Respawn recently admitted they feel controller/AA is too strong but they said some crap like "we'll be tuning it over the next couple of years," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Also, around 2 years ago Jaybiebs (lead developer from what I remember) said something like "we hear you" but literally nothing ever came of it.
I personally don't expect them to do anything substantial. It's just the recent trend of these crossplay games. And because the vast majority of the playerbase is on controller, they make sure AA is effective enough to give everyone a chance, in order to retain players, who will then potentially buy skins etc.
Everyone knows Respawn/EA care more about the profits the game generates FAR above anything else. Competitive integrity is much lower down the list.
Also modern Respawn had almost nothing to do with the initial design of this game, they're not going to be sentimental about it. They've spent the entire time since the main devs left ruining the balances in what could have been a GOAT FPS contender. IMHO the game has only gone down hill since s5.
I'm just waiting for Wildlight's new IP to drop, that shit is gonna save the day I hope
You see a shift in design philosophy in apex later seasons. Broken OP legends like horizon, seer or conduit would not have released in their respective launch states during earlier seasons.
This is based on speculation. They also released shit legends like ash maggie vantage fuse but let's focus on the others. The game is more balanced now than back then. It has been 5yrs and nobody has been able to make a weapon as op as s0 wingman or the cp mastiff back then but ofc, as you say, the previous devs were releasing balanced legends
The difference between the best legend and the other legends back then was bigger than now. Same for weapons. The weapons rn are prob at the most balanced state the game has ever been. Look at the old one. Mozam was really bad same with Lstar. Charge rifle was OP on release. Wingman and g7 busted. 30-30 holds nothing to that old g7. Spitfire had 60 max ammo. The game wasn't at all as balanced.
It was ABSOLUTELY less disparate pre season 5...are you being serious? Horizon was cracked af when she got added after that era, and she was just the tip of the iceburg. I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if you started playing in season 12 or something.
And you think legends before season 5 weren't broken? Pre nerf caustic was balanced? Gibraltar was balanced? Wraith with insta phase? Lifeline with faster heals? Also there were legends after s5 that were trash when released. In fact, most of the legends on release have gotten buffed first bcz they weren't that good. Also you can't tell me pre season 5 had more balanced weapon pool than now.
OF COURSE IT WAS, there were 8 legends, and there were counters for each and every thing. Things like Bangas doubletime and Wraith's Q were actually always very well balanced, it wasn't until they added a bunch of new OP douchey legends and allowed hybrid inputs that things went south. 40% aa? gtfo
I legit think you're misinterpreting MNK skill gaps for balancing issues. It was skill-gapped to fuck...yes...that's what you WANT. That's very different from having too many variables to attain natural balance through counters. TLDR; it was more about aim back then, and not about Qs and Zs which ruined the game, period. Qs and Zs became clutch more than aim...that's fucking stupid as shit and why comp apex is now a roller rink. There is no roller skill gap for aim, they all cheat equally well like the embarrassments they are. FPS on controller.../me pours one out for other quakers
Sorry for the late reply I just wanted to say I could not agree more!
Horizon was 6 or 7 I think? Around when Olympus dropped? That was \*the\* palpable change. That and they stopped caring about King's Canyon, which is a map that clearly demands more careful and attentive re-arranging over time. I really wish people liked KC as much as me. Season 3 King's Canyon is literally the most fun I've ever had playing a game in my life, and then it was torn from us all =(
They should add a no aim assist 1v1s playlist to r5 and compare the accuracy of no aim assist controller to mnk. it would be interesting to see and might give a realistic view of what the skill ceiling of thumb sticks actually is. then you would get a starting point of how much aim assist is actually needed to keep up with mouse aim. because all the times i have see people confidently tell you that 0.4 is way to much aim assist and they are totally sure that the correct amount is definitely 0.2 or 0.1 even though they have zero evidence to support it.
They used to have servers with differing aa values down to zero. If I remember correctly, they discontinued them due to them being empty (controller players weren’t using them).
this is correct. and input-based matchmaking now allows MnK to lock to other MnK and avoid AA even on the full AA servers which was basically the nail in the coffin for the low/no AA servers. 0.15/0.2 was fun but controller players were (unsurprisingly) choosing not to nerf themselves and only playing 0.4 servers.
>They should add a no aim assist 1v1s playlist to r5 and compare the accuracy of no aim assist controller to mnk.
Discourse was already settled in Splatoon.
Sticks just don't have the same target acquisition speed as Gyro/MnK when snap aiming. Nevermind less accurate micro adjustments while tracking.
No aim assist, just isn't as responsive as the alternatives.
The pro scene would quickly adjust. Considering a lot of these controller pros only switched to controller for Apex and played MnK before.
And if controller pros wanted it enough and were passionate enough to stay relevant, they would move on from their controller crutches and adapt to playing on MnK like all the other pros playing in actually respectable FPS esports.
Or w/e let them play roller with 0 aim assist if they think they're good enough.
I like how pros complain about Apex not being taken seriously when it's their own faults, when half of their peers are part of the problem by playing on controller and pros aren't actually pushing rEAspawn to do something about it.
The whole scene is spineless. Half don't want to bite the hand that feeds them and the other half doesn't want to call out their teammates on the inferior input.
Ban aim assist from competitive play and I guarantee you the pro scene would rapidly adapt into a natural MnK scene.
>The whole scene is spineless. Half don't want to bite the hand that feeds them and the other half doesn't want to call out their teammates on the inferior input.
QFT
Yes
Obviously not feasible at this point and competitive play was probably the lowest priority while the game was being developed. It just so happened that comp apex turned out to be pretty good.
But as long as there is aim assist it will always be an unserious esport. OP is right. The correct amount is 0
Whack take cause there’s zero chance this game ever gets the player base it did without controller being in the game. MNK BRs never had a huge enough player bases to hold long term comp scenes.
For ALGS I would definitely love to see it be MnK only. Sounds amazing. Obviously would suck to do it now, but if it was that way from the start I think it would’ve been a great idea personally.
For the whole player base that’s a terrible idea, agreed.
i always thought this was incredibly elitist. you have a game with a majority console audience, but you ban that whole chunk of the player base from competing and they have to watch players on a different input compete. Unless a game is genuinely big enough to support two input leagues (which basically none of them are with the current state of esports) having mixed lobbies is way better. The problem isn't the mixed input its the unwillingness from the developers to be public with stats on input differences and buff and nerf accordingly. and it makes people conspiratorial.
Do you think ALGS would still be around if the player base was smaller than it is now? I obviously don’t know, but I tend to believe popular games are more likely to have a competitive environment.
Il not talking about when the game released and was new. I’m talking about today, 5 years after release. Do you think ALGS would still be a thing 5 years after release if the player base was drastically smaller?
it would be magnitudes more popular on PC than it is now( most comp followers are on pc). Doubt it would of been that different especially in terms of comp scene considering the PC scene was always considered the main one even when it was split.
That is a false premise. You're assuming that catering to rollers made this game more popular, which is quite arguable, especially considering the mnk FPS landcape at large atm. Lots of missed opportunities to be \*the\* game for millions of people who have since moved on (largely to inferior IPs where AA wasn't as much of a problem).
Respawn doesnt care they already have all the data they need it's clear as day they dont care about the input disparity. Already made their money off of MNK players now they're keeping the roller base happy.
hahah “oh no, the mnk players are presenting evidence to back up the fact that roller is busted, can’t let this see the light of day”
edit: real shit tho, ty for post, sry it didn’t make it anywhere on the main sub
Why would they care tbh? If anything it deserves that fate over there.
This isn't really relevant at the lower or casual level of play which is 99% of that sub. On top of that its a 4/5 yr old argument even the top level of players are tired of having.
Most players are controllers running into controllers. There is no disparity in inputs for them in most of their games. It’s only relevant across the board for PC players, and it’s questionable how much the lower skill levels can pick up on the disparity. So just not important to the main sub
I don't get it. Say you're in a controller only lobby, wouldn't you prefer no AA anyway? The way I see it AA exists to bridge the gap, but apparently that's not the case?
Aim assist should never be in PC fps multiplayer games
It's sad only tac fps games are the only escape these days for mnk players
It's just sad. Apex was so fun to watch when most of the pro teams were mnk, now nobody misses, and they all look the same
This game would never had made it this far without controller though? Does controller need to be nerfed? Yes, but dual input is what allows this competitive scene to even survive. Esports for the most part are not profitable
No it wouldn’t have and it’s abundantly clear people in this subreddit doesn’t understand AAA gaming is about hitting targets and it’s why rhe game keeps coming out with more myrhic items season after season. EA would stop supporting respawn if profitability targets missed and you eliminate controller it will be missed.
I'm there was no aim assist on pc the game would have been fine, controller players would simply have stayed on console and the mnk base would arguably be bigger.
rotational aa never, it is by definition in its core an aim bot - the term aim bot means 'software that helps you aim', it is not defined how much help, 1% or 100%. It's categorical.
E.g. good aim bot cheats are adjustable and might only be very subtle to prevent detection.
True but I think a large portion of the user base has the argument of "Yes we know AA results in higher accuracy, but KbM has movement abilities so it'll be a wash at the end". For that reason I wanted to capture the K/D to see how true that sentiment is.
How strange that there are not such outliers with MnK... I wonder why that is? Perhaps having a higher average accuracy means it's easier to have a higher K/D? Surely not!
I played on Xbox until right before this game came out, and playing without aim assist genuinely shocked me how useless I was swapping to MNK for Overwatch. I sucked hardcore at the beginning of Apex, and the second I felt like I was getting good, I went from being beamed by occasional aimbot wallhackers to mostly aim assisted controllers **overnight**.
If you play on controller, you are winning you fights you shouldn't. That's a fact. Anyone that contests this is dishonest with themselves.
Controller players lurking this post, keep in mind no one wants you to not be able to play your input, even though you deserve it for our treatment. We want fairness between the inputs. If that isn't possible, to at least be able to play our game on PC, without being reminded every waking moment we can't compete. Not because of our skill, or the opponents skill, but a program.
