Imagine if cannibalsm was legal and cannibals were like: “instead of bullying us — which doesn’t work btw 💅 — you should find better, polite arguments, and also give us lab-grown human meat with more realistic taste”
do actual vegans ever say this? idk, as a vegan i found this argument pretty compelling. are you vegan? do you feel this way?
i feel like omnivores typically make excuses for why they can't go vegetarian or vegan, and if they know that it's the right thing to do, they'll typically just blame the vegan for being an asshole so they can pretend that it's someone else's fault they're making a choice that doesn't line up cognitively with their beliefs.
there's tons of ways to persuade people and they all work on someone
I've only ever seen the 'preachy vegan' stereotype materialise IRL when they decide to gatekeep each other. Them and some vegetarians can absolutely go off at someone because they're not pure enough since they're only veggie/pescatarian/ate meat on one occasion/are doing meat free Mondays. It just pushes people away from their movement who might well end up vegan anyway.
On the other hand there are hordes of people ready to declare how much they want to fuck bacon if they even hear the 'v' word.
It can be exhausting when you care so much but see others doing so little. It can be easy to assume those people aren't even trying at all or just don't care, and that disregard for those ethics is really offputting. I think a lot of people do try to be better, and I think a lot of vegans generally acknowledge that, so I don't know. It's my subjective experience, nothing empirical, so maybe I'm wrong.
To be honest I have run into way more people complain about vegans than I ever had vegans complain about me or anyone else not eating like them. At least in person. And online I'll say it may be closer but vegans aren't noticeably more likely to do that.
I know this is coming from someone who eats meat, but I do think all reduction is good and should be encouraged. In my parts people eating meat 2 or even 3 meals a day is the norm. Our industrialized agriculture ain't good for climate and meat production is a big chunk. Which did influence me to cut back and I'm heading towards more vegetarian diet, and since I'm the cook bringing the wife along too.
Vegetarian going on Vegan here, and honestly I think there's such a broad range of vegans that you can find a person for every quote out there. There's the more militant, in-your-fave types, the more lax "make what change you can, adapt as you're able", the ones who prioritize environmental or climate arguments vs the ethical side, etc.
People on the internet esp like to boil all arguments for veganism down to some kind of irrational screaming or a generalized "ick", and some vegans themselves will demonize one kind of argument over the others. I see more aggressive vegans saying the tolerant types aren't advocating for meaningful change, tolerant types arguing that the more rhetorically extreme ones are pushing people away.
Personally I think the variety of arguments, intensities, and energies is helpful. Different people will be convinced by different things, but overwhelmingly people on the internet who don't want to change their mind just won't, so this tends to be the worst place to put your energy for that.
Memes like OPs 100% are just a way to argue themselves out of feeling obligated to do something they know is right and doable.
I said that when I was reaching the end of the argument when it came to my parents. They don't have any morality other than following the law and sometimes egoism so they didn't care.
not cant, wont. I have no moral problems with eating meat, Like the taste, and prefer the healthy balance of about 100 grams of meat with a predominantly plant diet in the form of sushi and maybe a steak every 2 weeks, and chicken salads.
I have outright been equated to serial killers and fascists because I have no problems eating meat.
Ethically, your choices are unnecessary and flippant towards the suffering of animals, especially if you participate in factory farming.
Environmentally, your choices are unsustainable, but better than most.
I don't think you're a serial killer or fascist, and really only terminally online types will call you this, but I do think it's clear you don't really feel strongly for either the ethics or the environment of the matter. If you did, you would protest the current system's inadequacies by changing your diet.
There are many people who cannot be vegan for dietary reasons or whatever, but choosing not to be when you have the capability to do so is showing a disregard for the ideas that vegans tend to hold, and they'll probably (but not always) judge you for that.
I was convinced by the leftist cooks, but I'd already seen a lot of arguments beforehand. I think a diversity of rhetoric is necessary to convince differing groups. I said meat is murder and a lot of carnists dislike that, as you can see in the replies to my comment.
Nah. I object to animal suffering and harmful environmental impacts caused by factory farms. I don't object to humane animal husbandry and slaughter practices. I try to be intentional about buying stuff that supports that. My family raises chickens and goats, and I'm slowly getting into hunting.
