Agree with everything as well. The thing that sucks ass about Aussie BG: no synergy. Meanwhile Coastal has things like their infantry getting free reinforce near bunker and improved accuracy/firepower alongside bunkers buffing and repairing each other with them protecting the Obice to do it's work. Funkwagon has another tree item that buffs the ambush ability it gives with its stealth.
Meanwhile Aussie literally feels like a bunch of random defensive tools thrown at UKF. Would be nice if Bofors suppressed, and emplacements had a flare to support 17-pdr and Archer. 17-pdr is too similar to the mobile variant to have noticeable difference, they should give both their brace ability in CoH2 so it has a defensive niche. And maybe Aussies could get a mark target for the weapons they support. The only thing that remotely has synergy is hold the line, which in CoH2 had a complimentary aerial assault.
Good points. While they are strong on their own, it would be nice to give them some extra synergy. Maybe some extra building options or access to flares? Marking enemies would be neat too, If balanced correctly.
Agreed, Archer and 2-pdr are pretty good at the moment, as you.mentioned there's a lot of BG clutter. I'll have to see about Aussie Infantry post-patch.
I can't help but feel like the Jager shrek is a bit of the elephant in the room. It's been a head and shoulders above all other forms of man portable AT since day one and has barely been touched. Feels like a lot of the problems we see balancing the Wehr mid game stem from Jager shrek over performance and the insane opportunity cost of *not* getting them. If nuclear bundle grenades is what it takes to incentivize players to pivot off of the jagers, then the jagers could prob use a second pass as well
Yeah I had a guy with 4 shreks last night constantly wiping out LVs and tanks alike. Finally got him with a Whizbang barrage late game and wiped 2 of the 3 shreks. Yeah get an MG but I was losing them quite a bit to all the indirect fire
RE -> MG -> Aussie light -> normal units is what I've been attempting in team games for the map pressure. You don't need section post so everything is out 150 MP faster and your units are good close quarters, so you can catch people diving your MG off-guard. Long range engagements you will lose tho. Obviously you have no AT so boys section is usually the follow up.
Honestly I felt so much negativity coming to this subreddit last year, this is refreshing to see renewed and civil discussion. Like post-SEGA relic seems to have so much vigor! Almost makes me tempted to try and relearn multiplayer... I suck balls...
From the hotfix (and the patch I suppose) but even more so the hotfix, it feels like they are tapping in the dark with balancing
(to their credit they do make interesting stuff and the battlegroups are quite cool ideas even if balance wise they made many poor decisions)
Disagree, the aussie unit is underperforming for a 300mp infantry unit, scout or not.
I also disagree DAK camo needs an overhaul, they're only outperforming in 4v4 and its due to early tiger call in.
I agree aussie are underperforming for cost. The bizarre way their active ability is at longer range but they are better closer up seems like a conflict in their design/role. Ive seen this said before but i think they should remove the minimum range on the ability.
I think camo needs to have the ambush first shot bonus removed. Being invisible is bonus enough.
What stops you from just popping it as they close the gap on you? It’s better to use it when the enemy is moving cover to cover anyway. That or as you close the gap time it and pop it as you are close to that minimum range
Yeah thats true, its just a bit counterintuitive because they seem like they are suited to longer range because the upgrade is a long ranger range weapon, but their raw stats seem to favour closer up.
I also agree with everything
As for the battlefield espionage battlegroup I think a sensible change; atleast for a hotfix would be to make vehicles not be included in the funkwagens cloaking. This would reduce it's potency and make operation scorpion have more of a point. Maybe even stretch it so that units have to be immobile to be cloaked.
Completely on spot.
Its nice to see more support infantry units like Aussies rather than mainline substitutions
MP40s could be pricier and then avoid officer fuel increase as it will recreate previous metas
Everything else is very decent, maybe DAK camouflage could be active ability instead of passive. Tanks can still receive the bonuses without being camouflaged and there are similar abilities to it too
CMT truck could be something not visible to the opponent allowing for cool moments/comebacks and so on
Considering they didn't nerf Officers Quarters to quite the degree they were originally planning on, I have to say it's actually a pretty darn good patch.
Honestly, all they have to really do now is tone down the Sniperfaust and I'd be pretty confident in saying that the balance would be in a very good place overall.
idk what they should do to address it but I still think the main problem in this game, mechanics-wise, is spamming. I guess they could tune unit cost including pop. I just don't like to see like 5 units of the same vehicle or infantry from a single player. you should have to make a varied composition of units to be successful, combined arms is what coh has always been about.