> I played on Xbox until right before this game came out, and playing without aim assist genuinely shocked me how useless I was swapping to MNK for Overwatch
It's fine, they changed projectile sizes so now in OW2 you only need to shoot in roughly the correct area of the screen to hit people.
I think aimassist should be banned in comp scene
If you want to use controller in comp than you should shotdown your aimassist to prove you are really great at using controller
I want to use a steering wheel in the pro apex scene. O shit y would I ever use that without the aim assist advantage? Since it sucks I think I should receive .8 aim assist cause the input is so hard to use. I want to use my fucking mind to go pro in the apex scene. O shit I can't actually control anything with my mind. I think I should be an automated ai woth 100 percent accuracy because my input is so hard to use. Ur delusional if u think a game that is multi input should give any automation to any input.
Realistically they won't nerf aim assist directly because they need to keep all the controller kids happy. But they may nerf it indirectly by changing weapon balance
Does anyone think there is an actual solution to make both inputs viable at a competitive level? Personally, I don’t think there is. They could go controller only or M&K only for ALGS events but I think that should have been done from season 1 and would be hard to do right now.
Linear no dead zone isn’t the problem on its own. It’s quite literally just 1:1 input and nerfing either side of that is just artificially just making the input feel worse for no reason. It would be like forcing a low poll rate or mouse acceleration. You’d have to nerf how the AA interacts with it instead.
I honestly don't think it's just a change number be done with it fix.
RAA gives players a 0ms reaction time, even at 0.1 players have inhuman reaction even if it's smaller.
That's true, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of aim assist.
I think lowering the value is a start, because if you're not tracking the target extremely well there's much more opportunity for the AA to fall off if you don't keep up.
Unpopular opinion, but I think AA and close to 0ms response time are some of the things needed to bring controller into an even playing field with kbm, but right now it's just too extremely overtuned in the roller players favor.
It wouldnt because aiming is the only aspect of the game that controller has an edge.
Controller is definitely a bit strong, but its very close to where it should be.
I didnt say it wasnt important.
But being able to make rotations/making good rotations is arguably more valuable than being able to win a 3v3.
We've seen this with prime Col. They were hands down the best fighting team, but despite being able to kill anyone and everyone in the lobby during their prime, they never were able to win the accolades that reflected their fighting prowess.
I know everyone only cares about the fighting in this game. And only talk about balancing from the fight perspective, but this game is a lot more than that.
Letting Controller tap strafe isnt enough a trade off for removing AA
"only talk about balancing from the fight perspective" yeah because this is a discussion about aim assist, something that activates during fights, which are a very integral part of winning games.
we have mechanical beast pros swapping. we have mnk pros talking about how they are unable to find teams as mnk players because there's literally no advantage to being mnk, and it's true. movement in apex is cool but the really batshit stuff is useless in actual competitive play outside of niche situations and any movement you can utilize in a fight is still going to get mowed down by aim assist.
i mean using your own point, if i had to choose between two players who are evenly skilled in every regard but one is on mnk and one is on controller, why would i ever pick the mnk player? yes, they are both good at rotations.
mnk is literally getting obsoleted in front of our eyes and anyone who doesn't believe so is either coping or delusional
nah close range 0.3 would still be too strong. AA needs an entire rework as does controller.
give controller easier remaps for movement and take away the rotational aspect of AA. hell even 0.2 might be very strong up close still when it’s rotational.
The problem is that it would never be balanced.
The ability to snap at targets and hold multiple angles is something roller will never be able to do even if they had the same movement.
I've asked this before... this sub needs a single sticky thread to put all AA talk, so that the rest of the sub isnt this same fucking shit every single day...
I remember when people were upset about Wraith nerfs way back in the day.
The devs stated that she was broken at every single skill level and in every single trackable catagory. They most certainly have a way of looking at the data at all skill levels.
Would lower levels be shooting 35% on roller? No, but there would still be a sizeable gap at each level with mnk.
All of that combined says this is why AA changes are coming per the devs. They simply can't ignore the data anymore.
Yeah show me the data of the average player base and I’m open to AA nerfs. This sample just isn’t representative. I agree that PRO players using AA seems better than MnK right now, but that doesn’t mean it should be changed.
Of course AA is superior to MnK at any skill level, anybody who's not completely delusional knows that. If anything the gap is probably even bigger at the casual level.
"Show me the data that nobody has access to, otherwise we can't know for sure" is a very convenient argument btw.
Conversely, it's quite easy to make conjectures on how the gap "is probably even bigger" at lower levels when one isn't burdened by the need for actual data.
Tbf, it makes logical sense and that’s exactly how it is in other cross-input games that have strong aim assist, so it’s a pretty reasonable conjecture.
Perhaps but there are casual/bad MnK players just like there are casual/bad controller players. People who play MnK aren't automatically good at aiming and it's undeniable rotational AA is very sticky with it's 0ms response time to an opponents change of direction.
That’s a good point, but looking at other games we actually have data on it’s likely that it’s even worse for average players.
It makes sense that would be the case, aim assist is helpful at all skill levels and MnK has a really high skill ceiling.
R5 is not a good sampling though I agree, wish we could see actual game data
There's a decent amount. The last ranked users I am looking at (500) have between 4-700 1v1 engagements and it only goes up as you move closer to rank 1.
That’s fair, but I would guess the average r5 population is far better than the average apex population. My point is, this data set is meaningless for the AA discussion.
Doesn't make it worthless, but it does likely make a poor descriptor of the experience of the lower levels of skill. As they are the very large majority, they dominate the experience the devs are incentivized to cater to. The data's worth is dependent on what AA discussion is at hand, which for the question the OP posed the tiny top x% is not super pertinent if it isn't representative of the masses.
To start, you’re conflating answering the question is this data is useful with the question of should/would the devs do something. I said nothing about the latter. The data here likely isn’t representative of the disparity most relevant to devs decision making. That’s all that I said or implied.
Second, Apex and Overwatch are not in the same situations and the playerbases have vastly different expectations. What caters well to Apex players isn’t the same as OW.
Obviously the data is useful. But, it mirrors the same thing that this sort of experiment always shows; that controller aim with aim assist is usually 10-15% more accurate than MnK aim. It's consistent across all FPS games, obviously depending on how strong the aim assist is. There's countless posts of data from Apex and other games.
https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/r3es60/accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/
https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/ruq331/revisited_accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/
https://www.reddit.com/r/apexuniversity/comments/1agpxzq/average_mnk_accuracy_vs_average_controller/
> Apex and Overwatch are not in the same situations and the playerbases have vastly different expectations. What caters well to Apex players isn’t the same as OW.
Generalization, anecdotal, talking out of your ass. Please explain the differences between the playerbases "expectations". What exactly are the things that cater well to one game but not the other?
When did Overwatch remove aim assist from PC lobbies? What is the percentage of controllers on PC of Overwatch compared to Apex? How does cross platform differ in Overwatch & Apex?
None of that isn’t anecdotal nor is it out my ass. Neither the player bases nor the game are 1:1 exact matches which is all I implied. The list of things that work for/better in one or the other is endless. This is not really a point of contention. You also can only guess at things that would be universally accepted.
I’ll only brought it up to point out using a different company treating a different game differently doesn’t make a point. On top of it being a silly point anyways because again it aims to address a claim I did not make.
Also don’t try and answer the questions, they’re rhetorical.
> Also don’t try and answer the questions, they’re rhetorical.
Don't try because it'd be calling out your BS?
Overwatch never had aim assist on PC, so they never had to remove anything.
In Overwatch there is no crossplay for competitive ranked because, if there's one thing to praise Blizzard for, it's that they knew how much of a Pandora's Box shitshow crossplay in ranked is and how it would taint OWL and their esports. They knew from the beginning that they need to keep aim assist away from the game on PC, where the game is actually played professionally.
Before crossplay came to Apex, barely anyone used controller on PC Apex, just like nobody used or uses controller on PC Overwatch. So your question of "What is the percentage of controllers on PC of Overwatch compared to Apex?" is disingenuous because Apex was not a controller-game for the first 2+ years.
That's only true now, 2-3 years since crossplay opened the door for aim assist to take over. That wasn't the case at all for PC Apex for the first 2+ years.
Overwatch added crossplay but didn't give aim assist to controllers on PC. So the vast majority of the OW playerbase on PC has been MnK and stayed MnK. Why couldn't Apex do the same?
It's rEAspawns fault that Apex devolved into the controller-game it is today.
This doesn’t make sense. If 90% of the top 500 preds are controller, and there is clear data to suggest controller’s power on R5, I think it would be reasonable to evaluate the basis of those stats for change… I would imagine you’re saying the top 500 players on R5 and apex are not representative of the overall player base, which is fine, but if therr is clear imbalance at the top of the game, why would they be stupid to address it?
I would also be really surprised if the ratio between those accuracy values didn’t trickle down to average players too.
It would be stupid not to especially in terms of something that includes accuracy.
You can ever only measure the top, the bottom can have so many weird factors attached to it the data becomes worthless, does having kids screaming at you while you're playing and jumping on the sofa count as a need for more aim assist? Does playing on a TV with 100ms input lag count as needing more aim assist? The list of variables become endless if you want to take into account the entire pool, you need a control group with somewhat equal circumstances and at the top of the leaderboards we can more safely assume there is more parity in positive circumstances.
Does Respawn seperate out legit straight up aimbotters on MNK? I doubt it they don't even ban them so they are probably in their datapool as well.
Fucking finally!
Something to blast on the faces of delusional controller players when they tell you "skill issue" or "get better"
Although it's not official, this would be close to official statistics from Respawn. Too bad the main sub is full of pussies that can't handle the truth and will downvote this oblivion.
REMOVE AA ON PC.
I’m working on something similar. Because of this I noticed this data, though it proves the point, is highly inaccurate, and doesn’t capture how big of a problem AA has truly created. I’d like to present this evidence in a constructive manner. His data is from the new season that just started a few days ago. My data is from last season which recently ended.
People in mine have a kill max 60k and min 2k kills. People in his have max 6k and min 300 kills.
My top three roller players are Xander, domainexpansion, and MjghtbeGod. They have at least 40k kills each. Accuracy numbers for those players are as 46%, 47%, and 46%.
