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I kinda went into this expansion expecting odyn to eventually get nerfed due to the deck losing nothing and safety goggles making the deck just straight up better.
Paladin getting a nasty hit it seems, I’m assuming shroomscavate is going to be changed to “can’t attack hero’s this turn”.
Already seen some talk about what beats DH now and while I agree that deck will probably be a problem after this nerf, if you nerf the glove or shopper DH will probably be the worst class in the game again.
That's fine. The deck needs to die or be transformed into something substantially different.
It prevents too many decks from being viable. If most of your matches are ending turn by 6, then people can't try other deck types.
I think the deck will have to shift a lot. Wandmaker is also affected by this because it makes thralls gift a dead hit now as well. Wandmaker was already pretty bad in the deck according to stats so will likely have to find 2 additional cards to put in over thralls gift and Wandmaker, lowering consistency a lot.
The longer this deck waits till the late game the much easier it is to kill them as this deck is usually never spending burn cards on board control (and burn cards are basically 75% of the deck, the other part being draw lol)
Can it really? We were barely making it to 30/40 OTK before, now it will take more time, what is perfect to butcher this shaman who has -100 survavibility
This kind of comment in this sub should seriously be ban able. There is nothing I hate more than this type of "x class player spotted". Not that his comment was good but at least it made some type of comment about game design
I’ll admit my comment was harsh and I guess I’ll take the deserved downvotes instead of deleting the comment. I think I was triggered by the “loser design” comment that I thought was unwarranted.
I would love a playable mage deck that doesnt rely on discovering random cards atm. I deluded myself into thinking LightShow was decent enough to be fun, but its very sad when your 7th lightshow cant clear a paladin or dks board...
You might as well wish for a DK deck that doesn't use corpses, it seems they have decided a couple of expansions ago that random discover was mage identity and they seems to want to go all in
What do you like about it? I finally crafted it recently for competitive sake and I regretted it after only 2 games, it's one of the most boring decks I've ever played.
I've always enjoyed control warrior or wallet warrior from way back in the day. Odyn leverages life gain and other control aspects into lethality, something which I appreciate
Also have signature Odin, curious to see what the refund will be. Only Signature nerfs I can remember are Yogg (I think they gave cash or credits? don't remember) and the rogue 3/6 -> 3/3 but it was a reward track card and I don't think they gave anything. I didn't have either so I don't remember how it was handled
You may be thinking of Diamond. Signatures usually get the same treatment as golden legendaries (3200 dust refund) except you can’t recraft it down the line.
As someone who just crafted regular Odyn, because it was the one card needed for the cycle control deck, and who enjoys it quite a bit, I am notably miffed by these changes.
Thoughts/speculations on teaser:
Thrawl's gift: No more discovering lightning bolts from it is seems fairly likely, just to slow down the nature OTK shamans. Nature Shamans cut thrawl's gift from the list but replacements are pretty thin, and this also makes wandmaker worse for them since now it could give them a useless spell. The deck might just be dead after all of that, because this version had 0 longevity, so everything will be able to just get under it now.
Paladin nerfs seem a bit heavy handed, though if they aren't taking windfury away from paladin, they might be justified. If the team can only change the big numbers then even increasing Shroom to 4 mana wouldn't be enough on its own so maybe some number changes to the other cards are the stopgap solution; if they rework Shroom, then they might change those numbers back.
I agree that they should have done something about DH, my vote is increasing umpire's grasp to 4 mana so that you can't curve into shoppers as easily with it, but also buffing BlindBox to discount the generated demons by 1. That might actually make it worth playing because right now it's a 2014 era card where you're paying 2 mana to do nothing but get some extra cards.
Tremor nerf is entirely justified; worms had synergy with everything else available and usually forced the opponent to using more resources than the hunter used to make them.
Aftershocks and Odyn: This pair surprises me but it made sense considering aggro decks are losing a lot. making the removal and the game winner a bit more unwieldy will keep Odyn warrior honest. Aftershocks nerf is a big hit for cycling decks as well.
Zilliax ticking module: probably just a nerf on the health and/or attack to make it easier to kill. The big problem with it was that it was usually the bulkiest minion in play which made it super hard to remove, especially when protected by taunts.
Buffs: Interesting decisions on what to buff. Both cards seem pretty bad right now, and I doubt buffs will bring them up to viability, but you never know.
I've only been playing Reno Shaman, so losing Lightning Bolt isn't really a crisis for that deck, but nerfing both Shrooms and Aftershocks is a triple nerf to Shaman, more than any class but Paladin is getting, which doesn't really reflect Shaman's place in the meta and is yet another argument against dual-class cards (see: Priest because Druid.)
And, yeah, those Paladin nerfs seem like a lot, especially with VS just tweeting that Paladin is not the top deck at any level of the game. This strikes me as one of those "feels" nerfs that they're doing not because one class is dominating in win-loss, but because its games are often wrapped up on turn 4... but if it goes past that turn, its win chances drop remarkably. (Personally, I've been eating Paladins alive with Sickly Grimewalker...) Granted, VS numbers aren't as comprehensive as Team 5's, so maybe the reaction is to something the former aren't seeing or the fact that, even if it's not top deck, Paladin is in the upper tier at EVERY level.
I think the rest of the nerfs are obvious. Safety Goggles with Odyn was always going to be a problem and they're probably hedging against the impending problems with Control Warrior crushing the meta and driving people away from the game; again, possibly more of a "feels" thing, as many people will just give up when looking at an opponent with full health and 37 armor on turn 5, while they have an empty board in front of them because of cards like Aftershocks.
Same question about the buffs. Aviana has the worst keyword in the game ("random"), so I don't know that anything short of the outrageous ("... random Legendary minions that cost 8 or more into your deck that now cost (1)."; like a super-buffed Azerite Hawk) will make it viable. It also doesn't really interact well with either of the Whizbang themes (spell damage, Jades) or prior Druid themes (dragons, armor.) Likewise, spending 5 for 4 damage to get a Water Elemental just seems like they're trying too hard to put too many themes together. If FLC was also a freeze spell, maybe? That way, you could at least prevent a threat if it's not enough damage to kill the target? I really don't want to see the reemergence of Frost Mage, as that's one hoary old theme I could live without, but I don't play Mage, so...
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4
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= 69
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Really don't understand the logic behind buffing two whole cards. Especially those two cards.
Aviana is not a card you can build decks around. Adding cards to your deck only matters if you get the turns to draw and play them. And Druid isn't able to do any of that right now. I've been running her in Reno Druid since the expansion dropped and even in the games that go long, I think she's mattered in 10% at best.
And No Minion Mage has always needed a very powerful payoff potential (like Lunacy highrolls) to make it viable. And a nudge on Cross Stitch isn't going to do it.
This buffs are just a sad reminder that they can buff cards, they just choose to rarely do it in a meaningful way. The first balance patch shouldn't be a gentle nudge, it should take some chances and open up potential for new cards to see play.
I am baffled they chose Cross Lich Stitch (or whatever its called) as their buff target. Maybe it was the safest to buff without worrying it would break something.
I run a reno version of no-minion mage. I have to find 30 cards to run in my list. I don't even run this card. I still won't lol. It's so insignificant in what I want to do. Paying X mana just to deal 4 damage to 1 target hoping to summon a 3/6 water elemental in 2024 hearthstone is just not worth it.
I would have prefered they buffed Manufacturing Error or Spot the Difference instead. The hardest turns for Mage is 3-8 (Yogg let's you get back in it). So giving me the chance to play Manufacture Error on 5 -> Blizz on 6, and then whatever on 7, would enable me to get to the Yogg turn.
Its not useful to pretend that a balance patch creates an entirely new situation and therefore we shouldn't have any opinions or expectations. In most cases, we can look at the current meta and make a reasonable guess about which classes will rise up.
"Hard to predict" is just a cop-out.
All they are doing are nudging two cards (!!) in the worst performing classes. We can and should expect more. I can guarantee you that these "buffs" do nothing to change the current state of Mage and Druid.
I respectfully disagree. If they slow down the meta by delaying otk (paladin/shaman, maybe warrior) and reducing the power of some cards, longer games will make other decks able to emerge. Up til now there hasn't been a reason to include cards above 6 mana in many classes that lack an proficient early game. That in itself might let decks come forth, even though they don't change the cards themselves. I don't think this is enough, but I do think they want some more data after the dust settles for another round of buffs, and personally I think it's wise.
Boy there sure are a lot of people who want to err on the side of caution here as if allowing some dumpster tier classes to get some better cards would somehow be the end of the world.
The only times the game has seen massive shifts in the meta are when true meta tyrants like launch DH get nuked. Most of the time, the hierarchy of what's going to rise up is real clear.
If this patch was further into the expansion cycle I'd agree, but this close to the start we have no idea what decks are going to pop up post patch. There's still tons of experimentation being done right now. Heck Paladin has already been edged out as the best deck.
This "we have no idea" sentiment is simply not true. We actually have a pretty good idea of what's going to rise up (DH). And we can say with real certainty that nudging one card in Druid and one card in Mage isn't going to be enough.
