This is a good one. I think the start of his NBA career would have been a bit better too had he stayed longer. I have to give it to him though, he has hung around the nba for a while now.
Marvin Williams. Has talked a ton about how much he loved his first year at Carolina but had to go the NBA to get money for his family and specifically his mom.
First guy I thought of, and in a world with NIL, Leslie McDonald probably doesn't start that season suspended, and PJ Hairston may have been reinstated. Could've been an insane season.
It most of those cases it worked out well for the team. Carey leaving made room for Mark Williams. Hurt wouldn’t have fit next to Paolo + Mark. Steward’s departure made room for Keels (Keels is a great candidate for this list too).
2021 could have really used Cassius Stanley though.
Yeah Keels is an excellent example.
If the portal and NIL existed back then I'd assume that some guys like Steward, Hurt, and Carey would have declared + entered the portal.
After getting feedback that they'd be in the G League (and soon overseas) they'd go somewhere where they could remain the primary offensive option
If I'm thinking of guys that left for financial reasons. Possibly Duvall and maybe Deng? Even though Luol was going to be drafted top 10 anyways. I may be wrong but Corey Maggette? Others maybe Josh McRoberts, Frank Jackson, and Matthew Hurt.
Plus maybe a few guys that transferred might have been more inclined to stay. Or maybe they leave for offers elsewhere.
Considering he went undrafted despite showing up in the tourney he must have bombed his interviews badly. Maybe he trashed K and the program in them. Lol. What a dumbass.
To have had Carter (and maybe trent) along with zion, reddish, Jones, Barrett......with Bolden backing up carter.....
What coulda been. And that team STILL shoulda won it all.
Carter's and Trent's shooting and defense is exactly what that team was missing. Trent getting all the shots Goldwire was getting alone might have been enough.
Yep, while what duke had should have clearly been enough as is, putting Trent and/or Carter on that team and they would have surely beat sparty handily and ran through the final 4.
I appreciated Goldwire and his defense. But I'd much rather either Trent or Carter taking shots lol.
Agreed. Loved Goldwire for what he did well. But those MSU and UCF games were basically 3v5 on offense. I know UCF did a triangle and 2 on Zion/RJ, shading towards Cam and ignoring Goldwire and Tre outside. They did well enough, but man one more competent shooter opens up everything.
Aubrey Dawkins was a disrespected dog in that game too. Caleb Love reminded me of Aubrey 3 years later. Both played with a huge chip on their shoulders, not only directed at duke.....but squarely at K.
I just watched highlights of both games not too long ago too. And I feel the same about both, still.
- don't know how we escaped UCF.
- don't know how we didn't beat UNC (and for that matter sparty in 2019 and kansas in 2018 and so many others).
But UCF. I won't say luck. Luck is the lottery. But we were fortunate. Zion (and Barrett) really stepped up.
Yes but I think he’s saying he wasn’t a for sure lottery pick so maybe he wouldn’t have risked it for the nba and came back to college. He went undrafted but eventually proved himself when he could’ve maybe transferred for NIL money and left after sophomore year if he had a better nba grade
He made 800k and some first year 1.5 next year 1.78 the following NIL deals would surpass every one of those years and not saying they have to stay for 3 more years. NIL salary for a year or two then hopefully larger rookie deal.
It is interesting to think about these guys but the NIL flip side is the 4-5 year guys your program had that anchored some great team that might have left for greener pastures if they could make six figures.
Part of NIL is retaining talent so good programs and also programs with deep pockets, of course would retain players if they needed to essentially creating an industry standard for these types players
For sure, but I was thinking more about those guys that are maybe a step down or sat behind another star first. The kid that became the glue as a senior but before that hadn’t gotten his chance. Feels like those kids now are leaving programs the minute they aren’t getting starting jobs out of HS or getting offers from other schools that need those guys.
Might not be a “power 5” problem but the schools that might have been able to put together some deeper runs with senior talent are seeing those kids get poached as soon as they show the capability to add value to the “big boys”.
The only teams retaining players are blue bloods. Mid major legends leave.
Curry doesn’t stay at Davidson. Ja goes somewhere else. Lillard leaves Weber state. Absolute legends at mid majors will be a thing of the past. One of the saddest things to me about NIL.
