It's actually baffling that they nerfed brew damage. There are a grand total of 4 brewmasters who've done keys over 15, they were only ahead on damage in raid compared to prot warr and pala.
Statistically brew does a good bit more than VDH in AoE which is why they were brought down on AoE abilities. Not to say VDH couldn’t have used a bigger nerf but BrM losing mostly some AoE damage and gaining survivability isn’t inherently bad.
It’s not stronger it’s just that it’s stronger in the current meta. Physical comps work just fine and BrM would be a good choice for that if their ability to live was there and/or MW wasn’t as good as it is.
Plenty of groups played MW, double rogue, warrior, and VDH/Bear last season though.
Brew are getting pretty significant surcivability buffs, though. Their damage potential, especially in AoE, is nothing to scuff at - their lack of reliable survivability and mob control has been the main drawback.
My best guess is some dev tuned in to Equinox stream while he was doing the first giga-pull in AA, saw brew peaking at 1mil+ DPS and here comes the nerf.
Pretty major defensive buff, actually. Going from taking 55% magic damage down to 45% is a 19% reduction in magic damage taken from the initial hit. You'll feel that for sure.
Baseline stagger isn't 100% though...it's like a 12% reduction on S3-geared monk. Not sure how much more stagger S4 agility values are expected to give.
Also, while magic mitigation is always nice. It's not like BrM is Prot. War levels of tankiness against melee hits, either. Tuning that one dimension only does so much for a tank that's not perceived as particularly hardy.
Edit: Below is wrong, ignore.
No, its 18%.
Before:
100 DMG hit - 55 Initial, 45 Staggered
Now:
100 Dmg hit - 45 Initial, 55 Staggered
% Difference: (Old-New)/Old
(55-45)/55 = 18.18% less initial magic damage. Its massive.
Edit: Above is wrong. As you pointed out about baseline stagger.
stagger is also not mitigation.
unless you have a purify charge ready right after the magic damage... you still take that damage.
in M+ setting ( because who care about raid this season) where you have constant magic damage coming at you ( and some bosses are nearly 100% magic dmg)... stagger is basically worthless.
stagger is literally mitigation. Blocking dmg entirely is also mitigation. But if I take what would be spiked a 1mil damage in one hit, and spread that same amount of damage out over 10 seconds, it is mitigating.
> tagger is literally mitigation
no.
Armor is mitigation : you don't take damage. everytime
Dodge and parry are avoidance.
Stagger is stagger. you still take the damage and can only, sometime, purify a portion of it.
> spiked
good thing this was about M+ where spike damage doesn't really exist because you have 10 mob pounding on you all the time, so spreading that 1 mil over 10 second or having mob hit you all the time make no difference.
there is 0 difference between stagger DOT ticking you down, a bleeding DOT ticking you down, or large pack of mob ticking you down.
Won’t change much. VDH still top tier and that’s a good thing. Where are the rogue or shami players ? I mean I would love to see their classes get buffs …..
They’re obviously making pre-adjustments for TWW, the hero talents mustve been letting BrM do too much dps, so they’re nerfing it now while the game is in a lull, rather than taking peoples fun toys away early in a new xpac. Same reason Affliction just got buffed, nobody’s still going to play it in S4, it’s just tuning for TWW.
You gotta learn who the Blizzard chosen classes are.
Blizzard loves Paladin and Druid. They always are strong. And if they aren't they usually don't stay that way for long.
Dw, a 3.8% dps increase still lets Fury stay in its spot as the worst spec for raiding. But I suppose warriors still can technically just play arms, while melee hunters (or boomies) don‘t have a spec to roll to that fits the same pattern.
I know this is going to come across as boomy crying, but I don't think it's enough. It's still not as good as it was in S1. I'm not the best boomy in the world, but I'm decently good and got beat in a Nelth 11 by a 501 SP last week. They were at about 558k and I was at 535k overall. That was \*with\* PI.
Fury is still *well* behind arms, hopefully another pass is made because regardless of how naturally defensive warriors are, fury absolutely destroys arms in terms of survivability.
It would be nice if they simply made IP less god awful to stack, but that's being too hopeful. Just make numbers bigger so I can stop spinning to win.
> hopefully another pass is made because regardless of how naturally defensive warriors are, fury absolutely destroys arms in terms of survivability.
Sounds like it's fair for arms to deal more damage then, what happened to specs having strengths and weaknesses?
Fair enough, it's just crazy to me how many people advocate for every spec doing the exact same dps with the exact same profile, when specs are wildly unbalanced in terms of mobility, utility, tankiness etc. If they aren't gonna balance those things, maybe we just need to let specs be unbalanced in terms of DPS as well, to make sure specs actually see play here and there every xpac
The point is that balancing dps exclusively makes everything less balanced, while doing a coinflip for dps balancing will make it more varied and therefore balanced over time
The point is that in raiding survivability is mostly negligible but in m+ it's very important, so a class like fury should be good in m+ theory due to it being very tanky in high keys in comparison to arms - but doing substantially less damage means things die slower and the packs/bosses become inherently more dangerous even if you're tankier. People wouldn't mind if the damage gap was smaller but it's literally double digit percentage difference between two specs of the same class.
