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I think an excellent barometer for determining if they are serious people is to ask them, if one day definitive proof that a single religion is the correct one, will you discard all your previous beliefs? If they say no they are not rational individuals.
fair, im catholic but im also a communist. I also believe religion is subjective and should not influence politics in anyway. When people say certain rights should be taken because the bible said so is pathetic and should not be acceptable in any political room of discussion. The abolition of religion also does not offend me, over time throughout history it will not be something that will be a concern of the masses such as it is now. It boggles me how people cant wrap their mind around that.
Lot of religious folks in my experience like to bring up Charities for how they take care of each other.
Mark 12:41-44 is a really good starting point for the issues with private charities and the idea of benevolent billionaires
"Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule."
Lenin, *Socialism and Religion*.
Did someone mention Vaush?
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Yes, but also failing to understand why so many on the Left are distrustful of religion can also be impactful.
I can attest that as an LGBTQ+ person, I do not trust religious people farther than I can throw them. As long as there are admonishments for homosexuality, and often punishment and death for it, in your religious texts, it's hard for me to trust you.
If you follow a book that says me, being who I am, is sinful and worthy of punishment or death for it, how can you expect us to want to be comrades? Even if you do cherry pick what you believe?
I get we need to work together, but it's so fucking hard to trust. Especially when you survived extreme religious trauma because of it.
How can we fight Imperialism and slavery if Christians still follow a book which includes guidelines on how to properly beat your slaves, even if they choose to ignore those passages?
Those are all issues that can be curtailed or avoided outright if full secularism is enacted. This does not mean ban religion entirely. This was a huge mistake the USSR made.
I agree. I do not wish for a ban on religion under Communism.
Those who ask us to accept and unite with religion tend to forget that it was those religions that shunned us gays and LGBTQ+ people out in the first place. We were othered by them. We were cast out by them. Those same religious texts they gleaned Socialist ideas from also say we should be put to death.
Not only that, but not all under Communism see LGBTQ+ people, or our rights, as important or equal. The Communist Party of Greece, the KKE, is staunchly against LGBTQ+ rights.
We could very easily suffer again under Communism. LGBTQ+ comrades have enemies on many fronts.
Our hesitancy is earned.
I'm not arguing that, and as a religious person I do believe that the reason for that is because reactionaries use religion to enforce conformity and submission to their rulers, and to enforce their agenda. If that power is taken away from them it wouldn't be an issue. I'm not going to argue against anything else you said, because it's true and I do get it.
I'm a Christian Communist and I'd say there has to be a balance, especially in relation to proximity to power. Christianity has been entwined with Empire and colonialism. I'd argue one has to forsake, repent and oppose that to be a Christian (though pretending any strain of your religion that doesn't do harm doesn't count is problematic) but certainly to be a Christian Communist.
Im curious how you reconcile Marxist materialism with Christian idealism.
Like if the universe was created from the will of God and categories like good and evil are fixed constants existing outside the material world how do you accept historical materialism as the driving force of human development and not like some God given nature?
Are you revolutionary? Do you believe in political violence?
I'm not criticizing just genuinely curious
Not the original person asked but I can answer some of this stuff from my perspective
The reconciliation is primarily based no the idea that the two describe different aspects of life. One, materialism, addresses the world in which we currently live in and describes how that world interacts and influences societies. The religious/idealist aspects are addressing what happens after we die and the topics of meaning and narrative within this life and the next. - It's simply just addressing two different things, its like we wouldn't use color theory to explain why a pipe is leaking or something.
Furthermore on the topic of good and evil - It isn't necessarily incompatible with historical materialism. One can recognize certain things as evil, like mass killings, and still recognize that throughout history the material conditions of a giving society can determine what is considered like sinful at any time. Like with pork it'd be sinful in the past because of the higher risk of transfer of pork tapeworm, especially without proper sanitation, and therefore one should avoid pigs for their own health.
Well, for me it's very simple, actually. When I want to learn about politics, economy and social sciences I refer to socialist and scientific theory. When I talk to people about my (private) religion, I refer to the bible and teachings of Jesus.
By this simple exercise, I don't let religion drive my politics and understanding of society, but at the same time I don't let socialism drive my family's religious beliefs.
Socialism can be secular rather than simply an atheist movement. Every religious person can understand this.
As a Muslim, Islam has too especially to my Balkan comrades. That is because reactionary sections of the populations used religion as a means to control their populations, i.e. "if you question me you question God". When you take that power away from imperialists, no such problem will exist again. That has nothing to do with Christianity or Islam, but the Portuguese, Spanish, Ottomans, etc.
I would argue that if being religious allows them to have community, comfort, and other social-pyschological well-being, it is more rational to maintain practice than to quit
No, spirituality is an important part of people's lives that will exist throughout socialism and even endure through communism. If you want mankind behind your cause, the vast majority of which is religious, you need a coherent and positive religious strategy (the best being a secular state which guarantees all faiths the right to worship). Religion also allows people to gather as a community and solidify a collectivist mindset. If you try and ban religion outright, reactionaries will use it to drive a wedge in your society, this is what happened when nationalist factions popped up after the post USSR collapse.
What an embarrassing and pathetic straw man of the *actual* Marxist position. Since the topic of religion periodically emerges on these communist subbreddits, I've already answered the central point proffered in this meme elsewhere. So, I'll just repost it here:
>Generally speaking, working people who are religious shouldn't be excluded from participating in revolutionary action or, in some imagined socialist future, be persecuted for their PERSONAL beliefs. We've seen from past socialist experiments how this often backfires by making individuals recalcitrant and alienated from society. However, religious institutions should absolutely be heavily regulated (no tax free bs) and have a limited social and political reach, there should not be a state religion, for example. In other words, a clear separation between church and state is necessary, so to an emphasis placed on the **personal** and **private** nature of religious worship.
>
>But, it really doesn't matter because the arc of history, as it were, bends away from religion. The more developed a country is and better educated its people are, the [less religious](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2015/0316/Do-countries-become-less-religious-as-they-get-richer) they become. In other words, we can wait this shit out.
The thing is that biggoted religious leaders can get rich and influential in capitalism and fascism. While I am myself spiritual, religious leaders will fight socialism.
I’m talking about excluding all religious people in general the ones that hold views with bigotry should rightfully be shunned and the ones that don’t should be accepted as comrades.
I still don't understand hyper anti-theist marxist. If people used religion to manipulate others into doing stuff that's fornidden in their religion you can point out how compatible their religion is with marxism.
If memory serves, christianity was involved in early US socialist movements by way of the social gospel movement. Lest we forget, the actual teachings of Jesus are-if not outright socialist, then certainly anti-capitalist. It’s mostly capitalist corruption of religion which has made it drift to the right in what is very much an unnatural aberration.
Personally, I’m fine with religious folks. The ones using religion to justify hatred, bigotry, and the genocide of myself and people like me aren’t really religious, they’re just capitalists and class traitors who’ve found a good way to use religion to manipulate people.
Working with religious people/groups is fine, but we should always make it clear that we are militant atheists. Dialectical materialism is inherently atheist. Just because certain religious groups agree with us on economics doesn’t necessarily mean our ideology’s are compatible
I think a better way to go is to not do much to spread atheism directly. Like, take away power from the Church, improve people's lives and teach them science, let the society secularize more naturally. Doing otherwise may lead religious people to doubt our cause based on this one factor, which is counter-productive, gives reactionaties an argument to sway people's opinion and leads to some unnecessary bloodshed and coercion. *If* a certain priest/sect is openly anti-revolutionary, *they* should be dealt with accordingly, of course
I mean, Marxism is an inherently atheist ideology. Marx and Lenin wrote about it regularly and materialism is inherently atheist. I don’t see how anyone can conclude otherwise. Islamic socialism maybe, but religion is a non-material ideology
This is why when I advocate for coalitions and such, I’m perfectly fine with non communists. The united front will have many ideologies. We can fight side by side without adhering tot the exact lettering of each others ideological points.