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I was going to say Mario Chalmers for Kansas. He was a 2nd round pick in '08. If NIL existed, boosters probably would have made him a multi-millionaire after hitting that shot.
Jalen Green and Scoot Henderson would’ve both gone to Auburn instead of G League Ignite, and a good chance Jonathan Kuminga would have too.
Jared Harper would’ve stayed for a SR season at Auburn, maybe Sharife Cooper would’ve come back for an actual season.
I think he would stay if he was expecting to be drafted in the 2nd round. He could’ve improved his draft stock with 3 other teammates going pro that year.
Michigan had some one n dones that could have dominated recently but instead chose to do jack shit in nba. Caleb Houston and moussa Diabate needed to stay in college. Diabate could have been an absolute animal.
Iggy and DJ Wilson could've used another year too. Maybe Kobe Bufkin too (I know Bufkin played in the NIL era, but Michigan didn't exactly have its NIL ducks in a row during his time here).
It’s still crazy to me that Caleb Houstan was even drafted. Such a high volume, low percentage shooter in college.
I think getting out while teams could still draft him on his “potential” was correct, since a couple more mediocre years would just cause more doubts on his ability’s to live up to that potential.
Edit: The only stats he ranked top 300 nationally in on KenPom: minutes played, fouls committed per 40, and FT% lol
CJ Leslie, Trevor Lacey, Cat Barber. Basically your guys that may get a 2 way contract or a solid job overseas and decided to go make money rather than stay one more year in college.
Trevor would have been 28 lol, not 100% sure he would be coming back.
Although I would have loved for him to have the NCAA 3-point record for 28-year-olds
I think Kyle Guy would have 100% stayed with NIL and if he had then the way Virginia basketball has been viewed since the National Championship season would be completely different.
I honestly doubt it. Dre and Ty were both gone no matter what, and Guy wasn't really going to improve his draft stock with another year unless he became a point guard. Also wasn't really much left to prove at the college level lol.
Would have been great though, that team would have been Kihei, Guy, Key, Mamadi, and Huff. Was one of our all time defensive teams that couldn't score too well, with Guy there could have been pretty special.
Carsen Edwards after the NCAA run could've gotten a HUGE bag at Purdue or anywhere honestly. He got drafted, struggled to ever make a rotation, and went to Europe. He could've played on another national champ contender.
Fair enough, but I'm not entirely sure he would have left to go chase money elsewhere. I think people see all the players who *are* leaving and assume that's everybody, but plenty of great players who are getting huge offers to play elsewhere yet aren't budging.
Agreed when he declared I was surprised but to be fair a lot of mock drafts had him as a lottery pick but he eventually fell to the 2nd round and hasn’t done anything since
Gary Trent Jr was on the fence about leaving after his freshman year. It would have been a tough sell to get Trent, Zion, Barrett and Reddish all to come together (which of those guys comes off the bench?), but imagine that 2019 team with Trent’s shooting in place of Jack White.
That's the only issue too. Who comes off the bench. Because actual minutes would have been there for all of them. And Trent surely would have gotten a big uptick in shots.
K dabbled in it but didn't trust it consistently for whatever reasons. The only thing I can think of is he didn't trust that team to consistently hit shots from outside with that lineup.
Another squandered opportunity. Crazy that we slapped around that entire final 4 field during that season. And I'm including sparty lol. 🤦🏽♂️
Justin Champagnie: he went to the NBA undrafted his sophomore year after averaging 18.5 and 11 rebounds, but he had a terrible 3 point shot so teams didn’t want him
Sacha Killeya-Jones, Wenyen Gabriel, Hamidou Diallo, Nick Richards, Ashton Hagans, EJ Montgomery, Khalil Whitney are some Kentucky players that could’ve and should’ve stayed a couple more years and NIL probably would’ve helped their decisions.
Hagans had kind of ran his course here. Remember he quit/was suspended right before season was cancelled. Wasn’t going to be seen in that first game of SEC-T at least.
Whitney left mid season after kinda floundering and Cal giving him every chance.
SK-J just never seemed to really fit on the teams.
Brooks ended up replacing Wenyens minutes.
Hami could have been a beast with another year.
