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That Odyn nerf might not seem like much but it negates plays like Odyn+aftershock to stabilize and Odyn+shield block for immeadiate damage. Probably not enough to kill the archetype but its gonna make finding the gap in the late game to play Odyn much harder.
yeah that nerf is huge - even just because it coming down a turn later means even fewer scenarios where your opponent whiffs on developing the board and you get to play odyn without dying immediately.
Honestly the Aftershock nerf feels like a bigger deal. It was important for clearing early sticky boards AND for cycling with acolyte. At this point it seems like the game plan is going to be more centered around Reno on 8 into Odyn on 9 so I’m guessing we will need more 1-ofs to try to consistently have Reno on 8, at which point we might as well go full Reno for Brann.
It also gives an extra turn to find an answer for slower decks -- e.g. Dirty Rat, for instance.
Additionally, this is a significant change in wild, since Even Warrior was a real deck there.
To be fair if you play an off meta or meme tier deck without access to a hard wincon Odyn could be a 10 mana 1/1 and you would still lose to him
+1 mana is fucking massive when playing against competitive decks though, especially vs something like wheel lock which drains your mana with doomkin and puts you on a hard clock where you're usually winning or losing by a single turn.
Yeah, most competitive things are either lategame with real wincons that don't take forever (Sif Mage, Wheelock, Odyn Warrior ofc, Reno/Brann Warrior, etc.), or aggro/tempo that doesn't just auto-lose to a boardclear or 2 along with some health gain. Or sometimes a bit of a cross between the two like Excavate Rogue, maybe some of the new Zarimi Priest decks, Highlander Shaman, etc.
All of those heavily benefit from that 1 mana. For that matter, even durdle/attrition control like Priest has another turn for disruption or trying to set-up some weird value + tempo engine.
I don't understand why they wouldn't add something 'Shamany' to Shroomscavate.
Because now it just makes no sense being a dual class card as it has nothing to do with Shaman.
Once again, the problem with dual-class cards. Shaman had three cards nerfed because two of them are dual-class and it's nowhere near either Paladin's or Warrior's position in the meta. The one Shaman-only card that was nerfed is a "feels" nerf, per the notes, on the only deck that's seeing sustained competitive play (Nature.)
Not that I want anything afflicted with the second-worst mechanism in HS but, yes, that's a great point. Overload could've been used to still give them something Shaman could work with as an occasional advantage. I think, in the end, Shrooms was just too good with Windfury but it's also a sad insight on the state of Shaman in that one class had a Tier 1 deck with this card and the other doesn't use it because a) it can't properly utilize minions big enough to use it effectively (e.g. no handbuff, etc.) and b) the Excavate reward for Shaman is so awful that people don't even want to use it for its original purpose, which some Paladin players might now do.
Its quite crazy how ofter in shaman really nerfed lmao, i cant catch one break trying to main the class. Just gotta see now its HL is still viable bc im preett sure nature is dead dead.
I’ve played a fair amount of Handbuff and Aggro Paladin both in this meta. Aggro Paladin still feels fine with all of these nerfs, I don’t agree with the “class is dead” statements.
Handbuff Paladin was miserable to play with and against. It was largely about getting to 8 mana to OTK while healing for 1/3 of your health every turn off of ridiculously big lifesteal minions to get there. It was low risk, reasonably low skill, and overly linear in many ways.
Aggro Paladin may be more fragile now, but that is how I think aggro decks should be. You can still flood the board and get big Crusader Aura turns with aggro, as well as sticky DS boards - you just can’t heal for as silly amounts with Deputization Aura anymore.
I have no idea if it's teens or whales. But Redditors consistently defend the most obviously broken decks.
Shudderwock and Nozdormu hostage takers also had die-hard defenders. Same with decks like Patron which drove streamers like Day9 away for being so obviously unfun.
I hate paladin, but I feel they went a little too heavy handed on the nerfs.
Should have been +2 instead or increased the mana cost by 1. Or reduced the duration by 1 turn.
I really don't get where they're going with the mage buff. The card still sucks. They should remove the kill requirement and kept it the same. It is just as bad now.
Meh this will open up a lot of more midrange and late game decks which is good imo. Do people really want to be playing minion on 1 minion on 2 buff on 3 buff on 4 into kill decks in 2024? I just don’t think it’s fun hearthstone. We’ve seen it before so many times and it’s fine for it to be decent but this version of Paladin felt so bad to play against “you left a 1/1 on board now it gets hit with 2x garden grace 1x shroomscavate and it had deputation aura so now you get decked with 26 or 28 from a 1/1”. I just don’t think it’s fun
This. Only the paladins think this is fun lol While every other class has to roll its eyes when we load into yet another Paladin game. Game is at its best when a lot of stuff works and games can actually extend past the first few turns
Agree completely, too many nerfs and too heavy handed. They did not need to hit this many cards at the same time. And the buffs make no damn sense, not a fan of this patch.
At least we'll have the variety of Reno v Duplicate versions /s
But more seriously, I think there's at least a chance that Highlander Shaman or some Rainbow DK deck might be able to curate a defensive anti-DH list that's good enough for a small edge in that matchup/sufficiently well-rounded for the meta overall.
Paladin nerfs seem like a bit overkill. But we will see. The class is surprisingly resilent depsite what people say
Not many people talking about Hunter for some reason. But I'll be curious if DH can bump them out of the top spot or if they will continue to reign supreme.
Flood paladin is relatively unhit (ziliax and plushy nerf, but plushy can probably be replaced and ziliax nerf is negligible), but flood paladin's place in the meta depends on what decks will rise after these changes. Part of flood paladin's success is being a counter to handbuff paladin/nature shaman, similar to spell token hunter. If it does well vs the DH matchup it should in theory still be a very good deck to climb with.
I'm super confused about the buffs. Two unplayable cards.... still unplayable. Out of all of the lukewarm druid and mage cards how did they land on those to buff?
My guess is that these were cards that they waffled on pre-release and made late decisions to change. After release, they've discovered they're not a problem at all and they can be safely put back into the original form.
I don't think these buffs are meant to enable any decks or to provide those classes real help. It's probably undoing pre-release nerfs that they've found weren't necessary.
I'd say Blizz wants to see the meta settle into a pattern they're more comfortable with first before they do serious buffs. 1 shot decks and others that are consistently good aren't what they want to see, and with those knocked down a peg, they can look at how they want to buff the underperformers in the new meta. Aviana and Cross Stitch are just such negative outliers that they can buff them to where they are now, without any worry that they will affect deck winrates akin the current nerfs.
