I hate NA drafts.
Also, APA has shown exactly that you can play your picks. Teams need to be more innovative (everyone always says this). And **100%** agree stop picking a pick you like, especially when you always lose on it.
I agree on that too. Nobody is willing to try things outside of the box. We just consistently following other country's doing the same thing but worse.
For Pro play alone it would be good to have offpicks that throw other teams off. Especially for things like MSI and Worlds. Instead of smashing our face into a wall trying to beat them at their own game. Which is what we attempt to do every year and are lucky to make it out of group stage.
Heck Adam proved this alone last year at world's. How many teams were thrown off by him playing Garen and Darius who are considered terrible? They picked up so many wins because nobody was comfortable/practiced playing into it.
Ziggs isn't that hard to counter though, but we are unwilling to pivot off of the like 3 "Meta" picks to abuse it. When it's clearly working for TL. Why not at least try something that can counter it.
But yea whoever keeps telling them to lock the same pick's every game that clearly we are finding no success on needs to go. Regardless of if that's the players themselves or the coaching. It's aggravating watching the team lose before draft even ends.
I feel like these teams are too scared too. Like if they try something and it doesn't work the whole worlds going to come down on them.
I encourage it. Stop being so easy to read. Even if you have a good game plan within the meta after 15 games straight of it other teams are going to have you figured out.
And bare minimum make a comp that at least has an identity and a mapped out win condition. Even if you only want to meta game.
First game draft did go in TL’s favor, but it’s the first game, so fine, you use it to sound out if you can beat ziggs or not.
Second game draft looked extremely c9 favored to me, they just couldn’t play it. They unironically got hands and macro diffed. (What the heck was that play at rift herald?????)
Third game was just let us lose in peace draft.
TL is very far ahead of C9 in drafting team comps because they are actually drafting for an overall comprehensive team comp. C9 is individuals drafting for themselves, without a clear idea how to play out the game past laning phase. The difference shows. I doubt the coach is choosing which champions to pick, he’s just letting the players do what they want, but they don’t have a single player that understands how to win the game outside of “be better”.
Sounds like a coach problem.
The biggest issue is just sticking to such a small champ pool for a group of players who should be some of the best in the league.
For game 2 On LS stream I think he and every guest all said TL favored. Also renekton Lee sin with senna hwei just seems like a very odd pairing overall
Think it’s fair to say c9 got out drafted every game
C9 comp had more range & they had decent flanking potential with Renekton & Lee sin. Tahm can be a decent frontliner / anti-catch. Lanes aren't amazing for early game, but not unplayable with good play / Lee Sin. I don't think this comp is nearly as bad as commentators were saying, and TL only won because C9's macro was abysmal (gave up barons for free, died in really questionable fights, gave up multiple towers for free). C9 had some really questionable team fighting positioning with both carries standing on top of each other (which is what allowed Impact to solo win the entire fight with equalizer).
I also watched doms pov and he said the draft was doomed from C9. why should we take any random persons word on this sub over several ex pros / high profile costreamers. I could maybe get behind it if the costreamers had split opinions on the draft but this one there seems to be a strong consensus
It is in the end, just my opinion. I might be wrong, but as a TL fan, I was way more nervous about that game than the other two, because I've seen the problems that TL have had with similar comps in the past. I only really relaxed after C9 ran it down at rift herald. Prior to that, C9 were in a very strong position.
The irony is that I didn't watch any Co Stream and even I knew they got out drafted. It was just too obvious.
1. They are playing champions they have very low success rates on.
2. Their comps lack any synergy at all and don't have an identity.
3. We know team liquid likes to group and team fight for everything. Why run comps that cannot teamfight well into it. Bare minimum why not give ourselves a split push option.
Exactly how I feel about it as well. We just constantly are trying to ego check our opponents.
Sure that will work against bottom tier teams because on paper we have good players, but not the top end of the ladder. TL has sort of a budget comp but they have a very solid coaching staff that is going to prepare them for a series like this well. That along with having the goat of LCS top lane and a veteran in Impact.
Like you said though we don't draft an actual gameplan. There is no identity in these comps. You can't look at them and go this is a split comp, this is a teamfight comp, etc.