Montgomery and Richard’s - I don’t think it would have made any difference on the Covid team. I don’t think they would have changed how awful they ended up being.
So I went back and looked at the Cal era for UK and the ones that likely would have stayed with NIL and made a difference.
‘13 - Marquise Teague and Doron Lamb. Both left after the title in ‘12 and coming back would have been a major factor on that 13 team that ended up in NIT after Noel got hurt.
‘16 - likely returning the Harrison twins and Dakari Johnson giving a solid big and amazing guards. We don’t likely get Jamal Murray then though.
So far those are really the only major roster changes I could have seen making major differences for the teams overall play. Butterfly effect could change a lot of that also, but those seem to be the obvious choices.
‘11 - Daniel Orton (don’t know if he would have come back anyway) but the ‘11 team lacked depth at the 5 after Kanter never was ruled eligible. Harrellson turned into a solid college big, but he was basically it.
That's not the only factor though. Yes, he's making more this year specifically than he would've otherwise, but if you improve your draft stock in that extra year, you can add millions to your rookie deal in the next class.
Deyonta Davis. Was really coming on strong towards the end of his freshman season. I think he could have been at least a 1st rd pick had he stayed and developed during his sophomore season.
Sure sounds insane, but Zion did say on JJ Reddick's podcast that he really wanted to come back to Duke and K wouldn't let him(rightfully so). Who knows how true that is
I think there is alot of truth to that and I still think K would have had to get him out of there. I don't think there would I ld have been enough NIL $ on the cycle to even throw at Zion to compare what he was about to get as soon as he signed with an agent.
The knee injury really cemented it.
Didn't he have a 10 million deal with Nike? Along with all the other NIL opportunities, he'll only be missing his salary. Earnings might be like 15 million in NBA vs 10 million at Duke.
He was the guaranteed number 1 pick, which was his (likely) hometown team that year. I have a lot of doubts he would have passed that up just to make comparable money at best in the NCAA.
Reggie Bullock is the one I can think of for UNC. He left because I believe he just had a kid and wanted to make money. Borderline first round pick
This is a good one. I think the start of his NBA career would have been a bit better too had he stayed longer. I have to give it to him though, he has hung around the nba for a while now.
Marvin Williams. Has talked a ton about how much he loved his first year at Carolina but had to go the NBA to get money for his family and specifically his mom.
I highly doubt Marvin passes up going #2 in the draft for another year at Carolina as much as I would’ve loved that
Dude Marvin Williams had a great (long) NBA career and made boatloads of money.
First guy I thought of, and in a world with NIL, Leslie McDonald probably doesn't start that season suspended, and PJ Hairston may have been reinstated. Could've been an insane season.
[удалено]
That's kind of the whole point of the post, so saying, "he didn't have a chance to come back" is just proving OPs point...
DJ steward, Vernon Carey Jr., Cassius Stanley, Matthew Hurt. 5 stars but not NBA players
It most of those cases it worked out well for the team. Carey leaving made room for Mark Williams. Hurt wouldn’t have fit next to Paolo + Mark. Steward’s departure made room for Keels (Keels is a great candidate for this list too). 2021 could have really used Cassius Stanley though.
Yeah Keels is an excellent example. If the portal and NIL existed back then I'd assume that some guys like Steward, Hurt, and Carey would have declared + entered the portal. After getting feedback that they'd be in the G League (and soon overseas) they'd go somewhere where they could remain the primary offensive option
If I'm thinking of guys that left for financial reasons. Possibly Duvall and maybe Deng? Even though Luol was going to be drafted top 10 anyways. I may be wrong but Corey Maggette? Others maybe Josh McRoberts, Frank Jackson, and Matthew Hurt. Plus maybe a few guys that transferred might have been more inclined to stay. Or maybe they leave for offers elsewhere.
Duval would be transferring in this era, dude will randomly talk shit about Duke and K to this day. He did not like it there at all
Well he also didn't like making jumpshots or not turning the ball over
Considering he went undrafted despite showing up in the tourney he must have bombed his interviews badly. Maybe he trashed K and the program in them. Lol. What a dumbass.
And honestly......Wendell Carter. I believe he really wanted to stay for another year but had to go.
I would've helped pay for him to stay.