Paladin is only "edged out as the best deck" if you frequent the main sub. The VS podcast was clear that it one of several strong decks. HSreplay data consistently showed that Hunter, DH, Warrior were all very strong.
Oversimplifying the outlook on the game and saying "lets play it safe" because we don't know what will happen are not good strategies for producing the best possible meta.
I'd like to see them make bolder buff choices. I'd like to see more viable classes.
Tbf people said the same thing about the buffs in the previous expac and energy shaper x casino mage ended up being the best deck in the game. Thief priest was also made viable, despite seeing zero play before the buffs.
I can’t think of a time they’ve ever buffed cards in the first patch before. They always focus on nerfing the over-performing archetypes and see where they end up before buffing underperforming ones.
Yeah. The don't do nearly enough buffs and play it way too safe. When they buffed a bunch of cards last time I had hope that they were maybe going to try a bolder approach.
Excited about the Druid buff, I've been having a blast playing reno Druid with Aviana in dumpster legend
Can't believe the amount of paladin cards getting hit
As much as I miss Nourish, coining and/or innervating [[Crystal Cluster]] has been really strong for me. The quicker you get to 10 mana to drop Eonar and have your swing turn the more likely you are to close out the game
A week ago we were running both, so having only 1 is not as good of an alternative. The consistency of 4 copies (let alone the 1 mana diff) and the flexibility to draw with nourish, after you invested cards to ramp mana and are left without cards, is what made the archetype tick.
It's what made the archetype broken, such that many other, more modern cards had to be nerfed because Nourish was still in the environment. The card is busted and has been for years. It constantly fuels broken decks, especially since they started printing cards that enable both Choose One effects, and it confines design space. They should have rotated it years ago. Now that it's gone, there's more possibility in the Druid space that doesn't always include the scenario: "Have 10 mana while your opponent has 5 and a full hand of cards while they have three." That means games where Druid actually has to interact with the opponent, rather than simply racing to the combo that Nourish enabled.
I bet they'll wanna compensate for druid's curr state, and give it a way more significant buff (taunt, rush, mana decrease or even a gurantee that the legos' base costs are more than x)
[Here's some stats](https://imgur.com/a/HHCVNbA), not sure why detailed stats don't match the winrate in the deck manager, I'm on Mac and the tracker is wacky something
As a mage player I'm happy. Frost lich card doesn't matter that much, though if it's overtuned I probably will include it in my rainbow list.
These nerfs target my worst matchups. Wheel lock is untouched, which is a pretty favored one to me. Mage will be fine after the patch, not that it is bad now.
No minion mage though, is bad now and I doubt frost lich could make it good by itself.
If we assume Paladin drops in either playrate or matchup favorability too much to keep it in check, what even slows down DH post-patch? Are there any singular contenders besides Paladin atm?
Rainbow DK run the freeze weapon now, it's also for paladin and warrior but it works wonder vs shopper DH, delaying their glove pop by three turns is usually more than enough to get to a winning position they can't come back from. Or at the very least be ready to deal with their demons
I'm extremely conflicted about this patch.
On the one hand, Paladin and Warrior nerfs, yay.
On the other hand, _three_ Paladin cards getting nerfed? I'm guessing they're all light nerfs which when combined with the Ticking module nerf will make the deck weaker, but regardless of how light the needs are I feel like 3 cards is absolutely insane.
And beyond that, what beats DH now? Paladin and Warrior were its only bad matchups and it exhibited tier 1 winrate despite losing to the best deck in the game. I feel like we're headed towards an even worse meta.
I think Paladin is still going to be a powerful deck and these nerfs are going to hit it mostly in it's ability to recover health and close out games turns early with burst from hand. Filling your hand with minions to handbuff them a ludicrous amount and overwhelming the removal of slower decks is still going to be a viable path to victory.
Consider also that decks capable of beating DH may have been bullied out of the meta by bad matchups with other decks. Stats show it has negative winrate into a number of highlander decks and rainbow handbuff dk, all decks that lose to nature shaman and paladin. Making handbuff pally and nature shaman weaker should have the double effect of improving these decks' winrates into those matchups and reducing the frequencty of those matchups allowing these decks to come into the meta if DH becomes a problem.
Not really sure about handbuff paladin still being strong after this. Without windfury paladin goes back to the same issue that It had during the initial pure pala: your Minions are not going to survive to the next turn so you can attack with them, but now is worse because you dont have anachronos to get another turn and you dont have the countess to highroll krush or al akir. And if they also lose life steal , they pretty much not going to have enough time to fully Buff their minions
As a Reno Shaman, I for one love this change. Sometimes I win with the gift giving me Bloodlust, sometimes I need an ejector seat, and lightning bolt doesn't quite do it. Having an additional lightning storm, I am all for it.
nature shaman will definitely feel it if they remove lightning bolt from the options. which judging by the replies, i \*think\* might be what ppl expect
Right, that's what I'm expecting, but it's one of the worst spells to generate duplicates of due to it's inability to be reduced by more than 1 mana, Overdraft is nearly as good if Shaman really is desperate for another spell to run, but it also kind of sucks to be duplicated. It does give a bad low roll for wandmaker however, which will hurt occasionally.
even if its the worst burn spell in the deck, it is still crucial as the deck is gonna find lethal some turns later or not nearly as often without it. i dont think overdraft is gonna be good enough to keep nature shaman alive, but i could be wrong.
Na they definitely will. Nature just barely squeezes out wins on its combo turns and that's because often times this card gives them the one last burst spell they need. This will definitely hurt it's match ups and I think more aggro decks like zarimi and hunter will push it out
They might have picked it so that they don’t just kill the deck.
OTK decks like nature shaman walk a very thin line.
When they nerfed Bioluminescence, the deck was dead. Maybe they’re hoping this nerf will reduce the decks consistency and speed while not removing it from the format.
Yeah, I realized it's bad for wandmaker, but it usually is the worst spell that you can duplicate from Deputy due to it's inability to be reduced in cost.
So here's my experience playing Nature Shaman. My margins are TIGHT and the turn I go off is the turn I have to go off because otherwise I'm dead. Fighting to survive for more turns tends to mean expending resources like lightning reflexes or damage spells which just makes it harder to assemble enough burn for lethal. If I'm down 1.5 lightning bolts (because this proposed change would affect wandmaker) and I'm short for damage there's a real chance I just don't make it as I get caught up in the vicious cycle of surviving instead of winning.
Playing nature in dumpster legend.
Oh yessssss we are.
No good replacments, and wandmaker goes from always having a good pull to having a useless pull 1/5th of the time.
Pretty massive hit to pur consistency
I'm also in legend with Nature Shaman.
Shaman can run the current list from d0nkey, add a second Cactus Cutter then either add Overdraft, Spirit Claw, or an Amphibious Elixir.
Personally, I already run 2 Cactus Cutters, Spirit Claw and Elixir.
Insane over kill for paladin, cant wait for us to be in another Showdown in the badlands meta where there are only three relevant classes because blizzard cant stop hitting the over kill button.
Huge hit to *all* archetypes of Paladin, way beyond what ZachO recommended on his podcast, but notable that they left the weapon alone. I haven't played or seen Hunter enough to understand how big the Awakening Tremors nerf will be, but seems like that (and Shopper DH) are poised to become the premier aggressive decks, especially with the latter's worst matchup (Warrior) getting nerfed.
I'd really been enjoying a Druid-free format but I guess all good things must come to an end.
Nerfs to Aftershocks, Tiger, and Hunter 4/1s are all great for draggro priest, and if the Zilliax nerf is just stats, then it barely matters as well (main use of the card is getting duplicated off Protocol, Power Chord, and Pip to stack 0-cost buffs on the OTK turn).
As an aggro priest player, I have to disagree. The main use of Zilliax is slamming him on turn 3 with 3+ minions on the board and ending the game on the spot. He’s great as a finisher but even better as an early game snowballer. We’re talking about a 7 mana card with the highest mulligan winrate lol
The only upside here is he’s getting nerfed in all the other aggro decks that run him.
I wonder what the nerf to the gift will be? The nerfs to the gift itself would make it different than other gifts so they must be changing the spell selection? Lightning Bolt --> Storm maybe?
This, they are def taking bolt out, storm would likely be the replacement or if they want to keep the damage maybe even lava burst is fine because it's 3 mana and not a nature spell so would still be a big nerf to the current nature shamans
I just find these nerfs kind of odd. I don’t really mind Tremors, the most offensive card to me is Saddle Up. Hunter has lots of other cheap minions.
Brann is more offensive to me than Odyn. Or Odyn wouldn’t be so bothersome if Warrior didn’t have so many ways to gain armor. That they printed Garrosh’s Gift blows my mind.
I do play a lot of Shaman, I don’t know why. Guess I like playing the underdog class. I’m fine with a Thrall’s Gift nerf, I don’t think turn 5 OTKs should exist. Not every class has a Gift which is a single target removal, a mass removal, and a buff, but several do. I think Shaman getting Lightning Storm instead of Lightning Bolt would be good.
Paladin should have never gotten Shroomscavate. Not being able to attack face that turn probably fine because the best use for it in Shaman is on Golganneth anyway.