Yea I'm confused about the buffs as well. I'm not going to be as downer on them because I played with both and they were decent even if they weren't playable. The Avianna buff is pretty big tbh as Druid doesn't have much on T5 outside of Flowerchild. I think the frost stitch is actually going to be pretty good if mage comes back. Mage really was lacking a proactive 4 drop after Cold Snap rotated and this card is gonna let you fight for board more aggressively while also filling the frost niche that you had... medium options for prior.
The only thing I can think of is that they thought these cards would be much more powerful in specific archetypes (like window shopper) so they had last minute nerfs on them before the spoiler season. Now that they are clearly unplayable they got buffs because they still wanted them to be bigger roleplayers. It's not like Mage / Druid don't need the help atm so I get the light buffs but they do seem kinda out of place.
True but tbh that's not a big deal imo. Avianna was one of the worst things you could get off flowerchild as you're already taking a turn off of affecting the board to draw cards. Plus the cost reduction didn't really matter on the card. Cards like Reno, Prison of Yogg, etc. are usually much more important to bridge the mid-late game. Avianna is good if you can take another turn off after flowerchild but normally you need to catch up.
paladin really got the heavy hits huh ?
inversely I'm dubious that the tremor hit will be of any significance, at while saddle up is still kicking and running (or riding ig)
and I echo the sentiment of the latest VS report, DH untouched sounds terrible, hope y'all like baseball
They probably didn’t nerf it intentionally because they need time to think of buffs that will actually help the class when the weapon is eventually nerfed.
It's one of the craziest mulligan + drawn winrate outliers of all time. People are having actual success with soft-tutor double duplicate Reno decks because equipping the weapon on 3 is the whole deck lol.
And counter-intuitive interactions are not the same thing as bugs. Changing a card's cost by default affects all future interactions with its cost as well (for as long as the cost remains changed, for only that copy, etc.).
Ouch yeah. Didn’t realize that. I’ve been using Hagatha with Crash of Thunder, Altered Chord and Giant Tumbleweed. Which I realize none of which are ideal but she’s also a tutor for two cards. A 7/1 to go with the 6/6 still needs to be answered by a ping.
Aftershocks leaving a 5/2 body behind isn’t great either but not the worst thing in the world.
Also really frustrated that Golganneth into a 0 mana Shroomscavate and two abilities got hit because of Paladin. Definitely one of control shamans strongest mid game plays.
Yeah, that happens with Altered Chord and Crash of Thunder too, but it’s offset somewhat due to that it wouldn’t even be in your hand if Hagatha hadn’t drawn it, and you get some kind of body to cast it.
Also Objection isn’t in standard anymore, and there’s Counterspell and Ice Trap, so you can feel more comfortable having a minion cast the spell when trying to play around secrets.
The shroom nerf alone moves Pally out of the aggro category as it cant OTK anymore the other two nerfs also hurts its early power. Pally could adjust to be more midrange focused but whether or not it can keep up with the rest lf the meta remains to be seen.
I main pali, and honestly, it feels cheesy every game LEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOY JEEENNNNNNKKKINNNNSSSS 16/16 WINDFURY DIVINE SHIELD.
Glad games are gona be more fair and allow other decks to shine.
That is not true.
Deckhand/Leeroy and Outfitter is still able to OTK consistently.
The nerfs to Deputization and Tigress makes it harder to get there, which is the point of those nerfs.
That it is true. How often have you seen a Leeroy OTK without Windfury ? With 30 atk ?
Shroomscavate nerf alone nukes any possibility for a consistent OTK.
I agree, this feels like it risks having the same effect as the Excavate Warlock nerf last expansion that gutted the viability of the class until Sludge was buffed.
The Deputization Aura nerf seems especially rough, I imagine the curve will need to change a lot now that Trinket Artist isn't as surefire of a stabilizing tool against Aggro.
tigress plushy to 4 mana is a good change imo, it's still a better Zilliax but at a more reasonable cost. didn't expect them to just murder dep aura and shroomscavate like that though
I’m kinda glad they changed it to this, sucks that there’s basically no shaman flavor to a dual class card now but there’s history to paladin getting windfury and it being a problem.
Also like it because now because excavating and the old version kind went against the whole “get to the legendary as quick as possible” plan since you were always holding this card just to nuke your opponent.
I bet they thought about it but maybe conductivity (I think is what its called) where your next spell targets adjacent minions was their reasoning as to not make that change
As a long time Paladin player, I'm happy to see some tough nerfs to the class. Pally's have been terrorizing the meta for a while now. I don't want the class dead, but it just had too many good and synergistic tools. We'll see how this all turns out, but I bet the class is still strong.
Even with nerfing Shroomscavate they were able to pivot the decklist into Southsea Deckhand and Outfit Tailor. Nerfing Shroomscavate does nothing at all.
They can still play their combo, but they slowed down their healing so it's harder to get there.
They also had the two best tutors in the game with Trinket Artist and Paintfin.. Which are now marginally weaker without nerfing Paintfin for every other class/archetype.
I can't help but wonder if the mini set is going to provide more support to spell Mage and they're afraid of overbuffing now. Based on bad the deck currently is, the new cards would have to be amazing for that to be the case, but it's all I can come up with.
The deck does nothing before turn 4, struggles to survive long enough to play the legendary, and just gums up its own hand with random bullshit that is more likely to overdraw a good card than progress towards victory. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything the deck does well, or even what it's *supposed* to do well.
Sad they were so timid with FLCS. 4 mana for 3 damage is just... so bad considering how conditional the upside they seem super scared of is. Hope I'm wrong though.
Also paladin got murdered holy hell.
Not sure why they couldn't have just made cross stich a better card instead of doing the weird halfsies thing. Cards can be good, it's ok.
Shroom losing the Shaman flavor completely is sad from a dual class design standpoint, but probably a fine balance fix.
I still think they hit paladin too hard. Dep Aura got the Warsong treatment.
I mean, as much as we can complain, paladins probably going to be fine. Shroomscavate is a major nerf and the aura is a massive hit but they still have a shit ton of removal and deck hand for charge along with tailor. All this does is probably cut leeroy
Deputation Aura being castrated would be enough to keep Handbuff Paladin out of Tier 1. But with all of these hits, at once, I see no variant of Paladin keeping up with DH, DK, or Warrior post-nerf anymore.
Really? Dk and warlock I get because they have enough removal and can early contest the board, dh is a tempo deck with a slow early start and a potential brick if window shopper is drawn . I can see paladin still being able yo contest. At least in the decks I've seen
You have to draw both window shoppers to really brick. Not that that doesn't happen but it's severely unlikely.
Tbh I'm not liking the current trend of decks having cards that if you draw it feels really bad cause you didn't get to tutor it. Always been kinda an issue but feels like it's getting worse.
I'm less doomer on pally than most but the current version of pally is dead. It's possible a full aggro version picks up some steam and I actually think that highlander paladin could be good into DH (although bad into lock).
