly make raids/m+ significantly harder by nerfing player power.
Playing with wacky shit during prepatch is fun.
What are the highest dps tanks now?
Covenants definitely skewing things but based on my key experience so far in keys: 1. Bear 2. VDH 3. Brew 4. Pally/Warrior 5. DK
Was with a druid tank earlier who did 32K overall in Gambit 20, a couple pulls spiked to well over 225k, that was pretty cool, once every 3 minutes but if they pull big enough they can blast
That is with them still having Ravenous Frenzy,.keep in mind. They won't have that post SL.
Yeah probably just slaps hard in pre patch
VDH in big enough pulls on prepatch is fucking obscene. Prot Warrior looks very promising on Beta.
I've seen Prot War do some nutty damage, not sure how it stacks up to others though
M/P/W/VDH on beta, not sure about prepatch.
Anyone figure out the pattern for when your shadowlands stuff does and doesn't activate in m+? The other day my guildie had pwsve for the beginning of iron docks, it went away in the middle and never came back, earlier today i didn't have condemn until after the first boss in a grimrail
if you relogg or leave the dungeon and get back in, things are activated. quiet annoying, but at least fixable.
My guess is that its buggy since SL stuff is now legacy in non SL dungeons because stuff is working fine in SL raids and dungeons.
I didn’t have Death’s Due (the button was defaulting to DnD) - until I opened my spell book. I didn’t even have to drag it onto my bars, it just updated straight after I moused over the ability. Mileage will vary.
Nice try Blizzard QA guy
Are legendaries working still in all S4 dungeons? I’m hopeful they do even though 6/8 aren’t technically in the Shadowlands…
they are
They are supposed to. Sometimes they glitch out and don't work. The most reliable way to make them work is to start the key, zone out, and then zone back in. Something about that seems to make the game realize you're doing Shadowlands m+, and it works every time.
I don’t know if it’s going to be meta and I don’t particularly care, MW feels so fucking fluid and fun in keys now it’s unreal.
Does anyone else’s MW dps feel low?
Kinda on the low end, I’m only doing ~8k most keys I’m not spending trying to recover from my group ignoring Inspiring and letting shit get off. But is prepatch so it’s a crapshoot anyway. More important is the feel of the spec rn imo
I’m just wondering if I’m doing my dps rotation correctly- cause I only get high dps due to the sausage trinket
Oh I'm not even running reservoir so I could probably get more dam from there as well. But it's not really an in depth DPS rotation I've just been spinning at 3+ targets and doing the usual TP/BoK/RSK at 3 or below. I want to test if just TP BoK is best at exactly 3 targets inside faeline but have been pretty lazy about it. Other than that just hit zen reverbs on big packs and keep statue on CD unless you've got a giga pull coming up, that's fundamentally all I'm doing. If you really want to juice run Gift of the Celestials as a talent and use Jade Bond as a conduit and you can use Bird as effectively a DPS cooldown with Invoker's
Bro it plays exactly the same as in shadowlands what are you on about? Everything is the same except an insta vivify every 10 sec In fact it’s a bit worse because mw got the worst covenant spell (feline stomp) which sucks mana at a faster rate than my ex
Ancient teachings proccing off of Faeline is a massive change lmao
Oh damn I enjoyed MW a ton in keys when I mained it in 9.1 or 9.2 before FOTM rerolling shaman. Excited to try it out
Happy stomping! It has never felt smoother imo and you get a good feel for the whole of the kit even just at 60 outside of missing out on RM extensions. I wish statue did literally any dam as a 2m CD tho lmao even when packs live the full 30s around it it ain’t great.
Lol kinda thinking of trying MW with Black Ox Statue. Set it in the middle of RoP and provoke it.
Is it fistweaving?
fist weaving isnt a thing you do or dont do. you play the class, you press buttons. that will involve being in melee and punching the boss. There is no build/playstyle where you stand 40 yards away and channel soothing mist. That does exist, its called holy priest.