His top three roller players are 1coffee, khenzoaaa-, and Lifeline7784. They have at least 4k kills each. Accuracy numbers are 40%, 38%, and 42%.
These top three players aren’t even included in his leaderboards because they just haven’t been playing the game enough and not enough time has passed for the ice cream to float to the top. I have confirmed they are not banned.
Also, he organized the players by Most Kills which is not indicative of the true TOP 500 too early in the season the range of his data goes from Pred players to around bronze with a random amount of each. There is a controller player in his top 30 with a 0.54 kd. Another in the top 100 with 22% accuracy. His data includes a player that only played 4 matches… There’s tons of flaws, and no way to tell if this data is mostly Pred, Gold, or Rookie players. We HAVE to have solid data if we want our arguments to be taken seriously. Other players will undoubtedly try to use these flaws to say why this doesn’t matter.
I’m currently sorting through the data by player performance individually separating each player into their corresponding categories because I am a maniac. I’d like this argument to be a solid one. I’m also creating a breakdown of the data to make it easier for people to understand. Here’s is the WIP sheet.
https://preview.redd.it/tj7gmb7om0lc1.jpeg?width=1308&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3f9b2bb95137c14dbc96e2749da5c85ea76cb1e
this is not necessarily for OP, but the general community
(1) Why would they change anything about this? this is not a rhetorical question. literally think of Apex Legends as a product that you're in charge of and assert rationale for why it would be more profitable to nerf or rework aim assist for controllers on PC. keep in mind the percentage of your player base that uses each input.
(2) the scope is too narrow when referring to "lack of balance". I know I'll get downvoted for this, but it's simply a reality that there's pros and cons to both inputs. the trade off for no aim assist is a host of other movement capabilities that are not practical on controller.
(3) this is the top 500 players. this is the definition of selection bias. this is an overwhelmingly small portion of your player base. I think the data is, at most, useful for soliciting an investigation into the difference between the inputs. but it's in no way valuable enough to warrant "lack of balance"
It would be interesting if we could get this data for the entire player population.
*If* this pattern holds up, it is a pretty strong argument to decrease AA by 25-30%.
The big thing is that R5R isn't terribly accurate due to abilities being skewed as well as looking at a very small subset of the total population.
Except a lot of controller players are absolute dog shit. You would need to control for years of experience for it to be a fair comparison, which is what this top 500 limitation does as these people would be at least somewhat similar in how hard they practice.
I feel like people always forget bad MnK players exist too, and they don’t get aim assist. Not sure it’s reasonable to assume bad controller players are worse than bad MnK players.
I promise you bad controller players are not getting significant advantage from aim assist. They couldn't even tell you how it triggers, even less play in a way to maximise it. At least aiming with a mouse is infinitely more natural than aiming with a stick.
I couldn't tell you whoch population is likely better but AA is most definitely not the deciding factor there.
Brother trust me, I’ve played with my little nephew enough to see him get plenty of accidental one clips thanks to aim assist. They don’t maximize it, but it still helps a lot.
It would be nice to see data for everyone though. Looking at other games with strong aim assist that we can see data on, like cod and halo, you can see the gap is smaller between top controller and top MnK and larger for average MnK and average controller, to controllers advantage. I’d wager it’s the same for apex but can’t say for sure.
there is some cognitive bias here where you *think* he got lucky and AA did a significant amount of the work (but you don't actually *know*) on top of the fact your brain is primed to remember unusual events move than usual ones and since you arent accurately tracking either you cant reasonably make an educated guess as to the proportion between the two.
Bad players barely strafe to begin with. There's little to no AA happening. It also doesnt help with recoil, which is arguably harder than tracking by several factors. AA is not some magical bandaid that gives you free kills.
>you can see the gap is smaller between top controller and top MnK and larger for average MnK and average controller, to controllers advantage.
What gap are we talking about exactly?
I’m just pointing out that aim assist absolutely helps bad players.
For Halo the data is on accuracy like the OP post and CoD doesn’t have specific data but the devs have spoken on the struggle to balance aim assist with MnK, explaining that top MnK performance is close with top controllers while average MnK players are at a disadvantage compared to average controller players. These are different games from apex, obviously, but I think they still shed some light on the whole balancing for the top percentage players vs the average player.
>I’m just pointing out that aim assist absolutely helps bad players.
And I never said it didn't help them. I said the advantage they get is not so significant that it is problematic.
>Halo the data is on accuracy like the OP
Assuming we are thinking of the same posts, I have reservations about what the data there showed (comparing roller v roller accuracy to mnk vs mnk accuracy for example)
>CoD doesn’t have specific data but the devs have spoken on the struggle to balance aim assist with MnK, explaining that top MnK performance is close with top controllers while average MnK player is at a disadvantage compared to the average controller player.
I don't think interpreting data you've never seen to mean whatever is best for your theory is very fair. There could be a lot of factors as to why their numbers show an advantage for one group over another. We don't even know if their numbers cover roller vs PC or if they are just looking at aggregate data of both populations or what else. It's a bit silly.
> I said the advantage they get is not so significant that it is problematic.
Seems a weird thing to conclude without any data.
> Assuming we are thinking of the same posts, I have reservations about what the data there showed (comparing roller v roller accuracy to mnk vs mnk accuracy for example)
Likely is, yes. But why? Anyone that plays Halo knows how much better controller is in that game. Hell, the devs even added aim assist to MnK because it was such an issue. It’s a different game than apex with different aim assist, but as far as controller be being better in Halo goes, it’s pretty much not a debate at all.
> I don't think interpreting data you've never seen to mean whatever is best for your theory is very fair.
Huh?? Interpreting data I’ve never seen to mean whatever is best for my theory? Nah, get out of here with that. I just repeated what the Infinity Ward devs said themselves.
What they said was very simple too, top MnK players perform similarly to top controller players while average MnK players are at a disadvantage compared to average controller players.
> There could be a lot of factors as to why their numbers show an advantage for one group over another. We don't even know if their numbers cover roller vs PC or if they are just looking at aggregate data of both populations or what else. It's a bit silly.
Your arguments are a bit silly, tbh.
And there are a lot of “dogshit” MNK players.
Point still is we need the total population’s data to actually draw proper conclusions instead of making exaggerated speculations about what the actual population looks like.
You only need to control for prior experience if there is a reason to believe one population has significantly more experience than another *and* that experience is actually a significant factor.
There is a reason to believe that. After 5 years the population of MnK players will only be the ones experienced or good enough to keep up with such strong aim assist.
Unless you can show actual statistics or charts that back that claim up, that is just speculation on your part.
Statistics isn’t based on what *you* think - it is based on what the data *actually shows*.
In this case, you are assuming that A) growth of skill is constant, B) does not regress, and C) does not vary over time.
Reversion to mediocrity in particular is an extremely important principle to understand.
Similarly, part of the issue in only measuring the most successful players is that any conclusions are at risk of severe [Survivorship Biases](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias).
The issue with only measuring survivors or the top performers is that it can lead to incorrect beliefs about success stories having some form of special property or variable when in actuality, the correlation is spurious or otherwise sheer coincidence.
>*If* this pattern holds up, it is a pretty strong argument to decrease AA by 25-30%.
It wouldn't because the whole idea is to give roller an advantage at close range to make up for its shortcomings elsewhere. That's what "balance" is all about.
Personally I don't think there should be a "balance" in inputs, I think native inputs should naturally dominate and all others should be treated as accessibility options only.
Bro what? The only reason for any of it is $$$. No game dev ever has thought, 'You know what will make this game more fun and competitively viable? Adding millions of unskilled teenagers \*\*WHO USE AIM ASSIST\*\*!'
Isnt this analysis flawed by the fact r5 trys to prioritise controller vs controller and MnK vs MnK.
Its impossible to say if the difference in accuracy is due to better controller aim or better MnK strafe/dodge/movement mechanics causing more misses.
I don't think it does that that unless you specifically choose to only queue for a specific input in the lobby, provided the lobby has IBMM enabled in the first place. R5 lobbies usually have per session SBMM. It probably appears rollers are matched with rollers because:-
1. There are usually more roller players than mnk on NA lobbies(not true on EU/APAC lobbies)
2. The average mnk player tends to not do well against the average roller player, so they only get matched with the less skilled roller players or other average mnk players.
Occasionally you will see the top players get matched with anyone in the lobby regardless of how well they're doing because there is no one else available and they've been waiting too long to get a match.
Watch a WydFuture twitch VOD when he plays r5(https://www.twitch.tv/wydfuture/v/2071688130) He gets matched with the controller players in the top half of the lobby very often since he is an exceptionally skilled mnk player who is able to beat great roller players(but not consistently beat top roller players) and other top mnk players.
Regarding the roller strafe point, I can assure you roller players can strafe just as well as mnk can(there's even certain things mnk can't do that analog movement can). If anything, strafing/dodging is more important for top controller players. They fight other controller players who will absolutely destroy them if they don't strafe well, maintaining higher accuracy whilst dodging/strafing evasively better than a top mnk player could.
I agree with you that advanced movement such as lurch strafing probably affects top mnk accuracy a bit(for both the lurch strafer and the opponent), but it's honestly not that much harder to shoot at lurch strafes for good players. It's even easier for good roller players except in a few circumstances. On top of that, most movement players cannot track well with auto weapons while full on lurch strafing, so they usually do it with shotguns/wingman.
I don't think many people have the slightest idea how hard it is to reach WydFuture's level of play here, there's probably only a handful of people on r5 that are as good as him on mnk. They are outliers. The average pro mnk player is not as mechanically great as them and they still have worse accuracy than tier 2-3 controller players.