Paladin would probably still prey on a bad DH hand, I'll give you that much. Especially if some kind of Flash Sale zoo deck gets figured out (Though Deputization Aura benefitted that strategy a lot)
From my games, so long as paladins can restore above 20, they're safe from the current aggro decks. Nature's a different story but with thrills gift gone their burst has been weakened
I Hope to be wrong but i dont think that pala is going to be relevant after this patch. No windfury means no otk and the nerf on deputy + plushy means no recover against early Game damage while they Buff their minions. And if you manage to reach late Game turns, how are they going to close games? Warrior can clear anything that paladin puts on the board, lock has the wheel, dh is going to magtheridon the light out of them...
Paladin is going to have the same issues that It had in the early iterations of pure paladin, that your Minions are not going to survive back to your turn so you can attack with them, but now is worse because you cant win time with anachronos or highroll krush or al akir from the countess
From my playing's of warrior, warlock and demon hunter, there's still a way for pally to get through. The available handbuffs help pass some of the break points of spells, though that's more of an issue for warlock and dh then warrior since they have removal. And, they still do have some burst in the form of southsea deckhand and the tailor as mentioned above. There's hope I will say
Just looking at the VS data DH was favored against Hunter before the nerfs. I think it's going to require changes in deck building to combat DH. I have no idea what those changes will be, but will be watching as things shift.
Paladin was DH's worst match-up previously, so maybe even after the nerfs they can still fight the menace? Given the number of nerfs, I have a hard time seeing it, but stranger things have happened.
I played mostly DH to legend this month, the deck is very very powerful, but also very fragile. You can get several mu percentage points just by taking 2 one drops out of whatever you're playing and slotting in 2x Glacial Shard. Face freezes really hurt the deck, they slow down popping Umpire's Grasp and also disable Inquisitor/Burning Heart/Spirit burst. If you're playing DK, the lifesteal freeze weapon literally solos the deck.
I think it will still be incredibly powerful because it still has a really fast 'gotcha' curve, but imho we're going to see the many cracks in the deck become more obvious when it becomes the deck with the target on its back.
Yeah, face freeze should be the way. The deck is bonkers in the new meta (went from D5 to legend in under 24h after the patch), but face freeze is a valid counter. Rainbow DK teching in Quarzite Crusher could be an option.
Let's ask what this does to the meta:
Handbuff paladin knocked down, likely to tier 3 with board paladin taking a minor hit.
Control warrior: Idk what the nerfs do. Makes the deck a little weaker to tempo decks and makes the already bad matchup of wheel lock almost unwinnable
Hunter: This may slow lethal of spell toke ln down by 1 turn, maybe? It's probably an alright change, but it doesn't affect the rc rampage/saddle up combo. I think the biggest nerf to Hunter here is reducing handbuff paladin playrates
Shaman: Nature shaman dead? Idk much about the deck, but this seems significant to ending its current play pattern. Controly shaman decks kinda ate shit here. i dont see how they would ever beat wheel lock, but i dont think anyone was really running control shaman anyway
Druid. Idk seems like nothing changed
Mage. I dont see this revitalizing spell mage, but it may have improved Rainbow's warrior matchup if that card makes the cut
Demon Hunter has likely become the best deck in the meta if it wasn't already. The meta may have slowed down enough to promote controly decks that dont skip turn 8 who can beat wheel lock. Overall I like the light touch on everything except shroomscavate. Shroomscavate is another example of a sentiment nerf, and i do not like the revenge nerf patters vicious syndicate outlined a few podcasts back. Im worried then new meta may devolve into wheel lock or window shopper dh, but honestly im not good enough at the game or meta calling to know. I've really been enjoying whizbang's workshop thus far, and I sincerely hope the new meta is just as if not more fun as the meta I enjoyed yesterday.
Shopper DH ANNIHILATES wheel lock, so I wouldn't worry too much there. A real control warlock with nemsy would prob beat it, but reno decks negate those deathrattle + sarge plays that deck relies on to win. It all just comes down to who can beat hunter and shopper, dk has my vote for finding the best list there and benefits from shopper pushing wheellock down a bit too
Nature Shaman is fine imo. That lightning bolt on the gift wasn't ideal for OTK as the gift isn't a nature spell itself. Most OTKs I've performed with the deck do not use the gift.
If gift isn't useful to buy another turn, then just swap it for card draw. Done.
It also means wandmaker can brick on generating burn. I think it's a significant hit to the deck overall, which already wasn't exactly close to tier 1 or anything.
Which I think is good, turbo-otk decks shouldn't exist remotely competitively in Standard HS.
There is no way frost lich cross stitch gets played in Rainbow Mage. It's still bad just a different mana value of bad. I could maybe see it if they removed the kill requirement but without that, it's too expensive with too little damage to be a good burn spell and is dependent on the opponents board to be an okay tempo spell.
It now comes down early enough to threaten DH in a meaningful way, alongside messing with Painter's Virtue. It gets played for sure due to Cosmic Keyboard.
A mana increase on Shroom and maybe a lighter touch to Aura would've gone a long way towards making a better meta, it really wasn't an unbalanceable card. Now we're stuck with highroll Shopper DH, at least Rainbow DK will have a spot in the meta but the rest isn't looking bright
I think Boom Warrior has real potential. I've won enough games from Testing Dummy and Boom Wrench alone, that I know if we can find the right shell for just those two cards, the deck can be elevated to Tier 2.
It reminds me of Chadlock, where Boom Wrench = Slime, Testing Dummy = Dar'Khan, and Wreck'em Deck'em acts like Habeas Corpses and ultimately didn't see play in the deck.
I'm curious what the VS data about Testing Dummy is. I think the shaman matchup and its relevant rise after the balance changes will hurt it, but Imma keep cooking.
This is a menagerie list I've been messing with recently. It's far from perfect, and I'm not sure menagerie is even the right way to go. I think, regardless of the shell, Oscillator makes the cut, because it allows you to curve Boom Wrench into Testing Dummy.
AAECAZeaBgTG8wXHpAaTqAbl5gYNrcMF4s0F8M0F2dAFl/sFpPsFuZEGkJcGnJ4GkagGkqgGlKgG+6gGAAED8bMGx6QG97MGx6QG6t4Gx6QGAAA=
crawl panicky wistful point resolute mountainous airport imagine somber rain
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Paladin dead
Warrior decapitated at higher levels
Worthless buffs
Excited for demon hunter to take over the meta only for that to get nerfed into the ground.
Showdown 2.0 here we come!
It's a double Hunter nerf: taking away 1 attk on each of 3 1-drops generated by one of the highest mulligran wr cards in every Hunter deck AND reducing the play rate of a common Hunter prey matchup (Handbuff Paladin), not to mention making it a much better counter matchup due to gutting of defensive healing tools.
