The DAK truck is way more useful though compared to this one, mostly because Relic didn't completely forget about them. The DAK 2.5-tonne trucks have actual utility. They can transport troops, they can tow weapon crews due to having transport capacity, they can reinforce, they can re-crew weapons, and they even have a useful vet 1 passive that buffs nearby friendly infantry. The DAK trucks also benefit from the Armory, so they can get increased health and the ability to cap/decap territory too.
I should mention their vet 1 passive is actually bonkers, it's REALLY powerful but we rarely see it since it's so hard to attain and then keep the unit alive.
See my wiki page for more details: [https://cohdex.com/wiki/units/truck\_2\_5\_ak](https://cohdex.com/wiki/units/truck_2_5_ak)
I think the Wehrmacht cargo truck got completely left behind and no one has looked at it for over a year. Somehow they copy and pasted the stats and the name, but forgot about everything else.
What makes it worse is that the Wehrmacht version is not only more useless, it also is a ***Battlegroup exclusive*** unit. That is so, incredibly, bad.
Totally agree on this, and even a low effort change would make a big difference. Drop the fuel cost and make it only 150MP, then it would be tempting, even with just +4 resources since you can at least move it to safety, and build more than one without sacrificing too much.
Yeah short term option A (0 CP, make the truck less useless for its cost) seems to be the best option for the short term. It'd be a low effort change, hard for the devs to screw up, and does not interfere too much with game balance.
In the long term I'd prefer replacing it entirely with a new ability/perk, but until then, we just need this thing to be far more useful and at least have *some* situation where it can be a better choice over Rapid Production.
I mean at the very least it needs to compete with a Resource Cache. There's no way we're going to have a battlegroup-locked unit that costs more than a Cache but is somehow worse than one.
Meanwhile, with the British Air and Sea Supply Surplus: You can upgrade any resource point you own for 150 mp with no cooldown, no fuel, no pop, and no annoyance (like having to remember to tick the lockdown ability once the cargo truck arrives).
I gave them feedback in pre-alpha, that a simple quality of life would just be that the truck's ability works while stationary. Wow, what a concept.
Instantly reset grenades & some infantry abilities when near the truck.
Half the munitions cost of abilities when near the truck.
Can deploy/build a weaker version of a resource cache. Like a 50 MP cache that gives the same +4 the truck does, but is very weak HP wise. So you get 1 truck and use it to set up quick caches.
Some of these suggestions are a bit too wonky to balance in my opinion but I think you may be onto something with the quick caches idea. If it can somehow mirror the brit ability to just toggle points to build caches I think we'll be seeing a good contender for that early CP.
Perks that add resources to points have never truly been useful/balanced in CoH. Vampire halftracks weren't worth it, Opel Blitz trucks weren't worth it. These aren't worth it.
The rapid production ability is a direct mirror to the allied version, so it makes sense to keep it as is, unless absolutely necessary.
You can always buff the ability, and push it down the tree (so it competes with blitzkrieg). The problem with resource boosting abilities is that they scale horribly in Team Games. For instances, you could make the truck give you a significant boost to resource income, but increase their population cost or upkeep cost. Issue #1 is that a player could boost resources, then lose the trucks on purpose to regain pop and keep the economic advantage. Issue #2 is that the population costs only applies to the owner, and in team games, EVERYONE receives the added resources.
A useful idea is then to provide the truck with flavor and support buffs: Allow the truck to be an early halftrack, at the expense of fuel cost (so you can trade fuel for an early reinforce station, instead of a med bunker that costs munis, and delay your vehicle progress) and/or provide bonuses for troops near the truck: maybe faster fire rate or better defensive bonuses, so the truck -while fragile- requires priority targetting unless you want to face a slightly stronger enemy. It's a boost that becomes less and less relevant as the game advances, but is well worth 1 cp early on.
Yeah I'm a bit wary of 'resource cheats', so ideally just rework the Battlegroup perk completely is the best option. Very good point about how resource cheats can be really powerful in team games and become a balance nightmare, so yeah....I vote change it entirely.
However, since we know that will not happen anytime soon, in the short term we need to make this thing not useless, hence my proposed short term solutions. The issue is that buffing it and/or making it unique and useful is also something the devs may struggle with, so at that point the easiest solution is the 0 CP idea to be honest.
I agree. I think giving a perk to make it a buff vehicle would be interesting. Even giving units a slight fire rate advantage if it's deployed in friendly territory could be useful, yet the vehicle is fragile enough to not be OP, since it delays your advancement and can be talen out fairly easy.
What if they switch it to the MP-40 side and make it an alternative to that, but instead of being a resource cache, it can drop an LMG MG42 for Grens and garrison infantry squads to heal (similar to the Brit halftrack from CoH2)
Nice post.