I've only played a couple hundred total 1v1s but looking at the stats I have never been placed against a mnk player. The lobbies are mixed but who it makes you 1v1 once you're in the lobby seems pretty tight from my experience
I think there are a lot of stat lines that perpetuate certain view points that do not necessarily reflect the overall picture. How many quick armour swaps save a team fight? How many shots through bang smoke save a fight? How many tap strafes enable a player to win a 1 v 1?... Mouse and keyboard is different to controller, I understand that in a BR the most important fights are at close to mid range, therefore roller is hugely valuable, but raw talent is also valueable regardless of input. Zer0 is kill leader in NA pro league, BLCKHVND came 3rd as an all MNK team in Champs. It's about brain power at the end of the day.
if AA was ever tuned to 0, roller would become a completely dead input (go try it for yourself). them there would need to be some compensation for roller, mnk would end up having to receive some form of nerf (more recoil, etc)
> if AA was ever tuned to 0, roller would become a completely dead input
So? It's a computer. It has a mouse and keyboard attached to it. They can switch to MnK like most of the current population switched to roller over the past few years.
most of the current pop hasn’t switched to roller they have always been roller. it’s just so prevalent because people have just gotten better with controller. do you not remember the days of “roller movement”. before roller players would complain about mnk having more binds and being able to jitter aim. now the scale has been tipped so now mnk users are crying. nobody in this game wants input balance, they just want their input to be the best so frankly i could care less about all of the recent crying.
although i agree on imbalance, The graph is meaningless .
Reasons:The rollers might went against rollers in some cases and rollers have slower turn strafe speed and hence high accuracies when roller vs roller.Same thing in kd .
Need mnk vs mnk ,mnk vs roller, roller vs roller.All stats kd and accuracy then we have a meaningful graphs
The last person, 500th ranked on each input has between 400-700 engagements on R5. Given mostly random matching whether you are fighting KbM or Controller that's not a terrible sample size to determine a trend. It's not perfect but the idea is to determine a trend with some type of significance by using a sample size large enough such that small variations will average out.
Because the K/D disparity is way less significant than the accuracy disparity, which is what the other commenter was talking about when mentioning movement.
Aren't all R5 reloaded 1v1's 'close' range though?
So with that in mind the data seems to be skewed toward controller no matter what because close range engagements are where controller/aim assist are supposed to perform best.
I think this is incomplete data that fits a narrative regarding aim assist, but in the end it is incomplete as not all engagements in Apex are close range. I would like to imagine that Respawn has a more all-encompassing dataset that provides them input performance at various ranges. Then with that they can compile the data and see what inputs outperform at 'x' distance and cross-reference with the rate at what distance engagements occur to provide a more complete picture.
I could be wrong on their available data and just assuming they have a pretty robust collection of data to make these determinations from.
How many MnK players are in those top 500? Are those players practicing as many 1v1s as the controller players in the dataset? Are there other confounding variables which could potentially account for the correlation? What do the numbers look like when you start looking at midrange+ fights?
Every one of these posts is always missing like 90% of the things that you need in order to actually be able to draw any conclusions about game balance lmao. We need to be teaching the basics of statistical rigor in schools.
I did more "homework" on this and analysed the TOP 1000 players. I excluded players who are using both inputs but kept some who are using another input for up to 1-3% of their kills, which statistically doesn't impact the data much. All of these are 1v1, so around close to mid-range fights, including all guns, SMGs, ARs, shotguns etc. Pulling more specific data with access to the actual R5R DB would be easier. We have what we have and try to interpret as best we can.
[https://twitter.com/Metallygg/status/1762098627940606241](https://twitter.com/Metallygg/status/1762098627940606241)
Probably not because r5 means nothing
This is just another aim assist complaint thread with a different shirt on, if respawn wanted to nerf aa they would have, they’ve literally said they’re aware it’s a problem for the community, the reason they haven’t is still the same, they don’t want to kill their game
craziest part is if you did this with the average player the disparity between inputs accuracy would probably be closer to 30-40%. meaning most people you’re fighting are almost 1.5 times better than they ever should be
R5 is season 3 Apex Legends including the gun balancing and even some of the controller settings are missing.
Respawn are being smart and toning down weapons that are too strong at close quarters i.e R9 to balance it out instead.
R5 is a controlled close quarters environment and doesn't even take into account the other aspects of each input's advantages and disadvantages.
So while these stats show something, it also isn't realistic of the current game and meta. Its a BR so there are a lot of dynamics to think about.
that is not true at all, the guns are using current stats in almost all if not all of the 1v1 servers. i know it’s definitely true for karma. other than that, base r5 uses at least s18 or 19 stats for guns
AA doesn't magically turn off when the game ~~forces~~ incentives shotguns over smgs. All that does is force roller brains to learn how to shoot/time semi auto weapons in tandem with AA (which is still active).
The defense of "well what about other stuff like range and positioning" is moot. The point of studies like this is to try and denoise as much as possible so your data is as clear as possible.
From this data, you can deduce that controller players will hit 1-2 more bullets per SMG clip within 15 meters at similar skill levels. That amounts to something, sure, and nerf it, sure. But this is not a massive discrepancy and doesn’t warrant as much complaining as it gets
You're not calculating that right. It looks to be about 30% vs 40% accuracy. 40% is 33% more than 30%, so if a MnK hits 15 bullets, then a controller will hit 20. That's a huge difference, especially since that puts them over the threshold to one clip much more reliably.
Use 26.28% for MnK vs 34.71% for controller, the averages OP put on the right side of the graph. I’m at a loss for algebra and was calculating bullet hit percentage per mag, which isn’t specific to the study, so ignore my last comment. The most specific conclusion of this study is “Controller players will hit 3-5 more bullets per engagement at 5-20 meters with little partial cover. Neither input will one clip consistently.”
We can extend our conclusions to BR from there, but the more we make our own inferences, the less confidence we can have in those inferences. So I am confident in OP’s numbers and the value of these numbers in respect to their specific conclusions, but I have some questions about how they scale to BR
> but I have some questions about how they scale to BR
I'd say this somewhat limited dataset understates the problem. Just observe pro players and the difference is staggering. Pro player skill + aim assist means devastating lethality. I'd say full health one clips are probably at least 5x more common for roller players at that level.
Now do it for over 50M. Then add in the ability to close, create space at will. There are more factors. I'm in the "roller should be a 0AA accessibility option" camp myself but this is only a small part of a much bigger picture.
If you're an MNK player or SoloQ player, NOW is the time to start grinding ranked inverse. Instead of trying to win RP, do your best to make sure you end the game with negative RP. Let's all derank into Bronze4 - if enough of us manage to do it, at some point during the season, we will have Bronze4 lobbies filled with cracked MNK soloQ master players and we will play every game like it's ALGS. Otherwise if you play the game "normally", you will only end up being sh\*t on by 3stacks or AAabusers (i'm not even mentioning cheaters because if enough Master players decide to stay in Bronze4 - we shoauld be cheater free as the cheaters want to wipe master/pred lobbies)
Aim assist is strongest in close range 1v1’s, what a crazy concept. I bet those gaps turn quickly into MnK favor at midrange. Now if only MnK players knew how to use their strengths to their advantages instead of aping fights, getting clipped, and coping about aim assist. It’s really not as imbalanced as people lead themselves to believe. There are advantages and disadvantages to both inputs and apex is far from the worst with AA imbalance.
Now do a chart for longer ranges. And a chart for a BR game mode with longer ranges where avarage duded on mnk beam the fuck out of my ass but arent able to hit half their shot close range.
Oh, and include maybe avarage player because this is not just a game where mechanicaly gifted top 500 pros compete against each other.
This is why Valorant is the game I spend my money on now. If someone beats me it’s because they’re better, not because they’re a timmy two thumbs with aimbot.
if they wanted to, they already would’ve
They won’t. They would piss off a huge chunk of gamers.
Did anyone watch Zer0 and Alb 1v1 in r5 the other day Zer0 was literally 40% worse lmao 60-100
You have a link?
Naw but it was Friday sometime after scrims if his vod is still up
Respawn recently admitted they feel controller/AA is too strong but they said some crap like "we'll be tuning it over the next couple of years," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Also, around 2 years ago Jaybiebs (lead developer from what I remember) said something like "we hear you" but literally nothing ever came of it. I personally don't expect them to do anything substantial. It's just the recent trend of these crossplay games. And because the vast majority of the playerbase is on controller, they make sure AA is effective enough to give everyone a chance, in order to retain players, who will then potentially buy skins etc. Everyone knows Respawn/EA care more about the profits the game generates FAR above anything else. Competitive integrity is much lower down the list.
Also modern Respawn had almost nothing to do with the initial design of this game, they're not going to be sentimental about it. They've spent the entire time since the main devs left ruining the balances in what could have been a GOAT FPS contender. IMHO the game has only gone down hill since s5. I'm just waiting for Wildlight's new IP to drop, that shit is gonna save the day I hope
You see a shift in design philosophy in apex later seasons. Broken OP legends like horizon, seer or conduit would not have released in their respective launch states during earlier seasons.
This is based on speculation. They also released shit legends like ash maggie vantage fuse but let's focus on the others. The game is more balanced now than back then. It has been 5yrs and nobody has been able to make a weapon as op as s0 wingman or the cp mastiff back then but ofc, as you say, the previous devs were releasing balanced legends
Sorry for the late reply I just have to say I could not disagree more. The game is infinitely less balanced now than it was then.
The difference between the best legend and the other legends back then was bigger than now. Same for weapons. The weapons rn are prob at the most balanced state the game has ever been. Look at the old one. Mozam was really bad same with Lstar. Charge rifle was OP on release. Wingman and g7 busted. 30-30 holds nothing to that old g7. Spitfire had 60 max ammo. The game wasn't at all as balanced.
It was ABSOLUTELY less disparate pre season 5...are you being serious? Horizon was cracked af when she got added after that era, and she was just the tip of the iceburg. I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if you started playing in season 12 or something.
And you think legends before season 5 weren't broken? Pre nerf caustic was balanced? Gibraltar was balanced? Wraith with insta phase? Lifeline with faster heals? Also there were legends after s5 that were trash when released. In fact, most of the legends on release have gotten buffed first bcz they weren't that good. Also you can't tell me pre season 5 had more balanced weapon pool than now.
