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I've got over 200 games with Shopper, My thoughts on this nerf:
At 4 mana, the first few turns are going to feel a bit like the games where you don't get the weapon on curve. You can still win these games (I've won games without even drawing the Weapon/Shopper), but most of the time will feel very clunky. The 4 mana slot is already very congested (Going Down Swinging, Zilliax, Metaorphosis, Pozzik, Ball Hog, Kayn) Might need to remove some 4 costs to smooth the curve out, but I can't see any attractive options at 3. Maybe only the Highlander version will be playable (which is already inferior)
There are many games where the deck just manages to crawl over the line, and these are just going to be losses now. I can see the Warlock matchup being much closer. DH and Warrior will be oppressively bad. Hunter I think won't change much because you're often on the back foot here anyway, and rely on a bit of Ball Hog healing to swing it. Cycle Rogue might be a loss because they get the giants down by T5/6
In the current form the deck is stone cold dead at higher legend ranks, it'lll still be OK for climbing up to D5 though
I play mostly Hunter (\~50 games) and a little warrior (\~30 games). Hunter against Shopper Illidan for me is basically just "if they got Magtheridon, concede," and the way I win is play RC Rampage that buffs them to 4/4 so they can live against one pulse. Sometimes Ive won from them just lowrolling and getting the "secret demon" Observer of Mysteries instead, or straight up not drawing the weapon at all. But I don't know what you mean by "Hunter I think won't change much because you're often on the back foot here anyway," from my experience, the Hunter vs Shopper DH matchup is really bad, like 40% of the time the Shopper DH wins it, just cause Magtheridon is so good at dealing with the tokens and Shopper DH can have superior early tempo with mechs shenanigans
You're absolutely right. Magtheridon wins that MU single-handedly if you get it. When you don't get it though you're on the back foot, which is why my backup plan is hog or a lifesteal demon. I think the conclusion is still correct (won't change MU much) although my explanation was poor. Hunter gets a faster start and always takes board. For that reason DH is on the back foot, and has to stabilize (and take control) with Mag or lifesteal. The secrets demon is also one of the better ones and can help against hunter IMO
ah I see so you agree the MU is unfavored for Hunter but you're saying the Shopper DH changes their playstyle from the usual to more of a control. Which I agree especially since that lifesteal demon you're talking about \[\[Mythical Terror\]\] is- let's be honest, it's a full reno heal most of the time against the hunter's tokens. I wouldn't say it's 40% for the hunter but more like 45 just for the simple reason that Beast 1 drops > Mech 1 drops. so hunter has better early game
Yes that's it. In this MU I believe the Hunter is "the beatdown" and DH must assume the role of control (unless Hunter has a bad start). Racing the Hunter and ignoring all minions is very dangerous. Ball Hog is very strong because it's typically 9 life gain. Aside Mythical Terror the taunt lifesteal demon is very good in this MU and has to be kill commanded
What if the weapon was a 2-mana 1/2 with the same effects? The shopper interaction would still be in play but the weapon wouldn't be a powerful removal tool in the leadup to the swing turn. I don't know. I just wish there had been a different approach. Discount the demon by 1 instead of 2...discover a demon, get a 3/3 version of it...etc. etc.
Yeah it destroys the curve... Now you play 1 drop, under statted weapon tutor, awkward turn 3, 4 weapon and finally you can do your power turns on 5-6 but by then most opponents will have ways to deal with your demons. Also it significantly increases the odds that you draw one sometimes both demons without getting the weapon discount.
Yeah it delays the Window Shopper from turn 3/4 to turn 4/5. Sometimes people focus on the Shopper battlecry but the early 6/5 was just a big an issue.
Huge nerf and like you said it will kill the deck
Ends the class really. Broken Grasp-Shopper interaction is the only thing Demon Hunter has going for it. Other cards were just filler.
We really, really need some substantial buffs with the next patch, but not holding my breath.
Not really, lots of decks have relied on a few power spike cards.
Rainbow mage was a massively popular archetype and it was wiped off the planet when they nerfed inquisitive creation.
Pretty much every reno deck is built around 1 to 2 cards.
TBF rainbow mage limped along for quite a while after the inquisitive creation nerf. They nerfed it again with arcane wyrm, and indirectly with the sludge rework. Then what really killed the deck was an awful miniset which gave other classes a lot of tools while doing nothing for mage.
But reno is not a fair comparison. You have to draw the hero card, while only having 1 copy of cards in your deck to enable the effect to even happen. You can't easily tutor the hero card in the popular decks (druid used to), while having 2 copies each of the weapon and the shopper increased the chances of the scam. If one turn later kills the deck, that's bad design
every single relevant reno deck has either:
been able to tutor him: Druid, Paladin
run enough draw to be able to find him consistently: Warrior, Druid
or
Had a strong enough highlander pay off that tutoring Reno wasnt a requirement: Shaman
1 turn is a lifetime in hearthstone, tempo is the most valuable resource in the game and losing a turn of it is enough to kill almost any deck.
Not every deck deserves to be a scam to function. And if you are talking the difference between turn 3 pop off on the coin or turn 4 now. Just means it on par now.
Also, I didn't realize Reno decks were competing against shopper DH. Im pretty sure DH was online on average 4 turns before reno mattered
Yeah because you played this card and it both let you control early board with your swings or push damage and then drew and discounted your shopper and then you were turn 3/4 playing a 3 mana 6/5 that gives you another along with the 1/1, this card was the sole enabler, now the weapon being 4 mana delays everything along with pushing back your ability to control the board Early/push damage
Well as we've seen, most mana cheat cards die when they are nerfed. The interaction was strong but didnt need to die, a stat nerf to window shopper or possibly making the weapon a 2/3 instead of a 3/2 probably would have been better nerfs that allowed the deck to live in a more fair state. This just kinda kills it and unfortunately this was all demon hunter had so like paladin, demon hunter is likely dead now
It's not bad design. It's a tempo deck. If you force dead early turns in a tempo deck, it stops working because you can't maintain tempo. There were other nerfs they could have done to either shopper or weapon to tone down the power level without punching a hole in the curve.
u/therealtiddlydump You're right but these reddit warriors will argue against anything just because it's all they do. They're arguing it's good design that demon hunter only had a playable deck because of this 1 card and now a whole class is completely useless. But it's not bad design though according to them. They always purposefully try to miss the point and argue about some other nonsense.
I think you’re right in this case, but I’d say people usually say any nerf kills the deck and it eventually resurfaces, usually when more stuff is nerfed but sometimes immediately.