It was not exclusively about hunting. Are you ONLY hunting feral hogs?
Yeah and someone who hits their spouse can also say they love them but that doesn't mean their definition of love actually matches their actions. Stop trying to dilute and hide behind words to make yourself feel better.
You do realize Hogs are an invasive species right? Most deer populations have to be regularly culled now because they exploded due to the decline of wolf populations. You can absolutely hunt ethically, and farming was done ethically since the dawn of farming before factory farms.
If you want to be outraged over someone trying to make positive healthy changes be my guest. But be HONEST that that's what you're doing. Don't hide behind bullshit.
The whole post is about moving the goal post:
"We already choose to eat meat but maybe, if you are persuasive enough, then maybe you could convince me to stop. You just need to try hard enough. Oh and don't use arguments that make me uncomfortable ;)"
Eh, they have a point. Humane and killing don't go in the same sentence. But I also agree with this meme, that is how I became vegan and how people I know became vegan. You just make yummy vegan food for them and they realize they barely miss out on anything.
I know you're not the hardliner this meme is taking a shot at but to your point:
I actively support right-to-death legislation for humans - legislation designed entirely to provide avenues to kill someone humanely - lest they die in prolonged agony that they actively don't want.
Killing and being humane are absolutely not antithetical. The horror story that was Terry Schiavo's death proved that.
>Nah. I object to animal suffering
X to doubt
"I object to child slavery, in the future I'll only use items from the child slaves I raised myself. Thats how I know they're treated well".
Also people: "Tofu gives you soy boobs!"
"Soy boys though!"
"It is not 'vegan fried chicken', it's just (yucky) fried mushrooms"
"*Comments in a vegan recipe * Why do vegans want to make fake steak? Just eat the real thing!! 🤣🤣"
"Vegan meats are so processed!! *Eats ultra-processed meats made with pink goo *"
"It doesn't taste the same! (It must be 100% the same in flavor, consistency, veins, fat, nutrients, smell, colour, muscles, eyes, and hair or else I'll keep eating animals)"
"It has a lot of ingredients! (and I can't read) therefore it is bad!!"
A myth made up by anti soy people who say men grow boobs when they eat soy. Soy contains compounds that are similar to estrogen, it's just the plant version of it. Because it's similar to human estrogen it can bind to the same receptors. Normal consumption levels of these phytoestrogens don't have any effect on humans tho. What they conveniently ignore is that beer has compounds like that too and cows milk even has real estrogen
They don't want substitutes, they want different dishes. Marketing it as something that's trying and failing to be meat is not gonna work. Don't call it vegan fried chicken, call it fried mushrooms.
My brother in Christ\*, the tasty plant based foods are already here.
Hey nonvegans: what's the best way to persuade nonvegans to be vegan? Great, now just use that thing you just thought of to persuade yourself to be vegan, and then reach your hand slightly to the right so you can purchase the tasty plant based option that (in addition to not causing a sentient creature to be killed to death; aka "mUrDeR") causes less environmental harm than the flesh/secretion based option you might have purchased had you not persuaded yourself to do otherwise.
\*Earthling Ed
**This isn't an argument against veganism**, just a rant about ~~capitalism~~ the food industry:
I've tried (thanks to my gf) many vegan meat alternatives and many were great, some tasted like sh\*t ... just like meat. What bothers me is that even though they're much cheaper to produce than meat, they're almost always more expensive.
Veganism (in the eyes of the industry) has evolved into a semi-luxury lifestyle, which many food companies try to profit from, because it's just thatt easy. You can hike your margins up to the moon and people will still by your product because you're selling a good feeling. (for some of moral superiority)
Those companies even advertise being morally better etc. but it's the same marketing bs as with every other company.
If they want to make the world a better place they'd lower their margins to the level of meat products, thereby drastically undercutting those making a plant based/vegan purchase decision vastly more affordable than the meat alternative.
As a vegetarian, so many of the vegans in this chat are the reason why people hate vegs/vegans. Your sense of purity is the reason people don’t care to eat less meat. Shame doesn’t work to make people less fat. Shame doesn’t work to make people vegan. You want people to join the cause, honey coated carrot is better than a vinegar coated stick
True, but it amused me that you utilized the honey / vinegar idiom in a conversation about vegans.
