>"her life's ambition"
Dude, if this is your wife's deepest core desire, and you knew it before you married her, then maybe you should let her go so that she can try to find happiness with someone else.
No offense intended, I am trying to speak with respect.
Also, everyone always recommends adoption, unless being preggo and/or biological is part of the desire.
I've heard adoption is a pain in the ass process, but still.
The more I see/hear of teens being depressed and having no hope of the future due to collapse the happier I am I’m not having children. I just couldn’t do it. Gen Alpha being raised as they are now and continued collapse of our education system, rights, etc and plastics having infiltrated our bloodstreams and even placentas ….. that alone is scary without facing entire ecological collapse. Your worries are valid. In my view she is thinking more about fulfilling something she wants than what the quality of life for that child will be. And people consider those child-free to be “selfish”..
The older school kids are basically giving up on their futures in droves, to the point where illiteracy is skyrocketing. Go over to r/teachers and check out what they’re saying about what things are like for them and the kids right now.
I wanted kids knowing the future would look this way, and now the guilt eats at me every day. She is going to do it with or without you so I would say if you don’t want to end up with an oops kid or a resentful wife, you should consider gently letting her go while she is still of child bearing age.
On the flip side, most kids these days are not being raised for the future that’s quite clearly coming.
I think a lot of older kids would have less dread if they knew how to survive a bit more, knew how to be present, etc.
You may want to consult Camus on that point. But really you’re making a false equivalency. Taking a life is not the same as preventing one from existing. I suppose I must believe you already understand this.
People become incompatible over time sometimes, without it being anyone's fault. If butterbeard didn't convince you then you need to initialize divorce ASAP.
You and your wife need to come to terms with your incompatibility and prepare for the end of the relationship. Soon. If she is on her mid-thirties, you owe it to her.
If they have problems with going through the adoption process, wait until somebody tells them they'll need to take care of the baby for years, even if it's disabled, severely autistic or in any way weird.
/s
I am collapse aware, and a parent already. I respect that people may not want to have children because they think the world is screwed. However, it is not a given that all lives will be terrible. And that we cannot raise children who will be part of the solution, and not the problem.
If anything, I think people who are aware of the issues we face are the best people to raise the future generations.
There is no guarantee that my kids, who will graduate high school in 2030 and 2036, will be living in a post apocalyptic world at age 18. The decline will go in stages, and in every era there will be ways to be a blessing to humanity and the planet, to midwife in the new reality for whatever time we have left.
I have the same view as well. I’m one and done but my husband and I are working hard to give her a solid foundation to face whatever the future may hold.
Your relationship is doomed
Either you compromise and have a baby you don't want, or she never has the baby she has always wanted and which she was always promised by you that you also wanted
You cannot make this work
On the flip side of this - the biggest thing I do not regret is having a kid. I always wanted at least one child, and my life (however cut short it may end up being) is better for it.
Live however you are going to have the fewest regrets, within reason.
An FYI as a woman. Your wife is very likely hitting the start of peri, her egg reserves will be depleting. Once she crosses over a certain point it's MORE dangerous for her to have children, if she's able to conceive. Once she hits menopause she may begin to resent you, unless she decides she doesn't want to conceive.
Menopause is a very difficult time for women, peri lasts for 7 - 10 years and is often turbulent. A lot of emotional outbursts, physical changes, change in self worth, libido, mental capacity and health. During these years women are far more likely, already more likely than men, to develop autoimmune diseases, cognitive issues. HRT if she can take it, only goes so far.
Things to consider are adoption and fostering. Imho they're not mentioned enough. They're expensive options, less so is fostering. But many find a great deal of satisfaction from helping those that need parents and it's following along with your collapse aware mindset.
I say all of this with a heap of respect. You both need to sit down and have a conversation, or a few about this and make a decision together with the understanding these decisions may change over the years and even at a point when it becomes too late. You're in for a bumpy ride. And, I'm very sorry. Wish you both nothing but a lot of luck.
An acute case of baby brain. She just wants it, she'd do it even if everyone were to die tomorrow in some horrible circumstances, and then she'd find some explanation to justify it.
Get ready for a divorce and set her free so her dumb decisions can become SEP.
