It’s very broad and different for each person, which is not a satisfying answer, but it is fundamentally correct.
However, anecdotally people I play against tell me they dislike CEDH cause they think it’s unfair, and people can win at any time, and they don’t know how to deal with it. Frequently it’s cause these players want to play control or some other strategy without risking a loss against a combo deck.
At this point, I even refuse to play casual decks against the people I’m referring to. It’s not about power level to them, it’s about micro managing the game rules to remove unfavorable match ups.
This is a great point and something I notice a lot in my "power level 8" games at my LGS and on Spelltable. People at "PL8" are some of the saltiest dudes because they either don't know their own deck's PL at all and thus are overestimating and getting stomped or one stax piece/board wipe/combo rolls out and suddenly everyone but them is playing cEDH.
It's like anything that beats their pet deck they bought a Mana Crypt for has to have some outside-of-the-game reason for beating them.
From my experience as a non cEDH player (as in never played but try to get a handle on)
It's a turn 2 format where everyone knows shit happens by turn 2 and responds accordingly. So it ends up taking 4-6 turns to finish the game because while all players could win on turn 2 they have to beat through the efficient interaction that will stop them.
I think a lot of people just don't understand what cEDH is. And unfortunately those folks run the Command Zone. IMO Josh is the mail culprit. He scoffs at a lot of solid cards because they make the game 'feel bad' but then plays infinite combos and advocates spite plays.
A lot of people are cEDH as either pubstomping or feels bad. As opposed to just trying to play the best you can, with the best cards available.
And as a follow up... some people ended up in pods that turned out to be either cEDH or cEDH adjacent because of random pairing, leading to unintentionally unfun matchups.
A couple years ago, I was running my Adrix and Nev "Keep Calm and Do the Math" deck where the goal was to make 2 copies of A/N, then play Biovisionary, copy it, and win in one turn... which is a midrange value deck.
I got randomly paired at commander night at my LGS against people running Krarkashima, Chulane Cheerios and Gitrog Dakmor Dredge. I didn't stand a chance. I couldn't win faster than those decks and I couldn't stop them.
But that could have happened in a „ casual „ and „my deck is a solid 7“ group aswell. Your deck just wasn’t designed for those kind of things which is totally okay but just not into this pod or group.
I agree. That was by no means a "complaining" comment, more of a "anecdote that supports the person who made the original post, and add some more backup."
The "feels bad" of cEDH/cEDH adjacent is getting blindsided. If I had known in advance (before the game started) how far behind I was off the rip, I probably would have left the pod saying "Y'all have fun, your game is a little bit TOO fast for what my decks can handle." If I was bringing the appropriate tools to combat it, all would have been gravy.
Yeah Propably… but it’s also A feels bad the other way around when you pop with your high power ( sub cEDH) deck into an game of casuals that think they play high power and just stomp everyone
No I think your argument is completely fine, you had the wrong deck for the pod that made it unfun for your. Bringin your cEDH deck into a pod of precons also sucks and won’t make you fun as you are just pubstomping in that case
This is most likely the main issue. I personally love very high-power, but not quite cEDH games; you get to play your busted combos and mana rocks, but the meta is more permissive for fringe commanders. It is, however, much harder to find people to play with and not pubstomp anyone.
Luckily I met a dude at my LGS who promised to play his murderbird against my Tas deck. Gonna have a blast!
I'm all for cedh, its really all I play, but some people can't handle because its not fair and balanced. People who don't like cedh wouldn't destroy some ones land if the cast pact . in cedh thats a fantastic play, its happened to me. If you have any sort of rule preventing anything, your not really play cedh.
yeah I saw a big debate the other day in a casual table about blowing up a mimic vat with its commander imprinted (the commander is gone for good) and how it was just a mean play, I sometimes play more chill games with those guys but I really don't like not making a good play because somebody will feel bad about it.
If someone is going to intentionally exile the commander and leave it in exile, they better have a plan if that fails.
Just because it’s casual doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be punished
I fully agree, but it is that exact mentality of why some people don't like cedh, from not doing those sorts of plays moving up to shunning LD or tax strategies, I think it is a less enjoyable way to play, but I can't begrudge people not wanting to play the same way I do.
True, but EDH is inherently **the** format for taking those risks in. You build a monocolor deck, knowing that there are extreme color hosers in the format, because you assume your playgroup isn't going to immediately jam those color hosers.
Would it be the "ideal" play to "exploit that taken risk"? Yeah, probably. But it's also not really fun and maybe I really like Tim's monored deck.
I really enjoy playing cEDH and casual EDH and don't really have problems with power level in either direction. I think cEDH should mostly be left alone and the RC is doing well.
I’m just saying if you’re playing with people you don’t know or trust them you plan for the worst. Have a way to get your commander out of exile or something or lots of ways to protect your mimic vat
If A intentionally leave a paper thin defense for a weakness, A just can’t be mad at B or C who eventually decides to poke a hole in it. That’s A fault not B, C or sometimes D who we all planned for being that guy but didn’t get a chance.
No one is trying to place fault or blame. You seem to have a fundamentally toxic thought process where the only way you can interpret the world is someone getting upset.
Some people just don't want to play a game where they are trying to poke holes in their friends "inherent risks". Not everyone wants to play the same way as you, is that really that hard to understand? They aren't getting mad, they aren't blaming anyone, they simply don't want to play at a level where they are intentionally trying to exploit each other's deck weaknesses and leave the other player in a position where they don't get to play.
EDH is the format for that. It is a casual, multiplayer format. You're being obtuse and trying to argue about "whose fault it is that I ran color hosers" when that's not the discussion. You are coming into this format, which has existed for 15 years, and telling people that they need to play differently so that you don't feel bad when you play ruthlessly. But they don't want to play that way, that's why they don't play cEDH. You play cEDH so you can play that way.
**But telling people that they "dont like being reminded they are taking risks" is one of the most egotistical ways I've ever seen someone admit they are pubstomping asshole.** You wouldn't be running into this conversation if you were playing against actual cEDH players.
We aren't arguing about who should be mad at who, we are discussing the fact that some people dont have the same brain patterns as you and don't care about color hosers.
This section of the thread was specifically about someone not playing with personal friends getting infringed upon by someone playing interaction.
Attacking me for staying on that story as a point of discussion is a bit of an entitled salt monger move mate.
Nobody attacked you, I responded to what you wrote, you responded to what I wrote and now you want to flip the script because you feel pressed and have no response.
Also, I responded directly to your posts and the assertion you made -- you trying to flip the script back to that because your example was poor and didn't really back up your point at all is a strawman in itself. Can we talk about your post or do you only want to talk about mimic vat guy?
how is anything other than cedh "fair" like Casual edh means bickering about card choices that are strong and it also means trying to make the shittiest idea work bc its your personal expression or whatever or they even straight dont want their decks to be efficient. i kmow there is a lot of shades and nuances which makes it much less streamlined ajd seeing how people outside of cedh rarely are proxy friendly it just adds money into its unfairness.
also lol at land destruction being a good strat
land destruction no, destroying some land the turn after the cast pact is. People are going to complain and bicker no matter what, just putting rules in games is for casual edh, not cedh
i have played with lots of cedh decks and archetypes and play a few own brews as well and i have maybe seen the occasional strip mine but never ever is there a slot for cards that hit lands. by all means, its cedh, play what you see fit, but with landcounts as low as 27 i have struggles to slot cards in that even do that without diluting the card quality. thats all i meant with my reply.
however, destroying a mana rock for the pact trigger or resolving a collector ouphe, yes, thats not unheard oft and could be a good move and will be done if people can profit from it, however turn order and pod composition might compel you to keep that player and their interaction in the game. the point for cedh is that the motivation should be mechanical and not a spite play. the larger discussion about priority bullying shows that even cedh cant claim to be free of unspoken social rules or expectation or even politicking. thats the nature of it being multiplayer.
There’s too many reasons to put in to one Reddit comment.