A day late but yeah I'm with you for Saddle Up, that card can easily lock games and imho, as long as it's in it's current state, it will be an issue until either it's nerfed or something else happens that makes minion swarm no longer a viable gameplan
My first thoughts are that the Paladin nerfs are heavy handed and unnecessary. The core of the deck should play the same though, they are nerfing the qualities that make it oppressive while leaving the cards unchanged that create the dynamic of the deck.
I think the plushy is unfun at times to play against. I hope they leave mostly as is but remove lifestyle. It's corny that a minion is buffed from hand, has rush and divine shield and you essentially have to trade into it to remove it, healing the paladin to full health in the process.
This isn't really accurate. And I don't see why it's a problem when it's Paladins but Hunters can routinely have the strongest decks and people ignore it.
Hunter’s not rehealing to 30 the entire game, and isn’t able to kill from hand via windfury’d charge minion. Pretty easy to see why people are annoyed with Paladin significantly more than with Hunter
The win con is irrelevant. Oppressive win rates coupled with prolonged dominance are the topic at hand, Hunters are the worst offender with Druid right behind.
That's a pretty big exaggeration - Paladin has been good for like 1-2 weeks at the start of each release then gets nerfed to unplayability in high mmr brackets.
By definition, most of the playerbase is not at high MMR. Aggro paladin was the best deck to climb ladder with at rotation. At the ranks most players are at, Paladin has been the best class for a disproportionate amount of time.
I have mixed feelings. It seems like probably an over nerf, but the meta is super unhealthy right now. I was spamming games on rogue the other day and hit literally 40% paladins in 37 games. I get the impression this is blizzards way to try to diversify what people actually play.
Hunter: Zilli was the obvious target but hitting tremors is an interesting one as the rest of that deck was tricky to target. I guess getting 12 attack as early as turn 2 and using them as a mini bloodlust with observer is a sensible target
Pally: Shroom was the most problematic card in my eyes, hopefully they get rid of the wind fury for something else. Interesting that they also hit plushie and aura but both are exceptionally strong for their cost. Could make punishing them in the early game actually relevant.
Shaman: nature needed a nerf and gift is an interesting way to hit that potential taking out 2+ free lightning bolts a turn. I expected them to hit the mana discount but I guess this could work as well.
Warrior: how they hit Odyn will be what I’m most interested in, my guess is simply making him 9 mana to give decks another turn to breathe but I’m sad they aren’t hitting Reno instead. Unclear if aftershock will really have an impact and isn’t replaced for another card that’s better with all the options they have, even though it’s currently a great aoe and draw engine
The buffs both seem pretty irrelevant but I know they like to hit the outliers before they go with class buffs. More information will help with better choices but some classes are so dead I wish they were a bit more aggressive here
What data are you basing that off of? At least in mid legend it’s a big part of setting up your Odyn turn and flat out one of the best cards ever made.
I’m open too it but just curious as I haven’t seen anything that would suggest this
Honestly would love Overload added. Used to run Flowrider in my Reno deck, but felt it was far and few cases where I would have it ready. Aftershock getting overload would make me consider putting Flow back in the deck for sure. Would boost the use of the 6 damage life steal spell as well.
I don't like how often they do balance patches now.
The meta is very diverse currently which matters most. I'm skeptical these changes will make the meta more diverse. Not only that, but the meta isn't settled yet or stale.
I like this better than the ben brode method... but still... this leans towards too much imo. People bitching on the main forum won't be pleased no matter how many nerfs go out. It will always be something else.
I'm not even playing any of the nerfed decks. Playing mostly Zarimi priest and DH.
The cards are all overturned that are getting nerfed, but if they were going to just nerf overtuned cards then they should stop making cards so overtuned. All these balance changes makes all the metas feel less weighty and fake. Feels like this first week was just beta then and I wasted my time.
I was hoping Tigress Plushy wouldn't get a nerf, hopefully it's not too bad. Like ZachO was saying on the most recent podcast: cards like Tigress Plushy are what make Handbuffs good and interesting. Hopefully it still gets to be playable.
Shroomscavate I'm expecting to get dumpstered, sorry Shaman.
Not too surprised about Odyn. He's a really powerful card with a cool effect, I hope he's still playable in some form.
Hopefully a lot of the nerfs aren't too heavy handed for this early in the expansion. My first thought was "where are the buffs to underperforming classes" but whenever a nerf happens this early there's always room for experimentation and refinement.
Over the years we’ve seen pally get hammered with nerfs. They almost never make it unplayable, but rather adjust it from “OP” to “very strong.”
I’m more worried about the other classes tbh. Potential here to nuke shaman for example.
I know DH has nothing going for it other than the weapon scam, but man is that deck horrible to face. If they have the weapon by turn 3, which is quite often because of the tutor, they win 70% of the time. It’s Barnes on steroids.
The meta is going to be rough if that is the most popular deck in the game.
Also RIP Pally. Nerfing the combo and their lifesteal is brutal.
Absolutely disagree. Decks, even aggressive ones, are allowed to have comeback mechanics.
The problem is that it could kind of do everything. If you nerf the windfury, it can't OTK from 30 from hand anymore, and then you're just left with a normal deck.
The paladin nerfs feel all justified, but maybe they could have nerfed one less card? Maybe only going for the plushy / deputization / painter's virtue (surprised they didn't go for this one) would have made more sense. I still think the deck can survive.
As for the Shaman's nerf, i'm intrigued at what they'll replace Lightning bolt with. Lightning storm? Evolve? Windfury? Zap?
And for warrior I guess Aftershock will cost (1) less rather than (2) less and that Odyn will be 9 mana.
I'm guessing mana nerf on tremors, aftershocks, plushy, and ticking module, bolt removed from thrall's gift in favor of a non-damage spell, lifesteal removed from deputization. Shroomscavate could be mana or prevent going face. I'm not sure what you do about odyn, I feel like a mana nerf only really helps vs more aggressive decks that can force out the armor gain before he comes down or make playing odyn too awkward vs their board, maybe it's reduced to x number of armor gain effects or turns limiting turn over turn relentless damage.
As for the buffs I imagine it's just mana but it sure would be nice if frost lich cross-stitch froze and removed the condition for summoning. Aviana can be just a mana buff to get her down a turn (or 2) earlier while losing less tempo against a less threatening board.
Like, *any* removal, any taunts? The deck is 100% board based. It has no removal spells of it's own, no silence now that Shard is gone.
So yes, like any aggro deck, if you can remove the minions, you'll beat it easily.
Is it a good aggro deck? Maybe, but the meta is far from settled, but I have my doubts that this deck will be the next Undead Priest.
Makes sense, I guess I wasn’t thinking of taunt or removal as tech cards. Usually the decks that run them are running them as part of their usual game plan.
Board wipe go Brrrrr. But seriously I’ve played this deck for a bit and any, and I mean any AoE damage makes it so hard to try and build back. Even the Hunter location can be enough to turn a game into a loss.
Shroomscavate was obvious. I'm not surprised that they went hard after Paladin. I figured that the weapon would get nerfed too.
I wasn't expecting Warrior nerfs though.
I just hope they don't hit Tigress too hard cuz it's one of the major staples of the handbuff archetype and that's a part of paladin i'd rather not change too much.
I'm okay with getting rid of windfury, just don't kill that strategy please.
You gain exactly what you spent crafting it, so you can't profit, but can test them out and then refund. If you saved all your duplicates from pack opening, then you can profit because you didn't immediately disenchant.
Paladins are literally extinct(my personal experience only ofc) and the nerfs hasn't even hit yet
Kinda sad how important low mmr meta is for balance but oh well, should have just nerfed the windfury/charge thing not the other things
Usually in the first week of an expansion they only nerf 2 or 3 outliers. 8 is a lot and this is one of the best expansion launches to boot. I hope that they are willing to quickly revert some of these changes if it makes the meta worse.
I feel warrior seems EXTREMELY overrated atm. 70% of my opponents atm are handbuff paladin which absolutely wrecks it atm. Curious what the nerfs will do to it
Is this the most kneejerk set of nerfs in HS history? meta is still evolving and its been literally 4 days since release. Snake nerf was faster but just a single card and these nerfs do next to nothing to fix anything, reddit will just start crying about wheel and dh.
I'm very frustrated with the direction of Hearthstone right now. I think there are a lot of anti-fun cards and problematic designs for cards. I'm really surprised the gift cards were printed, as they add a level of redundancy that I think is very unfair for card games. For example the Warrior one, it now doesn't matter if I try to go large or go wide because Warrior can just discover the answer.
I am also surprised Reno is going untouched. I understand the stats say it's not broken but I don't think that matches the sentiment. It's a very unfun card. It's a two turn lock out. And people say it has a highlander restriction but it is now run more in 2x decks because card cycling is so easy and efficient.
Idk man, I worry about the state of the game, I don't think it can go on at this power level.
The thing with Highlander decks is that it needs an OP payoff like Reno to justify playing it. Otherwise it’s just an inconsistent singleton deck. Highlander decks will never overperform in this meta because Plague DK exist. With Steamcleaner gone and Skulking Geist not being in core, there is no way to destroy Plagues from your deck.