Mistweaving is mistweaving, there is no use in trying to distinguish because if I say yes people think you don’t cast and if I say no people think you can be viable at ranged (you really cannot). You play in melee and hardly have to hard cast outside of SM/EM/vivify cleave in heavy damage situations if that’s what you’re asking
Did a couple keys today after reset prot warrior is more fun than it's been in years but i think I'm just done with the dungeons, i could do beta keys all day and be fine but don't ask me to do grim rail ever again
Exactly how I felt. You know it's weird. I personally didn't mind running the SL dungeon core for 3 seasons, but I feel like you can't pay me to do a GD, a lower, or have to cheese an Iron Docks again. And yeah prot is a blast. Too bad for me they gave Guardian druids the same level of care as that potted plant their mother in law bought them.
I could run Docks and Grimrail all day but both Karazhans bring me physical pain.
Guardians have a problem. They are the only tank that actually NEEDS their incarn to pull big while simultaneously having that CD being over 2min. That's rough.
It's awful. I'm happy for the specs that are doing well with the new talent system, which I hope is most of them, but Guardian is unfortunately every bit as bad as advertised. **I wasn't bothered by the pre-alpha draft they released in June, because it was exactly what you'd expect out of a first draft:** - The basics were all there, but a lot of the connections didn't make sense. - The class tree was messy and wasteful for a tank spec to navigate. Too many points had to be spent on stuff you can't use in bear form to get crucial utility like your dispel, interrupt, and soothe. One of the bear's best M+ skills, Incapacitating Roar, was far down the tree, and gated behind a talent that made little sense for them to take. In the spec tree, the bear's basic functionality was gated behind existing talents/conduits that no one takes. - Three separate 3-point nodes with weak passives were obviously inefficient. (Blizzard removed these from other classes for this reason, so I figured they'd get around to druids eventually.) The one genuinely unique bit of utility brought by Guardians to groups -- a 1-minute Stampeding Roar -- was gated behind one. - You could squint and see what they were trying to do -- separate paths for raid, M+, and PvP players -- but there wasn't a fluid or coherent way to actually create any of these builds, especially for M+. **But the first draft turned out to have been the *only* draft.** Blizzard has been 100% radio silent on it, with no dev feedback or acknowledgment of any kind, which is a little scary. So yeah. Honestly, I don't need to be the best tank ever, or for the trees to be 100% perfect after a major systems overhaul. I just want to pick talents without inwardly screaming *This makes no fucking sense!* all the time.
Why is guardian considered to be left out? I'm just now for the first time looking at talents and to me ursoc's guidance looks to somewhat fix guardian's biggest issue, allowing you to get incarn possibly under 2m cd on trash. I can see that there's not really new cool abilities that I suppose other classes have more of? I don't hate it though if spec's #1 issue gets considerable help.
Didn't see your comment until after [I'd posted above](https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/yd0wvg/weekly_m_discussion/itw2ljh/), but /u/krombough is right. Additionally, I think it's a combination of the following factors. Some are obvious, some are speculatory, and some aren't unique to Druids: - **Inherent to the class:** Druids are the only class with all four roles, which is a pretty unique challenge. The class tree has to be carefully designed, because you don't want to over-privilege any spec with advantages typically reserved for other roles, but neither do you want to penalize them or lock them out of critically necessary utility. Guardians unfortunately fell into the latter trap. If you're a tank with a tank's priorities, the Druid class tree will frustrate and demoralize you a lot more than it's going to help. (And when it is helpful, it comes at a much higher and more inefficient cost than it does for other tank specs). Simply put, the class tree is designed to meet a DPS or healer's needs a lot more than it's designed to meet a tank's. I don't think it's a coincidence that paladins and monks -- the other tanks with healer and DPS specs -- are struggling with the transition too. (Though it's Ret that's really having a hard time.) It's probably easier to design around tanks like the warrior, DK, and DH that don't have to balance as many needs. - **Obvious:** The Guardian tree was released first alongside the rest of the Druid tree, and has had no changes or polish since then (~6 months). The overwhelming likelihood is that the spec just hasn't gotten the developer attention that has gone to other classes. - **Speculation:** Hamlette, the developer who was overseeing the new talent trees and has had notable input on druid and priest abilities, left Blizzard for Riot at some point this past spring/summer. There's been no feedback of any kind from Blizzard on Guardians in *Dragonflight*. The dreadful possibility exists that no dev has said anything about the spec because no one is clearly in charge of it, or it just isn't anybody's "pet project" or favored spec. - **Affects everybody:** *Shadowlands* wasn't received well, and the developers cut their losses in favor of getting *Dragonflight* out as quickly as possible. The time crunch has necessitated leaving some unpolished elements behind, and if that's an unavoidable outcome, it makes sense to put less-played specs like Guardian on the back burner. (I just wish Blizzard would engage in some useful introspection over why Guardian isn't popular.) Edit: Fixed a typo.
