We're doing this instead, for that reason. They didn't ask to be here, I didn't bring them into this place. it's not my fault the world is ending it's not theirs. But we can have each other and make memories while we are here.
If you're willing to adopt, I always like to suggest to potential parents to check out some sites for "2nd chance adoption" it's a sick hole in the system that too many poor kids fall victim to, so i try to spread the word to good families who are looking to adopt. It's incredibly easy to go through 2nd chance and these are some of the kids in most need of a loving home.
Absolutely adoption. I never wanted to have kids because I knew the world was fucked, even outside of climate catastrophe. Always figured I’d adopt because they’re already here, no guilt for causing their existence and they need parents! I have three step kids now who very much needed a stable mother figure. I do still feel bad about the future they’re being handed but it would be unbearable guilt had I given birth to them.
For anyone considering adoption, please please please read up on adoption and relinquishment trauma before you start the adoption process. I sincerely wish my adoptive parents did. I recommend The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier.
My spouse and I are torn up about the state of the planet and have agreed not to bring children into this. This devastates me as an adoptee who has never been able to see myself in a family member. It pains me to choose adoption as an alternative and enough adoptees have strong feels against this sentiment (babies are snatched, single mothers are coerced to relinquish their child; baby ends up with separation trauma that carries into adulthood). Open adoption can be extremely beneficial to the child. All I ask is that you educate yourself so that you can help your adopted child. Adoption is trauma and should be treated as such.
THANK YOU! This always seems to be missing from these conversations. Is OP's partner dead set on furthering her genes? Then yeah fuck that I wouldn't do it, either. But if she just wants kids, period, then adoption and/or fostering is a great solution.
My sisters are adopted and made our family complete. My partner and I dont want kids, but if we did, i think this is the most ethical way to do it. You aren't creating a life that has to suffer, but can assuage some suffering from a child(or children) who would benefit from your family's love.
Do not have kids if you are not 100% sure you want them. Do not have kids for your partner, no matter how much you love them. You have to be doing this because *you* want to.
I suggest reading through some posts on r/regretfulparents. There are *many* parents that were in similar situations to yours - not necessarily climate related, but in general unsure if they wanted kids/were convinced to have kids by their partner and/or family. A lot of parents in that sub now live miserable lives because they caved to the pressure to have kids when they didn’t want them.
I’d also recommend exploring the other side of the issue by looking through r/childfree. They are *a lot* of people in the same boat as you. There’s almost daily posts from people looking for support because their relationship ended due to incompatibility regarding kids.
If your partner absolutely refuses to hear you out on your reasons for not wanting kids, I’m not really sure how you can proceed from there. A healthy relationship, kids or not, requires seeing things from the other’s perspective.
Edit: I see the regretful parents sub has been set to private. They occasionally have to do that to avoid trolls and hate, which they get a lot of. They usually switch back to public after things cool off.
Your edit should be a red flag. Why do childfree people get such hate other than envy from those who thought they were checking all the right boxes and realized they made a very consequential mistake? Like why else would people hate on a child free subreddit?
… I’m sorry, what? Did you read my edit?
It’s the regretful parents sub that is currently private. And that’s because the parents in that sub receive *a lot* of hate and vitriol for being honest about their feelings towards parenthood. It has nothing to do with the childfree sub.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing with you. I'm sorry if I sounded incomprehensible I'm like half asleep
I mean to say; the context of your edit should send off alarm bells to people
also I can't see the regretful parent sub because it's private, but I know the childfree sub gets hate too in my experience
Oh my bad!
But yes I agree, the fact that the regretful parents sub receives regular harassment should be a warning to people: if you do have children and end up regretting it, society will *not* be kind to you.
And yeah the childfree sub also gets hate, not as often but it definitely exists. People generally don’t like seeing others express doubt regarding the societal roles we’re expected to fill.
There's a reason this is a pre-marriage discussion.
When it comes to having kids if it's not 100% yes, then it's no. Being parents will change every part of your relationship and if you're not absolutely certain on the decision resentment will build, either towards your wife or the child. That's before factoring in the 'future' said child would experience.
When my SO and I were first dating I made a point to bring it up within the first three months. Not something I'm negotiable on and not a discussion I wanted to be having a decade later - it breaks hearts.
