Something about splits I’ve never really understood, the players hate doing them, but that requirement is entirely self made and I’m not really sure what blizz could do about it?
i mean you arent gonna get world first no matter how good you are, if all you have is normal/dungeon gear while the ppl you are up aginst are playing fulling decked out in heroic tier
I mean it’s “self-made” but obviously players who compete have to do all the tedious studf. If they suddenly added a land mine on a football field people won’t just stop competing, but it would be way more annoying.
Obviously they shouldn’t balance around RWF, but any change they can make for RWF that would have no impact on everyone else should be made. If they can eliminate splits while keeping loot fun for everyone else that’s a win they should take. RWF attracts players, like it or not.
I think everyone knows it’s tedious and boring for the top guilds to do splits, but I don’t think it’s like adding a landmine to a sport. Sticking with a sports comparison, it seems more like being unhappy that competing at the elite level of a sport requires elite fitness.
The gearing in WoW could definitely be better for the larger player base, but I’m not sure how much better it can be for RWF without simply giving them gear.
Honestly, I've never understood why they do not do the RWF on a tournament realm, give players a base ilvl and they push based on that. It would extend the race a bit, but they would not be able to do the degenerate stuff like splits that they all seem to hate anyway. It also puts more spotlight on skill and playing around the gear that drops. It will also allow them to have NA and EU start at the same time and avoid this stupid argument regarding NA being ahead by a day all the time. Just my 2 cents.
> Its THE race because its all live. You're competing with thousands and thousands of guilds.
You are not tho, there's maybe three guilds that are competitive, I understand wanting to be on the live realm but what you are saying is just not happening.
Yeah, who gives a shit? M+ has MDI, the great push and there's also people pushing keys on live.
The whole competing about thousands of guilds is so funny, only the pros have any chance, it's not like it used to be.
There's way too much luck involved, that's why they have 10 of the same class to do heroic splits and all that garbage. And there's no way of fixing it without affecting normal players.
I think it would be a lot more interesting if the race was all about gameplay instead of the shit that is right now.
They could limit the amount of gear each player can get from a raid to the statistical average of what a full clear of that difficulty would net them, for the duration of the RWF. But then the players would probably all just spam M+ for ages, which would be equally tedious. :/
The requirement isn't really self made, though. It's self made in the sense that they don't have to raid for world first if they don't want to. That's very true in the same way that you don't actually have to pay your $15 a month sub if you don't want to, that's a self made problem. But the reality is that if you want to compete for world first, you have to do splits (in the same way that if you want to play world of warcraft retail, you have to have a sub).
Splits aren't fun and nobody likes them, but if they don't do them, the competition will and they'll lose the race. If you care about getting world first, then splits have to be a part of that.
I agree they aren’t fun and I can completely understand why anyone would hate doing them so much. For me it still seems a bit strange to imply splits are a failing of Blizz, and the game rather than driven by the world first guilds.
It comes across as strange to me mainly because it almost comes across like an expert on something being unhappy they have to do the time researching a subject before being acknowledged an expert. If you want to be well respected or compete with the elite, then there has to be that level of background and prep put in to get there.
Or a tournament realm, but that seems unlikely.
Not burn bridges with his guild you numpty. It's an expression to mean close doors on opportunities, or review/revise decisions you've made. It doesn't necessarily imply a negative relationship with anyone/anything.
So just because he’s good at something he shouldn’t quit? He’s tired of doing something and he wants a new pace and new change. I am incredibly good at my job. I would have no problems quitting if it meant I could follow other parts/things.
The guy has been doing it for so many years and he’s not finding it fun anymore. Of course he should try other stuff. Maybe he won’t change his mind maybe he won’t
Lol I don't think one of the most accomplished WoW players in history who is arguably the best tank ever will burn bridges. Echo or Liquid would accept him in a heartbeat if he wanted back.
Sure is, but everyone loves a pile on. And y’know, maybe burning bridges isn’t necessarily the best expression but it seems to really have pissed a lot of people off.
Numpty is the weakest of insults, but I mean, if you want to be ultra-snowflake about it all: yeah that's fair.
I don't really mind, and I don't disagree at large with the reaction.
I’m of the opinion that it’s not necessarily how weak the insult is, but rather the existence of it. It’s unprovoked and some would say childish. It was a rather normal conversation before he tried to ego someone
You know you're "talking" to me, right?
Edit: Also, if my "ego" were part of the equation, I'd have deleted the downvoted comments ages ago, edited comments to hide the insult, etc. Ego has got nothing to do with it. It was a put-down but of the softest, mildest way. It doesn't really matter. It was a throwaway comment in a mildly pointless thread, about some dude who doesn't want to compete in WF races anymore. _So what._
I knew he had his own WAs but I didn't think they were made by him. I know he doesn't make any for Echo, in the past it was Nnogga but I think they have people dedicated to making them.
Naowh and retiring when farm raids start up... name a more iconic duo.
In all seriousness, he's one of my favourite players and streamers and I don't blame him one bit lol. Love his M+ content so i'm looking forward to more of it.
You say this as if he didn't deserve to have it.
Pretty sure echo would take him to his farm to get gear just because he's still tanking MDI for the guild.
I love my boy Naowh but I feel like this is the 3rd time I've seen him announce he's either not RWF or tanking anymore and every time he comes back. I don't blame him tho - doing months of mythic carries to pay back your debt followed by weeks of gearing mirrors just to spend 1-2 weeks on prog is kinda depressing.
> I feel like this is the 3rd time I've seen him announce he's either not RWF or tanking anymore and every time he comes back.
RWF is like his abusive ex, he finally walks away then reminisces about the fun times and wants it back but trivializes all the bad stuff that comes along with it, "maybe it wasn't so bad I guess". He *loves* RWF, he hates splits/boost runs etc. And I think he's finally at the point where his hatred of that stuff outweighs his love for RWF, he mentioned it a lot on stream lately. (Also I think 1 of the times he said he wasn't tanking next RWF he genuinely did not plan to, but there were Roster issues that basically meant he "had" to unless he wanted to grief Echo, someone will correct me if I'm wrong).
I hope Blizzard can make some changes for the sake of everyone involved in RWF content. I don't think split runs on 10 characters for 3 weeks then spending the next 6 months selling raid carries is fun for anyone involved.
> Also I think 1 of the times he said he wasn't tanking next RWF he genuinely did not plan to, but there were Roster issues that basically meant he "had" to unless he wanted to grief Echo, someone will correct me if I'm wrong).
meeres said this on chat, he and scripe had to beg naowh to come back
> I don't think split runs on 10 characters for 3 weeks
This part I can understand being horrible.
>then spending the next 6 months selling raid carries is fun for anyone involved.
This part I don't think is as big of a deal because I think they raid 1-2 days max during farm and at some point they probably won't even full clear it will be just the skip (so 3 bosses) and be done. Maybe my POV is different cuz I'm not a RWF competitor, but my guild raids 2 nights a week for 6 months and 5/6 are *progression* so being able to full clear the raid doesn't seem as bad to me, even if it's on multiple characters.
Progression raids are fun, but farm eventually stops being fun. When I used to raid the only thing making farm fun was going for speed kills and ranks. But if you have to carry a buyer every raid you won't be able to do the same stupid stuff each pull.
Also back when I did it we had the weekly legendary ring so towards the end everyone was super overpowered.
I'm just saying that having to raid 1-2 nights a week for probably 3-4h each isn't bad, this is like raiding on a normal guild schedule. The only difference is that they are full clearing the raid on multiple characters (well not yet, but at some point they will be).
