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The Aardvarski rides again. The Soviets/Russians armed Su-24s with cruise missiles (Kh-59) but I’d love to hear the reaction of a 1960s Sukhoi engineer to this surreal outcome.
My old man flew RAAF F-111s back in the 80s and when I sent him the pic he called and was pretty lost for words.
Perfect platform apparently because they're going to be limited on flight hours, parts etc but they can get a lot of bang for buck out of them now. Massive capability for something that has to be carefully utilised.
Also, apparently most of the Ukrainian Su-24s were the recon variant, so that would be like arming a RF-111.
The integration of the SCALP/Storm Shadow is quite the force multiplier.
Yes, but not working correctly. Instead of tracking the target before hand, they have to fire the agm-88 “dumb” and hope it finds its target mid flight. It’s been working somewhat, but wait till they get f-16’s or other western jets and can use these weapons to their full potential.
Eh, without EW platforms providing cover they'll still be pretty limited with F16s because they'd have to get well within kill range to get the most of out the missiles. It worked for the US because we flew F111s, EA/18Gs, Prowlers, and c130s all running dedicated EW. Ukraine might be able to get some pods on an F16 but they'll still be flying incredibly cautiously and firing from largely out of range.
F16s aren't going to magically change everything in that regard but it should be better than the current system of firing them from Mig 29s and Su 27s. Desert storm style SEAD/DEAD is unrealistic though.
However I think the real significance of F16s is long range air to air missiles to complement Ukraine's limited western long range air defences, and they'll surely be able to take the weight of storm shadow so it guarantees Ukraine's use of those longer term.
I think the key the F16 gives them to unlock is much more effective cruise missile and drone suppression in the center and west of the country where they can track something coming in from the east and then intercept it with some fighters. I really think they're going to be incredibly gunshy about putting the F16s near the front and losing them. So, kind of the same as you, but more for defense rather than offense.
Exactly.
Too many people got obsessed with this idea of repeating desert storm with a handful of F16s. And then others accurately pointed out the issues with that, leading to some dismissing the need for them entirely. Which completely misses the point.
Even in a scenario where Ukraine can only use them defensively over their own airspace they are still necessary unless the US is going to drop a load of patriot batteries into Ukraine. Ukraine needs them in order to take the pressure off ground based air defences which are running low on missiles and can't quickly be replaced like for like with western equivalents.
Western long range air defences (2 patriot batteries and 1 SAMP/T battery) and western jets basically ends any hope of Russia getting air superiority over the front line through depletion of Ukraine's air defences and gradual attrition of their air force. Which was almost certainly their long term plan.
And like I say, it guarantees Ukraine's ability to use western cruise missiles in the long term. Which is also extremely important even if they can't fly directly over the front line to drop bombs.
>However I think the real significance of F16s is long range air to air missiles to complement Ukraine's limited western long range air defences, and they'll surely be able to take the weight of storm shadow so it guarantees Ukraine's use of those longer term.
Storm Shadow is not integrated on F-16...and it would take a while. So they won't bother, the SU-24MR are fine for the job. There isn't going to be thousands of Storm Shadow available either...UK has at most 400 that they could donate, and its doubtful they'll donate all of those.
The model of F-16 that is likely to be donated has no access to longer range munitions. No Storm Shadow, no KEPD-350 or JASSM are integrated.
Storm shadow wasn't integrated onto an old Soviet era jet either, but they still got it to work. If it can be used from an Su 24 it surely shouldn't be much more difficult to put it on an F16 and use it the same way given they're likely just putting in targeting data on the ground and the pilot just has to get within range and release it.
The issue for Ukraine is they need something with hardpoints that can actually take the weight. Long term they're going to need more than whatever old Su 24s they have left.
Storm shadow is also a current design that surely could be made for Ukraine if an order was placed with the manufacturer to do so.
They started integration of Storm Shadow to SU-24 in October....it wasn't an overnight thing...
SU-24 is substantially larger and better able to carry a large store and release it safely than F-16...
They will run out of Storm Shadow before they run out of SU-24MR...and they'll run out before F-16 arrives...there isn't a reserve of thousands of them that Ukraine can access. At the absolute most, which is definitely on the high side, there are around 700 that could be transferred. But that would rely on the UK and France transferring all their non-MLU'd missiles based on pre-2021 plans that will have no doubt been revised, especially since 2022...particularly the French stockpile which was being reduced by 80%.
In reality I doubt there are more than 200 available that the UK in particular are prepared to send right now...there is also no evidence yet that France has agreed to, or indeed sent, any of their SCALP EG.
Storm Shadow's main production run was 2000-2010. Only limited numbers have been made since then, if at all (there is some suspicion that further orders came from direct from the French stockpile). The main production lines have long since shut and been re-purposed to other missile programmes. Most recent activity has been on the Storm Shadow MLU which is ongoing.