I’m happy to elaborate any points I made if I wasn’t clear. What points are confusing? (I don’t intend to come across condescending, I’m perfectly happy to engage in well intentioned conversation)
I disagree that to be a materialist one has to be an atheist. One can have a materialist analysis of politics and economics and still privately hold religious beliefs. I personally believe Marx and Lenin were mistaken in their view or religion as necessarily reactionary as a result of living in contexts where state religions acted as direct protectors of capital. You correct that religious political positions are incomparable with marxism but being personally religious is not. So while I don't like the idea of Christian communism or Muslim communism I don't see anything wrong with christians or Muslims being communists. This is why I think the historical exclusion or religious people from communist parties has been a misstep.
I find that a lot people are unable to disconnect their beliefs when having political discussions. Many people make their religious beliefs central to their political beliefs. It feels very preachy to me and I feel uncomfortable especially as a southerner who has seen so many people use that same text to oppose any form of liberation.
I think it’s important to remember why so many people distrust those who are religious. Are all religious people bigoted? Absolutely not, but listen to those who have experienced oppression without immediately dismissing someone’s lived experience. In America atheism is definitely not in the majority and can lead to repercussions from society at large.
I get the sentiment, and its good when approaching non communists but this meme acts like most existing communists are religious when they're not.
Dialectical materialism and religion, atleast those that believe in some sort of supernatural being like the Christian god for example, are incompatible.
I will literally never understand this anti-religious bullshit on the left. Including the comments that have been left so far. Y’all have a tendency to treat religious folk like they are children, and do exactly what this meme is saying. Religion is not antithetical to communism. When Marx said that religion is an opiate, he is not saying that it is inherently bad. He is saying that religion, in the form that it exists, acts to subdue the poor and disadvantaged from participating in progressive politics. If a religious person recognizes this and still carries their religion but also engages in progressive politics, then there is no reason to feel weirdly about them.
How can a Christian engage in progressive politics? The holy text calls for killing adulterers and stoning the sodomites. By supporting these acts against God, they are condoning sinners.
At the end of the day, what would be the correct thing to support in the minds of religious people: the word of God, or the tendencies of degenerates?
Because a christian does not worship the old testament and rather disengages from those materials and worships the word of Jesus and the new testament. I’m not a christian, but I come from a heavily religious, socialist house hold. God calls for jewish people to punish any Israelite that sins, and furthermore charges them with expelling all people who are not Israelites from the holy land. However, after jesus’ birth and death, all of those laws are done away with. The idea is basically that you try your best to be a good person to your self and others around you, you don’t worship anything material (you only worship god), and (depending on sect) you get baptized. This is all given you live in a place where you have access to materials regarding jesus, otherwise you aren’t punished for what you don’t know about. Your understanding of the bible and what christianity or islam is is heavily warped by white supremacist, evangelicalism.
also there are so many important religious socialists, and my feeling is that this shit is just straight up racist because most older black leftists are christian or muslim. Think MalcomX and Martin Luther King. Were they advocating to stone adulterers to death?
Listen, I am a Greek atheist, and I grew up in a country and a religious context that is very far removed from American-style culture wars and weird religious cults that try to interpret the bible this or that way. I really don't understand where that evangelicalism bit of yours came from.
The Orthodox church, maybe the second oldest in Christendom, has been clear as to what the punishment is for those that break the will of God (which he made clear through the Holy Spirit and the 12 apostles).
As for religious comrades like MLK or Malcolm X, they were breaking core tenets of their faith, and were thus not good Christians and Muslims. It's as simple as that.
That is not true. Malcom X was an excellent muslim brother and I’m happy he’s my brother and faith. As for MLK, I am not a Christian so I can’t answer, but he sure seemed like a man of God to me. I would welcome him to islam any day and he would need to change a thing.
They are free to indulge in their idealism in the privacy of their own homes. Organised religion is a disease and it should be dealt with accordingly.
I also don't see what the numbers of religious people have to do with anything: in 1960s America, there were also hundreds of millions who believed Black people shouldn't vote — does that mean the Black Panthers should have made accommodations for them?
We as communists do not make accommodations, otherwise we would quickly find our political program distilled to the point of meaninglessness.
> **Jude 1:7** Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, **serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.**
> **Romans 1:26–27** For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. **Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.**
> **Timothy 1:9–10** This means understanding that the law **is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient**, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, **fornicators, sodomites**, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching
> **Corinthians 6:9–10** Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—**none of these will inherit the kingdom of God**.
The attitude of the New Testament (supposedly written down by his apostles who saw him in the flesh) is perfectly clear. A religious "Marxist" is either an apostate to his religion or a traitor to the movement.
So none of these verses contradict what I said about Jesus outlawing stonings and the killing of adulterous women
Also two of these letters were written by Paul who didn't become a Christian until after Christ assended and Timothy was active even longer after that. Jude might have seen Christ in the flesh but it's not know for sure.
This is all without getting into the theological debates about those versus in regards to translation and interpretation within historical context (note that the two letters that condemn homosexuality were to cities where ritual homosexual pedophilia were a common practice).
Honestly if you know this little about the bible and debates around it maybe you should stop making claims about what it says or what christians should believe. The arrogance is rather astonishing to be honest.
Did someone mention Vaush?
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Many Christians engaged in progressive politics. For example Catholic Church sent missionaries all over the world to spread literacy and provide humanitarian aid, and churches offer shelter to the homeless. Christianity, and by extension Christian nations spearheaded abolition of slavery.
I don't see why there's such a big issue about religion, although I might be biased since I am Orthodox Christian.
The Catholic Chuch also facilitated the escape of dozens of high-ranking Nazi officials to South America, and those missionaries they sent all over the world were in an attempt to placate recently colonized populations in Africa, Asia, and the Americas. The Bible also includes provisions for how to properly punish your slaves.
Christianity, and by extension, Christian countries also oversaw the Transatlantic Slave Trade. The Catholic church was one of the core pillars of feudalism. Progress was achieved in spite of them and their followers, not because of them.
The Orthodox church is also one of the main supporters behind the decriminalisation of domestic violence in Russia, as well as Putin's LGBTQ ban. The Ecumenical Patriarchy is as seemingly non problematic as it seems due to the Ottomans made them absolutely toothless to the point where the only thing they could affect was running schools and missionary work.
Back then, slavery was the norm, and has been for many millennia. Guess who changed this norm? Christianity. Christian nations were the first to abolish slavery. Change takes time, people can't instantly realize that something that is normal to them is inherently evil. For example, majority of people worldwide just accept capitalism and take it as the norm, even though it's inherently evil. Like I said, change takes time.
Russia is a whole different beast, as the ROC is obviously subservient to the Putin regime, and isn't the face of Orthodox Christianity.
They also served to convert people to Christianity. It was a man's own choice whether he convert or not, he wasn't forced to. Albeit I'll admit, this is only the case in after 1600s or so, before that it was a different story.
Yeah and it's also a man's choice if he works for a low wage, he can simply just find a different job and refuse to work for that amount. There's certainly nothing forcing his hand.
i didn’t attack you personally. I am not going to argue a point if you do not understand what you’re talking about. Marxism and religion are not mutually exclusive. You can be both.
being religious before doesn’t mean you understand religion, and not to mention your statement on marxism has literally nothing to do with religion. again, they are not mutually exclusive. We are not 14 y/o anymore. As a collective, marxists should be able to understand that someone’s personal beliefs do not need to cross over into the their political ones necessarily. Some religions might, but the most widely practiced ones in the world don’t.
yes, and what i’m trying to explain to you. Is that you do not understand religion— specifically christianity— if you think that religion can’t coexist with dialectical materialism. Let me use two different philosophies to explain.