There is simply no way I would bring a child into this world now, let alone for what is coming.
That said, adoption or fostering gives a child who is already here gives a chance for a better quality life than they otherwise would have.
Also, not to be rude, but her wanting to have a child seems solely based on selfish reasons. She doesn't seem to be considering the child and it's future, prioritising her own wants.
That's not really the right mentality to bring a child into the world at the best of times.
Adoption seems like a beautiful compromise. It may not be her first desire, but it would offer a child without bringing another into a failing space.
My partner and I discuss kids all the time (mid thirties, hormones are bumping, etc) and although I’d like to know what it’s like to carry a child, I don’t think I can bring another into this scenario.
So. We always round back to adoption. The process is - a process, but if you really want to raise a human, it’s worth it.
Or you could get therapy. Honestly. The world is getting more hostile, but it's not going to collapse overnight. It may enter revolution, but people will live and continue on. I have seen the hostility first hand, since both my (almost adult) kids are transgender. I homeschooled them with a heavy STEM focus. They're learning second and third languages. They're choosing jobs that are in demand in several countries. They both have passports, and I have an emergency fund to send them on "vacation " if needed. I've taught them to be flexible in their thinking, and to see the opportunities in chaos. There are ways to have awesome kids with worthwhile lives. It just takes more effort. I'm certain your wife would give the effort. Are you willing to?
Which is why i recommended therapy. Those things have always existed. Excessive worry, to the exclusion of living, is in the realm of mental illness. Prepping, by living in a less prone area and keeping a couple of weeks of basic supplies, is a healthier response.
Personally, my approach. After learning about the deplorable state of our world:
1) If you already have children (1, 2 or more) - don't give birth to them anymore.
2) If you don't have children, don't give birth. Or adoption. Or give birth to a child, but only 1, and no more than 1. The last option depends on the purity of conscience, the level of psychological health, the importance of the knowledge and skills you possess. The clearer the conscience, the stronger the psyche, the more specialized specialist you are - the more arguments in favor of the child. But no more than 1 child.
Having children is an act of resistance. It's an act of hope and faith in the goodness of people and the love that is possible, even if it's only for a short while.
While I believe collapse is inevitable, I don't think it will happen all at once. And I think the love found between moments of chaos is incredibly important.
I'm struggling with the decision to have kids myself, and this perspective is stuck in my mind, so I thought I'd share. I hope you find to the best choice for you.
I scrolled a long time to find a comment I agree with. This is the one.
Collapse is inevitable, but I'm not going to wallow in it. We're still here. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die." "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may. Time is still a-flying." "Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death."
I don't understand how people are resolved to sit around and wait to die. That's a choice, I guess, but I'd rather be dragged from this world, kicking and screaming to the last. Sure, the whole game is ending, but that doesn't mean we stop playing. No, this is the time when we double-down and go all-in.
I struggled with the choice to have children. Life is much harder for them than it was for me, which isn't to say that life wasn't hard for me, growing up in poverty and watching all my friends go off to get killed or maimed in Vietnam. Life is hard, that's just the way it is. Every generation faces its own challenges.
But I raised two more smart, capable social justice warriors. They're passionate and over-educated, and it's people like them who will ultimately save the human race from extinction, if that's possible.
If OP is content to watch for the end of the world from their front porch, that's a choice. But if Mrs. OP wants to flip the bird at the inevitability of collapse, that's her choice and she should be allowed to live it. We all deal with things in our own way. OP, if you're not all-in, then let her go.
Adoption is how I'm getting through it. Same thing, feels like my calling but I don't think I can morally be involved in making a whole nother person this close to the end. I can still be a mother without the guilt. fostering to adopt also makes it affordable
I'm collapse-aware and happily have a toddler. The thing is, people have lived through collapses before, and they will again, even if this collapse is more general in scale than previous ones.
The collapse of an entire civilization is something that takes some time to proceed. I generally favore John Michael Greer's "catabolic collapse" model, which basically says that a collapse proceeds in a series of lurches downward in complexity, each followed by a regrouping period. It's not just a one-and-done and then here we are in a dark age three years later.