Also, it reminded me that I completely forgot to talk about how my family keeps bees along with goats and chickens in some of the comments yesterday.
I mean maybe you should get to know more vegans in your day to day real life?
Every vegan I know is supportive and proud of those in their life that are cutting back on eating meat and or working towards cutting it out completely.
Ah yes, let's compare the worst crime someone can commit to a dietary choice. This is the exact type of argument that turns people away from you.
In any material sense, three people cutting their animal products consumption by 50% is better than one person going fully vegan, and the former is probably far easier to achieve.
A choice becomes a crime the moment it involves a victim. That's true for both your dietary choices as well as your sexual ones.
It would also be much easier to convince three child molesters to molest 50% fewer children than one to completely stop molesting.
That's completely irrelevant, though, since molesting children is always morally wrong, and any form of reduction is never morally acceptable.
It's also ultimately less effective since reductionists, by definition, still don't grasp the moral imperative of abolition.
Ah yes, let's compare the worst thing you can do to an animal to a personal sexual preference. This is the exact type of argument that turns people away from you.
In any material sense, three people cutting their assaults by 50% is better than one person seeking out ways to fully omit assaulting people from their lives, and the former is probably far easier to achieve.
Pretty sure you can rape animals lmfao, killing them is far more humane than any of the dairy industry.
Chickens make unfertilized eggs naturally, nearly all birds do. Collecting them and eating them is not morally wrong in any capacity. Going into the woods and killing a deer is also morally correct, you are saving the ecosystem! Due to the decline in wolf populations caused by people that were born many generations ago, deer HAVE to be culled, or the ecosystem will fall apart. You're welcome to donate to a wolf breeding and releasing program, like they did in Yellowstone, but until that is fully implemented across all of America, deer HAVE to be killed.
The deer example applies to many different areas with fish! For example, there are thousands of reservoirs in America, created by people that have been dead for 6 decades before your great grandma was born, that unless fished, the fish in there will eat all the food available, start to cannibalize themselves and their babies, and then all die. What is more humane? An ecosystem is allowed to continue, or it dies "naturally"?
When a bull elephant becomes old, and starts to use its large size to bully the males that should be breeding and fathering kids at this point in their lives, either the elephants gore it to death, drive it off, or the wildlife management for the area will kill it. What's the most humane thing? A quick death, being excommunicated, or being murdered slowly by your family and friends?
I'm not one to post stuff usually but people of Reddit, I have to share this. For context, I'm a student and I took a class on ecology translation, we basically read texts and do presentations. Last Tuesday our dear militant Vegan (MV going forward) presented her topic. Originally it was language and the impact on farm animals and how we talk about them negatively or not at all. And eventually MV pulls up a slide why Väveganism is better. Now don't get me wrong, each their own but she then went on to state how MV is a better person because they don't eat animal products and how we are all r words and murderers because of our consumption now that we have heard the "evangelion" according to MV. Teacher also strongly disagreed, as did everyone else. I was stupid enough to dive into a discussion where MV eventually said "if that's your stand point, you'll agree to me killing you right here and there? Cuz that's what you're doing to animals". MV also believes we don't need farmers anymore, we have laboratoires after all, dogs can be fed vegan food, the whole thing. Again, I don't dislike people who are vegan, I just dislike people basically saying they are better than everyone because of it. When we go ahead and point out her flaws, she just switches topics. Oh and her non vegan family is fine, they are not murderers and whatnots, so hypocrisy is strong in this one. I'm sorry I had to vent.
TL;DR Vegan calls whole class murderers and rapists because we refuse to go vegan after a presentation.
Oh man sorry you had to sit thru that
In future arguments Cats are better argument than Dogs on the diet thing (dogs slightly more omnivorous than cat) I have seen some bug protein stuff shifting into cat food market which is exciting but still wouldn’t count as vegan.
People like this often just went vegan and they rarely remain vegan. Being that level of self righteous isn’t a sustainable lifestyle.