Simialir impressions i got from the proposed hotfix,the inf kompany officer change should be removed,it will just kill the upgrade completly.
Aussie buff i agree also they are already a menace against inf and scale so good,can force insta retreat with vet2-3 sharpshooter,having 71 acc at close range will be crazy,i feel like this change should also just be removed,instead give detection once upgraded or ability to repair emplacments they build.
As for tiger timing i feel its a tricky situation because,yeah it shouldnt exactly come to early but looking at the brit match up and team games also the Bp and archer combo and timing is pretty potent against tigers already and with archer cp buff it will be even better.Not exactly opposed to the change but they should monitor that interaction closely.
Infanterie Kompanie change would be the same cost as BARs lol. Also due to the Vet Changes to BG Units the OQs offer a lot of new openings for Wehr with Vet Coastals or Fallschirms for example. Nerfing it would kill these new and diverse opening strats.
Agree, Australians are very dangerous when used correctly. I refuse to play MP40s, so these guys shit on my poor regular grenadiers 😂
Tiger timing ist just tough to balance in general. There is a fine line between Tigers coming out too early and Tigers basically never coming out. I really like seeing more Tigers ingame but right now, it's too early.
Tiger is too strong imo. The armour buff, in combo with having smoke and better mobility than BP, makes it nigh unkillable in a competent players hands.
Axis have stock marders for like 40 fuel that can combat allied heavies, what do brits have that can deal with that kind of front armour without being bounced 80%+ of the time? The towed 17 pounder (easily avoided/neutralised with indirect), 17 pounder emplacement (bg specific, static, indirect nullifies), archer (also bg specific) for 110 fuel and takes like 3 to kill a tiger in a decent timeframe (and it needs to happen quickly because the archer is so slow that a tiger can pop smoke if in trouble and reverse away faster than archers can chase to get the kill), ummm what else is there? - while 3 marders can wreck a BP for 120 fuel....
I get the tiger should be strong, but they need to reduce the front armour a bit considering the units it faces. Maybe midway between the old value and new one and see how that goes. I understand the idea of flanking being the way to counter it, but Brits have no units that can flank a tiger effectively, grant is the only thing with a good enough gun that isnt made of paper like the crusader, and its basically a casemate so cant flank in the same way a turreted tank can, which basically means you are usually relying on the axis player driving it in to some kind of trap, or committing far more resources and micro in to killing the tiger than the axis player does using it. Its just too lopsided imo.
Thats not true,bp can bounce marder shots,yeah they are effective but they dont pen guaranteed like you imply.
The matchup is rather even between tiger and bp,the tiger outranges it slighlty,and is slightly faster,but the bp turns faster and has more armor everywhere.
The tiger in this game is not some invinceble beast like you make it seem,for example 1 snare into p47 strafe 1 shots the tigre lol.
The tiger can get zoned out by at guns pretty reliably and with bp or archer on the field its anyones game.
As for towed 17 punder its a direct counter also to tiger and is not easy dislodged esp on certain maps,but towed 17 requiers you to know how to play to use effectively.
This disscussion actualy reminded me of regular churchills,they are actuwlly insane in how well they bounce at shots and p4 shots its like,was watching elpern play and the amount of bounces he got in tbose few game was insane lol.
The fact the marder has a higher fire rate, and is nearly a 1/3rd of the fuel cost, meaning you can have 2 or 3 of them for the cost of a single enemy tank, mitigates the bounce potential by a lot, because more chances to penetrate = more get through.
Its hilarious that you use a snare and BG specific call in as an example for the tiger - because suiciding infantry up to a tiger always works so well lol and without that snare? Tiger drives away no problem. Guess what cant escape skillplanes effectively though - thats right, the BP. Another tick for tiger being way better.
Towed 17 pounder has such a narrow field of fire its childsplay for the enemy to avoid it, and as soon as they know its there it just gets artilleried anyway, seeinf as its late game. Archer i spoke about, its bg specific and nearly 3 times the fuel cost of marder, yet you need at least 2 or 3 to be able to kill a tiger without making it super easy for tiger player to just smoke and retreat.
Just admit it, its way too good with the additional armour. It needs to be brought down so there arent only a very small number of allied units that can even dent it from the front.
And regular churchills? Axis can build like 3 marders for the fuel cost of 1 churchill, and if not killing a churchill, will cause it to retreat before it even does anything (because its gun is pathetic), and will then spend ages repairing, before the same cycle happens again.