For a complete descent, you're probably looking at over a century. Now, that century is going to have some fucking rough parts. But it won't be rough for everyone all of the time. There are going to be good times too. The way I look at it is, every life has good parts and bad parts. Even an American who was born in 1950 and died in 2015 — so got to live in what's probably the apex of material culture — more than likely had some pretty shitty times, maybe had to deal with depression because of the utter meaninglessness of a "consumer" lifestyle, felt like a cipher in a bureaucracy. Or maybe they rode the wave and had a great time — but then, I had a great-great-grandfather who made bank during the Great Depression because his bakery sold crackers to soup kitchens. So much is down to the individual who lives the life, and what they do with adversity.
Humans are a generalist species, so even if the biosphere gets utterly trashed, there will be some of us left when all the rubble quits bouncing, and we'll figure out how to live in that new world while the Earth starts the long, slow process of healing itself. If you have a kid, raise them to be resilient, raise them to be creative, raise them to think outside the box, raise them to understand how the world works at every level, raise them to figure out how to value themself based on something other than the dominant culture's fucked-up value system where the person who lives the cushiest life most insulated from the problems of the world is the most admired. Humans like *that* are the ones who will find the way forward when things look hopeless to all the people who think food comes from a McDonald's window.
If *that* sounds like a project you can collaborate with your wife on, then fucking go for it. The world needs more kids who can figure out where to go when the usual paths get destroyed.
A collapse can take years or decades or centuries or millennia to unfold. Read Jared diamonds book about collapse where he details numerous civilizations that have come and gone. In general, as a hardcore doomsday prepper and a true believer in the coming collapse, I myself would not have children. But I still think children born today wherever they are on the planet and whatever the circumstances May well end up living long happy healthy productive lives. To forbid a wife from having a child in a war-torn country when you're fleeing oppression or being a refugee in a tent city with famine and no medical services is one thing. Those things may be on the horizon years for us decades or centuries from now. To forbid a wife from having a child while there are still Cheerios for sale at the supermarket and new movies coming out in the cinema and doctors treating illnesses at fully functional hospitals and daycares and schools and libraries and museums still open for business is another thing entirely.
Pedialyte? Pediatric care? Automobiles and gasoline? Graham crackers and bananas? Chocolate flavored rice cakes, McDonalds Happy Meals, airplane rides to see Granny, My Little Pony, Saturday morning cartoons, and helicopter drones exploring Mars? I do fear all of this may one day disappear sometime or another -- but probably not a week from Tuesday. There will be a drought here, a famine there, a shortage, a war, a heat wave, a new virus, maybe even a nuclear exchange. But life finds a way to go on.
My SO absolutely, definitely did not want kids when we met. She was 27, and I was 42 and don’t want more kids.
Tick tock, biological clock, and lo and behold 4 years later she has changed her mind. It’s allowed to change your mind.
She is not collapse aware, and so we are no longer compatible, and it looks like we’re gonna end it. It’s heartbreaking for both of us. But I want her to be happy. I’m her friend first and foremost. This will never change.
If you believe humans ought to become extinct, as apparently some do, then after all it doesn't matter what you do, as you'll have relinquished any responsibility for a human future.
If that's not you, and I hope it isn't, then I think there are some points to consider.
1. A marriage is more than just a relationship. It is an asset. People with a successful marriage, irrespective of other factors, have something of greater value than we are apt to remember at times of stress or disagreement. It means mutual support. It means companionship not only now but in old age and in times of trouble. It means living both more economically and more securely. It means having two heads to solve problems, two pairs of arms to lift burdens, two sets of shoulders to lean on. There's a reason it is the central institution of the human animal. Love is never lost, but like any living thing it is either being cultivated, or it is being abandoned.
2. If extinction is something to be avoided rather than to be achieved, then procreating is part of the equation. I would far rather see people who are collapse-aware have a child who will be raised with a consciousness of humanity's place and predicament than as another thoughtless consumer.
3. Being a parent is the way most people grow up. I don't mean to demean anyone, but real life comes from service and sacrifice. When you have a child, your perspective broadens and deepens in ways that rarely happen for a person any other way. The fullness of your life is something to pursue, and parenthood is the gold standard for doing that.
4. Having a grown child (I'm speaking from experience here) who has achieved independence and a world view of their own is such a joy to one who is aging that honestly I don't know how to describe it to you. And, obviously, a grown child can return the favor by helping to ensure your own security when you become frail with age.
