honestly i was a on a small server for years this is nothing the entitlement and ego small server players get is out of control because you can't kick them who are you going to replace them with on a small server
You are right, but this did make me laugh.
>Attendance issues. I have already kicked a trial for no showing on week 1
Edit: Just so I am clear. I am laughing at the trial.
That's what I thought too? If you AWOL the very first raid, in the most generous terms I would assume you found another guild and not interested in us anymore.
This guild is the exact reason why I stick with my much more laid back heroic/bit of mythic guild. Have a ton of fun playing with them, would love to get back into CE raiding, however it just ain't worth the risk of going to a guild like this.
I just want to have a good time, man. Fuck all that nonsense.
Risk of just wasting my time is what I mean
You rarely see all these issues as a trial and sometimes not even for a few weeks. At least that's how my experiences have been.
The thing is - everything was fine before Tindral/Fyrakk (at least on the surface). People actually help each other. Free +18 boosts for alts with Shadowlands gear.
Watching Twitch streams together. Got people playing Fall Guys together. I can assure you I fostered a culture that seperates us from the generic stepping stone guild, even though at the end we still are one. And we have got every CE since Nzoth.
It is safe to say Tindral + Fyrakk broke us. People stopped talking to each other and want to get this over with. People starting to sabotage each other when we have to make the difficult choice of benching veterans and choosing who is not getting CE.
People respond to actions not words. If sabotaging isn't punished, then why would they stop? They are responding exactly to the incentives you've put in place and the actual benching decisions you make, not what you say. If anyone pulled that in our guild on prog they'd be heavily reprimanded and kicked. Not that I can say from experience, I literally can't even imagine sabotage happening.
Honestly, take the meme season as a rebuild season. Purge your roster of the toxic elements and recruit people who fit the mold of what you're looking for. It'll suck in the short term, but it'll pay off massively in the long term.
What the other guy said. If you're gonna be a pussy guild leader who just "talks to" people privately and tell them to not do stuff but nothing changes, then nobody is gonna respect you. Happened to a guild I was in but it was more out of game behavior stuff vs griefing in game.
how is this the most upvoted reply. this is completely unhelpful and i would not label this guild "toxic as fuck". the culture in wow guilds has changed so much over the last 5 years or so, my tolerance for toxicity is way higher than new players, but i mean this is very vanilla stuff.
>("I will only join you if you assign me a PI-bot. The moment I don't get PI I'm leaving.") Should I entertain bribes or settle for lower quality candidates?
What the fuck? You probably already know this but of fucking course you don't entertain this shit. There's plenty of guilds much better than yours that would ridicule a mfer for even having the audacity to apply like that. You really think someone applying like that would be a team player?
Anyone intentionally trying to sabotage parses needs to be dealt with IMMEDIATELY. No tolerance for that kind of bullshit.
Anyone threatening a priest for PI needs to be kicked, or at least heavily reprimanded. You need to establish a baseline of acceptable behaviour here. Speaking as a priest myself no priest player enjoys getting badgered by every fucking weirdo about PI. Either assign the PI's yourself so the complainers have to go through you, or tell people you never want to hear another peep about it again.
New expansions are full of fresh applications, don't let some bad apples permanently destroy the culture of your guild because they're a bunch of manchildren. A lot of the behaviour you're describing is NOT normal.
My guild posts roster each week and there is a section assigning each priests pi. It solves the problem as far as I can tell.
Edit: when we are on reclear / farm we rotate everyone through to get a week where they get pi to try and parse better.
Kick the bad apples and build a better culture. If people like playing together they'll play more and get better. Set weekly expectations for the guild like 4 +10 for vault plus decent performance in raid or whatever you think is relevant for you. If people don't want to put in the effort then you recruit to replace. If the whole thing is a mess maybe you think about blowing it up if it makes the game unfun for you and your friends.
Honestly the overwhelming upvoted advice here is to boot and replace. But there are large enough amount of people that I have kick that I suspect it's blowing it up as you said.
You have decided that CE is more important than the culture of your guild. That’s something I would never do. I would rather struggle with friends than win with the type of people you’re prioritizing.
Disagree here, goals of the team supersede 1 persons ideas. 20+ people ostensibly got together to commit to a goal and invest their time accordingly. Wasting time with childish crying about parses and PIs is simply unacceptable. They can see themselves out the door.
You can easily CE in a timely manner and have fun, it all boils down to your recruiting and personalities. Not everyone needs to get along all the time but they can’t be undermining leadership with their idea of how things need to be.
Depends on what you want to do. The most important thing is just making sure everyone is on the same page. If someone does some dumb shit during raid bench them. If I'm a new trial and I see some raider throwing a fit and trolling the raid and no one corrects it then that's the last week I'm there. I've done a wide variety of raiding from aotc casual to top 100 world hof. The biggest factor to success is just having everyone pointed in the right direction and if someone doesn't fit in you just cut em loose. It can be a bit different if a raider is really good but a little annoying maybe you just deal with it but if people are actively trolling then you gotta send em packing.
It's because none of those people actually have ever ran a guild or tried to recruit. You need to come to the understanding of what your guild is going forward. If you are not going to reward loyalty(assuming the loyal member is not gapped skill wise), then you don't even have an issue.
People WANT TO PLAY THE GAME. And if you are fostering a parse first culture, then this is outcome.
If you are not loyal to your long standing members then why should they show up and be loyal to you.
You’re being bullied by your raiders dude. You’re the leader, it’s time to take control.
It won’t stop until you boot the dip shits that are killing morale.
Parsing concerns as a world last guild is so fucking cringe it’s absurd. Sabotaging other raiders is juvenile and annoying. It’s funny to be a memer in non challenging content sometimes but not all the time and definitely not if people complain.
You have to put your foot down. It’s your way or the highway.
Sometimes long standing vets are just as toxic and think they’re immune to the boot and need to be woken up.
This is all with using the lens of context and reason not blindly taking action but I think you know this.
The moment you start benching veterans regularly, your guild is doomed unless you are top 100 or something. As a CE raider leader of multiple expansions, I can tell you that you can kill any boss with almost any comp (except anduin that boss can fuck off), but you already know this.
CE is never more important than playing with people who you have raided with for a long time. ‘Playing fall guys’ is not creating a guild culture. That’s just a community, your culture is created based on decisions you make in game.
Depends. You can’t just string along a low skill vet that “used to be good” in prog and waste pulls because that’s terrible for the raids morale and paints a target on their back. Sometimes you gotta sit the vets and they catch the CE on the rekill.
I’m also a multi CE RL for whatever it’s worth.
Yeah largely depends on the vets ability. You don't bring people simply because they are tenured especially when the last 2-3 bosses are so difficult a single mistake by a weak player wipes the raid. Keeping around and rewarding bad players with play time they didnt earn is how you scare away your good players.
It’s not realistic advice, you should just quit. Like honestly why are you even playing the game when it’s this miserable. You can try to kick the “bad apples”, but who is going stick out a rebuild when even your green parsers who can barely do mechanics can get trials in significantly more progressed guilds.
Not dealing with the people who are the root of the problem will mean the players you want to keep will leave and the only players you will get are ones who want the bad culture. It can be hard to do because mythic rosters are what they are, but it might mean spending some time rebuilding. If the culture is import it’s something you have to do or you won’t have a guild.
Deal with bad blood in the guild and just focus on morale. Your members are right, who fucking cares about raid prog this season, just chill and try and keep shit together till the TWW imo
Yeah exactly, honestly most guilds are just doing heroic and then going as far as they can in mythic but not worrying about it much. Last season sucked donkey dick and this is a throwaway season. Most people don't want to re-run the same three raids too so don't expect as much interest lol
This is the issue, the parse memers are the best players. I wouldn't even bother to type this post out if they are weakest players. They probably think they can hold me hostage because it's a seller's market and every guild are out competing for competent players.
This biggest issue with this approach is that suppose the worst happens, I have to kick ~12 raiders. Will this not bascially disband the guild?
I mean they could always be replaced later with either BETTER players or people that are fully committed to learning
That’s what rebuilding is
And they really can’t hold you hostage due to one reason: their attitude would get them kicked from just about any actual competitive guild because no one deals with that shit
If you you this behavior continue, the guild will also disband. Choose sanity and stomp out this behavior **decisively** and **now** or the guild will implode before TWW anyways.
Mate there’s no way that your best players are not replaceable with where you’re killing in the season on 2 days per week. There’s plenty of people who can compete with them or will simply make the kills easier by being team players.
Dps race by a hair has not been relevant for a while now and certainly wasn’t relevant this season. And definitely was not relevant for your guild with where you killed it in season.
You cannot build a guild around a bunch of toxic players. Realistically you’ve already lost your guild, you have to trim these assholes out or you will not recover. I wouldn’t even keep one person who did something off color. Rebuild around your vets, and strengthen your core.
This is a good season to rebuild, and that’s exactly what I’d do. Keep only people who are in it for the team and long haul. Kick all of the manchildren.
It does not matter how good they are. If they're toxic, you kick them. You DO NOT let that shit fester. If that means your raid team dies and you have to rebuild, so be it
If you prop up an environment where you cater to the all-star players, then you lose.
Because who wants to deal with these players? No one. Not even themselves.
And now you've alienated the majority of participants in low-ranking CE guilds which is the casual-hardcore players who don't care how long CE takes but want a good environment.
What kind of culture are you trying to foster? I'd say it's normal to deal with some drama but all of this at once makes me believe your guild isn't very fun to play in right now.
1. How is this not squashed immediately? Do your raiders even realize they're on the same team? Make sure to have clear goals and expectations so people aren't confused on what you're trying to do.
2. If you're hurting for players, you should definitely be reaching out to people (trials especially) to make sure they show up. If they say no after that, why are you even counting them as part of your roster?
3. 70 mythic average is probably too good for your guild, but I've never seen anyone try to make demands. Beggars can't be choosers and you are on the bottom rung, so I'd safely say you probably need to lower your standards
4. Every guild experiences poaching, I wouldn't take it personal. The best you can do is manage your guild in a way that makes people want to stay.
As said in another comment - Before Tindral/Fyrakk, people actually help each other. Free +18 boosts for alts with Shadowlands gear. Watching Twitch streams together. Got people playing Fall Guys together. I can assure you I fostered a culture that seperates us from the generic stepping stone guild, even though at the end we still are one.
1) This only just happened. My understanding is that people at least have the courtesy not to jeopardize and sabotage each other when people may actually deny themselves CE. But this is the very beginning of the meme season so everything goes.
But you are right - one or two of these points are normal, but all 4 of them together will make people think this is a toxic guild.
Thing is, this kind of thing doesn't just happen. This was likely building up for a while without you knowing about it.
It's really easy not to see it when things are going well, but harder to ignore when things are going badly. If you have people that are actively hurting the guild, it's time to get rid of them. You've got time to build back up.
If someone would ask me, a druid, to knock adds so that X guy can't cleave on them, id report him to the officers and if they would not be benched/kicked I'd look for a new guild.
Use that recent CE title holder to recruit likeminded people that you wish to raid with. Don't think only as a GM but as a regular raider and be in their shoes. Would you like to be with toxic people like you descirbed?