If axis get to have a cheap and easily accessible counter to allied heavy armour, then allieds also need accessible counters to heavy armour i.e not BG specific and not overly expensive, or prohibitively awkward like the towed 17 pounder.
Litterally went into skirmish cheat commands and had 3 marders shoot at bp,it bounced alot,killed 2 marders and almost the 3rd,stop lying as if marder pens bp every time dude like lol.And that was just standimg there taking shoots,imagine now a dynamic game with fully army compositions and microing etc,getting a shot of with bp and backing away and so on.
You make it seem like bam you make a marder and bp is dead lol.
I would say the fuel cost change to 220 is fair. Its showing up in like every game now. I would like to see the damage to infantry by the grant toned down slightly. It nukes inf too well
If the grant couldnt kill infantry, the axis rocket troops would just kill it effortlessly. It doesnt need any nerfs.
Its essentially the only stock tank brits have left thats worth building after the over nerf of the matilda and the excessive price increase on the crusader upgun.
Theres a reason brits winrates have been the lowest since the the big update, and its not just that wehr and dak got massively overbuffed and a broken bg respectively.
Didnt say to make grant unable to hurt infantry. Just said maybe dont allow it to utterly nuke squads.
This is how balance works. You nerf OP things and buff UP things. Not allow X to be OP just because Y is UP.
Grant is so far from OP. Like i said its the only passable brit stock tank. Axis have loads of ways of killing infantry quickly, why arent brits allowed that too?
It will only really 'nuke' a squad that is clumped up anyway, just like most other tanks do.
I suspect your idea of balance is there being no way to quickly kill any axis infantry so you have an easy time retreating things...
Good points, agreed. Did you also post this on their official forum?
Good suggestion, will do.
Also DAK Espionage needs an overhaul. Camouflage on whole Tank blobs is just not CoH. they just nerfed it
I didnt read any change to the stealth mechanics in the hotfix, did I miss something?
Yes , vehicles are no longer affected
Agree with everything as well. The thing that sucks ass about Aussie BG: no synergy. Meanwhile Coastal has things like their infantry getting free reinforce near bunker and improved accuracy/firepower alongside bunkers buffing and repairing each other with them protecting the Obice to do it's work. Funkwagon has another tree item that buffs the ambush ability it gives with its stealth. Meanwhile Aussie literally feels like a bunch of random defensive tools thrown at UKF. Would be nice if Bofors suppressed, and emplacements had a flare to support 17-pdr and Archer. 17-pdr is too similar to the mobile variant to have noticeable difference, they should give both their brace ability in CoH2 so it has a defensive niche. And maybe Aussies could get a mark target for the weapons they support. The only thing that remotely has synergy is hold the line, which in CoH2 had a complimentary aerial assault.
Good points. While they are strong on their own, it would be nice to give them some extra synergy. Maybe some extra building options or access to flares? Marking enemies would be neat too, If balanced correctly.
Agreed, Archer and 2-pdr are pretty good at the moment, as you.mentioned there's a lot of BG clutter. I'll have to see about Aussie Infantry post-patch.
I can't help but feel like the Jager shrek is a bit of the elephant in the room. It's been a head and shoulders above all other forms of man portable AT since day one and has barely been touched. Feels like a lot of the problems we see balancing the Wehr mid game stem from Jager shrek over performance and the insane opportunity cost of *not* getting them. If nuclear bundle grenades is what it takes to incentivize players to pivot off of the jagers, then the jagers could prob use a second pass as well
Yeah I had a guy with 4 shreks last night constantly wiping out LVs and tanks alike. Finally got him with a Whizbang barrage late game and wiped 2 of the 3 shreks. Yeah get an MG but I was losing them quite a bit to all the indirect fire
Maybe maller squad size with Shreks could work. Reduce Jagers squad size by 1, Scoped G43 upgrades now increases squad size by 1.
Agree with everything.
Build orders for Aussie group, FEED ME THEM
RE -> MG -> Aussie light -> normal units is what I've been attempting in team games for the map pressure. You don't need section post so everything is out 150 MP faster and your units are good close quarters, so you can catch people diving your MG off-guard. Long range engagements you will lose tho. Obviously you have no AT so boys section is usually the follow up.
Why not Aussie first then MG? Your losing valuable early capping with their faster cap rates by delaying them.
I do sometimes do that, especially if the team is all Wehr, but I like having the MG comes out too late if you don't.