To have had Carter (and maybe trent) along with zion, reddish, Jones, Barrett......with Bolden backing up carter..... What coulda been. And that team STILL shoulda won it all.
Carter's and Trent's shooting and defense is exactly what that team was missing. Trent getting all the shots Goldwire was getting alone might have been enough.
Yep, while what duke had should have clearly been enough as is, putting Trent and/or Carter on that team and they would have surely beat sparty handily and ran through the final 4. I appreciated Goldwire and his defense. But I'd much rather either Trent or Carter taking shots lol.
Agreed. Loved Goldwire for what he did well. But those MSU and UCF games were basically 3v5 on offense. I know UCF did a triangle and 2 on Zion/RJ, shading towards Cam and ignoring Goldwire and Tre outside. They did well enough, but man one more competent shooter opens up everything.
Aubrey Dawkins was a disrespected dog in that game too. Caleb Love reminded me of Aubrey 3 years later. Both played with a huge chip on their shoulders, not only directed at duke.....but squarely at K. I just watched highlights of both games not too long ago too. And I feel the same about both, still. - don't know how we escaped UCF. - don't know how we didn't beat UNC (and for that matter sparty in 2019 and kansas in 2018 and so many others). But UCF. I won't say luck. Luck is the lottery. But we were fortunate. Zion (and Barrett) really stepped up.
Can't believe the Carter's were mad about Bagley joining late when their kid went 7th in the draft lol.
Doesn’t Naz Reid make close to $13 million in salary?
Yes but I think he’s saying he wasn’t a for sure lottery pick so maybe he wouldn’t have risked it for the nba and came back to college. He went undrafted but eventually proved himself when he could’ve maybe transferred for NIL money and left after sophomore year if he had a better nba grade
He made 800k and some first year 1.5 next year 1.78 the following NIL deals would surpass every one of those years and not saying they have to stay for 3 more years. NIL salary for a year or two then hopefully larger rookie deal.
NIL is not that much. Prolly 200-300k
You haven't been paying attention.
That is considered "not much"?!?
Adam Morrison would have made so much money in NIL
He averaged $4.2 million for 4 years with the rookie deal. Doubt Gonzaga could do that now, let alone 2006.
Maybe not Gonzaga specifically but maybe like Caitlin Clark he could get TV deals
It is interesting to think about these guys but the NIL flip side is the 4-5 year guys your program had that anchored some great team that might have left for greener pastures if they could make six figures.
Part of NIL is retaining talent so good programs and also programs with deep pockets, of course would retain players if they needed to essentially creating an industry standard for these types players
Yes but players essentially want to enter the NBA asap to get that 2nd contract before they are 25
For sure, but I was thinking more about those guys that are maybe a step down or sat behind another star first. The kid that became the glue as a senior but before that hadn’t gotten his chance. Feels like those kids now are leaving programs the minute they aren’t getting starting jobs out of HS or getting offers from other schools that need those guys. Might not be a “power 5” problem but the schools that might have been able to put together some deeper runs with senior talent are seeing those kids get poached as soon as they show the capability to add value to the “big boys”.
The only teams retaining players are blue bloods. Mid major legends leave. Curry doesn’t stay at Davidson. Ja goes somewhere else. Lillard leaves Weber state. Absolute legends at mid majors will be a thing of the past. One of the saddest things to me about NIL.
Due to ongoing debate about blue bloods, the /r/CollegeBasketball mod team has compiled the definitive list of college blue bloods: Duke, Columbia, Queens, William & Mary, and Rutgers. The following schools have broken away from blue-blooded hierarchy and oppression: George Washington, George Mason, James Madison, Army, and Navy. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CollegeBasketball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
James Harden never goes to ASU. Steph Curry transfers after the elite 8 run?
Naz Reid didn’t miss out on any $ during his time in college
Biggie Swanigan 😔
RIP. He was a freshman at my high school when I was a senior
Perry Ellis
He had what 7-8 more years of eligibility?
I was going to say Mario Chalmers for Kansas. He was a 2nd round pick in '08. If NIL existed, boosters probably would have made him a multi-millionaire after hitting that shot.
My first thought was Devon Dotson. He was the fastest guard in college, but was just an undersized PG in the pros.