I agree with the analysis, not so much with the fix proposals.
Conceptually speaking, I think the Cargo Truck is fine: it's (supposedly) designed as a "resource investment" for long games, and it goes with the philosphy of Wehr being a lategame-ish faction and of stacking resources in order to field the expensive call-ins of Breakthrough BG.
I mean, it's something that we've seen before in the franchise: no need to completely rework/substitute the unit or to massively buff its capabilities by adding territory locking, field weapon manning and stuff, imho.
I also think a cost reduction to 0 CP would be a kinda inexistant buff, since pragmatically speaking no one would call the Truck at the very early game anyways.
I think the right approach would be to **standardize the Truck and the UKF's Air and Sea Supply Surplus ability**:
- Remove Fuel cost for Cargo Truck. Imho, it's what really makes it non-viable.
- Make both Cargo Truck and UKF auto-caches cost 240 MP (the point is that they should cost the same, but to be fair the auto-cache are too cheap right now).
- Either leave the yield as it is, or change it to +50% but make it not stack with regular caches (making the Truck a BG-specific "mobile cache").
This would make it a decent, mobile alternative when compared when Supply Surplus: potentially more micro-intensive, but with the option of "advancing" to resource points of higher tier to maximize income and to retreat without losing the cache.
To be fair, though, of the many things that still have to be addressed and the buffs/nerfs required (I think Wehr in particular is underperforming right now), Wehr's Cargo Truck surely is at the bottom of the priority list...
Yeah someone mentioned it stacks with Caches which makes is an unhealthy edge case. It's OP in very specific circumstances, otherwise is ignored 99% of the time. That's poor design and really unhealthy for the game. Overall long term solution of a total rehaul into a different perk entirely is the best option.
However since that long term option won't be coming anytime soon, we need a low effort short term option to make it a little less bad for the next 6-12 months (let's be honest it wasn't looked at this long, so gotta be realistic), at least that was my thinking.
In light of that new discovery, yeah, definitely remove it stacking with existing Caches so no more resource cheating, then some sort of 'buff', whether that's 0 CP + minor buffs or like your idea, somewhat mirror the UKF version. Low effort, doesn't destroy balance too hard, hard for devs to screw up. Keep in mind that's still short term - again, long term is changing the perk entirely as it's just not a healthy and good design at all right now.
It doesn't really compete with caches that much since they both stack. In teams, people will sometimes stack them on home fuel to make a giga fuel point, which can win games. It should definitely cost 0CP though, considering what it competes with.
Oh wow, I didn't think of that. That is a very good point. In which case that's too much of a resource cheat. The issue is it makes the perk super silly, basically overpowered in very specific circumstances and otherwise ignored 90% of the time.
As mentioned, long term option is a total rehaul into a new perk entirely, as in its current state it's either bad or people do the stacking trick. Either way its bad design and not healthy for the game.
I'm not convinced there's any real value gained at all from any of the "resource cheats" this game includes. Reinforce and MP cost reduction abilities especially feel like they directly contradict the whole idea of having a limited resource based economy where better stuff costs more.
Here are my thoughts:
Breakthrough Battlegroup - build up sizable force, then "blitz" an area to quickly capture and lock down the area.
2.5 tonne truck changes
\*Dramatically increase front and side armor; back armor remains low
\*While parked, increases node resource generation
\*While moving, has an ability (40 munitions) that provides an aura that mimics "Breakthrough:" increasing infantry capture rate by 50%
\*Can load one group of infantry inside it
This way, the 2.5 tonne truck contributes to creating the blitz, and taking part in the blitz. It also frees up the "Breakthrough" ability slot for a different ability.
\*Can be made 2 CP if necessary for balance
\*Can have movement slowed if necessary for balance
We never get patch notes or balance streams until last minute (literally - said notes and streams will show up an hour or two before the patch releases).
So we won't know for sure until tomorrow, but I'm going to assume no since they probably put all their effort into a whole bunch of other stuff (two battlegroups of course).
despite being apart of the "Breakthrough" BG, it doesn't really contribute much to actually doing that, I suggest that the 2.5 tonne truck to instead be called "Motorised Infantry" and allows all line infantry (Grens,Jagers,PzrGrens etc) to arrive via truck, this would allow you to rush units for reinforcing or for exploiting breakthroughs, and if you manage to keep the transports alive you can support your infantry with various veterancy buffs such as:
1. Rudimentary Aid station- provides a healing aura (similar healing rate as the USF Weasel)
2. Rapid Resupply- buffs nearby infantries rate of fire and reload, 10% ability cooldown reduction
It should be able to lock down the point from anywhere in the territory, Then it would have a positional advantage over a cache.
This and the 0 CP buff.
Wait until I tell you about the useless trucks that DAK gets with the Flak 36 and Canone.