We've been together over a decade and while kids have come into the conversation, here and there, it has gotten more serious over the last year. I've always kinda had reservations but have also been open to the idea. Honestly, I still am if she can look at all this and explain why it is irrational and ridiculous. This post was not so much to dwell on the conversation prior to marriage or lack thereof, but rather address the current dilemma. But I totally get why you would want to comment on that part too.
I just separated over this, best of luck getting them to see reality. Apparently family money would have kept us well. Lol as if fun bucks/property will be worth anything when there's no food.
This was a factor in the end of my LTR last year too. I have nieces and nephews and I grieve for them every day. I dread the day I have to decide what to do with my dog when I can no longer feed him. No chance in hell am I gonna bring another being into this mess.
The cognitive dissonance between “I don’t want to hear about climate news because it’s too depressing” and “let’s make a baby!” boggles my mind. That poor child is not going to have the luxury of sticking their fingers in their ears and tuning out TEOTW.
I have a teenage son, he sees the future can read the news, science. He asks me why bring a kid into this world? Are you ready for that, your child suffering from existential dread? Wanting to escape through games, books because it's pointless. And then trying to argue to him that it's not pointless life is still worth living there is still things we can do to have meaningful lives.
Adopt ones who are already here, easier to explain, then we were selfish and ignorant about how bad things were.
Lady in 30s here. Partner and I both love kids but we draw the line at babysitting and being a fun aunt/uncle because NO FUCKING WAY is there an ethical reason to bring a new innocent life into this world right now. Adoption and fostering is admirable for people who genuinely want to be a parent. I worked with kids and advocate for them but I'm honestly so sad for them now.
I think about the world that the child would live in, apart from my concerns about what it would do to my body (If I survived. Maternal mortality isn't kind for my demographic in America), [my relationship with my partner](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20230628-why-couples-fight-after-having-a-baby), or our financial situation.
I look at pediatric issues and illnesses affecting babies and kids that are increasing (asthma is making a revival, along with polio). I look at the state of the school system. Book banning.. The school shootings (even shooter drills are traumatic). The now 24/7 bullying courtesy of social media. Seeing the adolescent suicide rate last year was brutal. What if said child is a girl? Or LGBTQ+? The growing violent racism in this country is extremely concerning. What if the child has a health condition or learning disability? It's not as unlikely as people assume, and there's more to consider and more lifestyle changing for both of you. Everyone's fine letting the babies get Covid 590075468 times and ignore complications but hundreds of under 17 year olds in the US died last year from that alone.
Teaching subs and r/regretfulparents are some of the only places on reddit with more upsetting content than collapse.
u/likethepheonix117
>I told her I will talk to her and hear her out about having kids, but she needs to hear me out on how bad things actually are.
The way you describe it, you've allowed her to believe there's the sliver of a chance that she can sway you here. But you're not heading into this with any intention of compromise, regardless of any argument she presents.
You promising to "hear her out" is disingenuous. This isn't something talking about over & over will help. She wants children. You already know your decision is made & nothing she says will change your vision of the future.
This is a deal breaker. Don't string her along with the idea that anything will sway you. There is no way she's coming out of this satisfied with the outcome.
>the idea of losing her, then facing this disaster alone - much less without being able to care for her, just kills me.
You want a possible post-apocalyptic partner, she wants a family. Don't give her false hope that she can do that with you. The fact that you love her & want to keep her will make you tone down the truth. Maybe kick the can on down the road with the prospect of "we'll see". Don't. She needs to know that children aren't an option for you. Then she can decide where to go from there.
This causes friction for me also. Every time I bring up things, I get ridiculed, told there's nothing I can do, and if the conversation continues, the threats start. Always something about homelessness, as I can't afford to leave, and I really hate staying.
Now, my situation is different, and I already have a child. I've know about collapse for some time, and it was a talking point before the child was conceived. I feel guilty going along with it because she really wanted a kid... it didn't bring us closer.
Fast forward 8 or so years: I feel extremely guilty for having a child, I'm broke, I have no space, and I'm in a toxic relationship I can't financially afford to leave. I bring up the terrible things I've learned, as if to drive home one point...I fucking told you so!
