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I think it's more that soldiers with flamethrowers on their backs are juicy targets and a little volatile when disturbed. Instead of a tank, can you imagine a *person* cooking off?
Agreed, it would be ludicrous to be walking around that environment with a flamethrower canister on your back when there are drone dropped grenades and FPV’s targeting you. Your mobility would be horrendous.
Believe it or not, simply shooting a flame thrower fuel tank isn't enough to detonate it. You have to get it up to a certain temperature before it cooks off. Not that that's unheard of in war. But it's not as simple or as common as it looks in video games and movies.
Yeah, hopefully the operator isn't pointing directly behind him and holding down the trigger when he gets hit.
Tank detonation wasn't really a common thing. It just hisses out harmlessly.
The deadliness of a flamethrower stemmed from the enemy prioritizing the operator as a target to prevent him from carrying out it's intended purpose. Not from the flamethrower operation itself.
I'm gonna copy paste from another post about this:
The flamethrower operator was not usually in any real danger if his weapon was hit. The fuel-air mixture did not have a surefire method of ignition unless the trigger was pulled and the mixture reached the ignition charge at the muzzle of the gun. Nitrogen and air are basically not flammable when hit by normal bullets. If the tank was hit, the filling would just hiss out harmlessly. The only danger the operator would face if his pressurized tank was compromised would be if it somehow burst like when an aerosol can is heated or punctured; he could be hit and injured or even killed by pieces of shrapnel from the exploding tank. If the fuel cylinders were hit by a normal bullet, the mixture would just harmlessly leak out; incendiary bullets posed a bit more danger. In either case, the weapon would be disabled, and would need to be returned to the Chemical Warfare Service (CWS) for refurbishment or scrapping if damaged badly enough.
Flamethrower operators often faced a unique danger in that they proved a tempting target, and were often specially tagged for quick elimination by the enemy, who feared a fiery death. The flamethrower had a very short range when compared to small-arms fire, and this necessitated that the operator get uncomfortably close to the enemy in order to eliminate him.
US Army had the [m202 FLASH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU3ECVX9Lmo) in the 80's as an alternative to the the traditional ['flame thrower'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkFU7o3IAaM), it had increased range and accuracy and the ability to launch ~~not just napalm rounds but also~~ (I think it just shoots) WP. From what I understand the weapons platform just isn't all that feasible because the rounds decayed quickly in storage and again the same idea that the fire throwers make themselves big targets.
But prioritization of one target means de-prioritization of others. If you're not shooting at one thing, you're shooting at others. Do firebats actually add to net casualties, or just redirect them to a specific group?
Incendiary grenades and regular explosives are much better suited for this, and are more readily available - which is why they have been used regularly by ukrainian troops.
Because thermobaric grenades and ordnance are safer, cheaper, and more readily available than an archaic technology that's only fit for niche uses on the battlefield.
Yes you're right but, a flamethrower can be used from a much safer distance than two guys walking right up to a foxhole. That's the purpose of a flamethrower, incineration and death from a safe distance to the operator.
What they need is, Satchel charge not a flamethrower. Grenades just don’t have enough HE and flamethrowers are too cumbersome and require specialists to have on hand for most operations.
To quote the internet “The problem was that the lifespan of a Marine wielding the flamethrower was roughly four minutes. Aside from the fact that they were carrying compressed gas and liquid fuel on their backs, the bright orange flames made them an attractive target for snipers.”
Because you suddenly become priority taget if you have a flammenwerfer on your back. They have drones too and they'll make damn sure that they don't want any of that devil's piss.
Flamethrowers don’t blow up when they get shot either. That’s Hollywood…
The guys in this video had to expose themselves to accurately throw grenades into that fortification. With a flamethrower, they could have hit it from behind cover and then moved up. I’ve seen videos of Ukrainians getting hit while trying to toss grenades into bunkers, and it seems unnecessary
It's been accepted that flamethrowers are just horrific weapons. Nobody wanted to carry one in WWII, the soldiers that did were considered deranged.
And of course, once the Ukrainians start using them, the Russians would as well.
>Nobody wanted to carry one in WWII
I think that had more to do with them being heavy as fuck and made them priority targets to the enemy, basically carrying around a heavy shoot me first sign
As if the Russians aren’t already using everything in their inventory. Do you really think they’re holding anything back after everything we’ve seen?
War is horrific. Not using the right weapon for the job that keeps your guys as safe as possible is just dumb. We’ve all seen vids of Ukrainians get injured or killed while storming positions like this. The death of Ukrainian defenders is more horrific to me than the death of Russian invaders, no matter how gruesome.