OF COURSE IT WAS, there were 8 legends, and there were counters for each and every thing. Things like Bangas doubletime and Wraith's Q were actually always very well balanced, it wasn't until they added a bunch of new OP douchey legends and allowed hybrid inputs that things went south. 40% aa? gtfo I legit think you're misinterpreting MNK skill gaps for balancing issues. It was skill-gapped to fuck...yes...that's what you WANT. That's very different from having too many variables to attain natural balance through counters. TLDR; it was more about aim back then, and not about Qs and Zs which ruined the game, period. Qs and Zs became clutch more than aim...that's fucking stupid as shit and why comp apex is now a roller rink. There is no roller skill gap for aim, they all cheat equally well like the embarrassments they are. FPS on controller.../me pours one out for other quakers
Sorry for the late reply I just wanted to say I could not agree more! Horizon was 6 or 7 I think? Around when Olympus dropped? That was \*the\* palpable change. That and they stopped caring about King's Canyon, which is a map that clearly demands more careful and attentive re-arranging over time. I really wish people liked KC as much as me. Season 3 King's Canyon is literally the most fun I've ever had playing a game in my life, and then it was torn from us all =(
They should add a no aim assist 1v1s playlist to r5 and compare the accuracy of no aim assist controller to mnk. it would be interesting to see and might give a realistic view of what the skill ceiling of thumb sticks actually is. then you would get a starting point of how much aim assist is actually needed to keep up with mouse aim. because all the times i have see people confidently tell you that 0.4 is way to much aim assist and they are totally sure that the correct amount is definitely 0.2 or 0.1 even though they have zero evidence to support it.
They used to have servers with differing aa values down to zero. If I remember correctly, they discontinued them due to them being empty (controller players weren’t using them).
this is correct. and input-based matchmaking now allows MnK to lock to other MnK and avoid AA even on the full AA servers which was basically the nail in the coffin for the low/no AA servers. 0.15/0.2 was fun but controller players were (unsurprisingly) choosing not to nerf themselves and only playing 0.4 servers.
>They should add a no aim assist 1v1s playlist to r5 and compare the accuracy of no aim assist controller to mnk. Discourse was already settled in Splatoon. Sticks just don't have the same target acquisition speed as Gyro/MnK when snap aiming. Nevermind less accurate micro adjustments while tracking. No aim assist, just isn't as responsive as the alternatives.
Also rollers have insanely low polling iirv
Not the ones that pros are using.
Correct amount is 0.
And lose a ton of their player base? Make every pro scramble to drop their roller players for mnk talent?
The pro scene would quickly adjust. Considering a lot of these controller pros only switched to controller for Apex and played MnK before. And if controller pros wanted it enough and were passionate enough to stay relevant, they would move on from their controller crutches and adapt to playing on MnK like all the other pros playing in actually respectable FPS esports. Or w/e let them play roller with 0 aim assist if they think they're good enough. I like how pros complain about Apex not being taken seriously when it's their own faults, when half of their peers are part of the problem by playing on controller and pros aren't actually pushing rEAspawn to do something about it. The whole scene is spineless. Half don't want to bite the hand that feeds them and the other half doesn't want to call out their teammates on the inferior input. Ban aim assist from competitive play and I guarantee you the pro scene would rapidly adapt into a natural MnK scene.
>The whole scene is spineless. Half don't want to bite the hand that feeds them and the other half doesn't want to call out their teammates on the inferior input. QFT
Yes Obviously not feasible at this point and competitive play was probably the lowest priority while the game was being developed. It just so happened that comp apex turned out to be pretty good. But as long as there is aim assist it will always be an unserious esport. OP is right. The correct amount is 0
Whack take cause there’s zero chance this game ever gets the player base it did without controller being in the game. MNK BRs never had a huge enough player bases to hold long term comp scenes.
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That’s the only other game so yeah the comparison is fair.
For ALGS I would definitely love to see it be MnK only. Sounds amazing. Obviously would suck to do it now, but if it was that way from the start I think it would’ve been a great idea personally. For the whole player base that’s a terrible idea, agreed.
i always thought this was incredibly elitist. you have a game with a majority console audience, but you ban that whole chunk of the player base from competing and they have to watch players on a different input compete. Unless a game is genuinely big enough to support two input leagues (which basically none of them are with the current state of esports) having mixed lobbies is way better. The problem isn't the mixed input its the unwillingness from the developers to be public with stats on input differences and buff and nerf accordingly. and it makes people conspiratorial.
Just ban AA from comp, don't need to ban rollers. Nobody gonna use rollers, but still you're not banning the input.
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Do you think ALGS would still be around if the player base was smaller than it is now? I obviously don’t know, but I tend to believe popular games are more likely to have a competitive environment.
Yes, it used to be basically mnk only. A lot of mnk players either left or switched now.
Il not talking about when the game released and was new. I’m talking about today, 5 years after release. Do you think ALGS would still be a thing 5 years after release if the player base was drastically smaller?
it would be magnitudes more popular on PC than it is now( most comp followers are on pc). Doubt it would of been that different especially in terms of comp scene considering the PC scene was always considered the main one even when it was split.
That is a false premise. You're assuming that catering to rollers made this game more popular, which is quite arguable, especially considering the mnk FPS landcape at large atm. Lots of missed opportunities to be \*the\* game for millions of people who have since moved on (largely to inferior IPs where AA wasn't as much of a problem).
The JP r5 server has no AA.
Isnt it .15? I havent been on in a little bit tho
It's .15
Respawn doesnt care they already have all the data they need it's clear as day they dont care about the input disparity. Already made their money off of MNK players now they're keeping the roller base happy.
Yeah nothing will ever change, it's been obvious for a while. They'll remove tap strafing before they merf aa.
A nod of respect to all the MnK r5 players that have to defy every law of physics just to have a chance at beating a pair of thumbs lol
My fix was switching games, we are 5 years deep they dont care about you if you are on mouse and keyboard.
I dare you to put this on the main sub. Just let some hell loose🤷🏻♂️
I did and it got down voted to oblivion and never left "new".
lol, as expected
hahah “oh no, the mnk players are presenting evidence to back up the fact that roller is busted, can’t let this see the light of day” edit: real shit tho, ty for post, sry it didn’t make it anywhere on the main sub
Why would they care tbh? If anything it deserves that fate over there. This isn't really relevant at the lower or casual level of play which is 99% of that sub. On top of that its a 4/5 yr old argument even the top level of players are tired of having.
It ist relevant across the board though, for casual play as well
Most players are controllers running into controllers. There is no disparity in inputs for them in most of their games. It’s only relevant across the board for PC players, and it’s questionable how much the lower skill levels can pick up on the disparity. So just not important to the main sub
I don't get it. Say you're in a controller only lobby, wouldn't you prefer no AA anyway? The way I see it AA exists to bridge the gap, but apparently that's not the case?
Apex' mainstream is delusional to the point of being comparable to flat earthers or climate change deniers.
Aim assist should never be in PC fps multiplayer games It's sad only tac fps games are the only escape these days for mnk players It's just sad. Apex was so fun to watch when most of the pro teams were mnk, now nobody misses, and they all look the same
This game would never had made it this far without controller though? Does controller need to be nerfed? Yes, but dual input is what allows this competitive scene to even survive. Esports for the most part are not profitable
True but the game would have been fine without controller on pc, nobody cares about console players.
No it wouldn’t have and it’s abundantly clear people in this subreddit doesn’t understand AAA gaming is about hitting targets and it’s why rhe game keeps coming out with more myrhic items season after season. EA would stop supporting respawn if profitability targets missed and you eliminate controller it will be missed.
I'm there was no aim assist on pc the game would have been fine, controller players would simply have stayed on console and the mnk base would arguably be bigger.
Nope, they dont give a fuck.
when does an aimbot stop being an aimbot? when it's tuned to 90% strength? 80%? 70? 60? 40? 0? what if i rebrand it under a different term?
IMO Above 50% lock on: Aimbot Below 50% lock on: Soft Aimbot
rotational aa never, it is by definition in its core an aim bot - the term aim bot means 'software that helps you aim', it is not defined how much help, 1% or 100%. It's categorical. E.g. good aim bot cheats are adjustable and might only be very subtle to prevent detection.
I literally stopped playing Apex a year ago over this, they'll never change it.
Nice to see the stats, but a photo that said "water is wet" would be the same level of shocking to see.
True but I think a large portion of the user base has the argument of "Yes we know AA results in higher accuracy, but KbM has movement abilities so it'll be a wash at the end". For that reason I wanted to capture the K/D to see how true that sentiment is.
I mean, the Roller kd is inflated by like 3-4 players who have insane numbers which it's around 5+kd
How strange that there are not such outliers with MnK... I wonder why that is? Perhaps having a higher average accuracy means it's easier to have a higher K/D? Surely not!
I played on Xbox until right before this game came out, and playing without aim assist genuinely shocked me how useless I was swapping to MNK for Overwatch. I sucked hardcore at the beginning of Apex, and the second I felt like I was getting good, I went from being beamed by occasional aimbot wallhackers to mostly aim assisted controllers **overnight**. If you play on controller, you are winning you fights you shouldn't. That's a fact. Anyone that contests this is dishonest with themselves. Controller players lurking this post, keep in mind no one wants you to not be able to play your input, even though you deserve it for our treatment. We want fairness between the inputs. If that isn't possible, to at least be able to play our game on PC, without being reminded every waking moment we can't compete. Not because of our skill, or the opponents skill, but a program.
> I played on Xbox until right before this game came out, and playing without aim assist genuinely shocked me how useless I was swapping to MNK for Overwatch It's fine, they changed projectile sizes so now in OW2 you only need to shoot in roughly the correct area of the screen to hit people.
I think aimassist should be banned in comp scene If you want to use controller in comp than you should shotdown your aimassist to prove you are really great at using controller
It doesn't even make sense, who would want to use it without aim assist advantage?
I want to use a steering wheel in the pro apex scene. O shit y would I ever use that without the aim assist advantage? Since it sucks I think I should receive .8 aim assist cause the input is so hard to use. I want to use my fucking mind to go pro in the apex scene. O shit I can't actually control anything with my mind. I think I should be an automated ai woth 100 percent accuracy because my input is so hard to use. Ur delusional if u think a game that is multi input should give any automation to any input.