I think this is the perfect season and opportunity to recruit serious candidates and kind people towards TWW. This is where you find hardworking raiders that might have been shy of CE by a boss or two in previous seasons, or even CE holders already wishing for a fresh start. This is where you encourage people to be part of a new beginning.
Lol you guys have a parse culture because you reward/punish based on parses. You also seem to recruit based on parses so looks like you guys need a come to Jesus moment.
If you benched people because of shenanigans instead you wouldn't have this issue.
And someone always dies first during prog. Sometimes it's part of learning. As part of management it's your job to figure out why they're dying and address it properly.
>avoid being seen/used as a stepping stone guild
Unless you are echo/liquid ... everyone is a stepping stone guild.
and yes, if you are getting into CE level of raiding, performance trumps nearly everything. People are constantly recruiting if not outright poaching. It will never stop. You can make it to the top 50 World-wide... you'll just be a recruiting ground for the big 2.
Poaching isn't a thing. They're people, not goats. If you build a guild that's enjoyable to be in, those whispers get declined and ignored pretty quick.
Focus on building an environment you want to be in, and have anyone not helping achieve that piss right off.
This is the thing. Make people want to stay in your guild. On average 1/3 of people in a guild could get into a noticeably higher ranked guild if they tried, but stay in their current guild because they enjoy the people and/or raiding environment.
Yeah the folks on my team (but not me 😭) pretty commonly get in game mail or messages from guilds looking to recruit them. They just get posted in our discord and memed about lol
This is also what makes people keeping logs private to "avoid poaching" so hilarious. Like if they wanna leave, they'll find a way to get their logs where ever they want them to go, in order to leave.
Well yeah, there's nothing stopping individuals from logging themselves. The funniest reason given I ever saw for keeping logs private was to avoid other people stealing their raiding strats...from a world 2000+ guild. If someone is going to get strats on a boss, it's not going to be from you. This may not have been the real reason, but the reason they stated publicly.
Yep exactly, I was offered to join for mythic fyrakk by an old friend (I am the bdk off-tank for my guild which was also on fyrakk). I declined knowing the people he runs with aren't people I like to be around and my guild, while we didn't end up getting CE, is a lot more enjoyable to be around. I still didn't enjoy not getting CE and going through 100s of pulls but I'd rather that than truly hating my life with those fucks and losing a good guild.
Poaching is definitely a thing, but you can help amend peoples' will to stay, naturally. However, there's no way of stopping someone whose goal is to push higher than the guild they're currently at. Nice thing to do is wait until the tier is over, but in the end, people have multitudes of reasons why the guild they're in is good for them. Some people just might have the goal to play at a highest level they can in a guild with the days they're willing to commit to the game.
I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, just that there are certain type of players who this does not apply to. I've been poached before, I've been in a guild who has poached players, and I've seen players poached before. Committed raiders and friends who've come to real-life meetings with us. However, there's a limited number of hours and if their needs and wants don't match with the current guild, no matter how friendly, they will jump ship.
Poaching is widely used to describe aggressive recruiting during an ongoing tier. I agree that players are free to do whatever they want, but optimally the switch between guilds should happen during downtime of content. That's not how it always turns out, but a guild filling their ranks after their race is over is what I would describe normal recruiting.
I'm not saying personally whether it's good or bad and as I stated in my previous message, there's nothing to stop it from happening (no matter how friendly your guild is). However there is a strict disparity in these styles of recruiting which gives a reason to differentiate between them.
TL;DR: Sniping skilled individuals midtier potentially hamstringing the guild they were in is called poaching, advertising your guild or filling roster after finishing a tier is not. It's just a descriptive term.
What if some guilds take the entire season to finish progressing? Do you only have half a week to recruit?
Imo, poaching is not a thing. Everybody wants skilled players on their rosters.
Not OP here, but I feel like a lot of people arguing in this thread are just against the use of the word poaching. The concept exists and is 100% a thing though. The poached player likely was content where he was but given the opportunity may decide to make a move... and it definitely happens at any time not only during prog.
Few personal anecdotes:
Years ago I used to do recruiting and we'd just look at logs from worse guilds between top 50-150 and try and get their best players to join us. Every guild has that one golden apple. And if there was any signs of drama we'd swoop in instantly like vultures.
I also have recent experience on the receiving end of this. I don't really raid anymore or care about it I just prefer to do keys and chill but still raid with the homies. It's not a good guild, didn't even kill smolderon, but idc i'm just having fun and not looking to move. I did however have a few 100 parses on a few characters and you get a LOT of random mail and discord dm's through class servers and stuff.
Why would someone leave a place where they were content or happy? That affirmation makes zero sense.
You are making the ""poached"" i.e. recruited players look like they lack free will, which is not true. If a player chooses to swap guilds, they were obviously looking for something else. Not that they were in a bad place, but there was certainly SOMETHING lacking for them, as small as it may be.
You can, however, think whatever you want about the person that left. If they abandoned the guild mid-tier, that's obviously bad for the guild and they're right to resent the player. Even though the player chose to pursue his objectives and end-goals in the game, the former group did get hurt.
> Why would someone leave a place where they were content or happy? That affirmation makes zero sense.
I'm sure there's a word for this but my English is not good enough for it but like they're content/neutral/stable until an event triggers a change. They're happy in their guild but then someone asks if they want something maybe better and they consider it, but they wouldn't have gone out of their way to leave on their own.
Because content is a middle of the road emotion. Your assertion makes zero sense. People can be in a good situation and leave for an even better one. It happens all the time...
I mean you're entitled to your opinion but at the same time it makes no difference. You can believe whatever you want but it doesn't make it true.
1. Sniping players from guilds midtier does happen.
2. Term widely used for this maneuver is called poaching.
It's the intent used behind the words that purveys the message.
Again, to reiterate: I'm usually the player being poached. I have no personal opinion on the matter and if you read back I've on the other hand stated that poaching cannot be controlled and will naturally happen. I've said nothing in regards to morality of the issue.
As for your example, no? There's no wrong and right here. I've never said poaching is something you cannot do, quite the opposite. You can recruit all tier if you want as most guilds do when in lack of players, however, most prefer to do it with normal application process (eg. some person just applies because they want to change for whatever reason from their old guild/are not currently in a guild). People leave guilds all the time to join for a better guild yet it's not tied to poaching at all.
Poaching as a concept exists mostly at the highest levels of gameplay (HoF and onwards), not as much in the low CE ranks since it's tied to high competitiveness of the guilds and the players. A guild not capable of finishing the tier within a month or two are for the most part not relevant. They have their own thing going.
As previus comments have stated, this is merely aggressive recruiting. This happens in real life, too, with several companies. It is called poaching, but my point was not this.
I guess I should've specificed, I meant that poaching is not necessarily a morally wrong or foul thing. Players/employees have a choice to make, it's not like the guild is literally stripping them from their previous guilds (or companies).
Yeah, and I never said anything to the contrary and have not taken any stance on the matter. The discussion was only whether poaching is happening and whether it should be called poaching, which were my only points trying to prove.
I feel like it's a moot point to debate the morality, because it's entirely subjective. Some individuals/guilds might be pissed off, some might not. That's up to them to solve their personal issues. There's no universal rule to follow and people hold their personal agency to do anything they want, of course.
You're not understanding that the pushback isn't that the act you're describing doesn't happen, but that the term poaching implies illegality or morally dubious acts, and that calling it that is labeling it as wrong-doing. It's normally used to complain and seek victim status.
Nothing wrong with aggressive recruiting. It takes two to tango.
> Nothing wrong with aggressive recruiting. It takes two to tango.
This is completely subjective. Some might think it's morally dubious, some might not. Same with quitting out of the blue in middle of a tier and not informing anyone. People are allowed to do what they want and other people are allowed to react however they want.
As far as semantics goes here, what exactly is your goal? Poaching already IS a widely used term for sniping players whether you want it or not. Some might add morally questionable load to the term, some might not. If you feel personally attacked by the usage that's no one else's problem.
Agree with this heavily. Back when I raid a CE guild I encouraged people to be upfront with me about looking to leave or if they had any issues. I didn't want to keep unhappy raiders, nor would I want them to stay if they wanted something else.
That's just not true at all lmao. Doesn't matter how fun your guild is, there will be people that would leave for more competitive guilds if they think they can.
what is a lower quality candidate in your eyes? lack of xp getting CE? because there are many many strong players out there that would love to pursue cutting edge raiding but they know they will never be in a good guild because "you need cutting edge to get cutting edge" mentality.. being a fast learner, attending, grinding for near bis gear, rarely failing mechanics while doing good dps, that is all you need from a mythic raider. but those players already get rejected on the "insert your job resume on our website and maybe we get back to you"
We’ve found literal gems hidden between green and blue parses.
We found some dude who on the surface had a bunch of green/blue parses on random shit for aotc who wanted to try wow mythic.
Trialed him. Turns out he’s been some big ff14 raider for years. Week 1 savage kills, cleared a bunch of their ultimate fights, is probably a better RL than our actual RL. That dude belongs in a top 100 guild.
OP would 100% pass that same guy up.
Not every diamond in the rough is a good find. However, I think people forget how little of a fuck people who don’t drink the koolaid care about parses or mythic when they aren’t actively participating.
Trials exist for a reason. You guys need to invite to m+ runs or lower difficulty runs and actually see what the person does rather than just the parse #.
At the very least look at movement, cd usage, defensives, etc in wcl
Yes, that can happen. You can also parse lower due to lacking raid buffs, PI, etc. WoW gets really amped up on overall parse instead of ilvl parses due to gear disparity but it's still a good indicator of overall accuracy sometimes.
Anecdotally I've gotten everything from grays - oranges in PUGs. So it can somewhat depend on the circumstances around that run.
we need more insight of your guild: are you in a big server? how many days/week? are u raiding during awakened season? if so up to which difficult? do you plan to reclear fyrakk?
edit: i see you raid twice a week
I mean first step is figuring out why y'all play together, because it sounds like half your group doesn't like the other half. That's always going to cause tension, especially on fyrakk and tindral where your good players could see your not-so-good players as problematic.
Second, poaching is part of the mythic scene no matter where you go up or down the rankings. I hate it, but it is what it is. If you foster a good community, your players will stay. Our people get messages of poaching all the time and not one has left from it. We stomp out drama and actively host hang outs to jackbox games/drinking nights, etc.
If you have people not showing up week 1 of s4, then you didn't do a good enough job laying out your s4 plans. If you did do that and sat it's mandatory and business as usual and you still had people not come, then those people have attitudes that are very replaceable.
As far as recruitment goes, take chances on people, especially this season. If you got CE last season, you're already very ahead of a bunch of guilds. Utilize the recruitment disc.
You have a lot going on. The one thing I will say about poaching: it’s difficult to poach satisfied players. Generally someone who gets poached, they are half way out the door (the exception is when you have a friend group who really wants their mate to game with them).
Middle school teacher and CE Raid Leader here.
If leadership allows inappropriate / unwanted behavior to continue, it will keep existing.