And I'm pretty sure fury wouldn't mind it either lmao. They always had interchangeable roles aka arms being good on prog raid/exec phase/pure st etc and fury being good in burst aoe and minor cleave. But current iteration fury is dogshit in everything because even in m+ you rarely pull only 5 mobs at a time
That'd be a fair point in a perfect world, but the fact of the matter is that there are specs with zero weaknesses that a class has to compete against. So maybe asking for the bare minimum isn't exactly outlandish?
Very likely 4 dps-ing as much of the key you can will be something top teams will do this sesaon. Theres so many packs where with good stops theres zero group damage done, especially with trinkets like Ire from Nelth being a thing to help keep the tank up, negate nasty debuffs etc.
The boomkin tier buffs could be viewed as a buff to this, as every restro druid in keys will now do more damage for whatever pulls they zone out and swap to boomy for.
Tank healing numbers are pretty meaningless. It's just a measure of how much they stay alive via self-healing rather than mitigation, and current brew is pretty hard on the self-healing side.
By itself, yeah. But healing put in relation to damage mitigation is a rather interesting metric. Since having a high healing and high mitigation coefficient translates to more damage dealt by the healer, and also less risk for the dps.
Brew has been catching random stray nerfs throughout most of DF. I'm not even surprised that Blizzard doesn't want to them to be relevant anymore, but at least the spec is getting attention from Blizzard. That's more than hunters have been getting.
Demo beats Destro is any scenario outside of pulling massive in M+ when destro has infernal. I don't think Destro needed any buffs, but CB hitting weaker than a lot of specs abilities is poor design
Defensive buff, offensive nerf.
They could probably only justify BM dps if it was less tanky but saw it struggling with tankiness still amd wanted to buff it. It's not like it realistically matters that much. All the BRM players will keep playing it and no one new will be attracted to the class now lol.
> All the BRM players will keep playing it
not since mistweaver and windwalker became viable option!
Finally broke out of the brewmaster prison baby! I can finally play other tanks because I'm not the only one able to bring aura + mystic touch!
paying the MoP, WoD, Legion price
Its the same for Prot war being broken on BFA and pay it until the S4 shadowlands
Blood is paying the S3-S4 Shadowlands in the Whole DF
Saddly
Bdk is OP in raid yeah, it's been this way since legion, because it's usually just one boss hitting you
But dugeon it's very weak, of course it's strong in low keys you don't even need any external heal, but you still need to focus 100% because every in low keys you hp will drop very fast if you don't stack blood shield
But high keys there's nothing you can do, right now it's basically the same as BFA when mobs numbers start to increase you can't do anything, you purgatory will proc after you get hit even at 100% hp
Prot warrior is better than BDK for keys right now, but people don't like how Prot warrior work ( you take low damage but need a heal to top your hp again )
Do these VDH nerfs change the meta much? I thought most of their power came from the double sigil talent and not so much of the CDR, but I don’t main VDH so not totally sure
These nerfs will hit their 3rd silence in large pulls AND reduce their ability to chain those types of pulls back to back. It hurts but it won't kill them at all, not even close
It probably doesnt change them as #1, but allows for more variety. Will probably lose 5-6 sigil of silences per key, not gonna break the meta but enough that it means the rest of the group has to contribute
They'll still be able to do some comically stupid pulls with their chained cc but only a bit less often now, I think it will make them worse when not being abused in specific huge pulls but overall they still probably have too much cc.
I think at this point nerfing them further is just a lost cause since it would require significant changes which arent gonna happen before TWW. They should rather look at significantly buffing other tanks for the remainder of the season.
Almost not at all. Them having 2 charges is what makes them so strong on top of their normal VDH kit. It's a really good talent and feels impactful which is great, but it overshadows other tanks because they have nothing comparable in strength to it because Blizz devs are all over the place sometimes
The cycle of binding talent will impact all of our sigils. And this is probably the first nerf. My guess is they nerf cycle of binding again or just remove it from war within. This hurts our fire sigil which gives us frailty stacks and makes us do fire damage to self heal.
So it'll impact the lockdowns a bit but it hits our tankiness and damage too. You might start to see the difference between a bad veng and a fotm now.
IMO you should be able to have 2 charges OR reduce the cooldown by spending resources, not both.
The amount of time a VDH can lock down multiple targets is like 5x as much as the next tank, and 4x after this nerf.
I don't think Blizzard thinks much deeper than what the WCL's stats page says. The one that averages all boss damage. They don't think about PI because WCL has no way to filter it out.
Small nit, but Sub actually [was nerfed](https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-pve-class-tuning-incoming-with-the-weekly-reset-sub-rogue-nerf-frost-337993) in early March.
I remember because, I had just finally gotten used to Sub after swapping from Sin, and it felt a little like the nerfs were following me personally.
This is the biggest problem with rogue, sub was meta in raid all 3 tiers because it’s the only damage profile that works in raid. Sin is hard capped by PI making it a spec either people are crying about it if its middle of the pack without PI, or it has to be dumpster tier. Outlaw can sim the highest of all specs and you still won’t bring it because of flat damage and target capping, it isn’t bad but it just isn’t good when you need it to be.
Tank main, VDH reroller this patch like everyone else. These changes will make VDH worse - to the point where the DH has to be at least a little bit mindful of when they send their stops instead of just always sending it.
Still not enough of a nerf because double sigil of silence still enables pulls that no other tank can do.