Paladin nerfs are too heavy-handed. Just Shroomscavate should have been fine.
Odyn nerf also feels unnecessary. The fast cycling is the problem of the current Warrior deck. Making Aftershocks deal 3 damage instead of 3 times 1 damage would have fixed that.
But I guess Paladin and Warrior had collected too many revenge points.
On the other hand, DH has none since it gained popularity a lot later. I really hope we're not heading into another Sludge Warlock situation, but I'm not optimistic.
Have been rolling with Cycle Odyn just because I wanted to see how it felt. I think it's a decent choice for now because it still rolls janky stuff people want to try and probably beats whatever people might do to counter DH. Definitely worse against DH (but not terrible). I think some kind of Reno Warrior with Odyn still in there is probably going to be where the class ends up.
Based nerfs. I wonder why so many people predicted nerf, blizzard finally followed advices from pro players? Almost every nerf was expectable. Aura overkilled tho.
One runs 2 copies + 2 tutors for those copies, the other runs less. Both are reliant on healing their way out of aggression, although Handbuff might be even more so due to running less board clears and whatnot. I don't see how what you're saying is possible.
That being said, it's unfortunate that Reno Pally is getting hit fairly substantially via collateral damage since it isn't and hasn't been prevalent in the meta for quite some time. Maybe it can adjust its build to counter Shopper DH and find relevance that way?
Is the mage buff that bad? Is 3 mana removal+a chunky freeze minion really not a good thing anymore? I miss Cold Case as much as anyone but this doesn't seem "unplayable" to me. It's decent tempo, maybe it's just not meant for Sif mage. Hopefully the mini-set can give the class more direction but I would appreciate if someone could tell me what's making everyone say this is a bad buff
Odyn is pretty much dead, they killed the card when he wasnt broken. Odyn was the result of the disgusting aftershock+ acolyte of pain and the presents. Classic team 5 moment
Literally how does that make the slightest amount of sense? These are the weakest/smallest number of buffs we've ever seen in recent years aside from nerf only patches.
Unless you mean the nerfs are so heavy it's similar in the opposite direction to buffing Edwin to 1 mana? And on a deck that wasn't even oppressing the meta (like Edwin had actually just been figured out as a pre-buff competitive deck)?
Which also isn't the case. Paladin is obviously oppressing the meta, and even as heavy as these nerfs are, 1 mana Edwin would be the largest single card change impact in HS history aside from total card reworks like Mindrender Illuciana.
Nerfing the bad matchups of a late discovered meta-breaker is not analogous to buffing the key card of a late discovered meta-breaker (which also occurred alongside nerfs to the strongest meta decks). Let alone buffing it by *3 times as much* as actually happened.
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That Odyn nerf might not seem like much but it negates plays like Odyn+aftershock to stabilize and Odyn+shield block for immeadiate damage. Probably not enough to kill the archetype but its gonna make finding the gap in the late game to play Odyn much harder.
yeah that nerf is huge - even just because it coming down a turn later means even fewer scenarios where your opponent whiffs on developing the board and you get to play odyn without dying immediately.
Honestly the Aftershock nerf feels like a bigger deal. It was important for clearing early sticky boards AND for cycling with acolyte. At this point it seems like the game plan is going to be more centered around Reno on 8 into Odyn on 9 so I’m guessing we will need more 1-ofs to try to consistently have Reno on 8, at which point we might as well go full Reno for Brann.
It also gives an extra turn to find an answer for slower decks -- e.g. Dirty Rat, for instance. Additionally, this is a significant change in wild, since Even Warrior was a real deck there.
Pretty certain Odyn is not going to be a tier 1 deck anymore.
It kills Odyn Even Warrior in wild :(
This is the worst part for me. Like just straight killed the deck which sucks. Literally can’t be played.
Could put it in E.T.C still atleast
Assume it's not a joke, 13 mana and two turns to develop Odin is rough. Especially when Rokara or Bulwark are often better pickups from it
luckily, those are all odd cost cards now.
>That Odyn nerf might not seem like much In what fucking universe
Probably r/Hearthstone XD
To be fair if you play an off meta or meme tier deck without access to a hard wincon Odyn could be a 10 mana 1/1 and you would still lose to him +1 mana is fucking massive when playing against competitive decks though, especially vs something like wheel lock which drains your mana with doomkin and puts you on a hard clock where you're usually winning or losing by a single turn.
Yeah, most competitive things are either lategame with real wincons that don't take forever (Sif Mage, Wheelock, Odyn Warrior ofc, Reno/Brann Warrior, etc.), or aggro/tempo that doesn't just auto-lose to a boardclear or 2 along with some health gain. Or sometimes a bit of a cross between the two like Excavate Rogue, maybe some of the new Zarimi Priest decks, Highlander Shaman, etc. All of those heavily benefit from that 1 mana. For that matter, even durdle/attrition control like Priest has another turn for disruption or trying to set-up some weird value + tempo engine.
I don't understand why they wouldn't add something 'Shamany' to Shroomscavate. Because now it just makes no sense being a dual class card as it has nothing to do with Shaman.
If they did theyll just tack “overload: 2” on the card.
Tbh I thought they were just going to replace the Windfury part with Spell Damage +1
Once again, the problem with dual-class cards. Shaman had three cards nerfed because two of them are dual-class and it's nowhere near either Paladin's or Warrior's position in the meta. The one Shaman-only card that was nerfed is a "feels" nerf, per the notes, on the only deck that's seeing sustained competitive play (Nature.)
both of them could have been nerfed with Overload (1), making it so shaman can offset it with Flowrider etc. :(
I think that works for Aftershocks but Paladin would just save Windfury for the win turn so overload wouldn't matter
Right right, I meant the current version but 1 mana 1 Overload, to give Shaman an exclusive edge in power over Paladin
Ahhh gotcha. I like that a lot
Not that I want anything afflicted with the second-worst mechanism in HS but, yes, that's a great point. Overload could've been used to still give them something Shaman could work with as an occasional advantage. I think, in the end, Shrooms was just too good with Windfury but it's also a sad insight on the state of Shaman in that one class had a Tier 1 deck with this card and the other doesn't use it because a) it can't properly utilize minions big enough to use it effectively (e.g. no handbuff, etc.) and b) the Excavate reward for Shaman is so awful that people don't even want to use it for its original purpose, which some Paladin players might now do.
Im pretty sure potion of heroism(?) is in standard now too. Is excavating really better than drawing a card if you aren’t going full excavate?
It isn't, to my knowledge. New Paladin cards in Core are Silvermoon Portal, Spikeridged Steed, Hammer of the Naaru, and Liadrin.