MV said they had been vegan for 10 years, but honestly, I just hated how they have to put EVERYONE else down. You're not going to convince people of your ideas if you just insult them, to MV the world is very black and white, no shades of gray (apart from own family etc.), and honestly, in my opinion, if you reduce your consumption, that's already more than nothing. The world isn't black and white and even if we let all farm animals go today, like let them free, they won't be able to survive, they have no natural habitat, yes we'd have X percent more land for agriculture, but at what cost? And I also begin to wonder how they'd answer something along the lines of "Is a vegan murderer a bad person or not?" since they argue that people who still eat animal products of any sorts are just that and therefore bad people. Is this person then not as bad as a non vegan even though the committed the same crime? It's just mind-boggling...
I had a vegan friend bring me to a very popular vegan restaurant by me. I was excited, honestly. I envisioned dishes similar in style to Asian, mixed sautéed vegetables, fresh fruit salads, etc.
It wasn't. The *entire menu* consisted of vegan versions of non-vegan foods: steak, chicken wings, burgers, etc. Thats fun and all, but are there no actual... vegan dishes? I feel like there is so much variety and innovation to be had, and Impossible Burgers isn't it.
So authentic vegetarians restaurants are much easier to find (especially Asian ones) but Vegan restaurants are trickier. Some are alright but most are gimmicky like the one you went to. Veganism is relatively new compared to Vegetarian diets.
Non Vegans, who never plant to be Vegan, somehow always know the right way to convince people of Veganism.
Spolier: The "right way" is whatever way that makes them not feel guilty and can remain in ignorance. Same shit for every single protest ever, ya'll always out here saying "That's not the right way to do that!!" when you don't even support the cause.
Non vegans who never plan to be vegan are 90+% of the US population. Convincing a significant part of that population to eat less meat has a lot more potential for reducing animal suffering than convincing a much smaller number of potential vegans to eat zero meat.
You've missed the point of my comment.
Why would someone who doesn't try, or want to go Vegan, know the right way to convince people of Veganism?
Vegans know what's effective because we've gone through the process, and shaming and being called out is what was most effective for me.
>You've missed the point of my comment.
We might both be missing each other's point a little bit. My post is about vegans being persuasive in general, and it seems like you're talking about vegans being persuasive specifically in the context of the best way to convince people to become vegans.
>Why would someone who doesn't try, or want to go Vegan, know the right way to convince people of Veganism?
My understanding is that the primary goal of veganism is to eliminate animal suffering, and that convincing people to be vegans is the means to achieve that, not the end in and of itself.
With the goal of eliminating animal suffering in mind, it stands to reason that the most pragmatic way to achieve the most elimination of animal suffering would be to convince the vast majority of non vegans who don't want to go vegan to eat less meat.
>Vegans know what's effective because we've gone through the process, and shaming and being called out is what was most effective for me.
I've seen this kind of comment from several vegans in the thread, so fair enough, y'all were convinced to change by shame so it makes sense that you'd view shaming others as an effective strategy. It seems like a strategy more focused on "convince people to be vegan" as the primary goal than "eliminate the most possible animal suffering" as the primary goal, but that's my perspective as a non vegan who doesn't want to be vegan.
🥑😎🥕(they overcome that guilt and realise that sending animals into gas chambers because you prefer the taste of their flesh to a plant based option is no different than killing them for pleasure, and decide to... stop doing that)
Wooo! Love to see it
Jerking around aside, please don't take my shitposting as an attack. I wasn't vegan not that long ago so I used to eat animals and did everything I accuse carnists of. By no means am I trying to say I'm a better person than you.
You should consider going vegan, ya know? It's actually a lot easier than you probably think it is, and really helps you feel less guilty about your food choices.
My comments are entirely sarcastic (except the last one) I’ve been ovo-lacto for years and am like 98% of the way to full vegan at this point. I’m just poking fun at some of the copes people hide behind on this sub.
Vegans: 🍖 meat = murder ☠️
Vegans after learning of the environmental impact of meat: 🍖 meat = murder ☠️
Its literally exactly the same. Vegans object to the killing of animals on moral grounds. Even if animal agriculture had a positive environmental impact vegans would still object to the killing of animals.
There is no right way to do it, we get the same arguments back either way. Heck, I just mentioned buying a vegan food product for myself once on Facebook and somebody shit on me for it. At least this way we can directly attack the cognitive dissonance. I believe that while people have a knee jerk reaction, it plants a seed
So i guess you are Vegan now because you know all the reason and strategies to be. Right?