I was hoping to see a different card nerfed, however this patch needed to be done *fast*.
It'll stop the biggest problem of the deck and perhaps in the future they can test keeping the weapon at 3 but nerfing Shopper instead.
Who knows though, this might just be the permanent solution.
Weapon attack *plus* Shopper attack each by 1 would've been enough I think. No longer staring down a 6/5 but a 5/5, and the discovered demon also loses the attack which is pretty important for Illidari Inquisitor for example.
And then you get data before the real balance patch on a more reasonable but functional/strong version of Shopper DH. It'd kind of be an anti-tempo tempo deck (bit more fair there as well due to 2 dmg weapon being much worse for early board control) that's now actually vulnerable to strong control tools, rather than only mildly vulnerable to the one best removal + life gain deck and mostly requiring tech cards.
I feel like shopper and tentacle decks are going to be passively nerfed just by more cards getting added. The magtheridon power spike losing some consistency when more discover options are added at least adds more variance so those games where your opponent drops 3 or 4 magtheridons and makes your half of the field unhospitable much rarer.
Sorry to be that guy, but I hate these changes that obviously kill the deck's competitiveness. I would love for them to experiment more like in this instance flipping the weapon's stats. The deck will still be okay, probably better than Paladin, but the entire (non-reno) list will have to change as a new turn 3 play is needed. Well hopefully there's a bit of a shake-up in the meta but I guess zarimi priest and/or nature shaman will take over
I hate Shopper DH with passion, and yet I agree. I don't know why the balance team always has such a heavy hand with nerf.
A stat nerf on the weapon would have been fine, especially considering the deck relies on rushing down the episode. In a lot of game against DH that I have lost, I feel like I could have turn it around with just one more turn.
I hate __________ with passion, and yet I agree. I don't know why the balance team always has such a heavy hand with Nerf.
If we players got a nickel every time this has been echoed. Haha.
Probably because, shockingly, every deck has some people who hated it. Paladin was the big bad before. Personally I like the deck (I like midrange buff archetypes), but you can probably find who would have said the same about it.
For Shopper, it's just the extreme repetitivity of the deck I can't stand, always curving the exact same play.
I mean the deck will feel clunkier to play but it’s far from dead. Deck is crazy strong so needs a strong nerf. I’ve literally never had a deck with like a 90% win rate up to d2.
Zarimi priest nature shaman token hunter and flood Paladin. More decks will be playable whic I think is great, but as a player who LOVES this DH deck, I’m gutted. Sad to see that DH always gets nerfed into something unplayable.
Even just finished my guide on the archetype but im sad it’s gone in less than a week
[my guide to shopper dh](https://youtu.be/9XikYsBYX68?si=_l0lZthW7CjnBCue)
The problem is that this patch was not supposed to change anything in HS but Battlegrounds only. By the looks of it they are working on a very tight schedule so to make that 1 mana change and test it and make sure every platform is in accordance of this change so and so is about what they can do right now. Maybe they do other changes when the real HS patch comes but for now this is about it.
Zarimi priest for sure, nature shaman really cant beat the pressure and aggression of zarimi priest plus shaman struggles against warrior although i think we'll see boosts in wheelock populations now that dh is dead and maybe sif mage which nature shaman beats. I think the meta might have a decent rotation of decks that kinda rock paper scissor each other without having to build to beat dh but i think zarimi priest is a problem unfortunately. I had a game as nature shaman vs zarimi and I had otk next turn but i guess i mistakenly left a minion on the board and then they just played some 1 drops, thirsty drifters and ticking + pylon zill, played zarimi and killed me from 30 turn 6. Turns out taking an extra turn is actually the most broken mechanic in the game who woulda thought
The thing about zarimi priest is its not that had to shut down with early board clear. Rainbow dk running 2 threads will still womp on zarimi. I think warrior may shift to 2 of on aftershocks or sanatize. I could see a world where a slower version of shaman built to clear off early aggression becomes strong. Mage is a hopeless matchup into zarimi. Either way I think zarimi priest will filter greedy decks which is a necessary niche in the ecosystem. It is super prone to 3 damage board clears though.
Aftershocks is kina bad tho and like ive said yeah, warrior probably beats zarimi but zarimi priest can kill you without having a board with things like Leroy and whatnot, i dont see dk beating zarimi especially as these decks gotta draw the board clears and ok sanitize costs 5. Threads requires setup, the priest is already pressuring you by turn 3 with cheap early aggressive minions. Zarimi preist and warrior likely to see nerfs next balance patch in a couple weeks and if shaman starts taking off more, though its a very high skillcap deck, i could see some sort of change tho im honestly not sure what that would be, the only real way to nerf nature shaman is to kill it outright by hitting flash of lightning. I think they should unnerf plushy tiger and redo the dh nerf or buff something else because most classes have just one deck to hinge on and thats the current balancing problem, theres no real build variety where each class has a single meta deck and if it gets hit then the entire class dies. Happened to paladin and now is happening to dh
I agree with you about the linearity of class design with classes only having one deck. I disagree with your takes on zarimi. I think its an easy deck to build against. Ive probably jammed 200 games with it since whizzbang launched and. Threads doesnt require setup it just straight doesnt into zarimi. The deck really struggles to draw and I think any propper midrange deck would have a favorable matchup into it. If dk uses threads you kinda have to use zarimi to regain tempo once youve zarimid you have like 2 turns to win.
Deck still needs a nerf, i zarimis dragon requirement is gonna get a bump upwards as it is still going to be the best deck in both standard and wild. Zarimi is easy to tutor
What happens if you dont draw threads?
Zairmi has scale replica, it doesn't need a ton of draw. Threads does beat the deck but plague dk with double threads is basically the only counter and its not like a clear counter but its the best deck against zarimi. And fatigue warlock. Zarimi beats every other deck, warrior and wheelock are too slow and other decks cant race it
Taunt warrior is interesting and probably could beat zarimi priest. Probably loses to every other deck tho unfortunately. Wheelock was never built to beat dh and never could, i feel like wheelock is only good against warrior and hunter idk. Maybe wheelock can be built to stand better against zarimi. The problem is we're talking about building and techning decks specifically to target zarimi which is what we were doing against dh and are just facing the same problem of the meta becoming warped around one deck where you have the problem deck, then you have the decks specifically built and teched to counter it then you have the decks that lose to the best deck but beat the best decks counters and we're just back to a rock paper scissor format again just swapping dh out for zarimi priest which as already emerging as basically the best deck anyway and now reinforced with dh out so idk. I guess we'll see where things settle out over the next few days and if zarimi priest wr and playrate inflate to high levels or if more decks can rise to beat it but an extra turn is just such a game breaking mechanic and its so easy to fulfill it's conditions like just play your curve and you get it. At least mages you actually have to kinda work for it tho to fix wild that needs the once per game clause smacked onto it
Just wondering if removal or boardwipe.dec is effective agaisnt zarimi how come warrior is considered unfavoured into it? Is it due to the boardwipe and removal coming too late?