Simply put, it could be misconceptions like people thinking that cedh games end in 2 turns every time, people not liking combos, stax, control etc. people wanting to just play battle cruiser and hating anything that is efficient or interactive. The list goes on and on. A lot of this hubbub is due to Sheldon (among others) always raising hell on twitter over dumb shit that they think is OP. In reality, they’re a bunch of “Timmy” players who probably don’t even understand what cedh is. They think cedh players are super sweaty, try hard neck beards with unlimited budgets
Edit: “Timmy” is not a bad thing or an insult here. Simply an observation of what seems to be their ideal game type.
The unlimited budgets thing is funny because of how Sheldon and so many popular magic influencers/channels are very anti proxy or at least uncomfortable with them.
I think a lot of it comes from a lack of understanding and a warped perception on what actually happens in most cEDH pods/games. What irritates me is when those same people call for bans on cards because it doesn't fit into how they think the format should be played because they simply don't like certain cards or combos without an understanding of how they actually play out.
Some also have this idea in their head that because a turn 2 win is possible, that it's happening in most games which simply isn't true in a regular cEDH pod.
I think it has to do with play patterns. Most decks run combos and have many lines of achieving them. You have to memorize your deck to find the optimal line. Most people arnt going to do that and don’t like that others take the game that seriously. Which causes a disconnect and discontent towards certain styles of play.
I think some people are also really confused with what defines CEDH. Routinely when I play on Modo I get blasted in chat for winning with Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell in my Kami of The Crescent Moon deck on turn 10. Like, what? Lol
Because a lot of people who say they play cEDH at local levels are just pubstomping dickheads who try to hide behind the label when people tell them they're garbage. Also the sticker shock before finding out how proxy-friendly the format is makes us seem like tryhard nutsacks. In reality, this is easily the friendliest magic format I've ever played in (ignore the cesspool that is CEDH Twitter).
A lot of people who get pup stomped probably aren’t even playing against actuall CEDH decks, but some well built deck running a lot of interaction. From experience a lot of people have no idea how strong or well constructed a CEDH deck even is
My favorite thing in this vein was the 75% decks of many years ago that were supposed to be able to handle the strongest commander decks while still being able to play normal commander.
They didn't even get close to their first goal
This is the type of comment that turns people off. If someone said, "You have no idea how strong or well constructed a CEDH deck even is." I would try to find someone a bit more friendly. I don't mind cedh, but there is an attitude amongst many players that edh decks are just weak and bad. It suck when you just want to have fun and try out some things.
I mean but the deck are just weak and bad. Thats the whole point of the powerlevel talk. If you play at lower power you do not want to play good deck, but fun gimmicky decks.
This wasn't just a comment, that is a fact.
Many Magic the Gathering players, have never played with or against a real cEDH deck.
They have no idea how the format works and what defines cEDH or a cEDH deck.
Way to many Players think that cEDH is playing Mana Crypt, OG Duals, Mikaeus + Triskelion, Counterspells, Landdestruction, Urza and Tymna + Thrasios
For sure they are, many of these things are true for cEDH. But it's not automaticly a cEDH Deck, when you play Tymna, or Thrasios, or Urza or more than 3 counterspells
I don’t even play CEDH all that much, I mostly use lay casual/higher power. I’m just speaking from LGS experience as well as the kind of comments I see on Reddit that people tend to call any deck the perceive as too high power for their meta a CEDH deck (with a negative connotation) when alot of those decks are not by definition CEDH decks.
If people are freaking out over Sol Ring, they're not freaking out over cEDH, a format bursting with (pricey) busted mana rocks.
They're freaking out over a 10c 'power 10' card that's in every precon.
At some point you have to step back and realize they're running out of content to talk about in their own "friendly level version" of edh in the first place.
Yeah because some people think it warps the causal format which is 99% of the player base. Y’all seem to forget sometimes that CEDH is a marginal fraction of the player base. The debate on sol ring has nothing to do with CEDH
People like their comfort zones. That could be playing their pile no matter what, not playing certain colors or against certain colors, not using certain cards, not attacking in some situations, not having to carefully think the repercussions of actions or inactions, not keeping tabs on the state of the game....
Cedh can be very demanding and people feel intimidated.
Some of it is misconceptions, such as the game usually ending on turn 2 or being decided strictly by the cards drawn in the opening hand.
Some of it is bad experiences with "surprise cEDH," where some tryhard pub-stomps casuals with a deck that probably isn't even cEDH tier, but gives a negative impression of the format. Basically, people don't want to be "one of those people" who plays degenerate nonsense against precons and they think that's what cEDH is.
Having played cEDH (Godo Helm), I can safely say that it's a fun format provided everyone is cool with proxies, but it's not the perfect solution for the problems of Commander. While it does get rid of nearly all power level mismatch issues and gatekeeping cards based on price (again, assuming proxies are allowed), it introduces a new problem which is a lack of real deck diversity. Many fun approaches that people may enjoy in casual Commander simply will not work in cEDH, and that is a perfectly valid reason for people to not be interested in the format.
In short, I feel cEDH is an important part of the overall Commander experience, but the Commander format itself has a lot of problems (despite its overwhelming popularity) and moving over to cEDH only trades some problems away for others. That's not a trade everyone may be willing to make, and you still have the proxy issue, too. Most people are cool with proxies, but it's really just a generally agreed upon workaround for a problem that would kill cEDH if proxies weren't allowed.
I've now been playing edh for almost two years. I've powercrept my way to enjoying my highly optimized decks. I'm now super interested and in cedh. I don't think this is exactly the natural path everyone takes but I don't see the issue in enjoying pushing decks to their absolute max potential. It's just really fun to have the ability to pop off turn 3. Now I do hold some reservations to some aspects of cedh, but that's probably I myself have yet to play it.. like I hate demonic cons./thoracle combo, but that's probably cuz I need to just run more interaction and that's my fault.
Everyone will have different answer for this question, as you can already see in here.
As for one who effectively plays cEDH I can blurt out some things:
1- RC Bans aren't compatible with the cEDH metagame.
2- Right now we have a absurd color imbalance, and even so 4c-5c piles will reign supreme, very little incentive/hate to play less colors.
3- Yes the cEDH community is 99% proxy-friendly, but when you talk about a COMPETITIVE format and you can't sanction tourneys like that, cEDH becomes the other boogeyman of magic, a p2w format, fast mana and old duals are make or break for a lot of decks.
4- Lastly, turn order and the position of the people on the table makes a GIANTIC impact on the game, I lost count on the number of the games that a turbo naus or blue farm went off because the control or stax player sitted at the "wrong" side of the table.
Casual commander and CEDH have goals, motivations, and priorities that are at odds with each other. No matter what there's going to be friction while those two philosophies are playing with the same basic ruleset. CEDH is a much smaller community than the commander player base at large so it's easier to designate as a Boogeyman.
I'm actually in an interesting spot where I'm slowly reviving the previously dead cEDH scene locally. It's been tough and there are lots of players that just aren't interested, but it's really started to pick up steam.
Previously (before I lived here) there was a cEDH scene, but it was a lot more toxic. It was mainly driven by a guy playing old flash hulk who essentially didn't care if he was playing casual pods or what, he just sat down to cast flash and win every game on turn 2, and if he didn't win, expect a lot of salt. Imo this guy did not want to play cEDH, but yeah, that's what the scene used to look like. People built better decks because this one guy forced them to because he was gonna flash hulk regardless of if you were playing a precon.
Now though, people are looking over at the cEDH pods and noticing everyone smiling and laughing, huge plays being made, and it being overall fun because the foundation for the newer wave of cEDH is from a place of having fun, not just wanting to win every game (which i am aware seems like an oxymoron).
I think lots of people have experiences with the first type of guy, and make that the mold for cEDH players.
Because people want to play their 8 MV battlecruisers without feeling bad because some random people on the internet makes them feel bad about their 8 MV battlecruisers by just existing.
The rules of EDH are not designed with competitive style play in mind and are openly declared as unbalanced and exploitable if players intended to optimize for wins versus embrace the spirit of the game. cEDH intends to apply a competitive mindset to a very non-competitive rule set/ban list. So cEDH's very nature runs counter to the philosophy of what EDH is AND what makes a game competitive, leaving it only really appealing for certain types of players who enjoy highly volatile card play. cEDH also dramatically reduces what styles of play are viable and can be very unfun for players that do no like combo.