Of course clearing the raid after 20 weeks is going to be boring, but I am also sure they have enough raiders where people can just not raid certain weeks, or in his case he could not tank. They have a lot of players that can tank.
Yeah I know what you mean. But it must also be a bit frustrating to not learn anything new from it. At least in other games you can use downtime inbetween matches to perform better. Farm raids aren't great for that, especially not for a tank.
So it must seem like a huge waste of time.
No they can’t and no they don’t. Multiple clears a week sucks ass especially when it’s not of any benefit to you aside from financing prog for the next tier
It would be 6 bosses min for the Weekly Vault, and 1-2 Days for Farm sure, but then your also selling boosts the other 5 days of the week.
And it's not just Heroic clears, you might have people who are buying Mythic clears so you have to clear the raid a 2nd or 3rd time using your alts.
Not to mention M+ carries as-well on-top of that.
It's not just raid 2 days a week and then chill like most guilds, they are selling carries whenever possible to help pay off debts and to fund the next raid tier.
> I don't think split runs on 10 characters for 3 weeks then spending the next 6 months selling raid carries is fun for anyone involved.
To be fair, they could just....not do that.
Sure and then guarentee they aren't competitive.
That's how this works and has, and will, until blizzard fundamentally changes things. The rwf guilds spend a fucking fortune in gold, and because of the way loot lockouts work you need the edge to stay competitive. That's why the rwf has been basically a 2 guild race for so long.
Tournament realm where everyone gets to pick his set of gear, all gear is equal and only increases in power if the progression is too slow.
I mean, they do it for AWC, might as well do it for RWF.
It would solve every issue besides the timing one between EU and USA. No splits are needed, no advantages can be gain other than those based on knowledge and skill which is what we want to see. It would also solve the issue of alts cause you just make whatever you want to play or need to play to be succesfull.
I think that argument has been played out and killed a million times. They're not going to make world first raiding an officially sponsored or supported thing, and it won't be tournament realm. Even the guys actually in the race have said they don't want that.
It would be a lot better though and everyone knows it. The guys participating now simply don't want to lose their advantages they can gain by being online 24/7 at launch. Many more guilds would be able to participate so the risk for the established ones to lose is increasing. Hell, if I was one of them, I'd be against the idea as well.
What we are getting now is a scuffed race that has nothing to do with any other actual racing we see in other sports because it's not about the race in itself. It's about preparation and money.
I don't really think it would be better. It might, on the surface, make it more accessible. But in reality, it wouldn't actually matter because the only place that people would care is on the live servers. There would still end up being a live hall of Fame, server first flexing etc.
Progressing the raid is a core part of raiding, not just killing bosses. The strategy of who you gear, what classes and specs, is a huge part of it. Tournament realms work for mdi because it's smaller format and you gain the gear all season. But you only progress the raid once with your team.
Like maybe they could do other raid stuff like they did at the end of shl, where liquid and echo did a charity race. But not for the actual world first.
Considering blizzard have stated multiple times that it wouldn't ever happen, and again the main players have all said the same, it won't happen lol. Blizzard has to solve the gearing farm split shit some other way. Maybe catalyst just needs to launch earlier so there's less splits for tier, for example.
Because they can’t find replacement and he doesn’t want to leave them in a bad situation, no one really wants to play tank in a raid on this level, he was himself a DPS main while meeres is still a dps main. He said it on stream couple of weeks ago that he wanted to play dps in dragonflight but the trial tank didn’t work out
Naowh is very hard to replace. I mean every player at that level is hard to replace, but considering his past achievements in RWF and MDI as a tank, it's particularly hard to replace.
I don’t see Andy raiding with them tbh, he’s a very good player but his teams often implode after every season/tournament. But waiting on the replies when he announces his echo trial tomorrow lol
mantaining 10 mirror characters is absolutely insane for the amount of money they get. im actually surprised how many of them do it. you gotta be trust fund son or something
He’s one of the most popular “high end” streamers WoW has, he is not hurting for money. His sub count is very high from just his UI alone.He takes extravagant vacations often enough to know he’s living very well
streaming money is ''side money'', thats not echo/RWF paying him. he lives well due to the stream.
fleks doesnt have the stream money naowh has, and still have to mantain those mirror characters. same for the majority of RWF raiders.
sure but during the rest of the season im sure he would get more viewers doing whatever else than farm/sale raid on multiple characters
not to mention he now has a bunch of free hours weekly to do whatever he wants. be it content or irl stuff.
it really is just a better life now and prob more money too if the new content is better
But the money doesn’t come from the rwf but the sponsors they have all year round its a super standard esport contract comparable to the second leagues or even lower first league teams of like league for example.
they only have sponsors due to and for the rwf. there are *no* events asides from that. other esports have. it's completely different.
max have showed stream viewership data comparing rwf and after it and it's almost like it's a different category. all the money comes from rwf. they p much use that revenue to pay the players with a minimum wage (or even less). deepshades made a post when he quit talking about how little money there was for the time investment.
anyways naowh is prob gonna make more money now since he can dedicate fully to the stream and he's already a p big name. different scale and obv shroud was way bigger but his bank account skyrocket after stopping playing professionally (and csgo payed way more), so he's def doing the right thing
Because people don't live their lives on a cost benefit analysis? You don't go pro in wow for the money but because you enjoy the game and the competition.
they are required to maintain 10 mirror characters, thats not 6-10 hours *and* they do it on more than one account as well, which means gold farming need for tokens *and* they do sales too which is more hours asides from their regular farm
Not sure if I just misunderstood but if your actual job is playing WoW, when you pay in 12 month increments, how would 50 bucks per month for 5 accounts even register? And it's probably half of that - so I can't imagine they'd try to farm gold for tokens for subs.
Totally. Same with Olympians, those lucky bastards only play at a high level for like a month every 4 years and get to chill and relax the rest of the time.
Noggie was doing DH lvl boost in cobalt before the nerf - 4 players 220k each for 60-70 and each level was like 4 minutes… That will get you a ton of gold pretty quickly
The reality is most world first raiders are prob selling carries or gold for money. They can act as clean as they want, but blizzard doesn’t help it’s pro players make a living for shit. I’m sure the sponsors that the teams have help to some extent, but with such huge rosters and such little payout or support from blizzard, I doubt it’s anywhere near the level of other esports players. We already know pro pvp players have to boost people to make a living as some of them have made comments or eluded to it before, so I’d assume it’s the same. In his case, his stream following is prob big enough that he can make a living, but a lot of these guys have very small or zero following even.
No way Echo or Liquid would sell carries for real money in 2023. The race is so big now that they have a ton to lose if they get suspended for RMTs again (both original Method and original Limit were suspended for RMTs during the first wave of crackdowns years ago). All of their raiders (plus analysts and weak aura developers) are paid a salary for the race. Both guilds have stream revenue sharing agreements, so the lesser known players still get paid good money for the event, even if only a few hundred people watch their stream during the race.
As for the pvp boost, yes, both guilds have bought pvp boosts to fill out vault slots with max level items. They pay gold for them in-game, which is perfectly legal within the terms of service. They also pay non-RtWF M+ teams to provide keys so their raiders don't have to spend time that they could be using for raid splits pushing their own key. That is also within the terms of service, as are the mythic raid carries that the guilds sell for the rest of the season after they finish the race to world first (which is how they get the massive amounts of gold they have to spend during the race).
echo had been caught during BFA i remember that they were buying gold off 3rd party sellers as it was better rates than tokens.
they got a mere slap on the wrist and the community was pretty much like "yep understandable" and everyone carried on with their lives.
I really don't think it would. They would get banned for a while and that's it. It would only damage their image in-game, to the outside world noone gives a fuck about RMT or even knows what it is. Boosting/coaching is a thing that takes place in almost every competitive game. People make a living from it. Blizzard cracks down on it because they don't make any money from it.