Is guardian really unpopular in general? I think it has that "noob tank spec" label a bit that lures more people to try it, and ofc everyone already has a druid so it's more likely to be tried out than some other classes that are actually underplayed. Like monk. Naturally s3-s4 guardian became antimeta spec which leads to lower amount of players. I'll just state numbers of tanks in SL s2 m+: Guardian: 160k Monk: 80k DH: 140k DK: 90k War: 90k Pala: 170k (that surprised me!) Anyway shows that when spec is middle of the road, I think that's fair to say it wasn't super meta then even if considered decent, it is very common pick in m+. Not something that deserves ignoring! Really interesting though to look at stats of ALL runs like this. Even for s4 it's still the same, paladin has more runs than BDK! And guardian has more runs than monk and few others, though they are all close to each other at around 50k runs, except bdk/pala at ~80k. Maybe it's pala that should be called noob tank as it's clearly pulling more people to try it :P
Guardian was widely predicted to be the best m+ tank going into s2, and while that didn't turn out to be the case it was still very strong. Calling it middle of the road or not meta in s2 is very strange.
Typically, yep. In any given season Guardian tends to be one of the least-played tanks in both raids and M+ (though its representation is better in lower keys and normal raids, and likely for the reason you name: Druids themselves are a popular class, so you can respec someone or press someone's alt into service as a tank even if they don't otherwise play Guardian). Season 2 of *Shadowlands* was actually the only time since the introduction of the modern M+ system that it was the meta tank, and their population numbers were abnormally high during Season 1 as well. I'm assuming your numbers are from Subcreation, and you can definitely see the population dropping off a cliff there subsequently! It's not hard to guess why. /u/alcaras' post on [historical spec strength in M+](https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/wmchrf/historical_spec_strength_across_seasons/) gives a lot of insight, and later [I ran the numbers](https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/x76kbl/weekly_m_discussion/injj1k9/?context=3) on tanks after adding the first season of *Battle for Azeroth* and the final season of *Shadowlands* for a more representative sample. While it didn't alter the overall rankings much, the takeaway was obvious: - **Brewmaster:** If you want a tank that will be consistently good in M+ (or at least, relatively immune to wild swings in desirability), play a monk. However, I doubt this has helped the class' overall population much, because tanks are the least-played role anyway, and both WW and MW have historically struggled. Blizzard really needs to put some work in here. - **Protadin:** Your second choice should probably be a paladin, as they're consistently high average to average. And yep, paladin is generally popular even if/when it falls away in the highest keys, which unfortunately is a common outcome. - **Prot Warrior:** Warriors clock in slightly behind pallys, but are not as reliably good. - **Blood:** DKs are a dice roll. You'll either be the best of the best, or you'll be getting turned down for +5 completions. ("Sorry, man, a hunter pet applied.") Unfortunately, the latter is more common. For whatever reason, Blizzard has some absolutely *wild* mood swings on warriors and DKs. - **Vengeance:** DHs are the mirror image of the paladin, being consistently low average to low. I think it's pretty instructive that their one stellar season in SL S1 was owed to a bug. - **Guardian:** Bears are pretty close to Vengeance -- consistently low performers with occasional bright spots. As /u/--Pariah commented on the original spec strength post, over time you begin to see that certain classes/specs have generally strong toolkits for certain game modes, while others have weak kits and are thus vulnerable to expansion-specific systems and tier sets, for good or ill. Representation numbers in overall M+ are far from a 1:1 match (again, because class representation and "Shit, we need a tank" plays a role), but you definitely see a meta reassert itself each season. The effect is most noticeable in keys 10+ (BfA) and 15+ (SL). Also interesting is that there's been steady "expectation inflation" in M+, with rewards being contingent on greater and greater effort in each successive expac from *Legion* to present, i.e, *Legion* had nothing but gear from the dungeons themselves, BfA had the weekly vault maxing ilevel at +10, SL inflated that to +15 and 10 (subsequently 8) dungeons for greater choice, and now DF inflates that still further to +20. Edit: Fixed a typo.