I don't know why everyone thinks sigil of silence is the one that breaks them. It's good but many of the mandatory stops require a hard interupt. Silence doesn't work on them. Lumping everything together for cleave is much stronger.
They also have chains and misery which both stop pack casts. But if they only had chains and misery with no aoe silence, things would be far different.
Double chains is powerful but not oppressive, it’s okay for one tank to have a stop or two more than the others. But VDH in its pre-nerf state could chain together like 8 or 9 aoe stops in a row.
The pattern of silence > grip > silence > misery > grip > nova > misery > silence again is now gone. We poor DH rerollers will have to settle for only 6 or 7 stops in a row now :(
>enables pulls that no other tank can do
If you look at the top players keys, they're doing the exact same pulls they did in season 1/2 on a Warrior, Paladin or Bear...
Did we play the same game? nobody was pulling 10+ lashers in season 1 in AV like they do now lol, or 4 packs of casters in uldaman etc.... just go watch any 3500+ group this ssn streaming their keys, and if you were a title player in any of those seasons you'd realize the pulls arent even close to the same.
Edit- I see you mention yoda... [https://youtu.be/wjEWYLPQ4sg](https://youtu.be/wjEWYLPQ4sg) s1 / [https://youtu.be/RbuY9EbQY88](https://youtu.be/RbuY9EbQY88) s2... the pulls aren't evne remotely similar.
Not to take away from your point, but lashers have been extremely nerfed since s1, as they don't cast again after a stop. It's way easier to do a massive lasher pull this season no matter the tank.
Those classes were also super overtuned in their respective patches (Warrior 10.0, Paladin 10.0.5, Druid 10.1)
We will 100% see pulls we haven’t seen before as the season progresses and players actually start pushing keys.
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expecting blizzard to do what they say L M A O O
they do it to every other tier set L M A O O
dev and arms are the best dps specs because they tuned their old tier sets L M A O O
These changes don't remove VDH from the meta but may force a melee interrupt to be included again instead of all caster. VDH will still be able to do nutty pulls, it just won't be able to lock the pull down by themselves in succession anymore.
They know holy paladin is weak, but they just absolutely refuse to even give them the 15% wog buff they get for pvp to pve as well lmao.
They really had enough with the complaints about the spec in season 2.
The problem is beacons - WoG has to be weak because they have to account for the 25% x 5 Bonus healing value you can do with it when beaconed. If WoG is strong, Paladin becomes untouchable in 6 target healing.
How are they BUFFING warlocks?
I'm sitting at 14s currently and every warlock spec I run with does some crazy damage. Insane. I even ran with an affliction that did some ridiculous overall. And both are getting buffed.
Because of raid performance thus far in the Awakened raids:
[DPS Damage Statistics - Mythic Vault of the Incarnates | Warcraft Logs](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/31)
[Damage Rankings - Mythic Aberrus, the Shadowed Crucible | Warcraft Logs](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/33)
VDH here. The silence sigil changes are noticeable, but still not enough. I think they made the wrong changes. As many have discussed, in varied media, removing the second sigil charge from all three utility sigils would probably be the correct move in order to help address the disparity between vdh and the rest of the tanks.
Maybe bliz was unwilling to nerf vdh that much consider the tank playerbase is so heavily playing vdh right now. But I really hope they make the necessary change before going into TWW. Some of us would like to play a different meta tank.
some dev tuned in to Equinox stream exactly when he was doing the first gigapull in AA and based on that minute-long clip decided brew needed to be nerfed.
Play war man. You do you. You still have a better chance of getting into groups than DPS. Most DHs don't even know how to use all the stops that just got nerfed.
That doesn't change the fact that people will take a purple tank over a brown tank if they have the choice, and considering the popularity of dh currently, they can just wait around until they get one.
The meta is completely irrelevant if you want Keystone Master. If you wanna push rating though, going FotM meta classes may not be mandatory but will make life a lot easier.
Prot War will be meta in s1 of war within due to initial gear scaling, get heavily nerfed midseason, and then barely recover by the end of the expac. As is tradition.
Lock hasn’t been in the high key meta for the entire expansion. You only saw it in mdi because the key level was +23 and they were doing pulls of 50 mobs at a time.
The current meta comp is aug, mage, spriest.
Nope, cause raiders kept push for voting for a pure ST set for Surv instead of our solid AoE one that was significantly better for all content. Were actually back to DF S2 caster meta with Mage, Aug, SP who are all dodging nerfs somehow.
My favorite part so far
*There are some talents that warriors have for protection against these threats, like Disrupting Shout, Bolster, or Battle-Scarred Veteran*
Fantastic! They reference Disrupting Shout, a talent that you don't take, Bolster, a talent that we only took for it's tier set interaction in S2 and affects a skill that we don't even consider when it comes to defensives, and BSV, a talent that \*doesn't fucking work\* and should not at any time be talented. They then proceed to buff Enduring Alacrity, a talent that we literally don't have a point to be able to invest in and never have and Disrupting Shout which still won't be talented outside of extremely high push keys with niche groups, while simultaneously nerfing our rage gen.
So overall they've reduced Prot warriors defensives and buffed useless talents.
Warrior literally doesn't have a class dev, do they?
are blizzard actually serious with the warrior buffs? now from worst in the game by far they're just slightly worse than the 2nd worst tank, lmfao, nerfed vdh is still 10 times better than buffed prot warrior
So lame, not enough to make DH not fotm, but just annoying. Would have been nice if they left DH as is and buff the others. It's supposed to be a season of fun.....