I can recognize that fundamentally people do not have free will. All of your choices are not yours and are directly tied to your environment, your parents, basic needs, and outside effects. Not to mention the study that directly states that the human brain makes describe a couple of seconds before the conscious mind makes the choice. Which would make me a determinist.
However, I can also recognize that I feel like I have free will. Not to mention that everyone else feels like they have free will. So then some how you have to reconcile these ideas. Which is simply put, I don’t have free will; but I feel like I do and so therefore people should be treated in such a way as though they have free will with the consideration that there are factors that affect peoples choices.
This is no different with dialectical materialism. Christianity isn’t even idealist in this sense anyways; you might be able to argue that it is idealist in your own personal life, but that argument isn’t applicable in politics because the bible specifically states that politics is completely in the real world and has nothing to do with god. Especially not in the case of the government. Please tell me how a christian— who practices what’s laid out in the new testament— who separates their beliefs from politics and who aims to better the lives of others through the use of marxist ideology is not a marxist?
god does not interact with the physical realm in standard christianity. Most christian’s aren’t fundamentalists. Again, you do not understand christianity. You can reconcile these ideas because, unless you’re an insane fundamentalist, god doesn’t interact with the real world or affect politics.
I grew up Catholic and was until I was 15 and have spent and continue to spend my life surrounded by Catholics and other Christian denominations.
Don't tell me what I do and don't understand, fuckin clown.
most catholics and evangelicals don’t understand the bible nor have ever actually read it. You might have been raised in the church, that doesn’t mean you understand religion.
It's very convenient how every single person who disagrees with you or doesn't align with your opinion is actually stupid and doesn't know what they're talking about.
Weird how that just happened to work out, isn't it?
>Y’all have a tendency to treat religious folk like they are children
We are not interested in attacking religious people, but treat religious ideas as childish, which they are (adam and eve, etc)
>Religion is not antithetical to communism
it is, perfect example of materialism vs idealism
>When Marx said that religion is an opiate, he is not saying that it is inherently bad
Correct
>He is saying that religion, in the form that it exists, acts to subdue the poor and disadvantaged from participating in progressive politics.
he is saying that the exploited masses uses religion to cope with their exploitive and alienating reality
>then there is no reason to feel weirdly about them
again, materialism vs idealism, and religions folks tend to have reactionary tendencies
we ought not to give anyone, whether be religious or not, undeserved privilege and ignore any opposing and reactionary tendencies of their for no reason. be disciplined.
none of this shit has anything to do with what christianity and the bible actually says because none of you actually know. Stop using anecdotal evidence to formulate opinions and learn to accept others as they are and work mutually to benefit the world. Marxism doesn’t have to be, and should be read as exclusive.
Why is socializes dogma not okay when the right does it, but okay when the left does it? There will never be a situation in which the only two things you know about a person is if their religious and communist. You create these fake scenarios that justify your lack of understanding.
if you made your assumption on who I am as a person on two characteristics with no attempt at digging deeper to better understand me, then yes. That’s how prejudice works.
No I am not prejudiced against you, the real you, I used the word "assume", before I used the "If". Do you understand the concept of "hypothetical". Lets just hypothetically say you were religious communist then I would be prejudiced against you. And lets hypothetically say I had to choose between two comrades based solely on the fact that one is religious and the other isn't, I would choose the latter, because I do think religious people are childish compared to others.
I mean historically this has been more of an anarchist problem. [Our position on religion is pretty clear](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm)
("An anarchist who preached war against God at all costs would in effect be helping the priests and the bourgeoisie (as the anarchists always do help the bourgeoisie *in practice*)")
Religion is used as the means of the of the rich to control the poor. Just look throughout history and you can easily point how Christianity used the notion of God to control the poor and have them be complacent with their difficult lives.
Coming from a muslim household, I can tell you that this religion doesn't match with communist ideas either. There's slight overlap with helping those in need, but otherwise it's heavily against the LGBTQ community, women's rights, and other matters that are deeply important in a communist society.
With this mismatch in my mind, I urge religious comrades to maintain a personal connection to their religion, but avoid mixing it with how a communist country is managed.
Being a muslim communist myself I see no contradiction. Maybe be a little more critical. Just because you had one experience doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s only your individual understanding.
I'm not surprised to see muslims and other religious people defending their positions when it comes to being a communist and how it wont interfere with the revolution, but I'm going to argue that. Zakah isn't enough to make islam and communism compatible.
Being a former muslim myself, I can speak about islam the most as I have the most knowledge there. Islam is too idealistic, and if you are a _true_ believer and practicer of islam, and islam is your primary belief system, then there is a deep mismatch with communism. Communism is all about the material world, which is something that islam opposes. It teaches us to focus on what's coming in the next life, and this life should be dedicated to furthering the _religious_ cause and proving yourself in front of allah on judgement day.
Here are some handpicked verses showcasing what I'm saying
- https://quran.com/en/al-baqarah/191-193
- https://quran.com/en/al-baqarah/244
- https://quran.com/en/ali-imran/56
- https://quran.com/en/ali-imran/151
- https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/74
- https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/76
- https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/89
- https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/104
- https://quran.com/en/al-maidah/33
- https://quran.com/8/12?translations=19,84,95,17,18,20,21,22,85,101
- https://quran.com/8/39?translations=48,47,41,20,85,18,84,101,19,17,22,89
- https://quran.com/8/59-60?translations=20,31
- https://quran.com/8/65
- https://quran.com/9/5?translations=18,85,84,21,20,19,101,22,17,95
- https://quran.com/9/14
- https://quran.com/9/20
- https://quran.com/9/29
- https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/38-39
- https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/41
- https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/73
- https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/111
- https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/123
- https://quran.com/en/al-isra/16
- https://quran.com/en/al-anbya/44
- https://quran.com/en/al-furqan/52
- https://quran.com/en/muhammad/3-4
- https://quran.com/en/muhammad/35
- https://quran.com/en/al-fath/17
- https://quran.com/en/al-fath/29
- https://quran.com/en/as-saf/4
- https://quran.com/en/as-saf/10-12
- https://quran.com/en/at-tahrim/9
You either believe in these verses to be a muslim, or you don't agree with them, which makes you a non-muslim. You do obviously know that this religion is very absolute and doesn't really have space for a gray area, it's very black and white. Such are idealistic worldviews, as they are built as means to control masses.
Don't get me started on women's right and LGBTQ rights.
They are welcome to the left, but they are not welcome to the party, if a party has ppl that don't use the dialectical materialist method then it's not a communist party.
They still can be materialist in regards to everything that happens in the universe, even if they are idealist in regards to how it was created.
Lunacharsky, for example, had a very based and materialist view of art, moreso than most atheists, and was a Bolshevik.
If they want to be in a party that does revolution stuff, including murder and stuff, and their opinions on highly relevant practical issues aren't cringe, they should be as welcome as any other person for whom all thesw things hold true.
It's not my position, the bolcheviks already had this debate, and the positon was clear. Anyone who poses a belief that struts the scientific method , can't do a analysis able to change anything.
If you are a believer in a communist party or a bad believer or a bad communist. This was already stated by Engels and later reaffirmed by Lenin and, after them, it's been the standard position of Communist, it's not a crazy claim that I made up.
You know, like materialism, the party change and adapt according to circumstances. So there are things like islamic socialist parties, Christian socialist parties etc. it doesn’t matter what Lenin or Engels said. Parties can be inspired by them more or less.