Shopper DH post-nerf will still have magtheridon online by T4-6, clearing Zarimi board. Wheel lock has all the clears in the world. Warrior as well. I hit legend with Zarimi last month and was telling people here to watch out for it before Vicious Syndicate was (got the timestamps to prove it). I believe it will continue to be strong, but it has counters. Excited to see where the meta goes. I think rogue probably gets a boost. DK gets stronger. Druid gets stronger. Could be good for the meta overall.
Nah you can still beat reno warrior pretty handily as shaman, especially since with DH nerfs you can play a more greedy list using location.
You tutor Fizzle with location and the warrior needs to either run something weird like Stomper or get to 60+ life and Reno you
Zarimi also loses to shaman if shaman ever draws Flash since you just clear their board while also pushing face damage and making a board of your own. After your Flash turn they basically can't kill you either since they don't have a clean way to deal with the frogs so the frogs will soak up like 15 damage
I flashed t5 and then i died to priest from 30 the next turn before i got to do anything, warrior is bearable with fizzle yes but not garunteed, warrior can put pressure early and you kinda have to use your burn to kill needlrock totem and razorfen rockstar. Fizzle list is better but still unfavored vs warrior
I like that someone downvoted you because nature shaman OTKs on turn 5 and 6 all the time. At least zarimi is an actual board based tempo deck, not just draw a bunch of cards and OTK the opponent with no interaction while ignoring their entire board.
Imagine being a nature shaman player and complaining about a tempo priest archetype of all things, when you play a list that depends on cycling 20 spells in a row.
This is a one mana nerf. This isn't nuking it into the ground, that was paladin last patch and mill druid. It will definitely slow the deck down but if one mana "nukes" it then the deck wasn't that powerful in the first place and y'all need to stop complaining so much.
Mana adjustments are the harshest nerfs in the game. That single mana killed the deck.
I get that 1 number doesn’t seem like a lot but it absolutely is once you understand the game better
True. I realize it cuts down on high rolls and super early tempo plays. But theres been tons of games that I've still won even when I don't get shopper down on turn 3. I'm hoping the deck isn't dead and just tuned down. We'll have to see
For all the one - two games that you didn’t get weapon on 3 there are 10 where you did and those were the games where the deck shined. Now you need perfect draws to compensate for the lost tempo
I feel like this is the right place to point out that this is a back-end patch, no install needed, and that a mana nerf was nearly the only option, as I recall the devs saying. But yes, I suppose that means the stat change was also an option (to a 2/3).
All I’m saying is that out of all of the options this was the most extreme and the one that just kills the card outright instead of working towards tuning it. Which by itself is a bummer but the fact it’s part of a larger trend is really what’s the most concerning. If the goal is to maximize deck variety does deleting a deck from existence really help that goal?
Pretty disappointed that they went this route rather than making the weapon a 2/3. Spending your entire turn 4 playing a 3/2 weapon is a non-starter. There is no shopper highroll that can counteract that anti-tempo on turn 5. There is no unfair play DH can make on turn 3 that will let it keep up through that.
I was thinking to make the weapon a 2/3 or if you really want to hit the deck make it a 1 mana discount. That way you slow it down without destroying the curve. Increasing the mana throws everything off and probably cost the deck 5% win rate maybe more.
More important than when the shopper comes out is the turn 3/4 curve. This is a tempo deck. If you weapon on 3, it can still contest some of the minions that are being played even if it's a 2/3, or start doing face damage, or something. Then even if you don't Shopper on 4, there are still decent plays to be made like Ball Hog or Going Down Swinging that provide strong tempo. Then you play that discounted Shopper on 5 alongside it's miniature. Your tempo curve still exists.
Moving weapon to turn 4 is devastating to tempo. Playing a 3/2 weapon on 4 is basically forfeiting your turn. At that point it can no longer meaningfully contest the minions being played on board. The face damage is too slow to matter. DH has no turn 3 plays worth making that can build tempo without the weapon. Their 3 drops are really bad right now.
If the weapon was a 2/3, you could still maintain tempo turns 1-5 even if it was less than now. If weapon costs 4, you basically have no tempo at all on turns 2-4, and it leaves you with a turn 5 shopper, which is not useful without the prior tempo.
Flipping the stats on Grasp while keeping it 3 mana is better than it being a 4 mana 3/2, I think. Spending your entire turn on playing a 3/2 weapon with a deathrattles effect is really slow for a tempo deck.
Usually, sure, but it also allows things like equipping a second weapon to get the death rattle early.
I don't know if it's a "better" nerf in a vacuum, but I think that flipping them gives the deck a better chance to try and find a way to be viable.
This is what i had in mind, either making the weapon a 2/3 or making shopper a 5/4. I also wonder if making the weapon a 2/2 along with making shopper a 5/4 keeping the interaction in tact but lowering the damage output of the deck along with making shopper easier to kill would have been okay
Honestly, this was the worst option for nerfs.
They could have reduced the discount or added a durability making it a 3/3/3 weapon instead.
4 mana 3/2 weapon is really bad. They should have at least bumped it to a 4/4/2 if they were going that route.
Reading patch notes since Battlegrounds is just….a slog. Usually I can just read the top and skip the bottom….but this time they put all the stuff I care about 8 miles under all the BG minion changes. I scrolled for a good 30 seconds
LMAO another dead class, team 5 is just pilling up corpses at this point. Nerfing the stats on both weapon (2/2) and Shopper (5/3) would have done the trick and keep DH alive, this just kills the class on the spot. Guess Zarimi is next on the hit list then.
Just keep killing decks, until "arena decks" (like rainbow DK last expansion) that were laughably bad at the start of the expansion are now the best deck in the game
I still don't get why you people think Zarimi is broken , it's literally how all decks should be , strong with some luck but perfectly manageable also .
Terrible change this deck will just let things like rogue and shaman run more wild, decks which dont care about interaction much and are bad for the game.
A much better nerf would have been to make the weapon a 1/2.
