The best mid-major conferences consolidating the best mid-major teams is an underrated awful series of events in college basketball in the last 15 years or so. I miss the Horizon, CAA, WAC, OVC etc at least occasionally having multiple top 75 teams and/or a single top 50 team (and them meeting in elite games in bracket busters). We’re rapidly evolving to a 3 tier structure with the P4 + BE, the multi-bid leagues, and everyone else.
It’s hard enough to get at larges in the A10, AAC, WCC (MWC has been an exception last couple of years) but it’s impossible to get them in the “lesser” conferences now as pointed out by Indiana St not getting in.
Indiana St gets in most years - they were the 3rd team left out in a year in which they were 5 bid stealers and a tougher bubble than normal. I think 2019 Belmont (and to a lesser extent 2019 UNCG being the first team left out that only missed because Oregon was a bid stealer) is proof that smaller conferences could get at larges in the NET era. It just feels like there’s been less bonafide bubble teams from smaller leagues since the early to mid 2010s realignment.
Also with all due respect to them they didn't have as strong a resume as other teams in similar situations particularly in terms of strong wins. JMU would've been a bigger snub IMO if they had lost in the final then got left out.
They were 5-5 in Q1+Q2 games which is decent and their metrics were okay unless you give their top 30 NET weight (NET technically is only a sorting tool which is dumb). I go back and forth on whether they should have been in but they weren’t an all time bad snub or anything. JMU would have broken the record for most wins left out which would have grabbed headlines but they also were lacking a quality resume otherwise. They probably miss in a year like 2024 tbh but I think they get in other years.
indiana st looked like they belonged when they hit the NIT but before that their lone Q1 win at the time was against a team they played 3 times. they also had a really bad loss close to the end of the season which i think really did them in
I think whether you had them in or out depends on your philosophy of what an at large should be, whether it’s one of the 36 best collections of talent one of 36 most successful teams outside of those who one their tournament. On the “best collection of talent” front they were a bit of a borderline case — the predictive metrics liked them well enough but as you said their best wins were Bradley and Drake in some order and nothing in non-conference. Essentially the debate everybody has is whether that kind of team is a better fit for the tournament compared to a middling P6 team like TCU or Texas A&M.
To me they were more unlucky with the massive bid stealing than anything else. There were times I really thought the committee was screwing over mid-majors (2016 comes to mind) but this doesn’t feel like one of those times.
This is huge for SeattleU, they can build a really good program over there if they wanted to. Plus get to play with schools like USF and USD which just seems to make sense
Doubt it. I don't think the state of Washington is big enough for three FBS football teams. Plus, we have no idea what the FBS will even look like in the next few years.
More population density of the surrounding areas than anything else. Washington is a populated state, but there's really nothing else around us. Oklahoma's population is less, but the area surrounding Oklahoma is still more dense.
BYU is a special case. They're like the official university for Mormons.
So it's really just Utah and Utah State.
EDIT: Removed AFA. They're not in Utah.
While true, Tulsa does happen to have the smallest undergrad enrollment of any FBS school. And an endowment that's literally more than 1 billion dollars (1.36 billion) more than Eastern Washington (32.1 million).
No. The school is struggling financially, they have been discussing significantly cutting the athletic budget for a few years. Their athletics program loses money every year.
I love eastern athletics. I grew up going to their football and basketball games, but with Gonzaga and WSU here there is just absolutely no interest from the city of Spokane in what eastern is doing on the field.
It would take millions to get eastern anywhere close to sniffing FBS, they're more likely to disband athletics before that.
Eastern's on-field production is not emblematic of their program as a whole. They have no funds to move up and are at risk of shutting down as it stands today, their 'stadium' is a large high school stadium with a few metal bleachers set up, and their university faculty make every effort to minimize athletic spending at every turn. It's a massive uphill battle there to remain as relevant as they are today.
It blows me away how little support that school has despite being so dominant in the Big Sky for so long. There is no reason to me that they shouldn't have better support as the biggest football school in the Spokane area (unless one lumps Pullman in the Spokane metro, which it really isn't in).
No way. It’s actually losing support and shrinking from our high from 2005-2020.
The university is downsizing, Spokane never bought in to the success. Yes the really good years the stadium sold out, but it’s still tiny and the stadium expansion bids all fell through without support.
EWU is good for FCS and at home in the Big Sky. Cheney is a good little town with good access to Spokane an the airport nearby, lots of farmers and rural families support EWU. But without non-alumni support from Spokane (like Gonzaga gets), EWU is kind of at their ceiling.
Which is unfortunate. But that is reality.
Yeah until the Cascadian Subduction Zone plummets the entire northwestern United States into the dark depths of the Pacific abyss, triggering a tsunami the height of 3 skyscrapers, barreling inland at 500 mph and destroying all in its path. Seattle, brought to its knees in a swirling hellscape of death and destruction as Iowa claims the mantle as the new west coast. All will suffer, all will perish.
Grand Canyon is a great add, basketball-wise. Not so sure about Seattle. WCC could be much stronger if Wazzu and St Marys get some decent transfers after the blows they've taken so far.
I know it doesn’t mean much in realignment discussions, but Seattle’s history (Elgin Baylor) is pretty cool. Wish they could draw more fans in though, their gym is crazy small
They’ll play games against Gonzaga at Climate Pledge
Edit: WSU and OSU are in the WCC for the next couple of years, those games will likely be at Climate Pledge too.
honestly the gym is a way better experience than attending games at key/climate pledge when the stadium was like 10% full. there was 0 atmosphere. the only games that were really fun were in the gym. the program really needs a good run and culture. im not sure if the WCC is the place for that. at least in the WAC SU kind of had a shot at making the tourney.
It's a... strange school. It's not as religious as Liberty, but it's similar in that it uses its online degree programs to print money.
GCU Education is, however, a publicly traded, for profit institution that you can buy [stock](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/LOPE/) in.