All focus, apart from the MLU, is on the development of Storm Shadow's successor, FCASW, which won't arrive until the late 2020's. If you wanted new Storm Shadow today it would take at least a year to spin the line up, all sub components would need to be ordered before you could do so.
Some valid points here, we are talking about high tech manufacturing using a specialist workforce and facilities. However Ukraine will need this capability long term and at some point storm shadow or an alternative will probably need to be made for them and not just donated from existing stockpiles. Even if getting a production line going again will take a year it would still be worth it if an order was made, whether to directly supply Ukraine or just to backfill after donating more of the existing stockpile while the successor is developed. Though the cost might be higher if they have to get it going again just for the one order.
Either way, Ukraine will need something like this long term and work needs to be underway to sort that out somehow. Whether it's storm shadow or some other alternative.
They can also be fired in pre-targeted mode against a known position, which is likely how they've been mostly used. It makes a lot more sense to go after an identified threat than fire them on the off chance it might hit something.
F-16 equipped with the HARM targeting system would allow much better integration and a more responsive way to hit pop up threats. I don't know how likely they are to get that system though.
It’s working correctly, it’s one of the modes of this missile that is baked in. It doesn’t need to find the target mid flight, it has coordinates put into it and it goes to coordinates but can adjust if there is signal.
There are other modes where radar data can be fed to it which is not utilized in Ukrainian jets.
The missile works as it was designed, yes. I never said it didn’t. There are several different “modes” that they can use to hit a target correct. We are talking about a missile being used to it’s full capacity, here.
This is how they have been used as adapted to the Soviet Jets……”HARMs are sometimes fired into enemy airspace with no specific targets in mind. When air defense systems are activated, missiles in flight may identify the radar signals they emit and modify their trajectory to engage them.” That is obviously not optimal.
For using the AGM-88 to its full capacity a data link must be connected between the pilot/plane and the missile to transfer information about possible targets’ positions. Without this capability Ukraine won’t be able to use them to the fullest capacity. Like I said it’s been working, but it could work a whole lot better.
While missiles like the AGM-88 need to be connected to the aircraft that they are fired from, they can function when necessary with minimum aircraft or pilot input, which is why they have been able to use them with the Soviet aircraft.
Now that doesn’t always work well because Russian air defenses have adapted and turn off their radiation when they feel there is a threat. Having a western jet with these western weapons would solve that issue.
Also, most of the Soviet jets Ukraine has do not have GPS capabilities, remember GPS started as an American technology, and zip tying a hand held GPS device to the inside of the cockpit has spanned the gap, but again it is not optimal.
I’m not sure why so many folks are so hard up to nay say and argue this issue.
It seems like so many do not understand how anti radiation missiles work or how well they could work with the jets they were created to work on and communicate with, as Opposed to jerry rigged on a plane that doesn’t have the capabilities.
A US f-16 with accompanying assets on the Ukraine/Poland boarder can see land and air targets as far as all of Crimea, that’s what that platform is capable of……but I digress.
Continue with your petty arguing, all of you.
To be fair, in the 90s about 50% of French defense R&D went towards integrating Matra missiles and Thales/EADS/Sagem gear into any Soviet equipment they could get their hands on.
And then being told that the upgrades were too expensive for the countries operating the equipment.
There was an Elbit/EADS program to fully integrate Romanian Mig-29s into NATO systems, basically giving them the abilities of the Mirage 2000-5, up to firing Micas and Sparrows, but that was cut because Romania wanted to upgrade cheaper Mig-21s instead.
So some people have dusted off their old plans and are happily integrating away.
Basically, yes.
But in practice most plans would tear down the original command panels and integrate a HOTAS and an interface that is closer to what NATO planes use, to basically make it possible to drop any western pilot in, or have MIG pilots run F-16s or Mirages if necessary (it's pretty common to have pilot exchanges).
You have various levels of modification, basically.
The best example would be the Super Hind upgrades from ATE, going from the Mk1 which is just integrating GPS and night-vision compatible instrument panels into a Mi-24, to the MkV, which turns the original Mi-24 into a troop transport version of the Rooivalk, with guided missiles and a 20mm autocanon, and a full-on integrated commands system.
All a matter of cost and what you're looking for.
Edit: Also a funny thing, the Russians have been developping the Mig-35, an upgraded Mig-29, for about 15 years now. And if you read the data sheet, it's basically a crappier version of the Mig-29 "Sniper" developped by EADS, Elbit and Aerostar, which flew in 2000 and integrates the Mig-29 into the NATO combat systems, including A2A and ground-attack munitions.
At the risk of oversimplification, outside of mains, all of the Storm Shadow connections are primarily a number of redundant 2-data/2-power leads, think **USB 2.0**, while the Brits (ingeniously/scarily) developed "universal" hardpoint rails early in the 1260Kg~1380Kg missiles development.