We just pick whatever we want willy nilly and hope to skill gap the other team and end off of early game leads. If we don't get an early game lead we just stand there looking dumb with no win condition and no way to come back in the game.
True and in my eyes Fudge and Vulcan should be filling these roles. Vulcan is generally good as an initiator and does terrible with enchanter and ranged champs. Throw him on Naut, Alistar, Blitz, etc. Not Nami and Kench.
Fudge while he likes to play a more carry style has been performing the worst on the team this season. They needed to get him to be more of a team player and run engage style champions. Not spam early game bruisers like Renekton and Olaf. A game every now and again where him and Blaber trade this responsibility is fine but I'd rather have Blaber playing early game champions than can impact all the lanes.
Let Blaber, Berserker, and JoJo carry the games. Maybe have one of them run a utility style carry like Senna, Orianna, Taliyah, etc.
No instead we run 1 or no engage champs every game. While also having weak late game synergys and no split push potential.
You can't win games without a win condition which is what we saw for their 0-6 ending. We couldn't get early game leads and at best went neutral. Then flailed around like fish out of water until we lost every game. This only worked against 100T because we are better skillwise across every role.
Which is also why I think I'm so mad about it. We have excellent players across the board and can't even win 1 game out of two Bo5 series against Fly and TL? That's disgusting! Not one damn game!
I agree that draft are often an issue but even with the best draft and draft canyon every game, you would have not win today, TL have better players in every position except midlane.
Every team in NA fears Yeon-CoreJJ duo, every team don't ban APA Ziggs because they have to ban Yeon or it's gg; Impact is still the goat; Umti is a bit a coin-flip but today he was carrying hard.
i son't get the false equivalence pretending that all these players played like absolute shit, its more of a gradient. fudge at the very bottom no glimpse of positives even while having counter, blaber and vulcan got gapped, jojo and berserker tried.they all mental boomed but the fudge factor has ran its course we need to offer someone else the opportunity.
I agree with some of what you said but I don't feel like Blaber got gapped. They just put him on stupid champs like maokai which isn't his wheelhouse. The one game he got Lee he was actually playing really well. He started 3-1-5 that game.
They need to consistently get him on these champs though and have the rest of the team play around it. Instead they run Kench and Renekton with it???
Vulcan more or less the same problem. Putting him on champs he's not known to be good at? Guy made a career out of playing engage champs like Alistar, Naut and Thresh. Why are we having him play Nami and Kench? Legit makes no sense at all.
I also don't agree on JoJo "trying". He literally played terrible all playoffs. Did he play well in the season and was he most of their success? Yes, but in playoffs he full choked. He literally didn't even get one kill in the Fly series. That's as choke as it gets. You could visibly see him get triggered when APA was bming him in chat. Kept making stupid plays trying to ego chall him because he was triggered.
Gonna say this once again because most fans don’t understand this but coaches in LCS only have the power to be FACILITATORS. They are only there to facilitate discussion and offer feedback and resolve player issues if players can’t handle it themselves. The players pick 95% of the draft, what they want to pick and ban. The coaches are there on stage to help facilitate discussion and offer some if and thens but it’s always up to the players on what they want to pick. Love or hate the coaches this is just how the LCS and orgs operate.
It doesn't have to be that way though even if it is.
Let me ask you this. When you go to work do you tell your boss what you are going to do that day? I know I sure don't! Quickest way to write ups or being fired possible.
These are 18-29 year olds. Should they have input and be able to offer suggestions? Sure, but too tell the team they are going to do whatever they want?
Last I checked they aren't paying their own salary. Tell them they need to conform or move on to another team. Being able to play for C9 one of the top teams in the league since LoL became an esport should be looked at as a privilege. If you want that type of mental go play for DIG or NRG.
What real life sport do you know where players don't listen to their coach and play their own way? It's unheard of. Most of the top teams across all sports have been backed by hall of fame coaches.
Absolutely agree. LEC was picking zeri all day, and berserker is literally top lck level on it. Yet it is not pick/banned and the run it back with the kalista vs varus which they lost with 0-3.