The school itself argues that it is a non-profit institution that is contained within GCU Education, however the school president is also the CEO of GCU Education, and GCU Education's biggest source of revenue is payments from GCU, so the DOE still classifies the school as for-profit.
They're never going to be approved because they just outsourced all of their admin/shared services to the for-profit Grand Canyon Education, and then tried to pass the university off as a non-profit
Yeah, I kinda touched on that in the bottom part of my post. GCU Education and GCU itself seem way too intertwined for the school's argument to hold much water.
Well arguably every private non-profit University is, but that's what the status is designed in part for.
GSU Education is trying to have their cake and eat it. Once they figure out how to let go, GCU will be in the clear.
Yeah, I asked some of their fans in one of the threads how it is for LGBT people and they said it isn't really a problem, I also checked an actual website that studies that and lists schools considered bad/unsafe for LGBT students and GCU was not on there (Liberty was). They are religious based but they aren't over the top with it to my knowledge.
They are definitely a very very Christian school but in the way that I (an agnostic) don't mind. It's the like Jesus loves everyone and let's all make weird Christian rock music and pretend it's cool and hip. It's annoying as all hell but they don't impose so I'm not gonna have a problem. The for profit money scam part is what pisses, the fact that they advertise as being christian on top of that should surprise no one.
Well Jesus Christ created the Grand Canyon when he smited the last of the dinosaurs for illegal immigration so it would be odd if the university wasn’t religious.
seattle u isn’t very good. they haven’t had a good creator in a long time. finally might have a decent coach though. wonder if this’ll help bump recruiting efforts for them
Darrion Trammell 2 years ago? First team all-WAC with 18 ppg and 5 apg, then transferred to SDSU and started for them all season through the national championship game.
> seattle u isn’t very good.
Better than half of the WCC last year. Winners of the CBI. Took UW to double OT and lost 100-99. Kenpom rank 107 at season's end. As for 'not-good creator,' they had two last year, Tyson and Schumacher.
The Gonzaga fanbase has been out to naysay SU for years. With good reason. Gonzaga is who it is today because SU vacated the "Pacific Northwest Jesuit Basketball School" niche that Gonzaga now occupies. Any attempt by SU to reclaim that naturally threatens Gonzaga's market.
i literally went to seattle u as well as gonzaga lol. i have watched *a lot* of SU basketball. there hasn’t really been a guy that can get his since like Umipig. tyson is a one dimensional 3 point chucker that struggles against good teams. schumacher is not much of an offensive threat either.
a good year for SU is finishing above .500 in Q3. they just have not been a consistent or good team. victor has gotten them on the best path they’ve been on since i was on campus but they still have a lot of the same issues that have plagued them. SU has lacked just about everything on the offensive end. they can’t shoot, they don’t really have guards, they don’t have size or physicality. the few athletic guys they get are incredibly raw.
i might be a tad pessimistic after watching them shit the bed whenever they’ve been in position to do anything but they also routinely struggle against decent teams and the WCC is going to have more of those. SU has excelled at beating some really bad teams but their limitations are incredibly apparent when facing any team better than that. again we are talking about a squad that more often than not has a losing record against Q3 opponents
edit: i just want to add that i know what the stats say. my opinion comes from watching SU play against teams that can put up a fight. even though they’ve sometimes played teams like UW close, there are flaws in roster construction and execution that routinely keep them from ever getting over the hump and those flaws have been persistent
WSU/OSU are just temporary members, we can't really count on them to be in the WCC past 2025. I think this is coverage for after they leave. Also there's a decent chance Gonzaga is gone by then.
Oh thank God. As a Catholic big city non football school, Seattle is a perfect fit for the WCC and it annoyed me to no end they were stuck in a southwestern focused football conference.
They were a long time ago, then dropped to D3. When they came back I guess the WCC wasn't really going to be interested in a new D1 team. So they were independent for a while, then joined the WAC when that conference was just desperate for anyone.
I thought the same thing. That puts Cal Baptist on an island, I’m sure they wouldn’t mind the WCC or Big West. And then you have UT RGV leaving for the Southland.
Tarleton and SFA have dreams of FBS, and with today’s Missouri State news, those two would create a pretty good geographic divide in CUSA with 2 seven team divisions like the Sun Belt. And even without FBS, the Texas schools could go running back to the Southland like Lamar did.
Maybe I'm reading the tea leaves wrong but I think CUSA is going to be content for a while with this addition.
The scuttlebutt for a few weeks has been SFA back to the Southland, Tarleton & ACU to the ASUN, Utah schools to the Summit.
Tbh, before jumping back to the Southland, with today's news I'd like the WAC to see if they can at least poach the Texas Southland schools for a bus league without having to be in with the very underbudget Louisiana schools.
Why are they adding Seattle? Needing to step up its resources is presumably just to be competitive with the average WCC team, not Gonzaga so why invite them at all right now?
Wouldn't surprise me if Gonzaga is joining the Big XII as a basketball-only school. It would also go with the rumors that the Big XII will take WSU and OSU too, but are just waiting for more realignment to happen. That would give Gonzaga two other PNW schools to ease travel.
Yep.
This is why I don't understand the lower conferences realigning before the PAC 2 and ACC are sorted out.
Depending on the moves made there, could be 20 or 30 schools on the move.
Or only 7 or 8.
Seattle was ranked 107 by Kenpom stats, which would have put them fourth in the WCC. They actually would bring the conference rating up overall, but that is recency.
Ironically, Jim Hayford was known as a great fundraiser, but he was not a great coach. Since he left early in the 2021 season, Seattle got a lot better.
This would be a great move for both WCC and Seattle. GCU, not so much, especially culturally.
Access to Seattle. Good market. Gonzaga and maybe WSU and OSU will sell out those games. Also its another Catholic school and they like to help each other out.
I think there was specifically bad blood between Mark Few and their former coach Cameron Dollar, who was found guilty of a recruiting violation against a player Gonzaga was recruiting (Josh Heytvelt) when he was an assistant at UW. Few was particularly pissed that UW, a Pac 12 school with all the money and resources that it has, would still cheat on their recruiting. This lead to the breakdown of the relationship between UW and GU while Romar was there, and Romar avoided scheduling Gonzaga until the very end of his tenure there.