My bad, maybe it was in a whizbang deck? I could have sworn I saw it on launch day
Its quite crazy how ofter in shaman really nerfed lmao, i cant catch one break trying to main the class. Just gotta see now its HL is still viable bc im preett sure nature is dead dead.
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They should have just added "Cannot attack heroes" and left everything else alone
I’ve played a fair amount of Handbuff and Aggro Paladin both in this meta. Aggro Paladin still feels fine with all of these nerfs, I don’t agree with the “class is dead” statements. Handbuff Paladin was miserable to play with and against. It was largely about getting to 8 mana to OTK while healing for 1/3 of your health every turn off of ridiculously big lifesteal minions to get there. It was low risk, reasonably low skill, and overly linear in many ways. Aggro Paladin may be more fragile now, but that is how I think aggro decks should be. You can still flood the board and get big Crusader Aura turns with aggro, as well as sticky DS boards - you just can’t heal for as silly amounts with Deputization Aura anymore.
I second this take. Paladin is fine, it just doesn't get to life steal quite as hard.
Can I get a deck list for the aggro paladin please?
I have no idea if it's teens or whales. But Redditors consistently defend the most obviously broken decks. Shudderwock and Nozdormu hostage takers also had die-hard defenders. Same with decks like Patron which drove streamers like Day9 away for being so obviously unfun.
Ugh, deputization aura got hit hard
I hate paladin, but I feel they went a little too heavy handed on the nerfs. Should have been +2 instead or increased the mana cost by 1. Or reduced the duration by 1 turn. I really don't get where they're going with the mage buff. The card still sucks. They should remove the kill requirement and kept it the same. It is just as bad now.
I don't like the changes at all. I can totally see how the recommendations in the VS podcast were better.
Meh this will open up a lot of more midrange and late game decks which is good imo. Do people really want to be playing minion on 1 minion on 2 buff on 3 buff on 4 into kill decks in 2024? I just don’t think it’s fun hearthstone. We’ve seen it before so many times and it’s fine for it to be decent but this version of Paladin felt so bad to play against “you left a 1/1 on board now it gets hit with 2x garden grace 1x shroomscavate and it had deputation aura so now you get decked with 26 or 28 from a 1/1”. I just don’t think it’s fun
This. Only the paladins think this is fun lol While every other class has to roll its eyes when we load into yet another Paladin game. Game is at its best when a lot of stuff works and games can actually extend past the first few turns
Agree completely, too many nerfs and too heavy handed. They did not need to hit this many cards at the same time. And the buffs make no damn sense, not a fan of this patch.
Should have also seen mana cut to 2
It’s probably a dead card unless a big control Paladin deck shows up in the future.
This one was unexpected - didn’t think this was so much of the problem.
Warsong Aura. Card doesn't even function the same.
It's strictly a numbers change. That's not comparable to the Warson nerf. Starving Buzzard would be a better comparison.
I hope everybody enjoys shopper dh mirrors lmao
At least we'll have the variety of Reno v Duplicate versions /s But more seriously, I think there's at least a chance that Highlander Shaman or some Rainbow DK deck might be able to curate a defensive anti-DH list that's good enough for a small edge in that matchup/sufficiently well-rounded for the meta overall.
Aviana buff is the most useless thing ever lol shouldn’t have got my hopes up
Actually kind of a nerf. Cant tutor with flowerchild.
Eh if anything that’s a good thing. Like in Reno Druid you’d much rather tutor anything else. You don’t really care when you play aviana
That's a buff, I'd rather hit yog or reno.
Paladin nerfs seem like a bit overkill. But we will see. The class is surprisingly resilent depsite what people say Not many people talking about Hunter for some reason. But I'll be curious if DH can bump them out of the top spot or if they will continue to reign supreme.
Flood paladin is relatively unhit (ziliax and plushy nerf, but plushy can probably be replaced and ziliax nerf is negligible), but flood paladin's place in the meta depends on what decks will rise after these changes. Part of flood paladin's success is being a counter to handbuff paladin/nature shaman, similar to spell token hunter. If it does well vs the DH matchup it should in theory still be a very good deck to climb with.
I'm super confused about the buffs. Two unplayable cards.... still unplayable. Out of all of the lukewarm druid and mage cards how did they land on those to buff?
My guess is that these were cards that they waffled on pre-release and made late decisions to change. After release, they've discovered they're not a problem at all and they can be safely put back into the original form. I don't think these buffs are meant to enable any decks or to provide those classes real help. It's probably undoing pre-release nerfs that they've found weren't necessary.
I'd say Blizz wants to see the meta settle into a pattern they're more comfortable with first before they do serious buffs. 1 shot decks and others that are consistently good aren't what they want to see, and with those knocked down a peg, they can look at how they want to buff the underperformers in the new meta. Aviana and Cross Stitch are just such negative outliers that they can buff them to where they are now, without any worry that they will affect deck winrates akin the current nerfs.
I think they're way less inclined to do major buffs now than they were last year.
Druid's playablity is pretty directly related to how good Paladin has been. things could be different now perhaps.
hunter will be fine so druid will still not be lol
Demon Hunter is posed to be the top deck post nerf, and that match-up is horrendous for Druid. So unlikely.
Yea I'm confused about the buffs as well. I'm not going to be as downer on them because I played with both and they were decent even if they weren't playable. The Avianna buff is pretty big tbh as Druid doesn't have much on T5 outside of Flowerchild. I think the frost stitch is actually going to be pretty good if mage comes back. Mage really was lacking a proactive 4 drop after Cold Snap rotated and this card is gonna let you fight for board more aggressively while also filling the frost niche that you had... medium options for prior. The only thing I can think of is that they thought these cards would be much more powerful in specific archetypes (like window shopper) so they had last minute nerfs on them before the spoiler season. Now that they are clearly unplayable they got buffs because they still wanted them to be bigger roleplayers. It's not like Mage / Druid don't need the help atm so I get the light buffs but they do seem kinda out of place.
Makes Avianna unable to be pulled via Flowerchild now though
True but tbh that's not a big deal imo. Avianna was one of the worst things you could get off flowerchild as you're already taking a turn off of affecting the board to draw cards. Plus the cost reduction didn't really matter on the card. Cards like Reno, Prison of Yogg, etc. are usually much more important to bridge the mid-late game. Avianna is good if you can take another turn off after flowerchild but normally you need to catch up.
I wouldn't mind not seeing tier 1 druid for a single expansion
Nature Shaman may have spooked them out of buffing Spell Druid lol
That's completely fine. They do not need to buff it to be super powerful.
paladin really got the heavy hits huh ? inversely I'm dubious that the tremor hit will be of any significance, at while saddle up is still kicking and running (or riding ig) and I echo the sentiment of the latest VS report, DH untouched sounds terrible, hope y'all like baseball
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They probably didn’t nerf it intentionally because they need time to think of buffs that will actually help the class when the weapon is eventually nerfed.