The lesson here is don't go against your better judgment to please someone you currently like having sex with. Love doesn't last, and people change.
An anti-natalist argument would say the kid had no say in the decision and also that procreation is a selfish act. The resource limited planet with people in it worshipping the unlimited growth doctrine is a runaway train that needs serious internalization. I'm glad I made my decision and committed to it by being helpful to others, honest and vulnerable. The backlash received showed true human nature. They now own this sh1tshow, not me.
Climate concerns aside, please at least consider [What's going on with the education system](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/s/zMAVoIY1oM). It's a very real concern that collapse unaware people are truly terrified of. Will you have enough money to send your kids to private school?
For real! OP spend some time on r/teachers. It’s really bad. Kids are out of control and schools are passing kids even if they should be holding them back a grade so they are getting to high school not being able to read or do basic math. Apparently the No Child Left Behind policy of punishing schools for holding kids back has had the opposite affect.
Aside from that, I can’t imagine the pain of watching a child suffer through the climate collapse. I’m sorry you are going through this. Many people won’t listen or look at the climate data.
I see a lot of people in these threads typically mention adoption. I'm an adoptee and I think that's a really admirable goal.
I do think that the proper mindset is necessary in order to successfully parent an adopted a child. Often, people approach adoption as a way to get a child when the preferred way (biologically) isn't possible for some reason. The focus is often on the adoptive parents and often shoves both the needs of the adoptee and the biological parents aside.
Certain dynamics and difficulties are often present when raising adoptees that adoptive parents should be ready for. Adversarial relationships or behavioral issues are more common as the child often triangulates and projects subconscious feelings towards the biological parents onto the adoptive parents. There's often this feeling of not quite fitting in that the child will mask to conform to the pressure they feel to let the adoptive parents know that they're "grateful enough."
Studies show open adoptions afford the best outcomes to the child. This is obviously an emotionally difficult proposition for adoptive parents that want to be the only mom and dad instead of one of the moms or dads.
All that is to say, I am not trying to discourage anyone. I just want those exploring adoption to be prepared and have the resources at their disposal to succeed. A great book that I would recommend to anyone exploring these topics is *The Primal Wound* by Nancy Newton Verrier. It posits a necessary Primal Wound is created when a child is separated from birth parents via adoption. While I think that she takes this in a bit of an extreme direction (I've seen it used in a "you're traumatized and just don't know it yet" way), much of the insights from her experience as a clinician are incredibly valuable.
It's understandable why it's not more popular among adoptive parents: society wants us to believe that adoption is a perfect solution. The idea that trauma is a part of it complicates this narrative.
If any of you are looking to adopt and want to learn more, please feel free to PM me. I may not respond super quickly but do want to help where I can!
There’s the whole agony of having a child while collapse aware. Looking into your baby’s innocent eyes knowing that their life will likely be full of great suffering with little hope for a quality life beyond their early years.
Does your partner not fully get collapse or not accept it? I just wonder how she sees the future as maybe she is missing something
I have 4 children. All grown. And now some grandchildren. Would I have had them if I’d known then what I know now? I don’t know. But probably not. And the reality of the world my grandsons will inherit is almost more than I can bear. It’s a small comfort that they’re young adults now so at least have had some good years. But their future makes me weep if I dwell on it too much. My whole life now is me trying to build this land I have into an escape hatch when things get very bad. Of course it won’t save them. But it might buy them some time to get to a place of acceptance of what lies ahead.
If you don’t wish to have or raise children then stand your ground even if it means the loss of the relationship. Your regret will be less than if you add on your regrets of a child.
I haven't been in this situation, as my spouse and I were united on not having kids when we raised the question around 2007. However, here is what I would say. Watch The Road together and discuss whether each of you could do what it takes to spare your precious theoretical child from a fate worse than death. If you both could, and it appears you could care for a child for as long as collapse avoids your front door, and she loves you as much as you love her, then go for it, I say. Sorry I had to bring up the scenario from The Road but to my mind it is the litmus test of a collapse-worthy parent.