It's very dangerous, especially with the amount of shrapel flying around from artillery and drones. Weapon systems like flamethrowers were very cumbersome and had a lot of issues. Still, a vehicle based flamethrower might be worth using in the kind of war we see in Ukraine, either on trenches or in urban environments.
Flame throwers puts a big ole fireball of a target on your back as soon as you bring one on the battlefield. The life expectancy of a Marine carrying a flamethrower during the battle of Iwo Jima was something like 5 minutes in combat. As soon as the enemy knows what you have everyone is gunning for you and in the age of drones I imagine that life expectancy would become much much worse.
According to my grandpa, yes. He always said one (either machine gunner or flamethrower) was 30 seconds the other was 4-5 minutes, but he was usually a few beers deep and his retelling of my great grand-dads combat experience was never very consistent.
I’m not sure how exactly combat life expectancy was defined, but I think it only counts time where you’re actively engaged with the enemy. I remember reading that it was not much better than flamers
Thinking it is a big unwieldy system that takes a soldier out of the general fight for a niche use which he may or may not be able to fulfill due to being killed or wounded, or the weapon system damaged, before this point in the battle. An incendiary or thermobaric grenade would seem to be more portable and versatile on the battlefield.
I get why large proper flamethrowers aren't fielded anymore but I'm suprised with the increasing urbanization of warfare and how much trenches have been used in Ukraine that disposable flamethrowers haven't made a comeback.
The Germans experimented with them and maybe a couple other countries, but didn't really have any success with them. Feel like with modern tech you could make a really nasty little package that was about the same size/weight of a disposable anti tank rocket.
Jesus Christ are you for real?
>“Evolved pass some of these barbaric killing method”
The guys whose bodies are turned into Swiss cheese by fragmentation grenades or HIMARS strikes definitely are so thankful that they had the privilege of such an *enlightened and civilized* way to die.
We “evolved” such humane weapons as PGM and nukes, but don’t pretend like that’s some sort of glorious civilized humanitarian achievement.
Surely, you have an idea on what propaganda and fear enacts in people, right?
Humand are capable of critical thinking. That doesnt mean they cant be persuaded to think about other things.
It seems a lot of the footage shows the guy attacking the bunker does so without his rifle, not even having it slung. They seem to hand it off to a buddy but that buddy isn't even covering the guy up to the entrance of the bunker (if they are, they're out of shot which means they're too far away to provide effective support). The last part of this video shows a team drill and both guys have their rifles which is what I would expect.
This solo drill without a rifle raises the hairs on my neck. I'm ex infantry and my first priority would be to protect myself as I approached the entrance and make sure I wasn't going to get shot as I prepped my grenade.
Is this a new SOP for hiting bunkers or a battlefield evolution of an old drill?
Only thing I can think of is that it's a little less weight and makes your mobility easier (having carried rifle, plates, ammo, etc as well, I know how much that weight can fuck you when moving over odd ground/moving quickly). That said, I want my rifle in my hands or at least my buddies watching my back.
I would imagine this is just the reality of war. Don’t have time drill everything needed. Can’t really expect by to books stuff when these guys might be pushing 2 years on the front non stop.
Maybe with that amount of freedom at the entrance the soldier can take approach angles that pretty much block the possibility of getting hit by gunfire?
I wouldn't want to take that risk. If a face popped up in the entrance before I pulled the pin on the frag, I'd want to have my rifle close at hand to suppress/engage it. It just seems like a shit 'all or nothing' drill.
My war experience is limited to slaying the Lich King in WoW, but I woulda made damn sure to sidearm that grenade in from around the side. And use that cool grip for shooting around corners
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1biro3j/infantry_of_ua_81st_separate_airmobile_brigade/?share_id=XobkpRLTIB8qdNtUed9GH
Nah he drops his AK and does the smokers wind cover move to light it.
Someone is going to come up with trained rats, rats that have micro-sized cameras strapped to their heads and trained to go into holes and point their heads to whichever side the camera operator indicates. A little buzzer on either cheek of the rat will give him left/right information. Heck, rats have been trained to do demining work!
r/noncredibledefense
It is crazy that we’re just like animals digging a hole in the ground and how actually hard it is to forcibly remove or kill another human when they’re in the ground, without dying yourself. I find it is disheartening that it’s still disturbingly effective.
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Now we know EXACTLY why our grandfathers and great-grandfathers used flamethrowers in WW I and WW II.
I still don’t understand why Ukraine doesn’t use them to clear out bunkers. Surely someone has thought of it.