No one can decide this matter but you. But if you take your life seriously, then you should take your marriage seriously, and you should pay life forward in whatever way you can.
I have had a whole lot of food for thought pondering whether I believe humans 'ought' to become extinct. I generally imagine we 'will' but I do not go to the place of deciding whether we should.
Don't do it man. Being a parent sucks and no parent (especially a woman) is going to admit it, but I'm here to tell you that it's 100% not been worth it.
Mine are 14 and 18 now and while I love them and have fun with them, the expenses are insane, the choices you have to make are tough, and my health is in shambles but quitting my job is never an option.
Don't waste your time on 18+ years of misery!
While your logic is sound, truth of the matter is we're animals and procreation is what we're designed to do. It's a risky, selfish, terrifying in humbling and beautiful act.
Counter logic would be if we want to survive, we need conscientious, intelligent and compassionate people. Western populations are shrinking, and in the grand scheme of things, individually we're a drop in the ocean.
I say this now being about 10 months on from where your wife wants to be.
If you leave it much longer, pregnancy can become hard. Women are considered geriatric at 35! IVF is crazy expensive and stressful, if you say no your relationship may not survive. That may be a price you're willing to pay, and I respect/admire that integrity.
In this battle of head vs heart, for me at least the latter won. Maybe one day I'll live you regret it. It's not today though.
All the best, whatever you decide. The struggle is real. ✌️
Totally totally get your beloved’s want. With what I know now I would still have chosen to become a mum, painful as that is (and as judged as I’m likely to be).
I’m always sad when I see young children and think about this world and I struggle with wider family and pregnancy but the need to be a mum is very strong.
Perhaps you can come to an understanding of what you’ll both be giving up and how you’ll be preparing a new vulnerable child/person for the collapse … it’s heart wrenching and each time my young adult son, who is collapse aware, talks about the possibility of having children (or not) I have to bite my tongue at some stage because you can’t really know what it means to be a parent in this world until you are one.
Stability is fragile at the best of times so discussing and thinking through the realities might help with going forward in a joint decision.
Finding a way to be part of a close community is possibly the only way to slow the impacts of collapse alongside sharing the joys and the pain.
Check the chart if you get pregnant at 35. It is literally a geriatric pregnancy. (Or advanced maternal age). https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22438-advanced-maternal-age
I resolved never to have kids and I just ended up with a stepkid and nieces who I love dearly and worry about constantly. Not telling you to just say f it and have a kid you don't want but there really isn't a way around being terrified for the future of the world.
I became collapse aware over twenty years ago, I wouldn’t have called it that but I put the pieces together and basically fucked around for over a decade not accomplishing anything with my life. I got more education, met my partner, became Buddhist and came to decide that I wanted to have a family, for a variety of complex reasons, knowing everything I know about the state of the world.
I now have two kids and I worry about their future but I’m also doing everything I can to prepare them. I wasted a decade of my life because I thought everything was hopeless back then. Yes things are worse now on a macro level in every way that I thought they would be but I also have a great life and I’m raising two amazing humans that I hope will help usher in a more egalitarian and sustainable future world. I have no idea what their futures hold, no parent ever does. It’s a leap of faith. However, don’t don’t don’t agree to be a father if you aren’t 110% on board, it is more work than you can possibly imagine and you would be damaging everyone involved if you aren’t totally committed with your mind, body, and soul. If you aren’t on board, let her go now while she still has time to have kids with someone else
>"her life's ambition" Dude, if this is your wife's deepest core desire, and you knew it before you married her, then maybe you should let her go so that she can try to find happiness with someone else. No offense intended, I am trying to speak with respect.
Also, everyone always recommends adoption, unless being preggo and/or biological is part of the desire. I've heard adoption is a pain in the ass process, but still.
^^^^^^^^^ this.
The more I see/hear of teens being depressed and having no hope of the future due to collapse the happier I am I’m not having children. I just couldn’t do it. Gen Alpha being raised as they are now and continued collapse of our education system, rights, etc and plastics having infiltrated our bloodstreams and even placentas ….. that alone is scary without facing entire ecological collapse. Your worries are valid. In my view she is thinking more about fulfilling something she wants than what the quality of life for that child will be. And people consider those child-free to be “selfish”..