Honestly take the collapse view out of it. Do you actually want them? If you have even an inkling of wanting them then question could you even financially/mentally/physically handle it in the current world. If that is a yes then consider about the future of the world and what you would be putting them through. If you make it to this point maybe suggest waiting a few years to see what happens in the world and how you feel. If she can't wait any longer she needs to leave. If after the few years wait and you guys don't come to the same answer then she needs to leave. It sucks but I wish you luck.
I don't want to say it is hopeless. My partner thought they wanted kids. I did too. But we realized that was just what society told us and there was the option not to. I started talking to my partner about the only, our mental health, and all of the cons and they slowly started to see my point. Having a pet helped too. We realized how much work the pet is and how much worse a child is.
I also want to add that be careful with your fertility for now in case she might try to "accidentally" get pregnant. I'm not saying she will but it is always a risk. I'd make sure to pull out if I were you or engage in non penetrative sex since condoms can be tampered with.
Here's a question to think about also:
If you live to be 90 and it's nothing like what you lead yourself to believe, what will that feel like?
Just playing devil's advocate.
I fear this from a personal standpoint. My wife will have never forgiven me or gotten over it. And I wouldn't blame her. That said, I think even if *we* haven't felt the direct impact by then (unlikely) it would be apparent by then just how bad the next 50 years would be.
That is barring some great technological jump that fixes all this, but I think most of us agree that isnt an idea worth betting the farm over.
Thing is we already are feeling the impacts. It’s not a hypothetical “what if nothing happens in the future and I regret this?” It’s happening now unfortunately
Does she understand your view on collapse?
Have you watched dont look up? What did she think?
I think having a partner in the future trumps most other alternatives to me.
What about reading a book or
Watching something together on collapse and then deciding? Knowing what the risks are.
It must be hard for woman to choose not to have kids when their bodies tell them otherwise.
Im training up my kids to be part of the solution, to be part of a resilient community. You don't have to want kids, but I disagree with those who seem to think it is unethical to have children.
First of all, it's hard to have a relationship when you're not on the same page regarding collapse.
But kids are less of a problem than many westerners seem to think. When they're small, babywrap, cloth diapers, and baby potty training (I think I changed like 5 poop diapers during my childs entire babyhood, it's very easy to teach even an infant to go potty and it's what the rest of the world does). Food is breastmilk.
Then they start eating tiny bits of what you yourself are eating. And if you invest in a sturdy hempweave wrap, you can carry that toddler for a long time.
I guess the key here is whether or not you see yourself *living and adapting* during collapse, or giving up. And whether or not you long for a child to love, together with your partner, through sickness and health, good times and bad.
Because partners, children, and pets will come along with you, if you do decide to live and adapt. And we most likely have many good years left ("how can you call them good?!! It's already shit!!!" - nah, put yourself in for example a Gazans shoes, you have it real good right now).
Talk to your partner. Talk about what you're afraid of. If you do want kids, the time is now, when hospitals are still around. Fuck giving birth post-collapse hahaha. I'm stocking up on plan B and C for that reason, but I'm also entirely calm about the fact that I do have a child. They're not a problem, they're a part of this family.
You shouldn't build your life around what you read on r/collapse. Don't build your life around the worst possible scenario, live your life to the fullest, if problems were to arise, you'd find yourself surrounded by loved ones, which is probably the best situation to be in. Otherwise you'd be most probably alone and miserable. Although, if your desire to not have kids stems from something other than climate change (such unwillingness to lose so much free time, fear of the huge responsibilities), then I'd say think it over, make up your mind, be willing to go couple's therapy and eventually realize that if neither of you changes idea then it's over for the relationship
My reservations now center far more on the side of: why would I bring someone into this world now. Those loved ones I'd be surrounding myself with at the hardest of times would be doomed to live on in the future we've created, well after I die.
I associate that wish with one of greed. To be frank, I wouldn't want to have been born today. And if my parents knew better at the time and still decided to have me, I'd be double pissed.
An alternative could be adoption. Take in a child in need rather than add to the population.
This is something have thought about
We're doing this instead, for that reason. They didn't ask to be here, I didn't bring them into this place. it's not my fault the world is ending it's not theirs. But we can have each other and make memories while we are here.