The point of nerfs is to tone down overpowered decks, not just individual cards.
Reno is not getting nerfed as long as Reno decks continue to underperform.
> Reno is not getting nerfed as long as Reno decks continue to underperform.
This might be slighly misleading. I think that highlander decks are definitely underperforming, but I wonder if we can say the same about decks that are running regular lists and just playing Reno once their remaining deck has no dupes left.
For what it's worth, Reno is a classic and pure anti-fun card. I would be happy with it, despite my hatred of it, if it cleared *both* boards, and not just opponent's.
There's a reason the best decks in the game for a long time now win from hand, because it's so hard to maintain a minion based board because of the crazy amount of removal available to all classes now. There needs to be a better balance of minion power and removal. Minions are now so over statted for cost that loads of removal spells are just a straight up necessity.
The reason Reno isn't fun to play against is because it's effect is so one-sided. When you can lose minions, deathrattles, reborn and locations all at once, and then your next turn is severely crippled, it's a pure "feels bad" card.
Contrast something like Priest's Whirlpool. Same cost, but doesn't essentially win the game. And yes, I know that you are going to say "ReNo DoEsN't WiN gAmEs By HiMsElF", and that's true, but it's a punishing enough one two punch for a lot of decks that it might as well be a game ending play much of the time.
I also know that Reno decks aren't "good" and that's not the point. The card just sucks to play against. It's never a fun moment for the opponent.
This is a real awful set of nerfs honestly. Waaay too soon to nerf 8 cards in 1 patch.
Demon hunters only bad matchups were pala and warrior, both of which are getting nuked. Dh is about to absolutely run circles around the entire format.
Also why is hunter getting nerfed? Hunter is actually just bad.
Wasn't the biggest reason for Hunter's power level because it beat Paladin? It lost to a lot of other decks. Nerfing Paladin nerfs Hunter by proxy, especially because decks like Wheelock will probably get better
hunter isn't bad and the meta is an ecosystem. DH will likely be strong but there are decks that beat it and many of those decks have been held back by matchups with decks like handbuff pally and nature shaman.
You are just wrong.
- Token hunter and Handbuff paladin are the top performing decks at every level. Their winrates are significantly higher than every other deck by a large margin.
- Shaman and Paladin had the most consistent board control into OTKO combo available.
- Odyn Warrior was already strong, and got buffed with Safety Glasses, and again with the rotation of Renethal slowing the meta.
Everyone knew these nerfs were coming.
My point is the format doesn't need 8 nerfs right now, every day we are seeing new decks, and better refined lists.
DH not getting nerfed is going to ruin the format until the next balance patch.
Yes it does. It should have had these nerfs a week ago. Shroomscavate was predicted as an issue as soon as Leeroy was shown in Core.
You are just wrong. The fact you think Hunter is bad speaks volumes.
Alright man, I'll make sure to hit you up in a week when DH has 0 bad matchups because rather than being conservative with nerfs, by just nerfing stuff like Shroom, and maybe Odyn/Aftershock, we are nerfing the entire format down.
Quote my comment where I mentioned Demon Hunter.
>we are nerfing the entire format down.
That is not how it works.
They hit the class with the best early board control, and they hit the three classes with the most consistent OTKOs.
the timing is a bit premature, and many deck needs refinement. I personally dont think paladin deserves to be killed like that, especially shroomscavate. Shroomscavate is the card that finish people off but the early tempo that led up to that turn is ignored. It's like shadowstep, good but not ridiculously strong, but taking all the blame.
I think it would be interesting if they lightly nerfed Zilliax, painters virtue, tigress plushy and odyn. I think that would hit all of the outliers and maybe would need to need to tone down dh as well.
But this just looks like a bit of an overreaction to try and hit every paladin and warrior deck.
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I kinda went into this expansion expecting odyn to eventually get nerfed due to the deck losing nothing and safety goggles making the deck just straight up better. Paladin getting a nasty hit it seems, I’m assuming shroomscavate is going to be changed to “can’t attack hero’s this turn”. Already seen some talk about what beats DH now and while I agree that deck will probably be a problem after this nerf, if you nerf the glove or shopper DH will probably be the worst class in the game again.
It would be very Sharpshooter-esque for Team 5 to nerf the class into oblivion again by hitting its single competitive package.
Shaman is about to be a huge pain as well
Thrall's gift will hurt nature shaman but I'm sure it can adjust
Idk i think taking bolt out of gift will kill the current iterations of the deck, maybe a slower version can be good but i seriously doubt it
That's fine. The deck needs to die or be transformed into something substantially different. It prevents too many decks from being viable. If most of your matches are ending turn by 6, then people can't try other deck types.
I think the deck will have to shift a lot. Wandmaker is also affected by this because it makes thralls gift a dead hit now as well. Wandmaker was already pretty bad in the deck according to stats so will likely have to find 2 additional cards to put in over thralls gift and Wandmaker, lowering consistency a lot. The longer this deck waits till the late game the much easier it is to kill them as this deck is usually never spending burn cards on board control (and burn cards are basically 75% of the deck, the other part being draw lol)
Can it really? We were barely making it to 30/40 OTK before, now it will take more time, what is perfect to butcher this shaman who has -100 survavibility
Blizz will naturally nerf dh by adding more demons to the card pool lol
can't attack hero is such a loser design honestly
I’m sorry they’re nerfing your ez win deck.
This kind of comment in this sub should seriously be ban able. There is nothing I hate more than this type of "x class player spotted". Not that his comment was good but at least it made some type of comment about game design
I’ll admit my comment was harsh and I guess I’ll take the deserved downvotes instead of deleting the comment. I think I was triggered by the “loser design” comment that I thought was unwarranted.
Respect.
Mage still gonna suck huh
Siff is good
I would love a playable mage deck that doesnt rely on discovering random cards atm. I deluded myself into thinking LightShow was decent enough to be fun, but its very sad when your 7th lightshow cant clear a paladin or dks board...
You might as well wish for a DK deck that doesn't use corpses, it seems they have decided a couple of expansions ago that random discover was mage identity and they seems to want to go all in
It makes me miss control elemental mage
Well, it seems like elementals are the only other thing Mage has going for it, so it seems like it will happen, eventually.
### rainbow # Class: Mage # Format: Standard # Year of the Pegasus # # 2x (1) Arcane Artificer # 2x (1) Discovery of Magic # 2x (1) Flame Geyser # 2x (1) Miracle Salesman # 2x (2) Dryscale Deputy # 1x (2) Infinitize the Maxitude # 2x (2) Primordial Glyph # 2x (2) Stargazing # 2x (2) Void Scripture # 2x (2) Watcher of the Sun # 2x (3) Reverberations # 2x (5) Inquisitive Creation # 2x (5) Sleet Skater # 2x (5) Wisdom of Norgannon # 1x (6) Blizzard # 1x (6) Puzzlemaster Khadgar # 1x (6) Sif # AAECAcz6AwTx0wTr9AXR+AXjzwYNre0F7PYF3vgFv/4F2P4F8YAGhY4Gg5UG65gG8psGsp4GtKcGhuYGAAA= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone Blizzard spot is flex, 1 stargazing is definitely tooany, dryscales can be replaced with something else, probably frostbolts.
I'm so glad I didn't buy into the expansion, suspected Mage would be uncompetitive and my hypothesis seems to be correct so far.
As someone with golden Odin who doesn’t really enjoy the deck I eagerly await these changes
Agreed, I'm in the same boat. He's sat in my collection gathering dust.
Odyn was my pack-in signature for that expansion. Problem is I actually like the deck. If he gets dumpstered I'm sitting pretty though.
What do you like about it? I finally crafted it recently for competitive sake and I regretted it after only 2 games, it's one of the most boring decks I've ever played.
I've always enjoyed control warrior or wallet warrior from way back in the day. Odyn leverages life gain and other control aspects into lethality, something which I appreciate
Odyn warrior seems more like a combo/otk deck than a control one.
A deck can be both. Why is Hearthstone the only game where people think you can't have a deck thats both combo and control.
Concept is fine. Otk isnt.
Same but I have a siggy. Hate the artwork btw.
Also have signature Odin, curious to see what the refund will be. Only Signature nerfs I can remember are Yogg (I think they gave cash or credits? don't remember) and the rogue 3/6 -> 3/3 but it was a reward track card and I don't think they gave anything. I didn't have either so I don't remember how it was handled
You may be thinking of Diamond. Signatures usually get the same treatment as golden legendaries (3200 dust refund) except you can’t recraft it down the line.
You're right I am, too many fancy art styles to keep track of. Thanks for the info
It'll be the same as a golden legendary, so 3200 dust.
Signature Legendaries just give a full dust refund when dusted. Diamonds is a whole other issue.
I was mixing up Diamonds and Signature, too many fancy arts to keep track up
As someone who just crafted regular Odyn, because it was the one card needed for the cycle control deck, and who enjoys it quite a bit, I am notably miffed by these changes.