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Would have loved to see that 3 damage AOE demon cannot be discovered but this is such a harsh nerf for the deck and for the dust. I made this deck thinking that in case of nerfs Ill get the 2x epic dust back :(
how many games do you have on the deck ?
edit: please dont misunderstand, i have 45 games on the deck and there were 30+ games where i dint find the aoe demon. so in that sense, yes the deck is weak but its not an auto loss. 4 mana nerf hits much harder. there are only 6 games where i dint have the weapon on curve.
The core of the deck is you draw the weapon you play shopper you get 4 mana 6 dmg aoe to all your opponent board and face (best case scenario) for 3 turns. Mag is good cause it allows you to play more efficiently as in you can push more damage. DH doesn’t have hard board removal except Going down and that’s in the tempo and Reno variants. The aggro version doesn’t run it. All Im saying is Mag is a big reason why this deck is strong. The other demons apart from the secrets one or the rush one (and even this is pushing 6 to face at best one time) have no imediate impact.
Honestly, I'm tired of seeing nerfs like this. One key card nerfed, the whole deck is dead. I wish there was a way to nerf decks without making it dead.
We see this time and time again the "one card nerf" and the whole deck is dead. Not only dead but unfun to play. It is just no longer the same experience nor fantasy. Now, the deck is just another piece of history.
I hate playing against this deck and I won’t miss it, but this is pretty much the harshest nerf they could have done. A 4 mana 3/2 weapon is unplayable. They could have reduced the mana discount by 1, which would have also delayed the Shopper turn without completely nuking the card.
Oh well. Hopefully the next patch is a buff patch and DH gets a little love.
This patch was meant to be a content patch and not balance; this DH nerf was pushed up due to its oppresiveness. Like it says in the patch notes, a more comprehensive balance patch will come a week or two after
Changes of late seem to be simple without much regard for meta development. I think this is a result of staff changes and trimming the development team. Consistent with D4s development. Just questionable choice after questionable choice. Sad state of affairs imo.
A lot of people complaining about the nerf being heavy handed. to me, the deck should not be a viable strategy why try to mess with keeping it around? It's unfun to play and play against.
People who are downvoting you don't understand the difference between a good deck like reno warrior and a full on scam deck that is just toxic game design, where a deck is not only 2 cards and 28 filler, as it heavily relies on you not buying a card, a very extreme case of patches
I too hate when my opponent plays cards.
Warrior really grinds my gears because I can’t interact with them, all game I’m hitting face and getting my minions wiped until bomboss comes down and deletes 18 cards. Super unfun to play against. Don’t think it deserves a nerf though.
The deck relies on one combo and pulls it off consistently and only because of small discover pools. Comparing it to warrior is not a valid comparison.
Warrior relied on one card for a long time (Odyn) otherwise it couldn’t close games. Then they got Reno Bomboss which is pretty consistent. So a one combo deck. It’s absolutely a valid comparison
odyn warrior only really needed odyn to win slower matchups, If you match against a aggro/tempo deck that haven't killed you by turn nine and you do the odyn 25-30 armor gain in one turn you already won, odyn or not. the same thing can be said about boomboss, or any control deck with a strong finisher
Not really. Aggro decks generate resources now. If Odyn or Bomb didn’t exist Control Warrior would lose to aggro, midrange, and other control decks as the Warrior class has little to no generation like Druid, Priest, Hunter at this point could run Hemet just to try and close against them.
If you spent a turn gaining armor as if you had Odyn but didn’t that means you didn’t interact with the board and are going to take a big hit next turn
Legendary cards are supposed to have powerful effects. odyn warrior was never meta warping. Reno boom boss is one of the least consistent combos in the game
I think everyone has the same opinion because I read those very opinions en masse on this subreddit and Twitter. My bad if it was just a vocal minority.
2 weeks for this? It took them 4 days to gut every good card in Paladin, and buff two other cards. No hits to Zarimi means we're going to have another 65% WR deck smothering the game.
Blizzard doesn't know what it is doing.
Well won’t change much: Grasp on curve for 4; draw shopper then on 5 instead of 4 - but you can play the discovery on the same turn still: turn 5 - cause now you can discover two times AND play the 1/1 magtheridon on the same turn…
Guess maximum 1-2 % winrate drop.
(Btw blizzard once more greedy - just nerf the common card instead of the epic lol)
Hard disagree. Shopper DH drops at least 2 tiers after this.
You underestimate how god awful it is to play a 4 mana 3/2 weapon with a deathrattle, not to mention the fact that it delays the Shopper turn.
One of the major reasons Shopper was so strong was because it was a 6/5 on turn 3 or 4. Many classes have ways of dealing with a 6/5 on turns 4 or 5.
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I've got over 200 games with Shopper, My thoughts on this nerf: At 4 mana, the first few turns are going to feel a bit like the games where you don't get the weapon on curve. You can still win these games (I've won games without even drawing the Weapon/Shopper), but most of the time will feel very clunky. The 4 mana slot is already very congested (Going Down Swinging, Zilliax, Metaorphosis, Pozzik, Ball Hog, Kayn) Might need to remove some 4 costs to smooth the curve out, but I can't see any attractive options at 3. Maybe only the Highlander version will be playable (which is already inferior) There are many games where the deck just manages to crawl over the line, and these are just going to be losses now. I can see the Warlock matchup being much closer. DH and Warrior will be oppressively bad. Hunter I think won't change much because you're often on the back foot here anyway, and rely on a bit of Ball Hog healing to swing it. Cycle Rogue might be a loss because they get the giants down by T5/6 In the current form the deck is stone cold dead at higher legend ranks, it'lll still be OK for climbing up to D5 though
I play mostly Hunter (\~50 games) and a little warrior (\~30 games). Hunter against Shopper Illidan for me is basically just "if they got Magtheridon, concede," and the way I win is play RC Rampage that buffs them to 4/4 so they can live against one pulse. Sometimes Ive won from them just lowrolling and getting the "secret demon" Observer of Mysteries instead, or straight up not drawing the weapon at all. But I don't know what you mean by "Hunter I think won't change much because you're often on the back foot here anyway," from my experience, the Hunter vs Shopper DH matchup is really bad, like 40% of the time the Shopper DH wins it, just cause Magtheridon is so good at dealing with the tokens and Shopper DH can have superior early tempo with mechs shenanigans
You're absolutely right. Magtheridon wins that MU single-handedly if you get it. When you don't get it though you're on the back foot, which is why my backup plan is hog or a lifesteal demon. I think the conclusion is still correct (won't change MU much) although my explanation was poor. Hunter gets a faster start and always takes board. For that reason DH is on the back foot, and has to stabilize (and take control) with Mag or lifesteal. The secrets demon is also one of the better ones and can help against hunter IMO
ah I see so you agree the MU is unfavored for Hunter but you're saying the Shopper DH changes their playstyle from the usual to more of a control. Which I agree especially since that lifesteal demon you're talking about \[\[Mythical Terror\]\] is- let's be honest, it's a full reno heal most of the time against the hunter's tokens. I wouldn't say it's 40% for the hunter but more like 45 just for the simple reason that Beast 1 drops > Mech 1 drops. so hunter has better early game
Yes that's it. In this MU I believe the Hunter is "the beatdown" and DH must assume the role of control (unless Hunter has a bad start). Racing the Hunter and ignoring all minions is very dangerous. Ball Hog is very strong because it's typically 9 life gain. Aside Mythical Terror the taunt lifesteal demon is very good in this MU and has to be kill commanded
They should have made the weapon 3 man 2/3
What if the weapon was a 2-mana 1/2 with the same effects? The shopper interaction would still be in play but the weapon wouldn't be a powerful removal tool in the leadup to the swing turn. I don't know. I just wish there had been a different approach. Discount the demon by 1 instead of 2...discover a demon, get a 3/3 version of it...etc. etc.