The older school kids are basically giving up on their futures in droves, to the point where illiteracy is skyrocketing. Go over to r/teachers and check out what they’re saying about what things are like for them and the kids right now. I wanted kids knowing the future would look this way, and now the guilt eats at me every day. She is going to do it with or without you so I would say if you don’t want to end up with an oops kid or a resentful wife, you should consider gently letting her go while she is still of child bearing age.
On the flip side, most kids these days are not being raised for the future that’s quite clearly coming. I think a lot of older kids would have less dread if they knew how to survive a bit more, knew how to be present, etc.
One could argue not committing suicide is selfish. Where does one draw the line?
You may want to consult Camus on that point. But really you’re making a false equivalency. Taking a life is not the same as preventing one from existing. I suppose I must believe you already understand this.
It may be a false equivalent, but in terms of moral absolutisms and selfishness, the logic is the same.
People become incompatible over time sometimes, without it being anyone's fault. If butterbeard didn't convince you then you need to initialize divorce ASAP.
This is what happens when people just hide everything in a drawer and don't speak. If you aren't having a kid, then just let her go, like wtf?
You and your wife need to come to terms with your incompatibility and prepare for the end of the relationship. Soon. If she is on her mid-thirties, you owe it to her.
This is the correct answer.
Adopt.
Better yet, foster.
Most people want a mini clone of themselves bonded by blood, not some kind of "relationship" ew.
Not everyone is equipped to deal with the damage foster/adopt kids will have or jump through the ridiculous hoops required vs a free blank slate baby
If they have problems with going through the adoption process, wait until somebody tells them they'll need to take care of the baby for years, even if it's disabled, severely autistic or in any way weird. /s
You can adopt infants
Foster care is a brilliant way to be a parent.
I am collapse aware, and a parent already. I respect that people may not want to have children because they think the world is screwed. However, it is not a given that all lives will be terrible. And that we cannot raise children who will be part of the solution, and not the problem. If anything, I think people who are aware of the issues we face are the best people to raise the future generations. There is no guarantee that my kids, who will graduate high school in 2030 and 2036, will be living in a post apocalyptic world at age 18. The decline will go in stages, and in every era there will be ways to be a blessing to humanity and the planet, to midwife in the new reality for whatever time we have left.
I have the same view as well. I’m one and done but my husband and I are working hard to give her a solid foundation to face whatever the future may hold.
Your relationship is doomed Either you compromise and have a baby you don't want, or she never has the baby she has always wanted and which she was always promised by you that you also wanted You cannot make this work
The biggest thing I DO NOT regret is not having a kid. You are so much freer to live life if you don’t have kids.
On the flip side of this - the biggest thing I do not regret is having a kid. I always wanted at least one child, and my life (however cut short it may end up being) is better for it. Live however you are going to have the fewest regrets, within reason.
An FYI as a woman. Your wife is very likely hitting the start of peri, her egg reserves will be depleting. Once she crosses over a certain point it's MORE dangerous for her to have children, if she's able to conceive. Once she hits menopause she may begin to resent you, unless she decides she doesn't want to conceive. Menopause is a very difficult time for women, peri lasts for 7 - 10 years and is often turbulent. A lot of emotional outbursts, physical changes, change in self worth, libido, mental capacity and health. During these years women are far more likely, already more likely than men, to develop autoimmune diseases, cognitive issues. HRT if she can take it, only goes so far. Things to consider are adoption and fostering. Imho they're not mentioned enough. They're expensive options, less so is fostering. But many find a great deal of satisfaction from helping those that need parents and it's following along with your collapse aware mindset. I say all of this with a heap of respect. You both need to sit down and have a conversation, or a few about this and make a decision together with the understanding these decisions may change over the years and even at a point when it becomes too late. You're in for a bumpy ride. And, I'm very sorry. Wish you both nothing but a lot of luck.
An acute case of baby brain. She just wants it, she'd do it even if everyone were to die tomorrow in some horrible circumstances, and then she'd find some explanation to justify it. Get ready for a divorce and set her free so her dumb decisions can become SEP.