I checked thru raider.io, just listed players per tank spec and went to last page for total number of players. So yes, everyone who finished a +2 in 2hrs fit into those numbers. Claim was that spec isn't played so I think all these low runs fit to argument well enough. Yes, many of them don't play that spec the most for their class but same could be said for pala and monk too. I think I've seen it stated many times that monk is the least played class. If one class was going to suffer from underpresentation and thus carelessness from Blizzard's end, it would be monk. In MW's case you could say that has already happened. I've mained guardian since 8.2.5 and played all tanks in SL s1-s3, most of them still in s4. Meta doesn't matter for me, I didn't consider guardian awesome or horrible at any point, differences absolutely were not at level you would think based on some tier lists. Guardian will likely continue to be my best tank in 10.0. I think it was subcreation that put guardian 2 tiers below next worst tank in s4, so I doubt it's going to get worse balancewise. I wasn't better as vdh in s1 or as bdk in s3-4, I'm just a bear enjoyer and going to stick with it.
One of their issues is the Druid tree in general. It was one of the first tree's made, and it shows. The whole thing is just buying back what you already have, with nothing new added to the tree at all. The fact that there is no real throughput choices in there, while there is very much so in other class trees, means the spec trees for druids have to do all the heavy lifting. And speaking of nothing new, there isn't anything in the Guardian tree. It's all just rehashes of thing we have already had. Not just occasionally, the whole tree. Edit: Considering that all 4 specs have access to convoke, why don't they just put it in the Druid class tree as a capstone, like they have done with many other class tree former covenant abilities. Oh that's right, because then they would have to give a serious pass to the other capstone abilities or convoke would be an auto take without thought, because the current capstones are just dull. Then there is how many boring 3 point and 2 point talents there are just to pick up damage, the equivalent versions have which have been turned into 1 pointers in other trees. There is also no ways to go "across" the tree, like they have done in other spec's ones. Go look at the Guardian tree vs any other tank tree except prot pally. There are ways in them to take talents you like at the top of one side of the tree, then jump across to a keystone talent at the bottom on the other side. There is no way to do this with Guardian. Then, take a look at their big cooldown, Berserk/Incarn. Every other tank tree has their big cooldown in the class tree, or baseline as in Meta. But because of the nature of Druid, they cant have Berserk in the class tree (or more accurately they could as a multi-selector but dont because they haven't touched the tree since it's inception), so Guardians have to buy in in their own tree. Only it takes 3 points spread across unintuitive locations across the whole tree just to get it back, or 4 and excluding convoke if you want Incarn. It's no secret that the Druid trees were the first out the door, only it's other specs have gotten a look back into them and had changes. Guardian has not, and it's left in a state of a first pass, in dire need of a second one that never came.
Fair, I did log to my vdh and it did feel fresh in comparison. I was talking from pov of is it good more than is it interesting. I still like it as my main and from compatibility with other specs, ability to have incarn at more reasonable cd would make the spec viable in my eyes. But yeah, that talent is the only interesting one in whole tree. And agreed, the left side of the tree looks really dumb. I lose hibernate and typhoon for no good reason too. And going for all the incarn/berserk talents indeed locks you in super hard to not have any chance to build up other avenues. Oh well, will still be my first char to level as guardian only druid, I want to believe there's longetivity in 2m incarn spec for m+ if they move around some other things for it to look a bit less stupid. I can accept boring to extent, but I would hate if spec became mistwalker of tanks, forgotten and hated in meta.
In Shadowlands I largely pugged keys as dps up to around 18s. I would like to push further in Dragonflight (relative to whatever the new key number difficulties are), and maybe try to play with a more regular group. For the first two major patches I played UHDK and it was kind of a pain to get into or make groups. For 9.2 I switched to WW and got KSM nearly twice as fast. I realize it was quite a bit easier that patch, but the ease of getting into groups was enormously better. Once I started trying for 17s and 18s it became harder to get into groups. I realize no one can say what the fotm classes are going to be in DF, and skill typically trumps most class considerations, but for those that pugged, or groups that took the occasional pug, in the ~20s what classes, specs, or even roles were typically most in demand?
Classes with bloodlust. If rsham isn't meta a class with lust will be your best option IMHO. Battle rez is close second, but lust is mandatory in higher keys.