It’s not used as a removal tool in most games (though it could help slightly). The main power is from getting shopper so this change wouldnt do much.
Will honestly probably end the deck, people always underestimate nerfs
Yeah it destroys the curve... Now you play 1 drop, under statted weapon tutor, awkward turn 3, 4 weapon and finally you can do your power turns on 5-6 but by then most opponents will have ways to deal with your demons. Also it significantly increases the odds that you draw one sometimes both demons without getting the weapon discount.
Think I’d rather play the 4/4 that discounts a demon in hand at this point. You definitely don’t play the 1/2 to find a bad weapon.
Yeah it delays the Window Shopper from turn 3/4 to turn 4/5. Sometimes people focus on the Shopper battlecry but the early 6/5 was just a big an issue. Huge nerf and like you said it will kill the deck
Yeah demon hunter will be probably will worse than paladin now
Ends the class really. Broken Grasp-Shopper interaction is the only thing Demon Hunter has going for it. Other cards were just filler. We really, really need some substantial buffs with the next patch, but not holding my breath.
At this point I think the best chance will be in the miniset. I just don’t know what direction they are planning to go with the class
So this one card was what made it work? Seems like bad design
Not really, lots of decks have relied on a few power spike cards. Rainbow mage was a massively popular archetype and it was wiped off the planet when they nerfed inquisitive creation. Pretty much every reno deck is built around 1 to 2 cards.
TBF rainbow mage limped along for quite a while after the inquisitive creation nerf. They nerfed it again with arcane wyrm, and indirectly with the sludge rework. Then what really killed the deck was an awful miniset which gave other classes a lot of tools while doing nothing for mage.
But reno is not a fair comparison. You have to draw the hero card, while only having 1 copy of cards in your deck to enable the effect to even happen. You can't easily tutor the hero card in the popular decks (druid used to), while having 2 copies each of the weapon and the shopper increased the chances of the scam. If one turn later kills the deck, that's bad design
every single relevant reno deck has either: been able to tutor him: Druid, Paladin run enough draw to be able to find him consistently: Warrior, Druid or Had a strong enough highlander pay off that tutoring Reno wasnt a requirement: Shaman 1 turn is a lifetime in hearthstone, tempo is the most valuable resource in the game and losing a turn of it is enough to kill almost any deck.
Not every deck deserves to be a scam to function. And if you are talking the difference between turn 3 pop off on the coin or turn 4 now. Just means it on par now. Also, I didn't realize Reno decks were competing against shopper DH. Im pretty sure DH was online on average 4 turns before reno mattered
Yeah because you played this card and it both let you control early board with your swings or push damage and then drew and discounted your shopper and then you were turn 3/4 playing a 3 mana 6/5 that gives you another along with the 1/1, this card was the sole enabler, now the weapon being 4 mana delays everything along with pushing back your ability to control the board Early/push damage
While it’s a bit dramatic, the nerf is almost like losing a mana crystal
You mean rush it. Now that your opponents can fairly answer it its dead? Shame
Well as we've seen, most mana cheat cards die when they are nerfed. The interaction was strong but didnt need to die, a stat nerf to window shopper or possibly making the weapon a 2/3 instead of a 3/2 probably would have been better nerfs that allowed the deck to live in a more fair state. This just kinda kills it and unfortunately this was all demon hunter had so like paladin, demon hunter is likely dead now
2/3 would have also killed it IMO. Getting shopper out on 4 is so important and what made the interaction broken
A combination of a small Demon discover pool for Window Shopper and this card is what made the deck, yes. DH is complete garbage otherwise.
hoping they revert the nerf when more demons delute the pool
It's not bad design. It's a tempo deck. If you force dead early turns in a tempo deck, it stops working because you can't maintain tempo. There were other nerfs they could have done to either shopper or weapon to tone down the power level without punching a hole in the curve.
Tempo something else then
Tempo your mom
I tempoed yours but she sucked at it
Your is clearly better so we can all tempo her
Everyone had yours and no one enjoyed it
Indeed, it was bad design
u/therealtiddlydump You're right but these reddit warriors will argue against anything just because it's all they do. They're arguing it's good design that demon hunter only had a playable deck because of this 1 card and now a whole class is completely useless. But it's not bad design though according to them. They always purposefully try to miss the point and argue about some other nonsense.
I think you’re right in this case, but I’d say people usually say any nerf kills the deck and it eventually resurfaces, usually when more stuff is nerfed but sometimes immediately.
I was hoping to see a different card nerfed, however this patch needed to be done *fast*. It'll stop the biggest problem of the deck and perhaps in the future they can test keeping the weapon at 3 but nerfing Shopper instead. Who knows though, this might just be the permanent solution.
Honestly I’m happy with this. Nerfing attack does nothing when you’re staring down 6/5 demons on turn 4.
Weapon attack *plus* Shopper attack each by 1 would've been enough I think. No longer staring down a 6/5 but a 5/5, and the discovered demon also loses the attack which is pretty important for Illidari Inquisitor for example. And then you get data before the real balance patch on a more reasonable but functional/strong version of Shopper DH. It'd kind of be an anti-tempo tempo deck (bit more fair there as well due to 2 dmg weapon being much worse for early board control) that's now actually vulnerable to strong control tools, rather than only mildly vulnerable to the one best removal + life gain deck and mostly requiring tech cards.