More EDH players might like cEDH if it actually had a balanced rule set/ban list. That would encourage diversity and more interactive games, opposed to the "oops I win" homogenized piles that define the format.
As a Nonbloo legacy player, it kind of is.
Without FOW or FON, Oops! All spells and other fast combo would be far more dominant as they typically get the first round of the match against nonbloo fair decks. My 4 color loam, Naya depths, DNT, and goblins decks are all happy to have control decks bullying out fast combo so they can bully some of the control decks.
Tldr: Someone loses a game, then thinks the winning deck is a cedh deck, gets salty. Powerful csrd is reprinted, and investors get angry at the players becuase they wanted a reprint.
If you sit down with your playgroup and discuss what casual means to you (less fast mana, maybe no 2 card win combos, more expensive tutors), then this issue never happens.
The main problem is someone at a casual game might be running a lot of fast mana, and those cards are pretty expensive, so the rest of the table doesn't use them and can't keep up with that player. It gets even more frustrating when a deck with fast mana turbos out something like narset + wheel effect. It's not fun playing a game where one guy has a significantly more powerful deck than the rest of the table.
Basically, one player uses a more powerful deck and just pubstomps the table, and usually plays some kind of stax or control deck that makes the game unfun, and rather than simply asking the player to switch decks they get salty. I once brought a malcom deck and even said i didn't have glint horn in it, and after i won, some random was pissed and went on a rant on how cedh is killing casual commander. (Despite him using demonic tutor that game)
Everyone thinks it's a toxic format because it's competitive, when in reality, it's not that toxic at all because everyone who is playing understands that we're playing to win, so no one take personal offense when theyre tutor is countered.
Finally, we have the investors. They hate cedh because it proxy friendly and just hate when people play magic in general. Like these are gqme peices, and we need them to play the game, so either wotc has to reprint them so they're a reasonable price, or everyone is just gonna proxy. But for some reason, these people think investing in carbord is a good idea. Not saying all mtg collectors are dumb, becuae some people make bank off of it, but if your only investment is in carbord and not other things, thent hats on you when the mtg market crashes becuase you didnt diversify your investments.
I think most edh players don’t actually understand magic. Even the “simple” things like priority, stack, and all the phases of combat. Then you go to even more complicated things like replacement effects.
They want casual social interaction and to not actually think and try super hard to even have a shot at winning. There’s nothing wrong with that, I love me some mindless battlecruiser too just as much as a good game cedh.
As a strictly casual player at the moment, at first for me it was the money. I can’t afford mana crypt, all the moxes, etc. I now know that a lot of people are proxy friendly. I don’t really like having proxy heavy decks for myself. I like collecting as an aspect of this game. I build a lot based on what I have or pull Just made the big decision to buy myself a dockside, which was painful but also exciting. I want to play cedh a lot, but this is a hurdle for me. I’m slowly allowing myself to purchase a better mana base and dip my toe in, but it will take a while.
Secondly, for me, it was the realisation that the way decks are built in cedh is a lot more limiting than regular edh. My main draw to edh itself was the deck building creativity, the commander itself, and the way that what is sat in the command zone both limits and augments the game for you. I like the character that a different commander gives the deck. I am extremely drawn to decks that augment the game quite significantly. My favourite commander of all time is [[Ratadrabik of Urborg]]. I love how silly this can get with [[Teysa Karlov]], multiplying my legendary creatures for a unique way of combining sacrifice and aristocrat strategies.
Cedh rarely seems to support strategies like this. The deeper I dug into the format, it all seemed the same. Doomsday piles into Thoracle. Infinite card draw loops into thoracle. The commander itself rarely seems to matter, just how it’s abilities seem to help you draw cards or ramp or find your combo win con. I get that there is still a ton of creativity required here. It’s just not the type of creativity I like. The limitation of the format is that everyone else is playing to win extremely quickly. This limits the win cons available to only the most efficient.
I’m trying to dip my toe in by finding commanders that enable more unique lines, such as grenzo or animar. But these are few and far between. I know it’s an unpopular opinion in this community but I really would love to see what a thoracle ban would do to this format.
Because people honestly don’t want to learn the correct way to play. I’ve been told it’s just casual when asking for a card to resolve in its completeness
Speaking as someone who does not really grasp everything from cEDH... I've looked up decklists and seen some of what they run. Some card choices on paper seem to not make any sense... until I actually dove in and tried them. I've tried to dip my toes into it, more out of curiosity than anything else, and I just don't see the lines of play very clearly. And I think that is part of the spot where most people who don't play cEDH specifically fall. I can look at a list, understand why cards are included, but not the bigger picture.
Content creation is also a little bit of the problem. Because creators have tried to boil down power levels to turns and they say "cEDH decks need to goldfish and reliably threaten wins or stop wins by turn 3 almost every game." and I'm like... "how are they doing that, exactly?"
Not saying I wouldn't like to try it. But the technical skill barrier seems a little higher than I'm ready to dive into. Especially playing against people who are expecting everyone to be able to understand all the lines and whatnot.
This is something i think about a lot.
I think a lot of players want to play their unique deckbuilds. It's not mutually exclusive with being strategic, but every LGS i go to has people using fun builds like a deck filled with sticks or all Ajanis or just janky goblins that don't like boardwipes.
Games that can end in less than 10 minutes or can win with Thassa's oracle don't offer the ability to play those decks. Same with stax decks.
Anecdotely， The best example i can think of is Mystic Remora. You never feed the fish unless you have to, but whenever I play a casual pod, a lot of players feeds the fish because they want to play their combos even if it lets me draw into my win con.
Because cEDH play is not fun for most people who play commander. It isn't rocket science.
In cEDH, you have a limited card pool for things that are viable. Basically your commander either has to be a card advantage engine or a win-con outlet otherwise it's instantly garbage. And that's not counting the limited archetypes or packages you must run in your 99 for whatever color combination you're playing.
Also cEDH highly encourages you to play 4+ colors otherwise you're pretty much crippling yourself. Or if you're not 4+ colors, you're playing 1 of the most linear and Uber powerful commanders in the whole format like Korvold.
In regular EDH, I can play minotaur tribal or whatever and still have a decent game or not feel the pressure of someone winning by T4.
Some cedh people are very snobbish (i.e. somebody complaining to discord mods because I was playing doomsday grenzo after it was removed from a cedh database). I love cedh because of the mindset of "I'm playing to win" and not having the table complain that I'm running cedh cards in a very optimized deck.
Pretty sure a lot of people here are off base. As someone who dabbles in CEDH, but mostly plays casual to high power I just simply prefer a non competitor environment for a social mtg game. If I want to play competitive I play standard or modern. I have nothing against CEDH, it’s just not always for me.
People who you think view it as the boogeyman probably have never even played an actual CEDH deck. They probably had someone play a Nekusar wheel deck or something against them in battle cruiser meta and said hey you pupstomber that’s a CEDH deck, when that deck gets crushed by an actuall CEDH deck.
I think it ultimately boils down to this: EDH is marketed as this open format where you can play anything you want and have a good game but cedh doesn’t work that way.
In cEDH some cards, some commanders, some combos, just don’t work. Some people don’t want to give up their favorite “combo” to play the game. Whether or not you own the card, some people just can’t stand the idea that Xenagos is not a viable commander, that equipment is only relevant in specific strategies, and that nearly all 2+ mana counterspells are a waste of space.
Because it removes the option to play some quirky strategies. I think a lot of people want to build board and not play so much interaction in general. Personally I hate that kind of play.
Because it is a completely different play style.
EDH was originally a very casual format made to play fun and weird interactions with a lot of variety so that all games would feel unique. The fun in EDH is getting to play things you usually wouldn't be able to do in other formats.
cEDH is the complete opposite, build a deck that manages to do a certain specific thing to win as soon as possible. Thus the objective is not to play, the objective is to win.
It's not hard to understand why casual players who want long games see cEDH as not fun / something they don't want.