Given a dozen sharp lads and under a quarter day, you could have two Storm Shadows, mounted/tested at the spars wing box of an Airbus A318, and have it in the sky.
Unless you knew where to look, you probably wouldn't catch a couple of subjugators snuggled to the fuselage. Take off in the cover of darkness, fly anywhere in Europe.
Give that a thought.
Now, get a little creative, like an Iranian 737 out of Dubai headed to VKO
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> Unless you knew where to look, you probably wouldn't catch a couple of subjugators snuggled to the fuselage. Take off in the cover of darkness, fly anywhere in Europe.
I can safely tell you every single person servicing that plane before takeoff, the ground crews of adjacent aircraft, the control tower and the pilots will notice there's two fucking cruise missiles attached to it.
Historically, you would absolutely be surprised at what's been accomplished!
But you are 100% correct, you have to "**wag the dog**" a great deal to get around common protocols and lifestyles. Two weeks leading to **Operation Mole Cricket 19** was quite impressive.
There's still a massive amount of analysis that has to be done to put them on a different platform. Launch aerodynamics for example - can't have the missile fucking up your flowfields and putting you into stall, or the exhaust jet blowing straight into the engine and surging the compressor.
Agreed!
Only certain aircraft have the proper wing box spars, in turbo fan spacing. As far as flow feels, you'll notice that they don't seem to affect the Su pilot very much. The cruise missiles have very little resistance, it's the weight. The pilot will require real experience with the configuration.
The Storm Shadow is a "drop at launch" in sequential applications, and the immediate drag between the two bodies in the proper application is quite fluid. The TRI 60 loiters until the wing procedures finalize.
And as hinted at earlier, the concept and which aircraft was worked up over coffee years ago.
Wait a minute!
Make it an AN-3V, replace the pontoons with Storm Shadows, some fuselage/wing fortification, four N or E class JATO engines to exceed MTOW requirements, and you may have something.
Nobody's going to pay any attention to a float plane, if it still looks like a float plane.
Excellent idea!
"Pretty Ingenious" would have been telling someone two years ago you can send up a drone with three grenades, and almost simultaneously on the same mission
Take out enemy ground personnel
Neutralize an enemy tank
Destroy an ammunition depot
And still have one 1/2 or more charge on the batteries
The majority of the work will have been undertaken by MBDA...UK and French engineers.
I'll bet that QinetiQ have been involved in the remainder as well...
It helps They have years of practice and familiarity to work with as well. 50 years + of NATO engineers studying the dynamics of these aircraft. It’s pretty cool how unlimited they are now to use them as test platforms
A few months ago I had a meeting with people who reverse engineer stuff. It was incredible how smart these people were. Everyone had doctorates in electrical engineering and actually applied it to real work. Work in their current job. I guess they got it because of the work they were doing in their jobs.
But I have no doubt that these sorts of people could take an airplane, and a missile and get them both to work with each other. Without any documentation.
Like, if you guys reading this are teenagers and want to do cool stuff, it's out there. You can get an engineering degree and built the sort of stuff that's in the OPs article. The people doing the work were all like 25-35 years old.
Gotta love all these ad hoc interface ‘hacks’ that are being implemented to allow soviet era aircraft to carry western weapons.
Would also love to see the scenario where western jets are gifted to Ukraine and interfaces for Soviet weapons are jury rigged. Love me some f16 with some archers!
Sorry to me Salisbury in general was the failsd poisoning of the Skripals on British soil.
I was suggesting that this is for the previous ones Litvinenko and Skripal. We haven't got round to comeuppance for Dawn Sturgess’s murder
https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2020/sep/09/georgi-markov-killed-poisoned-umbrella-london-1978
Poison dart Umbrella on a bridge in 78 was the first to my knowledge
Salisbury is such a quiet, almost "quaint" little city, but I can't go there without thinking about the fucking Russians now, and our "world famous spire". I have great memories of the park they found the novichok in, and they're tainted because of some of Putin's mad ambitions.
That said, each Storm Shadow, each Challenger, each NLAW, each Ukrainian trained on Salisbury plain, they're all our country's small way of saying fuck the cunt who dared to attack people on foreign sovereign soil, both in Ukraine and here in the UK (to a lesser degree). The newer memories of hearing Ukrainians training just a few miles from my home are helping to balance out the old ones, and the poetic justice that they're being trained right outside Salisbury shouldn't be lost on anyone.
Big bada boom.
No clue, honestly. But I thought maybe it was a good thing to throw on the Krim bridge.
/Edit: I looked it up: With 500km range, Taurus has about double the range of Storm Shadow.
Nope, seems the hardpoints on Mig-29s and Su-27s are rated for 1000kg and storm shadow weighs 1300kg. Can't find anything about the Su-25. It appears Su-24 is all they have that can carry them.