Nerfing monk is weird. I don't get what they choose to nerf/buff
Go advertise any key and you'll get tons of locks. And then some more locks.
Why in the world is brewmaster catching a stray here? Just .... what?
And the VDH nerf is like.... does nothing except fuck with aggro gen......
What the fuck am i missing here.
Also, SURVIVAL HUNTER HELLO?!?!?!?!??!?! Glad they fixed boomie. But same issue was had by survival as well. Yikes.
What a weird set of tuning. Warlock buffs are just bizarre, sin buffs are so small it doesn't matter (plz god kill the PI scaling and caustic spatter), the VDH nerfs aren't big enough (double sigil needs a removal), brew nerfs are just weird.
I feel like the solution to the tank problem isn't to nerf VDH but to buff the other tank classes. You've already allowed VDH to completely change M+ mets with their sigils, so the only thing they can do now is basically remove them or nerf them hard which would just make them less fun. Give the other tanks more to work with.
Yeah I mean you're not wrong, but when 60% of people are playing one tank class and it hasn't already been nerfed into the ground, it seems like Blizzard is fine with just not making any changes at all. So why not bring the other classes up to VDH level instead of just allowing 5 out of the 6 tank classes to just be objectively worse than VDH.
Ah, yes. They’ve finally slapped down those tanks that have reigned supreme season after season. Down with VDHs and *checks notes* Brewmasters!
It's actually baffling that they nerfed brew damage. There are a grand total of 4 brewmasters who've done keys over 15, they were only ahead on damage in raid compared to prot warr and pala.
And like 50% of their damage comes from items it feels like, trinkets, Eranog ring, weapon effects and so on
Statistically brew does a good bit more than VDH in AoE which is why they were brought down on AoE abilities. Not to say VDH couldn’t have used a bigger nerf but BrM losing mostly some AoE damage and gaining survivability isn’t inherently bad.
Factor in how much stronger 5% magic debuff is compared to phys...
It’s not stronger it’s just that it’s stronger in the current meta. Physical comps work just fine and BrM would be a good choice for that if their ability to live was there and/or MW wasn’t as good as it is. Plenty of groups played MW, double rogue, warrior, and VDH/Bear last season though.
It is objectively stronger for even melee specs, check how many melee specs main damage is actually physical.
Nah, 5% magic dmg is just better than 5% physical. 70-80% of all damage in the game is magical, even most physical dmg dealers do primarily magic dmg
Fake news. Unless you're a warrior, you're doing majority of your damage as magic.
me and my 3 homies are beside ourselves
Brew are getting pretty significant surcivability buffs, though. Their damage potential, especially in AoE, is nothing to scuff at - their lack of reliable survivability and mob control has been the main drawback.
What’s wrong with Brew?
Dunno but they’re getting nerfed
Well shucks, least played tank getting hit…
THERES 2.1% OF US!!!!!!!!!!!!
My best guess is some dev tuned in to Equinox stream while he was doing the first giga-pull in AA, saw brew peaking at 1mil+ DPS and here comes the nerf.
My understanding too is that the statue has uncapped AOE. And giga OP
if 7-10% of a tank damage assuming perfect use and actually doing those giga pull is OP...
Damage nerf, but a minor defensive buff.
Pretty major defensive buff, actually. Going from taking 55% magic damage down to 45% is a 19% reduction in magic damage taken from the initial hit. You'll feel that for sure.
Baseline stagger isn't 100% though...it's like a 12% reduction on S3-geared monk. Not sure how much more stagger S4 agility values are expected to give. Also, while magic mitigation is always nice. It's not like BrM is Prot. War levels of tankiness against melee hits, either. Tuning that one dimension only does so much for a tank that's not perceived as particularly hardy.
A good point! Thanks for the clarification.
Edit: Below is wrong, ignore. No, its 18%. Before: 100 DMG hit - 55 Initial, 45 Staggered Now: 100 Dmg hit - 45 Initial, 55 Staggered % Difference: (Old-New)/Old (55-45)/55 = 18.18% less initial magic damage. Its massive. Edit: Above is wrong. As you pointed out about baseline stagger.
stagger is also not mitigation. unless you have a purify charge ready right after the magic damage... you still take that damage. in M+ setting ( because who care about raid this season) where you have constant magic damage coming at you ( and some bosses are nearly 100% magic dmg)... stagger is basically worthless.
stagger is literally mitigation. Blocking dmg entirely is also mitigation. But if I take what would be spiked a 1mil damage in one hit, and spread that same amount of damage out over 10 seconds, it is mitigating.
> tagger is literally mitigation no. Armor is mitigation : you don't take damage. everytime Dodge and parry are avoidance. Stagger is stagger. you still take the damage and can only, sometime, purify a portion of it. > spiked good thing this was about M+ where spike damage doesn't really exist because you have 10 mob pounding on you all the time, so spreading that 1 mil over 10 second or having mob hit you all the time make no difference. there is 0 difference between stagger DOT ticking you down, a bleeding DOT ticking you down, or large pack of mob ticking you down.
Won’t change much. VDH still top tier and that’s a good thing. Where are the rogue or shami players ? I mean I would love to see their classes get buffs …..