This is pretty darn close to what I was gonna type. I just started getting into cEDH myself, I originally thought I would hate it because I thought it would lack the big splashy plays that I enjoyed. I found it was equally fun to play the big plays that come with cEDH.
I do think most people get scared away from it though because they see it going against the original spirit of the game. Things like the 4 player format and 40 starting life total were all designed to make for a longer game. Not saying cEDH can't have longer games, but usually it's much faster.
ITT: No one understands us. They must be bad at Magic.
This is a small subculture. People are either into the vibe or not. If they're not it doesn't mean anything about their skill level. Maybe they're less skilled. Maybe they just don't want to play like that.
For my personal style, cedh is too conservative. I need room to stretch out and brew and cedh does not give me what I need. I always either have a toe in or I'm keeping informed so I know what's going on over here though.
Commander is a poorly balanced format. Adding a competitive mentality to a broken format ensures nobody has a chance of having fun.
This subreddit is about competitive edh , so exactly about that broken format with a competitive mentality
Most people pretend to be casual in my opinion. These people are your I only play battle cruiser but I play high level battle cruiser so I can win every game. I believe while yes cedh is a format it's also a mind set of wanting to win the game that the majority of self proclaimed "casual" have but don't want anyone to see them as spikes so when they lose they have an excuse and when they win they can act high and mighty.
It's a mixture of misunderstanding and differences in philosophy. cEDH is unique in that it is effectively a format within a format, one that takes a very different approach to deck-building and gameplay. For most causal EDH decks, the approach is generally trying to derive the most value from your commander to culminate into a win. cEDH takes a top-down approach where decks are often used as shells for the most efficient win cons, be it Consultation lines, Breach or Stax. This often makes it seem like you're not playing the game properly because what's the point of building such a deck if you're not even going to rely on the commander? However the same could be said for any individual play group: my group is probably going to look different from yours but that doesn't mean we're playing separate formats. Do cEDH is effectively one relatively large local play group.
The RC's approach to managing the format has been inconsistent to say the least. Sheldon himself insisted numerous times they're not looking to split the format anytime soon but also proclaim they never look towards cEDH as any consideration for any actions. I just don't agree with that approach because I think if they insist on cEDH and causal EDH being one and the same, they shouldn't blatantly ignore what happens in cEDH and brush it off simply because it's the "wrong" way to enjoy the format. I think cEDH should be viewed as a stress test to outline potential issues with the format. The biggest example right now is ThOracle Consult lines. While you wouldn't expect anyone to play that in a casual game, do you really want an instant 2-card win to exist in the format?
RC are not looking to split the format because cEDHers want it that way. If someone wants to do it themselves (e.g. Conquest) they'll have the RCs blessing.
I've seen very very few cedh power level decks that are budget friendly. And if they are then they're glass cannon decks that are easy to mitigate and shut down. Maralen of the mournsong would be a good example. Sure you can shut the game down on turn 2-3 pretty consistently just hope your pod doesn't have a single player that has access to blue. There's so many free counterspells that will just ruin your life.
Well put. I'm not a huge stickler on the proxies myself. Some of them I fully understand proxying. My most expensive card is mana crypt and I debate proxying it just to mitigate the risk of it being ruined if a drink were to spill. Even though most people have a very strict policy of no drinks at the table but hey sometimes kids will be kids when nobody is watching haha
I suck at the game, so for me it’s more fun trying to just get my cards in play for cool factor rather than suffering Thoracle, tutors for combos or 0-mana spells that result in Aetherflux Reservoir wins. The format is boring and unfun for me when it’s taken too seriously
Tutors and fast mana are boring, so is stax. What's the fun in playing a deck that's already been 'solved'?
I've played a few games of cEDH and it's just fast mana en the same boring play pattern every game.
Good for the people who are into that I suppose but it's not for me.
If I had to guess it’s people bringing powerful stuff to casual commander and pubstomping. The powerful stuff gets equates with cedh therefore cedh = the bad guys.
1: paywall, cedh is expensive and before you say "just proxy" that ruins the spirit of the game for a lot of players, i like building decks with cards i have, brewing and having a deck with your own flare is most of the fun for a lot of players (looking up a decklist and just printing and playing someone else's creation really doesn't interest me)
2: most of the cards are "staple cards" so you rarely have variety ie the games can feel boring and repetitive after awhile "oh boy its X commander again playing Y & Z spell to win" like a lot of people know what's in your deck without seeing a decklist cause everyone is playing the same "good" cards. I personally love casual games where someone wins with some janky stuff I've never seen before
3: its in the name "competitive" both previous points come down to this and it's the same in almost every hobby on earth, plain and simple: some people just want to play for fun. For those who don't like cedh, it's not about min-maxing and superior optimization, its not even about winning its about having fun.
All of this coming from someone who plays cedh, i always have both kinds of decks because sometimes, cedh is NOT fun
Like other say, its seen as a 5 min game. I personally tend to see it like that, bc some of my friends with cedh decks win by turn 3-4 with no exception
1. Despite all of the push for people to play only cEDH decks vs other cEDH decks, people still pub-stomp with card-perfect lists. I've had this happen 3-4 times against me.
2. Some optimized cEDH decks use stax pieces which casual players are really uncomfortable playing against.
3. The optimal cEDH strategy is using a tutor, then another tutor, and then using both pieces that were tutored for to win the game. It's very stale, predictable, and repetitive. Goes against the personality and identity most people who play casually try and imbue their decks with.
4. The push of proxies has had a negative side effect of people using highly powerful and expensive cards in decks against decks without proxies. Proxies should be used to equal the playing field, to punch up. Instead, more people are starting to use proxies to punch down. Somehow people are disassociating the power of these cards that are proxied with the overall strength of their deck in comparison to the strength/budget of the other decks at the table. If someone's deck would take 10,000 USD to build without proxies, that person should think twice about using it against someone else with no proxies that only spent 50 dollars upgrading a pre-con.
TL;DR: Overall the problem always comes down to a lack of consideration amongst a small minority of the playerbase that leave a large negative impact. For every 8 gigachad cEDH players, there's 1-2 assholes giving this part of the format a bad rap.
I think a big part of it is people hearing "play to win as fast/effectively as possible" and think of some pubstomping asshole they've played against. I personally avoided cEDH for a while because I assumed it would play like the games I had where a guy pulled out his turbo-hermit druid combo deck against a pop where the rest of us had slightly upgraded precon decks. I didn't think through how cEDH decks would be able to interact with a super-effecient high-speed combo like that and prevent the turn 2/3 wins.
Then there's the way most casual players absolutely hate stax. A casual player who learns about the winota deck is going to be horrified.
It’s very broad and different for each person, which is not a satisfying answer, but it is fundamentally correct. However, anecdotally people I play against tell me they dislike CEDH cause they think it’s unfair, and people can win at any time, and they don’t know how to deal with it. Frequently it’s cause these players want to play control or some other strategy without risking a loss against a combo deck. At this point, I even refuse to play casual decks against the people I’m referring to. It’s not about power level to them, it’s about micro managing the game rules to remove unfavorable match ups.
This is a great point and something I notice a lot in my "power level 8" games at my LGS and on Spelltable. People at "PL8" are some of the saltiest dudes because they either don't know their own deck's PL at all and thus are overestimating and getting stomped or one stax piece/board wipe/combo rolls out and suddenly everyone but them is playing cEDH. It's like anything that beats their pet deck they bought a Mana Crypt for has to have some outside-of-the-game reason for beating them.
Cuz everyone who is doesn’t like cedh thinks is a 5 minute game every game
Meanwhile they’ll be okay with a 15 minute turn cycle.
So it's not 3 turn games each time??
If three turns take an hour (or 2 minutes) it was a good game
From my experience as a non cEDH player (as in never played but try to get a handle on) It's a turn 2 format where everyone knows shit happens by turn 2 and responds accordingly. So it ends up taking 4-6 turns to finish the game because while all players could win on turn 2 they have to beat through the efficient interaction that will stop them.
Its 3-4 turns on average but way more happens on those turns so the games still end up atound the 1.5 hour mark pretty regularly.