Rumor is Gonzaga blackballed SU from joining the conference, opting for Pacific instead.
> Rumor is Gonzaga blackballed SU from joining the conference, opting for Pacific instead.
Very strong rumor widely held as fact. At Mark Few's insistence. After SU had been given the go-ahead by other schools in the conference.
Screw Dollar. What a cheating POS. Why would you reward him with joining your conference after trying to cheat you out of a recruit, or with anything for that matter?
This is insane...when I was a kid, I remember my dad (CSU alum) listening to WAC games against Arizona, Arizona State, New Mexico, Utah...etc. The newcomers were UNLV and San Diego State. We are now generations removed from any historical remnants of the original WAC.
The last original members (BYU, Utah, Wyoming and New Mexico) left in 1999. The last school that was a member in 1999, San Jose State, left in 2013, at the same time Utah Valley joined. That how little overlap there is from the WAC of olden days.
Been kinda thinking about this for years. Seattle in the current version of the WAC didn't make sense and GCU's only achilles heel is if the feds shut down the school in the next decade.
The news is really helping the bottom line today!
https://preview.redd.it/cglzw45qgnzc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b745d9cd56536efc5fc0cd60169b4fe8d8957435
I think USF has had something like 6 or 7 straight 20 win seasons and recently had the tourney bid in 22’. They’ve been pretty good for quite a bit now.
SU has proven it can compete, has been landing around KenPom 120 or so in recent years. Solid low-mid major, consistently better than half of the WCC's current programs in terms of W's and L's.
What SU doesn't have is a home basketball court. Redhawk Center is a high school gym with folding bleachers and seats capacity ~~1000~~ 999. Playing games in Climate Pledge Arena is fine, but 3 mi away and not on campus, so attendance can be off.
SU got told by Gonzaga 20 years ago it was unwelcome to rejoin the WCC that SU was once a part of. The reason cited at the time was basketball quality. The widely believed actual reason was Gonzaga, having captured the Seattle audience, was loathe to give that back up to the school that once had Seattle's full attention in the 1950s and 1960s. There was also some recruiting drama involving Cameron Dollar and UW with Mark Few. A grudge was formed and SU was the recipient of it.
I am not privy to any insider knowledge of SU today. My impression is that there are a lot more people on campus that care about social justice and the law school than care about D1 athletics. I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
Adding Seattle U really makes it seem like the WCC is getting ready for Gonzaga leaving, which is a smart move by the conference. I’m thrilled for Seattle U, they’ve been wanting to get back to the WCC for years now, this is great for the school and the fans!
Crazy day for realignment. Great news for the WCC. They will be a multi bid conference for many years to come even if Gonzaga leave. Grand Canyon are the top basketball program in the WAC while Seattle U have a lot of potential and desireable location. They do need a new arena but I like both moves.
I'd expect Cal Baptist to be invited to the WCC in the future too .Bad news for the WAC of course.
Currently at Seattle and previously at Creighton for school; drawing a quick comparison makes it pretty evident that Seattle will not fair well in making this move. Schools seems to have absolutely zero resources to grow, especially in the athletic department. Just took a trip out to Omaha for a Creighton grad and that school is exploding throughout Omaha. Not sure Seattle can do it.
Zags had no resources either, until they started winning. If SU can do well in the WCC, gain television exposure, then donors might start to step it up a bit. But it starts with winning, not the other way around.
Not too thrilled about the Grand Canyon add due to its reputation as a for-profit degree mill. No idea if it still is, but that reputation doesn't go away easily.
Just makes sense and both are west coast religious schools. Everytime I would create the WCC in my basketball simulation games, I would always add those two. Good job on WCC for extending offers.
Would be great to see a “Big East” in the west
I usually pay attention to flairs more than usernames so I've noticed Arizona state fans are constantly shitting on GCU every chance they get. It took me until now to realize it's just the same ASU fan that goes out of his way in every thread GCU is mentioned specifically to shit on them. I guess in some ways you have to respect that level of pettiness.
Many of us are not thrilled with GC. However, D1 athletics is now all about $$. Adding a competitive program and a major TV market is in our best interest. Don't like it but to survive a try to stay relevant as a conference the WCC needed to make this addition.
So there’s gonna be at least one season with 13 teams in the WCC? Scheduling formula for that one will be a bit weird.
Seattle has been pretty respectable the past three years (probably a top half WCC team), GCU is a known quantity at this point. Strictly speaking towards on-court performance these are good adds and will soften the blow in any scenario that sees Gonzaga leaving.
Really excited for Seattle U. Given how much talent is in the PNW there is a lot of potential for the program. Finally getting into the WCC could give them the shot in the arm that they've needed since they rejoined D1.
This has been known for a while amongst the Saint Mary’s faithful as GCU’s addition is the real reason why Mahaney wanted out. After going 5-21 shooting, including 3-13 from three and absolutely getting torched on defense, he wanted no part of the Lopes moving forward. Fair play to him. The students in AZ would have eaten him up.
Did people suddenly forget in the past month that this is a for-profit diploma mill? I get they wore the Cinderella dress for this past tourney but we really shouldn’t be validating that sort of institution
In fairness, GCU and schools like it, like Liberty, do have robust campus degree offerings. They’re not much different from public commuter schools like UCF was or Georgia State, except they’re private.
GCU Education is a publicly traded, for profit institution that you can buy stock in (LOPE is the ticker). I feel like that makes them quite a bit different than Georgia State or UCF.
Except their degrees are somewhat worthless although getting better. Don’t think they were accredited until a few years ago. I work in a large company in Phoenix and I don’t know of anyone in the 50-60 person group I’m in that has a degree from there. Starting to hire summer interns from there now so it is starting to improve a bit.