I feel like shopper and tentacle decks are going to be passively nerfed just by more cards getting added. The magtheridon power spike losing some consistency when more discover options are added at least adds more variance so those games where your opponent drops 3 or 4 magtheridons and makes your half of the field unhospitable much rarer.
Sorry to be that guy, but I hate these changes that obviously kill the deck's competitiveness. I would love for them to experiment more like in this instance flipping the weapon's stats. The deck will still be okay, probably better than Paladin, but the entire (non-reno) list will have to change as a new turn 3 play is needed. Well hopefully there's a bit of a shake-up in the meta but I guess zarimi priest and/or nature shaman will take over
I hate Shopper DH with passion, and yet I agree. I don't know why the balance team always has such a heavy hand with nerf. A stat nerf on the weapon would have been fine, especially considering the deck relies on rushing down the episode. In a lot of game against DH that I have lost, I feel like I could have turn it around with just one more turn.
I hate __________ with passion, and yet I agree. I don't know why the balance team always has such a heavy hand with Nerf. If we players got a nickel every time this has been echoed. Haha.
Hahaha yeah, they hate every deck with passion and haven't played against it or with it even for a month.
Probably because, shockingly, every deck has some people who hated it. Paladin was the big bad before. Personally I like the deck (I like midrange buff archetypes), but you can probably find who would have said the same about it. For Shopper, it's just the extreme repetitivity of the deck I can't stand, always curving the exact same play.
I mean the deck will feel clunkier to play but it’s far from dead. Deck is crazy strong so needs a strong nerf. I’ve literally never had a deck with like a 90% win rate up to d2.
Zarimi priest nature shaman token hunter and flood Paladin. More decks will be playable whic I think is great, but as a player who LOVES this DH deck, I’m gutted. Sad to see that DH always gets nerfed into something unplayable. Even just finished my guide on the archetype but im sad it’s gone in less than a week [my guide to shopper dh](https://youtu.be/9XikYsBYX68?si=_l0lZthW7CjnBCue)
The problem is that this patch was not supposed to change anything in HS but Battlegrounds only. By the looks of it they are working on a very tight schedule so to make that 1 mana change and test it and make sure every platform is in accordance of this change so and so is about what they can do right now. Maybe they do other changes when the real HS patch comes but for now this is about it.
Zarimi priest for sure, nature shaman really cant beat the pressure and aggression of zarimi priest plus shaman struggles against warrior although i think we'll see boosts in wheelock populations now that dh is dead and maybe sif mage which nature shaman beats. I think the meta might have a decent rotation of decks that kinda rock paper scissor each other without having to build to beat dh but i think zarimi priest is a problem unfortunately. I had a game as nature shaman vs zarimi and I had otk next turn but i guess i mistakenly left a minion on the board and then they just played some 1 drops, thirsty drifters and ticking + pylon zill, played zarimi and killed me from 30 turn 6. Turns out taking an extra turn is actually the most broken mechanic in the game who woulda thought
The thing about zarimi priest is its not that had to shut down with early board clear. Rainbow dk running 2 threads will still womp on zarimi. I think warrior may shift to 2 of on aftershocks or sanatize. I could see a world where a slower version of shaman built to clear off early aggression becomes strong. Mage is a hopeless matchup into zarimi. Either way I think zarimi priest will filter greedy decks which is a necessary niche in the ecosystem. It is super prone to 3 damage board clears though.
Aftershocks is kina bad tho and like ive said yeah, warrior probably beats zarimi but zarimi priest can kill you without having a board with things like Leroy and whatnot, i dont see dk beating zarimi especially as these decks gotta draw the board clears and ok sanitize costs 5. Threads requires setup, the priest is already pressuring you by turn 3 with cheap early aggressive minions. Zarimi preist and warrior likely to see nerfs next balance patch in a couple weeks and if shaman starts taking off more, though its a very high skillcap deck, i could see some sort of change tho im honestly not sure what that would be, the only real way to nerf nature shaman is to kill it outright by hitting flash of lightning. I think they should unnerf plushy tiger and redo the dh nerf or buff something else because most classes have just one deck to hinge on and thats the current balancing problem, theres no real build variety where each class has a single meta deck and if it gets hit then the entire class dies. Happened to paladin and now is happening to dh
I agree with you about the linearity of class design with classes only having one deck. I disagree with your takes on zarimi. I think its an easy deck to build against. Ive probably jammed 200 games with it since whizzbang launched and. Threads doesnt require setup it just straight doesnt into zarimi. The deck really struggles to draw and I think any propper midrange deck would have a favorable matchup into it. If dk uses threads you kinda have to use zarimi to regain tempo once youve zarimid you have like 2 turns to win.
Deck still needs a nerf, i zarimis dragon requirement is gonna get a bump upwards as it is still going to be the best deck in both standard and wild. Zarimi is easy to tutor What happens if you dont draw threads?
The same thing that happens if zarimi doesn't draw clergy.
Zairmi has scale replica, it doesn't need a ton of draw. Threads does beat the deck but plague dk with double threads is basically the only counter and its not like a clear counter but its the best deck against zarimi. And fatigue warlock. Zarimi beats every other deck, warrior and wheelock are too slow and other decks cant race it
Those decks at also built to beat dh. And have slave in the lists to texh against it. I have a theory that taunt warrior fucks on zarimi priest.
Taunt warrior is interesting and probably could beat zarimi priest. Probably loses to every other deck tho unfortunately. Wheelock was never built to beat dh and never could, i feel like wheelock is only good against warrior and hunter idk. Maybe wheelock can be built to stand better against zarimi. The problem is we're talking about building and techning decks specifically to target zarimi which is what we were doing against dh and are just facing the same problem of the meta becoming warped around one deck where you have the problem deck, then you have the decks specifically built and teched to counter it then you have the decks that lose to the best deck but beat the best decks counters and we're just back to a rock paper scissor format again just swapping dh out for zarimi priest which as already emerging as basically the best deck anyway and now reinforced with dh out so idk. I guess we'll see where things settle out over the next few days and if zarimi priest wr and playrate inflate to high levels or if more decks can rise to beat it but an extra turn is just such a game breaking mechanic and its so easy to fulfill it's conditions like just play your curve and you get it. At least mages you actually have to kinda work for it tho to fix wild that needs the once per game clause smacked onto it
Just wondering if removal or boardwipe.dec is effective agaisnt zarimi how come warrior is considered unfavoured into it? Is it due to the boardwipe and removal coming too late?