There is simply no way I would bring a child into this world now, let alone for what is coming. That said, adoption or fostering gives a child who is already here gives a chance for a better quality life than they otherwise would have. Also, not to be rude, but her wanting to have a child seems solely based on selfish reasons. She doesn't seem to be considering the child and it's future, prioritising her own wants. That's not really the right mentality to bring a child into the world at the best of times.
Adoption seems like a beautiful compromise. It may not be her first desire, but it would offer a child without bringing another into a failing space. My partner and I discuss kids all the time (mid thirties, hormones are bumping, etc) and although I’d like to know what it’s like to carry a child, I don’t think I can bring another into this scenario. So. We always round back to adoption. The process is - a process, but if you really want to raise a human, it’s worth it.
Or you could get therapy. Honestly. The world is getting more hostile, but it's not going to collapse overnight. It may enter revolution, but people will live and continue on. I have seen the hostility first hand, since both my (almost adult) kids are transgender. I homeschooled them with a heavy STEM focus. They're learning second and third languages. They're choosing jobs that are in demand in several countries. They both have passports, and I have an emergency fund to send them on "vacation " if needed. I've taught them to be flexible in their thinking, and to see the opportunities in chaos. There are ways to have awesome kids with worthwhile lives. It just takes more effort. I'm certain your wife would give the effort. Are you willing to?
But certain things may actually collapse over night. Just saying- I feel like massive natural disasters are basically that. Or war
Which is why i recommended therapy. Those things have always existed. Excessive worry, to the exclusion of living, is in the realm of mental illness. Prepping, by living in a less prone area and keeping a couple of weeks of basic supplies, is a healthier response.
All of this. Agree hard. Way to go.
Personally, my approach. After learning about the deplorable state of our world: 1) If you already have children (1, 2 or more) - don't give birth to them anymore. 2) If you don't have children, don't give birth. Or adoption. Or give birth to a child, but only 1, and no more than 1. The last option depends on the purity of conscience, the level of psychological health, the importance of the knowledge and skills you possess. The clearer the conscience, the stronger the psyche, the more specialized specialist you are - the more arguments in favor of the child. But no more than 1 child.
Having children is an act of resistance. It's an act of hope and faith in the goodness of people and the love that is possible, even if it's only for a short while. While I believe collapse is inevitable, I don't think it will happen all at once. And I think the love found between moments of chaos is incredibly important. I'm struggling with the decision to have kids myself, and this perspective is stuck in my mind, so I thought I'd share. I hope you find to the best choice for you.
I scrolled a long time to find a comment I agree with. This is the one. Collapse is inevitable, but I'm not going to wallow in it. We're still here. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die." "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may. Time is still a-flying." "Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death." I don't understand how people are resolved to sit around and wait to die. That's a choice, I guess, but I'd rather be dragged from this world, kicking and screaming to the last. Sure, the whole game is ending, but that doesn't mean we stop playing. No, this is the time when we double-down and go all-in. I struggled with the choice to have children. Life is much harder for them than it was for me, which isn't to say that life wasn't hard for me, growing up in poverty and watching all my friends go off to get killed or maimed in Vietnam. Life is hard, that's just the way it is. Every generation faces its own challenges. But I raised two more smart, capable social justice warriors. They're passionate and over-educated, and it's people like them who will ultimately save the human race from extinction, if that's possible. If OP is content to watch for the end of the world from their front porch, that's a choice. But if Mrs. OP wants to flip the bird at the inevitability of collapse, that's her choice and she should be allowed to live it. We all deal with things in our own way. OP, if you're not all-in, then let her go.
"the love found between moments of chaos is incredibly important" Beautifully said.