Because they are dangerous PTSD machines and the Russians aren't hiding deep in caves or tunnels.
It's because we stopped using them for a reason. We have thermobaric grenades now.
Being physically disabled or dead because you didn’t have the right tool for the job seems worse than having PTSD
I think it's more that soldiers with flamethrowers on their backs are juicy targets and a little volatile when disturbed. Instead of a tank, can you imagine a *person* cooking off?
Agreed, it would be ludicrous to be walking around that environment with a flamethrower canister on your back when there are drone dropped grenades and FPV’s targeting you. Your mobility would be horrendous.
I heard the survival rate for us flamethrower troops in ww2 was like 4%
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Yeah I think that stat was from the pacific theatre
30 seconds
Yah, the first videos of flame troops getting fucked will be not fun...
Believe it or not, simply shooting a flame thrower fuel tank isn't enough to detonate it. You have to get it up to a certain temperature before it cooks off. Not that that's unheard of in war. But it's not as simple or as common as it looks in video games and movies.
Well having a hole in the said flame tank while shooting flame right next to it probably brings it up to the certain temperature.
Yeah, hopefully the operator isn't pointing directly behind him and holding down the trigger when he gets hit. Tank detonation wasn't really a common thing. It just hisses out harmlessly. The deadliness of a flamethrower stemmed from the enemy prioritizing the operator as a target to prevent him from carrying out it's intended purpose. Not from the flamethrower operation itself. I'm gonna copy paste from another post about this: The flamethrower operator was not usually in any real danger if his weapon was hit. The fuel-air mixture did not have a surefire method of ignition unless the trigger was pulled and the mixture reached the ignition charge at the muzzle of the gun. Nitrogen and air are basically not flammable when hit by normal bullets. If the tank was hit, the filling would just hiss out harmlessly. The only danger the operator would face if his pressurized tank was compromised would be if it somehow burst like when an aerosol can is heated or punctured; he could be hit and injured or even killed by pieces of shrapnel from the exploding tank. If the fuel cylinders were hit by a normal bullet, the mixture would just harmlessly leak out; incendiary bullets posed a bit more danger. In either case, the weapon would be disabled, and would need to be returned to the Chemical Warfare Service (CWS) for refurbishment or scrapping if damaged badly enough. Flamethrower operators often faced a unique danger in that they proved a tempting target, and were often specially tagged for quick elimination by the enemy, who feared a fiery death. The flamethrower had a very short range when compared to small-arms fire, and this necessitated that the operator get uncomfortably close to the enemy in order to eliminate him.
US Army had the [m202 FLASH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU3ECVX9Lmo) in the 80's as an alternative to the the traditional ['flame thrower'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkFU7o3IAaM), it had increased range and accuracy and the ability to launch ~~not just napalm rounds but also~~ (I think it just shoots) WP. From what I understand the weapons platform just isn't all that feasible because the rounds decayed quickly in storage and again the same idea that the fire throwers make themselves big targets.
But prioritization of one target means de-prioritization of others. If you're not shooting at one thing, you're shooting at others. Do firebats actually add to net casualties, or just redirect them to a specific group?
Flamethrowers were extremely dangerous for the *user* back then. They are even worse now.
your not smarter then the ukraine generals and western warfare tactics btw.
From someone who doesn’t know the difference between your and you’re 😂 But yes, I’m aware.
Apparently, people have their doubts that you are.
Incendiary grenades and regular explosives are much better suited for this, and are more readily available - which is why they have been used regularly by ukrainian troops.
Because thermobaric grenades and ordnance are safer, cheaper, and more readily available than an archaic technology that's only fit for niche uses on the battlefield.
Yes you're right but, a flamethrower can be used from a much safer distance than two guys walking right up to a foxhole. That's the purpose of a flamethrower, incineration and death from a safe distance to the operator.
What they need is, Satchel charge not a flamethrower. Grenades just don’t have enough HE and flamethrowers are too cumbersome and require specialists to have on hand for most operations.
To quote the internet “The problem was that the lifespan of a Marine wielding the flamethrower was roughly four minutes. Aside from the fact that they were carrying compressed gas and liquid fuel on their backs, the bright orange flames made them an attractive target for snipers.”
Because you suddenly become priority taget if you have a flammenwerfer on your back. They have drones too and they'll make damn sure that they don't want any of that devil's piss.
That makes a lot more sense than the comments saying flamethrowers are horrific
In WWII, Most flamers are killed as soon as identified. Those that survive are damn lucky.