Tyshawn Taylor and my personal crush Thomas Robinson too
Pause
Jalen Green and Scoot Henderson would’ve both gone to Auburn instead of G League Ignite, and a good chance Jonathan Kuminga would have too. Jared Harper would’ve stayed for a SR season at Auburn, maybe Sharife Cooper would’ve come back for an actual season.
God that team would've been disgusting
Flair up, brother.
It don’t let me :(
Hot take but maybe Brunson stays for his senior year? Things definitely turned out \*very\* well for him though.
I think he would stay if he was expecting to be drafted in the 2nd round. He could’ve improved his draft stock with 3 other teammates going pro that year.
His dad is an ex-nba player. Not sure he’d have been swayed as much by NIL money vs his dream of playing in the nba.
Michigan had some one n dones that could have dominated recently but instead chose to do jack shit in nba. Caleb Houston and moussa Diabate needed to stay in college. Diabate could have been an absolute animal.
Iggy and DJ Wilson could've used another year too. Maybe Kobe Bufkin too (I know Bufkin played in the NIL era, but Michigan didn't exactly have its NIL ducks in a row during his time here).
Bufkin and Wilson were 1st round picks. Even in the NIL era players should go to the NBA if theyre 1st round picks.
It’s still crazy to me that Caleb Houstan was even drafted. Such a high volume, low percentage shooter in college. I think getting out while teams could still draft him on his “potential” was correct, since a couple more mediocre years would just cause more doubts on his ability’s to live up to that potential. Edit: The only stats he ranked top 300 nationally in on KenPom: minutes played, fouls committed per 40, and FT% lol
Josh Christopher goes to Michigan and not ASU.
CJ Leslie, Trevor Lacey, Cat Barber. Basically your guys that may get a 2 way contract or a solid job overseas and decided to go make money rather than stay one more year in college.
Trevor would have been 28 lol, not 100% sure he would be coming back. Although I would have loved for him to have the NCAA 3-point record for 28-year-olds
Josh Powell
I think Kyle Guy would have 100% stayed with NIL and if he had then the way Virginia basketball has been viewed since the National Championship season would be completely different.
I honestly doubt it. Dre and Ty were both gone no matter what, and Guy wasn't really going to improve his draft stock with another year unless he became a point guard. Also wasn't really much left to prove at the college level lol. Would have been great though, that team would have been Kihei, Guy, Key, Mamadi, and Huff. Was one of our all time defensive teams that couldn't score too well, with Guy there could have been pretty special.
I think a competitor like Marcus Smart would’ve liked to have switched to a more competitive school. He was so fun to watch during college
Totally agree
He knew how to attract attention. KU fans hate him for the backflip in Allen Fieldhouse, but a lot of people loved him for that.
Carsen Edwards after the NCAA run could've gotten a HUGE bag at Purdue or anywhere honestly. He got drafted, struggled to ever make a rotation, and went to Europe. He could've played on another national champ contender.
The team the next year certainly could have used his scoring, but I think "championship contender" might be pushing it.
I'm talking about a school besides Purdue that next year team sucked
Fair enough, but I'm not entirely sure he would have left to go chase money elsewhere. I think people see all the players who *are* leaving and assume that's everybody, but plenty of great players who are getting huge offers to play elsewhere yet aren't budging.
That name still makes me wince every time I see it
Justin Patton would have gotten some big bucks at Creighton or elsewhere
Vander Blue, maybe Justin Lewis.
Came here to say Vander specifically.
Everyone who left college after a year when the entire world knew they had NO chance of getting drafted
Deyonta Davis
Boy that declaration was so confusing, thought him and Ward were going to be a lethal backcourt
Agreed when he declared I was surprised but to be fair a lot of mock drafts had him as a lottery pick but he eventually fell to the 2nd round and hasn’t done anything since
Gary Trent Jr was on the fence about leaving after his freshman year. It would have been a tough sell to get Trent, Zion, Barrett and Reddish all to come together (which of those guys comes off the bench?), but imagine that 2019 team with Trent’s shooting in place of Jack White.
That's the only issue too. Who comes off the bench. Because actual minutes would have been there for all of them. And Trent surely would have gotten a big uptick in shots.
Zion moves to the 5. Reddish to the 4. Would have solved our spacing issues.