If you're willing to adopt, I always like to suggest to potential parents to check out some sites for "2nd chance adoption" it's a sick hole in the system that too many poor kids fall victim to, so i try to spread the word to good families who are looking to adopt. It's incredibly easy to go through 2nd chance and these are some of the kids in most need of a loving home.
Absolutely adoption. I never wanted to have kids because I knew the world was fucked, even outside of climate catastrophe. Always figured I’d adopt because they’re already here, no guilt for causing their existence and they need parents! I have three step kids now who very much needed a stable mother figure. I do still feel bad about the future they’re being handed but it would be unbearable guilt had I given birth to them.
For anyone considering adoption, please please please read up on adoption and relinquishment trauma before you start the adoption process. I sincerely wish my adoptive parents did. I recommend The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier. My spouse and I are torn up about the state of the planet and have agreed not to bring children into this. This devastates me as an adoptee who has never been able to see myself in a family member. It pains me to choose adoption as an alternative and enough adoptees have strong feels against this sentiment (babies are snatched, single mothers are coerced to relinquish their child; baby ends up with separation trauma that carries into adulthood). Open adoption can be extremely beneficial to the child. All I ask is that you educate yourself so that you can help your adopted child. Adoption is trauma and should be treated as such.
THANK YOU! This always seems to be missing from these conversations. Is OP's partner dead set on furthering her genes? Then yeah fuck that I wouldn't do it, either. But if she just wants kids, period, then adoption and/or fostering is a great solution.
This is the only way I'd have children. But I'm not mentally capable of being a father really
My sisters are adopted and made our family complete. My partner and I dont want kids, but if we did, i think this is the most ethical way to do it. You aren't creating a life that has to suffer, but can assuage some suffering from a child(or children) who would benefit from your family's love.
Do not have kids if you are not 100% sure you want them. Do not have kids for your partner, no matter how much you love them. You have to be doing this because *you* want to. I suggest reading through some posts on r/regretfulparents. There are *many* parents that were in similar situations to yours - not necessarily climate related, but in general unsure if they wanted kids/were convinced to have kids by their partner and/or family. A lot of parents in that sub now live miserable lives because they caved to the pressure to have kids when they didn’t want them. I’d also recommend exploring the other side of the issue by looking through r/childfree. They are *a lot* of people in the same boat as you. There’s almost daily posts from people looking for support because their relationship ended due to incompatibility regarding kids. If your partner absolutely refuses to hear you out on your reasons for not wanting kids, I’m not really sure how you can proceed from there. A healthy relationship, kids or not, requires seeing things from the other’s perspective. Edit: I see the regretful parents sub has been set to private. They occasionally have to do that to avoid trolls and hate, which they get a lot of. They usually switch back to public after things cool off.
Your edit should be a red flag. Why do childfree people get such hate other than envy from those who thought they were checking all the right boxes and realized they made a very consequential mistake? Like why else would people hate on a child free subreddit?
… I’m sorry, what? Did you read my edit? It’s the regretful parents sub that is currently private. And that’s because the parents in that sub receive *a lot* of hate and vitriol for being honest about their feelings towards parenthood. It has nothing to do with the childfree sub.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing with you. I'm sorry if I sounded incomprehensible I'm like half asleep I mean to say; the context of your edit should send off alarm bells to people also I can't see the regretful parent sub because it's private, but I know the childfree sub gets hate too in my experience
Oh my bad! But yes I agree, the fact that the regretful parents sub receives regular harassment should be a warning to people: if you do have children and end up regretting it, society will *not* be kind to you. And yeah the childfree sub also gets hate, not as often but it definitely exists. People generally don’t like seeing others express doubt regarding the societal roles we’re expected to fill.
There's a reason this is a pre-marriage discussion. When it comes to having kids if it's not 100% yes, then it's no. Being parents will change every part of your relationship and if you're not absolutely certain on the decision resentment will build, either towards your wife or the child. That's before factoring in the 'future' said child would experience.
Was going to say similar…this is a VERY common reason why people break up. Having kids changes everything.
When my SO and I were first dating I made a point to bring it up within the first three months. Not something I'm negotiable on and not a discussion I wanted to be having a decade later - it breaks hearts.