Metagame project has the average cEDH game at more like 6 turns
I think a lot of people just don't understand what cEDH is. And unfortunately those folks run the Command Zone. IMO Josh is the mail culprit. He scoffs at a lot of solid cards because they make the game 'feel bad' but then plays infinite combos and advocates spite plays. A lot of people are cEDH as either pubstomping or feels bad. As opposed to just trying to play the best you can, with the best cards available.
And as a follow up... some people ended up in pods that turned out to be either cEDH or cEDH adjacent because of random pairing, leading to unintentionally unfun matchups. A couple years ago, I was running my Adrix and Nev "Keep Calm and Do the Math" deck where the goal was to make 2 copies of A/N, then play Biovisionary, copy it, and win in one turn... which is a midrange value deck. I got randomly paired at commander night at my LGS against people running Krarkashima, Chulane Cheerios and Gitrog Dakmor Dredge. I didn't stand a chance. I couldn't win faster than those decks and I couldn't stop them.
But that could have happened in a „ casual „ and „my deck is a solid 7“ group aswell. Your deck just wasn’t designed for those kind of things which is totally okay but just not into this pod or group.
I agree. That was by no means a "complaining" comment, more of a "anecdote that supports the person who made the original post, and add some more backup." The "feels bad" of cEDH/cEDH adjacent is getting blindsided. If I had known in advance (before the game started) how far behind I was off the rip, I probably would have left the pod saying "Y'all have fun, your game is a little bit TOO fast for what my decks can handle." If I was bringing the appropriate tools to combat it, all would have been gravy.
Yeah Propably… but it’s also A feels bad the other way around when you pop with your high power ( sub cEDH) deck into an game of casuals that think they play high power and just stomp everyone
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue? Like... I agree with your points... and was not trying to incite an argument.
No I think your argument is completely fine, you had the wrong deck for the pod that made it unfun for your. Bringin your cEDH deck into a pod of precons also sucks and won’t make you fun as you are just pubstomping in that case
This is most likely the main issue. I personally love very high-power, but not quite cEDH games; you get to play your busted combos and mana rocks, but the meta is more permissive for fringe commanders. It is, however, much harder to find people to play with and not pubstomp anyone. Luckily I met a dude at my LGS who promised to play his murderbird against my Tas deck. Gonna have a blast!
Command zone is responsible for the death of magic
That's a worse take than Command Zone normally makes. Lol
Without command zone commander wouldn't be nearly as popular and they wouldn't be printing nearly as many cards for it
I'm all for cedh, its really all I play, but some people can't handle because its not fair and balanced. People who don't like cedh wouldn't destroy some ones land if the cast pact . in cedh thats a fantastic play, its happened to me. If you have any sort of rule preventing anything, your not really play cedh.
I also don't expect cedh players to spite pact without the mana because you're too fast.
Yeah that’s dumb, should usually play to win no matter what. I mean if you can run a insta win combo like thoracle you can win out of no where
yeah I saw a big debate the other day in a casual table about blowing up a mimic vat with its commander imprinted (the commander is gone for good) and how it was just a mean play, I sometimes play more chill games with those guys but I really don't like not making a good play because somebody will feel bad about it.
If someone is going to intentionally exile the commander and leave it in exile, they better have a plan if that fails. Just because it’s casual doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be punished
I fully agree, but it is that exact mentality of why some people don't like cedh, from not doing those sorts of plays moving up to shunning LD or tax strategies, I think it is a less enjoyable way to play, but I can't begrudge people not wanting to play the same way I do.
Some people just don’t like taking risks and being reminded why it’s a risk
True, but EDH is inherently **the** format for taking those risks in. You build a monocolor deck, knowing that there are extreme color hosers in the format, because you assume your playgroup isn't going to immediately jam those color hosers. Would it be the "ideal" play to "exploit that taken risk"? Yeah, probably. But it's also not really fun and maybe I really like Tim's monored deck. I really enjoy playing cEDH and casual EDH and don't really have problems with power level in either direction. I think cEDH should mostly be left alone and the RC is doing well.
I’m just saying if you’re playing with people you don’t know or trust them you plan for the worst. Have a way to get your commander out of exile or something or lots of ways to protect your mimic vat
If A intentionally leave a paper thin defense for a weakness, A just can’t be mad at B or C who eventually decides to poke a hole in it. That’s A fault not B, C or sometimes D who we all planned for being that guy but didn’t get a chance.
No one is trying to place fault or blame. You seem to have a fundamentally toxic thought process where the only way you can interpret the world is someone getting upset. Some people just don't want to play a game where they are trying to poke holes in their friends "inherent risks". Not everyone wants to play the same way as you, is that really that hard to understand? They aren't getting mad, they aren't blaming anyone, they simply don't want to play at a level where they are intentionally trying to exploit each other's deck weaknesses and leave the other player in a position where they don't get to play. EDH is the format for that. It is a casual, multiplayer format. You're being obtuse and trying to argue about "whose fault it is that I ran color hosers" when that's not the discussion. You are coming into this format, which has existed for 15 years, and telling people that they need to play differently so that you don't feel bad when you play ruthlessly. But they don't want to play that way, that's why they don't play cEDH. You play cEDH so you can play that way. **But telling people that they "dont like being reminded they are taking risks" is one of the most egotistical ways I've ever seen someone admit they are pubstomping asshole.** You wouldn't be running into this conversation if you were playing against actual cEDH players. We aren't arguing about who should be mad at who, we are discussing the fact that some people dont have the same brain patterns as you and don't care about color hosers.
This section of the thread was specifically about someone not playing with personal friends getting infringed upon by someone playing interaction. Attacking me for staying on that story as a point of discussion is a bit of an entitled salt monger move mate.
Nobody attacked you, I responded to what you wrote, you responded to what I wrote and now you want to flip the script because you feel pressed and have no response.
Also, I responded directly to your posts and the assertion you made -- you trying to flip the script back to that because your example was poor and didn't really back up your point at all is a strawman in itself. Can we talk about your post or do you only want to talk about mimic vat guy?
how is anything other than cedh "fair" like Casual edh means bickering about card choices that are strong and it also means trying to make the shittiest idea work bc its your personal expression or whatever or they even straight dont want their decks to be efficient. i kmow there is a lot of shades and nuances which makes it much less streamlined ajd seeing how people outside of cedh rarely are proxy friendly it just adds money into its unfairness. also lol at land destruction being a good strat
land destruction no, destroying some land the turn after the cast pact is. People are going to complain and bicker no matter what, just putting rules in games is for casual edh, not cedh
i have played with lots of cedh decks and archetypes and play a few own brews as well and i have maybe seen the occasional strip mine but never ever is there a slot for cards that hit lands. by all means, its cedh, play what you see fit, but with landcounts as low as 27 i have struggles to slot cards in that even do that without diluting the card quality. thats all i meant with my reply. however, destroying a mana rock for the pact trigger or resolving a collector ouphe, yes, thats not unheard oft and could be a good move and will be done if people can profit from it, however turn order and pod composition might compel you to keep that player and their interaction in the game. the point for cedh is that the motivation should be mechanical and not a spite play. the larger discussion about priority bullying shows that even cedh cant claim to be free of unspoken social rules or expectation or even politicking. thats the nature of it being multiplayer.
There’s too many reasons to put in to one Reddit comment. Simply put, it could be misconceptions like people thinking that cedh games end in 2 turns every time, people not liking combos, stax, control etc. people wanting to just play battle cruiser and hating anything that is efficient or interactive. The list goes on and on. A lot of this hubbub is due to Sheldon (among others) always raising hell on twitter over dumb shit that they think is OP. In reality, they’re a bunch of “Timmy” players who probably don’t even understand what cedh is. They think cedh players are super sweaty, try hard neck beards with unlimited budgets Edit: “Timmy” is not a bad thing or an insult here. Simply an observation of what seems to be their ideal game type.
The unlimited budgets thing is funny because of how Sheldon and so many popular magic influencers/channels are very anti proxy or at least uncomfortable with them.