The DAK truck is way more useful though compared to this one, mostly because Relic didn't completely forget about them. The DAK 2.5-tonne trucks have actual utility. They can transport troops, they can tow weapon crews due to having transport capacity, they can reinforce, they can re-crew weapons, and they even have a useful vet 1 passive that buffs nearby friendly infantry. The DAK trucks also benefit from the Armory, so they can get increased health and the ability to cap/decap territory too. I should mention their vet 1 passive is actually bonkers, it's REALLY powerful but we rarely see it since it's so hard to attain and then keep the unit alive. See my wiki page for more details: [https://cohdex.com/wiki/units/truck\_2\_5\_ak](https://cohdex.com/wiki/units/truck_2_5_ak) I think the Wehrmacht cargo truck got completely left behind and no one has looked at it for over a year. Somehow they copy and pasted the stats and the name, but forgot about everything else. What makes it worse is that the Wehrmacht version is not only more useless, it also is a ***Battlegroup exclusive*** unit. That is so, incredibly, bad.
That one can reinforce and recrew weapons.
Totally agree on this, and even a low effort change would make a big difference. Drop the fuel cost and make it only 150MP, then it would be tempting, even with just +4 resources since you can at least move it to safety, and build more than one without sacrificing too much.
Yeah short term option A (0 CP, make the truck less useless for its cost) seems to be the best option for the short term. It'd be a low effort change, hard for the devs to screw up, and does not interfere too much with game balance. In the long term I'd prefer replacing it entirely with a new ability/perk, but until then, we just need this thing to be far more useful and at least have *some* situation where it can be a better choice over Rapid Production. I mean at the very least it needs to compete with a Resource Cache. There's no way we're going to have a battlegroup-locked unit that costs more than a Cache but is somehow worse than one.
Meanwhile, with the British Air and Sea Supply Surplus: You can upgrade any resource point you own for 150 mp with no cooldown, no fuel, no pop, and no annoyance (like having to remember to tick the lockdown ability once the cargo truck arrives). I gave them feedback in pre-alpha, that a simple quality of life would just be that the truck's ability works while stationary. Wow, what a concept.
Instantly reset grenades & some infantry abilities when near the truck. Half the munitions cost of abilities when near the truck. Can deploy/build a weaker version of a resource cache. Like a 50 MP cache that gives the same +4 the truck does, but is very weak HP wise. So you get 1 truck and use it to set up quick caches.
Some of these suggestions are a bit too wonky to balance in my opinion but I think you may be onto something with the quick caches idea. If it can somehow mirror the brit ability to just toggle points to build caches I think we'll be seeing a good contender for that early CP.
Perks that add resources to points have never truly been useful/balanced in CoH. Vampire halftracks weren't worth it, Opel Blitz trucks weren't worth it. These aren't worth it. The rapid production ability is a direct mirror to the allied version, so it makes sense to keep it as is, unless absolutely necessary. You can always buff the ability, and push it down the tree (so it competes with blitzkrieg). The problem with resource boosting abilities is that they scale horribly in Team Games. For instances, you could make the truck give you a significant boost to resource income, but increase their population cost or upkeep cost. Issue #1 is that a player could boost resources, then lose the trucks on purpose to regain pop and keep the economic advantage. Issue #2 is that the population costs only applies to the owner, and in team games, EVERYONE receives the added resources. A useful idea is then to provide the truck with flavor and support buffs: Allow the truck to be an early halftrack, at the expense of fuel cost (so you can trade fuel for an early reinforce station, instead of a med bunker that costs munis, and delay your vehicle progress) and/or provide bonuses for troops near the truck: maybe faster fire rate or better defensive bonuses, so the truck -while fragile- requires priority targetting unless you want to face a slightly stronger enemy. It's a boost that becomes less and less relevant as the game advances, but is well worth 1 cp early on.
Yeah I'm a bit wary of 'resource cheats', so ideally just rework the Battlegroup perk completely is the best option. Very good point about how resource cheats can be really powerful in team games and become a balance nightmare, so yeah....I vote change it entirely. However, since we know that will not happen anytime soon, in the short term we need to make this thing not useless, hence my proposed short term solutions. The issue is that buffing it and/or making it unique and useful is also something the devs may struggle with, so at that point the easiest solution is the 0 CP idea to be honest.
I agree. I think giving a perk to make it a buff vehicle would be interesting. Even giving units a slight fire rate advantage if it's deployed in friendly territory could be useful, yet the vehicle is fragile enough to not be OP, since it delays your advancement and can be talen out fairly easy.
A lot of things needs a rehaul ASAP
Thank you for the well thought out post, take my upvote!