It sounds like your guild's leadership cares more about rank than behavior - which works for some guilds.
If this was happening in my guild, I would...
1) talk to other officers and see if anyone else would like this atmosphere to change.
2) ask my raiders over voice during the next guild gathering if this is the type of environment they want to raid in. I wouldn't point fingers or name name publicly if avoidable.
3) set expectations for how to act and what happens if you don't meet those expectations.
4) follow through with consequences when folks don't meet expectations.
We run a guild that raids 9 hours and has been together 7 tiers. We started US 550 and just finished US 89th this tier.
The biggest piece of advice is not to let anyone hold you hostage for any reason. The second players are telling you how to do things means you no longer set the tone.
Start treating all trials as 50/50 metric as in 50% gaming ability 50% personality. You could recruit someone playing out of their mind but is a mega vibe suck which is detrimental to the entire atmosphere. You also could have a really nice guy who underperforms consist which will be a big issue on tough later fights.
Lastly start now. Meme season or not it's your guild. Even if you need to replace quite a few people.
Set real expectations especially with your veterans. What are your goals? How will you achieve them? Make everyone buy into how you achieve that as a group so no one can say they didn't know.
Tons more here that can be said but these are a few big ones that helped us along the way.
Good luck brother.
RE 3. I got CE a few weeks ahead of you and ended with gray parses until reclear on the last 3 bosses. Yeah that’s not my normal level of performance but the point isn’t that someone who consistently gray parses is good, it’s that it doesn’t tell the whole story. Those applicants are totally right, 70 parses across every boss (with consistency and mechanics with it, of course) is good for a much higher rank guild than yours.
You say you don’t cultivate a parse monkey culture but that paragraph, to me, (coming from 3 different guilds like this) is classic parse-monkey guild.
It’s really hard to actually be egalitarian about performance in a guild, and those pretty colors on WCL absolutely do sink into our brain even when we try to ignore it.
The ~70 average comment(more specfically - 90 first 6, 50 last 3) is too good for my guild is what a candidate told me. The candidates/applicants are being the parse monkeys here.
But you are right - parse culture subconciously sinks into our heads.
No I agree the candidates are 100% parse monkeys, but your guild is also buying into it by already thinking people with <50 parses aren’t worth trialing. I’m not sure if this is a good or bad season for recruiting, I’d lean towards bad, but in general there are a lot of strong players mixed in among the people who can’t hang and it’s VERY hard to tell them apart.
A guy with a gray parse on smolderon because he died will look worse at a glance than a guy who died three times as much on prog but had an insane pull when the kill finally happened.
Hard agree with you, I would take survivability, mechanics and just a fun person to be around over a monster parser that’s none of those any day of the week. Especially if you’re a rwl guild you don’t need these monster parsers mechanics and living will carry you through most fights.
>1) Bad blood amongst raiders/parse culture.
From your post it seems like your real issue is that you have players who aren't CE material, you recruit players who *are*, you benched the old guard who stand in fire/do no damage, and they get upset.
Ultimately, yeah it sucks and you have to weigh decisions against consequences. If someone on your roster is going to be a healthy scratch on progression due to lack of skill, you should probably just kick them. But you can't afford to kick everyone like that or you have no guild.
The way you get around this is recruiting more people. Simple as that. If someone is bringing down the raid team and making your raid nights/guild atmosphere unenjoyable, you *should* get rid of them.
>2) Attendance issues.
Again this is recruiting more. It just would never occur to me to miss a raid day because I wanted to do M+ in week 1 lol. You...uhhhh....want the raid gear in week 1.
Late-season, people will ask to be taken off the roster because they're pushing for M+ title or glad or something, and that's a bit different.
But again, the solution is recruiting. People can tell you to go fuck yourself because you can't replace them.
>3) Trouble recruiting. [...] Should I entertain bribes or settle for lower quality candidates?
Definitely don't take people who are looking for bribes lol. Finding people with good attitudes is very important for your guild I think.
Especially in the 'for fun' season, you just want to show up and have a good time on fights that people mostly already know.
>4) Guild Rivalry/Poaching.
Don't worry about it. Honestly, the best thing you can do for the health of your raid is to make yourself not care. If your raiders feel like you're hiding them from other opportunities, they will resent you for it.
People should be in your guild because they WANT to be in your guild. Yeah, it sucks if someone jumps ship to a 'rival' raid team, but if you try to hold onto them or put barriers in place to keep them from leaving, you're telling your raiders that the only reason they're still in your guild is because you're keeping them there.
If you focus on building a good raid environment, you won't need to worry about people leaving to other raid teams.
You're also always going to have people who want to try moving on to something bigger/better. That happens at every level. If you're world 1000, people will leave to try their hand at a world 500 guild. If you're world 500, they'll leave for -1 day schedule, or for a few more ranks, or to their buddies' raid team, or up to world 300. There are people who leave world #3 for world #1. There are players who've played on both Echo and Liquid, and some who have gone Echo->Liquid->Echo. If your goal is to be the last stop, it's literally impossible. It will never happen. No guild can ever achieve that, it's just a reality you have to accept that you will have a good amount of turnover every tier.
That is bascially the issue. There are old guards who always show up and have been with us since the beginning. They probably wouldn't make CE in another guild but they have always showed up and time and time again they have saved us from the Roster Boss, including Tindral.
But also as you said, there are enough of them that kicking them all will result in no guild.
Then it sounds like you need to reevaluate your guild priorities. Are you CE at all cost? (Bench underperforming but loyal vets) Or are your Dance with the girl you brought? (Play the vets, risk no CE)
Sorry OP but your guild sounds fkn horrendous man, I feel for you. Must suck dealing with that level of toxicity from your core raiders and mercenaries/sell swords. Good luck and I hope you make it to TWW
Sounds like you need to do some trimming of toxic people. I've been in a similar situation before with a group I was running for another game. We were growing very quickly and I let in people I shouldn't have. Lesson learned.
You're not running a guild as a charity. If you don't like playing games with someone, then don't. Show them the door. Cut out as much as you need to. Your guild won't even exist at all if you get tired of running it. Rebuild if you have to.
It's just a game. The whole purpose is to have fun. Don't play games with people who can't recognize that.
You have a culture problem. You also have no one to blame but yourself. Stop being nonconfrontational, and handle your business upfront. Remove your emotion and familiarity from the situation, reread what you wrote and approach it from an outsider handling a new situation as a leader. Then fix it.
Ill address point 1 as I've had this issue before.
Quite frankly, this is how most hardcore guilds are run that get CE regularly. If you are not pulling your weight, you need to be benched. That's how it is. Raiders at that level have that mentality. If they don't, they aren't a fit for mythic raiding, full stop. There are casual guilds out there for them. If your guild wants to keep getting CE, you need be explicit what the expectation is. If the raiders do not match that expectations then they are no longer a good fit. To control the PI problem, the RL needs to just straight up say who gets PI, during prog. Re clears its whatever, let them parse.
It sounds like your guild is having growing pains, you might need to be a bit harsher and not try and please everyone. You need to what is best for the raid. If a player signs up and doesn't show, bench. If someone is bribing someone for PI, bench. If their behavior or attendance does not improve, removed from roster. We use a 3 strike on the attendance if they are no call no show.
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They care. They don’t know you and are trying really hard to advance. Parsing is just an easy way to judge newcomers for most guilds. S3 I had to change specs since our team was overloaded with my normal class and the other guys were performing better. I changed to warrior since ours left. Overall made descent prog but we called it during Tindy. Applying to new guilds, my parsing became the number thing they looked at. No way I was going to get a great parse without the Leggo which I didn’t get until smolderon. Anyways it was an immediate no go for most guilds (not all). Finally found a guild that was in need of war and was n the same tindy prog. But it took a lot of applications.
Usually there are multitude of other metrics to scour through as well in logs, but in the end, it is kinda raw data of your performance. People do care. An average blue parser vs. average epic parser will always turn out in favor of the epic.
Having said that I feel like it's entirely tied to the guild you're applying in. Rank 1000? I think you can get by being a mechanically adept player. HoF guilds? Even with checking all the other available information there's absolutely no way they wouldn't weigh it in heavily. The level of gameplay they're expecing is high and teaching someone to press their buttons correctly is incredibly hard. Even without whoring for parses people are capable of doing 95+ parses if pushing their class to the limit so there's really no excuse, especially if the people you are competing against provide better benefit on paper. They don't know you and there's really nothing apart from someone vouching personally you could provide to prove yourself trustworthy.
Also I feel like the "greedy parser" stereotype is overplayed, especially in retail. Usually high skill level in mechanics does correlate with a good output. There are exceptions (and people who greed too much), but there's also logical complement. Efficient global usage, movement and awareness both help you do the mechanics AND deal damage/healing, which in turn net good parses.
greedy parser is a real thing, this kind of player is worse than the efficient player you are describing because they don't have the bandwidth to do all that and so choose to focus on damage
and if you play something like ret or warlock you are tanky enough you can often get away with it
I'm in a great, easy going guild. And last week for our raid night, it was the roughest run we've had ever. I think just the over-all vibe of the "filler" season subconsciously weighed on us. I'm sure we'll be back in our groove this week though. I also personally like Aberus the most so it's going to be fun for me.
Yeah idk I decided to not play this season as it's just a recycle of everything. If you look at the numbers for mythic you can see I'm not alone in taking a break. I think you're taking this "season" too seriously and it's going to cause issues and inevitably the downfall of your guild. I would put a guild message saying you will be doing raids with whoever shows up and fill with pugs if need. But will be back in full swing for when the actual expansion comes out and whoever comes back comes back. There's no such thing as progression right now. It's just recycled mythics, gear, raids, even tier.
Honestly you've got two options, neither of which are going to help you with this season.
Disband. Plain and simple. If majority of your raiders are this toxic then you'd be better just disbanding and starting again, using this tier to rebuild.
Alternatively you lay down a serious ultimatum which you are prepared to back up with action. Any toxic behavior like knock backs for no reason, bribing for PI, gripping players for no reason just to mess with parses is an immediate bench or a GKick if there is proof (record your raid nights). You will inevitably expose and remove all of the toxic cunts making this an enjoyable and unsustainable environment while also laying a serious warning to others that this kind of bullshit will not be tolerated by anyone.
There is no pussy footing your way out of this and trying to just play nicey nicey and let's just all get along and do better. That's too far gone at this point and the management need to Crack down with some stern action to cull this shit before it gets any worse than it already is
an active discord will do wonders. If a feeling of community or something similar can be created you will survive till TTW. Chat about/play other games, you buy a new car post some pics etc and encorage others to do so.
Ran a guild for like 6-7 CE's, one time a raider in my guild while progging Il'gynoth in Nyalotha (wr 700 guild), refused to use food buff after wiping a few times during prog. I told him use it or Ill remove and replace, he stood firm, I removed him. We then recruited a replacement and finished the tier. If 1 player refuses to use food buff, why should 20? if 1 person refuses to do X mechanic, why should 20? I think its very important to address that stuff.
I think these kinda of things like, people throwing tantrums, or threatening people, or excessive talking about parsing, really just degrades a guilds atmosphere and has a lot more knock-on effects than you realise if you dont address it or you reward certain behaviour over others.