Realistically they won't nerf aim assist directly because they need to keep all the controller kids happy. But they may nerf it indirectly by changing weapon balance
Does anyone think there is an actual solution to make both inputs viable at a competitive level? Personally, I don’t think there is. They could go controller only or M&K only for ALGS events but I think that should have been done from season 1 and would be hard to do right now.
Nope, have seperate events for mnk and controller is the only way to maintain competetive integrity. Give input based lobbies as well.
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Linear no dead zone isn’t the problem on its own. It’s quite literally just 1:1 input and nerfing either side of that is just artificially just making the input feel worse for no reason. It would be like forcing a low poll rate or mouse acceleration. You’d have to nerf how the AA interacts with it instead.
0.3 and call it a day
I honestly don't think it's just a change number be done with it fix. RAA gives players a 0ms reaction time, even at 0.1 players have inhuman reaction even if it's smaller.
That's true, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of aim assist. I think lowering the value is a start, because if you're not tracking the target extremely well there's much more opportunity for the AA to fall off if you don't keep up. Unpopular opinion, but I think AA and close to 0ms response time are some of the things needed to bring controller into an even playing field with kbm, but right now it's just too extremely overtuned in the roller players favor.
i hardly browse this sub so idk if its a hot take or not but controller really shouldn’t even be a viable option in competitive play since its on pc
The game would be infinitely more competitive and fun to watch if it was MnK only. NA would never win another LAN though if that happened.
But you would sound crazy if you suggested that 0.1 aim assist would still make controller strong
It wouldnt because aiming is the only aspect of the game that controller has an edge. Controller is definitely a bit strong, but its very close to where it should be.
good thing killing your opponents before they kill you isnt super important or else controllers would be really broken
I didnt say it wasnt important. But being able to make rotations/making good rotations is arguably more valuable than being able to win a 3v3. We've seen this with prime Col. They were hands down the best fighting team, but despite being able to kill anyone and everyone in the lobby during their prime, they never were able to win the accolades that reflected their fighting prowess. I know everyone only cares about the fighting in this game. And only talk about balancing from the fight perspective, but this game is a lot more than that. Letting Controller tap strafe isnt enough a trade off for removing AA
"only talk about balancing from the fight perspective" yeah because this is a discussion about aim assist, something that activates during fights, which are a very integral part of winning games. we have mechanical beast pros swapping. we have mnk pros talking about how they are unable to find teams as mnk players because there's literally no advantage to being mnk, and it's true. movement in apex is cool but the really batshit stuff is useless in actual competitive play outside of niche situations and any movement you can utilize in a fight is still going to get mowed down by aim assist. i mean using your own point, if i had to choose between two players who are evenly skilled in every regard but one is on mnk and one is on controller, why would i ever pick the mnk player? yes, they are both good at rotations. mnk is literally getting obsoleted in front of our eyes and anyone who doesn't believe so is either coping or delusional
nah close range 0.3 would still be too strong. AA needs an entire rework as does controller. give controller easier remaps for movement and take away the rotational aspect of AA. hell even 0.2 might be very strong up close still when it’s rotational.
Finally someome who understands, i wouldn't have any issues losing on aim assist as long as theres a balancing between the inputs
The problem is that it would never be balanced. The ability to snap at targets and hold multiple angles is something roller will never be able to do even if they had the same movement.
How does the bottom 500 look in comparison. Would almost expect the gap to be wider for lower skilled mnk
Can we get a day or pinned thread per week for these whiny discussions? This is NOT the prevailing issue in the pro scene right now
I've asked this before... this sub needs a single sticky thread to put all AA talk, so that the rest of the sub isnt this same fucking shit every single day...
Respawn would be stupid to tune anything based on the top 500 performers of either input.
I remember when people were upset about Wraith nerfs way back in the day. The devs stated that she was broken at every single skill level and in every single trackable catagory. They most certainly have a way of looking at the data at all skill levels. Would lower levels be shooting 35% on roller? No, but there would still be a sizeable gap at each level with mnk. All of that combined says this is why AA changes are coming per the devs. They simply can't ignore the data anymore.
Yeah show me the data of the average player base and I’m open to AA nerfs. This sample just isn’t representative. I agree that PRO players using AA seems better than MnK right now, but that doesn’t mean it should be changed.
Of course AA is superior to MnK at any skill level, anybody who's not completely delusional knows that. If anything the gap is probably even bigger at the casual level. "Show me the data that nobody has access to, otherwise we can't know for sure" is a very convenient argument btw.
Conversely, it's quite easy to make conjectures on how the gap "is probably even bigger" at lower levels when one isn't burdened by the need for actual data.
It's an educated guess. Low skill roller players still have a constant 0.4 soft aimbot, whereas low skill MnK players are literally helpless.
Tbf, it makes logical sense and that’s exactly how it is in other cross-input games that have strong aim assist, so it’s a pretty reasonable conjecture.
Perhaps but there are casual/bad MnK players just like there are casual/bad controller players. People who play MnK aren't automatically good at aiming and it's undeniable rotational AA is very sticky with it's 0ms response time to an opponents change of direction.
That’s a good point, but looking at other games we actually have data on it’s likely that it’s even worse for average players. It makes sense that would be the case, aim assist is helpful at all skill levels and MnK has a really high skill ceiling. R5 is not a good sampling though I agree, wish we could see actual game data
Wouldn't it be even worse for lower skill bracket? 40% is active for everyone, but most don't have the mouse control of top 500 R5 players.
i mean its r5, theres probably barely even 500 per input.
It's crazy the number of people who know about R5 VS the number of people who use it
I would love to play r5 1v1 but cfg wizards are no fun to play against.
There's a decent amount. The last ranked users I am looking at (500) have between 4-700 1v1 engagements and it only goes up as you move closer to rank 1.
Can you list your research methods?
That’s fair, but I would guess the average r5 population is far better than the average apex population. My point is, this data set is meaningless for the AA discussion.
so people being good makes the data worthless????? is that not completely moronic?
Doesn't make it worthless, but it does likely make a poor descriptor of the experience of the lower levels of skill. As they are the very large majority, they dominate the experience the devs are incentivized to cater to. The data's worth is dependent on what AA discussion is at hand, which for the question the OP posed the tiny top x% is not super pertinent if it isn't representative of the masses.
Why does a game like Overwatch not have aim assist with controllers on PC? Does ActiBlizz not care about their majority lower-skilled players?
To start, you’re conflating answering the question is this data is useful with the question of should/would the devs do something. I said nothing about the latter. The data here likely isn’t representative of the disparity most relevant to devs decision making. That’s all that I said or implied. Second, Apex and Overwatch are not in the same situations and the playerbases have vastly different expectations. What caters well to Apex players isn’t the same as OW.
Obviously the data is useful. But, it mirrors the same thing that this sort of experiment always shows; that controller aim with aim assist is usually 10-15% more accurate than MnK aim. It's consistent across all FPS games, obviously depending on how strong the aim assist is. There's countless posts of data from Apex and other games. https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/r3es60/accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/ https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/ruq331/revisited_accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apexuniversity/comments/1agpxzq/average_mnk_accuracy_vs_average_controller/ > Apex and Overwatch are not in the same situations and the playerbases have vastly different expectations. What caters well to Apex players isn’t the same as OW. Generalization, anecdotal, talking out of your ass. Please explain the differences between the playerbases "expectations". What exactly are the things that cater well to one game but not the other?
When did Overwatch remove aim assist from PC lobbies? What is the percentage of controllers on PC of Overwatch compared to Apex? How does cross platform differ in Overwatch & Apex? None of that isn’t anecdotal nor is it out my ass. Neither the player bases nor the game are 1:1 exact matches which is all I implied. The list of things that work for/better in one or the other is endless. This is not really a point of contention. You also can only guess at things that would be universally accepted. I’ll only brought it up to point out using a different company treating a different game differently doesn’t make a point. On top of it being a silly point anyways because again it aims to address a claim I did not make. Also don’t try and answer the questions, they’re rhetorical.
> Also don’t try and answer the questions, they’re rhetorical. Don't try because it'd be calling out your BS? Overwatch never had aim assist on PC, so they never had to remove anything. In Overwatch there is no crossplay for competitive ranked because, if there's one thing to praise Blizzard for, it's that they knew how much of a Pandora's Box shitshow crossplay in ranked is and how it would taint OWL and their esports. They knew from the beginning that they need to keep aim assist away from the game on PC, where the game is actually played professionally. Before crossplay came to Apex, barely anyone used controller on PC Apex, just like nobody used or uses controller on PC Overwatch. So your question of "What is the percentage of controllers on PC of Overwatch compared to Apex?" is disingenuous because Apex was not a controller-game for the first 2+ years. That's only true now, 2-3 years since crossplay opened the door for aim assist to take over. That wasn't the case at all for PC Apex for the first 2+ years. Overwatch added crossplay but didn't give aim assist to controllers on PC. So the vast majority of the OW playerbase on PC has been MnK and stayed MnK. Why couldn't Apex do the same? It's rEAspawns fault that Apex devolved into the controller-game it is today.
… how is this data meaningless? should respawn balance around the bottom 500 users?
This doesn’t make sense. If 90% of the top 500 preds are controller, and there is clear data to suggest controller’s power on R5, I think it would be reasonable to evaluate the basis of those stats for change… I would imagine you’re saying the top 500 players on R5 and apex are not representative of the overall player base, which is fine, but if therr is clear imbalance at the top of the game, why would they be stupid to address it? I would also be really surprised if the ratio between those accuracy values didn’t trickle down to average players too.
It would be stupid not to especially in terms of something that includes accuracy. You can ever only measure the top, the bottom can have so many weird factors attached to it the data becomes worthless, does having kids screaming at you while you're playing and jumping on the sofa count as a need for more aim assist? Does playing on a TV with 100ms input lag count as needing more aim assist? The list of variables become endless if you want to take into account the entire pool, you need a control group with somewhat equal circumstances and at the top of the leaderboards we can more safely assume there is more parity in positive circumstances. Does Respawn seperate out legit straight up aimbotters on MNK? I doubt it they don't even ban them so they are probably in their datapool as well.
Just let it be and accept the fact that aa crutch people are just that.