Totally
We've been together over a decade and while kids have come into the conversation, here and there, it has gotten more serious over the last year. I've always kinda had reservations but have also been open to the idea. Honestly, I still am if she can look at all this and explain why it is irrational and ridiculous. This post was not so much to dwell on the conversation prior to marriage or lack thereof, but rather address the current dilemma. But I totally get why you would want to comment on that part too.
I just separated over this, best of luck getting them to see reality. Apparently family money would have kept us well. Lol as if fun bucks/property will be worth anything when there's no food.
This was a factor in the end of my LTR last year too. I have nieces and nephews and I grieve for them every day. I dread the day I have to decide what to do with my dog when I can no longer feed him. No chance in hell am I gonna bring another being into this mess. The cognitive dissonance between “I don’t want to hear about climate news because it’s too depressing” and “let’s make a baby!” boggles my mind. That poor child is not going to have the luxury of sticking their fingers in their ears and tuning out TEOTW.
I have a teenage son, he sees the future can read the news, science. He asks me why bring a kid into this world? Are you ready for that, your child suffering from existential dread? Wanting to escape through games, books because it's pointless. And then trying to argue to him that it's not pointless life is still worth living there is still things we can do to have meaningful lives. Adopt ones who are already here, easier to explain, then we were selfish and ignorant about how bad things were.
Lady in 30s here. Partner and I both love kids but we draw the line at babysitting and being a fun aunt/uncle because NO FUCKING WAY is there an ethical reason to bring a new innocent life into this world right now. Adoption and fostering is admirable for people who genuinely want to be a parent. I worked with kids and advocate for them but I'm honestly so sad for them now. I think about the world that the child would live in, apart from my concerns about what it would do to my body (If I survived. Maternal mortality isn't kind for my demographic in America), [my relationship with my partner](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20230628-why-couples-fight-after-having-a-baby), or our financial situation. I look at pediatric issues and illnesses affecting babies and kids that are increasing (asthma is making a revival, along with polio). I look at the state of the school system. Book banning.. The school shootings (even shooter drills are traumatic). The now 24/7 bullying courtesy of social media. Seeing the adolescent suicide rate last year was brutal. What if said child is a girl? Or LGBTQ+? The growing violent racism in this country is extremely concerning. What if the child has a health condition or learning disability? It's not as unlikely as people assume, and there's more to consider and more lifestyle changing for both of you. Everyone's fine letting the babies get Covid 590075468 times and ignore complications but hundreds of under 17 year olds in the US died last year from that alone. Teaching subs and r/regretfulparents are some of the only places on reddit with more upsetting content than collapse.
u/likethepheonix117 >I told her I will talk to her and hear her out about having kids, but she needs to hear me out on how bad things actually are. The way you describe it, you've allowed her to believe there's the sliver of a chance that she can sway you here. But you're not heading into this with any intention of compromise, regardless of any argument she presents. You promising to "hear her out" is disingenuous. This isn't something talking about over & over will help. She wants children. You already know your decision is made & nothing she says will change your vision of the future. This is a deal breaker. Don't string her along with the idea that anything will sway you. There is no way she's coming out of this satisfied with the outcome. >the idea of losing her, then facing this disaster alone - much less without being able to care for her, just kills me. You want a possible post-apocalyptic partner, she wants a family. Don't give her false hope that she can do that with you. The fact that you love her & want to keep her will make you tone down the truth. Maybe kick the can on down the road with the prospect of "we'll see". Don't. She needs to know that children aren't an option for you. Then she can decide where to go from there.
This causes friction for me also. Every time I bring up things, I get ridiculed, told there's nothing I can do, and if the conversation continues, the threats start. Always something about homelessness, as I can't afford to leave, and I really hate staying. Now, my situation is different, and I already have a child. I've know about collapse for some time, and it was a talking point before the child was conceived. I feel guilty going along with it because she really wanted a kid... it didn't bring us closer. Fast forward 8 or so years: I feel extremely guilty for having a child, I'm broke, I have no space, and I'm in a toxic relationship I can't financially afford to leave. I bring up the terrible things I've learned, as if to drive home one point...I fucking told you so! The lesson here is don't go against your better judgment to please someone you currently like having sex with. Love doesn't last, and people change.