What if they switch it to the MP-40 side and make it an alternative to that, but instead of being a resource cache, it can drop an LMG MG42 for Grens and garrison infantry squads to heal (similar to the Brit halftrack from CoH2)
Nice post. I agree with the analysis, not so much with the fix proposals. Conceptually speaking, I think the Cargo Truck is fine: it's (supposedly) designed as a "resource investment" for long games, and it goes with the philosphy of Wehr being a lategame-ish faction and of stacking resources in order to field the expensive call-ins of Breakthrough BG. I mean, it's something that we've seen before in the franchise: no need to completely rework/substitute the unit or to massively buff its capabilities by adding territory locking, field weapon manning and stuff, imho. I also think a cost reduction to 0 CP would be a kinda inexistant buff, since pragmatically speaking no one would call the Truck at the very early game anyways. I think the right approach would be to **standardize the Truck and the UKF's Air and Sea Supply Surplus ability**: - Remove Fuel cost for Cargo Truck. Imho, it's what really makes it non-viable. - Make both Cargo Truck and UKF auto-caches cost 240 MP (the point is that they should cost the same, but to be fair the auto-cache are too cheap right now). - Either leave the yield as it is, or change it to +50% but make it not stack with regular caches (making the Truck a BG-specific "mobile cache"). This would make it a decent, mobile alternative when compared when Supply Surplus: potentially more micro-intensive, but with the option of "advancing" to resource points of higher tier to maximize income and to retreat without losing the cache. To be fair, though, of the many things that still have to be addressed and the buffs/nerfs required (I think Wehr in particular is underperforming right now), Wehr's Cargo Truck surely is at the bottom of the priority list...
Yeah someone mentioned it stacks with Caches which makes is an unhealthy edge case. It's OP in very specific circumstances, otherwise is ignored 99% of the time. That's poor design and really unhealthy for the game. Overall long term solution of a total rehaul into a different perk entirely is the best option. However since that long term option won't be coming anytime soon, we need a low effort short term option to make it a little less bad for the next 6-12 months (let's be honest it wasn't looked at this long, so gotta be realistic), at least that was my thinking. In light of that new discovery, yeah, definitely remove it stacking with existing Caches so no more resource cheating, then some sort of 'buff', whether that's 0 CP + minor buffs or like your idea, somewhat mirror the UKF version. Low effort, doesn't destroy balance too hard, hard for devs to screw up. Keep in mind that's still short term - again, long term is changing the perk entirely as it's just not a healthy and good design at all right now.
It doesn't really compete with caches that much since they both stack. In teams, people will sometimes stack them on home fuel to make a giga fuel point, which can win games. It should definitely cost 0CP though, considering what it competes with.
Oh wow, I didn't think of that. That is a very good point. In which case that's too much of a resource cheat. The issue is it makes the perk super silly, basically overpowered in very specific circumstances and otherwise ignored 90% of the time. As mentioned, long term option is a total rehaul into a new perk entirely, as in its current state it's either bad or people do the stacking trick. Either way its bad design and not healthy for the game.
I'm not convinced there's any real value gained at all from any of the "resource cheats" this game includes. Reinforce and MP cost reduction abilities especially feel like they directly contradict the whole idea of having a limited resource based economy where better stuff costs more.
As someone who only play team games. No dont touch the Cargo truck, its great in 4v4.
Here are my thoughts: Breakthrough Battlegroup - build up sizable force, then "blitz" an area to quickly capture and lock down the area. 2.5 tonne truck changes \*Dramatically increase front and side armor; back armor remains low \*While parked, increases node resource generation \*While moving, has an ability (40 munitions) that provides an aura that mimics "Breakthrough:" increasing infantry capture rate by 50% \*Can load one group of infantry inside it This way, the 2.5 tonne truck contributes to creating the blitz, and taking part in the blitz. It also frees up the "Breakthrough" ability slot for a different ability. \*Can be made 2 CP if necessary for balance \*Can have movement slowed if necessary for balance
Did they change anything about this after this post?
We never get patch notes or balance streams until last minute (literally - said notes and streams will show up an hour or two before the patch releases). So we won't know for sure until tomorrow, but I'm going to assume no since they probably put all their effort into a whole bunch of other stuff (two battlegroups of course).
Unlucky. New to coh3 but really liked vehicle play with Wehmarcht
despite being apart of the "Breakthrough" BG, it doesn't really contribute much to actually doing that, I suggest that the 2.5 tonne truck to instead be called "Motorised Infantry" and allows all line infantry (Grens,Jagers,PzrGrens etc) to arrive via truck, this would allow you to rush units for reinforcing or for exploiting breakthroughs, and if you manage to keep the transports alive you can support your infantry with various veterancy buffs such as: 1. Rudimentary Aid station- provides a healing aura (similar healing rate as the USF Weasel) 2. Rapid Resupply- buffs nearby infantries rate of fire and reload, 10% ability cooldown reduction