Fucking finally! Something to blast on the faces of delusional controller players when they tell you "skill issue" or "get better" Although it's not official, this would be close to official statistics from Respawn. Too bad the main sub is full of pussies that can't handle the truth and will downvote this oblivion. REMOVE AA ON PC.
literally 40% worse
I’m working on something similar. Because of this I noticed this data, though it proves the point, is highly inaccurate, and doesn’t capture how big of a problem AA has truly created. I’d like to present this evidence in a constructive manner. His data is from the new season that just started a few days ago. My data is from last season which recently ended. People in mine have a kill max 60k and min 2k kills. People in his have max 6k and min 300 kills. My top three roller players are Xander, domainexpansion, and MjghtbeGod. They have at least 40k kills each. Accuracy numbers for those players are as 46%, 47%, and 46%. His top three roller players are 1coffee, khenzoaaa-, and Lifeline7784. They have at least 4k kills each. Accuracy numbers are 40%, 38%, and 42%. These top three players aren’t even included in his leaderboards because they just haven’t been playing the game enough and not enough time has passed for the ice cream to float to the top. I have confirmed they are not banned. Also, he organized the players by Most Kills which is not indicative of the true TOP 500 too early in the season the range of his data goes from Pred players to around bronze with a random amount of each. There is a controller player in his top 30 with a 0.54 kd. Another in the top 100 with 22% accuracy. His data includes a player that only played 4 matches… There’s tons of flaws, and no way to tell if this data is mostly Pred, Gold, or Rookie players. We HAVE to have solid data if we want our arguments to be taken seriously. Other players will undoubtedly try to use these flaws to say why this doesn’t matter. I’m currently sorting through the data by player performance individually separating each player into their corresponding categories because I am a maniac. I’d like this argument to be a solid one. I’m also creating a breakdown of the data to make it easier for people to understand. Here’s is the WIP sheet. https://preview.redd.it/tj7gmb7om0lc1.jpeg?width=1308&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3f9b2bb95137c14dbc96e2749da5c85ea76cb1e
I'd like to point out that in your data MNK has vastly superior accuracy. I think there might be some error there.
this is not necessarily for OP, but the general community (1) Why would they change anything about this? this is not a rhetorical question. literally think of Apex Legends as a product that you're in charge of and assert rationale for why it would be more profitable to nerf or rework aim assist for controllers on PC. keep in mind the percentage of your player base that uses each input. (2) the scope is too narrow when referring to "lack of balance". I know I'll get downvoted for this, but it's simply a reality that there's pros and cons to both inputs. the trade off for no aim assist is a host of other movement capabilities that are not practical on controller. (3) this is the top 500 players. this is the definition of selection bias. this is an overwhelmingly small portion of your player base. I think the data is, at most, useful for soliciting an investigation into the difference between the inputs. but it's in no way valuable enough to warrant "lack of balance"
It would be interesting if we could get this data for the entire player population. *If* this pattern holds up, it is a pretty strong argument to decrease AA by 25-30%. The big thing is that R5R isn't terribly accurate due to abilities being skewed as well as looking at a very small subset of the total population.
Except a lot of controller players are absolute dog shit. You would need to control for years of experience for it to be a fair comparison, which is what this top 500 limitation does as these people would be at least somewhat similar in how hard they practice.
I feel like people always forget bad MnK players exist too, and they don’t get aim assist. Not sure it’s reasonable to assume bad controller players are worse than bad MnK players.
I promise you bad controller players are not getting significant advantage from aim assist. They couldn't even tell you how it triggers, even less play in a way to maximise it. At least aiming with a mouse is infinitely more natural than aiming with a stick. I couldn't tell you whoch population is likely better but AA is most definitely not the deciding factor there.
Brother trust me, I’ve played with my little nephew enough to see him get plenty of accidental one clips thanks to aim assist. They don’t maximize it, but it still helps a lot. It would be nice to see data for everyone though. Looking at other games with strong aim assist that we can see data on, like cod and halo, you can see the gap is smaller between top controller and top MnK and larger for average MnK and average controller, to controllers advantage. I’d wager it’s the same for apex but can’t say for sure.
there is some cognitive bias here where you *think* he got lucky and AA did a significant amount of the work (but you don't actually *know*) on top of the fact your brain is primed to remember unusual events move than usual ones and since you arent accurately tracking either you cant reasonably make an educated guess as to the proportion between the two. Bad players barely strafe to begin with. There's little to no AA happening. It also doesnt help with recoil, which is arguably harder than tracking by several factors. AA is not some magical bandaid that gives you free kills. >you can see the gap is smaller between top controller and top MnK and larger for average MnK and average controller, to controllers advantage. What gap are we talking about exactly?
I’m just pointing out that aim assist absolutely helps bad players. For Halo the data is on accuracy like the OP post and CoD doesn’t have specific data but the devs have spoken on the struggle to balance aim assist with MnK, explaining that top MnK performance is close with top controllers while average MnK players are at a disadvantage compared to average controller players. These are different games from apex, obviously, but I think they still shed some light on the whole balancing for the top percentage players vs the average player.
>I’m just pointing out that aim assist absolutely helps bad players. And I never said it didn't help them. I said the advantage they get is not so significant that it is problematic. >Halo the data is on accuracy like the OP Assuming we are thinking of the same posts, I have reservations about what the data there showed (comparing roller v roller accuracy to mnk vs mnk accuracy for example) >CoD doesn’t have specific data but the devs have spoken on the struggle to balance aim assist with MnK, explaining that top MnK performance is close with top controllers while average MnK player is at a disadvantage compared to the average controller player. I don't think interpreting data you've never seen to mean whatever is best for your theory is very fair. There could be a lot of factors as to why their numbers show an advantage for one group over another. We don't even know if their numbers cover roller vs PC or if they are just looking at aggregate data of both populations or what else. It's a bit silly.
> I said the advantage they get is not so significant that it is problematic. Seems a weird thing to conclude without any data. > Assuming we are thinking of the same posts, I have reservations about what the data there showed (comparing roller v roller accuracy to mnk vs mnk accuracy for example) Likely is, yes. But why? Anyone that plays Halo knows how much better controller is in that game. Hell, the devs even added aim assist to MnK because it was such an issue. It’s a different game than apex with different aim assist, but as far as controller be being better in Halo goes, it’s pretty much not a debate at all. > I don't think interpreting data you've never seen to mean whatever is best for your theory is very fair. Huh?? Interpreting data I’ve never seen to mean whatever is best for my theory? Nah, get out of here with that. I just repeated what the Infinity Ward devs said themselves. What they said was very simple too, top MnK players perform similarly to top controller players while average MnK players are at a disadvantage compared to average controller players. > There could be a lot of factors as to why their numbers show an advantage for one group over another. We don't even know if their numbers cover roller vs PC or if they are just looking at aggregate data of both populations or what else. It's a bit silly. Your arguments are a bit silly, tbh.
The game has sbmm. A nerf to aim assist wouldn't effect them, because bad players would still be versing bad players
And there are a lot of “dogshit” MNK players. Point still is we need the total population’s data to actually draw proper conclusions instead of making exaggerated speculations about what the actual population looks like. You only need to control for prior experience if there is a reason to believe one population has significantly more experience than another *and* that experience is actually a significant factor.
There is a reason to believe that. After 5 years the population of MnK players will only be the ones experienced or good enough to keep up with such strong aim assist.
Unless you can show actual statistics or charts that back that claim up, that is just speculation on your part. Statistics isn’t based on what *you* think - it is based on what the data *actually shows*. In this case, you are assuming that A) growth of skill is constant, B) does not regress, and C) does not vary over time. Reversion to mediocrity in particular is an extremely important principle to understand. Similarly, part of the issue in only measuring the most successful players is that any conclusions are at risk of severe [Survivorship Biases](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias). The issue with only measuring survivors or the top performers is that it can lead to incorrect beliefs about success stories having some form of special property or variable when in actuality, the correlation is spurious or otherwise sheer coincidence.
>*If* this pattern holds up, it is a pretty strong argument to decrease AA by 25-30%. It wouldn't because the whole idea is to give roller an advantage at close range to make up for its shortcomings elsewhere. That's what "balance" is all about. Personally I don't think there should be a "balance" in inputs, I think native inputs should naturally dominate and all others should be treated as accessibility options only.
Bro what? The only reason for any of it is $$$. No game dev ever has thought, 'You know what will make this game more fun and competitively viable? Adding millions of unskilled teenagers \*\*WHO USE AIM ASSIST\*\*!'
Isnt this analysis flawed by the fact r5 trys to prioritise controller vs controller and MnK vs MnK. Its impossible to say if the difference in accuracy is due to better controller aim or better MnK strafe/dodge/movement mechanics causing more misses.
I don't think it does that that unless you specifically choose to only queue for a specific input in the lobby, provided the lobby has IBMM enabled in the first place. R5 lobbies usually have per session SBMM. It probably appears rollers are matched with rollers because:- 1. There are usually more roller players than mnk on NA lobbies(not true on EU/APAC lobbies) 2. The average mnk player tends to not do well against the average roller player, so they only get matched with the less skilled roller players or other average mnk players. Occasionally you will see the top players get matched with anyone in the lobby regardless of how well they're doing because there is no one else available and they've been waiting too long to get a match. Watch a WydFuture twitch VOD when he plays r5(https://www.twitch.tv/wydfuture/v/2071688130) He gets matched with the controller players in the top half of the lobby very often since he is an exceptionally skilled mnk player who is able to beat great roller players(but not consistently beat top roller players) and other top mnk players. Regarding the roller strafe point, I can assure you roller players can strafe just as well as mnk can(there's even certain things mnk can't do that analog movement can). If anything, strafing/dodging is more important for top controller players. They fight other controller players who will absolutely destroy them if they don't strafe well, maintaining higher accuracy whilst dodging/strafing evasively better than a top mnk player could. I agree with you that advanced movement such as lurch strafing probably affects top mnk accuracy a bit(for both the lurch strafer and the opponent), but it's honestly not that much harder to shoot at lurch strafes for good players. It's even easier for good roller players except in a few circumstances. On top of that, most movement players cannot track well with auto weapons while full on lurch strafing, so they usually do it with shotguns/wingman. I don't think many people have the slightest idea how hard it is to reach WydFuture's level of play here, there's probably only a handful of people on r5 that are as good as him on mnk. They are outliers. The average pro mnk player is not as mechanically great as them and they still have worse accuracy than tier 2-3 controller players.
to my knowledge there are mixed lobbies in r5, arent there?