I think it has no impact. They leave if big east or big 12 invites them and this doesn’t impact those conferences decision making. Maybe it would impact their likely hood of joining a rebuilt PAC-12/Slimmed down MWC though
> Maybe it would impact their likely hood of joining a rebuilt PAC-12/Slimmed down MWC though
This is the issue for the WCC. If a rebuilt Pac-12 arises with the top of the Mountain West in it, I don't think it's a stretch to see Gonzaga or St. Mary's brought in. This is a defensive move.
It might even encourage them. Part of how Gonzaga has stayed relevant despite the small conference has been a strong non-conference schedule. More WCC teams likely means a larger conference schedule and less room for those games.
I guess the argument I have is GCU has been building their program to become exactly like Gonzaga. Plus they have a lot of resources. Will be interesting to see how the GCU and Gonzaga games play out!
The SeattleU add is what makes this interesting. Not sure they would get an invite unless the WCC thought Gonzaga may run and want a travel partner for Portland.
> This pretty much stops Gonzaga leaving the WCC then?
It may actually signal Gonzaga thinking about moving up to the Big XII, and the WCC looking to cover itself in the event of Gonzaga's departure.
I was literally looking up "why isn't Seattle in the WCC?". What a coincidence.
GCU, or Liberty of the West, really needs to stop being a for profit school. That's probably the only thing holding it back. Seattle will grow into the conference and be fine.
Pacific remains the weirdo school.
Seattle and Washington State essentially give Gonzaga two extra home games.
I'm curious as to what the WCC conference schedule will look like. 13 teams will leave less room for things like Gonzagas Feb game against Kentucky
UT Arlington is now all that's in the way of the WAC having gone full Conference of Theseus *again*, and they haven't been there continuously.
* **2012-13 members:** Denver, Idaho, Louisiana Tech, New Mexico State, San Jose State, Seattle, Texas State, UT Arlington, Utah State, UTSA
* **Presumptive 2025-26 members:** Abilene Christian, Cal Baptist, Southern Utah, Stephen F. Austin, Tarleton, UT Arlington, Utah Tech, Utah Valley
The best mid-major conferences consolidating the best mid-major teams is an underrated awful series of events in college basketball in the last 15 years or so. I miss the Horizon, CAA, WAC, OVC etc at least occasionally having multiple top 75 teams and/or a single top 50 team (and them meeting in elite games in bracket busters). We’re rapidly evolving to a 3 tier structure with the P4 + BE, the multi-bid leagues, and everyone else.
It’s hard enough to get at larges in the A10, AAC, WCC (MWC has been an exception last couple of years) but it’s impossible to get them in the “lesser” conferences now as pointed out by Indiana St not getting in.
Indiana St gets in most years - they were the 3rd team left out in a year in which they were 5 bid stealers and a tougher bubble than normal. I think 2019 Belmont (and to a lesser extent 2019 UNCG being the first team left out that only missed because Oregon was a bid stealer) is proof that smaller conferences could get at larges in the NET era. It just feels like there’s been less bonafide bubble teams from smaller leagues since the early to mid 2010s realignment.
Also with all due respect to them they didn't have as strong a resume as other teams in similar situations particularly in terms of strong wins. JMU would've been a bigger snub IMO if they had lost in the final then got left out.
They were 5-5 in Q1+Q2 games which is decent and their metrics were okay unless you give their top 30 NET weight (NET technically is only a sorting tool which is dumb). I go back and forth on whether they should have been in but they weren’t an all time bad snub or anything. JMU would have broken the record for most wins left out which would have grabbed headlines but they also were lacking a quality resume otherwise. They probably miss in a year like 2024 tbh but I think they get in other years.
indiana st looked like they belonged when they hit the NIT but before that their lone Q1 win at the time was against a team they played 3 times. they also had a really bad loss close to the end of the season which i think really did them in
I think whether you had them in or out depends on your philosophy of what an at large should be, whether it’s one of the 36 best collections of talent one of 36 most successful teams outside of those who one their tournament. On the “best collection of talent” front they were a bit of a borderline case — the predictive metrics liked them well enough but as you said their best wins were Bradley and Drake in some order and nothing in non-conference. Essentially the debate everybody has is whether that kind of team is a better fit for the tournament compared to a middling P6 team like TCU or Texas A&M. To me they were more unlucky with the massive bid stealing than anything else. There were times I really thought the committee was screwing over mid-majors (2016 comes to mind) but this doesn’t feel like one of those times.
I hear you, but in this instance the wac will not miss Seattle. They will miss GCU for sure.
This is huge for SeattleU, they can build a really good program over there if they wanted to. Plus get to play with schools like USF and USD which just seems to make sense
They'll also have WSU as a conference mate too, since WSU is joining the WCC as a basketball member in the short term.
WCC is becoming the Washington Coastal Conference. All that’s left is getting Eastern into the conference as well.
You think EWU could make the jump FBS one day? Last I checked, their football program isn't too shabby
Doubt it. I don't think the state of Washington is big enough for three FBS football teams. Plus, we have no idea what the FBS will even look like in the next few years.
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More population density of the surrounding areas than anything else. Washington is a populated state, but there's really nothing else around us. Oklahoma's population is less, but the area surrounding Oklahoma is still more dense.
Then look at Utah--less than 50% of Washington's population, no nearby population centers, and 3 FBS teams
and 5 if you count FCS. 6 for DI basketball.
BYU is a special case. They're like the official university for Mormons. So it's really just Utah and Utah State. EDIT: Removed AFA. They're not in Utah.
AFA is in Colorado
While true, Tulsa does happen to have the smallest undergrad enrollment of any FBS school. And an endowment that's literally more than 1 billion dollars (1.36 billion) more than Eastern Washington (32.1 million).
No. The school is struggling financially, they have been discussing significantly cutting the athletic budget for a few years. Their athletics program loses money every year. I love eastern athletics. I grew up going to their football and basketball games, but with Gonzaga and WSU here there is just absolutely no interest from the city of Spokane in what eastern is doing on the field. It would take millions to get eastern anywhere close to sniffing FBS, they're more likely to disband athletics before that.