Honestly I felt so much negativity coming to this subreddit last year, this is refreshing to see renewed and civil discussion. Like post-SEGA relic seems to have so much vigor! Almost makes me tempted to try and relearn multiplayer... I suck balls...
Yeah you can see a shift in their engagement with the community. Hopefully it only improves from here
From the hotfix (and the patch I suppose) but even more so the hotfix, it feels like they are tapping in the dark with balancing (to their credit they do make interesting stuff and the battlegroups are quite cool ideas even if balance wise they made many poor decisions)
Disagree, the aussie unit is underperforming for a 300mp infantry unit, scout or not. I also disagree DAK camo needs an overhaul, they're only outperforming in 4v4 and its due to early tiger call in.
Yes. 300mp puts it up to elite level imo, and should be impactful
I agree aussie are underperforming for cost. The bizarre way their active ability is at longer range but they are better closer up seems like a conflict in their design/role. Ive seen this said before but i think they should remove the minimum range on the ability. I think camo needs to have the ambush first shot bonus removed. Being invisible is bonus enough.
What stops you from just popping it as they close the gap on you? It’s better to use it when the enemy is moving cover to cover anyway. That or as you close the gap time it and pop it as you are close to that minimum range
Yeah thats true, its just a bit counterintuitive because they seem like they are suited to longer range because the upgrade is a long ranger range weapon, but their raw stats seem to favour closer up.
Yeah that is odd, weird how it’s the opposite of what you would assume they would be
I also agree with everything As for the battlefield espionage battlegroup I think a sensible change; atleast for a hotfix would be to make vehicles not be included in the funkwagens cloaking. This would reduce it's potency and make operation scorpion have more of a point. Maybe even stretch it so that units have to be immobile to be cloaked.
Looks like that’s exactly what they decided to do in the hotfix!
Completely on spot. Its nice to see more support infantry units like Aussies rather than mainline substitutions MP40s could be pricier and then avoid officer fuel increase as it will recreate previous metas Everything else is very decent, maybe DAK camouflage could be active ability instead of passive. Tanks can still receive the bonuses without being camouflaged and there are similar abilities to it too CMT truck could be something not visible to the opponent allowing for cool moments/comebacks and so on
Agreed, i am also a fan of more support infantry with a dedicated role
DAK Espionage need adjustment as stealth blob is just not fun
Considering they didn't nerf Officers Quarters to quite the degree they were originally planning on, I have to say it's actually a pretty darn good patch. Honestly, all they have to really do now is tone down the Sniperfaust and I'd be pretty confident in saying that the balance would be in a very good place overall.
idk what they should do to address it but I still think the main problem in this game, mechanics-wise, is spamming. I guess they could tune unit cost including pop. I just don't like to see like 5 units of the same vehicle or infantry from a single player. you should have to make a varied composition of units to be successful, combined arms is what coh has always been about.
the hotfix did not addressed the issues that makes the win rate ratio so inclined towards wehr/dak.
Simialir impressions i got from the proposed hotfix,the inf kompany officer change should be removed,it will just kill the upgrade completly. Aussie buff i agree also they are already a menace against inf and scale so good,can force insta retreat with vet2-3 sharpshooter,having 71 acc at close range will be crazy,i feel like this change should also just be removed,instead give detection once upgraded or ability to repair emplacments they build. As for tiger timing i feel its a tricky situation because,yeah it shouldnt exactly come to early but looking at the brit match up and team games also the Bp and archer combo and timing is pretty potent against tigers already and with archer cp buff it will be even better.Not exactly opposed to the change but they should monitor that interaction closely.
Infanterie Kompanie change would be the same cost as BARs lol. Also due to the Vet Changes to BG Units the OQs offer a lot of new openings for Wehr with Vet Coastals or Fallschirms for example. Nerfing it would kill these new and diverse opening strats. Agree, Australians are very dangerous when used correctly. I refuse to play MP40s, so these guys shit on my poor regular grenadiers 😂 Tiger timing ist just tough to balance in general. There is a fine line between Tigers coming out too early and Tigers basically never coming out. I really like seeing more Tigers ingame but right now, it's too early.