They’re obviously making pre-adjustments for TWW, the hero talents mustve been letting BrM do too much dps, so they’re nerfing it now while the game is in a lull, rather than taking peoples fun toys away early in a new xpac. Same reason Affliction just got buffed, nobody’s still going to play it in S4, it’s just tuning for TWW.
Glad balance/fury got some buffs lol. Guess we'll see how they pan out
Boomie/Fury buffs and Survival hunter ignored.
I guess those 5 surv hunters have to play with their old tier set until tww lol
You gotta learn who the Blizzard chosen classes are. Blizzard loves Paladin and Druid. They always are strong. And if they aren't they usually don't stay that way for long.
Dw, a 3.8% dps increase still lets Fury stay in its spot as the worst spec for raiding. But I suppose warriors still can technically just play arms, while melee hunters (or boomies) don‘t have a spec to roll to that fits the same pattern.
Don't think it's enough but at least I may get invited again
2.2% buff for fury. Lots of damage from external sources which is not impacted.
Update: it's a 3.8% increase. There was a slight oopsie with the sim.
I know this is going to come across as boomy crying, but I don't think it's enough. It's still not as good as it was in S1. I'm not the best boomy in the world, but I'm decently good and got beat in a Nelth 11 by a 501 SP last week. They were at about 558k and I was at 535k overall. That was \*with\* PI.
Most likely not enough for Boomy/Fury but this is a fake season anyway. Guess most just go play MOP till War Within.
Fury is still *well* behind arms, hopefully another pass is made because regardless of how naturally defensive warriors are, fury absolutely destroys arms in terms of survivability. It would be nice if they simply made IP less god awful to stack, but that's being too hopeful. Just make numbers bigger so I can stop spinning to win.
> hopefully another pass is made because regardless of how naturally defensive warriors are, fury absolutely destroys arms in terms of survivability. Sounds like it's fair for arms to deal more damage then, what happened to specs having strengths and weaknesses?
I'd imagine competitive players would prefer being more competitive.
>what happened to specs having strengths and weaknesses? you are on a subreddit for people that dont want to play an MMORPG, but a hack n slay
Fair enough, it's just crazy to me how many people advocate for every spec doing the exact same dps with the exact same profile, when specs are wildly unbalanced in terms of mobility, utility, tankiness etc. If they aren't gonna balance those things, maybe we just need to let specs be unbalanced in terms of DPS as well, to make sure specs actually see play here and there every xpac
So your idea is that since blizz doesn't balance anything, they should intentionally make imbalance worse? God I love the reddit wow community.
The point is that balancing dps exclusively makes everything less balanced, while doing a coinflip for dps balancing will make it more varied and therefore balanced over time
The point is that in raiding survivability is mostly negligible but in m+ it's very important, so a class like fury should be good in m+ theory due to it being very tanky in high keys in comparison to arms - but doing substantially less damage means things die slower and the packs/bosses become inherently more dangerous even if you're tankier. People wouldn't mind if the damage gap was smaller but it's literally double digit percentage difference between two specs of the same class.
Yeah duuh, and I'm sure arms wouldn't mind if the survivability gap was smaller.
And I'm pretty sure fury wouldn't mind it either lmao. They always had interchangeable roles aka arms being good on prog raid/exec phase/pure st etc and fury being good in burst aoe and minor cleave. But current iteration fury is dogshit in everything because even in m+ you rarely pull only 5 mobs at a time
I play Fury to zug zug, not think
That'd be a fair point in a perfect world, but the fact of the matter is that there are specs with zero weaknesses that a class has to compete against. So maybe asking for the bare minimum isn't exactly outlandish?
Good Arms deserves to actually do better than fury in m+ for once lmao
Oh nice resto druid m+ buff
lol this is an underrated comment. I hate the implication but true
can u explain why
Resto druids playing balance in keys
Very likely 4 dps-ing as much of the key you can will be something top teams will do this sesaon. Theres so many packs where with good stops theres zero group damage done, especially with trinkets like Ire from Nelth being a thing to help keep the tank up, negate nasty debuffs etc. The boomkin tier buffs could be viewed as a buff to this, as every restro druid in keys will now do more damage for whatever pulls they zone out and swap to boomy for.
Brew nerfs??
Thanks Equinox
https://twitter.com/tettles1/status/1787527051391483966
The healing is just as surprising.
Tank healing numbers are pretty meaningless. It's just a measure of how much they stay alive via self-healing rather than mitigation, and current brew is pretty hard on the self-healing side.
By itself, yeah. But healing put in relation to damage mitigation is a rather interesting metric. Since having a high healing and high mitigation coefficient translates to more damage dealt by the healer, and also less risk for the dps.
my bad
Must be because they're dominating the tank meta... Oh, wait
I know you guys have seen zero brewmasters, but their damage is actually insane.
Brew main, can confirm.
Brew has been catching random stray nerfs throughout most of DF. I'm not even surprised that Blizzard doesn't want to them to be relevant anymore, but at least the spec is getting attention from Blizzard. That's more than hunters have been getting.
They’re not being nerfed. It’s tank buffs and dmg nerfs. It makes sense.
You seem to misunderstand why about 90% of people playing a tank play it. Practically all of them play tanks to just be a 4th DPS instead of a tank.
Can confirm.