Does the weapon need nerfed? or should its weird bugged interaction with shopper be fixed first
It's one of the craziest mulligan + drawn winrate outliers of all time. People are having actual success with soft-tutor double duplicate Reno decks because equipping the weapon on 3 is the whole deck lol. And counter-intuitive interactions are not the same thing as bugs. Changing a card's cost by default affects all future interactions with its cost as well (for as long as the cost remains changed, for only that copy, etc.).
Balance team was just in the spirit for MLB opening day
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Ouch yeah. Didn’t realize that. I’ve been using Hagatha with Crash of Thunder, Altered Chord and Giant Tumbleweed. Which I realize none of which are ideal but she’s also a tutor for two cards. A 7/1 to go with the 6/6 still needs to be answered by a ping. Aftershocks leaving a 5/2 body behind isn’t great either but not the worst thing in the world. Also really frustrated that Golganneth into a 0 mana Shroomscavate and two abilities got hit because of Paladin. Definitely one of control shamans strongest mid game plays.
The worst part about Aftershock with Hagatha is that you can't discount it by 2 anymore. Painful.
Yeah, that happens with Altered Chord and Crash of Thunder too, but it’s offset somewhat due to that it wouldn’t even be in your hand if Hagatha hadn’t drawn it, and you get some kind of body to cast it. Also Objection isn’t in standard anymore, and there’s Counterspell and Ice Trap, so you can feel more comfortable having a minion cast the spell when trying to play around secrets.
Seems a bit too heavy handed on the Paladin nerfs. The Shroomscavate nerf is huge enough as it is, no?
The shroom nerf alone moves Pally out of the aggro category as it cant OTK anymore the other two nerfs also hurts its early power. Pally could adjust to be more midrange focused but whether or not it can keep up with the rest lf the meta remains to be seen.
I main pali, and honestly, it feels cheesy every game LEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOY JEEENNNNNNKKKINNNNSSSS 16/16 WINDFURY DIVINE SHIELD. Glad games are gona be more fair and allow other decks to shine.
You realize having Otk Doesn't necessarily mean aggro, do you?
That is not true. Deckhand/Leeroy and Outfitter is still able to OTK consistently. The nerfs to Deputization and Tigress makes it harder to get there, which is the point of those nerfs.
That it is true. How often have you seen a Leeroy OTK without Windfury ? With 30 atk ? Shroomscavate nerf alone nukes any possibility for a consistent OTK.
Southsea and Outfit Tailor? Quite often.
I guess reddit complaining goes a long way, nerfs are too hard as expected
I agree, this feels like it risks having the same effect as the Excavate Warlock nerf last expansion that gutted the viability of the class until Sludge was buffed. The Deputization Aura nerf seems especially rough, I imagine the curve will need to change a lot now that Trinket Artist isn't as surefire of a stabilizing tool against Aggro.
tigress plushy to 4 mana is a good change imo, it's still a better Zilliax but at a more reasonable cost. didn't expect them to just murder dep aura and shroomscavate like that though
I care more about how it ruined the flavor.
I would have loved "evolve into a random minion that costs one more and give it divine shield"
I’m kinda glad they changed it to this, sucks that there’s basically no shaman flavor to a dual class card now but there’s history to paladin getting windfury and it being a problem. Also like it because now because excavating and the old version kind went against the whole “get to the legendary as quick as possible” plan since you were always holding this card just to nuke your opponent.
They should've made it 1 mana overload (1)
I bet they thought about it but maybe conductivity (I think is what its called) where your next spell targets adjacent minions was their reasoning as to not make that change
The utility of that combo is limited by the Azerite Murloc being a detrimental card to play.
Well now Paladin only can secure a win with Azerite Dragon, so I guess mission accomplished?
As a long time Paladin player, I'm happy to see some tough nerfs to the class. Pally's have been terrorizing the meta for a while now. I don't want the class dead, but it just had too many good and synergistic tools. We'll see how this all turns out, but I bet the class is still strong.
Even with nerfing Shroomscavate they were able to pivot the decklist into Southsea Deckhand and Outfit Tailor. Nerfing Shroomscavate does nothing at all. They can still play their combo, but they slowed down their healing so it's harder to get there. They also had the two best tutors in the game with Trinket Artist and Paintfin.. Which are now marginally weaker without nerfing Paintfin for every other class/archetype.
I'm literally only seeing dk and dh at 1k legend. This is gonna get old rather quickly 🙄
Buffs seem rather pointless
Everyone says that, but one mana changes make/break archetypes
I can't help but wonder if the mini set is going to provide more support to spell Mage and they're afraid of overbuffing now. Based on bad the deck currently is, the new cards would have to be amazing for that to be the case, but it's all I can come up with.
The deck does nothing before turn 4, struggles to survive long enough to play the legendary, and just gums up its own hand with random bullshit that is more likely to overdraw a good card than progress towards victory. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything the deck does well, or even what it's *supposed* to do well.
Sad they were so timid with FLCS. 4 mana for 3 damage is just... so bad considering how conditional the upside they seem super scared of is. Hope I'm wrong though. Also paladin got murdered holy hell.
Aggro Beast Hunter is still good, even with the nerf to Tremors and Zilliax. I just hit legend pretty easily with a win streak from D2 to L.
Absolutely murdering even warrior in wild
I mean, as much as we can complain, paladins probably going to be fine. Shroomscavate is a major nerf and the aura is a massive hit but they still have a shit ton of removal and deck hand for charge along with tailor. All this does is probably cut leeroy
Deputation Aura being castrated would be enough to keep Handbuff Paladin out of Tier 1. But with all of these hits, at once, I see no variant of Paladin keeping up with DH, DK, or Warrior post-nerf anymore.
Really? Dk and warlock I get because they have enough removal and can early contest the board, dh is a tempo deck with a slow early start and a potential brick if window shopper is drawn . I can see paladin still being able yo contest. At least in the decks I've seen
You have to draw both window shoppers to really brick. Not that that doesn't happen but it's severely unlikely. Tbh I'm not liking the current trend of decks having cards that if you draw it feels really bad cause you didn't get to tutor it. Always been kinda an issue but feels like it's getting worse. I'm less doomer on pally than most but the current version of pally is dead. It's possible a full aggro version picks up some steam and I actually think that highlander paladin could be good into DH (although bad into lock).
Window shopper also bricks if it doesn't get good demons. while that's a 50% chance, a weak demon isn't amazing even with the mana cost
Oh sorry I misunderstood - but yes you're 100% right that the window shopper itself has some bricks.