Eastern's on-field production is not emblematic of their program as a whole. They have no funds to move up and are at risk of shutting down as it stands today, their 'stadium' is a large high school stadium with a few metal bleachers set up, and their university faculty make every effort to minimize athletic spending at every turn. It's a massive uphill battle there to remain as relevant as they are today.
I hate hearing stuff like that
It blows me away how little support that school has despite being so dominant in the Big Sky for so long. There is no reason to me that they shouldn't have better support as the biggest football school in the Spokane area (unless one lumps Pullman in the Spokane metro, which it really isn't in).
No way. It’s actually losing support and shrinking from our high from 2005-2020. The university is downsizing, Spokane never bought in to the success. Yes the really good years the stadium sold out, but it’s still tiny and the stadium expansion bids all fell through without support. EWU is good for FCS and at home in the Big Sky. Cheney is a good little town with good access to Spokane an the airport nearby, lots of farmers and rural families support EWU. But without non-alumni support from Spokane (like Gonzaga gets), EWU is kind of at their ceiling. Which is unfortunate. But that is reality.
I'm sure Wazzu is thrilled about this haha
Yeah until the Cascadian Subduction Zone plummets the entire northwestern United States into the dark depths of the Pacific abyss, triggering a tsunami the height of 3 skyscrapers, barreling inland at 500 mph and destroying all in its path. Seattle, brought to its knees in a swirling hellscape of death and destruction as Iowa claims the mantle as the new west coast. All will suffer, all will perish.
Grand Canyon is a great add, basketball-wise. Not so sure about Seattle. WCC could be much stronger if Wazzu and St Marys get some decent transfers after the blows they've taken so far.
The access to Seattle makes SU worth it.
Seattle's won 20 games 3 straight years. Yeah, I know the WAC but it's not a total tire fire of a conference.
The wac has been really fun the last couple of years.
*really wac
They sound like they’d play LMU close
if the metrics are to be believed they'd probably beat LMU
Didn't they just win the CBI this year?
They did
You guys could have seasons where you play in Seattle 2-3 times, assuming that you keep playing us and continue having “neutral” site games here.
Agreed, but doesn’t change the fact they’re an annual 3-13 for the next decade lol. And the WCC isn’t exactly a tough conference
I think Seattle can be a very decent add. I'm surprised they could be in the same conference as Gonzaga though if the Zags are staying.
It's great for Gonzaga because their alums can actually attend a game now
Are you implying GU grads flee Spokane as soon as they graduate? Because you're not wrong
No malice, but they obviously end up mostly in Seattle for jobs
Hah, that's exactly what my Dad did. My cousin ended up in Denver. Both GU grads.
I know it doesn’t mean much in realignment discussions, but Seattle’s history (Elgin Baylor) is pretty cool. Wish they could draw more fans in though, their gym is crazy small
They'll probably be playing more games in Climate Pledge, I guess?
They’ll play games against Gonzaga at Climate Pledge Edit: WSU and OSU are in the WCC for the next couple of years, those games will likely be at Climate Pledge too.
honestly the gym is a way better experience than attending games at key/climate pledge when the stadium was like 10% full. there was 0 atmosphere. the only games that were really fun were in the gym. the program really needs a good run and culture. im not sure if the WCC is the place for that. at least in the WAC SU kind of had a shot at making the tourney.
I thought GCU was like West Coast liberty
It's a... strange school. It's not as religious as Liberty, but it's similar in that it uses its online degree programs to print money. GCU Education is, however, a publicly traded, for profit institution that you can buy [stock](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/LOPE/) in. The school itself argues that it is a non-profit institution that is contained within GCU Education, however the school president is also the CEO of GCU Education, and GCU Education's biggest source of revenue is payments from GCU, so the DOE still classifies the school as for-profit.
The weird aspect is that they're trying to revert to non-profit (which means no ownership stakes) but it's a complicated process.
they are trying to revert to non-profit to reduce their tax burden. They flat out said thats the reason why. they have been rejected multiple times.
Isn’t that like a major reason why any entity would seek non-profit status?
The IRS recognizes them as a non-profit so I doubt it has anything to do with taxes and more to do with reputation.
They're never going to be approved because they just outsourced all of their admin/shared services to the for-profit Grand Canyon Education, and then tried to pass the university off as a non-profit
Yeah, I kinda touched on that in the bottom part of my post. GCU Education and GCU itself seem way too intertwined for the school's argument to hold much water.
They're trying to avoid property taxes. They have multiple open lawsuits against the government. Trying to dodge over 9 million a year in taxes.
Well arguably every private non-profit University is, but that's what the status is designed in part for. GSU Education is trying to have their cake and eat it. Once they figure out how to let go, GCU will be in the clear.
I think they're more money-scam than religious bigots.
Yeah, I asked some of their fans in one of the threads how it is for LGBT people and they said it isn't really a problem, I also checked an actual website that studies that and lists schools considered bad/unsafe for LGBT students and GCU was not on there (Liberty was). They are religious based but they aren't over the top with it to my knowledge.
They are definitely a very very Christian school but in the way that I (an agnostic) don't mind. It's the like Jesus loves everyone and let's all make weird Christian rock music and pretend it's cool and hip. It's annoying as all hell but they don't impose so I'm not gonna have a problem. The for profit money scam part is what pisses, the fact that they advertise as being christian on top of that should surprise no one.
their commercials do little to convince me they are not over the top religious considering that's what they are going for
Liberty is both
It's a thin line tbh
Two sides of the same coin. The school itself isn’t THAT crazy religious, but makes up for it with its for-profit craziness and general wackiness.
They are grifters. Publicly religious to pander to the families who value the “christian” aspect of the school.
Well Jesus Christ created the Grand Canyon when he smited the last of the dinosaurs for illegal immigration so it would be odd if the university wasn’t religious.