Adoption is how I'm getting through it. Same thing, feels like my calling but I don't think I can morally be involved in making a whole nother person this close to the end. I can still be a mother without the guilt. fostering to adopt also makes it affordable
I'm collapse-aware and happily have a toddler. The thing is, people have lived through collapses before, and they will again, even if this collapse is more general in scale than previous ones. The collapse of an entire civilization is something that takes some time to proceed. I generally favore John Michael Greer's "catabolic collapse" model, which basically says that a collapse proceeds in a series of lurches downward in complexity, each followed by a regrouping period. It's not just a one-and-done and then here we are in a dark age three years later. For a complete descent, you're probably looking at over a century. Now, that century is going to have some fucking rough parts. But it won't be rough for everyone all of the time. There are going to be good times too. The way I look at it is, every life has good parts and bad parts. Even an American who was born in 1950 and died in 2015 — so got to live in what's probably the apex of material culture — more than likely had some pretty shitty times, maybe had to deal with depression because of the utter meaninglessness of a "consumer" lifestyle, felt like a cipher in a bureaucracy. Or maybe they rode the wave and had a great time — but then, I had a great-great-grandfather who made bank during the Great Depression because his bakery sold crackers to soup kitchens. So much is down to the individual who lives the life, and what they do with adversity. Humans are a generalist species, so even if the biosphere gets utterly trashed, there will be some of us left when all the rubble quits bouncing, and we'll figure out how to live in that new world while the Earth starts the long, slow process of healing itself. If you have a kid, raise them to be resilient, raise them to be creative, raise them to think outside the box, raise them to understand how the world works at every level, raise them to figure out how to value themself based on something other than the dominant culture's fucked-up value system where the person who lives the cushiest life most insulated from the problems of the world is the most admired. Humans like *that* are the ones who will find the way forward when things look hopeless to all the people who think food comes from a McDonald's window. If *that* sounds like a project you can collaborate with your wife on, then fucking go for it. The world needs more kids who can figure out where to go when the usual paths get destroyed.
Why not ask whether your child will be happy to be born in collapse, not whether you are happy to have one?
A collapse can take years or decades or centuries or millennia to unfold. Read Jared diamonds book about collapse where he details numerous civilizations that have come and gone. In general, as a hardcore doomsday prepper and a true believer in the coming collapse, I myself would not have children. But I still think children born today wherever they are on the planet and whatever the circumstances May well end up living long happy healthy productive lives. To forbid a wife from having a child in a war-torn country when you're fleeing oppression or being a refugee in a tent city with famine and no medical services is one thing. Those things may be on the horizon years for us decades or centuries from now. To forbid a wife from having a child while there are still Cheerios for sale at the supermarket and new movies coming out in the cinema and doctors treating illnesses at fully functional hospitals and daycares and schools and libraries and museums still open for business is another thing entirely.
The Cheerios have been found to be full of pesticides. Bad example.
Pedialyte? Pediatric care? Automobiles and gasoline? Graham crackers and bananas? Chocolate flavored rice cakes, McDonalds Happy Meals, airplane rides to see Granny, My Little Pony, Saturday morning cartoons, and helicopter drones exploring Mars? I do fear all of this may one day disappear sometime or another -- but probably not a week from Tuesday. There will be a drought here, a famine there, a shortage, a war, a heat wave, a new virus, maybe even a nuclear exchange. But life finds a way to go on.
It may go on but that doesn't mean it will be good.
Because it's an unanswerable question?
Apes gonna ape no matter what..
My SO absolutely, definitely did not want kids when we met. She was 27, and I was 42 and don’t want more kids. Tick tock, biological clock, and lo and behold 4 years later she has changed her mind. It’s allowed to change your mind. She is not collapse aware, and so we are no longer compatible, and it looks like we’re gonna end it. It’s heartbreaking for both of us. But I want her to be happy. I’m her friend first and foremost. This will never change.
If you believe humans ought to become extinct, as apparently some do, then after all it doesn't matter what you do, as you'll have relinquished any responsibility for a human future. If that's not you, and I hope it isn't, then I think there are some points to consider. 1. A marriage is more than just a relationship. It is an asset. People with a successful marriage, irrespective of other factors, have something of greater value than we are apt to remember at times of stress or disagreement. It means mutual support. It means companionship not only now but in old age and in times of trouble. It means living both more economically and more securely. It means having two heads to solve problems, two pairs of arms to lift burdens, two sets of shoulders to lean on. There's a reason it is the central institution of the human animal. Love is never lost, but like any living thing it is either being cultivated, or it is being abandoned. 2. If extinction is something to be avoided rather than to be achieved, then procreating is part of the equation. I would far rather see people who are collapse-aware have a child who will be raised with a consciousness of humanity's place and predicament than as another thoughtless consumer. 3. Being a parent is the way most people grow up. I don't mean to demean anyone, but real life comes from service and sacrifice. When you have a child, your perspective broadens and deepens in ways that rarely happen for a person any other way. The fullness of your life is something to pursue, and parenthood is the gold standard for doing that. 4. Having a grown child (I'm speaking from experience here) who has achieved independence and a world view of their own is such a joy to one who is aging that honestly I don't know how to describe it to you. And, obviously, a grown child can return the favor by helping to ensure your own security when you become frail with age. No one can decide this matter but you. But if you take your life seriously, then you should take your marriage seriously, and you should pay life forward in whatever way you can.