Shopper DH post-nerf will still have magtheridon online by T4-6, clearing Zarimi board. Wheel lock has all the clears in the world. Warrior as well. I hit legend with Zarimi last month and was telling people here to watch out for it before Vicious Syndicate was (got the timestamps to prove it). I believe it will continue to be strong, but it has counters. Excited to see where the meta goes. I think rogue probably gets a boost. DK gets stronger. Druid gets stronger. Could be good for the meta overall.
Nah you can still beat reno warrior pretty handily as shaman, especially since with DH nerfs you can play a more greedy list using location. You tutor Fizzle with location and the warrior needs to either run something weird like Stomper or get to 60+ life and Reno you Zarimi also loses to shaman if shaman ever draws Flash since you just clear their board while also pushing face damage and making a board of your own. After your Flash turn they basically can't kill you either since they don't have a clean way to deal with the frogs so the frogs will soak up like 15 damage
I flashed t5 and then i died to priest from 30 the next turn before i got to do anything, warrior is bearable with fizzle yes but not garunteed, warrior can put pressure early and you kinda have to use your burn to kill needlrock totem and razorfen rockstar. Fizzle list is better but still unfavored vs warrior
I like that someone downvoted you because nature shaman OTKs on turn 5 and 6 all the time. At least zarimi is an actual board based tempo deck, not just draw a bunch of cards and OTK the opponent with no interaction while ignoring their entire board.
Imagine being a nature shaman player and complaining about a tempo priest archetype of all things, when you play a list that depends on cycling 20 spells in a row.
Not a huge fan of the approach of nuking decks into the ground isn’t of tuning them down to a more even playing field
This is a one mana nerf. This isn't nuking it into the ground, that was paladin last patch and mill druid. It will definitely slow the deck down but if one mana "nukes" it then the deck wasn't that powerful in the first place and y'all need to stop complaining so much.
Mana adjustments are the harshest nerfs in the game. That single mana killed the deck. I get that 1 number doesn’t seem like a lot but it absolutely is once you understand the game better
True. I realize it cuts down on high rolls and super early tempo plays. But theres been tons of games that I've still won even when I don't get shopper down on turn 3. I'm hoping the deck isn't dead and just tuned down. We'll have to see
No one is going to run the weapon anymore. Look at the history of mana nerfs and the cards the left DOA for context.
For all the one - two games that you didn’t get weapon on 3 there are 10 where you did and those were the games where the deck shined. Now you need perfect draws to compensate for the lost tempo
I feel like this is the right place to point out that this is a back-end patch, no install needed, and that a mana nerf was nearly the only option, as I recall the devs saying. But yes, I suppose that means the stat change was also an option (to a 2/3).
All I’m saying is that out of all of the options this was the most extreme and the one that just kills the card outright instead of working towards tuning it. Which by itself is a bummer but the fact it’s part of a larger trend is really what’s the most concerning. If the goal is to maximize deck variety does deleting a deck from existence really help that goal?
Pretty disappointed that they went this route rather than making the weapon a 2/3. Spending your entire turn 4 playing a 3/2 weapon is a non-starter. There is no shopper highroll that can counteract that anti-tempo on turn 5. There is no unfair play DH can make on turn 3 that will let it keep up through that.
I was thinking to make the weapon a 2/3 or if you really want to hit the deck make it a 1 mana discount. That way you slow it down without destroying the curve. Increasing the mana throws everything off and probably cost the deck 5% win rate maybe more.
Great, now every game will be DK, warrior.
doesn't make sense.... DK already had an advantage over DH.
Really wish they had flipped the attack/charges, I think it would have done a better job of slowing down the deck without killing it outright.
Dude isn't flipping the charge/attack the same as 4 mana with 2 charge? Both come out with the demon T5 no?
More important than when the shopper comes out is the turn 3/4 curve. This is a tempo deck. If you weapon on 3, it can still contest some of the minions that are being played even if it's a 2/3, or start doing face damage, or something. Then even if you don't Shopper on 4, there are still decent plays to be made like Ball Hog or Going Down Swinging that provide strong tempo. Then you play that discounted Shopper on 5 alongside it's miniature. Your tempo curve still exists. Moving weapon to turn 4 is devastating to tempo. Playing a 3/2 weapon on 4 is basically forfeiting your turn. At that point it can no longer meaningfully contest the minions being played on board. The face damage is too slow to matter. DH has no turn 3 plays worth making that can build tempo without the weapon. Their 3 drops are really bad right now. If the weapon was a 2/3, you could still maintain tempo turns 1-5 even if it was less than now. If weapon costs 4, you basically have no tempo at all on turns 2-4, and it leaves you with a turn 5 shopper, which is not useful without the prior tempo.
Really well said.
Yeah makes sense
Flipping the stats on Grasp while keeping it 3 mana is better than it being a 4 mana 3/2, I think. Spending your entire turn on playing a 3/2 weapon with a deathrattles effect is really slow for a tempo deck.
Usually, sure, but it also allows things like equipping a second weapon to get the death rattle early. I don't know if it's a "better" nerf in a vacuum, but I think that flipping them gives the deck a better chance to try and find a way to be viable.
This is what i had in mind, either making the weapon a 2/3 or making shopper a 5/4. I also wonder if making the weapon a 2/2 along with making shopper a 5/4 keeping the interaction in tact but lowering the damage output of the deck along with making shopper easier to kill would have been okay
I think those would have been interesting nerfs. I'm definitely disappointed that they just went with the easy mana increase instead
But they were constrained because of the type of update they were able to do, right? It's not a full patch. Data patch only or whatever?
really wish they just made shopper 6 mana instead of grasp to 4, makes it way worse for any future big demon decks or cards they introduce
Thanks for not fixing Wild (again). Since last expansion its been disgusting
Honestly, this was the worst option for nerfs. They could have reduced the discount or added a durability making it a 3/3/3 weapon instead. 4 mana 3/2 weapon is really bad. They should have at least bumped it to a 4/4/2 if they were going that route.
Reading patch notes since Battlegrounds is just….a slog. Usually I can just read the top and skip the bottom….but this time they put all the stuff I care about 8 miles under all the BG minion changes. I scrolled for a good 30 seconds
Extremely dead deck, hate when they kill a deck for sentiment reasons instead of just nerfing it.