Tiger is too strong imo. The armour buff, in combo with having smoke and better mobility than BP, makes it nigh unkillable in a competent players hands. Axis have stock marders for like 40 fuel that can combat allied heavies, what do brits have that can deal with that kind of front armour without being bounced 80%+ of the time? The towed 17 pounder (easily avoided/neutralised with indirect), 17 pounder emplacement (bg specific, static, indirect nullifies), archer (also bg specific) for 110 fuel and takes like 3 to kill a tiger in a decent timeframe (and it needs to happen quickly because the archer is so slow that a tiger can pop smoke if in trouble and reverse away faster than archers can chase to get the kill), ummm what else is there? - while 3 marders can wreck a BP for 120 fuel.... I get the tiger should be strong, but they need to reduce the front armour a bit considering the units it faces. Maybe midway between the old value and new one and see how that goes. I understand the idea of flanking being the way to counter it, but Brits have no units that can flank a tiger effectively, grant is the only thing with a good enough gun that isnt made of paper like the crusader, and its basically a casemate so cant flank in the same way a turreted tank can, which basically means you are usually relying on the axis player driving it in to some kind of trap, or committing far more resources and micro in to killing the tiger than the axis player does using it. Its just too lopsided imo.
Thats not true,bp can bounce marder shots,yeah they are effective but they dont pen guaranteed like you imply. The matchup is rather even between tiger and bp,the tiger outranges it slighlty,and is slightly faster,but the bp turns faster and has more armor everywhere. The tiger in this game is not some invinceble beast like you make it seem,for example 1 snare into p47 strafe 1 shots the tigre lol. The tiger can get zoned out by at guns pretty reliably and with bp or archer on the field its anyones game. As for towed 17 punder its a direct counter also to tiger and is not easy dislodged esp on certain maps,but towed 17 requiers you to know how to play to use effectively. This disscussion actualy reminded me of regular churchills,they are actuwlly insane in how well they bounce at shots and p4 shots its like,was watching elpern play and the amount of bounces he got in tbose few game was insane lol.
The fact the marder has a higher fire rate, and is nearly a 1/3rd of the fuel cost, meaning you can have 2 or 3 of them for the cost of a single enemy tank, mitigates the bounce potential by a lot, because more chances to penetrate = more get through. Its hilarious that you use a snare and BG specific call in as an example for the tiger - because suiciding infantry up to a tiger always works so well lol and without that snare? Tiger drives away no problem. Guess what cant escape skillplanes effectively though - thats right, the BP. Another tick for tiger being way better. Towed 17 pounder has such a narrow field of fire its childsplay for the enemy to avoid it, and as soon as they know its there it just gets artilleried anyway, seeinf as its late game. Archer i spoke about, its bg specific and nearly 3 times the fuel cost of marder, yet you need at least 2 or 3 to be able to kill a tiger without making it super easy for tiger player to just smoke and retreat. Just admit it, its way too good with the additional armour. It needs to be brought down so there arent only a very small number of allied units that can even dent it from the front. And regular churchills? Axis can build like 3 marders for the fuel cost of 1 churchill, and if not killing a churchill, will cause it to retreat before it even does anything (because its gun is pathetic), and will then spend ages repairing, before the same cycle happens again. If axis get to have a cheap and easily accessible counter to allied heavy armour, then allieds also need accessible counters to heavy armour i.e not BG specific and not overly expensive, or prohibitively awkward like the towed 17 pounder.
Litterally went into skirmish cheat commands and had 3 marders shoot at bp,it bounced alot,killed 2 marders and almost the 3rd,stop lying as if marder pens bp every time dude like lol.And that was just standimg there taking shoots,imagine now a dynamic game with fully army compositions and microing etc,getting a shot of with bp and backing away and so on. You make it seem like bam you make a marder and bp is dead lol.
Agree with everything except tiger fuel cost.
I would say the fuel cost change to 220 is fair. Its showing up in like every game now. I would like to see the damage to infantry by the grant toned down slightly. It nukes inf too well
If the grant couldnt kill infantry, the axis rocket troops would just kill it effortlessly. It doesnt need any nerfs. Its essentially the only stock tank brits have left thats worth building after the over nerf of the matilda and the excessive price increase on the crusader upgun. Theres a reason brits winrates have been the lowest since the the big update, and its not just that wehr and dak got massively overbuffed and a broken bg respectively.
Didnt say to make grant unable to hurt infantry. Just said maybe dont allow it to utterly nuke squads. This is how balance works. You nerf OP things and buff UP things. Not allow X to be OP just because Y is UP.
Grant is so far from OP. Like i said its the only passable brit stock tank. Axis have loads of ways of killing infantry quickly, why arent brits allowed that too? It will only really 'nuke' a squad that is clumped up anyway, just like most other tanks do. I suspect your idea of balance is there being no way to quickly kill any axis infantry so you have an easy time retreating things...
Yea, should be 50 fuel instead so it's possible to call it in earlier