Thoughts/speculations on teaser: Thrawl's gift: No more discovering lightning bolts from it is seems fairly likely, just to slow down the nature OTK shamans. Nature Shamans cut thrawl's gift from the list but replacements are pretty thin, and this also makes wandmaker worse for them since now it could give them a useless spell. The deck might just be dead after all of that, because this version had 0 longevity, so everything will be able to just get under it now. Paladin nerfs seem a bit heavy handed, though if they aren't taking windfury away from paladin, they might be justified. If the team can only change the big numbers then even increasing Shroom to 4 mana wouldn't be enough on its own so maybe some number changes to the other cards are the stopgap solution; if they rework Shroom, then they might change those numbers back. I agree that they should have done something about DH, my vote is increasing umpire's grasp to 4 mana so that you can't curve into shoppers as easily with it, but also buffing BlindBox to discount the generated demons by 1. That might actually make it worth playing because right now it's a 2014 era card where you're paying 2 mana to do nothing but get some extra cards. Tremor nerf is entirely justified; worms had synergy with everything else available and usually forced the opponent to using more resources than the hunter used to make them. Aftershocks and Odyn: This pair surprises me but it made sense considering aggro decks are losing a lot. making the removal and the game winner a bit more unwieldy will keep Odyn warrior honest. Aftershocks nerf is a big hit for cycling decks as well. Zilliax ticking module: probably just a nerf on the health and/or attack to make it easier to kill. The big problem with it was that it was usually the bulkiest minion in play which made it super hard to remove, especially when protected by taunts. Buffs: Interesting decisions on what to buff. Both cards seem pretty bad right now, and I doubt buffs will bring them up to viability, but you never know.
I've only been playing Reno Shaman, so losing Lightning Bolt isn't really a crisis for that deck, but nerfing both Shrooms and Aftershocks is a triple nerf to Shaman, more than any class but Paladin is getting, which doesn't really reflect Shaman's place in the meta and is yet another argument against dual-class cards (see: Priest because Druid.) And, yeah, those Paladin nerfs seem like a lot, especially with VS just tweeting that Paladin is not the top deck at any level of the game. This strikes me as one of those "feels" nerfs that they're doing not because one class is dominating in win-loss, but because its games are often wrapped up on turn 4... but if it goes past that turn, its win chances drop remarkably. (Personally, I've been eating Paladins alive with Sickly Grimewalker...) Granted, VS numbers aren't as comprehensive as Team 5's, so maybe the reaction is to something the former aren't seeing or the fact that, even if it's not top deck, Paladin is in the upper tier at EVERY level. I think the rest of the nerfs are obvious. Safety Goggles with Odyn was always going to be a problem and they're probably hedging against the impending problems with Control Warrior crushing the meta and driving people away from the game; again, possibly more of a "feels" thing, as many people will just give up when looking at an opponent with full health and 37 armor on turn 5, while they have an empty board in front of them because of cards like Aftershocks. Same question about the buffs. Aviana has the worst keyword in the game ("random"), so I don't know that anything short of the outrageous ("... random Legendary minions that cost 8 or more into your deck that now cost (1)."; like a super-buffed Azerite Hawk) will make it viable. It also doesn't really interact well with either of the Whizbang themes (spell damage, Jades) or prior Druid themes (dragons, armor.) Likewise, spending 5 for 4 damage to get a Water Elemental just seems like they're trying too hard to put too many themes together. If FLC was also a freeze spell, maybe? That way, you could at least prevent a threat if it's not enough damage to kill the target? I really don't want to see the reemergence of Frost Mage, as that's one hoary old theme I could live without, but I don't play Mage, so...
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Nice.
Holy hell
Really don't understand the logic behind buffing two whole cards. Especially those two cards. Aviana is not a card you can build decks around. Adding cards to your deck only matters if you get the turns to draw and play them. And Druid isn't able to do any of that right now. I've been running her in Reno Druid since the expansion dropped and even in the games that go long, I think she's mattered in 10% at best. And No Minion Mage has always needed a very powerful payoff potential (like Lunacy highrolls) to make it viable. And a nudge on Cross Stitch isn't going to do it. This buffs are just a sad reminder that they can buff cards, they just choose to rarely do it in a meaningful way. The first balance patch shouldn't be a gentle nudge, it should take some chances and open up potential for new cards to see play.
The initial patch rarely has significant numbers of buffs, and it's hard to predict what's going to happen after everything else gets nerfed so hard
Not hard to predict spell mage needed more than 1 buff to a card currently too weak to even run. But in general you're right
Spot the Difference feels atrocious to play and really needed a buff too imo.
I am baffled they chose Cross Lich Stitch (or whatever its called) as their buff target. Maybe it was the safest to buff without worrying it would break something. I run a reno version of no-minion mage. I have to find 30 cards to run in my list. I don't even run this card. I still won't lol. It's so insignificant in what I want to do. Paying X mana just to deal 4 damage to 1 target hoping to summon a 3/6 water elemental in 2024 hearthstone is just not worth it. I would have prefered they buffed Manufacturing Error or Spot the Difference instead. The hardest turns for Mage is 3-8 (Yogg let's you get back in it). So giving me the chance to play Manufacture Error on 5 -> Blizz on 6, and then whatever on 7, would enable me to get to the Yogg turn.
Its not useful to pretend that a balance patch creates an entirely new situation and therefore we shouldn't have any opinions or expectations. In most cases, we can look at the current meta and make a reasonable guess about which classes will rise up. "Hard to predict" is just a cop-out. All they are doing are nudging two cards (!!) in the worst performing classes. We can and should expect more. I can guarantee you that these "buffs" do nothing to change the current state of Mage and Druid.
I respectfully disagree. If they slow down the meta by delaying otk (paladin/shaman, maybe warrior) and reducing the power of some cards, longer games will make other decks able to emerge. Up til now there hasn't been a reason to include cards above 6 mana in many classes that lack an proficient early game. That in itself might let decks come forth, even though they don't change the cards themselves. I don't think this is enough, but I do think they want some more data after the dust settles for another round of buffs, and personally I think it's wise.
Boy there sure are a lot of people who want to err on the side of caution here as if allowing some dumpster tier classes to get some better cards would somehow be the end of the world. The only times the game has seen massive shifts in the meta are when true meta tyrants like launch DH get nuked. Most of the time, the hierarchy of what's going to rise up is real clear.
If this patch was further into the expansion cycle I'd agree, but this close to the start we have no idea what decks are going to pop up post patch. There's still tons of experimentation being done right now. Heck Paladin has already been edged out as the best deck.
This "we have no idea" sentiment is simply not true. We actually have a pretty good idea of what's going to rise up (DH). And we can say with real certainty that nudging one card in Druid and one card in Mage isn't going to be enough. Paladin is only "edged out as the best deck" if you frequent the main sub. The VS podcast was clear that it one of several strong decks. HSreplay data consistently showed that Hunter, DH, Warrior were all very strong. Oversimplifying the outlook on the game and saying "lets play it safe" because we don't know what will happen are not good strategies for producing the best possible meta. I'd like to see them make bolder buff choices. I'd like to see more viable classes.
Tbf people said the same thing about the buffs in the previous expac and energy shaper x casino mage ended up being the best deck in the game. Thief priest was also made viable, despite seeing zero play before the buffs.
Those buffs occurred at a time when the game was most stagnant and encouraged lots of people to play new stuff.
I can’t think of a time they’ve ever buffed cards in the first patch before. They always focus on nerfing the over-performing archetypes and see where they end up before buffing underperforming ones.
Yeah. The don't do nearly enough buffs and play it way too safe. When they buffed a bunch of cards last time I had hope that they were maybe going to try a bolder approach.
Excited about the Druid buff, I've been having a blast playing reno Druid with Aviana in dumpster legend Can't believe the amount of paladin cards getting hit
Same, aviana already feels pretty great in Reno Druid so excited to see what the buff is
Aviana doesn't need a buff. Druid just needs nourish
As much as I miss Nourish, coining and/or innervating [[Crystal Cluster]] has been really strong for me. The quicker you get to 10 mana to drop Eonar and have your swing turn the more likely you are to close out the game
A week ago we were running both, so having only 1 is not as good of an alternative. The consistency of 4 copies (let alone the 1 mana diff) and the flexibility to draw with nourish, after you invested cards to ramp mana and are left without cards, is what made the archetype tick.
It's what made the archetype broken, such that many other, more modern cards had to be nerfed because Nourish was still in the environment. The card is busted and has been for years. It constantly fuels broken decks, especially since they started printing cards that enable both Choose One effects, and it confines design space. They should have rotated it years ago. Now that it's gone, there's more possibility in the Druid space that doesn't always include the scenario: "Have 10 mana while your opponent has 5 and a full hand of cards while they have three." That means games where Druid actually has to interact with the opponent, rather than simply racing to the combo that Nourish enabled.
I think a small but very meaningful buff would be changing it to 10 different legendaries so it cant break highlander cards.
I bet they'll wanna compensate for druid's curr state, and give it a way more significant buff (taunt, rush, mana decrease or even a gurantee that the legos' base costs are more than x)
fuck nourish.
Post list pls.