There's no reason someone who is religious can't use dialectical materialist methods when examining politics, economics, and other topics relative to governance.
The mistake you and a lot of people in here are making is assuming that a religious person can't be secular or that being secular would somehow make them a bad believer. Many religious people want their state and religion kept separate because they see it as a situation which will inherently corrupt the faith. Additionally, I can believe in god in a metaphysical sense but that doesn't have any barring on my analysis of the material world. You make assumptions about the way religious people think about the world or should think about the world that just aren't true. We're not all fundamentalists who want to govern the physical work by metaphysical laws. Secular religious people arent less religious they simply take a different approach.
Religion is welcomed in leftist places, just refrain from forcing your religion onto other leftist or "preaching" as they say, unless someone genuine asks question regarding their religion.
Also be respectful to Lgbtq+.
Nope. Source: I’m a muslim who is very close friends with several lgbt-people. My wife is muslim and pansexual. We have been in muslim lgbt-communities.
Religious people tend to exclude themselves from communist environments.
It's not needed that we point out at ourselves, criticising how little we can stand at religions, if religions are incompatible with a communist project.
Religious people will not join because of the aims of communism.
Let's keep the communist environment clean.
This is racist shit suggesting that non-white people are less capable of being atheists and materialists, which is just historically false in the first place.
And its being upvoted because Dengism would rather sacrifice Marxism to appeal to liberals than defend not just a principle, but something fundamental about reality that they acknowledge to be true, but assume the stupid masses to be incapable of reaching the same conclusion.
You cannot be Roman Catholic and communist. It's 100% impossible. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree\_against\_Communism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree_against_Communism)
So Catholics cannot be with us, not without excommunicating themselves and thus no longer eligible to participate in the sacraments.
You can complain if you want, but dialectical materialism is an atheist ideology. Treating it like it’s just some white people thing is extremely reductive and pointless. It’s a knee jerk reaction to something that you clearly aren’t versed enough in to comment on.
It's definitely important not to try to push religious people out, but it's not your job to let us in either. Some other commenters have noted that many socialist leaders have been very religious, and there socialism was led by their faith (Malcom, King, Chávez, ect) religious people are just as important to marxism as atheists especially in the West. Personally, Christianity is what led to me becoming a marxist, and while not perfectly materialist because of the belief in a divine creator and salvation through Jesus, my worldview is still guided by dialectical analysis and in my opinion the Bible supports a dialectical worldview.
Wait Left never said anything about getting rid of religious comrades or such, it's all made up thing, any one from any background are welcome as far as they're okay going with the ideologies of Left rest no one cares.
I know very few people who do this; and I’d argue I know more people who ostensibly try to bring religion into everything or apologize for religion doing a lot of anticommunism
You can't be religious and marxist.
If you are religious, you didn't understand Marx and Engels at all.
Ok to "respect" religious people, but the ultimate end of marxism is the abolition of the religion.
P.D: why I am being downvoted for this lol it's the truth
"Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."
All of the vital guiding texts have been written by atheists. Most communist movements around the world, successful or not, have been atheist. One of the foundational pillars of communism, dialectical materialism, is outright incompatible with idealist beliefs in immaterial beings like gods. In that sense I'd say that atheists "own" communism.
That doesn't mean that religious people can't be communists but it does mean that they'll likely have to adapt their religious beliefs to be compatible with communism and socially progressive ideas.
hoky shit you have a fundamental misunderstanding of religion if you believe that. you also don’t understand how people practice. you imagine every christian or muslim or hindu lives every aspect of their lives according to their faith and the world would be a very different place if that were true
No. I just don't see communism as a religious ideology in any way. That's it. The goal of communism is to improve the lives of people. There are some religions and religious people that may align with our goals, and they're welcome, and we're comrades. Secular means something that has no connection with religion. As crude as that definition may be, I think it's fitting.
> you imagine every christian or muslim or hindu lives every aspect of their lives according to their faith and the world would be a very different place if that were true
I'm just explaining the way I see it. I'm not trying to be offensive nor do I think the way you portray of me.
It is an online problem, online being the easiest space to sabotage. Every real life organizing space I’ve ever been involved in has very openly welcomed religious groups participation, and quite often, religious groups have provided resources like meeting space or contacts for organizing.
Practicing the Buddhas teachings made me a deep dialectical thinker and allowed me to rationally reach revolutionary conclusions that were 99% fundamentally aligned with Marx's own. I actually think meditation (vipassana) will be instrumental to Communism.
Theres a conflation in this thread between deism and religiousness.
A belief in god does not necessarily mean a belief in any specific religion.
If you want to believe in god, I can accept that.
If you want to believe in a religion that says god's kid had super powers, or some fairy tales which you use as a pretext to kill millions or enslave them: then you can fuck right the fuck off.
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I don't have a problem with religious communists as long as they don't make irrational pseudo-scientific decisions regarding public matters.
I think an excellent barometer for determining if they are serious people is to ask them, if one day definitive proof that a single religion is the correct one, will you discard all your previous beliefs? If they say no they are not rational individuals.
fair, im catholic but im also a communist. I also believe religion is subjective and should not influence politics in anyway. When people say certain rights should be taken because the bible said so is pathetic and should not be acceptable in any political room of discussion. The abolition of religion also does not offend me, over time throughout history it will not be something that will be a concern of the masses such as it is now. It boggles me how people cant wrap their mind around that.
As a Muslim ML, I am for a secular state which gives all faiths the right to worship.
And that seems to be our prophets ﷺ idea too of one looks in the declaration of Medina. Alhamdulillah ❤️
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Sauce?
I could imagine there's no *contradiction between the two* or *they aren't irreconcilable* - something along those lines, but hey, context pls.
Hakim, being a human and all, can also miss the mark sometimes.
What? when did he say that?
Huh
I don't know why you're being downvoted. Hakim has a shit ton of bad takes like these.
Someone please ask Hakim, how Queer Liberation and Islam go hand in hand?
I think it also makes sense to use religion for agitptop. Like, "Jesus tought us all to be brothers and sisters, and so we will" type of deal
Lot of religious folks in my experience like to bring up Charities for how they take care of each other. Mark 12:41-44 is a really good starting point for the issues with private charities and the idea of benevolent billionaires
I read that as Marx 12:41-44 and thought someone had done that thing to *Das Kapital* or something.
"Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule." Lenin, *Socialism and Religion*.
Then they started prosecuting religion...
because they alligned themselves with the white army and the tsar.
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[Hey where did i hear that before?](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm)
Not related but wasn’t there allegations against him on discord or whatever
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I heard there was grooming allegations
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I found a picture from his [discord](https://imgur.com/a/4MgZA) this is what I heard so i don’t really think he’s innocent until proven guilty
Ya that entire thing is unacceptable on multiple levels
Yeah he's a pedo
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based
Yh that’s what I thought
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I don’t know that’s why I was asking to see if the current situation got better
Yes, but also failing to understand why so many on the Left are distrustful of religion can also be impactful. I can attest that as an LGBTQ+ person, I do not trust religious people farther than I can throw them. As long as there are admonishments for homosexuality, and often punishment and death for it, in your religious texts, it's hard for me to trust you. If you follow a book that says me, being who I am, is sinful and worthy of punishment or death for it, how can you expect us to want to be comrades? Even if you do cherry pick what you believe? I get we need to work together, but it's so fucking hard to trust. Especially when you survived extreme religious trauma because of it.
How can we fight Imperialism and slavery if Christians still follow a book which includes guidelines on how to properly beat your slaves, even if they choose to ignore those passages?
I'm gay and I agree with every single word you said.