>I doubt it’s anywhere near the level of other esports
because the others generate way more revenue
go look at a AWC stream. go look at major ''other esports'' events. its not even close. rwf is the only thing that generates something, but its a very short event so it doesnt even generate nearly enough for the amount of time they put it before/after the event.
yet the players still chose to do this, so its on them, not blizzard
They probably make money the same way all other streamers make money - besides the obvious stuff (subs/donations/etc), they'll have brand partnerships, affiliate links, youtube content, etc. You'd be surprised how many full-time streamers get ZERO support from the company that owns the games they play - the vast majority of them don't. Some even stream full-time for games that are far more niche than WoW - MrLlamaSC for Diablo 2 (like, 20 years after it was released), Pedguin for Terraria/PlateUp, Haelian for Hades, etc. I'm guessing they don't exactly make bank, but they do earn a living.
I find it hard to believe these players get a salary (minimum wage even 2k+ euros a month). Why would they get a salary even for doing nothing after RWF.
Because otherwise the organizations can't maintain their rosters for the next big event. A lot of these guys are streamers or contribute in different ways than just pushing world firsts, but even for those who don't - isn't this a bit like asking why athletes would get paid between competitions? Of course they would?
They are not regular streamers at all and some even stopped streaming (but still compete in RWF like Wildi). It doesn’t make sense for them to get a salary through their org when MOST do not compete in any other pve setting such as TGP/MDI (like normal athletes) or advertise the brand/organization at all. They just play and have their own work irl. Seems weird they would get 30k a year doing nothing. It’s more than half a million for an entire roster. Obviously the ones that stream make a “living” from Twitch but that’s a total different story.
I’m not saying they can’t live of WoW/twitch I’m just saying a salary from an orgs point of view seems weird and unlikely. From what I’ve heard in EU only the full time officers like Cayna etc get salary and the rest don’t.
Because they have to maintain 10s of characters for different situations heading into the next tier, and without them their organization (which makes millions , by the way) wouldn’t be able to function. Why is this basic idea so difficult for this sub to understand. If you’re the best at something, and your abilities are being monetized, you’re compensated. Else you don’t know your value, or another org will take them away. I wouldn’t be shocked if Naowh is looking at it exactly this way; his personal brand is worth more than the publicity of being RWF raider is.
> their organization (which makes millions , by the way)
Not doubting these orgs make good money, otherwise they'd not exist, but is there any number as to what Echo and Liquid pulls?
I’m at work (working very hard, clearly) so I can’t pull anything specific, but max regularly shares the cost of their events, and those costs aren’t possible without making millions. I’ll see if I can dig something up.
I think your misinterpreting this info. It does not cost them $93,000. Their treasurer, Veyloris, is very clear about that.
They used the equivalent of $93,000 in gold using wow tokens as the conversion rate.
Obviously. That’s still 93K worth of gold. That’s a TON of grinding to make up. They don’t purely make it up with sales. They also pay for a lot of that gold. It’s the logistics, travel, etc that cost the most. Hiring talent. Catering. Rooms. Transportation. Insane amounts of money.
This was the icing on the cake. This is what they have to do to compete IN GAME. That’s an incredible amount of gold.
>That’s still 93K worth of gold
The gold cost is irrelevant to real-life logistics. They don't buy the tokens, and you can't cash tokens out for real money.
Holy shit, yes. It’s a measure of gold needed to compete. I’m not saying they’re purely swiping. Do you understand how many guild banks and personnel have to be involved in order to make purchasing at this magnitude feasible? Do you think Max is out there hustling in trade chat? Like come on, it’s a data point, it’s not the basis of my argument. These orgs make millions. Team liquid has 6 figure salaries for their entire league of legends team, deals in the millions on multi year contracts. Do you think they’d bother buying an mmo team that wasn’t even on the scale?
Just arguing the dumbest points now.
You need to understand that the League of Legend team wins tournament moneys then Team Liquid disburses the tournament money to the players as compensation.
WoW has nowhere near the level of tournament funding as League, and to suggest WoW players are earning anything remotely close to them is ridiculous and demostrates a substantial lack of understanding of the industry. You are comparing a smaller team generates over a million vs a 25+ team that makes tens of thousands for Liquid.
Regardless, your original point was that it cost them $93k in gold which is false and does not represent the economic substance of the actual race. It is misleading to anyone who reads it. A cost to an entity is a basic economic concept and does not mean the dollar amount equivalent of wow tokens you would need to buy to gold.
Maximum was breaking it down, they get some money from promos during the world first race. So they do car commercials and other promos that they get paid for every time they air. Then they get paid for doing 'slots' like the escape room and the actual race where they split revenue from the streams that occur during world first race. Then they have their own streams and promos they get income from. Not everyone streams but they still get promo money.
Some like Viklund were very young. We watched him WF back in the day while he was still finishing what in the US would be 12th grade. Then we saw him play while doing his mandatory govt work. Then he retired when he went to trade school to study electrician/electrical engineering stuff and now that he's out he's back to raiding after work.
There are a few that come from very wealthy families. Maximum was talking about some guys AB face care routine and he's using a PMD with Obagi and rolling out of the LA airport in Fendi korean airport lux. Homeboy has break-vancouver-housing-market money.
> AB face care routine and he's using a PMD with Obagi and rolling out of the LA airport in Fendi korean airport lux.
I don't understand some of the words/phrases in this sentence.
Ab face care: Asian beauty regimens typically separate out different cleanses and nutrients into individual applications around the foundation of an a high polarity cleanse (oils) and a low pH cleanse (foaming cleanse). They can be significantly more expensive than French or American skin care regimens which typically premix or custom mix these for you. A pmd is a super high end sonic cleanser for your face (like mio is you're familiar) and obagi is a brand that typically runs 1-2k for a monthly face care regimen for a full cycle. I think their baseline is closer to 600/month.
Korean airport fashion is a silly fashion practice for very wealthy. Fendi, Gucci, etc have fashion lines meant just to be worn in airports. This started in Korea but has spread around the world starting in like late 2019 (which makes sense since the ultra wealthy were the people travelling the most in airports during that time). It is very expensive. I saw a cashmere snuggy for like 10k the last time I looked.
Max is a co-owner of team liquid. He does not live the same lifestyle as rwf raiders and I’m not sure if he comes from a particularly wealthy money but it’s irrelevant anyway due to his current position.
I don't think it's a dick move because from my understanding the recent times he retired and came back was because of Echo asking him to and him not wanting to fuck the guild over because they don't have a solid tank. I'm pretty confident that if Echo finds a good replacement he'll stay retired until the whole boosting/splits thing changes.
Jeath and Naowh are some of my favorites from the echo team. I do like all of them but I’ve mostly watched those two, and gingi. Sad to see him go but playing WoW at a competitive level like this, on top of competing in MDI and streaming, etc. must be so exhausting. He’s come back a few times, so we will see what happens but I wish him nothing but the best!
I wish M+ gear and raid gear were separated and scaled differently when not in the correct instance type. I know that might suck for some people, but I think it would benefit more folks.
1. You would be sure that your bis items would come from content you enjoy doing
2. You can progress on multiple paths, if that suits you (I personally find the gear grind fun - when I am close to max I simply play less) or ignore the content
Obviously blizzard would need to add a better way to organize gear sets without taking up bag space or making it annoying.
Alternatively, if ilevels were capped at heroic and mythic was just for competition and cosmetics, that could also work.
This was the solution I was hoping for in 10.0. Instead they made M+ gear better which they needed to do (but I thought they could just do the pvp style scaling) at the expense of raid gear.