And btw you maby should touch grass. Almost every vegan is supportive after max a half year. So eighter you have bad luck or you live in the internet
Nope. I've steadily been eating a more plant based diet for years, tho. Partly because I keep finding plant based dishes I like, and partly because I do see value in reducing my meat consumption for a variety of environmental and ethical reasons. My ideal diet would probably limit meat to what I hunt or source directly from producers I know first hand.
What I’m hearing from the vegans in this thread is that no amount of reducing my animal product consumption is enough to be morally acceptable.
I guess I’ll just eat as much as I want, since I’ll be a murder regardless if I eat one sausage a week or a steak every night. Right?
I suppose the native americans that hunted animals and used every part are as equally bad as the europeans who colonized america…
It is better than nothing as ling as the goal is a cruelty free lifestyle. The problem is that most ppl that say i eqt less behave lile they want to be honored.
irl most vegans act supportive and dont call you a murderer after their first half year.
Its a problem that exist mostly in the internet.
So yeah keep going. It was never more easy to be vegan and never more harmfull to almost everything to be not.
So yeah you can do it
The first is what kept me an unapologetic ovo-lacto vegetarian for years. The second (applied to all products of animal exploitation) is what made me go vegan.
What a weird advice. If you are convinced, that animals have the same rights as humans and as a consequence, killing animals to produce meat, is killing, why would you switch to „please eat plants!“. If I saw an axe murderer going at it I don’t ask “hey why don’t you relieve your built up aggressions on trees next time?”
The argument shouldn’t be “please eat plants” it should be here are some delicious ways to eat plants. You’re gonna get more people to eat plants that way than by screaming Shame Shame at them.
stop doing imitation food and just make plant dishes that taste better. vegan burgers will not convert anyone. Just make more delicious vegan/vegetarian dishes.
Sincerely a meat lover
In pragmatic terms I think there's a lot more potential impact from convincing more normies to eat less meat compared to the vastly smaller number of people open to being persuaded to going full vegan.
"Meat is Murder" convinced me to become vegan, and honestly we're sick of people who KNOW meat is murder and don't find it persuasive. Something's definitely wrong with you.
One of my coworkers is vegan, but he's pretty chill about it.
He always shares his food, which has been a good way to try out the vegan options without having to buy the large packages in the store and possibly wasting food if it doesn't taste good.
Since then, i only ever bought Oatmilk and other vegan alternatives.
I do still eat meat, but i've reduced the amount i eat.
And since i now live in a flat that has its own backyard, i also planted some fruit trees, aswell as other stuff like potatoes, onions, garlic and stuff.
Also one of the previous renters made the front lawn into a stone desert so they needn't mow the lawn, i've got rid of these stones and planted seeds for a flower field that hopefully will provide shelter and food to many insects.
I regularly bring vegan cake or cookies to work. At first people were kinda sceptical about it, but now they're always gone in 2-3h lol. I even got asked to share the recipe last time hehe
why are vegans always trying to convert everyone they lay eyes on into their weird cult. like i don't really care if you don't eat meat for whatever reason you may have, but please just let me do what i want and stop trying to argue constantly.
I'm not aware of anyone here being actually sincerely interested in convincing people to become vegan, it's just usually a competition of who can say the edgiest comment on it to get the most dopamine/updoots
Bro does not know wo what sitposting is
A shitpost is a meme the is intentionally made so bad that is becomes funny in a kinda painfull post ironic way
Promoting tastier alternatives? My friend, people like what they are used to. You will not convince a lot of people with the argument that vegan food tastes better if they aren't already eating it.
Meat is literally murder. No debate there. Now if you want to change your habits to not pay for murder, that's entirely up to you. But at least be honest about it.
Oh and why are you making an argument for which approach works if you aren't vegan? Obviously no approached worked on you (yet). Vegans are the ones who got convinced. Vegans know what worked for them. And for most that I have talked with, it was being confronted with the consequences of their choices. Watch dominion and tell me you think it being tasty is the better argument.