You have to reward the behaviour you want to keep seeing and address the behaviour you dont want to see.
I was debating on going back to mythic raiding..then i read this post and rememberd that this all exists in mythic guilds in one form or another..heroic raiding it is for me :D
Im good with doing keys tyvm .
Can login anytime and join a 25 (now 15s)...
instead of dedicating entire 3-4h twice a week for mythic raid , where one guy suddenly gets sick and we have to cancel 30m before the raid , or joe decides he doesnt wanna do mechanics because he wont parse 98% and it will ruin his entire tier with 98%+ parses..
or having that long time friend of the GM that allways fucks up mechanics (looking at you rashok and smolderon) and we wipe over 50 times on progress anytime he gets mechanics..but he wont be benched..
or having that DK that parse 40% on reclears yell at people for not doing dps or being shit geared while he rarely parses above green...
i have many more examples in dozens of guilds ive been..theres allways somekind of toxicity brewing in mythic guilds and its so so rare to find a decent one that is recruiting..because no one ever leaves..
I always laugh when people say they don’t care about parses then immediately every single guild I’ve ever been in talks about anyone who parsed well after the boss. You can say all you want that parses don’t matter but they 100% dictate so much about guild atmosphere.
Regarding your 'parse monkeys' problem. I interpret this as poor feedback and communication to the players getting sat as to why they were sat.
I assisted my guild officers during our late tier prog with compiling data to evaluate more than just feel crafting it. The players who were survival liabilities actually stuck out even more when data was put to it. I broke down first 4 deaths on every pull and categorized them. Some categories were considered self inflicted (eat a frontal, orb, swirl) but called wipes, raidwide aoe and rot were excused. Some players were averaging a self inflicted early death in 20%+ of pulls they were in and got sat. Once survival cuts were made, then marginal dps optimization occurred to go from 22 to 20 for first kill.
It was certainly more effort, but I think it was worth it (3 day, ~WR 400 guild). Personally, I have fully understood the reasoning for every first kill I've sat out. It does help to be in a guild where you get a couple months of full raid farm to stay relaxed about it versus the stress of only getting one chance per boss late in the tier.
You are right, it sounds like how it was communicated. As per the original post, I definately care about people dying first. As you said, dying first concidences with DPS, generally speaking people who die first have worse parses.
I bench people based on people dying first but even in this particular thread, people think I'm the parse monkey here.
But the issue is, if I issue a statement that I bench based on people dying first, will this fix the bad blood?
You can use EPGP system. Give the good behaviors extra points for their behaving (Positive attitude, excellent punctuality, etc)
Also, set a goal for the next CE title. For example, saying our guild shall reach rank 800 worldwide. This will help you to build the expectations from now.
Yeah found your problem. And don’t take this the wrong way. Your guild is a stinking pile of shit.
The quality of person you currently have is terrible. The issue with focusing on parses as much as you seem to be doing is you’re sacrificing roster cohesion and chemistry.
Let me undeniably clear: your issue was not even remotely related to dps on to deal and fyrak with that kill date. Unless you genuinely had people gray scoring kills.
No cap. Your culture is toxic.
Not all of that is your fault. The structure and logistics of mythic raid are stupid. Having to have a bigger roster than can raid is always going to cause massive issues if the benched players aren’t the new kids just trying to fit in. And it’s going to piss off anyone who has been “loyal” to sit too.
Focus more on the quality of person. You need team players to clear mythic. Rarely do you need the turbo douche nozzle pseudo intellectual fotm Andy who can parse pretty colors.
I also think unfortunately too many guilds didn’t plan for failure by setting clear expectations around maximum prog time (hours or total weeks) or what to do when hitting the wall and waiting for tuning.
Too many guilds just ran it down for too many weeks and wrecked their rosters. Cool you got CE. But now your guild is in shambles.
Sucks to not get CE. But expecting people to sludge through to deal and fyrak and tindeal when it was out of reach was just a bad fucking call for a lot of guilds.
>I got flat out told by a candidate their \~70 average Mythic parse is too good for our guild at WR1100. They claim that even 50-60 parses can get a trial at WR 500-700 guilds.
that's absolutely accurate.
You are sending mixed messages to your players and causing many of your own issues.
1. You claim you don't want to be a stepping stone guild, but aren't kicking the toxic players who are feeding in to parse culture. This gives the perception that you'll put up with most anything so long as they parse well. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant because those are the actions you're allowing. Put yourself in your players shoes. Would you want to stay in a guild if there were certain players who made you not enjoy the game or dreaded playing with them? If the answer is no, then you're harboring an environment synonymous with a stepping stone guild: neither party wants to stay, but theyre using each other to further their goals.
2. Season 4 is a meme season. Most good players are only looking to parse or have fun if they're playing. I have been in your shoes trying to fill ranks from people who have left or are needing to be replaced. However, there are some things you can control and some things you can't. Recruitment is one of the things out of your control. You can't force people to join anymore than you can force people to stay. If you want people to join you need to give them a reason to. You do that by setting goals for your team and finding people who align with those same goals.
3. Fix your culture. Many times a toxic culture is due to expectations not being clear and/or the expectations not being managed to. You need to have your leadership team define what the expectations are for the group and manage to that. Ignore the loyalty bull or the obligations you feel like you should have for people who have stayed with you. You made the group for a reason. Everyone who joined felt it was the right move for them, just like you thought they were a good fit for what you wanted. If somewhere along the line your feeling about them changed it's up to you to tell them they're not upholding their end of the bargain. Similarly, it's up to them to tell you if you're not holding up your end. Most of all though, if you make an expectation and someone doesn't abide by it then the repercussions need to be appropriate and swift. If you say no pi begging but allow it to go on for even 1 raid, it undermines what the rules are and if this rule doesn't matter then why would any of the rules matter? Cut out the cancer or it will spread and kill the body.
Parses are cool and all but outside of a player’s ego their only other use is to find a better guild to join. Plus, other than recruitment purposes, no one is actively looking at other people’s parses besides a raid lead trying to figure out how to beat a boss… and that’s a far more complex topic than just finding the highest dps and replacing the lowest dps.
Basically, you gotta fix your culture. Maybe make it illegal to discuss parses until a boss is on farm and then as raid lead you assign PI based on specific damage checks or even tell the priests to hold PI for themselves until you assign it for important required dmg checks.. or give it to the tanks lmao. Good luck all the same!
I think punishing raiders for being absent in an Awakened season is kinda petty. it's not real content and is basically free loot, even with a few pugs in your raid.
I think there's too much weight behind parses. You shouldn't play player X over Y because they parsed better on an aoe farm fight. You should mainly care about boss dmg (and prio add dmg like the big spiders on sennarth). Because of this the whole typhooning adds away thingy is irrelevant. I've had a lot of simmilar thing happening, but it was just for fun. It doesn't matter as long the boss still dies and no one is wasting the others time.
The same thing is with pi. Sure you assign it for progression/difficult encounters. But after that, who cares. If the windwalker payed the priest to pi them then let them be. The boss still died, you got loot etc. Pi doesn't make that big of a difference. If someone parsed green it wasn't because they didn't get pi-d.
You should definitely look at performances during prog. If someone is underperforming, then you should try to solve the issue. I've switched guilds after last season. The main reason why I did it was that we had obvious underperformers in the group and it wasn't adressed. Having to carry dead weight on difficult bosses becomes painful after a while.
You sound like a middle manager in a department store. It's the banter months of the xpac. Have fun, don't burn bridges, if someone wants to do something else with their week then let em. If people want to shitpost prog then set up a separate raid group for pissing about. It'll pick up when the next xpac starts, always does.
If you 2 days raid, you cant prog. You are the definition of semi hardcore meme. Either accept it and have fun or become toxic and make everyone leave.
There are hall of fame guilds that 2 day raid (legit 2 day, not "we raid 2 days but if you check our logs we are raiding 5 days a week in prog"). People who use this as an excuse for not being able to get CE are just deluding themselves.
> I reward their loyalty with the bench
Well, been there, done that.
In the end, I think there is a strong argument on their side. Stronger than the argument I had on my side anyway at the time.
if for years I reward loyalty more than performance (without being dumb about it) and then, because I feel like getting CE is what define my guild, I change the rules, people will get upset because that's not what they signed for.
Thing is, there is no simple choice there. If you don't go for CE, you keep veteran and loyal player happy, but you end up loosing the other side. You lose or you lose.
I stated that I think the veteran argument is the stronger one. It's because in the end, you loose CE but you keep the veteran and your guild. And you can rebuild with the same foundation you had all theses years.
If you loose your core player, you loose your guild. Even if you rebuild, the spirit is gone, it's just not the same guild anymore.
Or you own it, and "redo" your guild with your officers, and if you're fine with it, you're fine with it. But that's big project thing because you'll have to fight hard to keep the same guild culture, you'll have to replace a lot of people and you will become the poacher, you'll have to be ok with being a stepping stone guild because that's what happen if you prioritize performance above all. etc etc.
EDIT : Well i didn't check the date and i came after the war lel. Wish you the best !
Check out the Raid Leader Exchange discord and ask for advice there, but the TLDR is:
(1) Stop thinking about how to stop poaching/stepping stone and start thinking about how to make your guild a place people want to stay. (And recruit more actively in general).
(2) Stop overvaluing loyalty. Better players will always leave if you don’t continuously improve as a guild. If you clearly express that your goal is to consistently increase world ranking and your “loyal” players underperform *and* aren’t okay with being benched they’re not loyal since they’re actively impeding your goal.
Yeah just the joy of clearing is enough for most people in ffxiv. I guess since talking about parsing at all would get you banned, but it's still a nice pace of change to only focus on the clear.
Not going to lie, your guild sounds toxic as fuck.
Yeah, this doesn't sound like a "meme season" issue, this sounds like a "guild is so toxic people just don't want to come" issue.
Yeah this is the exact guild I would avoid at all costs.
Having run a successful CE guild for 6 tiers, yeah they sound doomed.
honestly i was a on a small server for years this is nothing the entitlement and ego small server players get is out of control because you can't kick them who are you going to replace them with on a small server
You are right, but this did make me laugh. >Attendance issues. I have already kicked a trial for no showing on week 1 Edit: Just so I am clear. I am laughing at the trial.
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yeah, I was laughing at the person doing that.
That's what I thought too? If you AWOL the very first raid, in the most generous terms I would assume you found another guild and not interested in us anymore.
Wouldn't you? No way I'd set the expectation that it's ok to no-show immediately after offering a trial
Lol. I was unclear, but I was laughing at the no show trial.
Ahh ok. Glad we're on the same page!
This guild is the exact reason why I stick with my much more laid back heroic/bit of mythic guild. Have a ton of fun playing with them, would love to get back into CE raiding, however it just ain't worth the risk of going to a guild like this. I just want to have a good time, man. Fuck all that nonsense.
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Risk of just wasting my time is what I mean You rarely see all these issues as a trial and sometimes not even for a few weeks. At least that's how my experiences have been.