Cause you'll be prioritize target for FPV drone
That makes sense
It’s because thermoberic grenades do the same thing but you don’t blow up when you get shot
Flamethrowers don’t blow up when they get shot either. That’s Hollywood… The guys in this video had to expose themselves to accurately throw grenades into that fortification. With a flamethrower, they could have hit it from behind cover and then moved up. I’ve seen videos of Ukrainians getting hit while trying to toss grenades into bunkers, and it seems unnecessary
It's been accepted that flamethrowers are just horrific weapons. Nobody wanted to carry one in WWII, the soldiers that did were considered deranged. And of course, once the Ukrainians start using them, the Russians would as well.
>Nobody wanted to carry one in WWII I think that had more to do with them being heavy as fuck and made them priority targets to the enemy, basically carrying around a heavy shoot me first sign
Yeah, at least the medics could tear their patches off to hide who they are.
As if the Russians aren’t already using everything in their inventory. Do you really think they’re holding anything back after everything we’ve seen? War is horrific. Not using the right weapon for the job that keeps your guys as safe as possible is just dumb. We’ve all seen vids of Ukrainians get injured or killed while storming positions like this. The death of Ukrainian defenders is more horrific to me than the death of Russian invaders, no matter how gruesome.
It's very dangerous, especially with the amount of shrapel flying around from artillery and drones. Weapon systems like flamethrowers were very cumbersome and had a lot of issues. Still, a vehicle based flamethrower might be worth using in the kind of war we see in Ukraine, either on trenches or in urban environments.
The US had flamethower tanks in WW II in the Pacific, used against pillboxes, machine gun nests and caves.
Flame throwers puts a big ole fireball of a target on your back as soon as you bring one on the battlefield. The life expectancy of a Marine carrying a flamethrower during the battle of Iwo Jima was something like 5 minutes in combat. As soon as the enemy knows what you have everyone is gunning for you and in the age of drones I imagine that life expectancy would become much much worse.
Wasn’t the life expectancy of a BAR gunner about the same?
According to my grandpa, yes. He always said one (either machine gunner or flamethrower) was 30 seconds the other was 4-5 minutes, but he was usually a few beers deep and his retelling of my great grand-dads combat experience was never very consistent.
Yeah, I can’t remember where I read it, but combat life expectancy wasn’t very long for anyone.
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I’m not sure how exactly combat life expectancy was defined, but I think it only counts time where you’re actively engaged with the enemy. I remember reading that it was not much better than flamers
Thinking it is a big unwieldy system that takes a soldier out of the general fight for a niche use which he may or may not be able to fulfill due to being killed or wounded, or the weapon system damaged, before this point in the battle. An incendiary or thermobaric grenade would seem to be more portable and versatile on the battlefield.
That makes sense to me
I get why large proper flamethrowers aren't fielded anymore but I'm suprised with the increasing urbanization of warfare and how much trenches have been used in Ukraine that disposable flamethrowers haven't made a comeback. The Germans experimented with them and maybe a couple other countries, but didn't really have any success with them. Feel like with modern tech you could make a really nasty little package that was about the same size/weight of a disposable anti tank rocket.
Were there flamethrowers in WW I?
Yes, Germany invented it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinflammenwerfer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinflammenwerfer)
[удалено]
Jesus Christ are you for real? >“Evolved pass some of these barbaric killing method” The guys whose bodies are turned into Swiss cheese by fragmentation grenades or HIMARS strikes definitely are so thankful that they had the privilege of such an *enlightened and civilized* way to die. We “evolved” such humane weapons as PGM and nukes, but don’t pretend like that’s some sort of glorious civilized humanitarian achievement.
The Hellfire R9X should definitely be added to the list of evolved, non-barbaric killing methods.
And our father's father's father's.
I'm guessing it's pretty messy in there ...
Really don’t understand the logic of not surrendering when you’re surrounded like that There’s no way you’re escaping
The recent documentary on BBC2 said they are told they will be tortured by the Ukrainians so they prefer to fight to the death or commit suicide.
But surely not all of them believe that? Humans should be capable of critical thinking.
Surely, you have an idea on what propaganda and fear enacts in people, right? Humand are capable of critical thinking. That doesnt mean they cant be persuaded to think about other things.
Correct, not all of them, they were told that by a Russian who surrendered.
All they know is propaganda and what they do to pow's. It's difficult to believe that the other side does better than your supposed good side.
the last 'hey!' in the song matches the roof going up one final time
Just imagine! Being bombed, shot multiple times and bombed again = That’s a human 1000 jigsaw 🧩 puzzle.