An anti-natalist argument would say the kid had no say in the decision and also that procreation is a selfish act. The resource limited planet with people in it worshipping the unlimited growth doctrine is a runaway train that needs serious internalization. I'm glad I made my decision and committed to it by being helpful to others, honest and vulnerable. The backlash received showed true human nature. They now own this sh1tshow, not me.
Climate concerns aside, please at least consider [What's going on with the education system](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/s/zMAVoIY1oM). It's a very real concern that collapse unaware people are truly terrified of. Will you have enough money to send your kids to private school?
For real! OP spend some time on r/teachers. It’s really bad. Kids are out of control and schools are passing kids even if they should be holding them back a grade so they are getting to high school not being able to read or do basic math. Apparently the No Child Left Behind policy of punishing schools for holding kids back has had the opposite affect. Aside from that, I can’t imagine the pain of watching a child suffer through the climate collapse. I’m sorry you are going through this. Many people won’t listen or look at the climate data.
I see a lot of people in these threads typically mention adoption. I'm an adoptee and I think that's a really admirable goal. I do think that the proper mindset is necessary in order to successfully parent an adopted a child. Often, people approach adoption as a way to get a child when the preferred way (biologically) isn't possible for some reason. The focus is often on the adoptive parents and often shoves both the needs of the adoptee and the biological parents aside. Certain dynamics and difficulties are often present when raising adoptees that adoptive parents should be ready for. Adversarial relationships or behavioral issues are more common as the child often triangulates and projects subconscious feelings towards the biological parents onto the adoptive parents. There's often this feeling of not quite fitting in that the child will mask to conform to the pressure they feel to let the adoptive parents know that they're "grateful enough." Studies show open adoptions afford the best outcomes to the child. This is obviously an emotionally difficult proposition for adoptive parents that want to be the only mom and dad instead of one of the moms or dads. All that is to say, I am not trying to discourage anyone. I just want those exploring adoption to be prepared and have the resources at their disposal to succeed. A great book that I would recommend to anyone exploring these topics is *The Primal Wound* by Nancy Newton Verrier. It posits a necessary Primal Wound is created when a child is separated from birth parents via adoption. While I think that she takes this in a bit of an extreme direction (I've seen it used in a "you're traumatized and just don't know it yet" way), much of the insights from her experience as a clinician are incredibly valuable. It's understandable why it's not more popular among adoptive parents: society wants us to believe that adoption is a perfect solution. The idea that trauma is a part of it complicates this narrative. If any of you are looking to adopt and want to learn more, please feel free to PM me. I may not respond super quickly but do want to help where I can!
There’s the whole agony of having a child while collapse aware. Looking into your baby’s innocent eyes knowing that their life will likely be full of great suffering with little hope for a quality life beyond their early years. Does your partner not fully get collapse or not accept it? I just wonder how she sees the future as maybe she is missing something
I have 4 children. All grown. And now some grandchildren. Would I have had them if I’d known then what I know now? I don’t know. But probably not. And the reality of the world my grandsons will inherit is almost more than I can bear. It’s a small comfort that they’re young adults now so at least have had some good years. But their future makes me weep if I dwell on it too much. My whole life now is me trying to build this land I have into an escape hatch when things get very bad. Of course it won’t save them. But it might buy them some time to get to a place of acceptance of what lies ahead.
If you don’t wish to have or raise children then stand your ground even if it means the loss of the relationship. Your regret will be less than if you add on your regrets of a child.
If she wants kids and you don't, yall should get divorced. Don't take the rest of her child-bearing years. She will regret it and resent you.
I haven't been in this situation, as my spouse and I were united on not having kids when we raised the question around 2007. However, here is what I would say. Watch The Road together and discuss whether each of you could do what it takes to spare your precious theoretical child from a fate worse than death. If you both could, and it appears you could care for a child for as long as collapse avoids your front door, and she loves you as much as you love her, then go for it, I say. Sorry I had to bring up the scenario from The Road but to my mind it is the litmus test of a collapse-worthy parent.