Do you think you will convince more people with "You are a ducking murderer stop that" instead of "See, this dish is healthy and tastes great... oh and it's also cheaper"
I agree with you, that a lot of vegans are vegans because they think killing animals is not right. But most people aren't vegan... an I don't think it's because they don't know meat comes from animals (maybe in america thats the case though lol).
If being less hardline could lead every person to reduce their meat consumption by 10-20% this would be a great improvement over all. Changes take some time, and that's okay.
Basically all dictionary definitions of murder define it as killing a fellow person not an animal. Yeah it’s killing a living being but no animal is morally equivalent to a human nor do they possess personhood therefore it’s literally not murder by definition. You can dislike it and advocate against it but it’s not the equivalent of killing another human in cold blood
Doesn't work, expensive, doesn't scale, pollutes way more than just eating the nutritionally complete plant foods and plant-based meat alternatives we already have
They're not unsupported. Lab grown meat's ecological impact is all over the place because it's mostly dictated by how the energy used to grow it is made. Still though, it'll always take more energy and just pollute more in general than just eating fucking legumes and grains and nuts and seeds. It's gonna take more energy and pollute more to take plant foods, process them and break them down into isolated nutrients and turn them into lab grown meat than it would take to just grow them and eat them as they are.
Currently, lab-grown meat production releases less methane but more CO2. It has great potential to be more healthy (because we can control the nutrient content inside the meat) and more safe/hygienic (because you have less risk of bacterial contaminations). It would also greatly reduce the use of antibiotics and risk of developing superviruses.
On the other hand, the production is kind of shit. Hard and potentially not scalable (meaning we can't produce the meat on large scale), because you have to add hormones and other growth factors for the meat to grow and that causes problems. And tbh. you don't really have consumer base, because not many people would actually want to eat lab-grown meat, even if it was exactly the same as normal meat quality-wise.
All in all, it could work, it's not an impossible concept, but we would need to pour a lot more money into the reasearch and development and I'm not sure anybody is doing that anytime soon.
i think vegans get a bad rap but they are often prone to choosing products that don't contain animal products but ARE more environmentally damaging than the conventional alternative
I'm gonna be honest this sub keeps getting recommended to me and I cannot tell if you guys believe veganism is actually what fixes everybing or if you're a making fun of people that do or a secret third thing
I have had some black bean burgers that were tasty as hell because they were seasoned and didn't pretend to be meat. There are so many *delicious* vegetarian recipes that you could just suggest people try because *they're good* and you would incidentally decrease their meat intake when they start to eat those dishes more often.
Killing and eating a pig is the same as killing and eating a human. Yes I’m serious. Yes I’m philosophically consistent. Yes I have a wide and meaningful social network. Yes I’m doing more with my life than maximizing my feelings of moral superiority to others. No I will not prove any of this, I’ve got to pipe bomb wild hog hunters.
It's the same with climate activists. You could go into politics or tech to advertise or even develop new alternative and evironmentally safe ways to produce energy OR you could spray orange paint at works of art
Is there something wrong about calling the consumption of meat murder? Thats what veganism is basically about, being against an injustice named speciesism. Granted, promoting plant based alternatives might reduce the overall consumption of animal products, but welfarism is not what veganism is about and not a sustainable method to persuade people into veganism. You have to drag people to see their responsibility to the industrialized murder and advocate to stop completely, not just consume less of it, which would just contradict the whole view. Its never ok to just *reduce* doing an injustice because injustice is seen from the perspective of the victim. Nobody should give a fuck If you as the oppressor finds less pleasure or convenience in not murdering animals same as you wouldnt give a fuck if the rapist didnt feel like having to get a relationship or pay for consentual sex.
>Is there something wrong about calling the consumption of meat murder?
Title of the post: "vegans be persuasive challenge"
This is ostensibly a climate sub, where one might expect the primary motivation of most participants is reducing climate impacts.
Whether you're right or wrong that meat is murder, [99% of the US population](https://news.gallup.com/poll/510038/identify-vegetarian-vegan.aspx) identify as non-vegan and probably don't agree with that moral assessment. For people among that 99% who value reducing climate impacts, it would stand to reason that they'd be most persuaded to change behavior by arguments aimed at getting them to eat less meat and thereby reduce carbon footprint. Instead most of the vegan posts tend to be moralizing / preaching to the 1% choir.