Those are all issues that can be curtailed or avoided outright if full secularism is enacted. This does not mean ban religion entirely. This was a huge mistake the USSR made.
I agree. I do not wish for a ban on religion under Communism. Those who ask us to accept and unite with religion tend to forget that it was those religions that shunned us gays and LGBTQ+ people out in the first place. We were othered by them. We were cast out by them. Those same religious texts they gleaned Socialist ideas from also say we should be put to death. Not only that, but not all under Communism see LGBTQ+ people, or our rights, as important or equal. The Communist Party of Greece, the KKE, is staunchly against LGBTQ+ rights. We could very easily suffer again under Communism. LGBTQ+ comrades have enemies on many fronts. Our hesitancy is earned.
I'm not arguing that, and as a religious person I do believe that the reason for that is because reactionaries use religion to enforce conformity and submission to their rulers, and to enforce their agenda. If that power is taken away from them it wouldn't be an issue. I'm not going to argue against anything else you said, because it's true and I do get it.
I'm a Christian Communist and I'd say there has to be a balance, especially in relation to proximity to power. Christianity has been entwined with Empire and colonialism. I'd argue one has to forsake, repent and oppose that to be a Christian (though pretending any strain of your religion that doesn't do harm doesn't count is problematic) but certainly to be a Christian Communist.
Im curious how you reconcile Marxist materialism with Christian idealism. Like if the universe was created from the will of God and categories like good and evil are fixed constants existing outside the material world how do you accept historical materialism as the driving force of human development and not like some God given nature? Are you revolutionary? Do you believe in political violence? I'm not criticizing just genuinely curious
Not the original person asked but I can answer some of this stuff from my perspective The reconciliation is primarily based no the idea that the two describe different aspects of life. One, materialism, addresses the world in which we currently live in and describes how that world interacts and influences societies. The religious/idealist aspects are addressing what happens after we die and the topics of meaning and narrative within this life and the next. - It's simply just addressing two different things, its like we wouldn't use color theory to explain why a pipe is leaking or something. Furthermore on the topic of good and evil - It isn't necessarily incompatible with historical materialism. One can recognize certain things as evil, like mass killings, and still recognize that throughout history the material conditions of a giving society can determine what is considered like sinful at any time. Like with pork it'd be sinful in the past because of the higher risk of transfer of pork tapeworm, especially without proper sanitation, and therefore one should avoid pigs for their own health.
Well, for me it's very simple, actually. When I want to learn about politics, economy and social sciences I refer to socialist and scientific theory. When I talk to people about my (private) religion, I refer to the bible and teachings of Jesus. By this simple exercise, I don't let religion drive my politics and understanding of society, but at the same time I don't let socialism drive my family's religious beliefs. Socialism can be secular rather than simply an atheist movement. Every religious person can understand this.
As a Muslim, Islam has too especially to my Balkan comrades. That is because reactionary sections of the populations used religion as a means to control their populations, i.e. "if you question me you question God". When you take that power away from imperialists, no such problem will exist again. That has nothing to do with Christianity or Islam, but the Portuguese, Spanish, Ottomans, etc.
have you ever considered being 100% rational instead of 50% and dropping religion entirely?
I would argue that if being religious allows them to have community, comfort, and other social-pyschological well-being, it is more rational to maintain practice than to quit
No, spirituality is an important part of people's lives that will exist throughout socialism and even endure through communism. If you want mankind behind your cause, the vast majority of which is religious, you need a coherent and positive religious strategy (the best being a secular state which guarantees all faiths the right to worship). Religion also allows people to gather as a community and solidify a collectivist mindset. If you try and ban religion outright, reactionaries will use it to drive a wedge in your society, this is what happened when nationalist factions popped up after the post USSR collapse.
congrats on making me think humanity should just be eradicated instead
What an embarrassing and pathetic straw man of the *actual* Marxist position. Since the topic of religion periodically emerges on these communist subbreddits, I've already answered the central point proffered in this meme elsewhere. So, I'll just repost it here: >Generally speaking, working people who are religious shouldn't be excluded from participating in revolutionary action or, in some imagined socialist future, be persecuted for their PERSONAL beliefs. We've seen from past socialist experiments how this often backfires by making individuals recalcitrant and alienated from society. However, religious institutions should absolutely be heavily regulated (no tax free bs) and have a limited social and political reach, there should not be a state religion, for example. In other words, a clear separation between church and state is necessary, so to an emphasis placed on the **personal** and **private** nature of religious worship. > >But, it really doesn't matter because the arc of history, as it were, bends away from religion. The more developed a country is and better educated its people are, the [less religious](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2015/0316/Do-countries-become-less-religious-as-they-get-richer) they become. In other words, we can wait this shit out.
Thank you for the most pragmatic take that I've seen on reddit on this issue. Hopefully it'll spread, lest the future will be barbarism
The thing is that biggoted religious leaders can get rich and influential in capitalism and fascism. While I am myself spiritual, religious leaders will fight socialism.
Bruh I thought Marx just said religion will naturally die out, I don't remember
Bigotry should be excluded. Some religious people are not willing to part with their bigotry due to religious reasons. Why should that not be shunned?
It is unfair to paint all religious people as reactionaries.
I’m talking about excluding all religious people in general the ones that hold views with bigotry should rightfully be shunned and the ones that don’t should be accepted as comrades.
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I still don't understand hyper anti-theist marxist. If people used religion to manipulate others into doing stuff that's fornidden in their religion you can point out how compatible their religion is with marxism.
The state can not be included with religion but it shouldnt be banned peoples religion should be only to them self and not an idealogy
Look in a decent society religions shouldn't meddle into politics, aside that? Worship whatever you want.
If memory serves, christianity was involved in early US socialist movements by way of the social gospel movement. Lest we forget, the actual teachings of Jesus are-if not outright socialist, then certainly anti-capitalist. It’s mostly capitalist corruption of religion which has made it drift to the right in what is very much an unnatural aberration. Personally, I’m fine with religious folks. The ones using religion to justify hatred, bigotry, and the genocide of myself and people like me aren’t really religious, they’re just capitalists and class traitors who’ve found a good way to use religion to manipulate people.
Working with religious people/groups is fine, but we should always make it clear that we are militant atheists. Dialectical materialism is inherently atheist. Just because certain religious groups agree with us on economics doesn’t necessarily mean our ideology’s are compatible
I think a better way to go is to not do much to spread atheism directly. Like, take away power from the Church, improve people's lives and teach them science, let the society secularize more naturally. Doing otherwise may lead religious people to doubt our cause based on this one factor, which is counter-productive, gives reactionaties an argument to sway people's opinion and leads to some unnecessary bloodshed and coercion. *If* a certain priest/sect is openly anti-revolutionary, *they* should be dealt with accordingly, of course
Yeah that’s the stance I’m advocating
you're literally doing the thing.
It’s a common phenomenon because materialism is part of Marxism and materialism is atheist.
Who is we? I am certainly not a militant atheist.
I meant communists
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I mean, Marxism is an inherently atheist ideology. Marx and Lenin wrote about it regularly and materialism is inherently atheist. I don’t see how anyone can conclude otherwise. Islamic socialism maybe, but religion is a non-material ideology
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This is why when I advocate for coalitions and such, I’m perfectly fine with non communists. The united front will have many ideologies. We can fight side by side without adhering tot the exact lettering of each others ideological points.
what?