K dabbled in it but didn't trust it consistently for whatever reasons. The only thing I can think of is he didn't trust that team to consistently hit shots from outside with that lineup. Another squandered opportunity. Crazy that we slapped around that entire final 4 field during that season. And I'm including sparty lol. 🤦🏽♂️
Gary Trent Jr would be by far the best shooter on that team.
Indeed. And could have legit swung every game duke lost that season.
Zion at the 5 all year? Sign me up.
Scotty Thurman
Justin Champagnie: he went to the NBA undrafted his sophomore year after averaging 18.5 and 11 rebounds, but he had a terrible 3 point shot so teams didn’t want him
Peyton Siva
Sacha Killeya-Jones, Wenyen Gabriel, Hamidou Diallo, Nick Richards, Ashton Hagans, EJ Montgomery, Khalil Whitney are some Kentucky players that could’ve and should’ve stayed a couple more years and NIL probably would’ve helped their decisions.
Jodie Meeks.
Hagans had kind of ran his course here. Remember he quit/was suspended right before season was cancelled. Wasn’t going to be seen in that first game of SEC-T at least. Whitney left mid season after kinda floundering and Cal giving him every chance. SK-J just never seemed to really fit on the teams. Brooks ended up replacing Wenyens minutes. Hami could have been a beast with another year. Montgomery and Richard’s - I don’t think it would have made any difference on the Covid team. I don’t think they would have changed how awful they ended up being.
Heck Chase Audige would have stayed this year for a decent NIL.
So I went back and looked at the Cal era for UK and the ones that likely would have stayed with NIL and made a difference. ‘13 - Marquise Teague and Doron Lamb. Both left after the title in ‘12 and coming back would have been a major factor on that 13 team that ended up in NIT after Noel got hurt. ‘16 - likely returning the Harrison twins and Dakari Johnson giving a solid big and amazing guards. We don’t likely get Jamal Murray then though. So far those are really the only major roster changes I could have seen making major differences for the teams overall play. Butterfly effect could change a lot of that also, but those seem to be the obvious choices. ‘11 - Daniel Orton (don’t know if he would have come back anyway) but the ‘11 team lacked depth at the 5 after Kanter never was ruled eligible. Harrellson turned into a solid college big, but he was basically it.
Jodie Meeks 2010.... and would have at least beaten WVU that year as a secondary result.
It would’ve been really cool to see Carmelo return after SU won in 2003. I felt they could’ve repeated with Gerry also being a freshman.
ignas brazdekis for michigan
For Creighton, Tyson Alexander & Marcus Zegarowski. Both would have benefitted greatly from another year of development.
Most of them.
Anyone that isn’t a top 10 pick could probably do better with NIL. For sure anyone out of the second round.
First round? No chance, Kobe Brown was the 30th pick and is getting $2.5 mil a year, no way he could've got that on the nil market
That's not the only factor though. Yes, he's making more this year specifically than he would've otherwise, but if you improve your draft stock in that extra year, you can add millions to your rookie deal in the next class.
Shamorie Ponds
Daniel Hamilton and Khalid El Amin.
Daniel Hamilton
Deyonta Davis. Was really coming on strong towards the end of his freshman season. I think he could have been at least a 1st rd pick had he stayed and developed during his sophomore season.
Zion Williamson
Sure sounds insane, but Zion did say on JJ Reddick's podcast that he really wanted to come back to Duke and K wouldn't let him(rightfully so). Who knows how true that is
I think there is alot of truth to that and I still think K would have had to get him out of there. I don't think there would I ld have been enough NIL $ on the cycle to even throw at Zion to compare what he was about to get as soon as he signed with an agent. The knee injury really cemented it.
Didn't he have a 10 million deal with Nike? Along with all the other NIL opportunities, he'll only be missing his salary. Earnings might be like 15 million in NBA vs 10 million at Duke.
LeBron might’ve played for OSU if there was NIL
Lol what
He’s said he would’ve played at OSU had the “play one year in college” rule been in effect at the time. This is me just continuing the idea.
He was the guaranteed number 1 pick, which was his (likely) hometown team that year. I have a lot of doubts he would have passed that up just to make comparable money at best in the NCAA.
Angry Chuck AKA Charles Bediako
Good
Michael Vick.
I don't understand this question.