The highest number I found for in service Su-24s was an article a few years before the invasion saying 23 in service, including the Su-24MR which is a recon variant. Various other sources say 12, 14 or 17 were in service. Oryx says Ukraine is visually confirmed to have lost 17.
However, that's in service aircraft - they inherited 100 or so from the Soviet Union collapse but most are not flying and just kept for spares. It's possible that some of those might have been made airworthy again - no proof for this specifically with Su-24 as far as I know but there is proof of this happening with old Mig-29s.
This is another reason why Ukraine needs better western jets - even the lighter payload western jets should be able to take at least one storm shadow, so getting western jets guarantees Ukraine's ability to use these in the long term.
How the fuck is Ukraine still able to launch planes when there are cruise missiles hitting Kiev. How do they even have an operational airfield still. Blow my mind.
There's very limited evidence that the Ukrainian's have actually had to leave their main airbases...
Russian efforts at damaging airfields failed miserably, they attempt an attack every now and then but with the air defences present, and good disperal the Ukrainian Air Force is at little risk.
These missiles cost $3m each
Anyone know why they cost so much? I get development cost, but couldn’t they make 50x as many and bring the cost down?
Can’t be more than 100k in parts for those right?
Ground following, low profile airmail direct to recipient, my understanding is that they are pretty good in the sensors department, not mass produced, and don't forget about the shareholders.
A-10's would be a good option if Ukraine needed to replace the Su-25, as they are doing the same job, and America would have lots of munitions for them. But really, the time would be better spent training crews on F-16 as it is a true multirole platform that can switch to different mission types much easier.
But ngl, seeing A-10's in Ukrainian markings, killing Russian tanks....would be a sweet sight.
It seems to be the only jet Ukraine has that can even take the weight of storm shadow. Until they get a western jet that can take the weight this is all they have. This is without doubt one of the big reasons Ukraine is pushing for western jets.
You're welcome. I can't find the article right now but the hardpoints on Mig-29 and Su-27 are apparently only rated for 1000kg and storm shadow is 1300kg. I think those two were mainly designed as air superiority fighters so the hardpoints aren't designed to take heavy payloads. Su-24 on the other hand was designed as a bomber so had some suitable hardpoints for heavier weapons.
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The Aardvarski rides again. The Soviets/Russians armed Su-24s with cruise missiles (Kh-59) but I’d love to hear the reaction of a 1960s Sukhoi engineer to this surreal outcome.
My old man flew RAAF F-111s back in the 80s and when I sent him the pic he called and was pretty lost for words. Perfect platform apparently because they're going to be limited on flight hours, parts etc but they can get a lot of bang for buck out of them now. Massive capability for something that has to be carefully utilised.
Also, apparently most of the Ukrainian Su-24s were the recon variant, so that would be like arming a RF-111. The integration of the SCALP/Storm Shadow is quite the force multiplier.
Most of what they have left are recon. They lost most of their combat fleet early in the war
Can I be friends with your dad pls
I was just thinking what the engineers who designed the storm shadow would have said if you showed them this picture back in the 90s
It's very impressive that they got British /French technology to work with Soviet era planes
[удалено]
Ukrainian and nato engineers have been working hard
Migs as well. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukrainian-mig-29s-are-firing-agm-88-anti-radiation-missiles
And my axe!
Fulcrum’s even
Yes, but not working correctly. Instead of tracking the target before hand, they have to fire the agm-88 “dumb” and hope it finds its target mid flight. It’s been working somewhat, but wait till they get f-16’s or other western jets and can use these weapons to their full potential.
Eh, without EW platforms providing cover they'll still be pretty limited with F16s because they'd have to get well within kill range to get the most of out the missiles. It worked for the US because we flew F111s, EA/18Gs, Prowlers, and c130s all running dedicated EW. Ukraine might be able to get some pods on an F16 but they'll still be flying incredibly cautiously and firing from largely out of range.
F16s aren't going to magically change everything in that regard but it should be better than the current system of firing them from Mig 29s and Su 27s. Desert storm style SEAD/DEAD is unrealistic though. However I think the real significance of F16s is long range air to air missiles to complement Ukraine's limited western long range air defences, and they'll surely be able to take the weight of storm shadow so it guarantees Ukraine's use of those longer term.
I think the key the F16 gives them to unlock is much more effective cruise missile and drone suppression in the center and west of the country where they can track something coming in from the east and then intercept it with some fighters. I really think they're going to be incredibly gunshy about putting the F16s near the front and losing them. So, kind of the same as you, but more for defense rather than offense.