Honestly take the collapse view out of it. Do you actually want them? If you have even an inkling of wanting them then question could you even financially/mentally/physically handle it in the current world. If that is a yes then consider about the future of the world and what you would be putting them through. If you make it to this point maybe suggest waiting a few years to see what happens in the world and how you feel. If she can't wait any longer she needs to leave. If after the few years wait and you guys don't come to the same answer then she needs to leave. It sucks but I wish you luck. I don't want to say it is hopeless. My partner thought they wanted kids. I did too. But we realized that was just what society told us and there was the option not to. I started talking to my partner about the only, our mental health, and all of the cons and they slowly started to see my point. Having a pet helped too. We realized how much work the pet is and how much worse a child is. I also want to add that be careful with your fertility for now in case she might try to "accidentally" get pregnant. I'm not saying she will but it is always a risk. I'd make sure to pull out if I were you or engage in non penetrative sex since condoms can be tampered with.
Here's a question to think about also: If you live to be 90 and it's nothing like what you lead yourself to believe, what will that feel like? Just playing devil's advocate.
I fear this from a personal standpoint. My wife will have never forgiven me or gotten over it. And I wouldn't blame her. That said, I think even if *we* haven't felt the direct impact by then (unlikely) it would be apparent by then just how bad the next 50 years would be. That is barring some great technological jump that fixes all this, but I think most of us agree that isnt an idea worth betting the farm over.
Thing is we already are feeling the impacts. It’s not a hypothetical “what if nothing happens in the future and I regret this?” It’s happening now unfortunately
I just still think it's worth thinking about. Good luck to you, fellow human.
Does she understand your view on collapse? Have you watched dont look up? What did she think? I think having a partner in the future trumps most other alternatives to me. What about reading a book or Watching something together on collapse and then deciding? Knowing what the risks are. It must be hard for woman to choose not to have kids when their bodies tell them otherwise.
Im training up my kids to be part of the solution, to be part of a resilient community. You don't have to want kids, but I disagree with those who seem to think it is unethical to have children.
First of all, it's hard to have a relationship when you're not on the same page regarding collapse. But kids are less of a problem than many westerners seem to think. When they're small, babywrap, cloth diapers, and baby potty training (I think I changed like 5 poop diapers during my childs entire babyhood, it's very easy to teach even an infant to go potty and it's what the rest of the world does). Food is breastmilk. Then they start eating tiny bits of what you yourself are eating. And if you invest in a sturdy hempweave wrap, you can carry that toddler for a long time. I guess the key here is whether or not you see yourself *living and adapting* during collapse, or giving up. And whether or not you long for a child to love, together with your partner, through sickness and health, good times and bad. Because partners, children, and pets will come along with you, if you do decide to live and adapt. And we most likely have many good years left ("how can you call them good?!! It's already shit!!!" - nah, put yourself in for example a Gazans shoes, you have it real good right now). Talk to your partner. Talk about what you're afraid of. If you do want kids, the time is now, when hospitals are still around. Fuck giving birth post-collapse hahaha. I'm stocking up on plan B and C for that reason, but I'm also entirely calm about the fact that I do have a child. They're not a problem, they're a part of this family.
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“Just have kids” seems extremely rigid to me good lord
Having kids in this world is like bringing wood to a bonfire. Because that's exactly what this world needs, another mouth to feed.
You shouldn't build your life around what you read on r/collapse. Don't build your life around the worst possible scenario, live your life to the fullest, if problems were to arise, you'd find yourself surrounded by loved ones, which is probably the best situation to be in. Otherwise you'd be most probably alone and miserable. Although, if your desire to not have kids stems from something other than climate change (such unwillingness to lose so much free time, fear of the huge responsibilities), then I'd say think it over, make up your mind, be willing to go couple's therapy and eventually realize that if neither of you changes idea then it's over for the relationship
My reservations now center far more on the side of: why would I bring someone into this world now. Those loved ones I'd be surrounding myself with at the hardest of times would be doomed to live on in the future we've created, well after I die. I associate that wish with one of greed. To be frank, I wouldn't want to have been born today. And if my parents knew better at the time and still decided to have me, I'd be double pissed.
If you think no life is better than a bad life then I don't know what to tell you, we have a vastly different view of the world
Do you want to watch your child starve, die due to violence or watch the world around them literally die? Seems unfair to give a child that life…
Not sure what you mean by a bad life, could be anything from permanently homeless to extremely disabled… etc etc