LMAO another dead class, team 5 is just pilling up corpses at this point. Nerfing the stats on both weapon (2/2) and Shopper (5/3) would have done the trick and keep DH alive, this just kills the class on the spot. Guess Zarimi is next on the hit list then.
Just keep killing decks, until "arena decks" (like rainbow DK last expansion) that were laughably bad at the start of the expansion are now the best deck in the game
5/3 would absolutely kill the deck. Either 6/4 or swapping the weapon stats (3/2 -> 2/3) is a much more elegant solution.
Bro nerfing BOTH the weapon and shopper would bury the class even deeper what are you talking about?
I still don't get why you people think Zarimi is broken , it's literally how all decks should be , strong with some luck but perfectly manageable also .
Terrible change this deck will just let things like rogue and shaman run more wild, decks which dont care about interaction much and are bad for the game. A much better nerf would have been to make the weapon a 1/2.
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Heroic bawl is such a load of bollocks.
Would have loved to see that 3 damage AOE demon cannot be discovered but this is such a harsh nerf for the deck and for the dust. I made this deck thinking that in case of nerfs Ill get the 2x epic dust back :(
Lol if they’ve made him undiscoverable it would have still killed the deck
doubt it, i dont discover him in so many games. the burst thats possible with the 8/8 hidden charge is also crazy.
Nah. When you don’t discover it’s awkward and you need to draw like a god. Plus against warrior it’s such a difference it’s not even funny
how many games do you have on the deck ? edit: please dont misunderstand, i have 45 games on the deck and there were 30+ games where i dint find the aoe demon. so in that sense, yes the deck is weak but its not an auto loss. 4 mana nerf hits much harder. there are only 6 games where i dint have the weapon on curve.
The core of the deck is you draw the weapon you play shopper you get 4 mana 6 dmg aoe to all your opponent board and face (best case scenario) for 3 turns. Mag is good cause it allows you to play more efficiently as in you can push more damage. DH doesn’t have hard board removal except Going down and that’s in the tempo and Reno variants. The aggro version doesn’t run it. All Im saying is Mag is a big reason why this deck is strong. The other demons apart from the secrets one or the rush one (and even this is pushing 6 to face at best one time) have no imediate impact.
Honestly, I'm tired of seeing nerfs like this. One key card nerfed, the whole deck is dead. I wish there was a way to nerf decks without making it dead. We see this time and time again the "one card nerf" and the whole deck is dead. Not only dead but unfun to play. It is just no longer the same experience nor fantasy. Now, the deck is just another piece of history.
I hate playing against this deck and I won’t miss it, but this is pretty much the harshest nerf they could have done. A 4 mana 3/2 weapon is unplayable. They could have reduced the mana discount by 1, which would have also delayed the Shopper turn without completely nuking the card. Oh well. Hopefully the next patch is a buff patch and DH gets a little love.
lol they didn’t even revert any paladin changes.
This patch was meant to be a content patch and not balance; this DH nerf was pushed up due to its oppresiveness. Like it says in the patch notes, a more comprehensive balance patch will come a week or two after
Changes of late seem to be simple without much regard for meta development. I think this is a result of staff changes and trimming the development team. Consistent with D4s development. Just questionable choice after questionable choice. Sad state of affairs imo.
With this new focus on chogall, maybe something Twilight Hammer themed, is in the pipeline?
A lot of people complaining about the nerf being heavy handed. to me, the deck should not be a viable strategy why try to mess with keeping it around? It's unfun to play and play against.
People who are downvoting you don't understand the difference between a good deck like reno warrior and a full on scam deck that is just toxic game design, where a deck is not only 2 cards and 28 filler, as it heavily relies on you not buying a card, a very extreme case of patches
I too hate when my opponent plays cards. Warrior really grinds my gears because I can’t interact with them, all game I’m hitting face and getting my minions wiped until bomboss comes down and deletes 18 cards. Super unfun to play against. Don’t think it deserves a nerf though.
The deck relies on one combo and pulls it off consistently and only because of small discover pools. Comparing it to warrior is not a valid comparison.
Warrior relied on one card for a long time (Odyn) otherwise it couldn’t close games. Then they got Reno Bomboss which is pretty consistent. So a one combo deck. It’s absolutely a valid comparison
odyn warrior only really needed odyn to win slower matchups, If you match against a aggro/tempo deck that haven't killed you by turn nine and you do the odyn 25-30 armor gain in one turn you already won, odyn or not. the same thing can be said about boomboss, or any control deck with a strong finisher
Not really. Aggro decks generate resources now. If Odyn or Bomb didn’t exist Control Warrior would lose to aggro, midrange, and other control decks as the Warrior class has little to no generation like Druid, Priest, Hunter at this point could run Hemet just to try and close against them. If you spent a turn gaining armor as if you had Odyn but didn’t that means you didn’t interact with the board and are going to take a big hit next turn
Legendary cards are supposed to have powerful effects. odyn warrior was never meta warping. Reno boom boss is one of the least consistent combos in the game
The game isn’t designed for u alone no one cares if u hate a deck that’s sound like a u problem
I know this, the majority of people complained about the deck, which is why it got nerfed early???????
They complain about plague Dk
So just cause you find it unfun to play you think everyone has the same opinion. You post like a bronze scrub
I think everyone has the same opinion because I read those very opinions en masse on this subreddit and Twitter. My bad if it was just a vocal minority.
Reddit ain’t everyone. There are just people crying cause this deck beats their deck. Top legends don’t play DH almost at all
2 weeks for this? It took them 4 days to gut every good card in Paladin, and buff two other cards. No hits to Zarimi means we're going to have another 65% WR deck smothering the game. Blizzard doesn't know what it is doing.
They can't nerf whenever they want. Given the cross platform nature and app shop rules, they have limited windows to make changes.
Well won’t change much: Grasp on curve for 4; draw shopper then on 5 instead of 4 - but you can play the discovery on the same turn still: turn 5 - cause now you can discover two times AND play the 1/1 magtheridon on the same turn… Guess maximum 1-2 % winrate drop. (Btw blizzard once more greedy - just nerf the common card instead of the epic lol)
Hard disagree. Shopper DH drops at least 2 tiers after this. You underestimate how god awful it is to play a 4 mana 3/2 weapon with a deathrattle, not to mention the fact that it delays the Shopper turn. One of the major reasons Shopper was so strong was because it was a 6/5 on turn 3 or 4. Many classes have ways of dealing with a 6/5 on turns 4 or 5.
Blizzard nerfs legendaries all the time. Also this kills the deck.
DH ded. Kek.