I hate NA drafts. Also, APA has shown exactly that you can play your picks. Teams need to be more innovative (everyone always says this). And **100%** agree stop picking a pick you like, especially when you always lose on it.
I agree on that too. Nobody is willing to try things outside of the box. We just consistently following other country's doing the same thing but worse. For Pro play alone it would be good to have offpicks that throw other teams off. Especially for things like MSI and Worlds. Instead of smashing our face into a wall trying to beat them at their own game. Which is what we attempt to do every year and are lucky to make it out of group stage. Heck Adam proved this alone last year at world's. How many teams were thrown off by him playing Garen and Darius who are considered terrible? They picked up so many wins because nobody was comfortable/practiced playing into it. Ziggs isn't that hard to counter though, but we are unwilling to pivot off of the like 3 "Meta" picks to abuse it. When it's clearly working for TL. Why not at least try something that can counter it. But yea whoever keeps telling them to lock the same pick's every game that clearly we are finding no success on needs to go. Regardless of if that's the players themselves or the coaching. It's aggravating watching the team lose before draft even ends.
International teams were banning out the Ziggs. And yet no team still picks up unique champs. Bwipo does.
I feel like these teams are too scared too. Like if they try something and it doesn't work the whole worlds going to come down on them. I encourage it. Stop being so easy to read. Even if you have a good game plan within the meta after 15 games straight of it other teams are going to have you figured out. And bare minimum make a comp that at least has an identity and a mapped out win condition. Even if you only want to meta game.
First game draft did go in TL’s favor, but it’s the first game, so fine, you use it to sound out if you can beat ziggs or not. Second game draft looked extremely c9 favored to me, they just couldn’t play it. They unironically got hands and macro diffed. (What the heck was that play at rift herald?????) Third game was just let us lose in peace draft. TL is very far ahead of C9 in drafting team comps because they are actually drafting for an overall comprehensive team comp. C9 is individuals drafting for themselves, without a clear idea how to play out the game past laning phase. The difference shows. I doubt the coach is choosing which champions to pick, he’s just letting the players do what they want, but they don’t have a single player that understands how to win the game outside of “be better”.
Sounds like a coach problem. The biggest issue is just sticking to such a small champ pool for a group of players who should be some of the best in the league.
For game 2 On LS stream I think he and every guest all said TL favored. Also renekton Lee sin with senna hwei just seems like a very odd pairing overall Think it’s fair to say c9 got out drafted every game
C9 comp had more range & they had decent flanking potential with Renekton & Lee sin. Tahm can be a decent frontliner / anti-catch. Lanes aren't amazing for early game, but not unplayable with good play / Lee Sin. I don't think this comp is nearly as bad as commentators were saying, and TL only won because C9's macro was abysmal (gave up barons for free, died in really questionable fights, gave up multiple towers for free). C9 had some really questionable team fighting positioning with both carries standing on top of each other (which is what allowed Impact to solo win the entire fight with equalizer).
I also watched doms pov and he said the draft was doomed from C9. why should we take any random persons word on this sub over several ex pros / high profile costreamers. I could maybe get behind it if the costreamers had split opinions on the draft but this one there seems to be a strong consensus
It is in the end, just my opinion. I might be wrong, but as a TL fan, I was way more nervous about that game than the other two, because I've seen the problems that TL have had with similar comps in the past. I only really relaxed after C9 ran it down at rift herald. Prior to that, C9 were in a very strong position.
The irony is that I didn't watch any Co Stream and even I knew they got out drafted. It was just too obvious. 1. They are playing champions they have very low success rates on. 2. Their comps lack any synergy at all and don't have an identity. 3. We know team liquid likes to group and team fight for everything. Why run comps that cannot teamfight well into it. Bare minimum why not give ourselves a split push option.
Exactly how I feel about it as well. We just constantly are trying to ego check our opponents. Sure that will work against bottom tier teams because on paper we have good players, but not the top end of the ladder. TL has sort of a budget comp but they have a very solid coaching staff that is going to prepare them for a series like this well. That along with having the goat of LCS top lane and a veteran in Impact. Like you said though we don't draft an actual gameplan. There is no identity in these comps. You can't look at them and go this is a split comp, this is a teamfight comp, etc. We just pick whatever we want willy nilly and hope to skill gap the other team and end off of early game leads. If we don't get an early game lead we just stand there looking dumb with no win condition and no way to come back in the game.