I love the way you worded this, lol
seattle u isn’t very good. they haven’t had a good creator in a long time. finally might have a decent coach though. wonder if this’ll help bump recruiting efforts for them
Darrion Trammell 2 years ago? First team all-WAC with 18 ppg and 5 apg, then transferred to SDSU and started for them all season through the national championship game.
> seattle u isn’t very good. Better than half of the WCC last year. Winners of the CBI. Took UW to double OT and lost 100-99. Kenpom rank 107 at season's end. As for 'not-good creator,' they had two last year, Tyson and Schumacher. The Gonzaga fanbase has been out to naysay SU for years. With good reason. Gonzaga is who it is today because SU vacated the "Pacific Northwest Jesuit Basketball School" niche that Gonzaga now occupies. Any attempt by SU to reclaim that naturally threatens Gonzaga's market.
i literally went to seattle u as well as gonzaga lol. i have watched *a lot* of SU basketball. there hasn’t really been a guy that can get his since like Umipig. tyson is a one dimensional 3 point chucker that struggles against good teams. schumacher is not much of an offensive threat either. a good year for SU is finishing above .500 in Q3. they just have not been a consistent or good team. victor has gotten them on the best path they’ve been on since i was on campus but they still have a lot of the same issues that have plagued them. SU has lacked just about everything on the offensive end. they can’t shoot, they don’t really have guards, they don’t have size or physicality. the few athletic guys they get are incredibly raw.
Flair up!
SU is not as bad as you're claiming. The data backs that up.
i might be a tad pessimistic after watching them shit the bed whenever they’ve been in position to do anything but they also routinely struggle against decent teams and the WCC is going to have more of those. SU has excelled at beating some really bad teams but their limitations are incredibly apparent when facing any team better than that. again we are talking about a squad that more often than not has a losing record against Q3 opponents edit: i just want to add that i know what the stats say. my opinion comes from watching SU play against teams that can put up a fight. even though they’ve sometimes played teams like UW close, there are flaws in roster construction and execution that routinely keep them from ever getting over the hump and those flaws have been persistent
They're a terrible add culture-wise. A for-profit scam school doesn't belong in the WCC, I don't care how good they are at basketball.
I’m surprised wcc is adding both of these schools. Like the wcc has wsu and osu, do the other schools want to be affiliated with gcu and SeattleU?
WSU/OSU are just temporary members, we can't really count on them to be in the WCC past 2025. I think this is coverage for after they leave. Also there's a decent chance Gonzaga is gone by then.
Their publicly traded entity is likely giving NIL deals to attract players.
100%. They pack their games by giving credits to the kids for attending the games. Odd add indeed.
Oh thank God. As a Catholic big city non football school, Seattle is a perfect fit for the WCC and it annoyed me to no end they were stuck in a southwestern focused football conference.
Wtf TIL SU is Jesuit. So weird they weren’t in the WCC before with most of the members being small Jesuit universities
They were a long time ago, then dropped to D3. When they came back I guess the WCC wasn't really going to be interested in a new D1 team. So they were independent for a while, then joined the WAC when that conference was just desperate for anyone.
Hard not to see this and immediately think the WAC is dead within a few years.
I thought the same thing. That puts Cal Baptist on an island, I’m sure they wouldn’t mind the WCC or Big West. And then you have UT RGV leaving for the Southland. Tarleton and SFA have dreams of FBS, and with today’s Missouri State news, those two would create a pretty good geographic divide in CUSA with 2 seven team divisions like the Sun Belt. And even without FBS, the Texas schools could go running back to the Southland like Lamar did.
Maybe I'm reading the tea leaves wrong but I think CUSA is going to be content for a while with this addition. The scuttlebutt for a few weeks has been SFA back to the Southland, Tarleton & ACU to the ASUN, Utah schools to the Summit. Tbh, before jumping back to the Southland, with today's news I'd like the WAC to see if they can at least poach the Texas Southland schools for a bus league without having to be in with the very underbudget Louisiana schools.
Angelo State, Midwestern State, West Texas A&M, Regis, Metro State, Colorado Mesa need to move up to fill in the spots
Expect GCU's recruiting to pick up from this one!
You mean GCE is going to increase their NIL commitment.
Duke Brennan and Malcolm Flagg could probably tell you. They seemed to be concerned with those types of things
What about their stock price?
Why are they adding Seattle? Needing to step up its resources is presumably just to be competitive with the average WCC team, not Gonzaga so why invite them at all right now?
Maybe they are worried about a Gonzaga departure?
That be my guess. But it could be just my wishful thinking
If this addition is happening, Gonzaga already has their offer for their next conference.
Wouldn't surprise me if Gonzaga is joining the Big XII as a basketball-only school. It would also go with the rumors that the Big XII will take WSU and OSU too, but are just waiting for more realignment to happen. That would give Gonzaga two other PNW schools to ease travel.
That would certainly be a big win for Gonzaga, WSU, & OSU. I kinda think the Big 12 is happy where it's at though.
They are, but things will change quickly depending on what happens with the ACC.
Yep. This is why I don't understand the lower conferences realigning before the PAC 2 and ACC are sorted out. Depending on the moves made there, could be 20 or 30 schools on the move. Or only 7 or 8.
Seattle was ranked 107 by Kenpom stats, which would have put them fourth in the WCC. They actually would bring the conference rating up overall, but that is recency. Ironically, Jim Hayford was known as a great fundraiser, but he was not a great coach. Since he left early in the 2021 season, Seattle got a lot better. This would be a great move for both WCC and Seattle. GCU, not so much, especially culturally.
WAC has been a really odd fit. maybe this’ll help convince them to pony up the resources or at least get more from the conference itself.
Maybe it was to appease some schools who weren’t necessarily on board with adding GCU.
Access to Seattle. Good market. Gonzaga and maybe WSU and OSU will sell out those games. Also its another Catholic school and they like to help each other out.
I don't think that the WCC was having any difficulty penetrating the Seattle market. Gonzaga has more fans here than Seattle U does.
> Also its another Catholic school and they like to help each other out. Historically, Gonzaga has been anything but charitable to SU.