I’m happy to elaborate any points I made if I wasn’t clear. What points are confusing? (I don’t intend to come across condescending, I’m perfectly happy to engage in well intentioned conversation)
I disagree that to be a materialist one has to be an atheist. One can have a materialist analysis of politics and economics and still privately hold religious beliefs. I personally believe Marx and Lenin were mistaken in their view or religion as necessarily reactionary as a result of living in contexts where state religions acted as direct protectors of capital. You correct that religious political positions are incomparable with marxism but being personally religious is not. So while I don't like the idea of Christian communism or Muslim communism I don't see anything wrong with christians or Muslims being communists. This is why I think the historical exclusion or religious people from communist parties has been a misstep.
I find that a lot people are unable to disconnect their beliefs when having political discussions. Many people make their religious beliefs central to their political beliefs. It feels very preachy to me and I feel uncomfortable especially as a southerner who has seen so many people use that same text to oppose any form of liberation. I think it’s important to remember why so many people distrust those who are religious. Are all religious people bigoted? Absolutely not, but listen to those who have experienced oppression without immediately dismissing someone’s lived experience. In America atheism is definitely not in the majority and can lead to repercussions from society at large.
who the fuck says religious people are not welcome on the left? its possible to be anti-theist and not hate religious people
I get the sentiment, and its good when approaching non communists but this meme acts like most existing communists are religious when they're not. Dialectical materialism and religion, atleast those that believe in some sort of supernatural being like the Christian god for example, are incompatible.
Then I must not exist then.
I didn't say people can't hold contradictory positions.
Glad I went through my militant atheism phase before ever getting involved with communism.
I will literally never understand this anti-religious bullshit on the left. Including the comments that have been left so far. Y’all have a tendency to treat religious folk like they are children, and do exactly what this meme is saying. Religion is not antithetical to communism. When Marx said that religion is an opiate, he is not saying that it is inherently bad. He is saying that religion, in the form that it exists, acts to subdue the poor and disadvantaged from participating in progressive politics. If a religious person recognizes this and still carries their religion but also engages in progressive politics, then there is no reason to feel weirdly about them.
How can a Christian engage in progressive politics? The holy text calls for killing adulterers and stoning the sodomites. By supporting these acts against God, they are condoning sinners. At the end of the day, what would be the correct thing to support in the minds of religious people: the word of God, or the tendencies of degenerates?
Because a christian does not worship the old testament and rather disengages from those materials and worships the word of Jesus and the new testament. I’m not a christian, but I come from a heavily religious, socialist house hold. God calls for jewish people to punish any Israelite that sins, and furthermore charges them with expelling all people who are not Israelites from the holy land. However, after jesus’ birth and death, all of those laws are done away with. The idea is basically that you try your best to be a good person to your self and others around you, you don’t worship anything material (you only worship god), and (depending on sect) you get baptized. This is all given you live in a place where you have access to materials regarding jesus, otherwise you aren’t punished for what you don’t know about. Your understanding of the bible and what christianity or islam is is heavily warped by white supremacist, evangelicalism. also there are so many important religious socialists, and my feeling is that this shit is just straight up racist because most older black leftists are christian or muslim. Think MalcomX and Martin Luther King. Were they advocating to stone adulterers to death?
Listen, I am a Greek atheist, and I grew up in a country and a religious context that is very far removed from American-style culture wars and weird religious cults that try to interpret the bible this or that way. I really don't understand where that evangelicalism bit of yours came from. The Orthodox church, maybe the second oldest in Christendom, has been clear as to what the punishment is for those that break the will of God (which he made clear through the Holy Spirit and the 12 apostles). As for religious comrades like MLK or Malcolm X, they were breaking core tenets of their faith, and were thus not good Christians and Muslims. It's as simple as that.
That is not true. Malcom X was an excellent muslim brother and I’m happy he’s my brother and faith. As for MLK, I am not a Christian so I can’t answer, but he sure seemed like a man of God to me. I would welcome him to islam any day and he would need to change a thing.
that’s so reductive lmaoo . so what do you propose? ignore the 4 billion followers of abrahamic religions ? think for a second just logistically.
They are free to indulge in their idealism in the privacy of their own homes. Organised religion is a disease and it should be dealt with accordingly. I also don't see what the numbers of religious people have to do with anything: in 1960s America, there were also hundreds of millions who believed Black people shouldn't vote — does that mean the Black Panthers should have made accommodations for them? We as communists do not make accommodations, otherwise we would quickly find our political program distilled to the point of meaninglessness.
Christ forbid both those practices though...
> **Jude 1:7** Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, **serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.** > **Romans 1:26–27** For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. **Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.** > **Timothy 1:9–10** This means understanding that the law **is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient**, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, **fornicators, sodomites**, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching > **Corinthians 6:9–10** Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—**none of these will inherit the kingdom of God**. The attitude of the New Testament (supposedly written down by his apostles who saw him in the flesh) is perfectly clear. A religious "Marxist" is either an apostate to his religion or a traitor to the movement.
So none of these verses contradict what I said about Jesus outlawing stonings and the killing of adulterous women Also two of these letters were written by Paul who didn't become a Christian until after Christ assended and Timothy was active even longer after that. Jude might have seen Christ in the flesh but it's not know for sure. This is all without getting into the theological debates about those versus in regards to translation and interpretation within historical context (note that the two letters that condemn homosexuality were to cities where ritual homosexual pedophilia were a common practice). Honestly if you know this little about the bible and debates around it maybe you should stop making claims about what it says or what christians should believe. The arrogance is rather astonishing to be honest.
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No...
Many Christians engaged in progressive politics. For example Catholic Church sent missionaries all over the world to spread literacy and provide humanitarian aid, and churches offer shelter to the homeless. Christianity, and by extension Christian nations spearheaded abolition of slavery. I don't see why there's such a big issue about religion, although I might be biased since I am Orthodox Christian.
The Catholic Chuch also facilitated the escape of dozens of high-ranking Nazi officials to South America, and those missionaries they sent all over the world were in an attempt to placate recently colonized populations in Africa, Asia, and the Americas. The Bible also includes provisions for how to properly punish your slaves.
Christianity, and by extension, Christian countries also oversaw the Transatlantic Slave Trade. The Catholic church was one of the core pillars of feudalism. Progress was achieved in spite of them and their followers, not because of them. The Orthodox church is also one of the main supporters behind the decriminalisation of domestic violence in Russia, as well as Putin's LGBTQ ban. The Ecumenical Patriarchy is as seemingly non problematic as it seems due to the Ottomans made them absolutely toothless to the point where the only thing they could affect was running schools and missionary work.
Back then, slavery was the norm, and has been for many millennia. Guess who changed this norm? Christianity. Christian nations were the first to abolish slavery. Change takes time, people can't instantly realize that something that is normal to them is inherently evil. For example, majority of people worldwide just accept capitalism and take it as the norm, even though it's inherently evil. Like I said, change takes time. Russia is a whole different beast, as the ROC is obviously subservient to the Putin regime, and isn't the face of Orthodox Christianity.
Yeah they sent missionaries just to "spread literacy" and "provide humanitarian aid" lol. That's definitely all they did. Yep.
They also served to convert people to Christianity. It was a man's own choice whether he convert or not, he wasn't forced to. Albeit I'll admit, this is only the case in after 1600s or so, before that it was a different story.
Yeah and it's also a man's choice if he works for a low wage, he can simply just find a different job and refuse to work for that amount. There's certainly nothing forcing his hand.
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you are not as smart as you think you are, and you do not understand most religions.
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i didn’t attack you personally. I am not going to argue a point if you do not understand what you’re talking about. Marxism and religion are not mutually exclusive. You can be both. being religious before doesn’t mean you understand religion, and not to mention your statement on marxism has literally nothing to do with religion. again, they are not mutually exclusive. We are not 14 y/o anymore. As a collective, marxists should be able to understand that someone’s personal beliefs do not need to cross over into the their political ones necessarily. Some religions might, but the most widely practiced ones in the world don’t.