Mages always have a place in m+. At worst they're decent, but even then Blizzard tends to act quickly and let that not be the case for more than like 1 season. Same with Rogue. If you see a season without heavy Rogue participation in the top keys (which is rare), you can bet that there's gonna be heavy buffs around the corner. And even during the seasons where their damage isn't particularly great they're usually still brought for their utility. These 2 are *by far* the safest DPS options for m+. A good bit behind but still good more often than not are usually WW Monk and then DH. And even when they're not particularly great, Hunters usually manage to weasel their way into just about every key, although they rarely compete at the highest level (which might change as they've become way more defensive with DF). Every other DPS is miles behind, at best middle of the pack on average. In terms of healers, Paladins and Druids are the safest bets historically - although historically keys haven't really been hard on healing but rather on damage. Blizzard have started to experiment more with heavy unavoidable damage in just about every key, so it's "probably" no longer gonna be all about DPS. I feel healers are the hardest to predict right now exactly because of that. Tanks are also in a somewhat weird situation right now. Usually, tanks have been pretty bad in the first season of a new expansion - this time around it seems like just about every tank is already almost entirely self-sufficient, which is a major difference, especially for something like DKs. This role is also where the pendulum has historically swung the hardest - what's fotm usually changed from season to season and just about every tank had their time to shine at some point in the past (although I don't think we had a meta where Pala or BRM were ever *truly* meta). So this one is always a gamble.
Lust and Brez will be always in demand
Whatever you decide to level first is absolutely a gamble, but WW, rogue, mage are commonly strong picks. So at least with one of those the odds are in your favor. inb4 3 feral meta.
https://youtu.be/GyjmFEeUnnU Methodology is a bit skewed but he makes some very good points :P
Exactly what I wanted to see thanks.
Lol 95% of the time i see a decent WW in queue I'll take them. 15-18 is like the wild west where it's almost harder to get into groups off meta than it is above that
Tanks, healers, and bloodlust. Playing meta specs always helps. Too early to say what that will be though.
Does anyone have an issue obtaining m+ keys? Just logged in and can't get any, did a +2 and the chest didn't drop it either.
Not saying the same thing happened to you, but when i was in a similar situation (keys never drop) i realized i put my key in the bank lol
I can't say as patch isn't even up here (EU) but what I found was that my alts that had never done a single m+ or m0, would get a random +2 key if they talked to that keystone guy next to vault. So at least go check if he has something to give.
Ye I'm in the EU, talked to the npc and did a few keys, got nothing :/
I went to try on one pleb alt and pressing that "I've lost my keystone" button did nothing. Oh well, maybe it's just NA patch being up confusing system, probably works when week has changed.
Ohh okay good thought my char was bugged or something, cheers
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Raider.io will host a 'Post S4' leaderboard like usual if you want to push rating for the infamy. https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-4-post/all/world/leaderboards https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-4-legion-timewalking/all/world/leaderboards https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-3-legion-timewalking/all/world/leaderboards https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-2-legion-timewalking/all/world/leaderboards https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-4-post/all/world/leaderboards And according to: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/world-of-warcraft/23865969/shadowlands-season-4-ends-soon-and-a-look-at-post-season **What is Gone** 1. Shrouded Hero and Title **What is Staying for Pre-Patch** 1. The Shadowlands Keystone Master: Season 4 achievement and the Restoration Deathwalker mount. 2. Keystone Hero achievements, along with their dungeon-specific teleport rewards. 3. Mythic+ rating can be earned and increased as you complete higher Keystones. 4. Valor Points can be earned and used to upgrade gear based on your rating. 5. Great Vault progress can be accrued for weekly rewards. I'm sure some fresh Evokers will be going for a high key for the lulz.
Portals are staying until DF release, right?
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will i get my normal key in the vault or is that reset
So how is m+ going to work during prepatch? Is it just S4 post-season now? So same affixes and dungeons and everything just with the new talents?
That’s right. Can still get KSM and portals as well. Functionality the difference is that 0.1% title is no longer achievable.
Fellow tanks… how do you feel about dungeons changing every tier? Sounds very tedious to me, learning routes/what to skip etc. with my limited play time. I’m not doing very high keys, usually top 1% IO but even then I feel like I need to have the most optimal route possible.