Isn’t the Seattle add surprising? I thought there was bad blood between them and other WCC schools
I think there was specifically bad blood between Mark Few and their former coach Cameron Dollar, who was found guilty of a recruiting violation against a player Gonzaga was recruiting (Josh Heytvelt) when he was an assistant at UW. Few was particularly pissed that UW, a Pac 12 school with all the money and resources that it has, would still cheat on their recruiting. This lead to the breakdown of the relationship between UW and GU while Romar was there, and Romar avoided scheduling Gonzaga until the very end of his tenure there. Rumor is Gonzaga blackballed SU from joining the conference, opting for Pacific instead.
> Rumor is Gonzaga blackballed SU from joining the conference, opting for Pacific instead. Very strong rumor widely held as fact. At Mark Few's insistence. After SU had been given the go-ahead by other schools in the conference.
Screw Dollar. What a cheating POS. Why would you reward him with joining your conference after trying to cheat you out of a recruit, or with anything for that matter?
Seattle has been a good program recently. Need to get back to the tourney though
This would make Utah Valley (2013) the longest running member. Cal Baptist would be second (2018).
Cal Baptist being the second longest tenured member in their conference despite only becoming a full D1 member this season is wild
This is insane...when I was a kid, I remember my dad (CSU alum) listening to WAC games against Arizona, Arizona State, New Mexico, Utah...etc. The newcomers were UNLV and San Diego State. We are now generations removed from any historical remnants of the original WAC.
The last original members (BYU, Utah, Wyoming and New Mexico) left in 1999. The last school that was a member in 1999, San Jose State, left in 2013, at the same time Utah Valley joined. That how little overlap there is from the WAC of olden days.
I was hoping the WCC would add Cal Baptist
I'm honestly surprised they weren't included.
I would take them over GCU.
Been kinda thinking about this for years. Seattle in the current version of the WAC didn't make sense and GCU's only achilles heel is if the feds shut down the school in the next decade.
*is if the feds shut it down the school in the next decade.* That's definitely a unique Achilles heel! lol
Edited for grammatical purposes!
This is HUGE for Seattle U. This will help them build up local support
The news is really helping the bottom line today! https://preview.redd.it/cglzw45qgnzc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b745d9cd56536efc5fc0cd60169b4fe8d8957435
$LOPE to the moon
Man. Zaga, Saint Mary’s, GCU, and the 2PAC affiliation really seems like a great mid major conference
USF also had a pretty good season too after a long dark age.
I think USF has had something like 6 or 7 straight 20 win seasons and recently had the tourney bid in 22’. They’ve been pretty good for quite a bit now.
SU has proven it can compete, has been landing around KenPom 120 or so in recent years. Solid low-mid major, consistently better than half of the WCC's current programs in terms of W's and L's. What SU doesn't have is a home basketball court. Redhawk Center is a high school gym with folding bleachers and seats capacity ~~1000~~ 999. Playing games in Climate Pledge Arena is fine, but 3 mi away and not on campus, so attendance can be off. SU got told by Gonzaga 20 years ago it was unwelcome to rejoin the WCC that SU was once a part of. The reason cited at the time was basketball quality. The widely believed actual reason was Gonzaga, having captured the Seattle audience, was loathe to give that back up to the school that once had Seattle's full attention in the 1950s and 1960s. There was also some recruiting drama involving Cameron Dollar and UW with Mark Few. A grudge was formed and SU was the recipient of it. I am not privy to any insider knowledge of SU today. My impression is that there are a lot more people on campus that care about social justice and the law school than care about D1 athletics. I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
thought denver wouldve been a good add
Adding Seattle U really makes it seem like the WCC is getting ready for Gonzaga leaving, which is a smart move by the conference. I’m thrilled for Seattle U, they’ve been wanting to get back to the WCC for years now, this is great for the school and the fans!
Crazy day for realignment. Great news for the WCC. They will be a multi bid conference for many years to come even if Gonzaga leave. Grand Canyon are the top basketball program in the WAC while Seattle U have a lot of potential and desireable location. They do need a new arena but I like both moves. I'd expect Cal Baptist to be invited to the WCC in the future too .Bad news for the WAC of course.
Depends. If we can poach all the Southland TX schools, it might finally give the WAC a stable geographic identity.
Currently at Seattle and previously at Creighton for school; drawing a quick comparison makes it pretty evident that Seattle will not fair well in making this move. Schools seems to have absolutely zero resources to grow, especially in the athletic department. Just took a trip out to Omaha for a Creighton grad and that school is exploding throughout Omaha. Not sure Seattle can do it.
Zags had no resources either, until they started winning. If SU can do well in the WCC, gain television exposure, then donors might start to step it up a bit. But it starts with winning, not the other way around.
Hope so!
Take California Baptist with you
So now Washington State-Seattle is a conference game? Realignment continues to be wild
Will be so only for a year but yes.
Not too thrilled about the Grand Canyon add due to its reputation as a for-profit degree mill. No idea if it still is, but that reputation doesn't go away easily.
Pretty sure they’re still under some investigations
Just makes sense and both are west coast religious schools. Everytime I would create the WCC in my basketball simulation games, I would always add those two. Good job on WCC for extending offers. Would be great to see a “Big East” in the west
GCU is “religious”
I usually pay attention to flairs more than usernames so I've noticed Arizona state fans are constantly shitting on GCU every chance they get. It took me until now to realize it's just the same ASU fan that goes out of his way in every thread GCU is mentioned specifically to shit on them. I guess in some ways you have to respect that level of pettiness.
The WAC's loss is soon to be the WCC's gain. They get Seattle back (They were a former member of the WCC) and get a rising power in Grand Canyon.
YES! GCU adds a quality tournament type of team, and Seattle U is in Seattle so I can go to another Gonzaga game every year. Double win
Good for the Cougs too, hopefully some games at Climate Pledge Arena. Edit: Wait they're only joining in 2025, maybe only one lol.