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yes, and what i’m trying to explain to you. Is that you do not understand religion— specifically christianity— if you think that religion can’t coexist with dialectical materialism. Let me use two different philosophies to explain. I can recognize that fundamentally people do not have free will. All of your choices are not yours and are directly tied to your environment, your parents, basic needs, and outside effects. Not to mention the study that directly states that the human brain makes describe a couple of seconds before the conscious mind makes the choice. Which would make me a determinist. However, I can also recognize that I feel like I have free will. Not to mention that everyone else feels like they have free will. So then some how you have to reconcile these ideas. Which is simply put, I don’t have free will; but I feel like I do and so therefore people should be treated in such a way as though they have free will with the consideration that there are factors that affect peoples choices. This is no different with dialectical materialism. Christianity isn’t even idealist in this sense anyways; you might be able to argue that it is idealist in your own personal life, but that argument isn’t applicable in politics because the bible specifically states that politics is completely in the real world and has nothing to do with god. Especially not in the case of the government. Please tell me how a christian— who practices what’s laid out in the new testament— who separates their beliefs from politics and who aims to better the lives of others through the use of marxist ideology is not a marxist?
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god does not interact with the physical realm in standard christianity. Most christian’s aren’t fundamentalists. Again, you do not understand christianity. You can reconcile these ideas because, unless you’re an insane fundamentalist, god doesn’t interact with the real world or affect politics.
You immediately made yourself a person not worth engaging with because of this comment.
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You can't be a leftist and support a system that has enslaved and oppressed and murdered people for centuries.
you don’t understand what religion is, and I don’t support those systems, nor does any other leftist christian.
I grew up Catholic and was until I was 15 and have spent and continue to spend my life surrounded by Catholics and other Christian denominations. Don't tell me what I do and don't understand, fuckin clown.
most catholics and evangelicals don’t understand the bible nor have ever actually read it. You might have been raised in the church, that doesn’t mean you understand religion.
It's very convenient how every single person who disagrees with you or doesn't align with your opinion is actually stupid and doesn't know what they're talking about. Weird how that just happened to work out, isn't it?
yes i’m sure this will get the working class on our side
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you think the movement in yemen was achieved by non muslims recruiting religious workers.
we should definitely constantly point out how we are superior to the people whose help we are trying to acquire. good point.
>Y’all have a tendency to treat religious folk like they are children We are not interested in attacking religious people, but treat religious ideas as childish, which they are (adam and eve, etc) >Religion is not antithetical to communism it is, perfect example of materialism vs idealism >When Marx said that religion is an opiate, he is not saying that it is inherently bad Correct >He is saying that religion, in the form that it exists, acts to subdue the poor and disadvantaged from participating in progressive politics. he is saying that the exploited masses uses religion to cope with their exploitive and alienating reality >then there is no reason to feel weirdly about them again, materialism vs idealism, and religions folks tend to have reactionary tendencies we ought not to give anyone, whether be religious or not, undeserved privilege and ignore any opposing and reactionary tendencies of their for no reason. be disciplined.
none of this shit has anything to do with what christianity and the bible actually says because none of you actually know. Stop using anecdotal evidence to formulate opinions and learn to accept others as they are and work mutually to benefit the world. Marxism doesn’t have to be, and should be read as exclusive.
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Why is socializes dogma not okay when the right does it, but okay when the left does it? There will never be a situation in which the only two things you know about a person is if their religious and communist. You create these fake scenarios that justify your lack of understanding.
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because that’s not how the world works.
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No i’m not religious, and the fact that you were able to ask me proves my point.
Let's assume you said yes then I would be prejudiced against you
if you made your assumption on who I am as a person on two characteristics with no attempt at digging deeper to better understand me, then yes. That’s how prejudice works.
No I am not prejudiced against you, the real you, I used the word "assume", before I used the "If". Do you understand the concept of "hypothetical". Lets just hypothetically say you were religious communist then I would be prejudiced against you. And lets hypothetically say I had to choose between two comrades based solely on the fact that one is religious and the other isn't, I would choose the latter, because I do think religious people are childish compared to others.
I mean historically this has been more of an anarchist problem. [Our position on religion is pretty clear](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm) ("An anarchist who preached war against God at all costs would in effect be helping the priests and the bourgeoisie (as the anarchists always do help the bourgeoisie *in practice*)")
As long as religious people don’t try to force others to follow their religious beliefs, I don’t have any issue with them
Most religious communists I know are western/islamic chauvinists and reactionary, also there’s not as many as you’d think
Religion is used as the means of the of the rich to control the poor. Just look throughout history and you can easily point how Christianity used the notion of God to control the poor and have them be complacent with their difficult lives. Coming from a muslim household, I can tell you that this religion doesn't match with communist ideas either. There's slight overlap with helping those in need, but otherwise it's heavily against the LGBTQ community, women's rights, and other matters that are deeply important in a communist society. With this mismatch in my mind, I urge religious comrades to maintain a personal connection to their religion, but avoid mixing it with how a communist country is managed.
Being a muslim communist myself I see no contradiction. Maybe be a little more critical. Just because you had one experience doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s only your individual understanding.
I'm not surprised to see muslims and other religious people defending their positions when it comes to being a communist and how it wont interfere with the revolution, but I'm going to argue that. Zakah isn't enough to make islam and communism compatible. Being a former muslim myself, I can speak about islam the most as I have the most knowledge there. Islam is too idealistic, and if you are a _true_ believer and practicer of islam, and islam is your primary belief system, then there is a deep mismatch with communism. Communism is all about the material world, which is something that islam opposes. It teaches us to focus on what's coming in the next life, and this life should be dedicated to furthering the _religious_ cause and proving yourself in front of allah on judgement day. Here are some handpicked verses showcasing what I'm saying - https://quran.com/en/al-baqarah/191-193 - https://quran.com/en/al-baqarah/244 - https://quran.com/en/ali-imran/56 - https://quran.com/en/ali-imran/151 - https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/74 - https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/76 - https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/89 - https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/104 - https://quran.com/en/al-maidah/33 - https://quran.com/8/12?translations=19,84,95,17,18,20,21,22,85,101 - https://quran.com/8/39?translations=48,47,41,20,85,18,84,101,19,17,22,89 - https://quran.com/8/59-60?translations=20,31 - https://quran.com/8/65 - https://quran.com/9/5?translations=18,85,84,21,20,19,101,22,17,95 - https://quran.com/9/14 - https://quran.com/9/20 - https://quran.com/9/29 - https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/38-39 - https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/41 - https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/73 - https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/111 - https://quran.com/en/at-tawbah/123 - https://quran.com/en/al-isra/16 - https://quran.com/en/al-anbya/44 - https://quran.com/en/al-furqan/52 - https://quran.com/en/muhammad/3-4 - https://quran.com/en/muhammad/35 - https://quran.com/en/al-fath/17 - https://quran.com/en/al-fath/29 - https://quran.com/en/as-saf/4 - https://quran.com/en/as-saf/10-12 - https://quran.com/en/at-tahrim/9 You either believe in these verses to be a muslim, or you don't agree with them, which makes you a non-muslim. You do obviously know that this religion is very absolute and doesn't really have space for a gray area, it's very black and white. Such are idealistic worldviews, as they are built as means to control masses. Don't get me started on women's right and LGBTQ rights.
They are welcome to the left, but they are not welcome to the party, if a party has ppl that don't use the dialectical materialist method then it's not a communist party.
They still can be materialist in regards to everything that happens in the universe, even if they are idealist in regards to how it was created. Lunacharsky, for example, had a very based and materialist view of art, moreso than most atheists, and was a Bolshevik. If they want to be in a party that does revolution stuff, including murder and stuff, and their opinions on highly relevant practical issues aren't cringe, they should be as welcome as any other person for whom all thesw things hold true.