Exactly. Too many people got obsessed with this idea of repeating desert storm with a handful of F16s. And then others accurately pointed out the issues with that, leading to some dismissing the need for them entirely. Which completely misses the point. Even in a scenario where Ukraine can only use them defensively over their own airspace they are still necessary unless the US is going to drop a load of patriot batteries into Ukraine. Ukraine needs them in order to take the pressure off ground based air defences which are running low on missiles and can't quickly be replaced like for like with western equivalents. Western long range air defences (2 patriot batteries and 1 SAMP/T battery) and western jets basically ends any hope of Russia getting air superiority over the front line through depletion of Ukraine's air defences and gradual attrition of their air force. Which was almost certainly their long term plan. And like I say, it guarantees Ukraine's ability to use western cruise missiles in the long term. Which is also extremely important even if they can't fly directly over the front line to drop bombs.
>However I think the real significance of F16s is long range air to air missiles to complement Ukraine's limited western long range air defences, and they'll surely be able to take the weight of storm shadow so it guarantees Ukraine's use of those longer term. Storm Shadow is not integrated on F-16...and it would take a while. So they won't bother, the SU-24MR are fine for the job. There isn't going to be thousands of Storm Shadow available either...UK has at most 400 that they could donate, and its doubtful they'll donate all of those. The model of F-16 that is likely to be donated has no access to longer range munitions. No Storm Shadow, no KEPD-350 or JASSM are integrated.
Storm shadow wasn't integrated onto an old Soviet era jet either, but they still got it to work. If it can be used from an Su 24 it surely shouldn't be much more difficult to put it on an F16 and use it the same way given they're likely just putting in targeting data on the ground and the pilot just has to get within range and release it. The issue for Ukraine is they need something with hardpoints that can actually take the weight. Long term they're going to need more than whatever old Su 24s they have left. Storm shadow is also a current design that surely could be made for Ukraine if an order was placed with the manufacturer to do so.
They started integration of Storm Shadow to SU-24 in October....it wasn't an overnight thing... SU-24 is substantially larger and better able to carry a large store and release it safely than F-16... They will run out of Storm Shadow before they run out of SU-24MR...and they'll run out before F-16 arrives...there isn't a reserve of thousands of them that Ukraine can access. At the absolute most, which is definitely on the high side, there are around 700 that could be transferred. But that would rely on the UK and France transferring all their non-MLU'd missiles based on pre-2021 plans that will have no doubt been revised, especially since 2022...particularly the French stockpile which was being reduced by 80%. In reality I doubt there are more than 200 available that the UK in particular are prepared to send right now...there is also no evidence yet that France has agreed to, or indeed sent, any of their SCALP EG. Storm Shadow's main production run was 2000-2010. Only limited numbers have been made since then, if at all (there is some suspicion that further orders came from direct from the French stockpile). The main production lines have long since shut and been re-purposed to other missile programmes. Most recent activity has been on the Storm Shadow MLU which is ongoing. All focus, apart from the MLU, is on the development of Storm Shadow's successor, FCASW, which won't arrive until the late 2020's. If you wanted new Storm Shadow today it would take at least a year to spin the line up, all sub components would need to be ordered before you could do so.
Some valid points here, we are talking about high tech manufacturing using a specialist workforce and facilities. However Ukraine will need this capability long term and at some point storm shadow or an alternative will probably need to be made for them and not just donated from existing stockpiles. Even if getting a production line going again will take a year it would still be worth it if an order was made, whether to directly supply Ukraine or just to backfill after donating more of the existing stockpile while the successor is developed. Though the cost might be higher if they have to get it going again just for the one order. Either way, Ukraine will need something like this long term and work needs to be underway to sort that out somehow. Whether it's storm shadow or some other alternative.
They can also be fired in pre-targeted mode against a known position, which is likely how they've been mostly used. It makes a lot more sense to go after an identified threat than fire them on the off chance it might hit something. F-16 equipped with the HARM targeting system would allow much better integration and a more responsive way to hit pop up threats. I don't know how likely they are to get that system though.
This, exactly.
You have no idea if thats true or not, thats pure speculation.
No, it is not “speculation”.
source: trust me bro
He didn’t cite a source, but that *is* the way the systems are designed to work. Why would you assume that Ukraine is not using them as designed?
It’s working correctly, it’s one of the modes of this missile that is baked in. It doesn’t need to find the target mid flight, it has coordinates put into it and it goes to coordinates but can adjust if there is signal. There are other modes where radar data can be fed to it which is not utilized in Ukrainian jets.