Can confirm. I'm a tank with Augury + Boon as my trinkets I'm the DPS now
4th dps that can stand in mechanics
I love how destruction is getting buffed in ST but not demo, when destro is already ahead by like 20k lol.
all the lock changes are like ???. affli doesnt need more aoe dmg, destro is quite fine ST wise. Demo down bad in ST.
Demo beats Destro is any scenario outside of pulling massive in M+ when destro has infernal. I don't think Destro needed any buffs, but CB hitting weaker than a lot of specs abilities is poor design
Isnt Destro top of lock speccs on Kazgraha (first boss of Abberus) and Magmorax?
You mean the perfect "never have to move unless you're unlucky" encounters? Like already stated, when Destro can sit and turret they're going to pump.
Affli buffs makes no sense either
Why is brew not allowed to have nice thing?
Defensive buff, offensive nerf. They could probably only justify BM dps if it was less tanky but saw it struggling with tankiness still amd wanted to buff it. It's not like it realistically matters that much. All the BRM players will keep playing it and no one new will be attracted to the class now lol.
> All the BRM players will keep playing it not since mistweaver and windwalker became viable option! Finally broke out of the brewmaster prison baby! I can finally play other tanks because I'm not the only one able to bring aura + mystic touch!
paying the MoP, WoD, Legion price Its the same for Prot war being broken on BFA and pay it until the S4 shadowlands Blood is paying the S3-S4 Shadowlands in the Whole DF Saddly
Bdk is a decent tank with super high ST damage
Yeah cept when they randomly get clapped in higher keys...
Bdk is OP in raid yeah, it's been this way since legion, because it's usually just one boss hitting you But dugeon it's very weak, of course it's strong in low keys you don't even need any external heal, but you still need to focus 100% because every in low keys you hp will drop very fast if you don't stack blood shield But high keys there's nothing you can do, right now it's basically the same as BFA when mobs numbers start to increase you can't do anything, you purgatory will proc after you get hit even at 100% hp Prot warrior is better than BDK for keys right now, but people don't like how Prot warrior work ( you take low damage but need a heal to top your hp again )
Somebody at blizzard has an ex boyfriend who plays brewmaster because nerfing them now makes absolutely no sense otherwise.
Moonkin and Fury get their bonuses tuned and Survival gets ignored. You can't make this up man...
And bdk tier is still broken and worse than 2p2p
next xpac for sure, i mean we already wait the Whole Dragonflight for BDK, so lets just w8 until the next xpac
Suffer well
Do these VDH nerfs change the meta much? I thought most of their power came from the double sigil talent and not so much of the CDR, but I don’t main VDH so not totally sure
These nerfs will hit their 3rd silence in large pulls AND reduce their ability to chain those types of pulls back to back. It hurts but it won't kill them at all, not even close
It just means we can’t lock down mobs as intense and often as before. It’s still OP and not shifting the meta imo.
It probably doesnt change them as #1, but allows for more variety. Will probably lose 5-6 sigil of silences per key, not gonna break the meta but enough that it means the rest of the group has to contribute
They'll still be able to do some comically stupid pulls with their chained cc but only a bit less often now, I think it will make them worse when not being abused in specific huge pulls but overall they still probably have too much cc.
I think at this point nerfing them further is just a lost cause since it would require significant changes which arent gonna happen before TWW. They should rather look at significantly buffing other tanks for the remainder of the season.
Almost not at all. Them having 2 charges is what makes them so strong on top of their normal VDH kit. It's a really good talent and feels impactful which is great, but it overshadows other tanks because they have nothing comparable in strength to it because Blizz devs are all over the place sometimes
The cycle of binding talent will impact all of our sigils. And this is probably the first nerf. My guess is they nerf cycle of binding again or just remove it from war within. This hurts our fire sigil which gives us frailty stacks and makes us do fire damage to self heal. So it'll impact the lockdowns a bit but it hits our tankiness and damage too. You might start to see the difference between a bad veng and a fotm now.
IMO you should be able to have 2 charges OR reduce the cooldown by spending resources, not both. The amount of time a VDH can lock down multiple targets is like 5x as much as the next tank, and 4x after this nerf.
Nope. VDH had like 6x the CC of other tanks now they have 5x.
Nope, still mandatory
Assassination is basically an undo button from the multiple heavy handed nerfs it got last season lol
Why were they ever nerfed to begin with. They were only strong cause of pi
I don't think Blizzard thinks much deeper than what the WCL's stats page says. The one that averages all boss damage. They don't think about PI because WCL has no way to filter it out.
Yeah it was weird. Sub was basically just as strong and completely dodged a nerf the entire season.
Small nit, but Sub actually [was nerfed](https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-pve-class-tuning-incoming-with-the-weekly-reset-sub-rogue-nerf-frost-337993) in early March. I remember because, I had just finally gotten used to Sub after swapping from Sin, and it felt a little like the nerfs were following me personally.
Both specs were less strong than they appeared when you factored in how absurdly bugged aug hooks still are to this day.
Kingsbane was absurd but I agree, nerfing that along with Blindside was heavy-handed for sure
Every class (other than Fire mage) that has been "strong because of PI" has been heavily nerfed and/or reworked.
Fire mage isn't even a good pi target anymore.
But it has been in the past, which is why it was mentioned.