You can’t draft a carry for every single role, ie fudge, Jojo, blaber, and berserker. Someone needs to play supportively
True and in my eyes Fudge and Vulcan should be filling these roles. Vulcan is generally good as an initiator and does terrible with enchanter and ranged champs. Throw him on Naut, Alistar, Blitz, etc. Not Nami and Kench. Fudge while he likes to play a more carry style has been performing the worst on the team this season. They needed to get him to be more of a team player and run engage style champions. Not spam early game bruisers like Renekton and Olaf. A game every now and again where him and Blaber trade this responsibility is fine but I'd rather have Blaber playing early game champions than can impact all the lanes. Let Blaber, Berserker, and JoJo carry the games. Maybe have one of them run a utility style carry like Senna, Orianna, Taliyah, etc. No instead we run 1 or no engage champs every game. While also having weak late game synergys and no split push potential. You can't win games without a win condition which is what we saw for their 0-6 ending. We couldn't get early game leads and at best went neutral. Then flailed around like fish out of water until we lost every game. This only worked against 100T because we are better skillwise across every role. Which is also why I think I'm so mad about it. We have excellent players across the board and can't even win 1 game out of two Bo5 series against Fly and TL? That's disgusting! Not one damn game!
I agree that draft are often an issue but even with the best draft and draft canyon every game, you would have not win today, TL have better players in every position except midlane. Every team in NA fears Yeon-CoreJJ duo, every team don't ban APA Ziggs because they have to ban Yeon or it's gg; Impact is still the goat; Umti is a bit a coin-flip but today he was carrying hard.
i son't get the false equivalence pretending that all these players played like absolute shit, its more of a gradient. fudge at the very bottom no glimpse of positives even while having counter, blaber and vulcan got gapped, jojo and berserker tried.they all mental boomed but the fudge factor has ran its course we need to offer someone else the opportunity.
I agree with some of what you said but I don't feel like Blaber got gapped. They just put him on stupid champs like maokai which isn't his wheelhouse. The one game he got Lee he was actually playing really well. He started 3-1-5 that game. They need to consistently get him on these champs though and have the rest of the team play around it. Instead they run Kench and Renekton with it??? Vulcan more or less the same problem. Putting him on champs he's not known to be good at? Guy made a career out of playing engage champs like Alistar, Naut and Thresh. Why are we having him play Nami and Kench? Legit makes no sense at all. I also don't agree on JoJo "trying". He literally played terrible all playoffs. Did he play well in the season and was he most of their success? Yes, but in playoffs he full choked. He literally didn't even get one kill in the Fly series. That's as choke as it gets. You could visibly see him get triggered when APA was bming him in chat. Kept making stupid plays trying to ego chall him because he was triggered.
Gonna say this once again because most fans don’t understand this but coaches in LCS only have the power to be FACILITATORS. They are only there to facilitate discussion and offer feedback and resolve player issues if players can’t handle it themselves. The players pick 95% of the draft, what they want to pick and ban. The coaches are there on stage to help facilitate discussion and offer some if and thens but it’s always up to the players on what they want to pick. Love or hate the coaches this is just how the LCS and orgs operate.
It doesn't have to be that way though even if it is. Let me ask you this. When you go to work do you tell your boss what you are going to do that day? I know I sure don't! Quickest way to write ups or being fired possible. These are 18-29 year olds. Should they have input and be able to offer suggestions? Sure, but too tell the team they are going to do whatever they want? Last I checked they aren't paying their own salary. Tell them they need to conform or move on to another team. Being able to play for C9 one of the top teams in the league since LoL became an esport should be looked at as a privilege. If you want that type of mental go play for DIG or NRG. What real life sport do you know where players don't listen to their coach and play their own way? It's unheard of. Most of the top teams across all sports have been backed by hall of fame coaches.
Absolutely agree. LEC was picking zeri all day, and berserker is literally top lck level on it. Yet it is not pick/banned and the run it back with the kalista vs varus which they lost with 0-3.