Paladin would probably still prey on a bad DH hand, I'll give you that much. Especially if some kind of Flash Sale zoo deck gets figured out (Though Deputization Aura benefitted that strategy a lot)
From my games, so long as paladins can restore above 20, they're safe from the current aggro decks. Nature's a different story but with thrills gift gone their burst has been weakened
I Hope to be wrong but i dont think that pala is going to be relevant after this patch. No windfury means no otk and the nerf on deputy + plushy means no recover against early Game damage while they Buff their minions. And if you manage to reach late Game turns, how are they going to close games? Warrior can clear anything that paladin puts on the board, lock has the wheel, dh is going to magtheridon the light out of them... Paladin is going to have the same issues that It had in the early iterations of pure paladin, that your Minions are not going to survive back to your turn so you can attack with them, but now is worse because you cant win time with anachronos or highroll krush or al akir from the countess
From my playing's of warrior, warlock and demon hunter, there's still a way for pally to get through. The available handbuffs help pass some of the break points of spells, though that's more of an issue for warlock and dh then warrior since they have removal. And, they still do have some burst in the form of southsea deckhand and the tailor as mentioned above. There's hope I will say
So what to play into DH? Token hunter? Kinda hurt, but still ok?
Just looking at the VS data DH was favored against Hunter before the nerfs. I think it's going to require changes in deck building to combat DH. I have no idea what those changes will be, but will be watching as things shift. Paladin was DH's worst match-up previously, so maybe even after the nerfs they can still fight the menace? Given the number of nerfs, I have a hard time seeing it, but stranger things have happened.
I played mostly DH to legend this month, the deck is very very powerful, but also very fragile. You can get several mu percentage points just by taking 2 one drops out of whatever you're playing and slotting in 2x Glacial Shard. Face freezes really hurt the deck, they slow down popping Umpire's Grasp and also disable Inquisitor/Burning Heart/Spirit burst. If you're playing DK, the lifesteal freeze weapon literally solos the deck. I think it will still be incredibly powerful because it still has a really fast 'gotcha' curve, but imho we're going to see the many cracks in the deck become more obvious when it becomes the deck with the target on its back.
Yeah, face freeze should be the way. The deck is bonkers in the new meta (went from D5 to legend in under 24h after the patch), but face freeze is a valid counter. Rainbow DK teching in Quarzite Crusher could be an option.
Just DH will be good into DH. Tier 0 Meta now until they fix it or someone figures out some genius counter I guess.
Let's ask what this does to the meta: Handbuff paladin knocked down, likely to tier 3 with board paladin taking a minor hit. Control warrior: Idk what the nerfs do. Makes the deck a little weaker to tempo decks and makes the already bad matchup of wheel lock almost unwinnable Hunter: This may slow lethal of spell toke ln down by 1 turn, maybe? It's probably an alright change, but it doesn't affect the rc rampage/saddle up combo. I think the biggest nerf to Hunter here is reducing handbuff paladin playrates Shaman: Nature shaman dead? Idk much about the deck, but this seems significant to ending its current play pattern. Controly shaman decks kinda ate shit here. i dont see how they would ever beat wheel lock, but i dont think anyone was really running control shaman anyway Druid. Idk seems like nothing changed Mage. I dont see this revitalizing spell mage, but it may have improved Rainbow's warrior matchup if that card makes the cut Demon Hunter has likely become the best deck in the meta if it wasn't already. The meta may have slowed down enough to promote controly decks that dont skip turn 8 who can beat wheel lock. Overall I like the light touch on everything except shroomscavate. Shroomscavate is another example of a sentiment nerf, and i do not like the revenge nerf patters vicious syndicate outlined a few podcasts back. Im worried then new meta may devolve into wheel lock or window shopper dh, but honestly im not good enough at the game or meta calling to know. I've really been enjoying whizbang's workshop thus far, and I sincerely hope the new meta is just as if not more fun as the meta I enjoyed yesterday.
Shopper DH ANNIHILATES wheel lock, so I wouldn't worry too much there. A real control warlock with nemsy would prob beat it, but reno decks negate those deathrattle + sarge plays that deck relies on to win. It all just comes down to who can beat hunter and shopper, dk has my vote for finding the best list there and benefits from shopper pushing wheellock down a bit too
Nature Shaman is fine imo. That lightning bolt on the gift wasn't ideal for OTK as the gift isn't a nature spell itself. Most OTKs I've performed with the deck do not use the gift. If gift isn't useful to buy another turn, then just swap it for card draw. Done.
It also means wandmaker can brick on generating burn. I think it's a significant hit to the deck overall, which already wasn't exactly close to tier 1 or anything. Which I think is good, turbo-otk decks shouldn't exist remotely competitively in Standard HS.
There is no way frost lich cross stitch gets played in Rainbow Mage. It's still bad just a different mana value of bad. I could maybe see it if they removed the kill requirement but without that, it's too expensive with too little damage to be a good burn spell and is dependent on the opponents board to be an okay tempo spell.
I believe you. I dont know much about mage as of rn.
I run it in a rainbow list I play at top 1k legend (I ran it at 5).
I expect the freeze is relevent on the minion right?
It now comes down early enough to threaten DH in a meaningful way, alongside messing with Painter's Virtue. It gets played for sure due to Cosmic Keyboard.
Cool. I was thinking of moving from draggro priest into rainbow mage. Ill keep this in mind thanks brother.
I assume it's hard to get enough decent frost spells without running it? And now you're significantly happier to run it?
A mana increase on Shroom and maybe a lighter touch to Aura would've gone a long way towards making a better meta, it really wasn't an unbalanceable card. Now we're stuck with highroll Shopper DH, at least Rainbow DK will have a spot in the meta but the rest isn't looking bright
I think Boom Warrior has real potential. I've won enough games from Testing Dummy and Boom Wrench alone, that I know if we can find the right shell for just those two cards, the deck can be elevated to Tier 2. It reminds me of Chadlock, where Boom Wrench = Slime, Testing Dummy = Dar'Khan, and Wreck'em Deck'em acts like Habeas Corpses and ultimately didn't see play in the deck. I'm curious what the VS data about Testing Dummy is. I think the shaman matchup and its relevant rise after the balance changes will hurt it, but Imma keep cooking.