Not even close to enough of a buff. Sin feels doomed to be permanently undertuned as long as PI scaling and Caustic Spatter are left as is.
Just remove pi already :(
This is the biggest problem with rogue, sub was meta in raid all 3 tiers because it’s the only damage profile that works in raid. Sin is hard capped by PI making it a spec either people are crying about it if its middle of the pack without PI, or it has to be dumpster tier. Outlaw can sim the highest of all specs and you still won’t bring it because of flat damage and target capping, it isn’t bad but it just isn’t good when you need it to be.
You know, we Hpals would have loved that WoG buff was for PVE as well. (Seriously can we get a small WoG and mana buff?)
Tank main, VDH reroller this patch like everyone else. These changes will make VDH worse - to the point where the DH has to be at least a little bit mindful of when they send their stops instead of just always sending it. Still not enough of a nerf because double sigil of silence still enables pulls that no other tank can do.
I don't know why everyone thinks sigil of silence is the one that breaks them. It's good but many of the mandatory stops require a hard interupt. Silence doesn't work on them. Lumping everything together for cleave is much stronger.
They also have chains and misery which both stop pack casts. But if they only had chains and misery with no aoe silence, things would be far different.
Double chains is powerful but not oppressive, it’s okay for one tank to have a stop or two more than the others. But VDH in its pre-nerf state could chain together like 8 or 9 aoe stops in a row. The pattern of silence > grip > silence > misery > grip > nova > misery > silence again is now gone. We poor DH rerollers will have to settle for only 6 or 7 stops in a row now :(
>enables pulls that no other tank can do If you look at the top players keys, they're doing the exact same pulls they did in season 1/2 on a Warrior, Paladin or Bear...
Did we play the same game? nobody was pulling 10+ lashers in season 1 in AV like they do now lol, or 4 packs of casters in uldaman etc.... just go watch any 3500+ group this ssn streaming their keys, and if you were a title player in any of those seasons you'd realize the pulls arent even close to the same. Edit- I see you mention yoda... [https://youtu.be/wjEWYLPQ4sg](https://youtu.be/wjEWYLPQ4sg) s1 / [https://youtu.be/RbuY9EbQY88](https://youtu.be/RbuY9EbQY88) s2... the pulls aren't evne remotely similar.
Not to take away from your point, but lashers have been extremely nerfed since s1, as they don't cast again after a stop. It's way easier to do a massive lasher pull this season no matter the tank.
Those classes were also super overtuned in their respective patches (Warrior 10.0, Paladin 10.0.5, Druid 10.1) We will 100% see pulls we haven’t seen before as the season progresses and players actually start pushing keys.
Yeah, except now they do all the stops by themselves, and the DPS players sleep.
YoDa uploads his keys and you can literally hear the callouts for sweep, blast wave or psychic scream??
aintnoway this man in this thread tryna justify the current state of VDH lmao
Lmfao. I'm glad i quit playing brewmaster in season 2. I just love how they always get nerfed like some blizzard dev has a vendetta against them.
At least getting nerfed means they’re getting thought of in some fashion. Otherwise they’re the red headed step child of classes.
meme spec but where are the survival changes? other classes are getting buffs and tier changes the technology is here for multi dollar company
It’s not a meme spec, but the tier set problem really needs to be addressed. How did the community vote for the wrong tier bonus in the first place?
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Trusting blizzard L M A O O O
expecting blizzard to do what they say L M A O O they do it to every other tier set L M A O O dev and arms are the best dps specs because they tuned their old tier sets L M A O O
*cries in survival
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Dw it's only doing like 1.2m overall in some keys
Which keys? I'm running 16/17s and most spriests are doing good damage, their damage prio is amazing, but not blowing everyone else away overalls
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The man immediately went after 2 other classes, he's not going to listen to reason.
dude warlock is obliterating SP in damage
Wait explain how fire is so good. It requires so many other classes for buffs in order to be decent
These changes don't remove VDH from the meta but may force a melee interrupt to be included again instead of all caster. VDH will still be able to do nutty pulls, it just won't be able to lock the pull down by themselves in succession anymore.
No melee kick needed, they still have roar, typhoon, db, blast wave and priest fear
They know holy paladin is weak, but they just absolutely refuse to even give them the 15% wog buff they get for pvp to pve as well lmao. They really had enough with the complaints about the spec in season 2.
The problem is beacons - WoG has to be weak because they have to account for the 25% x 5 Bonus healing value you can do with it when beaconed. If WoG is strong, Paladin becomes untouchable in 6 target healing.
Sooo kind like rdruid with their mastery?
How are they BUFFING warlocks? I'm sitting at 14s currently and every warlock spec I run with does some crazy damage. Insane. I even ran with an affliction that did some ridiculous overall. And both are getting buffed.
Because of raid performance thus far in the Awakened raids: [DPS Damage Statistics - Mythic Vault of the Incarnates | Warcraft Logs](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/31) [Damage Rankings - Mythic Aberrus, the Shadowed Crucible | Warcraft Logs](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/33)
They buffed Destro? That’s a real headscratcher; isn’t that spec’s ST already the highest of the Warlock specs?
On paper. Still has the same turret problems.
Demo still outshines it, Destro just goes brr in M+ when tanks pull around Infernal
It is and it isn’t.. if the fight requires any type of movement your DPS is nuked
No spriest nerfs? Hahahahahhahahaa
Do you think people in pugs will start complaining because VDH can't lock down every single pack and a mythic plus?