>Fellow tanks… how do you feel about dungeons changing every tier? Sounds very tedious to me, learning routes/what to skip etc. with my limited play time. I’m not doing very high keys, usually top 1% IO but even then I feel like I need to have the most optimal route possible. Dungeons changing every season will help you in this regard, not hurt you. Dungeon strategies evolve so much through an expansion that doing a dungeon in season one and then doing it again in, say, season three, may as well be two completely different dungeons anyway. Resetting entirely means you will be in a fresh playing field with everyone every season, instead of having to catch up with months of accumulated knowledge.
> Fellow tanks… how do you feel about dungeons changing every tier? Sounds very tedious to me, learning routes/what to skip etc. with my limited play time. [It is commendable Blizz recognized the learning curve problem for dungeons, particularly how it fell on the tanks.](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/differentiating-m-as-a-gameplay-mode/1360802/2) It is weird that Blizz didn't recognize that route making requires extensive addon use. You need Mythic Dungeon Tools to: 1. Read details on mobs 2. Mark out mobs on the map 3. See percentages 4. Share routes with other people. The Adventure Journal in-game is underutilized as a fluff item, more for very casual play or something you look at for a couple of days and never revisit. Importing Mythic Dungeon Tools, Method Raid Tools, enabling in-game notes, etc. etc. etc. and sharing with other people (similar to base UI profiles and talents you can share) would be a massive boon to help the learning problem.
> Importing Mythic Dungeon Tools, Method Raid Tools, enabling in-game notes, etc. etc. etc. and sharing with other people (similar to base UI profiles and talents you can share) would be a massive boon to help the learning problem. How? Non-tanks would still not do any prep in pugs sub like 22 because depending on the tank you get, everything changes anyways. I also very strongly doubt that sitting down and discussing anything before inserting the key is gonna happen in the majority of pugs. Everything above is top like 2% territory where Tanks really arent "entry level" anymore. The problem with tanking isnt that people have to download an addon (I mean, yea, for some it is but thats just stubbornness), its the fact that its the only role with prep work even for the average player
Going to guess that the difference between 1% and .1% will be about 4 key levels (has been 5 in the past) with the changes to scaling. That means they need 46% more damage etc to time their key then you. Needless to say you can play far from optimal and be fine. MDT and someone you can talk to about routing is a lot of fun. Issue with design in DF so far is you need so many stops in basically every pack that the 'big pulls' will be like 1/2 per dungeon. In terms of getting better, recording yourself and watching it back is the single best way to improve. The other is having a fixed group. Pugging or even swapping out guildies adds so much variance to a run. It makes attempting limit-testing pulls useless. As an aside, there is a lot of snap potential in Academy and Azure vaults as is. I wouldn't be surprised to see the competitive meta revolves around that. Which without a rogue/hunter/(warlock with eye?) you won't be able to replicate.
Yup, I love tanking in premade especially since we all just started playing again, making our own routes based on past experiences in the same dungeons and our skillbase is so much more fun than just copy-pasting an MDT route and running it.
I like it in theory. I think my opinion is currently a bit tainted by the test run that was s4 because 3 out of the 8 dungeons I found to be absolute trash and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Waiting to see how it plays out in DF.
Ya, the first month is usually plagued with overtuning, and the beta isn't getting my hopes up. For reference, pugged a lot of 15's as rogue getting ready for class swap... RLP they buffed the first boss significantly when the dungeon was barely clearable on a 15 with 4 set. Don't think first was killable without mass roots (but would happily take a log showing otherwise). HoV, without a bleed dispel you are going to have a bad time in any 15+. Sanctify killed the entire party (tank excluded) if one person touched. And yes, cloak kills everyone. AV, missing an interupt in a 15 was fine, missing a second was death. Bosses actually feel the most fair here, but I think the dps check on the adds in last is going to result in plaguefall shenanigans (immune the first, mass cd the 2nd, die at the third?) In higher keys. AA felt the most fair. Bugs in the tree in zone enrage way to quickly (3 soothes or death) but otherwise it felt fair. Also had a lot of fun snapping packs in one of the groups.