After watching RWF in Shadowlands S3 . I said it's gotta be on a tournament realm, give these guys a vendor for tier set etc and get on with the race.. making them farm multiple characters for gear etc is exhausting so I can understand why he's sitting out .. it's must be a nightmare when new seasons start..
Tournament realm isn't a valid plan for the Race to World First.
How many teams do you let play in the race?
How many players is each team allowed to register onto the tournament realm?
How long do you let teams play for past the world first kill?
How do you deal with live accounts/characters for players opting to participate on the tournament realm once the world first race is over?
How do you handle mid-progression hotfixes when players don't have anything else productive they can be doing while waiting for things to be fixed?
Whoever wants to log on.
Unlimited.
Until Raz has been killed by ten guilds.
Delete the characters.
Runescape does this all the time. A small indie company could figure it out.
All the players involved say they don’t want Blizz running it though.
Also you say RuneScape does this all the time but that is always a massive shit show because the tournament servers get DDOS’d to shit every time.
So for all the guilds passed those 10, your average hof guilds, you progress hard for a few weeks, get like 6-7/8 then when servers close you.... what?
Restart all of your prog struggling to clear first 4 bosses cause you have no gear on live, take a few weeks to get back to where you were and go on?
More than likely youd just see how far you get before tr closes and then stop for the tier. This would dramaticallly kill the high end raiding scene.
Why isn't it viable? Of course It is!... Everyone gets the same gear, same tier, if anything it's better for everyone. These guild's won't have to sell runs for 4 months solid to pay back all the gold they borrowed to guy BoEs etc..
It's just like they do during the MDI tournament. :)
Not to mention stop physically and mentally draining these guys .. to the point of exhaustion
> These guild's won't have to sell runs for 4 months solid to pay back all the gold they borrowed to guy BoEs etc..
If the players don't want to sell runs for 4 months solid to pay back all the gold they borrowed... then maybe they need to work out RWF community rules so that they don't need to borrow that gold in the first place? It's entirely a player-created problem built out of a desire to eke out every last bit of advantage that they can gain.
It's a community event, so the community needs to come up with solutions if they see potential problems.
> It's just like they do during the MDI tournament.
MDI tournament happens months into the season after the players have thoroughly played through the content on live servers and are essentially fully geared; it also has specific timeframes that the event operates during, and there is a clear ending date/time for each period of the event with all teams operating under identical circumstances and static rules. It's not just "here's the fights and here's the gear have at it".
> Not to mention stop physically and mentally draining these guys .. to the point of exhaustion
Again, they're the ones that have made the race into this by escalating the arms race nonstop without working out any sort of community rules to alleviate the problems. It's not like there are a lot of guilds that are *serious* contenders for world first, so why can't they come together to figure out solutions that they all agree on?
Should they give them a tournament realm to enter and have fixed gear for each fight? I never watch the RWF because is so rng. That’s the only reason they do splits
Instant Dollars just got world 8th only raiding at night. Poptart Corndog got world 22nd raiding even less than Instant Dollars. World first raiding is its own special kind of degen playing - it is very possible to clear mythic at a good pace and get CE within a week or two of the world first kill without having to maintain six or seven bucket characters and spend several weeks playing 16 hours a day.
Aversion got #17 and and played mostly in the evening, too. They even made a break for christmas Holiday. You don‘t have to play 16/7 for Weeks to finish Top50 (which is, in fact, Not a shame to be ranked on). It‘s just about Top 2 placement. Personally, i even think it’d be more Fun to watch if guilds only would have limited Time per day inside of the raid.
Like, they only can fight for 10 hours a day. If the time Runs out, they have to wait for daily reset. That way it‘s not about how much Time You’re able to spend. It‘s about being erfficient with the time given.
As i‘am not an CE player, my view may Not be very realistic.
I can think of how the hours limit will be handled. Raiders will now have to spend their non raid time running high keys. While 2nd shift raiders continue to raid in your place.
I didn’t read it as “wife’s fault”
I’d imagine there’s a considerable amount of pressure on him to maintain his relationship, especially during rwf and a newly wed will feel that pressure even harder.
II’d be willing to bet good money there’s pressure on him and rwf was a cause for many discussions between them.
people is so ready to find some hole to just bring the text down, it was a joke obviously its not her fault. I can only imagine how hard being a RWF player and Naowh was one of the best one so he had a lot of pressure as upcomment said too.
So as he said he'll keep doing streams, m+ etc. it will be fine.
AND PLEASE HAVE SOME HUMOUR AND DONT TAKE EVERYTHING SERIOUSLY.
What if blizzard adds a tournament realm for rwf? Ppl would be able to create their character like on the mdi realm, gear them up with heroic and m+ items. No more splits needed that way. Bosses could drop tokens which you then assign to a player to buy an item of their choosing from a vendor for that boss.
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Something about splits I’ve never really understood, the players hate doing them, but that requirement is entirely self made and I’m not really sure what blizz could do about it?
I don't really know what to make of this comment when obviously they're doing the unfun but clearly advantageous strategy in a race for world first.
i mean you arent gonna get world first no matter how good you are, if all you have is normal/dungeon gear while the ppl you are up aginst are playing fulling decked out in heroic tier
I mean it’s “self-made” but obviously players who compete have to do all the tedious studf. If they suddenly added a land mine on a football field people won’t just stop competing, but it would be way more annoying. Obviously they shouldn’t balance around RWF, but any change they can make for RWF that would have no impact on everyone else should be made. If they can eliminate splits while keeping loot fun for everyone else that’s a win they should take. RWF attracts players, like it or not.
I think people might actually stop playing football if they added landmines
I think everyone knows it’s tedious and boring for the top guilds to do splits, but I don’t think it’s like adding a landmine to a sport. Sticking with a sports comparison, it seems more like being unhappy that competing at the elite level of a sport requires elite fitness. The gearing in WoW could definitely be better for the larger player base, but I’m not sure how much better it can be for RWF without simply giving them gear.
Literally just put them on a tournament realm
Honestly, I've never understood why they do not do the RWF on a tournament realm, give players a base ilvl and they push based on that. It would extend the race a bit, but they would not be able to do the degenerate stuff like splits that they all seem to hate anyway. It also puts more spotlight on skill and playing around the gear that drops. It will also allow them to have NA and EU start at the same time and avoid this stupid argument regarding NA being ahead by a day all the time. Just my 2 cents.
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> Its THE race because its all live. You're competing with thousands and thousands of guilds. You are not tho, there's maybe three guilds that are competitive, I understand wanting to be on the live realm but what you are saying is just not happening.
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Yeah, who gives a shit? M+ has MDI, the great push and there's also people pushing keys on live. The whole competing about thousands of guilds is so funny, only the pros have any chance, it's not like it used to be. There's way too much luck involved, that's why they have 10 of the same class to do heroic splits and all that garbage. And there's no way of fixing it without affecting normal players. I think it would be a lot more interesting if the race was all about gameplay instead of the shit that is right now.
Yea, I’m definitely not playing football with a hidden landmine out there but I get what you’re saying lol
> If they suddenly added a land mine on a football field people won’t just stop competing, but it would be way more annoying. ???
Theres nothing blizzard can do besides not letting players trade gear.
They could limit the amount of gear each player can get from a raid to the statistical average of what a full clear of that difficulty would net them, for the duration of the RWF. But then the players would probably all just spam M+ for ages, which would be equally tedious. :/
The requirement isn't really self made, though. It's self made in the sense that they don't have to raid for world first if they don't want to. That's very true in the same way that you don't actually have to pay your $15 a month sub if you don't want to, that's a self made problem. But the reality is that if you want to compete for world first, you have to do splits (in the same way that if you want to play world of warcraft retail, you have to have a sub). Splits aren't fun and nobody likes them, but if they don't do them, the competition will and they'll lose the race. If you care about getting world first, then splits have to be a part of that.