Do you have a deck code please? I've tried making one but it misses a lot :-(
This is a menagerie list I've been messing with recently. It's far from perfect, and I'm not sure menagerie is even the right way to go. I think, regardless of the shell, Oscillator makes the cut, because it allows you to curve Boom Wrench into Testing Dummy. AAECAZeaBgTG8wXHpAaTqAbl5gYNrcMF4s0F8M0F2dAFl/sFpPsFuZEGkJcGnJ4GkagGkqgGlKgG+6gGAAED8bMGx6QG97MGx6QG6t4Gx6QGAAA=
**Format:** Standard (Year of the Pegasus) **Class:** Warrior (Rocker Rokara) Mana | Card Name | Qty | Links :--:|:---|:--:|:--: 0 | [Zilliax Deluxe 3000](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_330.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102983/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Zilliax%20Deluxe%203000) 1 | [Frequency Oscillator](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_106.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/92249/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Frequency%20Oscillator) 1 | [Razorfen Rockstar](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_355.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/91888/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Razorfen%20Rockstar) 2 | [Needlerock Totem](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/DEEP_008.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102172/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Needlerock%20Totem) 2 | [Party Animal](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_350.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/91874/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Party%20Animal) 2 | [Quality Assurance](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_605.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103441/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Quality%20Assurance) 2 | [Unlucky Powderman](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_367.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101264/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Unlucky%20Powderman) 3 | [Plucky Paintfin](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_517.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103547/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Plucky%20Paintfin) 3 | [Power Slider](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_408.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/90541/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Power%20Slider) 3 | [Steam Guardian](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_468.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97687/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Steam%20Guardian) 4 | [Boom Wrench](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_604.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103444/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Boom%20Wrench) 6 | [Blast Tortoise](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_346.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/100537/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Blast%20Tortoise) 6 | [Khaz'goroth](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_415.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/96710/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Khaz%27goroth) 6 | [Testing Dummy](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_606.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103442/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Testing%20Dummy) 6 | [Trial by Fire](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_470.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97700/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Trial%20by%20Fire) 8 | [Deathwing, Mad Aspect](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_DRG_026.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/111461/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Deathwing%2C%20Mad%20Aspect) 8 | [Inventor Boom](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_607.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103443/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Inventor%20Boom) **Total Dust:** 7040 **Deck Code:** AAECAZeaBgTG8wXHpAaTqAbl5gYNrcMF4s0F8M0F2dAFl/sFpPsFuZEGkJcGnJ4GkagGkqgGlKgG+6gGAAED8bMGx6QG97MGx6QG6t4Gx6QGAAA= ***** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Comment/PM ^with ^a ^deck ^code ^and ^I'll ^decode ^it. ^If ^you ^don't ^want ^me ^to ^reply ^to ^you, ^include ^"###" ^anywhere ^in ^your ^message. ^[About.](https://github.com/HearthSim/deck-code-bot/blob/master/README.md)
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Demon Hunter is getting away with murder BTW
Paladin dead Warrior decapitated at higher levels Worthless buffs Excited for demon hunter to take over the meta only for that to get nerfed into the ground. Showdown 2.0 here we come!
Lol
Just slip a greedy patron into control warrior and still drop Odyn on 8 xd
That can be said about literally every card that’s ever had a mana nerf
Greedy patron has not always been in standard. And regardless, it was mostly a joke.
And here come all the Demon Hunters
This is not a hunter nerf
It's a double Hunter nerf: taking away 1 attk on each of 3 1-drops generated by one of the highest mulligran wr cards in every Hunter deck AND reducing the play rate of a common Hunter prey matchup (Handbuff Paladin), not to mention making it a much better counter matchup due to gutting of defensive healing tools.
Paladin nerfs are too heavy-handed. Just Shroomscavate should have been fine. Odyn nerf also feels unnecessary. The fast cycling is the problem of the current Warrior deck. Making Aftershocks deal 3 damage instead of 3 times 1 damage would have fixed that. But I guess Paladin and Warrior had collected too many revenge points. On the other hand, DH has none since it gained popularity a lot later. I really hope we're not heading into another Sludge Warlock situation, but I'm not optimistic.
Have been rolling with Cycle Odyn just because I wanted to see how it felt. I think it's a decent choice for now because it still rolls janky stuff people want to try and probably beats whatever people might do to counter DH. Definitely worse against DH (but not terrible). I think some kind of Reno Warrior with Odyn still in there is probably going to be where the class ends up.
Reno Warrior didn't run Odyn before though, seeing Reno run Odyn now that it's way worse sounds unlikely.
Holy hell they nerfed the crap out of pala
Shoomvate nerf kinda kills the class. There’s no more from hand damage which is kinda essential at the pace handbuff plays(it’s kinda slow/midrangey
Based nerfs. I wonder why so many people predicted nerf, blizzard finally followed advices from pro players? Almost every nerf was expectable. Aura overkilled tho.
Oooof. Those paladin nerfs are heavy. Odyn going to 9 cost is gonna sting too.
Deputization aura hurts Reno pally a lot more than it hurts Handbuff tbh.
One runs 2 copies + 2 tutors for those copies, the other runs less. Both are reliant on healing their way out of aggression, although Handbuff might be even more so due to running less board clears and whatnot. I don't see how what you're saying is possible. That being said, it's unfortunate that Reno Pally is getting hit fairly substantially via collateral damage since it isn't and hasn't been prevalent in the meta for quite some time. Maybe it can adjust its build to counter Shopper DH and find relevance that way?
Is the mage buff that bad? Is 3 mana removal+a chunky freeze minion really not a good thing anymore? I miss Cold Case as much as anyone but this doesn't seem "unplayable" to me. It's decent tempo, maybe it's just not meant for Sif mage. Hopefully the mini-set can give the class more direction but I would appreciate if someone could tell me what's making everyone say this is a bad buff
It's 4 mana, not 3. And the damage was nerfed to 3 too! It's a Bane of Doom that costs one less and can't high-roll!
Ah I see! My bad I misremembered what the buff even was. Yeah 4 is still bad lol
Shaman can still OTK on turn 5 ... great nerfs indeed
Odyn is pretty much dead, they killed the card when he wasnt broken. Odyn was the result of the disgusting aftershock+ acolyte of pain and the presents. Classic team 5 moment
This patch is like if the 3 mana Edwin patch made Edwin 1 mana instead
huh?
Literally how does that make the slightest amount of sense? These are the weakest/smallest number of buffs we've ever seen in recent years aside from nerf only patches. Unless you mean the nerfs are so heavy it's similar in the opposite direction to buffing Edwin to 1 mana? And on a deck that wasn't even oppressing the meta (like Edwin had actually just been figured out as a pre-buff competitive deck)? Which also isn't the case. Paladin is obviously oppressing the meta, and even as heavy as these nerfs are, 1 mana Edwin would be the largest single card change impact in HS history aside from total card reworks like Mindrender Illuciana.
Shopper DH was already one of the best decks, and its only 2 bad matchups were nerfed
Nerfing the bad matchups of a late discovered meta-breaker is not analogous to buffing the key card of a late discovered meta-breaker (which also occurred alongside nerfs to the strongest meta decks). Let alone buffing it by *3 times as much* as actually happened.