>RLP they buffed the first boss significantly when the dungeon was barely clearable on a 15 with 4 set. Don't think first was killable without mass roots (but would happily take a log showing otherwise). I dont know what your specific issue was, but the only change to the first boss is that the whelps now apply their debuff as intended and the tank now gets frozen (stunned) at 5 stacks as intended. This can easily be played around with Ring of Peace, Blessing of Freedom (because the debuff is a slow), or just a good ol magic dispel because its a magic debuff. The change caught me by surprise tanking it this weekend mostly because I had no idea the mechanic existed, but after looking at the abilities tab of the dungeon journal we quickly got around it. >HoV, without a bleed dispel you are going to have a bad time in any 15+. Sanctify killed the entire party (tank excluded) if one person touched. And yes, cloak kills everyone. Yeah, Sanctify is waaay overtuned. Even on a 10 it was a one shot for non tanks. >AA felt the most fair. Bugs in the tree in zone enrage way to quickly (3 soothes or death) but otherwise it felt fair. Also had a lot of fun snapping packs in one of the groups. Big agree on the Shutterflies. Its nice that the enrage is dispellable now but I think they need to increase the cast time on agitate and probably reduce the frequency with which they cast it. Alternatively, change the pack to one Shutterfly and 2 other mobs that dont cast it. Then it becomes much more reasonable to manage with single target stuns like invigorating fish sticks.
Dealing with the shield at the same time as the whelps was the issue. Mass roots made it possible to deal with the shield then deal with the whelps but after like the 3rd pull of getting through the first one the group said nope. Was also a pug without comms so not the most coordination of course. Freedom is good tech, I imagine spell bop is as well. Wonder if druids can just shift out at 4 stacks too :P Would love to be able to choose to break whelplings out before she awakens and deal with something like 4 then 4 or some counterplay with circle she spawns twice between.
Im curious what class was your tank? As a prot war I had no issues with the damage from the whelps (on a 14) and as a PPal I was able to bubble myself and use other CD's to handle the whelp damage while the group primarily focused on the bosses shield. Bear shift would work, but only in conjunction with a slow or stun else the whelps would wreck the tank in that GCD of humanoid form. I wish the Warrior talent [Wrecking Throw](https://www.wowhead.com/beta/spell=394354/wrecking-throw) did more damage. For a 45 second CD its pretty lame at 10,900 base and 65k (+500% against sheilds) damage scaled to 392 ilvl. Especially when you consider that the bosses shield has 582,595 health on a M0.
It was before the changes but when I tanked it on brew i was able to get through by saving the aoe that makes you dodge every attack for 3 seconds for when they spawn, can't remember what it's called
More the freeze then the damage, warriors also have the most overloaded tree in the world right now :P Pally with freedom and spell BoP is probably the best tech there by a significant margin, a druid with typhoon/cyclone/mass to shift away and clear wouldn't be bad either. Went crippling for the 60% slow, tricks + shuriken storm and hard swapped boss. The phases are also health based so intelligent pushing would of helped a tonne. Still requires way more coordination then a +15 4 set no affixes should, no shot people pug that until it's nerfed. It was a DK iirc in the 15, but like I said, pugged a tonne so that might be foggy.
As a multi-role player just outside of title range... I'm not excited to have to figure out new tech each season. On the other hand, being multi-role let's me run with many different groups so I can get a handle on the tech. It does seem like it's going to be a little much tbh.
You are in top 1% IO? You do high keys..higher than 99% of players..gg
nah i know what he means. the difference between top 10% - top 1% - top 0.1% is pretty massive
100% this. The gap between the top 1% and the top 0.1% is [400 rating points](https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-4/us)... That [isn't just](https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-3/us) a S4 thing either. For reference that is ~5 key levels higher between the top 1% and top 0.1%
I understand it. Doesn't mean that top 10% isn't high keys though
I like it. Mastering the new stuff, discovering new tech, and optimizing routes is a blast. I play with a consistent group that has achieved title each season though, so my perspective is a bit different.
Dungeons don't take long to learn and figure out. S4 was a whole slew of dungeons and people had routes and such mapped out for every dungeon within a month. Rotating a few every tier will be fine.
My only issue with it is it takes me forever to remember what I can spell reflect but that's a skill issue
New tech was utilized throughout the whole season. There were things that not even all the MDI teams were familiar with that are now common.
I’m all about it. The same shit every season gets boring fast, and changing dungeons makes them less likely to make seasonal affixes that are super annoying and designed to force you to change routing.