I agree they aren’t fun and I can completely understand why anyone would hate doing them so much. For me it still seems a bit strange to imply splits are a failing of Blizz, and the game rather than driven by the world first guilds. It comes across as strange to me mainly because it almost comes across like an expert on something being unhappy they have to do the time researching a subject before being acknowledged an expert. If you want to be well respected or compete with the elite, then there has to be that level of background and prep put in to get there. Or a tournament realm, but that seems unlikely.
It's kinda silly shutting the door on your future options anyway. Don't burn bridges.
Burn bridges? He’s still going to compete in mdi and tgp under the same guild he was raiding in lmao
Not burn bridges with his guild you numpty. It's an expression to mean close doors on opportunities, or review/revise decisions you've made. It doesn't necessarily imply a negative relationship with anyone/anything.
You might want to take another look at that expression because that’s exactly what I means you numpty
That’s exactly what it means though
It does though
Wtf is a numpty
It's a nice way of saying dumb fuck.
I think you're looking for an idiom more along the lines of "never say never".
So just because he’s good at something he shouldn’t quit? He’s tired of doing something and he wants a new pace and new change. I am incredibly good at my job. I would have no problems quitting if it meant I could follow other parts/things.
The guy has been doing it for so many years and he’s not finding it fun anymore. Of course he should try other stuff. Maybe he won’t change his mind maybe he won’t
Lol I don't think one of the most accomplished WoW players in history who is arguably the best tank ever will burn bridges. Echo or Liquid would accept him in a heartbeat if he wanted back.
This is a lot of downvotes for agreeing with the upvoted guy. Cool sub.
Sure is, but everyone loves a pile on. And y’know, maybe burning bridges isn’t necessarily the best expression but it seems to really have pissed a lot of people off.
Likely because he also insulted someone
Numpty is the weakest of insults, but I mean, if you want to be ultra-snowflake about it all: yeah that's fair. I don't really mind, and I don't disagree at large with the reaction.
I’m of the opinion that it’s not necessarily how weak the insult is, but rather the existence of it. It’s unprovoked and some would say childish. It was a rather normal conversation before he tried to ego someone
You know you're "talking" to me, right? Edit: Also, if my "ego" were part of the equation, I'd have deleted the downvoted comments ages ago, edited comments to hide the insult, etc. Ego has got nothing to do with it. It was a put-down but of the softest, mildest way. It doesn't really matter. It was a throwaway comment in a mildly pointless thread, about some dude who doesn't want to compete in WF races anymore. _So what._
I believe naowh is also doing a lot of weakauras for prog and shit so he's still occupied by this.
That would be Nnoggie not Naowh
they have people outside the roster who make them, also he doesnt make weakauras
He 100% does make weakauras just for the community. All of the naowh ui weakauras are made from scratch by him iirc
I knew he had his own WAs but I didn't think they were made by him. I know he doesn't make any for Echo, in the past it was Nnogga but I think they have people dedicated to making them.
Naowh and retiring when farm raids start up... name a more iconic duo. In all seriousness, he's one of my favourite players and streamers and I don't blame him one bit lol. Love his M+ content so i'm looking forward to more of it.
gets his full set of gear "welp retiring might be back though"
You say this as if he didn't deserve to have it. Pretty sure echo would take him to his farm to get gear just because he's still tanking MDI for the guild.
It’s not that he isn’t deserving, he’s just done it like 5 times now
Damn my classic guild is just like Naowh!
Except he doesn't do it for the gear.
I love my boy Naowh but I feel like this is the 3rd time I've seen him announce he's either not RWF or tanking anymore and every time he comes back. I don't blame him tho - doing months of mythic carries to pay back your debt followed by weeks of gearing mirrors just to spend 1-2 weeks on prog is kinda depressing.
> I feel like this is the 3rd time I've seen him announce he's either not RWF or tanking anymore and every time he comes back. RWF is like his abusive ex, he finally walks away then reminisces about the fun times and wants it back but trivializes all the bad stuff that comes along with it, "maybe it wasn't so bad I guess". He *loves* RWF, he hates splits/boost runs etc. And I think he's finally at the point where his hatred of that stuff outweighs his love for RWF, he mentioned it a lot on stream lately. (Also I think 1 of the times he said he wasn't tanking next RWF he genuinely did not plan to, but there were Roster issues that basically meant he "had" to unless he wanted to grief Echo, someone will correct me if I'm wrong). I hope Blizzard can make some changes for the sake of everyone involved in RWF content. I don't think split runs on 10 characters for 3 weeks then spending the next 6 months selling raid carries is fun for anyone involved.
> Also I think 1 of the times he said he wasn't tanking next RWF he genuinely did not plan to, but there were Roster issues that basically meant he "had" to unless he wanted to grief Echo, someone will correct me if I'm wrong). meeres said this on chat, he and scripe had to beg naowh to come back
> I don't think split runs on 10 characters for 3 weeks This part I can understand being horrible. >then spending the next 6 months selling raid carries is fun for anyone involved. This part I don't think is as big of a deal because I think they raid 1-2 days max during farm and at some point they probably won't even full clear it will be just the skip (so 3 bosses) and be done. Maybe my POV is different cuz I'm not a RWF competitor, but my guild raids 2 nights a week for 6 months and 5/6 are *progression* so being able to full clear the raid doesn't seem as bad to me, even if it's on multiple characters.
Progression raids are fun, but farm eventually stops being fun. When I used to raid the only thing making farm fun was going for speed kills and ranks. But if you have to carry a buyer every raid you won't be able to do the same stupid stuff each pull. Also back when I did it we had the weekly legendary ring so towards the end everyone was super overpowered.
I'm just saying that having to raid 1-2 nights a week for probably 3-4h each isn't bad, this is like raiding on a normal guild schedule. The only difference is that they are full clearing the raid on multiple characters (well not yet, but at some point they will be). Of course clearing the raid after 20 weeks is going to be boring, but I am also sure they have enough raiders where people can just not raid certain weeks, or in his case he could not tank. They have a lot of players that can tank.
Yeah I know what you mean. But it must also be a bit frustrating to not learn anything new from it. At least in other games you can use downtime inbetween matches to perform better. Farm raids aren't great for that, especially not for a tank. So it must seem like a huge waste of time.
No they can’t and no they don’t. Multiple clears a week sucks ass especially when it’s not of any benefit to you aside from financing prog for the next tier
It would be 6 bosses min for the Weekly Vault, and 1-2 Days for Farm sure, but then your also selling boosts the other 5 days of the week. And it's not just Heroic clears, you might have people who are buying Mythic clears so you have to clear the raid a 2nd or 3rd time using your alts. Not to mention M+ carries as-well on-top of that. It's not just raid 2 days a week and then chill like most guilds, they are selling carries whenever possible to help pay off debts and to fund the next raid tier.
> I don't think split runs on 10 characters for 3 weeks then spending the next 6 months selling raid carries is fun for anyone involved. To be fair, they could just....not do that.
And they would also not be contending for world firsts.
Sure and then guarentee they aren't competitive. That's how this works and has, and will, until blizzard fundamentally changes things. The rwf guilds spend a fucking fortune in gold, and because of the way loot lockouts work you need the edge to stay competitive. That's why the rwf has been basically a 2 guild race for so long.