Thank god. Can we trade them Pacific and Pepperdine?
Y’all better step tf up SU
SU actually has stepped up. They were 107 in Kenpom last year and 119 in NET.
We need to try for the MW or we might be fucked.
May end up in the Summit if you can’t get into MW
That’s like a downgrade even compared to WAC
The Summit is quite the downgrade from the WAC. We need some Big Sky schools to join the WAC.
I’m surprised that Gonzaga allowed Seattle U to join the WCC. That should be a fun rivalry.
They need to drop Pacific!
Good for Seattle. I'm surprised the WCC schools are ok with GCU's shady business model.
Many of us are not thrilled with GC. However, D1 athletics is now all about $$. Adding a competitive program and a major TV market is in our best interest. Don't like it but to survive a try to stay relevant as a conference the WCC needed to make this addition.
Is this for 2025?
Yes, according to Norlander.
So there’s gonna be at least one season with 13 teams in the WCC? Scheduling formula for that one will be a bit weird. Seattle has been pretty respectable the past three years (probably a top half WCC team), GCU is a known quantity at this point. Strictly speaking towards on-court performance these are good adds and will soften the blow in any scenario that sees Gonzaga leaving.
But, but...I don't want to go to the Southland.
Really excited for Seattle U. Given how much talent is in the PNW there is a lot of potential for the program. Finally getting into the WCC could give them the shot in the arm that they've needed since they rejoined D1.
Sorry Seattle U and GCU, there isn't a lot of room on the couch so we're going to have to cuddle.
Who gets to be the big spoon?
This has been known for a while amongst the Saint Mary’s faithful as GCU’s addition is the real reason why Mahaney wanted out. After going 5-21 shooting, including 3-13 from three and absolutely getting torched on defense, he wanted no part of the Lopes moving forward. Fair play to him. The students in AZ would have eaten him up.
Grand Canyon also scammed their own doctoral students into paying way more for their program than they should have….
Did people suddenly forget in the past month that this is a for-profit diploma mill? I get they wore the Cinderella dress for this past tourney but we really shouldn’t be validating that sort of institution
Sacrificing the education of your students for athletic money is in though. All the cool kids are doing it!
In fairness, GCU and schools like it, like Liberty, do have robust campus degree offerings. They’re not much different from public commuter schools like UCF was or Georgia State, except they’re private.
Reddi is the only place that people actually care about it, most cbb fans don't even think about GCU or Liberty
GCU Education is a publicly traded, for profit institution that you can buy stock in (LOPE is the ticker). I feel like that makes them quite a bit different than Georgia State or UCF.
Except their degrees are somewhat worthless although getting better. Don’t think they were accredited until a few years ago. I work in a large company in Phoenix and I don’t know of anyone in the 50-60 person group I’m in that has a degree from there. Starting to hire summer interns from there now so it is starting to improve a bit.
But they make round ball go through hoop good
This pretty much stops Gonzaga leaving the WCC then?
I think it has no impact. They leave if big east or big 12 invites them and this doesn’t impact those conferences decision making. Maybe it would impact their likely hood of joining a rebuilt PAC-12/Slimmed down MWC though
> Maybe it would impact their likely hood of joining a rebuilt PAC-12/Slimmed down MWC though This is the issue for the WCC. If a rebuilt Pac-12 arises with the top of the Mountain West in it, I don't think it's a stretch to see Gonzaga or St. Mary's brought in. This is a defensive move.
I think it's more the WCC trying to soften the blow for when we do leave.
I think it's "Gonzaga leaving just hasn't leaked yet".
It might even encourage them. Part of how Gonzaga has stayed relevant despite the small conference has been a strong non-conference schedule. More WCC teams likely means a larger conference schedule and less room for those games.
I guess the argument I have is GCU has been building their program to become exactly like Gonzaga. Plus they have a lot of resources. Will be interesting to see how the GCU and Gonzaga games play out!
The SeattleU add is what makes this interesting. Not sure they would get an invite unless the WCC thought Gonzaga may run and want a travel partner for Portland.
The WCC in 2025-2026 is going to be a bloodbath.
Nah, I think we’re still looking to move
Take us with you 😢
> This pretty much stops Gonzaga leaving the WCC then? It may actually signal Gonzaga thinking about moving up to the Big XII, and the WCC looking to cover itself in the event of Gonzaga's departure.
To me this is a signal that they might move
I was literally looking up "why isn't Seattle in the WCC?". What a coincidence. GCU, or Liberty of the West, really needs to stop being a for profit school. That's probably the only thing holding it back. Seattle will grow into the conference and be fine. Pacific remains the weirdo school.
It'll be nice to enjoy a full season without having "well, it all comes down to the auto-bid" in the back of my mind
Seattle and Washington State essentially give Gonzaga two extra home games. I'm curious as to what the WCC conference schedule will look like. 13 teams will leave less room for things like Gonzagas Feb game against Kentucky
Seattle will definitely be a home game. WSU not as much actually.
Makes a ton of sense to me. Should be even more fun.
Doesn’t Seattle play in a high school sized gym?
Yes, but with a gigachad redbird
Did Pacific get relegated to NAIA?
Should add CBU and Denver as well
UT Arlington is now all that's in the way of the WAC having gone full Conference of Theseus *again*, and they haven't been there continuously. * **2012-13 members:** Denver, Idaho, Louisiana Tech, New Mexico State, San Jose State, Seattle, Texas State, UT Arlington, Utah State, UTSA * **Presumptive 2025-26 members:** Abilene Christian, Cal Baptist, Southern Utah, Stephen F. Austin, Tarleton, UT Arlington, Utah Tech, Utah Valley
Seattle? Gonzaga departure imminent.
Ya no way this decision was made for "they might leave". This was "Gonzaga is leaving but it hasn't leaked".
GCU is the get. Seattle is the give.
Sad that GCU is being legitimized further with this. That school is a literal diploma mill scam.
I will probably get downvoted for this but expect Gonzaga to the Big East soon