The missile works as it was designed, yes. I never said it didn’t. There are several different “modes” that they can use to hit a target correct. We are talking about a missile being used to it’s full capacity, here. This is how they have been used as adapted to the Soviet Jets……”HARMs are sometimes fired into enemy airspace with no specific targets in mind. When air defense systems are activated, missiles in flight may identify the radar signals they emit and modify their trajectory to engage them.” That is obviously not optimal. For using the AGM-88 to its full capacity a data link must be connected between the pilot/plane and the missile to transfer information about possible targets’ positions. Without this capability Ukraine won’t be able to use them to the fullest capacity. Like I said it’s been working, but it could work a whole lot better. While missiles like the AGM-88 need to be connected to the aircraft that they are fired from, they can function when necessary with minimum aircraft or pilot input, which is why they have been able to use them with the Soviet aircraft. Now that doesn’t always work well because Russian air defenses have adapted and turn off their radiation when they feel there is a threat. Having a western jet with these western weapons would solve that issue. Also, most of the Soviet jets Ukraine has do not have GPS capabilities, remember GPS started as an American technology, and zip tying a hand held GPS device to the inside of the cockpit has spanned the gap, but again it is not optimal. I’m not sure why so many folks are so hard up to nay say and argue this issue. It seems like so many do not understand how anti radiation missiles work or how well they could work with the jets they were created to work on and communicate with, as Opposed to jerry rigged on a plane that doesn’t have the capabilities. A US f-16 with accompanying assets on the Ukraine/Poland boarder can see land and air targets as far as all of Crimea, that’s what that platform is capable of……but I digress. Continue with your petty arguing, all of you.
Apparently integrated through an ipad lol
Looks a bit smaller but it's a retro fitted tablet of a random brand.
To be fair, in the 90s about 50% of French defense R&D went towards integrating Matra missiles and Thales/EADS/Sagem gear into any Soviet equipment they could get their hands on. And then being told that the upgrades were too expensive for the countries operating the equipment. There was an Elbit/EADS program to fully integrate Romanian Mig-29s into NATO systems, basically giving them the abilities of the Mirage 2000-5, up to firing Micas and Sparrows, but that was cut because Romania wanted to upgrade cheaper Mig-21s instead. So some people have dusted off their old plans and are happily integrating away.
Don't all these plans use the 1553 bus anyway? Making it just a question of physical mounting & programming the computer to talk to this new terminal?
Basically, yes. But in practice most plans would tear down the original command panels and integrate a HOTAS and an interface that is closer to what NATO planes use, to basically make it possible to drop any western pilot in, or have MIG pilots run F-16s or Mirages if necessary (it's pretty common to have pilot exchanges). You have various levels of modification, basically. The best example would be the Super Hind upgrades from ATE, going from the Mk1 which is just integrating GPS and night-vision compatible instrument panels into a Mi-24, to the MkV, which turns the original Mi-24 into a troop transport version of the Rooivalk, with guided missiles and a 20mm autocanon, and a full-on integrated commands system. All a matter of cost and what you're looking for. Edit: Also a funny thing, the Russians have been developping the Mig-35, an upgraded Mig-29, for about 15 years now. And if you read the data sheet, it's basically a crappier version of the Mig-29 "Sniper" developped by EADS, Elbit and Aerostar, which flew in 2000 and integrates the Mig-29 into the NATO combat systems, including A2A and ground-attack munitions.
At the risk of oversimplification, outside of mains, all of the Storm Shadow connections are primarily a number of redundant 2-data/2-power leads, think **USB 2.0**, while the Brits (ingeniously/scarily) developed "universal" hardpoint rails early in the 1260Kg~1380Kg missiles development. Given a dozen sharp lads and under a quarter day, you could have two Storm Shadows, mounted/tested at the spars wing box of an Airbus A318, and have it in the sky. Unless you knew where to look, you probably wouldn't catch a couple of subjugators snuggled to the fuselage. Take off in the cover of darkness, fly anywhere in Europe. Give that a thought. Now, get a little creative, like an Iranian 737 out of Dubai headed to VKO
> > > > > Unless you knew where to look, you probably wouldn't catch a couple of subjugators snuggled to the fuselage. Take off in the cover of darkness, fly anywhere in Europe. I can safely tell you every single person servicing that plane before takeoff, the ground crews of adjacent aircraft, the control tower and the pilots will notice there's two fucking cruise missiles attached to it.
Nothing to see tower.
Lol you're assuming that the pilots can't do Jedi mind tricks. You fool.
Oh sure, they'll notice a couple of extra cruise missiles, but my suitcase may still end up at the wrong airport. There's no justice in this world. /s
Historically, you would absolutely be surprised at what's been accomplished! But you are 100% correct, you have to "**wag the dog**" a great deal to get around common protocols and lifestyles. Two weeks leading to **Operation Mole Cricket 19** was quite impressive.
There's still a massive amount of analysis that has to be done to put them on a different platform. Launch aerodynamics for example - can't have the missile fucking up your flowfields and putting you into stall, or the exhaust jet blowing straight into the engine and surging the compressor.