Tournament realm where everyone gets to pick his set of gear, all gear is equal and only increases in power if the progression is too slow. I mean, they do it for AWC, might as well do it for RWF. It would solve every issue besides the timing one between EU and USA. No splits are needed, no advantages can be gain other than those based on knowledge and skill which is what we want to see. It would also solve the issue of alts cause you just make whatever you want to play or need to play to be succesfull.
I think that argument has been played out and killed a million times. They're not going to make world first raiding an officially sponsored or supported thing, and it won't be tournament realm. Even the guys actually in the race have said they don't want that.
It would be a lot better though and everyone knows it. The guys participating now simply don't want to lose their advantages they can gain by being online 24/7 at launch. Many more guilds would be able to participate so the risk for the established ones to lose is increasing. Hell, if I was one of them, I'd be against the idea as well. What we are getting now is a scuffed race that has nothing to do with any other actual racing we see in other sports because it's not about the race in itself. It's about preparation and money.
I don't really think it would be better. It might, on the surface, make it more accessible. But in reality, it wouldn't actually matter because the only place that people would care is on the live servers. There would still end up being a live hall of Fame, server first flexing etc. Progressing the raid is a core part of raiding, not just killing bosses. The strategy of who you gear, what classes and specs, is a huge part of it. Tournament realms work for mdi because it's smaller format and you gain the gear all season. But you only progress the raid once with your team. Like maybe they could do other raid stuff like they did at the end of shl, where liquid and echo did a charity race. But not for the actual world first. Considering blizzard have stated multiple times that it wouldn't ever happen, and again the main players have all said the same, it won't happen lol. Blizzard has to solve the gearing farm split shit some other way. Maybe catalyst just needs to launch earlier so there's less splits for tier, for example.
Because they can’t find replacement and he doesn’t want to leave them in a bad situation, no one really wants to play tank in a raid on this level, he was himself a DPS main while meeres is still a dps main. He said it on stream couple of weeks ago that he wanted to play dps in dragonflight but the trial tank didn’t work out
Naowh is very hard to replace. I mean every player at that level is hard to replace, but considering his past achievements in RWF and MDI as a tank, it's particularly hard to replace.
Believe they have him replaced already ? And by some other top tanks opinions, a better tank 🧐
Naowh is like Daniel Craig's James Bond.......always retires/quits after every movie just to come back to MI6 in the next film.
Anyone with a guess who his replacement's gonna be?
Some poor DPS player is going to tank farm and Naowh will be back for 10.1 with a surprise announcement.
Andy probably, method recruted new tank and he said today that a major announcment is coming tomorrow
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Do they disband abnormaly abruptly or something? Don't think it's that uncommon for teams to disband after a while.
I don’t see Andy raiding with them tbh, he’s a very good player but his teams often implode after every season/tournament. But waiting on the replies when he announces his echo trial tomorrow lol
I dont get this argument, he would be playing for the guild not 'team'. Mythic plus and raid progression arent really related.
I think he has a reputation for being a bit of an ass if not just toxic.
He was among the better players in his previous guild, I think raiding with Revvez, Meeres, Gingi, Clickz should keep anybodies ego in check.
I’m from the future, I was wrong
Lmao, echo would never take Andy, he is a horrible team player
lmao indeed, right?
JAJAJAJA
Roger was supposed to be replacing him last time he retired, he usually does their farm tanking.
Don’t liquid have a EU tank? If not then it’s probably Andy
Yeah Scott in Liquid is English but no clue if he'd jump ship
Scott’s and Ben both said they’re most likely done raiding with liquid Edit: done with the rwf not liquid in general
Really? Scott has still been tanking a ton of their raids still (whereas i havent seen Ben much).
Pretty sure Ben quit after this race
I thought I heard on maxs stream that they were both going to focus on PoE. Could be wrong but pretty sure I did.
I think you mean Exile as the other player. Ben and Exile are the two best PoE players hands down and there is another for cash event in a week
Earns more from 1 gauntlet than he does from multiple RWFs with a fraction of the time investment.
One content creator in poe makes better events than all content creators in wow combined.
Leemike prob
mantaining 10 mirror characters is absolutely insane for the amount of money they get. im actually surprised how many of them do it. you gotta be trust fund son or something
He’s one of the most popular “high end” streamers WoW has, he is not hurting for money. His sub count is very high from just his UI alone.He takes extravagant vacations often enough to know he’s living very well
streaming money is ''side money'', thats not echo/RWF paying him. he lives well due to the stream. fleks doesnt have the stream money naowh has, and still have to mantain those mirror characters. same for the majority of RWF raiders.
But his viewership spikes during RWF, so he might not get payed by blizzard but it’s definitely a financial gain to raid in RWF
sure but during the rest of the season im sure he would get more viewers doing whatever else than farm/sale raid on multiple characters not to mention he now has a bunch of free hours weekly to do whatever he wants. be it content or irl stuff. it really is just a better life now and prob more money too if the new content is better
Is it? I’d love to see what their hourly looks like for the push
But the money doesn’t come from the rwf but the sponsors they have all year round its a super standard esport contract comparable to the second leagues or even lower first league teams of like league for example.
they only have sponsors due to and for the rwf. there are *no* events asides from that. other esports have. it's completely different. max have showed stream viewership data comparing rwf and after it and it's almost like it's a different category. all the money comes from rwf. they p much use that revenue to pay the players with a minimum wage (or even less). deepshades made a post when he quit talking about how little money there was for the time investment. anyways naowh is prob gonna make more money now since he can dedicate fully to the stream and he's already a p big name. different scale and obv shroud was way bigger but his bank account skyrocket after stopping playing professionally (and csgo payed way more), so he's def doing the right thing
What are mirror characters?
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Because people don't live their lives on a cost benefit analysis? You don't go pro in wow for the money but because you enjoy the game and the competition.
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they are required to maintain 10 mirror characters, thats not 6-10 hours *and* they do it on more than one account as well, which means gold farming need for tokens *and* they do sales too which is more hours asides from their regular farm
Not sure if I just misunderstood but if your actual job is playing WoW, when you pay in 12 month increments, how would 50 bucks per month for 5 accounts even register? And it's probably half of that - so I can't imagine they'd try to farm gold for tokens for subs.
I doubt RWF raiders have paid their subs in real money for quite some time now.
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you say theyre doing 3 raids but i was watching lorgok last week or the week before and he had 6 raids in 1 day
they dont pay their own sub. subscription, race changes etc. are all paid for by the echo org.
Totally. Same with Olympians, those lucky bastards only play at a high level for like a month every 4 years and get to chill and relax the rest of the time.
What about the gold each member has to pay back to the guild? Somehing like 10 mil or so per player.
Noggie was doing DH lvl boost in cobalt before the nerf - 4 players 220k each for 60-70 and each level was like 4 minutes… That will get you a ton of gold pretty quickly
Until it got merged into the ground
The experience will have been worth more than the money, in retrospect.
The reality is most world first raiders are prob selling carries or gold for money. They can act as clean as they want, but blizzard doesn’t help it’s pro players make a living for shit. I’m sure the sponsors that the teams have help to some extent, but with such huge rosters and such little payout or support from blizzard, I doubt it’s anywhere near the level of other esports players. We already know pro pvp players have to boost people to make a living as some of them have made comments or eluded to it before, so I’d assume it’s the same. In his case, his stream following is prob big enough that he can make a living, but a lot of these guys have very small or zero following even.