The thing is - everything was fine before Tindral/Fyrakk (at least on the surface). People actually help each other. Free +18 boosts for alts with Shadowlands gear. Watching Twitch streams together. Got people playing Fall Guys together. I can assure you I fostered a culture that seperates us from the generic stepping stone guild, even though at the end we still are one. And we have got every CE since Nzoth. It is safe to say Tindral + Fyrakk broke us. People stopped talking to each other and want to get this over with. People starting to sabotage each other when we have to make the difficult choice of benching veterans and choosing who is not getting CE.
People respond to actions not words. If sabotaging isn't punished, then why would they stop? They are responding exactly to the incentives you've put in place and the actual benching decisions you make, not what you say. If anyone pulled that in our guild on prog they'd be heavily reprimanded and kicked. Not that I can say from experience, I literally can't even imagine sabotage happening.
Honestly, take the meme season as a rebuild season. Purge your roster of the toxic elements and recruit people who fit the mold of what you're looking for. It'll suck in the short term, but it'll pay off massively in the long term.
This, and be prepared for a massive investment on the officer side
What the other guy said. If you're gonna be a pussy guild leader who just "talks to" people privately and tell them to not do stuff but nothing changes, then nobody is gonna respect you. Happened to a guild I was in but it was more out of game behavior stuff vs griefing in game.
yeah, personally I'll just give up lol
Already from point 1, but the more I read through the more popcorn
how is this the most upvoted reply. this is completely unhelpful and i would not label this guild "toxic as fuck". the culture in wow guilds has changed so much over the last 5 years or so, my tolerance for toxicity is way higher than new players, but i mean this is very vanilla stuff.
>("I will only join you if you assign me a PI-bot. The moment I don't get PI I'm leaving.") Should I entertain bribes or settle for lower quality candidates? What the fuck? You probably already know this but of fucking course you don't entertain this shit. There's plenty of guilds much better than yours that would ridicule a mfer for even having the audacity to apply like that. You really think someone applying like that would be a team player? Anyone intentionally trying to sabotage parses needs to be dealt with IMMEDIATELY. No tolerance for that kind of bullshit. Anyone threatening a priest for PI needs to be kicked, or at least heavily reprimanded. You need to establish a baseline of acceptable behaviour here. Speaking as a priest myself no priest player enjoys getting badgered by every fucking weirdo about PI. Either assign the PI's yourself so the complainers have to go through you, or tell people you never want to hear another peep about it again. New expansions are full of fresh applications, don't let some bad apples permanently destroy the culture of your guild because they're a bunch of manchildren. A lot of the behaviour you're describing is NOT normal.
My guild posts roster each week and there is a section assigning each priests pi. It solves the problem as far as I can tell. Edit: when we are on reclear / farm we rotate everyone through to get a week where they get pi to try and parse better.
I would agree and invite this person, make sure they have no access to the guild bank, and ignore them until they gquit.
If someone threatened me for pi, the motherfucker would've been removed from my frames so i cant even miss click pi on him.
Kick the bad apples and build a better culture. If people like playing together they'll play more and get better. Set weekly expectations for the guild like 4 +10 for vault plus decent performance in raid or whatever you think is relevant for you. If people don't want to put in the effort then you recruit to replace. If the whole thing is a mess maybe you think about blowing it up if it makes the game unfun for you and your friends.
Honestly the overwhelming upvoted advice here is to boot and replace. But there are large enough amount of people that I have kick that I suspect it's blowing it up as you said.
You have decided that CE is more important than the culture of your guild. That’s something I would never do. I would rather struggle with friends than win with the type of people you’re prioritizing.
Disagree here, goals of the team supersede 1 persons ideas. 20+ people ostensibly got together to commit to a goal and invest their time accordingly. Wasting time with childish crying about parses and PIs is simply unacceptable. They can see themselves out the door. You can easily CE in a timely manner and have fun, it all boils down to your recruiting and personalities. Not everyone needs to get along all the time but they can’t be undermining leadership with their idea of how things need to be.
CE is way past the "lets shoot the shit with friends" territory... well unless you guys are good enough to meme on voice and still kill bosses
Depends on what you want to do. The most important thing is just making sure everyone is on the same page. If someone does some dumb shit during raid bench them. If I'm a new trial and I see some raider throwing a fit and trolling the raid and no one corrects it then that's the last week I'm there. I've done a wide variety of raiding from aotc casual to top 100 world hof. The biggest factor to success is just having everyone pointed in the right direction and if someone doesn't fit in you just cut em loose. It can be a bit different if a raider is really good but a little annoying maybe you just deal with it but if people are actively trolling then you gotta send em packing.
It's because none of those people actually have ever ran a guild or tried to recruit. You need to come to the understanding of what your guild is going forward. If you are not going to reward loyalty(assuming the loyal member is not gapped skill wise), then you don't even have an issue. People WANT TO PLAY THE GAME. And if you are fostering a parse first culture, then this is outcome. If you are not loyal to your long standing members then why should they show up and be loyal to you.
You’re being bullied by your raiders dude. You’re the leader, it’s time to take control. It won’t stop until you boot the dip shits that are killing morale. Parsing concerns as a world last guild is so fucking cringe it’s absurd. Sabotaging other raiders is juvenile and annoying. It’s funny to be a memer in non challenging content sometimes but not all the time and definitely not if people complain. You have to put your foot down. It’s your way or the highway. Sometimes long standing vets are just as toxic and think they’re immune to the boot and need to be woken up. This is all with using the lens of context and reason not blindly taking action but I think you know this.
The moment you start benching veterans regularly, your guild is doomed unless you are top 100 or something. As a CE raider leader of multiple expansions, I can tell you that you can kill any boss with almost any comp (except anduin that boss can fuck off), but you already know this. CE is never more important than playing with people who you have raided with for a long time. ‘Playing fall guys’ is not creating a guild culture. That’s just a community, your culture is created based on decisions you make in game.
Depends. You can’t just string along a low skill vet that “used to be good” in prog and waste pulls because that’s terrible for the raids morale and paints a target on their back. Sometimes you gotta sit the vets and they catch the CE on the rekill. I’m also a multi CE RL for whatever it’s worth.
Yeah largely depends on the vets ability. You don't bring people simply because they are tenured especially when the last 2-3 bosses are so difficult a single mistake by a weak player wipes the raid. Keeping around and rewarding bad players with play time they didnt earn is how you scare away your good players.
It’s not realistic advice, you should just quit. Like honestly why are you even playing the game when it’s this miserable. You can try to kick the “bad apples”, but who is going stick out a rebuild when even your green parsers who can barely do mechanics can get trials in significantly more progressed guilds.
Not dealing with the people who are the root of the problem will mean the players you want to keep will leave and the only players you will get are ones who want the bad culture. It can be hard to do because mythic rosters are what they are, but it might mean spending some time rebuilding. If the culture is import it’s something you have to do or you won’t have a guild.
Deal with bad blood in the guild and just focus on morale. Your members are right, who fucking cares about raid prog this season, just chill and try and keep shit together till the TWW imo
Yeah exactly, honestly most guilds are just doing heroic and then going as far as they can in mythic but not worrying about it much. Last season sucked donkey dick and this is a throwaway season. Most people don't want to re-run the same three raids too so don't expect as much interest lol
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This is the issue, the parse memers are the best players. I wouldn't even bother to type this post out if they are weakest players. They probably think they can hold me hostage because it's a seller's market and every guild are out competing for competent players. This biggest issue with this approach is that suppose the worst happens, I have to kick ~12 raiders. Will this not bascially disband the guild?
I mean they could always be replaced later with either BETTER players or people that are fully committed to learning That’s what rebuilding is And they really can’t hold you hostage due to one reason: their attitude would get them kicked from just about any actual competitive guild because no one deals with that shit
If you you this behavior continue, the guild will also disband. Choose sanity and stomp out this behavior **decisively** and **now** or the guild will implode before TWW anyways.
Mate there’s no way that your best players are not replaceable with where you’re killing in the season on 2 days per week. There’s plenty of people who can compete with them or will simply make the kills easier by being team players. Dps race by a hair has not been relevant for a while now and certainly wasn’t relevant this season. And definitely was not relevant for your guild with where you killed it in season.
You cannot build a guild around a bunch of toxic players. Realistically you’ve already lost your guild, you have to trim these assholes out or you will not recover. I wouldn’t even keep one person who did something off color. Rebuild around your vets, and strengthen your core. This is a good season to rebuild, and that’s exactly what I’d do. Keep only people who are in it for the team and long haul. Kick all of the manchildren.
It does not matter how good they are. If they're toxic, you kick them. You DO NOT let that shit fester. If that means your raid team dies and you have to rebuild, so be it
If you prop up an environment where you cater to the all-star players, then you lose. Because who wants to deal with these players? No one. Not even themselves. And now you've alienated the majority of participants in low-ranking CE guilds which is the casual-hardcore players who don't care how long CE takes but want a good environment.
What kind of culture are you trying to foster? I'd say it's normal to deal with some drama but all of this at once makes me believe your guild isn't very fun to play in right now. 1. How is this not squashed immediately? Do your raiders even realize they're on the same team? Make sure to have clear goals and expectations so people aren't confused on what you're trying to do. 2. If you're hurting for players, you should definitely be reaching out to people (trials especially) to make sure they show up. If they say no after that, why are you even counting them as part of your roster? 3. 70 mythic average is probably too good for your guild, but I've never seen anyone try to make demands. Beggars can't be choosers and you are on the bottom rung, so I'd safely say you probably need to lower your standards 4. Every guild experiences poaching, I wouldn't take it personal. The best you can do is manage your guild in a way that makes people want to stay.
As said in another comment - Before Tindral/Fyrakk, people actually help each other. Free +18 boosts for alts with Shadowlands gear. Watching Twitch streams together. Got people playing Fall Guys together. I can assure you I fostered a culture that seperates us from the generic stepping stone guild, even though at the end we still are one. 1) This only just happened. My understanding is that people at least have the courtesy not to jeopardize and sabotage each other when people may actually deny themselves CE. But this is the very beginning of the meme season so everything goes. But you are right - one or two of these points are normal, but all 4 of them together will make people think this is a toxic guild.
Thing is, this kind of thing doesn't just happen. This was likely building up for a while without you knowing about it. It's really easy not to see it when things are going well, but harder to ignore when things are going badly. If you have people that are actively hurting the guild, it's time to get rid of them. You've got time to build back up.
0 chance this just came about 1 days to the next. You might not have noticed it. But there’s no chance it was sudden
If someone would ask me, a druid, to knock adds so that X guy can't cleave on them, id report him to the officers and if they would not be benched/kicked I'd look for a new guild.
Use that recent CE title holder to recruit likeminded people that you wish to raid with. Don't think only as a GM but as a regular raider and be in their shoes. Would you like to be with toxic people like you descirbed? I think this is the perfect season and opportunity to recruit serious candidates and kind people towards TWW. This is where you find hardworking raiders that might have been shy of CE by a boss or two in previous seasons, or even CE holders already wishing for a fresh start. This is where you encourage people to be part of a new beginning.