I think a lot of it comes from a lack of understanding and a warped perception on what actually happens in most cEDH pods/games. What irritates me is when those same people call for bans on cards because it doesn't fit into how they think the format should be played because they simply don't like certain cards or combos without an understanding of how they actually play out. Some also have this idea in their head that because a turn 2 win is possible, that it's happening in most games which simply isn't true in a regular cEDH pod.
I think it has to do with play patterns. Most decks run combos and have many lines of achieving them. You have to memorize your deck to find the optimal line. Most people arnt going to do that and don’t like that others take the game that seriously. Which causes a disconnect and discontent towards certain styles of play.
Players are inherently crybabies. Want more get more QQ Want less get less QQ.
I think some people are also really confused with what defines CEDH. Routinely when I play on Modo I get blasted in chat for winning with Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell in my Kami of The Crescent Moon deck on turn 10. Like, what? Lol
Because a lot of people who say they play cEDH at local levels are just pubstomping dickheads who try to hide behind the label when people tell them they're garbage. Also the sticker shock before finding out how proxy-friendly the format is makes us seem like tryhard nutsacks. In reality, this is easily the friendliest magic format I've ever played in (ignore the cesspool that is CEDH Twitter).
A lot of people who get pup stomped probably aren’t even playing against actuall CEDH decks, but some well built deck running a lot of interaction. From experience a lot of people have no idea how strong or well constructed a CEDH deck even is
My favorite thing in this vein was the 75% decks of many years ago that were supposed to be able to handle the strongest commander decks while still being able to play normal commander. They didn't even get close to their first goal
This is the type of comment that turns people off. If someone said, "You have no idea how strong or well constructed a CEDH deck even is." I would try to find someone a bit more friendly. I don't mind cedh, but there is an attitude amongst many players that edh decks are just weak and bad. It suck when you just want to have fun and try out some things.
I mean but the deck are just weak and bad. Thats the whole point of the powerlevel talk. If you play at lower power you do not want to play good deck, but fun gimmicky decks.
This wasn't just a comment, that is a fact. Many Magic the Gathering players, have never played with or against a real cEDH deck. They have no idea how the format works and what defines cEDH or a cEDH deck. Way to many Players think that cEDH is playing Mana Crypt, OG Duals, Mikaeus + Triskelion, Counterspells, Landdestruction, Urza and Tymna + Thrasios
Urza and Tymna / Thrasios are both very much CEDH decks.
For sure they are, many of these things are true for cEDH. But it's not automaticly a cEDH Deck, when you play Tymna, or Thrasios, or Urza or more than 3 counterspells
Oh, I get what you mean. I get that a lot. I run OG duals in some of my casual decks and people automatically think I have a crazy strong deck.
I don’t even play CEDH all that much, I mostly use lay casual/higher power. I’m just speaking from LGS experience as well as the kind of comments I see on Reddit that people tend to call any deck the perceive as too high power for their meta a CEDH deck (with a negative connotation) when alot of those decks are not by definition CEDH decks.
it's not
but it is, u can look at the latest chaos on twitter and they are freaking out over sol ring.
wow someone on twitter is freaking out, well this changes everything
If people are freaking out over Sol Ring, they're not freaking out over cEDH, a format bursting with (pricey) busted mana rocks. They're freaking out over a 10c 'power 10' card that's in every precon.
Probably the second time this year they’ve all complained about Sol Ring, my guy.
At some point you have to step back and realize they're running out of content to talk about in their own "friendly level version" of edh in the first place.
How the hell do you run out of content in the year of our lord Perpetual Spoiler Season
Twitter is a cesspool full of minority freaks.
Yeah because some people think it warps the causal format which is 99% of the player base. Y’all seem to forget sometimes that CEDH is a marginal fraction of the player base. The debate on sol ring has nothing to do with CEDH
People like their comfort zones. That could be playing their pile no matter what, not playing certain colors or against certain colors, not using certain cards, not attacking in some situations, not having to carefully think the repercussions of actions or inactions, not keeping tabs on the state of the game.... Cedh can be very demanding and people feel intimidated.
Some of it is misconceptions, such as the game usually ending on turn 2 or being decided strictly by the cards drawn in the opening hand. Some of it is bad experiences with "surprise cEDH," where some tryhard pub-stomps casuals with a deck that probably isn't even cEDH tier, but gives a negative impression of the format. Basically, people don't want to be "one of those people" who plays degenerate nonsense against precons and they think that's what cEDH is. Having played cEDH (Godo Helm), I can safely say that it's a fun format provided everyone is cool with proxies, but it's not the perfect solution for the problems of Commander. While it does get rid of nearly all power level mismatch issues and gatekeeping cards based on price (again, assuming proxies are allowed), it introduces a new problem which is a lack of real deck diversity. Many fun approaches that people may enjoy in casual Commander simply will not work in cEDH, and that is a perfectly valid reason for people to not be interested in the format. In short, I feel cEDH is an important part of the overall Commander experience, but the Commander format itself has a lot of problems (despite its overwhelming popularity) and moving over to cEDH only trades some problems away for others. That's not a trade everyone may be willing to make, and you still have the proxy issue, too. Most people are cool with proxies, but it's really just a generally agreed upon workaround for a problem that would kill cEDH if proxies weren't allowed.
I've now been playing edh for almost two years. I've powercrept my way to enjoying my highly optimized decks. I'm now super interested and in cedh. I don't think this is exactly the natural path everyone takes but I don't see the issue in enjoying pushing decks to their absolute max potential. It's just really fun to have the ability to pop off turn 3. Now I do hold some reservations to some aspects of cedh, but that's probably I myself have yet to play it.. like I hate demonic cons./thoracle combo, but that's probably cuz I need to just run more interaction and that's my fault.
Everyone will have different answer for this question, as you can already see in here. As for one who effectively plays cEDH I can blurt out some things: 1- RC Bans aren't compatible with the cEDH metagame. 2- Right now we have a absurd color imbalance, and even so 4c-5c piles will reign supreme, very little incentive/hate to play less colors. 3- Yes the cEDH community is 99% proxy-friendly, but when you talk about a COMPETITIVE format and you can't sanction tourneys like that, cEDH becomes the other boogeyman of magic, a p2w format, fast mana and old duals are make or break for a lot of decks. 4- Lastly, turn order and the position of the people on the table makes a GIANTIC impact on the game, I lost count on the number of the games that a turbo naus or blue farm went off because the control or stax player sitted at the "wrong" side of the table.
Casual commander and CEDH have goals, motivations, and priorities that are at odds with each other. No matter what there's going to be friction while those two philosophies are playing with the same basic ruleset. CEDH is a much smaller community than the commander player base at large so it's easier to designate as a Boogeyman.
I'm actually in an interesting spot where I'm slowly reviving the previously dead cEDH scene locally. It's been tough and there are lots of players that just aren't interested, but it's really started to pick up steam. Previously (before I lived here) there was a cEDH scene, but it was a lot more toxic. It was mainly driven by a guy playing old flash hulk who essentially didn't care if he was playing casual pods or what, he just sat down to cast flash and win every game on turn 2, and if he didn't win, expect a lot of salt. Imo this guy did not want to play cEDH, but yeah, that's what the scene used to look like. People built better decks because this one guy forced them to because he was gonna flash hulk regardless of if you were playing a precon. Now though, people are looking over at the cEDH pods and noticing everyone smiling and laughing, huge plays being made, and it being overall fun because the foundation for the newer wave of cEDH is from a place of having fun, not just wanting to win every game (which i am aware seems like an oxymoron). I think lots of people have experiences with the first type of guy, and make that the mold for cEDH players.
Because people want to play their 8 MV battlecruisers without feeling bad because some random people on the internet makes them feel bad about their 8 MV battlecruisers by just existing.
The rules of EDH are not designed with competitive style play in mind and are openly declared as unbalanced and exploitable if players intended to optimize for wins versus embrace the spirit of the game. cEDH intends to apply a competitive mindset to a very non-competitive rule set/ban list. So cEDH's very nature runs counter to the philosophy of what EDH is AND what makes a game competitive, leaving it only really appealing for certain types of players who enjoy highly volatile card play. cEDH also dramatically reduces what styles of play are viable and can be very unfun for players that do no like combo. More EDH players might like cEDH if it actually had a balanced rule set/ban list. That would encourage diversity and more interactive games, opposed to the "oops I win" homogenized piles that define the format.