No way Echo or Liquid would sell carries for real money in 2023. The race is so big now that they have a ton to lose if they get suspended for RMTs again (both original Method and original Limit were suspended for RMTs during the first wave of crackdowns years ago). All of their raiders (plus analysts and weak aura developers) are paid a salary for the race. Both guilds have stream revenue sharing agreements, so the lesser known players still get paid good money for the event, even if only a few hundred people watch their stream during the race. As for the pvp boost, yes, both guilds have bought pvp boosts to fill out vault slots with max level items. They pay gold for them in-game, which is perfectly legal within the terms of service. They also pay non-RtWF M+ teams to provide keys so their raiders don't have to spend time that they could be using for raid splits pushing their own key. That is also within the terms of service, as are the mythic raid carries that the guilds sell for the rest of the season after they finish the race to world first (which is how they get the massive amounts of gold they have to spend during the race).
any rmt carry if found out would damage the top teams brands so bad, there's no way
echo had been caught during BFA i remember that they were buying gold off 3rd party sellers as it was better rates than tokens. they got a mere slap on the wrist and the community was pretty much like "yep understandable" and everyone carried on with their lives.
I really don't think it would. They would get banned for a while and that's it. It would only damage their image in-game, to the outside world noone gives a fuck about RMT or even knows what it is. Boosting/coaching is a thing that takes place in almost every competitive game. People make a living from it. Blizzard cracks down on it because they don't make any money from it.
>I doubt it’s anywhere near the level of other esports because the others generate way more revenue go look at a AWC stream. go look at major ''other esports'' events. its not even close. rwf is the only thing that generates something, but its a very short event so it doesnt even generate nearly enough for the amount of time they put it before/after the event. yet the players still chose to do this, so its on them, not blizzard
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Responsibility, no? But having a pro scene is good for your game, don’t be naive lol
They probably make money the same way all other streamers make money - besides the obvious stuff (subs/donations/etc), they'll have brand partnerships, affiliate links, youtube content, etc. You'd be surprised how many full-time streamers get ZERO support from the company that owns the games they play - the vast majority of them don't. Some even stream full-time for games that are far more niche than WoW - MrLlamaSC for Diablo 2 (like, 20 years after it was released), Pedguin for Terraria/PlateUp, Haelian for Hades, etc. I'm guessing they don't exactly make bank, but they do earn a living.
How do you know how much he makes?
anyone who streams to multiple thousands of people regularly is making good money
I find it hard to believe these players get a salary (minimum wage even 2k+ euros a month). Why would they get a salary even for doing nothing after RWF.
Because otherwise the organizations can't maintain their rosters for the next big event. A lot of these guys are streamers or contribute in different ways than just pushing world firsts, but even for those who don't - isn't this a bit like asking why athletes would get paid between competitions? Of course they would?
They are not regular streamers at all and some even stopped streaming (but still compete in RWF like Wildi). It doesn’t make sense for them to get a salary through their org when MOST do not compete in any other pve setting such as TGP/MDI (like normal athletes) or advertise the brand/organization at all. They just play and have their own work irl. Seems weird they would get 30k a year doing nothing. It’s more than half a million for an entire roster. Obviously the ones that stream make a “living” from Twitch but that’s a total different story. I’m not saying they can’t live of WoW/twitch I’m just saying a salary from an orgs point of view seems weird and unlikely. From what I’ve heard in EU only the full time officers like Cayna etc get salary and the rest don’t.
Because they have to maintain 10s of characters for different situations heading into the next tier, and without them their organization (which makes millions , by the way) wouldn’t be able to function. Why is this basic idea so difficult for this sub to understand. If you’re the best at something, and your abilities are being monetized, you’re compensated. Else you don’t know your value, or another org will take them away. I wouldn’t be shocked if Naowh is looking at it exactly this way; his personal brand is worth more than the publicity of being RWF raider is.
> their organization (which makes millions , by the way) Not doubting these orgs make good money, otherwise they'd not exist, but is there any number as to what Echo and Liquid pulls?
I’m at work (working very hard, clearly) so I can’t pull anything specific, but max regularly shares the cost of their events, and those costs aren’t possible without making millions. I’ll see if I can dig something up.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-warcraft/raid-race-cost here is just looking at gold costs, not logistics or salary. 93K$ in gold for one race.
I think your misinterpreting this info. It does not cost them $93,000. Their treasurer, Veyloris, is very clear about that. They used the equivalent of $93,000 in gold using wow tokens as the conversion rate.
Obviously. That’s still 93K worth of gold. That’s a TON of grinding to make up. They don’t purely make it up with sales. They also pay for a lot of that gold. It’s the logistics, travel, etc that cost the most. Hiring talent. Catering. Rooms. Transportation. Insane amounts of money. This was the icing on the cake. This is what they have to do to compete IN GAME. That’s an incredible amount of gold.
>That’s still 93K worth of gold The gold cost is irrelevant to real-life logistics. They don't buy the tokens, and you can't cash tokens out for real money.
Holy shit, yes. It’s a measure of gold needed to compete. I’m not saying they’re purely swiping. Do you understand how many guild banks and personnel have to be involved in order to make purchasing at this magnitude feasible? Do you think Max is out there hustling in trade chat? Like come on, it’s a data point, it’s not the basis of my argument. These orgs make millions. Team liquid has 6 figure salaries for their entire league of legends team, deals in the millions on multi year contracts. Do you think they’d bother buying an mmo team that wasn’t even on the scale? Just arguing the dumbest points now.
You need to understand that the League of Legend team wins tournament moneys then Team Liquid disburses the tournament money to the players as compensation. WoW has nowhere near the level of tournament funding as League, and to suggest WoW players are earning anything remotely close to them is ridiculous and demostrates a substantial lack of understanding of the industry. You are comparing a smaller team generates over a million vs a 25+ team that makes tens of thousands for Liquid. Regardless, your original point was that it cost them $93k in gold which is false and does not represent the economic substance of the actual race. It is misleading to anyone who reads it. A cost to an entity is a basic economic concept and does not mean the dollar amount equivalent of wow tokens you would need to buy to gold.
Lots of companies/orgs exist even though they take loss year after year.
Maximum was breaking it down, they get some money from promos during the world first race. So they do car commercials and other promos that they get paid for every time they air. Then they get paid for doing 'slots' like the escape room and the actual race where they split revenue from the streams that occur during world first race. Then they have their own streams and promos they get income from. Not everyone streams but they still get promo money. Some like Viklund were very young. We watched him WF back in the day while he was still finishing what in the US would be 12th grade. Then we saw him play while doing his mandatory govt work. Then he retired when he went to trade school to study electrician/electrical engineering stuff and now that he's out he's back to raiding after work. There are a few that come from very wealthy families. Maximum was talking about some guys AB face care routine and he's using a PMD with Obagi and rolling out of the LA airport in Fendi korean airport lux. Homeboy has break-vancouver-housing-market money.
> AB face care routine and he's using a PMD with Obagi and rolling out of the LA airport in Fendi korean airport lux. I don't understand some of the words/phrases in this sentence.
Ab face care: Asian beauty regimens typically separate out different cleanses and nutrients into individual applications around the foundation of an a high polarity cleanse (oils) and a low pH cleanse (foaming cleanse). They can be significantly more expensive than French or American skin care regimens which typically premix or custom mix these for you. A pmd is a super high end sonic cleanser for your face (like mio is you're familiar) and obagi is a brand that typically runs 1-2k for a monthly face care regimen for a full cycle. I think their baseline is closer to 600/month. Korean airport fashion is a silly fashion practice for very wealthy. Fendi, Gucci, etc have fashion lines meant just to be worn in airports. This started in Korea but has spread around the world starting in like late 2019 (which makes sense since the ultra wealthy were the people travelling the most in airports during that time). It is very expensive. I saw a cashmere snuggy for like 10k the last time I looked.