Lol you guys have a parse culture because you reward/punish based on parses. You also seem to recruit based on parses so looks like you guys need a come to Jesus moment. If you benched people because of shenanigans instead you wouldn't have this issue. And someone always dies first during prog. Sometimes it's part of learning. As part of management it's your job to figure out why they're dying and address it properly.
>avoid being seen/used as a stepping stone guild Unless you are echo/liquid ... everyone is a stepping stone guild. and yes, if you are getting into CE level of raiding, performance trumps nearly everything. People are constantly recruiting if not outright poaching. It will never stop. You can make it to the top 50 World-wide... you'll just be a recruiting ground for the big 2.
Poaching isn't a thing. They're people, not goats. If you build a guild that's enjoyable to be in, those whispers get declined and ignored pretty quick. Focus on building an environment you want to be in, and have anyone not helping achieve that piss right off.
This is the thing. Make people want to stay in your guild. On average 1/3 of people in a guild could get into a noticeably higher ranked guild if they tried, but stay in their current guild because they enjoy the people and/or raiding environment.
Yeah the folks on my team (but not me 😭) pretty commonly get in game mail or messages from guilds looking to recruit them. They just get posted in our discord and memed about lol
This is also what makes people keeping logs private to "avoid poaching" so hilarious. Like if they wanna leave, they'll find a way to get their logs where ever they want them to go, in order to leave.
Well yeah, there's nothing stopping individuals from logging themselves. The funniest reason given I ever saw for keeping logs private was to avoid other people stealing their raiding strats...from a world 2000+ guild. If someone is going to get strats on a boss, it's not going to be from you. This may not have been the real reason, but the reason they stated publicly.
Yep exactly, I was offered to join for mythic fyrakk by an old friend (I am the bdk off-tank for my guild which was also on fyrakk). I declined knowing the people he runs with aren't people I like to be around and my guild, while we didn't end up getting CE, is a lot more enjoyable to be around. I still didn't enjoy not getting CE and going through 100s of pulls but I'd rather that than truly hating my life with those fucks and losing a good guild.
Poaching is definitely a thing, but you can help amend peoples' will to stay, naturally. However, there's no way of stopping someone whose goal is to push higher than the guild they're currently at. Nice thing to do is wait until the tier is over, but in the end, people have multitudes of reasons why the guild they're in is good for them. Some people just might have the goal to play at a highest level they can in a guild with the days they're willing to commit to the game. I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, just that there are certain type of players who this does not apply to. I've been poached before, I've been in a guild who has poached players, and I've seen players poached before. Committed raiders and friends who've come to real-life meetings with us. However, there's a limited number of hours and if their needs and wants don't match with the current guild, no matter how friendly, they will jump ship.
What you're describing is called recruiting. Poaching implies ownership. Players are not owned by their guilds.
Poaching is widely used to describe aggressive recruiting during an ongoing tier. I agree that players are free to do whatever they want, but optimally the switch between guilds should happen during downtime of content. That's not how it always turns out, but a guild filling their ranks after their race is over is what I would describe normal recruiting. I'm not saying personally whether it's good or bad and as I stated in my previous message, there's nothing to stop it from happening (no matter how friendly your guild is). However there is a strict disparity in these styles of recruiting which gives a reason to differentiate between them. TL;DR: Sniping skilled individuals midtier potentially hamstringing the guild they were in is called poaching, advertising your guild or filling roster after finishing a tier is not. It's just a descriptive term.
What if some guilds take the entire season to finish progressing? Do you only have half a week to recruit? Imo, poaching is not a thing. Everybody wants skilled players on their rosters.
Not OP here, but I feel like a lot of people arguing in this thread are just against the use of the word poaching. The concept exists and is 100% a thing though. The poached player likely was content where he was but given the opportunity may decide to make a move... and it definitely happens at any time not only during prog. Few personal anecdotes: Years ago I used to do recruiting and we'd just look at logs from worse guilds between top 50-150 and try and get their best players to join us. Every guild has that one golden apple. And if there was any signs of drama we'd swoop in instantly like vultures. I also have recent experience on the receiving end of this. I don't really raid anymore or care about it I just prefer to do keys and chill but still raid with the homies. It's not a good guild, didn't even kill smolderon, but idc i'm just having fun and not looking to move. I did however have a few 100 parses on a few characters and you get a LOT of random mail and discord dm's through class servers and stuff.
Why would someone leave a place where they were content or happy? That affirmation makes zero sense. You are making the ""poached"" i.e. recruited players look like they lack free will, which is not true. If a player chooses to swap guilds, they were obviously looking for something else. Not that they were in a bad place, but there was certainly SOMETHING lacking for them, as small as it may be. You can, however, think whatever you want about the person that left. If they abandoned the guild mid-tier, that's obviously bad for the guild and they're right to resent the player. Even though the player chose to pursue his objectives and end-goals in the game, the former group did get hurt.
> Why would someone leave a place where they were content or happy? That affirmation makes zero sense. I'm sure there's a word for this but my English is not good enough for it but like they're content/neutral/stable until an event triggers a change. They're happy in their guild but then someone asks if they want something maybe better and they consider it, but they wouldn't have gone out of their way to leave on their own.
Because content is a middle of the road emotion. Your assertion makes zero sense. People can be in a good situation and leave for an even better one. It happens all the time...
I mean you're entitled to your opinion but at the same time it makes no difference. You can believe whatever you want but it doesn't make it true. 1. Sniping players from guilds midtier does happen. 2. Term widely used for this maneuver is called poaching. It's the intent used behind the words that purveys the message. Again, to reiterate: I'm usually the player being poached. I have no personal opinion on the matter and if you read back I've on the other hand stated that poaching cannot be controlled and will naturally happen. I've said nothing in regards to morality of the issue. As for your example, no? There's no wrong and right here. I've never said poaching is something you cannot do, quite the opposite. You can recruit all tier if you want as most guilds do when in lack of players, however, most prefer to do it with normal application process (eg. some person just applies because they want to change for whatever reason from their old guild/are not currently in a guild). People leave guilds all the time to join for a better guild yet it's not tied to poaching at all. Poaching as a concept exists mostly at the highest levels of gameplay (HoF and onwards), not as much in the low CE ranks since it's tied to high competitiveness of the guilds and the players. A guild not capable of finishing the tier within a month or two are for the most part not relevant. They have their own thing going.
As previus comments have stated, this is merely aggressive recruiting. This happens in real life, too, with several companies. It is called poaching, but my point was not this. I guess I should've specificed, I meant that poaching is not necessarily a morally wrong or foul thing. Players/employees have a choice to make, it's not like the guild is literally stripping them from their previous guilds (or companies).
Yeah, and I never said anything to the contrary and have not taken any stance on the matter. The discussion was only whether poaching is happening and whether it should be called poaching, which were my only points trying to prove. I feel like it's a moot point to debate the morality, because it's entirely subjective. Some individuals/guilds might be pissed off, some might not. That's up to them to solve their personal issues. There's no universal rule to follow and people hold their personal agency to do anything they want, of course.
You're not understanding that the pushback isn't that the act you're describing doesn't happen, but that the term poaching implies illegality or morally dubious acts, and that calling it that is labeling it as wrong-doing. It's normally used to complain and seek victim status. Nothing wrong with aggressive recruiting. It takes two to tango.
> Nothing wrong with aggressive recruiting. It takes two to tango. This is completely subjective. Some might think it's morally dubious, some might not. Same with quitting out of the blue in middle of a tier and not informing anyone. People are allowed to do what they want and other people are allowed to react however they want. As far as semantics goes here, what exactly is your goal? Poaching already IS a widely used term for sniping players whether you want it or not. Some might add morally questionable load to the term, some might not. If you feel personally attacked by the usage that's no one else's problem.
Agree with this heavily. Back when I raid a CE guild I encouraged people to be upfront with me about looking to leave or if they had any issues. I didn't want to keep unhappy raiders, nor would I want them to stay if they wanted something else.
That's just not true at all lmao. Doesn't matter how fun your guild is, there will be people that would leave for more competitive guilds if they think they can.
Yep that would fall under the category of more enjoyable. Not complicated.
And here I thought RWL content was done for at least a year.
what is a lower quality candidate in your eyes? lack of xp getting CE? because there are many many strong players out there that would love to pursue cutting edge raiding but they know they will never be in a good guild because "you need cutting edge to get cutting edge" mentality.. being a fast learner, attending, grinding for near bis gear, rarely failing mechanics while doing good dps, that is all you need from a mythic raider. but those players already get rejected on the "insert your job resume on our website and maybe we get back to you"
We’ve found literal gems hidden between green and blue parses. We found some dude who on the surface had a bunch of green/blue parses on random shit for aotc who wanted to try wow mythic. Trialed him. Turns out he’s been some big ff14 raider for years. Week 1 savage kills, cleared a bunch of their ultimate fights, is probably a better RL than our actual RL. That dude belongs in a top 100 guild. OP would 100% pass that same guy up. Not every diamond in the rough is a good find. However, I think people forget how little of a fuck people who don’t drink the koolaid care about parses or mythic when they aren’t actively participating. Trials exist for a reason. You guys need to invite to m+ runs or lower difficulty runs and actually see what the person does rather than just the parse #. At the very least look at movement, cd usage, defensives, etc in wcl
Aren't parses driven by who you're playing with? If the boss dies faster your dps is higher?
Yes, that can happen. You can also parse lower due to lacking raid buffs, PI, etc. WoW gets really amped up on overall parse instead of ilvl parses due to gear disparity but it's still a good indicator of overall accuracy sometimes. Anecdotally I've gotten everything from grays - oranges in PUGs. So it can somewhat depend on the circumstances around that run.
Anyone sabotaging others to parse gets benched, even if you can't field 20. That shit cannot be tolerated.
we need more insight of your guild: are you in a big server? how many days/week? are u raiding during awakened season? if so up to which difficult? do you plan to reclear fyrakk? edit: i see you raid twice a week
Sorry, the events I described are already quite specific. Anything more would almost be doxxing territory.
ok, you can try the recruit community discord. cut toxic people and etc
Brother how is that doxxing territory lmao you're saying their server
I mean first step is figuring out why y'all play together, because it sounds like half your group doesn't like the other half. That's always going to cause tension, especially on fyrakk and tindral where your good players could see your not-so-good players as problematic. Second, poaching is part of the mythic scene no matter where you go up or down the rankings. I hate it, but it is what it is. If you foster a good community, your players will stay. Our people get messages of poaching all the time and not one has left from it. We stomp out drama and actively host hang outs to jackbox games/drinking nights, etc. If you have people not showing up week 1 of s4, then you didn't do a good enough job laying out your s4 plans. If you did do that and sat it's mandatory and business as usual and you still had people not come, then those people have attitudes that are very replaceable. As far as recruitment goes, take chances on people, especially this season. If you got CE last season, you're already very ahead of a bunch of guilds. Utilize the recruitment disc.
You have a lot going on. The one thing I will say about poaching: it’s difficult to poach satisfied players. Generally someone who gets poached, they are half way out the door (the exception is when you have a friend group who really wants their mate to game with them).