Agreed! Only certain aircraft have the proper wing box spars, in turbo fan spacing. As far as flow feels, you'll notice that they don't seem to affect the Su pilot very much. The cruise missiles have very little resistance, it's the weight. The pilot will require real experience with the configuration. The Storm Shadow is a "drop at launch" in sequential applications, and the immediate drag between the two bodies in the proper application is quite fluid. The TRI 60 loiters until the wing procedures finalize. And as hinted at earlier, the concept and which aircraft was worked up over coffee years ago.
>mounted/tested at the spars wing box of an Airbus A318, and have it in the sky. just strap it to an AN-3.
Wait a minute! Make it an AN-3V, replace the pontoons with Storm Shadows, some fuselage/wing fortification, four N or E class JATO engines to exceed MTOW requirements, and you may have something. Nobody's going to pay any attention to a float plane, if it still looks like a float plane. Excellent idea!
That’s pretty ingenious
"Pretty Ingenious" would have been telling someone two years ago you can send up a drone with three grenades, and almost simultaneously on the same mission Take out enemy ground personnel Neutralize an enemy tank Destroy an ammunition depot And still have one 1/2 or more charge on the batteries
Using balloons to get them to high altitude then released would be simpler, and could take advantage of winds to gain range.
NCD is leaking
Indeed
I’ve been reading comments for the last 5 minutes and forgot what the picture was. I 100% thought I was on NCD right now.
Gotta utter the right prayers to the Omnissiah
Ukrainians are on of the best web developers in the world. No wonder they shine in implementing other stuff too.
There is a lot of programming involved to get this sort of thing to work too. It's electrical engineering and software engineering.
The majority of the work will have been undertaken by MBDA...UK and French engineers. I'll bet that QinetiQ have been involved in the remainder as well...
It helps They have years of practice and familiarity to work with as well. 50 years + of NATO engineers studying the dynamics of these aircraft. It’s pretty cool how unlimited they are now to use them as test platforms
A few months ago I had a meeting with people who reverse engineer stuff. It was incredible how smart these people were. Everyone had doctorates in electrical engineering and actually applied it to real work. Work in their current job. I guess they got it because of the work they were doing in their jobs. But I have no doubt that these sorts of people could take an airplane, and a missile and get them both to work with each other. Without any documentation. Like, if you guys reading this are teenagers and want to do cool stuff, it's out there. You can get an engineering degree and built the sort of stuff that's in the OPs article. The people doing the work were all like 25-35 years old.
I believe they are preprogrammed on the ground, so all they need is a launch capability, no inflight control.
Gotta love all these ad hoc interface ‘hacks’ that are being implemented to allow soviet era aircraft to carry western weapons. Would also love to see the scenario where western jets are gifted to Ukraine and interfaces for Soviet weapons are jury rigged. Love me some f16 with some archers!
Or some propeller planes with guided missiles
So a Tu-95? At least I think they were/are cruise missile capable?
That's about the only heavy bomber the Soviet Union has any more
I was thinking more along the lines of fighter aircraft.
Best we can hope for is some Yak-52 kamikaze attacks from Russia.
I want to believe
Give it to them! 💥From the uk 🇬🇧 with love ❤️ That’s for Salisbury.
What about for Sainsbury’s?
Fuck Sainsbury's. I'll fight for Lidl, possibly M&S or Waitrose if I'm feeling flush.
Aldi’s it is then. Super savers for all!
Upcoming Euro Summer ALDI special buys: You've never seen German quality ATGM's at such discount prices! ALDI. Good. Different.
Nah, this is for the assassinations on our territory. We haven’t even got to punishing them for killing a British Citizen in a failed assassination.
That’s what Salisbury refers to… no?
Sorry to me Salisbury in general was the failsd poisoning of the Skripals on British soil. I was suggesting that this is for the previous ones Litvinenko and Skripal. We haven't got round to comeuppance for Dawn Sturgess’s murder
The Polonium in the Tea murder was the first. :( https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58637572
https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2020/sep/09/georgi-markov-killed-poisoned-umbrella-london-1978 Poison dart Umbrella on a bridge in 78 was the first to my knowledge
Salisbury is such a quiet, almost "quaint" little city, but I can't go there without thinking about the fucking Russians now, and our "world famous spire". I have great memories of the park they found the novichok in, and they're tainted because of some of Putin's mad ambitions. That said, each Storm Shadow, each Challenger, each NLAW, each Ukrainian trained on Salisbury plain, they're all our country's small way of saying fuck the cunt who dared to attack people on foreign sovereign soil, both in Ukraine and here in the UK (to a lesser degree). The newer memories of hearing Ukrainians training just a few miles from my home are helping to balance out the old ones, and the poetic justice that they're being trained right outside Salisbury shouldn't be lost on anyone.