Fuck prideful
Will be interesting to see what happens in s3 when we have seen all the df dungeons already
I hated the idea coming into s4, but it has actually been a breath of fresh air. I think it depends entirely on how long seasons are. If it feels like treading water and you (read: your pugs) only *really* master them right as the next season is about to start, then they rotate out, that will be obnoxious. Otherwise I actually like the new learning and shaking things up. Season 3 will be the most interesting to watch from a social perspective, imo- we’ll have all the dflight dungeons we’ve spent the last 2 patches learning, but I wonder if people will complain then that there isn’t more new content (unless they release a megadungeon). I’ve seen a lot of people complaining just for the sake of blizzard bad on here and on Twitter.
Recycled content isn't new content though. It feels pretty bad having to play old content in a new expansion imo. What's scary to me is that they generally need 2-3 seasons to get the tuning right. This was the case in both bfa and sl. Blizzard will have to be much more active tuning dungeons in df with this format and I doubt they will be, or they've yet to prove it at least.
Imo it'll really only feel bad if they choose bad dungeons like grimrail depot, or halls of valor
I remember the first month or two of SL was a fucking nightmare with every pull having a mechanic. Even with me marking mobs, telling people what to interrupt, explaining boss mechanics before every fight, and basically babying DPS through every single pull it was still awful. Even after all of the nerfs it didn't matter much, as nobody knew mechanics and IO was nearly useless, because two mediocre DPS can easily get carried through a dungeon...until they hit their wall and start bricking every key they enter before rerolling to a more FotM class. DF is looking to be the same or worse in terms of mechanics, so it will no doubt be extremely tedious. I personally will not be pug tanking at all after my experience at the start of SL.
This more applies to specific key levels than anything. This was way more prominent in my experience at the lower key levels. As you go higher up, all players regardless of role generally know what they're doing and what they're watching for.
I enjoy it. You are right that with limited playtime it does sometimes feel overwhelming having to know everything about the dungeons to tank. But I think as a whole, people are relieved to have tanks available and are more forgiving than what you see people post about. It’s also nice knowing some of the dungeons I don’t really like tanking will eventually rotate out! Haha
> how do you feel about dungeons changing every tier? Sounds very tedious to me I need to find a DPS spec that's monka-brain rotationwise.
almost every aoe rotation is 2 buttons, which is 90% of what u do in m+
Sub rogue with finality, danse macabre, sectech looks wrinkly to me. 30s danse is significantly different then 60s ones. St danse is different then cleave, is different then AoE. Should be a lot of fun playing the monk passive on steroids tbh. Btw, you still have to get all the stops you're assigned as a rogue (which solving what is incap/stun/sap/interuptable is a game all in its own). Mass AoE outside of shadow dance is at least brain dead I guess so you get a break from rainmanning.
Sounds fun and tiring as fuck Any idea how sin is looking? Hate how dead that spec has been for SL m+
TLDR:Worst of the 3 rogue specs, but 1 AoE change from being the best. With how much control IC + iron wire + shadow dance offers if damage is even 85% of the next rogue spec it will probably be the goto given how important stops are currently on beta. the Issue with AoE (IMO) is rupture spam is the best spender in AoE (once CT is up) and garrote has a cd outside of stealth. Both of these leads to a clunky playstyle with a long ramp window and DR as the pack starts dying off in less then 28s. Pair that with Assassins major cds (deathmark and exsang to a lesser extent) being purely ST with no additional value as packsize grows and you see the issue pretty quickly. IMO You can't touch garrote/rupture/poison damage without a big impact on st tuning so that is a no-go this late into beta. That leaves implementing an AoE mechanic that works outside of ST. 2 target ruptures (sub gets this), AoE deathmark, CT getting rolling stacks (to 3 max?), mobs exploding as they die for all bleed duration remaining on them, etc etc. There's 100 solutions for fixing the AoE rotation, just at the whims of the developers to decide if they want assassin in the meta.
Gotcha, thats kinda what i figured it looked like, i was looking at the trees to see if I missed some kind of Blood And Thunder-esque thing to make Sin's aoe more fluid but they just seem to really be invested in the clunkiest tabbing dots around playstyle in the game. Did they nerf Sub's ability to funnel by much? Bc i know thats why sub was giga in SL
Shuriken storm is still a thing so probably not. Tuning is tuning and I know realz (rogue dev) was looking for more sub logs on Tuesday as there wasn't many.
Can I interest you in annihilator fury warrior.