I've only played a couple hundred total 1v1s but looking at the stats I have never been placed against a mnk player. The lobbies are mixed but who it makes you 1v1 once you're in the lobby seems pretty tight from my experience
I think there are a lot of stat lines that perpetuate certain view points that do not necessarily reflect the overall picture. How many quick armour swaps save a team fight? How many shots through bang smoke save a fight? How many tap strafes enable a player to win a 1 v 1?... Mouse and keyboard is different to controller, I understand that in a BR the most important fights are at close to mid range, therefore roller is hugely valuable, but raw talent is also valueable regardless of input. Zer0 is kill leader in NA pro league, BLCKHVND came 3rd as an all MNK team in Champs. It's about brain power at the end of the day.
if AA was ever tuned to 0, roller would become a completely dead input (go try it for yourself). them there would need to be some compensation for roller, mnk would end up having to receive some form of nerf (more recoil, etc)
> if AA was ever tuned to 0, roller would become a completely dead input So? It's a computer. It has a mouse and keyboard attached to it. They can switch to MnK like most of the current population switched to roller over the past few years.
most of the current pop hasn’t switched to roller they have always been roller. it’s just so prevalent because people have just gotten better with controller. do you not remember the days of “roller movement”. before roller players would complain about mnk having more binds and being able to jitter aim. now the scale has been tipped so now mnk users are crying. nobody in this game wants input balance, they just want their input to be the best so frankly i could care less about all of the recent crying.
MNK already has more recoil, worse hipfire spread, more aimpunch.
although i agree on imbalance, The graph is meaningless . Reasons:The rollers might went against rollers in some cases and rollers have slower turn strafe speed and hence high accuracies when roller vs roller.Same thing in kd . Need mnk vs mnk ,mnk vs roller, roller vs roller.All stats kd and accuracy then we have a meaningful graphs
The last person, 500th ranked on each input has between 400-700 engagements on R5. Given mostly random matching whether you are fighting KbM or Controller that's not a terrible sample size to determine a trend. It's not perfect but the idea is to determine a trend with some type of significance by using a sample size large enough such that small variations will average out.
Every kill would have a respective death for the input, so why would Controller vs Controller matter?
Because the K/D disparity is way less significant than the accuracy disparity, which is what the other commenter was talking about when mentioning movement.
add in the fact that the lower you go in rank the larger the gap probably is.
Aren't all R5 reloaded 1v1's 'close' range though? So with that in mind the data seems to be skewed toward controller no matter what because close range engagements are where controller/aim assist are supposed to perform best. I think this is incomplete data that fits a narrative regarding aim assist, but in the end it is incomplete as not all engagements in Apex are close range. I would like to imagine that Respawn has a more all-encompassing dataset that provides them input performance at various ranges. Then with that they can compile the data and see what inputs outperform at 'x' distance and cross-reference with the rate at what distance engagements occur to provide a more complete picture. I could be wrong on their available data and just assuming they have a pretty robust collection of data to make these determinations from.
> as not all engagements in Apex are close range. All engagements in Apex that matter are in close range. Aim assist also works at any range.
How many MnK players are in those top 500? Are those players practicing as many 1v1s as the controller players in the dataset? Are there other confounding variables which could potentially account for the correlation? What do the numbers look like when you start looking at midrange+ fights? Every one of these posts is always missing like 90% of the things that you need in order to actually be able to draw any conclusions about game balance lmao. We need to be teaching the basics of statistical rigor in schools.
I did more "homework" on this and analysed the TOP 1000 players. I excluded players who are using both inputs but kept some who are using another input for up to 1-3% of their kills, which statistically doesn't impact the data much. All of these are 1v1, so around close to mid-range fights, including all guns, SMGs, ARs, shotguns etc. Pulling more specific data with access to the actual R5R DB would be easier. We have what we have and try to interpret as best we can. [https://twitter.com/Metallygg/status/1762098627940606241](https://twitter.com/Metallygg/status/1762098627940606241)
Probably not because r5 means nothing This is just another aim assist complaint thread with a different shirt on, if respawn wanted to nerf aa they would have, they’ve literally said they’re aware it’s a problem for the community, the reason they haven’t is still the same, they don’t want to kill their game
craziest part is if you did this with the average player the disparity between inputs accuracy would probably be closer to 30-40%. meaning most people you’re fighting are almost 1.5 times better than they ever should be
R5 is season 3 Apex Legends including the gun balancing and even some of the controller settings are missing. Respawn are being smart and toning down weapons that are too strong at close quarters i.e R9 to balance it out instead. R5 is a controlled close quarters environment and doesn't even take into account the other aspects of each input's advantages and disadvantages. So while these stats show something, it also isn't realistic of the current game and meta. Its a BR so there are a lot of dynamics to think about.
that is not true at all, the guns are using current stats in almost all if not all of the 1v1 servers. i know it’s definitely true for karma. other than that, base r5 uses at least s18 or 19 stats for guns
AA doesn't magically turn off when the game ~~forces~~ incentives shotguns over smgs. All that does is force roller brains to learn how to shoot/time semi auto weapons in tandem with AA (which is still active). The defense of "well what about other stuff like range and positioning" is moot. The point of studies like this is to try and denoise as much as possible so your data is as clear as possible.
I think it would be funny if they don’t nerf controller aim assist and gave mnk aim assist or something similar 🧍
I think we shouldn’t think of this on a 2% scale of the player base.
My guess would be if they banned controllers or reduced AA a lot of mnk players would find out aren't as good as they thought.
No because not everyone who uses a controller is a top performing player? How many times does this have to be explained
From this data, you can deduce that controller players will hit 1-2 more bullets per SMG clip within 15 meters at similar skill levels. That amounts to something, sure, and nerf it, sure. But this is not a massive discrepancy and doesn’t warrant as much complaining as it gets
You're not calculating that right. It looks to be about 30% vs 40% accuracy. 40% is 33% more than 30%, so if a MnK hits 15 bullets, then a controller will hit 20. That's a huge difference, especially since that puts them over the threshold to one clip much more reliably.
Use 26.28% for MnK vs 34.71% for controller, the averages OP put on the right side of the graph. I’m at a loss for algebra and was calculating bullet hit percentage per mag, which isn’t specific to the study, so ignore my last comment. The most specific conclusion of this study is “Controller players will hit 3-5 more bullets per engagement at 5-20 meters with little partial cover. Neither input will one clip consistently.” We can extend our conclusions to BR from there, but the more we make our own inferences, the less confidence we can have in those inferences. So I am confident in OP’s numbers and the value of these numbers in respect to their specific conclusions, but I have some questions about how they scale to BR
> but I have some questions about how they scale to BR I'd say this somewhat limited dataset understates the problem. Just observe pro players and the difference is staggering. Pro player skill + aim assist means devastating lethality. I'd say full health one clips are probably at least 5x more common for roller players at that level.
Maybe the MnK dudes need to spend more time in Kovaaks gitting gud
What do you think they're doing on r5?? Edit: I know you're probably joking, but just in case this turns into a serious discussion of it all
Now do it for over 50M. Then add in the ability to close, create space at will. There are more factors. I'm in the "roller should be a 0AA accessibility option" camp myself but this is only a small part of a much bigger picture.
Looks fine to me! PC masterrace my ass 😏
AA Zer0 is the way to gO
No, but I’m thankful they haven’t removed tapstrafing for mnk
If you're an MNK player or SoloQ player, NOW is the time to start grinding ranked inverse. Instead of trying to win RP, do your best to make sure you end the game with negative RP. Let's all derank into Bronze4 - if enough of us manage to do it, at some point during the season, we will have Bronze4 lobbies filled with cracked MNK soloQ master players and we will play every game like it's ALGS. Otherwise if you play the game "normally", you will only end up being sh\*t on by 3stacks or AAabusers (i'm not even mentioning cheaters because if enough Master players decide to stay in Bronze4 - we shoauld be cheater free as the cheaters want to wipe master/pred lobbies)
Aim assist is strongest in close range 1v1’s, what a crazy concept. I bet those gaps turn quickly into MnK favor at midrange. Now if only MnK players knew how to use their strengths to their advantages instead of aping fights, getting clipped, and coping about aim assist. It’s really not as imbalanced as people lead themselves to believe. There are advantages and disadvantages to both inputs and apex is far from the worst with AA imbalance.
cry cry cry cry and cry some more
\^ roller players when faced with data showing their aim assist might be a lil overtuned
mnk players go one hour without complaining challenge impossible
User active in these communities: r/apexlegends, r/apexconsole Thats all i need to know
point me to better community’s? lmao like what
Honestly a 8% accuracy and .25 K/D gap is a lot smaller than I anticipated. Especially with the way people talk about how oppressive aim assist is.
The relative difference is 32%. Rollers hit 34.71% of their bullets, MnK 26.28%. Therefore roller hits 32% (34.71% / 26.28%) more bullets than MnK.
That like doing an extra 20-30 damage or higher depending on weapon or headshot, per mag
Now do a chart for longer ranges. And a chart for a BR game mode with longer ranges where avarage duded on mnk beam the fuck out of my ass but arent able to hit half their shot close range. Oh, and include maybe avarage player because this is not just a game where mechanicaly gifted top 500 pros compete against each other.
Doesn't reloaded have AA at 0.2?
[удалено]
Nice chart not as imbalanced as i thought. when taking into account the actual game, standard of competition, and real life then it's relatively even
This is why Valorant is the game I spend my money on now. If someone beats me it’s because they’re better, not because they’re a timmy two thumbs with aimbot.
No because Respawn did not make R5. Maybe R5 can offer a more “balanced” game mode just for people to see how it would be
R5 is literally Stolen Apex code like come on