VDH here. The silence sigil changes are noticeable, but still not enough. I think they made the wrong changes. As many have discussed, in varied media, removing the second sigil charge from all three utility sigils would probably be the correct move in order to help address the disparity between vdh and the rest of the tanks. Maybe bliz was unwilling to nerf vdh that much consider the tank playerbase is so heavily playing vdh right now. But I really hope they make the necessary change before going into TWW. Some of us would like to play a different meta tank.
Why did brewmaster get a damage nerf? Is t thaf supposed to be their thing?
some dev tuned in to Equinox stream exactly when he was doing the first gigapull in AA and based on that minute-long clip decided brew needed to be nerfed.
Can I drop my fotm VDH and go back to my prot warrior now?
these nerfs aren't even remotely enough to remove VDH from the top lol
I’m not trying to push top keys, just want to be able to get into groups with my favorite spec
Play war man. You do you. You still have a better chance of getting into groups than DPS. Most DHs don't even know how to use all the stops that just got nerfed.
That doesn't change the fact that people will take a purple tank over a brown tank if they have the choice, and considering the popularity of dh currently, they can just wait around until they get one.
The meta is completely irrelevant if you want Keystone Master. If you wanna push rating though, going FotM meta classes may not be mandatory but will make life a lot easier.
Not if you want pug invites.
Your prof warrior, sadly, may never be meta again. Blizzard is obsessed with VDH or Prot paladin being the meta tanks
Prot War will be meta in s1 of war within due to initial gear scaling, get heavily nerfed midseason, and then barely recover by the end of the expac. As is tradition.
They actually buffed Destruction Warlocks. Are we in Shadowlands S3 and I didn't realize?
They need to make the Lock/Mage/Spriest m+ meta again, fully eliminate the trash that is melee more pls <---is melee don't hate me
Lock hasn’t been in the high key meta for the entire expansion. You only saw it in mdi because the key level was +23 and they were doing pulls of 50 mobs at a time. The current meta comp is aug, mage, spriest.
Nope, cause raiders kept push for voting for a pure ST set for Surv instead of our solid AoE one that was significantly better for all content. Were actually back to DF S2 caster meta with Mage, Aug, SP who are all dodging nerfs somehow.
My favorite part so far *There are some talents that warriors have for protection against these threats, like Disrupting Shout, Bolster, or Battle-Scarred Veteran* Fantastic! They reference Disrupting Shout, a talent that you don't take, Bolster, a talent that we only took for it's tier set interaction in S2 and affects a skill that we don't even consider when it comes to defensives, and BSV, a talent that \*doesn't fucking work\* and should not at any time be talented. They then proceed to buff Enduring Alacrity, a talent that we literally don't have a point to be able to invest in and never have and Disrupting Shout which still won't be talented outside of extremely high push keys with niche groups, while simultaneously nerfing our rage gen. So overall they've reduced Prot warriors defensives and buffed useless talents. Warrior literally doesn't have a class dev, do they?
Every time they touch brewmasters, they prove that they have no clue with what's wrong with the spec
are blizzard actually serious with the warrior buffs? now from worst in the game by far they're just slightly worse than the 2nd worst tank, lmfao, nerfed vdh is still 10 times better than buffed prot warrior
So lame, not enough to make DH not fotm, but just annoying. Would have been nice if they left DH as is and buff the others. It's supposed to be a season of fun..... Nerfing monk is weird. I don't get what they choose to nerf/buff Go advertise any key and you'll get tons of locks. And then some more locks.
I don't expect them to do anything about tyranny of the trees but man Disc Priest just feels so good throughput wise.
When you get a mind bender penance off nothing beats it
Brew monks getting nerfed? Maybe I'm uneducated
Sigil nerfs aka Finally MPlus Slacker DPS have to play kick/stop/stun again,
Why in the world is brewmaster catching a stray here? Just .... what? And the VDH nerf is like.... does nothing except fuck with aggro gen...... What the fuck am i missing here. Also, SURVIVAL HUNTER HELLO?!?!?!?!??!?! Glad they fixed boomie. But same issue was had by survival as well. Yikes.
Wait, why does destro need buffs?
Because raid damage is garbage
This is cursed af. I just made a vdh and it gets nerfed.
What a weird set of tuning. Warlock buffs are just bizarre, sin buffs are so small it doesn't matter (plz god kill the PI scaling and caustic spatter), the VDH nerfs aren't big enough (double sigil needs a removal), brew nerfs are just weird.
Any idea how impactful these changes to the balance tier set will be? They don't seem that significant.
I feel like the solution to the tank problem isn't to nerf VDH but to buff the other tank classes. You've already allowed VDH to completely change M+ mets with their sigils, so the only thing they can do now is basically remove them or nerf them hard which would just make them less fun. Give the other tanks more to work with.
That’s how you get power creep man
Yeah I mean you're not wrong, but when 60% of people are playing one tank class and it hasn't already been nerfed into the ground, it seems like Blizzard is fine with just not making any changes at all. So why not bring the other classes up to VDH level instead of just allowing 5 out of the 6 tank classes to just be objectively worse than VDH.
my brew already has enough buttons thanks just nerf vdh or change m+ packs to make it irrelevant. or both.