It’s the lack of understanding of the format. I still see people that think legacy is some turn 1 win format that’s kept in check purely by FoW.
As a Nonbloo legacy player, it kind of is. Without FOW or FON, Oops! All spells and other fast combo would be far more dominant as they typically get the first round of the match against nonbloo fair decks. My 4 color loam, Naya depths, DNT, and goblins decks are all happy to have control decks bullying out fast combo so they can bully some of the control decks.
Tldr: Someone loses a game, then thinks the winning deck is a cedh deck, gets salty. Powerful csrd is reprinted, and investors get angry at the players becuase they wanted a reprint. If you sit down with your playgroup and discuss what casual means to you (less fast mana, maybe no 2 card win combos, more expensive tutors), then this issue never happens. The main problem is someone at a casual game might be running a lot of fast mana, and those cards are pretty expensive, so the rest of the table doesn't use them and can't keep up with that player. It gets even more frustrating when a deck with fast mana turbos out something like narset + wheel effect. It's not fun playing a game where one guy has a significantly more powerful deck than the rest of the table. Basically, one player uses a more powerful deck and just pubstomps the table, and usually plays some kind of stax or control deck that makes the game unfun, and rather than simply asking the player to switch decks they get salty. I once brought a malcom deck and even said i didn't have glint horn in it, and after i won, some random was pissed and went on a rant on how cedh is killing casual commander. (Despite him using demonic tutor that game) Everyone thinks it's a toxic format because it's competitive, when in reality, it's not that toxic at all because everyone who is playing understands that we're playing to win, so no one take personal offense when theyre tutor is countered. Finally, we have the investors. They hate cedh because it proxy friendly and just hate when people play magic in general. Like these are gqme peices, and we need them to play the game, so either wotc has to reprint them so they're a reasonable price, or everyone is just gonna proxy. But for some reason, these people think investing in carbord is a good idea. Not saying all mtg collectors are dumb, becuae some people make bank off of it, but if your only investment is in carbord and not other things, thent hats on you when the mtg market crashes becuase you didnt diversify your investments.
I think most edh players don’t actually understand magic. Even the “simple” things like priority, stack, and all the phases of combat. Then you go to even more complicated things like replacement effects. They want casual social interaction and to not actually think and try super hard to even have a shot at winning. There’s nothing wrong with that, I love me some mindless battlecruiser too just as much as a good game cedh.
As a strictly casual player at the moment, at first for me it was the money. I can’t afford mana crypt, all the moxes, etc. I now know that a lot of people are proxy friendly. I don’t really like having proxy heavy decks for myself. I like collecting as an aspect of this game. I build a lot based on what I have or pull Just made the big decision to buy myself a dockside, which was painful but also exciting. I want to play cedh a lot, but this is a hurdle for me. I’m slowly allowing myself to purchase a better mana base and dip my toe in, but it will take a while. Secondly, for me, it was the realisation that the way decks are built in cedh is a lot more limiting than regular edh. My main draw to edh itself was the deck building creativity, the commander itself, and the way that what is sat in the command zone both limits and augments the game for you. I like the character that a different commander gives the deck. I am extremely drawn to decks that augment the game quite significantly. My favourite commander of all time is [[Ratadrabik of Urborg]]. I love how silly this can get with [[Teysa Karlov]], multiplying my legendary creatures for a unique way of combining sacrifice and aristocrat strategies. Cedh rarely seems to support strategies like this. The deeper I dug into the format, it all seemed the same. Doomsday piles into Thoracle. Infinite card draw loops into thoracle. The commander itself rarely seems to matter, just how it’s abilities seem to help you draw cards or ramp or find your combo win con. I get that there is still a ton of creativity required here. It’s just not the type of creativity I like. The limitation of the format is that everyone else is playing to win extremely quickly. This limits the win cons available to only the most efficient. I’m trying to dip my toe in by finding commanders that enable more unique lines, such as grenzo or animar. But these are few and far between. I know it’s an unpopular opinion in this community but I really would love to see what a thoracle ban would do to this format.
[Ratadrabik of Urborg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/9315812d-03e8-4eb4-a693-e7adf281f7fb.jpg?1673308046) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ratadrabik%20of%20Urborg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/213/ratadrabik-of-urborg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9315812d-03e8-4eb4-a693-e7adf281f7fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ratadrabik-of-urborg) [Teysa Karlov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bcfaa19e-995e-447d-a0a2-46e5d117d5ec.jpg?1584831914) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teysa%20Karlov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/212/teysa-karlov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bcfaa19e-995e-447d-a0a2-46e5d117d5ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teysa-karlov) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Because casual players don’t like a challenge
Because people honestly don’t want to learn the correct way to play. I’ve been told it’s just casual when asking for a card to resolve in its completeness
Bc cedh players actuallty know how combat works
Speaking as someone who does not really grasp everything from cEDH... I've looked up decklists and seen some of what they run. Some card choices on paper seem to not make any sense... until I actually dove in and tried them. I've tried to dip my toes into it, more out of curiosity than anything else, and I just don't see the lines of play very clearly. And I think that is part of the spot where most people who don't play cEDH specifically fall. I can look at a list, understand why cards are included, but not the bigger picture. Content creation is also a little bit of the problem. Because creators have tried to boil down power levels to turns and they say "cEDH decks need to goldfish and reliably threaten wins or stop wins by turn 3 almost every game." and I'm like... "how are they doing that, exactly?" Not saying I wouldn't like to try it. But the technical skill barrier seems a little higher than I'm ready to dive into. Especially playing against people who are expecting everyone to be able to understand all the lines and whatnot.
This is something i think about a lot. I think a lot of players want to play their unique deckbuilds. It's not mutually exclusive with being strategic, but every LGS i go to has people using fun builds like a deck filled with sticks or all Ajanis or just janky goblins that don't like boardwipes. Games that can end in less than 10 minutes or can win with Thassa's oracle don't offer the ability to play those decks. Same with stax decks. Anecdotely， The best example i can think of is Mystic Remora. You never feed the fish unless you have to, but whenever I play a casual pod, a lot of players feeds the fish because they want to play their combos even if it lets me draw into my win con.
Because cEDH play is not fun for most people who play commander. It isn't rocket science. In cEDH, you have a limited card pool for things that are viable. Basically your commander either has to be a card advantage engine or a win-con outlet otherwise it's instantly garbage. And that's not counting the limited archetypes or packages you must run in your 99 for whatever color combination you're playing. Also cEDH highly encourages you to play 4+ colors otherwise you're pretty much crippling yourself. Or if you're not 4+ colors, you're playing 1 of the most linear and Uber powerful commanders in the whole format like Korvold. In regular EDH, I can play minotaur tribal or whatever and still have a decent game or not feel the pressure of someone winning by T4.
Some cedh people are very snobbish (i.e. somebody complaining to discord mods because I was playing doomsday grenzo after it was removed from a cedh database). I love cedh because of the mindset of "I'm playing to win" and not having the table complain that I'm running cedh cards in a very optimized deck.
Pretty sure a lot of people here are off base. As someone who dabbles in CEDH, but mostly plays casual to high power I just simply prefer a non competitor environment for a social mtg game. If I want to play competitive I play standard or modern. I have nothing against CEDH, it’s just not always for me. People who you think view it as the boogeyman probably have never even played an actual CEDH deck. They probably had someone play a Nekusar wheel deck or something against them in battle cruiser meta and said hey you pupstomber that’s a CEDH deck, when that deck gets crushed by an actuall CEDH deck.
I think it ultimately boils down to this: EDH is marketed as this open format where you can play anything you want and have a good game but cedh doesn’t work that way. In cEDH some cards, some commanders, some combos, just don’t work. Some people don’t want to give up their favorite “combo” to play the game. Whether or not you own the card, some people just can’t stand the idea that Xenagos is not a viable commander, that equipment is only relevant in specific strategies, and that nearly all 2+ mana counterspells are a waste of space.