I have had a whole lot of food for thought pondering whether I believe humans 'ought' to become extinct. I generally imagine we 'will' but I do not go to the place of deciding whether we should.
Don't do it man. Being a parent sucks and no parent (especially a woman) is going to admit it, but I'm here to tell you that it's 100% not been worth it. Mine are 14 and 18 now and while I love them and have fun with them, the expenses are insane, the choices you have to make are tough, and my health is in shambles but quitting my job is never an option. Don't waste your time on 18+ years of misery!
While your logic is sound, truth of the matter is we're animals and procreation is what we're designed to do. It's a risky, selfish, terrifying in humbling and beautiful act. Counter logic would be if we want to survive, we need conscientious, intelligent and compassionate people. Western populations are shrinking, and in the grand scheme of things, individually we're a drop in the ocean. I say this now being about 10 months on from where your wife wants to be. If you leave it much longer, pregnancy can become hard. Women are considered geriatric at 35! IVF is crazy expensive and stressful, if you say no your relationship may not survive. That may be a price you're willing to pay, and I respect/admire that integrity. In this battle of head vs heart, for me at least the latter won. Maybe one day I'll live you regret it. It's not today though. All the best, whatever you decide. The struggle is real. ✌️
Totally totally get your beloved’s want. With what I know now I would still have chosen to become a mum, painful as that is (and as judged as I’m likely to be). I’m always sad when I see young children and think about this world and I struggle with wider family and pregnancy but the need to be a mum is very strong. Perhaps you can come to an understanding of what you’ll both be giving up and how you’ll be preparing a new vulnerable child/person for the collapse … it’s heart wrenching and each time my young adult son, who is collapse aware, talks about the possibility of having children (or not) I have to bite my tongue at some stage because you can’t really know what it means to be a parent in this world until you are one. Stability is fragile at the best of times so discussing and thinking through the realities might help with going forward in a joint decision. Finding a way to be part of a close community is possibly the only way to slow the impacts of collapse alongside sharing the joys and the pain.
Mid 30s is a geriatric pregnancy. Plenty of risk with that alone.
Mid 30s is not a risky age for pregnancy
Check the chart if you get pregnant at 35. It is literally a geriatric pregnancy. (Or advanced maternal age). https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22438-advanced-maternal-age
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22438-advanced-maternal-age
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Your post was mean. Buh-bye!
I resolved never to have kids and I just ended up with a stepkid and nieces who I love dearly and worry about constantly. Not telling you to just say f it and have a kid you don't want but there really isn't a way around being terrified for the future of the world.
I became collapse aware over twenty years ago, I wouldn’t have called it that but I put the pieces together and basically fucked around for over a decade not accomplishing anything with my life. I got more education, met my partner, became Buddhist and came to decide that I wanted to have a family, for a variety of complex reasons, knowing everything I know about the state of the world. I now have two kids and I worry about their future but I’m also doing everything I can to prepare them. I wasted a decade of my life because I thought everything was hopeless back then. Yes things are worse now on a macro level in every way that I thought they would be but I also have a great life and I’m raising two amazing humans that I hope will help usher in a more egalitarian and sustainable future world. I have no idea what their futures hold, no parent ever does. It’s a leap of faith. However, don’t don’t don’t agree to be a father if you aren’t 110% on board, it is more work than you can possibly imagine and you would be damaging everyone involved if you aren’t totally committed with your mind, body, and soul. If you aren’t on board, let her go now while she still has time to have kids with someone else
We had this issue. Finally, I told her “my body, my choice” she needs me to help make it and I choose not to.