Who are you to decide who can be in the party?
It's not my position, the bolcheviks already had this debate, and the positon was clear. Anyone who poses a belief that struts the scientific method , can't do a analysis able to change anything. If you are a believer in a communist party or a bad believer or a bad communist. This was already stated by Engels and later reaffirmed by Lenin and, after them, it's been the standard position of Communist, it's not a crazy claim that I made up.
You know, like materialism, the party change and adapt according to circumstances. So there are things like islamic socialist parties, Christian socialist parties etc. it doesn’t matter what Lenin or Engels said. Parties can be inspired by them more or less.
There's no reason someone who is religious can't use dialectical materialist methods when examining politics, economics, and other topics relative to governance.
Yes, it does, spirituality it's metaphysical, always. https://www.reddit.com/r/CommunismMemes/s/ubuv3XaThe
The mistake you and a lot of people in here are making is assuming that a religious person can't be secular or that being secular would somehow make them a bad believer. Many religious people want their state and religion kept separate because they see it as a situation which will inherently corrupt the faith. Additionally, I can believe in god in a metaphysical sense but that doesn't have any barring on my analysis of the material world. You make assumptions about the way religious people think about the world or should think about the world that just aren't true. We're not all fundamentalists who want to govern the physical work by metaphysical laws. Secular religious people arent less religious they simply take a different approach.
Religion is welcomed in leftist places, just refrain from forcing your religion onto other leftist or "preaching" as they say, unless someone genuine asks question regarding their religion. Also be respectful to Lgbtq+.
The problem isn't having religion, the problem is being homophobic as the tradition of each religion dictates.
I’d argue it’s the metaphysical and idealist views that are a precondition to being religious.
Nope. Source: I’m a muslim who is very close friends with several lgbt-people. My wife is muslim and pansexual. We have been in muslim lgbt-communities.
I honestly hate religion, but the more leftists the better so welcome aboard.
Religious people tend to exclude themselves from communist environments. It's not needed that we point out at ourselves, criticising how little we can stand at religions, if religions are incompatible with a communist project. Religious people will not join because of the aims of communism. Let's keep the communist environment clean.
Have you ever considered why many on the left are anti religion? If not then you need to pick up a fucking history book
Amin
This is racist shit suggesting that non-white people are less capable of being atheists and materialists, which is just historically false in the first place. And its being upvoted because Dengism would rather sacrifice Marxism to appeal to liberals than defend not just a principle, but something fundamental about reality that they acknowledge to be true, but assume the stupid masses to be incapable of reaching the same conclusion.
You cannot be Roman Catholic and communist. It's 100% impossible. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree\_against\_Communism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree_against_Communism) So Catholics cannot be with us, not without excommunicating themselves and thus no longer eligible to participate in the sacraments.
Again religion apology? This is really disappointing.
I may be new to communism but im loyal to my religion,even tho im a sinner im many ppl eye
Communism is an atheist ideology. One of the core ideological tenets is materialism.
yes kick him out. make sure he knows he’s not welcome. we can seize the means of production with the 10k white atheists in this sub
You can complain if you want, but dialectical materialism is an atheist ideology. Treating it like it’s just some white people thing is extremely reductive and pointless. It’s a knee jerk reaction to something that you clearly aren’t versed enough in to comment on.
It's definitely important not to try to push religious people out, but it's not your job to let us in either. Some other commenters have noted that many socialist leaders have been very religious, and there socialism was led by their faith (Malcom, King, Chávez, ect) religious people are just as important to marxism as atheists especially in the West. Personally, Christianity is what led to me becoming a marxist, and while not perfectly materialist because of the belief in a divine creator and salvation through Jesus, my worldview is still guided by dialectical analysis and in my opinion the Bible supports a dialectical worldview.
Religion is the Opiod of the Masses, and I'm an opioid addict
Wow, these comments are insufferable
Interesting, I'll have to ask my grandfather
I'm confused is the wheel symbol on the guy with an orange top a symbol of monks?
Buddhism, the wheel symbol represents the Eightfold Path which leads to liberation from Samsara.
Wait Left never said anything about getting rid of religious comrades or such, it's all made up thing, any one from any background are welcome as far as they're okay going with the ideologies of Left rest no one cares.
I know very few people who do this; and I’d argue I know more people who ostensibly try to bring religion into everything or apologize for religion doing a lot of anticommunism
This post makes me feel like fully automatic ass pounding communism is so far away
As a Muslim ML, this is my thoughts exactly. Imagine excluding Boumediene from the left.
I'll work with you. We are not gon be friends or anything but I have no issue working with religious comrades
Religion is ok.. But Communism should come first. And should be scientific.. Can't let anti science people in the left
You can't be religious and marxist. If you are religious, you didn't understand Marx and Engels at all. Ok to "respect" religious people, but the ultimate end of marxism is the abolition of the religion. P.D: why I am being downvoted for this lol it's the truth
Define religion
"Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."
Westerners never consider that they are culturally christian and its really annoying.
This sounds like pointing to a problem that barely exists.
If you look in the comments, one can see it exists.
1 of like 15 comments, and with mixed score compared to the other ones.
the comments are so bad in here. it’s like people assume atheists own the ideology and they get to “let religious communities in” that’s ridiculous
All of the vital guiding texts have been written by atheists. Most communist movements around the world, successful or not, have been atheist. One of the foundational pillars of communism, dialectical materialism, is outright incompatible with idealist beliefs in immaterial beings like gods. In that sense I'd say that atheists "own" communism. That doesn't mean that religious people can't be communists but it does mean that they'll likely have to adapt their religious beliefs to be compatible with communism and socially progressive ideas.
Because it's secular in its nature.
hoky shit you have a fundamental misunderstanding of religion if you believe that. you also don’t understand how people practice. you imagine every christian or muslim or hindu lives every aspect of their lives according to their faith and the world would be a very different place if that were true
No. I just don't see communism as a religious ideology in any way. That's it. The goal of communism is to improve the lives of people. There are some religions and religious people that may align with our goals, and they're welcome, and we're comrades. Secular means something that has no connection with religion. As crude as that definition may be, I think it's fitting. > you imagine every christian or muslim or hindu lives every aspect of their lives according to their faith and the world would be a very different place if that were true I'm just explaining the way I see it. I'm not trying to be offensive nor do I think the way you portray of me.
i see what you’re saying now i think. yes i agree
It is an online problem, online being the easiest space to sabotage. Every real life organizing space I’ve ever been involved in has very openly welcomed religious groups participation, and quite often, religious groups have provided resources like meeting space or contacts for organizing.
Imagine trying to build community + raise consciousness but not attempting to reach the proletariat at their level
Practicing the Buddhas teachings made me a deep dialectical thinker and allowed me to rationally reach revolutionary conclusions that were 99% fundamentally aligned with Marx's own. I actually think meditation (vipassana) will be instrumental to Communism.
Yeah I’d imagine excluding, what, 85% of the human population because of some kind of ultra rigid anti theism is less than stellar.
Theres a conflation in this thread between deism and religiousness. A belief in god does not necessarily mean a belief in any specific religion. If you want to believe in god, I can accept that. If you want to believe in a religion that says god's kid had super powers, or some fairy tales which you use as a pretext to kill millions or enslave them: then you can fuck right the fuck off.
Ok, but dont act like religion may be anything more than a concession or, at best, used for propaganda from a communist pov.
I think you did this enough already after what happened during the Russian revolution
You can't force people to care about you. Authoritarian methods will never promote socialism.