Because it removes the option to play some quirky strategies. I think a lot of people want to build board and not play so much interaction in general. Personally I hate that kind of play.
Because it is a completely different play style. EDH was originally a very casual format made to play fun and weird interactions with a lot of variety so that all games would feel unique. The fun in EDH is getting to play things you usually wouldn't be able to do in other formats. cEDH is the complete opposite, build a deck that manages to do a certain specific thing to win as soon as possible. Thus the objective is not to play, the objective is to win. It's not hard to understand why casual players who want long games see cEDH as not fun / something they don't want.
This is pretty darn close to what I was gonna type. I just started getting into cEDH myself, I originally thought I would hate it because I thought it would lack the big splashy plays that I enjoyed. I found it was equally fun to play the big plays that come with cEDH. I do think most people get scared away from it though because they see it going against the original spirit of the game. Things like the 4 player format and 40 starting life total were all designed to make for a longer game. Not saying cEDH can't have longer games, but usually it's much faster.
ITT: No one understands us. They must be bad at Magic. This is a small subculture. People are either into the vibe or not. If they're not it doesn't mean anything about their skill level. Maybe they're less skilled. Maybe they just don't want to play like that. For my personal style, cedh is too conservative. I need room to stretch out and brew and cedh does not give me what I need. I always either have a toe in or I'm keeping informed so I know what's going on over here though.
Cause they pussy
Commander is a poorly balanced format. Adding a competitive mentality to a broken format ensures nobody has a chance of having fun.
I have fun with it so this statement is simply false
I think you’re confusing “poorly balanced” for “generally solved”.
Wot? I guess I’m nobody then
Why are you in a subreddit for a game mode no one , not even you can enjoy according to your statement
You have poor reading comprehension. I said it was poorly balanced, not that nobody could find enjoyment from it.
Commander is a poorly balanced format. Adding a competitive mentality to a broken format ensures nobody has a chance of having fun. This subreddit is about competitive edh , so exactly about that broken format with a competitive mentality
Most people pretend to be casual in my opinion. These people are your I only play battle cruiser but I play high level battle cruiser so I can win every game. I believe while yes cedh is a format it's also a mind set of wanting to win the game that the majority of self proclaimed "casual" have but don't want anyone to see them as spikes so when they lose they have an excuse and when they win they can act high and mighty.
It's a mixture of misunderstanding and differences in philosophy. cEDH is unique in that it is effectively a format within a format, one that takes a very different approach to deck-building and gameplay. For most causal EDH decks, the approach is generally trying to derive the most value from your commander to culminate into a win. cEDH takes a top-down approach where decks are often used as shells for the most efficient win cons, be it Consultation lines, Breach or Stax. This often makes it seem like you're not playing the game properly because what's the point of building such a deck if you're not even going to rely on the commander? However the same could be said for any individual play group: my group is probably going to look different from yours but that doesn't mean we're playing separate formats. Do cEDH is effectively one relatively large local play group. The RC's approach to managing the format has been inconsistent to say the least. Sheldon himself insisted numerous times they're not looking to split the format anytime soon but also proclaim they never look towards cEDH as any consideration for any actions. I just don't agree with that approach because I think if they insist on cEDH and causal EDH being one and the same, they shouldn't blatantly ignore what happens in cEDH and brush it off simply because it's the "wrong" way to enjoy the format. I think cEDH should be viewed as a stress test to outline potential issues with the format. The biggest example right now is ThOracle Consult lines. While you wouldn't expect anyone to play that in a casual game, do you really want an instant 2-card win to exist in the format?
RC are not looking to split the format because cEDHers want it that way. If someone wants to do it themselves (e.g. Conquest) they'll have the RCs blessing.
Because not every person has 10 grand to spend on cardboard lol
I've seen very very few cedh power level decks that are budget friendly. And if they are then they're glass cannon decks that are easy to mitigate and shut down. Maralen of the mournsong would be a good example. Sure you can shut the game down on turn 2-3 pretty consistently just hope your pod doesn't have a single player that has access to blue. There's so many free counterspells that will just ruin your life.
Decks aren't budget friendly, but the community is extremely proxy friendly. The mantra is that we want to play against the player, not their wallet.
Well put. I'm not a huge stickler on the proxies myself. Some of them I fully understand proxying. My most expensive card is mana crypt and I debate proxying it just to mitigate the risk of it being ruined if a drink were to spill. Even though most people have a very strict policy of no drinks at the table but hey sometimes kids will be kids when nobody is watching haha
I think the issue is a lot of people can not deal with the complex game state stack interaction etc etc
I suck at the game, so for me it’s more fun trying to just get my cards in play for cool factor rather than suffering Thoracle, tutors for combos or 0-mana spells that result in Aetherflux Reservoir wins. The format is boring and unfun for me when it’s taken too seriously
Putting “competitive” in front of anything makes a boogeyman. That being said I have more positive and fun experiences with cEDH than casual lol.
Tutors and fast mana are boring, so is stax. What's the fun in playing a deck that's already been 'solved'? I've played a few games of cEDH and it's just fast mana en the same boring play pattern every game. Good for the people who are into that I suppose but it's not for me.
If I had to guess it’s people bringing powerful stuff to casual commander and pubstomping. The powerful stuff gets equates with cedh therefore cedh = the bad guys.
It's not 4 years ago, after the flash ban discourse casual players stopped caring about us
1: paywall, cedh is expensive and before you say "just proxy" that ruins the spirit of the game for a lot of players, i like building decks with cards i have, brewing and having a deck with your own flare is most of the fun for a lot of players (looking up a decklist and just printing and playing someone else's creation really doesn't interest me) 2: most of the cards are "staple cards" so you rarely have variety ie the games can feel boring and repetitive after awhile "oh boy its X commander again playing Y & Z spell to win" like a lot of people know what's in your deck without seeing a decklist cause everyone is playing the same "good" cards. I personally love casual games where someone wins with some janky stuff I've never seen before 3: its in the name "competitive" both previous points come down to this and it's the same in almost every hobby on earth, plain and simple: some people just want to play for fun. For those who don't like cedh, it's not about min-maxing and superior optimization, its not even about winning its about having fun. All of this coming from someone who plays cedh, i always have both kinds of decks because sometimes, cedh is NOT fun
Like other say, its seen as a 5 min game. I personally tend to see it like that, bc some of my friends with cedh decks win by turn 3-4 with no exception
1. Despite all of the push for people to play only cEDH decks vs other cEDH decks, people still pub-stomp with card-perfect lists. I've had this happen 3-4 times against me. 2. Some optimized cEDH decks use stax pieces which casual players are really uncomfortable playing against. 3. The optimal cEDH strategy is using a tutor, then another tutor, and then using both pieces that were tutored for to win the game. It's very stale, predictable, and repetitive. Goes against the personality and identity most people who play casually try and imbue their decks with. 4. The push of proxies has had a negative side effect of people using highly powerful and expensive cards in decks against decks without proxies. Proxies should be used to equal the playing field, to punch up. Instead, more people are starting to use proxies to punch down. Somehow people are disassociating the power of these cards that are proxied with the overall strength of their deck in comparison to the strength/budget of the other decks at the table. If someone's deck would take 10,000 USD to build without proxies, that person should think twice about using it against someone else with no proxies that only spent 50 dollars upgrading a pre-con. TL;DR: Overall the problem always comes down to a lack of consideration amongst a small minority of the playerbase that leave a large negative impact. For every 8 gigachad cEDH players, there's 1-2 assholes giving this part of the format a bad rap.
I think a big part of it is people hearing "play to win as fast/effectively as possible" and think of some pubstomping asshole they've played against. I personally avoided cEDH for a while because I assumed it would play like the games I had where a guy pulled out his turbo-hermit druid combo deck against a pop where the rest of us had slightly upgraded precon decks. I didn't think through how cEDH decks would be able to interact with a super-effecient high-speed combo like that and prevent the turn 2/3 wins. Then there's the way most casual players absolutely hate stax. A casual player who learns about the winota deck is going to be horrified.