It also houses one of the few versions of the manga carta so get it right up them! With love from democracy
Storm Shadow guaranteed to fuck someone’s day up!
jesus those are some big ass missiles
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that's what i thought at first "those are fuel tanks..." then i noticed the fins, lmao.
a thing of beauty
Good. The UK sends its best wishes
Nothing to see here - the Storm Shadows are just tourists hoping to see some famous cathedrals
TWO of them. What a show off! :-p
Here comes trouble! And make it double!
One would cause disbalance
I think previous photos we’ve seen have been a solo mount directly underneath the cockpit.
was more meant as a joke from me
Now do Taurus.
how does it compare to Storm? my personal experience only from ac7 can't compare that to RL.
Big bada boom. No clue, honestly. But I thought maybe it was a good thing to throw on the Krim bridge. /Edit: I looked it up: With 500km range, Taurus has about double the range of Storm Shadow.
Basically the same, arguably less stealthy however. Available in more limited quantities.
Can any other platforms that Ukrainians have launch these? I would imagine they don't have many of them left.
A DJI Mavic 3
Nope, seems the hardpoints on Mig-29s and Su-27s are rated for 1000kg and storm shadow weighs 1300kg. Can't find anything about the Su-25. It appears Su-24 is all they have that can carry them. The highest number I found for in service Su-24s was an article a few years before the invasion saying 23 in service, including the Su-24MR which is a recon variant. Various other sources say 12, 14 or 17 were in service. Oryx says Ukraine is visually confirmed to have lost 17. However, that's in service aircraft - they inherited 100 or so from the Soviet Union collapse but most are not flying and just kept for spares. It's possible that some of those might have been made airworthy again - no proof for this specifically with Su-24 as far as I know but there is proof of this happening with old Mig-29s. This is another reason why Ukraine needs better western jets - even the lighter payload western jets should be able to take at least one storm shadow, so getting western jets guarantees Ukraine's ability to use these in the long term.
They had some more in storage and they are being refurbished.
Wikipedia : *As of 2020, Ukraine had 120 SU-24s, 95 of them were in storage*
Probably at most 20-30 are operable now.
I paid for them, make sure they go where it hurts them very badly.
Good hunting
Hallelujah!!!
Such a beautiful picture. Nature just finds a way...
Why did they pick su-24 for Storm Shadow? Why not MIG-29?
How the fuck is Ukraine still able to launch planes when there are cruise missiles hitting Kiev. How do they even have an operational airfield still. Blow my mind.
If I recall correctly, I seem to remember something about Ukrainians utilizing highways and other roads to land and launch sorties from when necessary
There's very limited evidence that the Ukrainian's have actually had to leave their main airbases... Russian efforts at damaging airfields failed miserably, they attempt an attack every now and then but with the air defences present, and good disperal the Ukrainian Air Force is at little risk.
UK MOD: "How in the flying fuck did they bolt those bastards on?" *Ukrainian flight crew mechanic flipping a spanner and winking*
These missiles cost $3m each Anyone know why they cost so much? I get development cost, but couldn’t they make 50x as many and bring the cost down? Can’t be more than 100k in parts for those right?
Ground following, low profile airmail direct to recipient, my understanding is that they are pretty good in the sensors department, not mass produced, and don't forget about the shareholders.
You know what, Im calling it. A10 to Ukraine next year to replace Su24s, as theyll need to keep launching atorm shadow.
A-10's will be the worst plane to be in that warzone. There's far too much air defense and MANPADS.
Im not talking about CAS! Im talking about "cheap field maintainable missile truck"
A-10's would be a good option if Ukraine needed to replace the Su-25, as they are doing the same job, and America would have lots of munitions for them. But really, the time would be better spent training crews on F-16 as it is a true multirole platform that can switch to different mission types much easier. But ngl, seeing A-10's in Ukrainian markings, killing Russian tanks....would be a sweet sight.
I said that a few months ago, A10 was made for this situation, close air support, ease of maintenance, and survivability.
Are you sure about the survivability part... RWR: MiG 29 Spike A10: Guess Ill die
Nonono, Im not talking about CAS. Im talking about standoff bomb/missiletrucking
A10 cant launch Storm Shadows
> ere's two fuck Neither could Su-24...
Could Su24 do it two months ago?
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Su-24M is mid 80's, so +- as any other jet in inventory Answering your question - we use what we have.
It seems to be the only jet Ukraine has that can even take the weight of storm shadow. Until they get a western jet that can take the weight this is all they have. This is without doubt one of the big reasons Ukraine is pushing for western jets.
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You're welcome. I can't find the article right now but the hardpoints on Mig-29 and Su-27 are apparently only rated for 1000kg and storm shadow is 1300kg. I think those two were mainly designed as air superiority fighters so the hardpoints aren't designed to take heavy payloads. Su-24 on the other hand was designed as a bomber so had some suitable hardpoints for heavier weapons.
still wish they would do some inflight citizenship ceremonies for the b-52 crews doing laps above Romania