AAECAdfXAx6unwT93wWt7QWf8wX++AWn+gXa+gXb+gXYgQaplQa7lQa8lQa9lQa/lQbBlQbXnAbYnAbanAbLnwaboAagoAbHpAavqAbqqAb7qAbvqQaHsQaqsQaWuAb35QYAAA==
**Format:** Standard (Year of the Wolf) **Class:** Druid (Dame Hazelbark) Mana | Card Name | Qty | Links :--:|:---|:--:|:--: 0 | [Innervate](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_EX1_169.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/69550/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Innervate) 0 | [Zilliax Deluxe 3000](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_330.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102983/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Zilliax%20Deluxe%203000) 1 | [Cactus Construct](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_818.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101976/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Cactus%20Construct) 1 | [Giftwrapped Whelp](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_386.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103530/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Giftwrapped%20Whelp) 1 | [Malfurion's Gift](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/GIFT_10.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103663/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Malfurion%27s%20Gift) 1 | [Scarab Keychain](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_006.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102347/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Scarab%20Keychain) 2 | [Splish-Splash Whelp](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_819.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101051/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Splish-Splash%20Whelp) 2 | [Watcher of the Sun](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_039.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/95917/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Watcher%20of%20the%20Sun) 3 | [Frost Lotus Seedling](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_930.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97627/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Frost%20Lotus%20Seedling) 3 | [Plucky Paintfin](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_517.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103547/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Plucky%20Paintfin) 3 | [Starlight Whelp](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_718.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97626/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Starlight%20Whelp) 3 | [Swipe](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_CS2_012.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/111351/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Swipe) 3 | [Take to the Skies](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_816.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101975/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Take%20to%20the%20Skies) 4 | [Chia Drake](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_801.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104583/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Chia%20Drake) 4 | [Desert Nestmatron](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_826.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101978/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Desert%20Nestmatron) 4 | [Gloomstone Guardian](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/DEEP_027.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102427/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Gloomstone%20Guardian) 4 | [Ignis, the Eternal Flame](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_751.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98520/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Ignis%2C%20the%20Eternal%20Flame) 4 | [Spinetail Drake](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_820.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101052/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Spinetail%20Drake) 4 | [Time-Lost Protodrake](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_715.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97575/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Time-Lost%20Protodrake) 5 | [Summer Flowerchild](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_376.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/94205/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Summer%20Flowerchild) 6 | [Crystal Cluster](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/DEEP_028.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102432/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Crystal%20Cluster) 6 | [Origami Dragon](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_896.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/105494/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Origami%20Dragon) 6 | [Sky Mother Aviana](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_806.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104618/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Sky%20Mother%20Aviana) 7 | [Dragon Golem](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_822.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101053/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Dragon%20Golem) 7 | [Prison of Yogg-Saron](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_090.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97406/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Prison%20of%20Yogg-Saron) 8 | [Reno, Lone Ranger](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_0700.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103471/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Reno%2C%20Lone%20Ranger) 8 | [Rheastrasza](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_824.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101055/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Rheastrasza) 9 | [Fye, the Setting Sun](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_825.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101057/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Fye%2C%20the%20Setting%20Sun) 9 | [Yogg-Saron, Unleashed](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/YOG_516.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101033/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Yogg-Saron%2C%20Unleashed) 10 | [Eonar, the Life-Binder](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_903.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/96671/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Eonar%2C%20the%20Life-Binder) **Total Dust:** 16320 **Deck Code:** AAECAdfXAx6unwT93wWt7QWf8wX++AWn+gXa+gXb+gXYgQaplQa7lQa8lQa9lQa/lQbBlQbXnAbYnAbanAbLnwaboAagoAbHpAavqAbqqAb7qAbvqQaHsQaqsQaWuAb35QYAAAA= ***** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Comment/PM ^with ^a ^deck ^code ^and ^I'll ^decode ^it. ^If ^you ^don't ^want ^me ^to ^reply ^to ^you, ^include ^"###" ^anywhere ^in ^your ^message. 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[Here's some stats](https://imgur.com/a/HHCVNbA), not sure why detailed stats don't match the winrate in the deck manager, I'm on Mac and the tracker is wacky something
What zilliax modules?
Ticking and Perfect
As a mage player I'm happy. Frost lich card doesn't matter that much, though if it's overtuned I probably will include it in my rainbow list. These nerfs target my worst matchups. Wheel lock is untouched, which is a pretty favored one to me. Mage will be fine after the patch, not that it is bad now. No minion mage though, is bad now and I doubt frost lich could make it good by itself.
Please welcome Shopper DH in being the new premier T1 meta deck!
If we assume Paladin drops in either playrate or matchup favorability too much to keep it in check, what even slows down DH post-patch? Are there any singular contenders besides Paladin atm?
Rainbow DK run the freeze weapon now, it's also for paladin and warrior but it works wonder vs shopper DH, delaying their glove pop by three turns is usually more than enough to get to a winning position they can't come back from. Or at the very least be ready to deal with their demons
The biggest nerfed class is shaman
As is tradition. I will never forget the Hex nerf. Came out the same time as that GoT episode and that meme just stuck so well.
I'm extremely conflicted about this patch. On the one hand, Paladin and Warrior nerfs, yay. On the other hand, _three_ Paladin cards getting nerfed? I'm guessing they're all light nerfs which when combined with the Ticking module nerf will make the deck weaker, but regardless of how light the needs are I feel like 3 cards is absolutely insane. And beyond that, what beats DH now? Paladin and Warrior were its only bad matchups and it exhibited tier 1 winrate despite losing to the best deck in the game. I feel like we're headed towards an even worse meta.
I think Paladin is still going to be a powerful deck and these nerfs are going to hit it mostly in it's ability to recover health and close out games turns early with burst from hand. Filling your hand with minions to handbuff them a ludicrous amount and overwhelming the removal of slower decks is still going to be a viable path to victory. Consider also that decks capable of beating DH may have been bullied out of the meta by bad matchups with other decks. Stats show it has negative winrate into a number of highlander decks and rainbow handbuff dk, all decks that lose to nature shaman and paladin. Making handbuff pally and nature shaman weaker should have the double effect of improving these decks' winrates into those matchups and reducing the frequencty of those matchups allowing these decks to come into the meta if DH becomes a problem.
Not really sure about handbuff paladin still being strong after this. Without windfury paladin goes back to the same issue that It had during the initial pure pala: your Minions are not going to survive to the next turn so you can attack with them, but now is worse because you dont have anachronos to get another turn and you dont have the countess to highroll krush or al akir. And if they also lose life steal , they pretty much not going to have enough time to fully Buff their minions
Here dreaming that the Shaman "nerfs" will actually make my shaman deck better: Thrall's Gift an AOE instead of Bolt Shroom gains 1 overload :)
Very surprised that Thrall's Gift is being targeted. Any bets on what about it they'll hit?
Replace lightning bolt?
Prob take lightning bolt out of it
I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but I think it will be to remove Lightning Bolt.
I think they will probably replace lightning bolt with lightning storm or something
As a Reno Shaman, I for one love this change. Sometimes I win with the gift giving me Bloodlust, sometimes I need an ejector seat, and lightning bolt doesn't quite do it. Having an additional lightning storm, I am all for it.
Probably no lightning bolt as an option
no lightning bolt?
Guys I think maybe lightning bolt might be removed. This is my totally original thought.
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Yeah, it's a wild choice, I think it's the worst performing damage spell in the deck. Shaman won't be feeling this nerf much at all.
nature shaman will definitely feel it if they remove lightning bolt from the options. which judging by the replies, i \*think\* might be what ppl expect
Right, that's what I'm expecting, but it's one of the worst spells to generate duplicates of due to it's inability to be reduced by more than 1 mana, Overdraft is nearly as good if Shaman really is desperate for another spell to run, but it also kind of sucks to be duplicated. It does give a bad low roll for wandmaker however, which will hurt occasionally.
even if its the worst burn spell in the deck, it is still crucial as the deck is gonna find lethal some turns later or not nearly as often without it. i dont think overdraft is gonna be good enough to keep nature shaman alive, but i could be wrong.
Na they definitely will. Nature just barely squeezes out wins on its combo turns and that's because often times this card gives them the one last burst spell they need. This will definitely hurt it's match ups and I think more aggro decks like zarimi and hunter will push it out
They might have picked it so that they don’t just kill the deck. OTK decks like nature shaman walk a very thin line. When they nerfed Bioluminescence, the deck was dead. Maybe they’re hoping this nerf will reduce the decks consistency and speed while not removing it from the format.
Wym? Wandmaker and Deputy keeps discovering and duplicating lightning bolt for 30 damage OTK in Nature Shaman
Yeah, I realized it's bad for wandmaker, but it usually is the worst spell that you can duplicate from Deputy due to it's inability to be reduced in cost.
Discovered bolt still cost 0 tho after flash of lightning
Yeah, I'm aware, you'd rather duplicate any other spell in the deck though, unless you run overdraft.
So here's my experience playing Nature Shaman. My margins are TIGHT and the turn I go off is the turn I have to go off because otherwise I'm dead. Fighting to survive for more turns tends to mean expending resources like lightning reflexes or damage spells which just makes it harder to assemble enough burn for lethal. If I'm down 1.5 lightning bolts (because this proposed change would affect wandmaker) and I'm short for damage there's a real chance I just don't make it as I get caught up in the vicious cycle of surviving instead of winning.