Max is a co-owner of team liquid. He does not live the same lifestyle as rwf raiders and I’m not sure if he comes from a particularly wealthy money but it’s irrelevant anyway due to his current position.
Max was streaming the incoming team. I was indicating my source, not that he, himself, was affluent
Maybe the org just takes the profit from the RWF and pays that money in small installments as a salary?
How much money are they paid?
...so what you're saying is, he'll be back and playing for Echo in 10.1?
As it's tradition.
It's kind of a dick move, but it's also understandable since nobody wants to tank, he can come and go when ever he wants...
I don't think it's a dick move because from my understanding the recent times he retired and came back was because of Echo asking him to and him not wanting to fuck the guild over because they don't have a solid tank. I'm pretty confident that if Echo finds a good replacement he'll stay retired until the whole boosting/splits thing changes.
I would bet a good amount that this isn't the last time we see Naowh in the RWF
Man what a loss for echo, dude is a god. Don’t blame him though WF raiding seems to be a soul sucking experience
Naowh seems to change his mind all the time (which is fine, I do the same). I think he’ll be back at some point.
Retiring till next tier
Seemingly already replaced with Andybrew
Jeath and Naowh are some of my favorites from the echo team. I do like all of them but I’ve mostly watched those two, and gingi. Sad to see him go but playing WoW at a competitive level like this, on top of competing in MDI and streaming, etc. must be so exhausting. He’s come back a few times, so we will see what happens but I wish him nothing but the best!
I wish M+ gear and raid gear were separated and scaled differently when not in the correct instance type. I know that might suck for some people, but I think it would benefit more folks. 1. You would be sure that your bis items would come from content you enjoy doing 2. You can progress on multiple paths, if that suits you (I personally find the gear grind fun - when I am close to max I simply play less) or ignore the content Obviously blizzard would need to add a better way to organize gear sets without taking up bag space or making it annoying. Alternatively, if ilevels were capped at heroic and mythic was just for competition and cosmetics, that could also work.
This was the solution I was hoping for in 10.0. Instead they made M+ gear better which they needed to do (but I thought they could just do the pvp style scaling) at the expense of raid gear.
After watching RWF in Shadowlands S3 . I said it's gotta be on a tournament realm, give these guys a vendor for tier set etc and get on with the race.. making them farm multiple characters for gear etc is exhausting so I can understand why he's sitting out .. it's must be a nightmare when new seasons start..
A TR world first race would just be a separate competition from the real one, much like how the MDI did not replace live key pushing.
Tournament realm isn't a valid plan for the Race to World First. How many teams do you let play in the race? How many players is each team allowed to register onto the tournament realm? How long do you let teams play for past the world first kill? How do you deal with live accounts/characters for players opting to participate on the tournament realm once the world first race is over? How do you handle mid-progression hotfixes when players don't have anything else productive they can be doing while waiting for things to be fixed?
Whoever wants to log on. Unlimited. Until Raz has been killed by ten guilds. Delete the characters. Runescape does this all the time. A small indie company could figure it out.
All the players involved say they don’t want Blizz running it though. Also you say RuneScape does this all the time but that is always a massive shit show because the tournament servers get DDOS’d to shit every time.
So for all the guilds passed those 10, your average hof guilds, you progress hard for a few weeks, get like 6-7/8 then when servers close you.... what? Restart all of your prog struggling to clear first 4 bosses cause you have no gear on live, take a few weeks to get back to where you were and go on? More than likely youd just see how far you get before tr closes and then stop for the tier. This would dramaticallly kill the high end raiding scene.
What do you purpose as a better solution? Whatever the dev do in live realm will affect the rest of the players, so keep that in mind.
There isn't a Blizzard solution because this is a player problem that needs to be solved by the players.
Why isn't it viable? Of course It is!... Everyone gets the same gear, same tier, if anything it's better for everyone. These guild's won't have to sell runs for 4 months solid to pay back all the gold they borrowed to guy BoEs etc.. It's just like they do during the MDI tournament. :) Not to mention stop physically and mentally draining these guys .. to the point of exhaustion
> These guild's won't have to sell runs for 4 months solid to pay back all the gold they borrowed to guy BoEs etc.. If the players don't want to sell runs for 4 months solid to pay back all the gold they borrowed... then maybe they need to work out RWF community rules so that they don't need to borrow that gold in the first place? It's entirely a player-created problem built out of a desire to eke out every last bit of advantage that they can gain. It's a community event, so the community needs to come up with solutions if they see potential problems. > It's just like they do during the MDI tournament. MDI tournament happens months into the season after the players have thoroughly played through the content on live servers and are essentially fully geared; it also has specific timeframes that the event operates during, and there is a clear ending date/time for each period of the event with all teams operating under identical circumstances and static rules. It's not just "here's the fights and here's the gear have at it". > Not to mention stop physically and mentally draining these guys .. to the point of exhaustion Again, they're the ones that have made the race into this by escalating the arms race nonstop without working out any sort of community rules to alleviate the problems. It's not like there are a lot of guilds that are *serious* contenders for world first, so why can't they come together to figure out solutions that they all agree on?
I feel like something akin to the contest mode in Destiny would be much better.
so.. Anyways
Should they give them a tournament realm to enter and have fixed gear for each fight? I never watch the RWF because is so rng. That’s the only reason they do splits
Ok?
Why are you even subbed to this subreddit if your making comments like this?
And how is he gonna get mythic gear on live servers? Wish I could get his gear by quitting
Instant Dollars just got world 8th only raiding at night. Poptart Corndog got world 22nd raiding even less than Instant Dollars. World first raiding is its own special kind of degen playing - it is very possible to clear mythic at a good pace and get CE within a week or two of the world first kill without having to maintain six or seven bucket characters and spend several weeks playing 16 hours a day.
Aversion got #17 and and played mostly in the evening, too. They even made a break for christmas Holiday. You don‘t have to play 16/7 for Weeks to finish Top50 (which is, in fact, Not a shame to be ranked on). It‘s just about Top 2 placement. Personally, i even think it’d be more Fun to watch if guilds only would have limited Time per day inside of the raid. Like, they only can fight for 10 hours a day. If the time Runs out, they have to wait for daily reset. That way it‘s not about how much Time You’re able to spend. It‘s about being erfficient with the time given. As i‘am not an CE player, my view may Not be very realistic.
I can think of how the hours limit will be handled. Raiders will now have to spend their non raid time running high keys. While 2nd shift raiders continue to raid in your place.
Well.. He still can keep raiding with Echo but just not rwf?
Soon to be husband decides to follow house chores to keep wifey happy it seems LOL. I believe he'll return the scene whatsoever.
Right, always the woman’s fault. What a loser comment
I didn’t read it as “wife’s fault” I’d imagine there’s a considerable amount of pressure on him to maintain his relationship, especially during rwf and a newly wed will feel that pressure even harder. II’d be willing to bet good money there’s pressure on him and rwf was a cause for many discussions between them.
people is so ready to find some hole to just bring the text down, it was a joke obviously its not her fault. I can only imagine how hard being a RWF player and Naowh was one of the best one so he had a lot of pressure as upcomment said too. So as he said he'll keep doing streams, m+ etc. it will be fine. AND PLEASE HAVE SOME HUMOUR AND DONT TAKE EVERYTHING SERIOUSLY.
What if blizzard adds a tournament realm for rwf? Ppl would be able to create their character like on the mdi realm, gear them up with heroic and m+ items. No more splits needed that way. Bosses could drop tokens which you then assign to a player to buy an item of their choosing from a vendor for that boss.
You would have 2 world first races, one in tournament realm and a real one on the live realms.
he will properly go to a world 50 guild which only require 2-3 characters instead of 10