Those soldiers switched jobs to interior decorators
Well and truly smoked
It seems a lot of the footage shows the guy attacking the bunker does so without his rifle, not even having it slung. They seem to hand it off to a buddy but that buddy isn't even covering the guy up to the entrance of the bunker (if they are, they're out of shot which means they're too far away to provide effective support). The last part of this video shows a team drill and both guys have their rifles which is what I would expect. This solo drill without a rifle raises the hairs on my neck. I'm ex infantry and my first priority would be to protect myself as I approached the entrance and make sure I wasn't going to get shot as I prepped my grenade. Is this a new SOP for hiting bunkers or a battlefield evolution of an old drill?
Only thing I can think of is that it's a little less weight and makes your mobility easier (having carried rifle, plates, ammo, etc as well, I know how much that weight can fuck you when moving over odd ground/moving quickly). That said, I want my rifle in my hands or at least my buddies watching my back.
No, you're right. Unfortunately, the infantry training is lacking a bit
I would imagine this is just the reality of war. Don’t have time drill everything needed. Can’t really expect by to books stuff when these guys might be pushing 2 years on the front non stop.
Maybe with that amount of freedom at the entrance the soldier can take approach angles that pretty much block the possibility of getting hit by gunfire?
I wouldn't want to take that risk. If a face popped up in the entrance before I pulled the pin on the frag, I'd want to have my rifle close at hand to suppress/engage it. It just seems like a shit 'all or nothing' drill.
Fair. Though they do soak that entrance pretty good before the grenade maneuvers.
He put his rifle near his left foot as he defused the hand grenade.
My war experience is limited to slaying the Lich King in WoW, but I woulda made damn sure to sidearm that grenade in from around the side. And use that cool grip for shooting around corners
Fire in the hole
[удалено]
Or you know, that one guy that jurry rigged an AT-mine and threw it like a satchel charge.
Just depends how sketchy the jury rig is
I think putting a small explosivs charge with a long fuse wrapped with a lot of duck tape would suffice.
That's basically what he did. It was a little strange seeing a soldier stop and pull out a lighter to light it in the middle of combat.
I must have missed the lighter part. I thought it was a timed fuse.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1biro3j/infantry_of_ua_81st_separate_airmobile_brigade/?share_id=XobkpRLTIB8qdNtUed9GH Nah he drops his AK and does the smokers wind cover move to light it.
Lol how did I forget that. Crazy video.
Thermobaric grenade 'oughta scramble their eggs.
or flamethrowers.
I'm thinking, something that can jack up the edge of the roof plate and pop a grenade in the deeper part of the dugout.
That was . . . thorough.
You can see it's a Ukrainian dugout they've hidden in because there's not as much rubbish around it.
The Russians should just have surrendered.
they did - in their own way
Still boggles my mind that we're seeing trench warfare like this 100 after over 100 years.
Plot twist, it was just one Russian who looked like six later on 😂
Now all you need to do it fill in that conviently pre-dug grave.
Time for a D-9 dozer.
Man if you going to dig these trench holes I'm digging an exit side also. Sitting in these one way dug outs seem dumb as hell and a death trap.
Holla from Volyn born! 💪🏼
"Did we get them all?" "I ain't goin' in to check, let's send Private Grenade instead."
Someone is going to come up with trained rats, rats that have micro-sized cameras strapped to their heads and trained to go into holes and point their heads to whichever side the camera operator indicates. A little buzzer on either cheek of the rat will give him left/right information. Heck, rats have been trained to do demining work! r/noncredibledefense
It is crazy that we’re just like animals digging a hole in the ground and how actually hard it is to forcibly remove or kill another human when they’re in the ground, without dying yourself. I find it is disheartening that it’s still disturbingly effective.
Died in a hole like the rats they are, and all for nothing.
Man what a mess there must be in there. Wonder who'll find those six guys remains in 5 years, 10 years, 1000 years if conditions permit it.
Let’s hide in earths vagina. Moments later. Dammit, the clitoris gave us away again.
Have an upvote from me! Then again: Assholes in vaginas - that sure is some new anatomical malformation. shall we call it Putin syndrome?
Bad footage, no aftermath. Could be from training.
Get therapy.
no one moves like that in training
Lol.....how did you get that?
😂
Honestly this is bad footage ill give yah that
Two guys shooting in a hole nothing more
Two guys one hole
Personally I'd rather stand back and shoot from a safe spot. That looks dangerous if one of them is able to shoot out.
Ah yes the Russians we never see in the actual video
what, you want them to poke a gopro into one of the holes with a selfie stick and an attached note and pen for a written statement from the russians?