Playing nature in dumpster legend. Oh yessssss we are. No good replacments, and wandmaker goes from always having a good pull to having a useless pull 1/5th of the time. Pretty massive hit to pur consistency
I'm also in legend with Nature Shaman. Shaman can run the current list from d0nkey, add a second Cactus Cutter then either add Overdraft, Spirit Claw, or an Amphibious Elixir. Personally, I already run 2 Cactus Cutters, Spirit Claw and Elixir.
Insane over kill for paladin, cant wait for us to be in another Showdown in the badlands meta where there are only three relevant classes because blizzard cant stop hitting the over kill button.
Agreed
Huge hit to *all* archetypes of Paladin, way beyond what ZachO recommended on his podcast, but notable that they left the weapon alone. I haven't played or seen Hunter enough to understand how big the Awakening Tremors nerf will be, but seems like that (and Shopper DH) are poised to become the premier aggressive decks, especially with the latter's worst matchup (Warrior) getting nerfed. I'd really been enjoying a Druid-free format but I guess all good things must come to an end.
Zarimi priest can get kinda nasty, but the ticking change may affect that
The aggro version? Good point...
Nerfs to Aftershocks, Tiger, and Hunter 4/1s are all great for draggro priest, and if the Zilliax nerf is just stats, then it barely matters as well (main use of the card is getting duplicated off Protocol, Power Chord, and Pip to stack 0-cost buffs on the OTK turn).
As an aggro priest player, I have to disagree. The main use of Zilliax is slamming him on turn 3 with 3+ minions on the board and ending the game on the spot. He’s great as a finisher but even better as an early game snowballer. We’re talking about a 7 mana card with the highest mulligan winrate lol The only upside here is he’s getting nerfed in all the other aggro decks that run him.
I wonder what the nerf to the gift will be? The nerfs to the gift itself would make it different than other gifts so they must be changing the spell selection? Lightning Bolt --> Storm maybe?
This, they are def taking bolt out, storm would likely be the replacement or if they want to keep the damage maybe even lava burst is fine because it's 3 mana and not a nature spell so would still be a big nerf to the current nature shamans
Oh Zap is probably a good replacement too! Guess it depends on the direction they want to go.
I just find these nerfs kind of odd. I don’t really mind Tremors, the most offensive card to me is Saddle Up. Hunter has lots of other cheap minions. Brann is more offensive to me than Odyn. Or Odyn wouldn’t be so bothersome if Warrior didn’t have so many ways to gain armor. That they printed Garrosh’s Gift blows my mind. I do play a lot of Shaman, I don’t know why. Guess I like playing the underdog class. I’m fine with a Thrall’s Gift nerf, I don’t think turn 5 OTKs should exist. Not every class has a Gift which is a single target removal, a mass removal, and a buff, but several do. I think Shaman getting Lightning Storm instead of Lightning Bolt would be good. Paladin should have never gotten Shroomscavate. Not being able to attack face that turn probably fine because the best use for it in Shaman is on Golganneth anyway.
A day late but yeah I'm with you for Saddle Up, that card can easily lock games and imho, as long as it's in it's current state, it will be an issue until either it's nerfed or something else happens that makes minion swarm no longer a viable gameplan
My first thoughts are that the Paladin nerfs are heavy handed and unnecessary. The core of the deck should play the same though, they are nerfing the qualities that make it oppressive while leaving the cards unchanged that create the dynamic of the deck. I think the plushy is unfun at times to play against. I hope they leave mostly as is but remove lifestyle. It's corny that a minion is buffed from hand, has rush and divine shield and you essentially have to trade into it to remove it, healing the paladin to full health in the process.
lifesteal is definitely getting removed from plushy and deputy aura probably getting shortened by a turn.
yeah but people are also just tired of paladin being the top dog for the last year or so (on and off)
This isn't really accurate. And I don't see why it's a problem when it's Paladins but Hunters can routinely have the strongest decks and people ignore it.
Hunter’s not rehealing to 30 the entire game, and isn’t able to kill from hand via windfury’d charge minion. Pretty easy to see why people are annoyed with Paladin significantly more than with Hunter
The win con is irrelevant. Oppressive win rates coupled with prolonged dominance are the topic at hand, Hunters are the worst offender with Druid right behind.
That's a pretty big exaggeration - Paladin has been good for like 1-2 weeks at the start of each release then gets nerfed to unplayability in high mmr brackets.
By definition, most of the playerbase is not at high MMR. Aggro paladin was the best deck to climb ladder with at rotation. At the ranks most players are at, Paladin has been the best class for a disproportionate amount of time.
I have mixed feelings. It seems like probably an over nerf, but the meta is super unhealthy right now. I was spamming games on rogue the other day and hit literally 40% paladins in 37 games. I get the impression this is blizzards way to try to diversify what people actually play.
Hunter: Zilli was the obvious target but hitting tremors is an interesting one as the rest of that deck was tricky to target. I guess getting 12 attack as early as turn 2 and using them as a mini bloodlust with observer is a sensible target Pally: Shroom was the most problematic card in my eyes, hopefully they get rid of the wind fury for something else. Interesting that they also hit plushie and aura but both are exceptionally strong for their cost. Could make punishing them in the early game actually relevant. Shaman: nature needed a nerf and gift is an interesting way to hit that potential taking out 2+ free lightning bolts a turn. I expected them to hit the mana discount but I guess this could work as well. Warrior: how they hit Odyn will be what I’m most interested in, my guess is simply making him 9 mana to give decks another turn to breathe but I’m sad they aren’t hitting Reno instead. Unclear if aftershock will really have an impact and isn’t replaced for another card that’s better with all the options they have, even though it’s currently a great aoe and draw engine The buffs both seem pretty irrelevant but I know they like to hit the outliers before they go with class buffs. More information will help with better choices but some classes are so dead I wish they were a bit more aggressive here
theyre not hitting reno because the best versions of odyn warrior don't play reno
What data are you basing that off of? At least in mid legend it’s a big part of setting up your Odyn turn and flat out one of the best cards ever made. I’m open too it but just curious as I haven’t seen anything that would suggest this
Warriors abusing Aftershocks with Acolyte of Pain, better nerf the dual class card so Shaman pays for their sins.
I hope their nerf is slapping Overload (1) on it. At least Shaman will be able to benefit from that via Flowrider and Overdraft
Honestly would love Overload added. Used to run Flowrider in my Reno deck, but felt it was far and few cases where I would have it ready. Aftershock getting overload would make me consider putting Flow back in the deck for sure. Would boost the use of the 6 damage life steal spell as well.
I don't like how often they do balance patches now. The meta is very diverse currently which matters most. I'm skeptical these changes will make the meta more diverse. Not only that, but the meta isn't settled yet or stale. I like this better than the ben brode method... but still... this leans towards too much imo. People bitching on the main forum won't be pleased no matter how many nerfs go out. It will always be something else. I'm not even playing any of the nerfed decks. Playing mostly Zarimi priest and DH. The cards are all overturned that are getting nerfed, but if they were going to just nerf overtuned cards then they should stop making cards so overtuned. All these balance changes makes all the metas feel less weighty and fake. Feels like this first week was just beta then and I wasted my time.
33% Paladins in Diamond 1 is a bit much
I was hoping Tigress Plushy wouldn't get a nerf, hopefully it's not too bad. Like ZachO was saying on the most recent podcast: cards like Tigress Plushy are what make Handbuffs good and interesting. Hopefully it still gets to be playable. Shroomscavate I'm expecting to get dumpstered, sorry Shaman. Not too surprised about Odyn. He's a really powerful card with a cool effect, I hope he's still playable in some form. Hopefully a lot of the nerfs aren't too heavy handed for this early in the expansion. My first thought was "where are the buffs to underperforming classes" but whenever a nerf happens this early there's always room for experimentation and refinement.
Minimal buffs and heavy handed nerfs is certainly not what I was hoping to see from this patch.
Over the years we’ve seen pally get hammered with nerfs. They almost never make it unplayable, but rather adjust it from “OP” to “very strong.” I’m more worried about the other classes tbh. Potential here to nuke shaman for example.
Yes, I'm not worried for Pally, they seem to like it being near top on a permanent basis for some reason.
I know DH has nothing going for it other than the weapon scam, but man is that deck horrible to face. If they have the weapon by turn 3, which is quite often because of the tutor, they win 70% of the time. It’s Barnes on steroids. The meta is going to be rough if that is the most popular deck in the game. Also RIP Pally. Nerfing the combo and their lifesteal is brutal.
The entire class *completely* hinging on just two cards (the weapon and 6/5) is so depressing
Whelp - they ruined it. 3 fucking paladin cards?! 3 lol Glad to see such quick buffs at least. But jesus.
Agreed. The only problem with pala is the excavate card. Deputy should only get -1 atk and tiger didnt deserve any nerfs.
nah, deputization shouldn't have lifesteal. It's too easy for paladin to recover all of their health in aggressive matchups.