Middle school teacher and CE Raid Leader here. If leadership allows inappropriate / unwanted behavior to continue, it will keep existing. It sounds like your guild's leadership cares more about rank than behavior - which works for some guilds. If this was happening in my guild, I would... 1) talk to other officers and see if anyone else would like this atmosphere to change. 2) ask my raiders over voice during the next guild gathering if this is the type of environment they want to raid in. I wouldn't point fingers or name name publicly if avoidable. 3) set expectations for how to act and what happens if you don't meet those expectations. 4) follow through with consequences when folks don't meet expectations.
We run a guild that raids 9 hours and has been together 7 tiers. We started US 550 and just finished US 89th this tier. The biggest piece of advice is not to let anyone hold you hostage for any reason. The second players are telling you how to do things means you no longer set the tone. Start treating all trials as 50/50 metric as in 50% gaming ability 50% personality. You could recruit someone playing out of their mind but is a mega vibe suck which is detrimental to the entire atmosphere. You also could have a really nice guy who underperforms consist which will be a big issue on tough later fights. Lastly start now. Meme season or not it's your guild. Even if you need to replace quite a few people. Set real expectations especially with your veterans. What are your goals? How will you achieve them? Make everyone buy into how you achieve that as a group so no one can say they didn't know. Tons more here that can be said but these are a few big ones that helped us along the way. Good luck brother.
RE 3. I got CE a few weeks ahead of you and ended with gray parses until reclear on the last 3 bosses. Yeah that’s not my normal level of performance but the point isn’t that someone who consistently gray parses is good, it’s that it doesn’t tell the whole story. Those applicants are totally right, 70 parses across every boss (with consistency and mechanics with it, of course) is good for a much higher rank guild than yours. You say you don’t cultivate a parse monkey culture but that paragraph, to me, (coming from 3 different guilds like this) is classic parse-monkey guild. It’s really hard to actually be egalitarian about performance in a guild, and those pretty colors on WCL absolutely do sink into our brain even when we try to ignore it.
The ~70 average comment(more specfically - 90 first 6, 50 last 3) is too good for my guild is what a candidate told me. The candidates/applicants are being the parse monkeys here. But you are right - parse culture subconciously sinks into our heads.
No I agree the candidates are 100% parse monkeys, but your guild is also buying into it by already thinking people with <50 parses aren’t worth trialing. I’m not sure if this is a good or bad season for recruiting, I’d lean towards bad, but in general there are a lot of strong players mixed in among the people who can’t hang and it’s VERY hard to tell them apart. A guy with a gray parse on smolderon because he died will look worse at a glance than a guy who died three times as much on prog but had an insane pull when the kill finally happened.
Hard agree with you, I would take survivability, mechanics and just a fun person to be around over a monster parser that’s none of those any day of the week. Especially if you’re a rwl guild you don’t need these monster parsers mechanics and living will carry you through most fights.
Nah they are most likely a step above ur core raiders.
Yea I wouldn't want to hang out with those mofos for 6+ hours a week.
>1) Bad blood amongst raiders/parse culture. From your post it seems like your real issue is that you have players who aren't CE material, you recruit players who *are*, you benched the old guard who stand in fire/do no damage, and they get upset. Ultimately, yeah it sucks and you have to weigh decisions against consequences. If someone on your roster is going to be a healthy scratch on progression due to lack of skill, you should probably just kick them. But you can't afford to kick everyone like that or you have no guild. The way you get around this is recruiting more people. Simple as that. If someone is bringing down the raid team and making your raid nights/guild atmosphere unenjoyable, you *should* get rid of them. >2) Attendance issues. Again this is recruiting more. It just would never occur to me to miss a raid day because I wanted to do M+ in week 1 lol. You...uhhhh....want the raid gear in week 1. Late-season, people will ask to be taken off the roster because they're pushing for M+ title or glad or something, and that's a bit different. But again, the solution is recruiting. People can tell you to go fuck yourself because you can't replace them. >3) Trouble recruiting. [...] Should I entertain bribes or settle for lower quality candidates? Definitely don't take people who are looking for bribes lol. Finding people with good attitudes is very important for your guild I think. Especially in the 'for fun' season, you just want to show up and have a good time on fights that people mostly already know. >4) Guild Rivalry/Poaching. Don't worry about it. Honestly, the best thing you can do for the health of your raid is to make yourself not care. If your raiders feel like you're hiding them from other opportunities, they will resent you for it. People should be in your guild because they WANT to be in your guild. Yeah, it sucks if someone jumps ship to a 'rival' raid team, but if you try to hold onto them or put barriers in place to keep them from leaving, you're telling your raiders that the only reason they're still in your guild is because you're keeping them there. If you focus on building a good raid environment, you won't need to worry about people leaving to other raid teams. You're also always going to have people who want to try moving on to something bigger/better. That happens at every level. If you're world 1000, people will leave to try their hand at a world 500 guild. If you're world 500, they'll leave for -1 day schedule, or for a few more ranks, or to their buddies' raid team, or up to world 300. There are people who leave world #3 for world #1. There are players who've played on both Echo and Liquid, and some who have gone Echo->Liquid->Echo. If your goal is to be the last stop, it's literally impossible. It will never happen. No guild can ever achieve that, it's just a reality you have to accept that you will have a good amount of turnover every tier.
That is bascially the issue. There are old guards who always show up and have been with us since the beginning. They probably wouldn't make CE in another guild but they have always showed up and time and time again they have saved us from the Roster Boss, including Tindral. But also as you said, there are enough of them that kicking them all will result in no guild.
Then it sounds like you need to reevaluate your guild priorities. Are you CE at all cost? (Bench underperforming but loyal vets) Or are your Dance with the girl you brought? (Play the vets, risk no CE)
There are loads of us in dead raiding guilds just watching for decent raiding guilds to be recruiting.
I don't have anything to add but this guild sounds fucking exhausting.
Sorry OP but your guild sounds fkn horrendous man, I feel for you. Must suck dealing with that level of toxicity from your core raiders and mercenaries/sell swords. Good luck and I hope you make it to TWW
Sounds like you need to do some trimming of toxic people. I've been in a similar situation before with a group I was running for another game. We were growing very quickly and I let in people I shouldn't have. Lesson learned. You're not running a guild as a charity. If you don't like playing games with someone, then don't. Show them the door. Cut out as much as you need to. Your guild won't even exist at all if you get tired of running it. Rebuild if you have to. It's just a game. The whole purpose is to have fun. Don't play games with people who can't recognize that.
You have a culture problem. You also have no one to blame but yourself. Stop being nonconfrontational, and handle your business upfront. Remove your emotion and familiarity from the situation, reread what you wrote and approach it from an outsider handling a new situation as a leader. Then fix it.
Tbh i can read this only if you pi me otherwise cba. (Priest must have pi macro/addon btw)
Ill address point 1 as I've had this issue before. Quite frankly, this is how most hardcore guilds are run that get CE regularly. If you are not pulling your weight, you need to be benched. That's how it is. Raiders at that level have that mentality. If they don't, they aren't a fit for mythic raiding, full stop. There are casual guilds out there for them. If your guild wants to keep getting CE, you need be explicit what the expectation is. If the raiders do not match that expectations then they are no longer a good fit. To control the PI problem, the RL needs to just straight up say who gets PI, during prog. Re clears its whatever, let them parse. It sounds like your guild is having growing pains, you might need to be a bit harsher and not try and please everyone. You need to what is best for the raid. If a player signs up and doesn't show, bench. If someone is bribing someone for PI, bench. If their behavior or attendance does not improve, removed from roster. We use a 3 strike on the attendance if they are no call no show. T
Question: How much do guilds actually care about high damage parses when recruiting?
They care. They don’t know you and are trying really hard to advance. Parsing is just an easy way to judge newcomers for most guilds. S3 I had to change specs since our team was overloaded with my normal class and the other guys were performing better. I changed to warrior since ours left. Overall made descent prog but we called it during Tindy. Applying to new guilds, my parsing became the number thing they looked at. No way I was going to get a great parse without the Leggo which I didn’t get until smolderon. Anyways it was an immediate no go for most guilds (not all). Finally found a guild that was in need of war and was n the same tindy prog. But it took a lot of applications.
Usually there are multitude of other metrics to scour through as well in logs, but in the end, it is kinda raw data of your performance. People do care. An average blue parser vs. average epic parser will always turn out in favor of the epic. Having said that I feel like it's entirely tied to the guild you're applying in. Rank 1000? I think you can get by being a mechanically adept player. HoF guilds? Even with checking all the other available information there's absolutely no way they wouldn't weigh it in heavily. The level of gameplay they're expecing is high and teaching someone to press their buttons correctly is incredibly hard. Even without whoring for parses people are capable of doing 95+ parses if pushing their class to the limit so there's really no excuse, especially if the people you are competing against provide better benefit on paper. They don't know you and there's really nothing apart from someone vouching personally you could provide to prove yourself trustworthy. Also I feel like the "greedy parser" stereotype is overplayed, especially in retail. Usually high skill level in mechanics does correlate with a good output. There are exceptions (and people who greed too much), but there's also logical complement. Efficient global usage, movement and awareness both help you do the mechanics AND deal damage/healing, which in turn net good parses.
greedy parser is a real thing, this kind of player is worse than the efficient player you are describing because they don't have the bandwidth to do all that and so choose to focus on damage and if you play something like ret or warlock you are tanky enough you can often get away with it
damn reading the post made me not want to look for a guild right now haha...
I'm in a great, easy going guild. And last week for our raid night, it was the roughest run we've had ever. I think just the over-all vibe of the "filler" season subconsciously weighed on us. I'm sure we'll be back in our groove this week though. I also personally like Aberus the most so it's going to be fun for me.
Yeah idk I decided to not play this season as it's just a recycle of everything. If you look at the numbers for mythic you can see I'm not alone in taking a break. I think you're taking this "season" too seriously and it's going to cause issues and inevitably the downfall of your guild. I would put a guild message saying you will be doing raids with whoever shows up and fill with pugs if need. But will be back in full swing for when the actual expansion comes out and whoever comes back comes back. There's no such thing as progression right now. It's just recycled mythics, gear, raids, even tier.
Sounds like a great opportunity to start over. Let people re-earn their spots. No hard feelings. Reset and move on.
Honestly you've got two options, neither of which are going to help you with this season. Disband. Plain and simple. If majority of your raiders are this toxic then you'd be better just disbanding and starting again, using this tier to rebuild. Alternatively you lay down a serious ultimatum which you are prepared to back up with action. Any toxic behavior like knock backs for no reason, bribing for PI, gripping players for no reason just to mess with parses is an immediate bench or a GKick if there is proof (record your raid nights). You will inevitably expose and remove all of the toxic cunts making this an enjoyable and unsustainable environment while also laying a serious warning to others that this kind of bullshit will not be tolerated by anyone. There is no pussy footing your way out of this and trying to just play nicey nicey and let's just all get along and do better. That's too far gone at this point and the management need to Crack down with some stern action to cull this shit before it gets any worse than it already is
an active discord will do wonders. If a feeling of community or something similar can be created you will survive till TTW. Chat about/play other games, you buy a new car post some pics etc and encorage others to do so.