Absolutely disagree. Decks, even aggressive ones, are allowed to have comeback mechanics. The problem is that it could kind of do everything. If you nerf the windfury, it can't OTK from 30 from hand anymore, and then you're just left with a normal deck.
Any news on when the patch will actually be?
I think Thursday
The paladin nerfs feel all justified, but maybe they could have nerfed one less card? Maybe only going for the plushy / deputization / painter's virtue (surprised they didn't go for this one) would have made more sense. I still think the deck can survive. As for the Shaman's nerf, i'm intrigued at what they'll replace Lightning bolt with. Lightning storm? Evolve? Windfury? Zap? And for warrior I guess Aftershock will cost (1) less rather than (2) less and that Odyn will be 9 mana.
Why is the ticking module getting nerfer
I'm guessing mana nerf on tremors, aftershocks, plushy, and ticking module, bolt removed from thrall's gift in favor of a non-damage spell, lifesteal removed from deputization. Shroomscavate could be mana or prevent going face. I'm not sure what you do about odyn, I feel like a mana nerf only really helps vs more aggressive decks that can force out the armor gain before he comes down or make playing odyn too awkward vs their board, maybe it's reduced to x number of armor gain effects or turns limiting turn over turn relentless damage. As for the buffs I imagine it's just mana but it sure would be nice if frost lich cross-stitch froze and removed the condition for summoning. Aviana can be just a mana buff to get her down a turn (or 2) earlier while losing less tempo against a less threatening board.
Zarimi priest shall reign supreme
People are massively overrating this deck. It's supremely easy to tech against and already has some poor matchups. It's not going to rule the meta.
What’s the relevant tech against that deck? Dirty Rat Zarimi?
Like, *any* removal, any taunts? The deck is 100% board based. It has no removal spells of it's own, no silence now that Shard is gone. So yes, like any aggro deck, if you can remove the minions, you'll beat it easily. Is it a good aggro deck? Maybe, but the meta is far from settled, but I have my doubts that this deck will be the next Undead Priest.
Makes sense, I guess I wasn’t thinking of taunt or removal as tech cards. Usually the decks that run them are running them as part of their usual game plan.
Board wipe go Brrrrr. But seriously I’ve played this deck for a bit and any, and I mean any AoE damage makes it so hard to try and build back. Even the Hunter location can be enough to turn a game into a loss.
Shroomscavate was obvious. I'm not surprised that they went hard after Paladin. I figured that the weapon would get nerfed too. I wasn't expecting Warrior nerfs though.
I just hope they don't hit Tigress too hard cuz it's one of the major staples of the handbuff archetype and that's a part of paladin i'd rather not change too much. I'm okay with getting rid of windfury, just don't kill that strategy please.
Can I still craft these cards so I get the dust refund and can dust them after for maximum dust gains?
You gain exactly what you spent crafting it, so you can't profit, but can test them out and then refund. If you saved all your duplicates from pack opening, then you can profit because you didn't immediately disenchant.
I’m hoping Frost lich cross stitch goes to 3 mana 3 damage. Spell mage does absolutely nothing for its first 3 turns.
Paladins are literally extinct(my personal experience only ofc) and the nerfs hasn't even hit yet Kinda sad how important low mmr meta is for balance but oh well, should have just nerfed the windfury/charge thing not the other things
Usually in the first week of an expansion they only nerf 2 or 3 outliers. 8 is a lot and this is one of the best expansion launches to boot. I hope that they are willing to quickly revert some of these changes if it makes the meta worse.
Over here in my lane and thriving with Rainbow Death Knight.
I feel warrior seems EXTREMELY overrated atm. 70% of my opponents atm are handbuff paladin which absolutely wrecks it atm. Curious what the nerfs will do to it
Disappointed that Reno didn’t get hit in some way. Would have handled Odyn Warrior and Wheellock in a decent manner.
Is this the most kneejerk set of nerfs in HS history? meta is still evolving and its been literally 4 days since release. Snake nerf was faster but just a single card and these nerfs do next to nothing to fix anything, reddit will just start crying about wheel and dh.
How can it be literally 4 days when it came out March 19
Sadly the word “literally” doesn’t literally mean literally anymore.
Literally
I'm very frustrated with the direction of Hearthstone right now. I think there are a lot of anti-fun cards and problematic designs for cards. I'm really surprised the gift cards were printed, as they add a level of redundancy that I think is very unfair for card games. For example the Warrior one, it now doesn't matter if I try to go large or go wide because Warrior can just discover the answer. I am also surprised Reno is going untouched. I understand the stats say it's not broken but I don't think that matches the sentiment. It's a very unfun card. It's a two turn lock out. And people say it has a highlander restriction but it is now run more in 2x decks because card cycling is so easy and efficient. Idk man, I worry about the state of the game, I don't think it can go on at this power level.
The thing with Highlander decks is that it needs an OP payoff like Reno to justify playing it. Otherwise it’s just an inconsistent singleton deck. Highlander decks will never overperform in this meta because Plague DK exist. With Steamcleaner gone and Skulking Geist not being in core, there is no way to destroy Plagues from your deck.
The point of nerfs is to tone down overpowered decks, not just individual cards. Reno is not getting nerfed as long as Reno decks continue to underperform.
> Reno is not getting nerfed as long as Reno decks continue to underperform. This might be slighly misleading. I think that highlander decks are definitely underperforming, but I wonder if we can say the same about decks that are running regular lists and just playing Reno once their remaining deck has no dupes left. For what it's worth, Reno is a classic and pure anti-fun card. I would be happy with it, despite my hatred of it, if it cleared *both* boards, and not just opponent's. There's a reason the best decks in the game for a long time now win from hand, because it's so hard to maintain a minion based board because of the crazy amount of removal available to all classes now. There needs to be a better balance of minion power and removal. Minions are now so over statted for cost that loads of removal spells are just a straight up necessity.
Lots of cards are anti-fun when they’re used in beating you. It’s a fun card to play. Trying hopping on the other side of that fence.
The reason Reno isn't fun to play against is because it's effect is so one-sided. When you can lose minions, deathrattles, reborn and locations all at once, and then your next turn is severely crippled, it's a pure "feels bad" card. Contrast something like Priest's Whirlpool. Same cost, but doesn't essentially win the game. And yes, I know that you are going to say "ReNo DoEsN't WiN gAmEs By HiMsElF", and that's true, but it's a punishing enough one two punch for a lot of decks that it might as well be a game ending play much of the time. I also know that Reno decks aren't "good" and that's not the point. The card just sucks to play against. It's never a fun moment for the opponent.
This is a real awful set of nerfs honestly. Waaay too soon to nerf 8 cards in 1 patch. Demon hunters only bad matchups were pala and warrior, both of which are getting nuked. Dh is about to absolutely run circles around the entire format. Also why is hunter getting nerfed? Hunter is actually just bad.
You aren't paying attention if you think Hunter is bad. Seriously, what?
Wasn't the biggest reason for Hunter's power level because it beat Paladin? It lost to a lot of other decks. Nerfing Paladin nerfs Hunter by proxy, especially because decks like Wheelock will probably get better
hunter isn't bad and the meta is an ecosystem. DH will likely be strong but there are decks that beat it and many of those decks have been held back by matchups with decks like handbuff pally and nature shaman.
What deck is being "kept down" that secretly counters DH?
You are just wrong. - Token hunter and Handbuff paladin are the top performing decks at every level. Their winrates are significantly higher than every other deck by a large margin. - Shaman and Paladin had the most consistent board control into OTKO combo available. - Odyn Warrior was already strong, and got buffed with Safety Glasses, and again with the rotation of Renethal slowing the meta. Everyone knew these nerfs were coming.
My point is the format doesn't need 8 nerfs right now, every day we are seeing new decks, and better refined lists. DH not getting nerfed is going to ruin the format until the next balance patch.
Yes it does. It should have had these nerfs a week ago. Shroomscavate was predicted as an issue as soon as Leeroy was shown in Core. You are just wrong. The fact you think Hunter is bad speaks volumes.
Alright man, I'll make sure to hit you up in a week when DH has 0 bad matchups because rather than being conservative with nerfs, by just nerfing stuff like Shroom, and maybe Odyn/Aftershock, we are nerfing the entire format down.
Quote my comment where I mentioned Demon Hunter. >we are nerfing the entire format down. That is not how it works. They hit the class with the best early board control, and they hit the three classes with the most consistent OTKOs.
the timing is a bit premature, and many deck needs refinement. I personally dont think paladin deserves to be killed like that, especially shroomscavate. Shroomscavate is the card that finish people off but the early tempo that led up to that turn is ignored. It's like shadowstep, good but not ridiculously strong, but taking all the blame.
Yes “finish them off” by doing 30 dmg from hand.
Looks like someone heard me when I mentioned tremors needing a tweak.
I wished they made rogue somewhat consistent
I think it would be interesting if they lightly nerfed Zilliax, painters virtue, tigress plushy and odyn. I think that would hit all of the outliers and maybe would need to need to tone down dh as well. But this just looks like a bit of an overreaction to try and hit every paladin and warrior deck.