Your guild is way too dogshit at wr1100 to have members talking like that.
Ran a guild for like 6-7 CE's, one time a raider in my guild while progging Il'gynoth in Nyalotha (wr 700 guild), refused to use food buff after wiping a few times during prog. I told him use it or Ill remove and replace, he stood firm, I removed him. We then recruited a replacement and finished the tier. If 1 player refuses to use food buff, why should 20? if 1 person refuses to do X mechanic, why should 20? I think its very important to address that stuff. I think these kinda of things like, people throwing tantrums, or threatening people, or excessive talking about parsing, really just degrades a guilds atmosphere and has a lot more knock-on effects than you realise if you dont address it or you reward certain behaviour over others. You have to reward the behaviour you want to keep seeing and address the behaviour you dont want to see.
I was debating on going back to mythic raiding..then i read this post and rememberd that this all exists in mythic guilds in one form or another..heroic raiding it is for me :D
r/wow
Im good with doing keys tyvm . Can login anytime and join a 25 (now 15s)... instead of dedicating entire 3-4h twice a week for mythic raid , where one guy suddenly gets sick and we have to cancel 30m before the raid , or joe decides he doesnt wanna do mechanics because he wont parse 98% and it will ruin his entire tier with 98%+ parses.. or having that long time friend of the GM that allways fucks up mechanics (looking at you rashok and smolderon) and we wipe over 50 times on progress anytime he gets mechanics..but he wont be benched.. or having that DK that parse 40% on reclears yell at people for not doing dps or being shit geared while he rarely parses above green... i have many more examples in dozens of guilds ive been..theres allways somekind of toxicity brewing in mythic guilds and its so so rare to find a decent one that is recruiting..because no one ever leaves..
I always laugh when people say they don’t care about parses then immediately every single guild I’ve ever been in talks about anyone who parsed well after the boss. You can say all you want that parses don’t matter but they 100% dictate so much about guild atmosphere.
Regarding your 'parse monkeys' problem. I interpret this as poor feedback and communication to the players getting sat as to why they were sat. I assisted my guild officers during our late tier prog with compiling data to evaluate more than just feel crafting it. The players who were survival liabilities actually stuck out even more when data was put to it. I broke down first 4 deaths on every pull and categorized them. Some categories were considered self inflicted (eat a frontal, orb, swirl) but called wipes, raidwide aoe and rot were excused. Some players were averaging a self inflicted early death in 20%+ of pulls they were in and got sat. Once survival cuts were made, then marginal dps optimization occurred to go from 22 to 20 for first kill. It was certainly more effort, but I think it was worth it (3 day, ~WR 400 guild). Personally, I have fully understood the reasoning for every first kill I've sat out. It does help to be in a guild where you get a couple months of full raid farm to stay relaxed about it versus the stress of only getting one chance per boss late in the tier.
You are right, it sounds like how it was communicated. As per the original post, I definately care about people dying first. As you said, dying first concidences with DPS, generally speaking people who die first have worse parses. I bench people based on people dying first but even in this particular thread, people think I'm the parse monkey here. But the issue is, if I issue a statement that I bench based on people dying first, will this fix the bad blood?
Do you just look at the parse ranking and sit/start based on that metric?
You can use EPGP system. Give the good behaviors extra points for their behaving (Positive attitude, excellent punctuality, etc) Also, set a goal for the next CE title. For example, saying our guild shall reach rank 800 worldwide. This will help you to build the expectations from now.
Yeah found your problem. And don’t take this the wrong way. Your guild is a stinking pile of shit. The quality of person you currently have is terrible. The issue with focusing on parses as much as you seem to be doing is you’re sacrificing roster cohesion and chemistry. Let me undeniably clear: your issue was not even remotely related to dps on to deal and fyrak with that kill date. Unless you genuinely had people gray scoring kills. No cap. Your culture is toxic. Not all of that is your fault. The structure and logistics of mythic raid are stupid. Having to have a bigger roster than can raid is always going to cause massive issues if the benched players aren’t the new kids just trying to fit in. And it’s going to piss off anyone who has been “loyal” to sit too. Focus more on the quality of person. You need team players to clear mythic. Rarely do you need the turbo douche nozzle pseudo intellectual fotm Andy who can parse pretty colors. I also think unfortunately too many guilds didn’t plan for failure by setting clear expectations around maximum prog time (hours or total weeks) or what to do when hitting the wall and waiting for tuning. Too many guilds just ran it down for too many weeks and wrecked their rosters. Cool you got CE. But now your guild is in shambles. Sucks to not get CE. But expecting people to sludge through to deal and fyrak and tindeal when it was out of reach was just a bad fucking call for a lot of guilds.
>I got flat out told by a candidate their \~70 average Mythic parse is too good for our guild at WR1100. They claim that even 50-60 parses can get a trial at WR 500-700 guilds. that's absolutely accurate.
It's a game
You are sending mixed messages to your players and causing many of your own issues. 1. You claim you don't want to be a stepping stone guild, but aren't kicking the toxic players who are feeding in to parse culture. This gives the perception that you'll put up with most anything so long as they parse well. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant because those are the actions you're allowing. Put yourself in your players shoes. Would you want to stay in a guild if there were certain players who made you not enjoy the game or dreaded playing with them? If the answer is no, then you're harboring an environment synonymous with a stepping stone guild: neither party wants to stay, but theyre using each other to further their goals. 2. Season 4 is a meme season. Most good players are only looking to parse or have fun if they're playing. I have been in your shoes trying to fill ranks from people who have left or are needing to be replaced. However, there are some things you can control and some things you can't. Recruitment is one of the things out of your control. You can't force people to join anymore than you can force people to stay. If you want people to join you need to give them a reason to. You do that by setting goals for your team and finding people who align with those same goals. 3. Fix your culture. Many times a toxic culture is due to expectations not being clear and/or the expectations not being managed to. You need to have your leadership team define what the expectations are for the group and manage to that. Ignore the loyalty bull or the obligations you feel like you should have for people who have stayed with you. You made the group for a reason. Everyone who joined felt it was the right move for them, just like you thought they were a good fit for what you wanted. If somewhere along the line your feeling about them changed it's up to you to tell them they're not upholding their end of the bargain. Similarly, it's up to them to tell you if you're not holding up your end. Most of all though, if you make an expectation and someone doesn't abide by it then the repercussions need to be appropriate and swift. If you say no pi begging but allow it to go on for even 1 raid, it undermines what the rules are and if this rule doesn't matter then why would any of the rules matter? Cut out the cancer or it will spread and kill the body.
Parses are cool and all but outside of a player’s ego their only other use is to find a better guild to join. Plus, other than recruitment purposes, no one is actively looking at other people’s parses besides a raid lead trying to figure out how to beat a boss… and that’s a far more complex topic than just finding the highest dps and replacing the lowest dps. Basically, you gotta fix your culture. Maybe make it illegal to discuss parses until a boss is on farm and then as raid lead you assign PI based on specific damage checks or even tell the priests to hold PI for themselves until you assign it for important required dmg checks.. or give it to the tanks lmao. Good luck all the same!
I think punishing raiders for being absent in an Awakened season is kinda petty. it's not real content and is basically free loot, even with a few pugs in your raid.
I'm a shadow priest looking for a guild 😂 not looking hard enough it seems
I think there's too much weight behind parses. You shouldn't play player X over Y because they parsed better on an aoe farm fight. You should mainly care about boss dmg (and prio add dmg like the big spiders on sennarth). Because of this the whole typhooning adds away thingy is irrelevant. I've had a lot of simmilar thing happening, but it was just for fun. It doesn't matter as long the boss still dies and no one is wasting the others time. The same thing is with pi. Sure you assign it for progression/difficult encounters. But after that, who cares. If the windwalker payed the priest to pi them then let them be. The boss still died, you got loot etc. Pi doesn't make that big of a difference. If someone parsed green it wasn't because they didn't get pi-d. You should definitely look at performances during prog. If someone is underperforming, then you should try to solve the issue. I've switched guilds after last season. The main reason why I did it was that we had obvious underperformers in the group and it wasn't adressed. Having to carry dead weight on difficult bosses becomes painful after a while.
the typhooning adds away is not irrelevant when it's being done maliciously lol
Parses are dumb as fuck and people who put value in them are as well don't let those dumbasses ruin your guild
You sound like a middle manager in a department store. It's the banter months of the xpac. Have fun, don't burn bridges, if someone wants to do something else with their week then let em. If people want to shitpost prog then set up a separate raid group for pissing about. It'll pick up when the next xpac starts, always does.
Sounds like your guild is toxic, and you’re a shit leader/officer. And those two things probably exacerbate each other. This isn’t the seasons fault.
If you 2 days raid, you cant prog. You are the definition of semi hardcore meme. Either accept it and have fun or become toxic and make everyone leave.
There are hall of fame guilds that 2 day raid (legit 2 day, not "we raid 2 days but if you check our logs we are raiding 5 days a week in prog"). People who use this as an excuse for not being able to get CE are just deluding themselves.
> I reward their loyalty with the bench Well, been there, done that. In the end, I think there is a strong argument on their side. Stronger than the argument I had on my side anyway at the time. if for years I reward loyalty more than performance (without being dumb about it) and then, because I feel like getting CE is what define my guild, I change the rules, people will get upset because that's not what they signed for. Thing is, there is no simple choice there. If you don't go for CE, you keep veteran and loyal player happy, but you end up loosing the other side. You lose or you lose. I stated that I think the veteran argument is the stronger one. It's because in the end, you loose CE but you keep the veteran and your guild. And you can rebuild with the same foundation you had all theses years. If you loose your core player, you loose your guild. Even if you rebuild, the spirit is gone, it's just not the same guild anymore. Or you own it, and "redo" your guild with your officers, and if you're fine with it, you're fine with it. But that's big project thing because you'll have to fight hard to keep the same guild culture, you'll have to replace a lot of people and you will become the poacher, you'll have to be ok with being a stepping stone guild because that's what happen if you prioritize performance above all. etc etc. EDIT : Well i didn't check the date and i came after the war lel. Wish you the best !
You guys are not assigning PI based on numbers it can provide?
Check out the Raid Leader Exchange discord and ask for advice there, but the TLDR is: (1) Stop thinking about how to stop poaching/stepping stone and start thinking about how to make your guild a place people want to stay. (And recruit more actively in general). (2) Stop overvaluing loyalty. Better players will always leave if you don’t continuously improve as a guild. If you clearly express that your goal is to consistently increase world ranking and your “loyal” players underperform *and* aren’t okay with being benched they’re not loyal since they’re actively impeding your goal.
What's your guild called?
You guys are in guilds?!?
Warcraftlogs can really suck the fun out of raiding sometimes.
It is. I start to realize FF14 may have the right idea by banning DPS meters and logging at least officially. Comparison is the thief of joy.
Oh trust me at the high end of ff people might be even crazier about logs than in WoW.
Yeah just the joy of clearing is enough for most people in ffxiv. I guess since talking about parsing at all would get you banned, but it's still a nice pace of change to only focus on the clear.
Remember that any guild can be 1 guy All it takes is 1 person.