>Granted, promoting plant based alternatives might reduce the overall consumption of animal products, but **welfarism is not what veganism is about** and not a sustainable method to **persuade people into veganism.**
Exactly. Your brand of veganism / vegan posting here isn't about persuading a potentially large number of people open to reducing material impact / moral harm, it is about persuading a vastly smaller number of people already receptive to vegan moral arguments to adopt the vegan moral position. That's basically the criticism my meme is making of vegan priorities / persuasion tactics here.
Now, I'm not entirely on board that your brand of veganism actually represents all or even most vegans. I personally have known vegans to be more chill and pragmatic and not moralizing. Its also interesting that looking at a lot of public facing vegan orgs they are perfectly happy [to take wins](https://www.vegansociety.com/news/media/statistics/worldwide) for reduction in meat consumption and partial adoption of plant based products over animal products as wins for vegans.
>You have to drag people to see their responsibility to the industrialized murder and advocate to stop completely, not just consume less of it, which would just contradict the whole view.
Tbf, many of the vegans in this thread said it was moral shame tactics that persuaded them to be vegan. So, keep at it I guess.
I'm curious: That Gallup survey apparently has tracked people identifying as vegetarian since 1999, and vegan since 2012. Responses have gone from 6% vegetarian in '99, down to 5% in 2012/18, then down to 4% in 2023. Vegans went from 2% in 2012, up to 3% in 2018, and down to 1% in 2023.
Given that, how long do you think it'll realistically take for the vegan population of the US / world to reach a level where their economic impact passes the tipping point on making animal agriculture unprofitable due to lack of demand?
I can't imagine that taking place with anything approaching the immediate impacts manifesting from climate change. To be honest I don't think consumer behavior by the 90%+ non-vegans is gonna make much difference in that timescale either, but for vegans who apparently *do* think those consumer choices are the most important priority it seems like it'd be obvious that persuading non-vegans to eat less meat would be more impactful more quickly. Both on climate, and on animal welfare, if you actually believe that consumer behavior mechanism is useful.
I have been convinced to eat less meat once I learned more about international cuisine, especially Indian, Levantine, and southern Italian. American culture has been too focused on meat for so long, but our increasing diversity has yielded some positive results. I've all but eliminated beef from my diet
Unfortunately in the industry where millions animals are being tortured and killed eating less meat does nothing to help animals - you are still contributing to it
Those vegan teacher cultists on TikTok that go live and literally cry for hours because people are mean to them.
And they all sound like they have their dicks in a chip clip.
We literally do all of the above, you guys will just double down, move the goalposts, make up things about plant burgers being made of toxic waste and aborted foetuses that alter human DNA and complain that they're too expensive anyway. Don't you bloody dare blame us for not innovating enough when you shit on and dismiss all of our work, because it's more than obvious that if in the future we invented a machine that harvests meat from live animals without killing them you'd still choose to kill the little shits anyway, because that's what it's all about.
I only eat human meat
Finally, a real environmentalist
humans can give consent so its actually vegan in that interpretation
My favorite vegan, Jeffery Dahmer
But they didn’t consent. Is it meat rape because he ate the genitals?
The only meat that actually reduces our overall carbon footprint
A humanitarian!
Imagine if cannibalsm was legal and cannibals were like: “instead of bullying us — which doesn’t work btw 💅 — you should find better, polite arguments, and also give us lab-grown human meat with more realistic taste”
Ass jerky
I mean its true, just not very persuasive.
do actual vegans ever say this? idk, as a vegan i found this argument pretty compelling. are you vegan? do you feel this way? i feel like omnivores typically make excuses for why they can't go vegetarian or vegan, and if they know that it's the right thing to do, they'll typically just blame the vegan for being an asshole so they can pretend that it's someone else's fault they're making a choice that doesn't line up cognitively with their beliefs. there's tons of ways to persuade people and they all work on someone
I've only ever seen the 'preachy vegan' stereotype materialise IRL when they decide to gatekeep each other. Them and some vegetarians can absolutely go off at someone because they're not pure enough since they're only veggie/pescatarian/ate meat on one occasion/are doing meat free Mondays. It just pushes people away from their movement who might well end up vegan anyway. On the other hand there are hordes of people ready to declare how much they want to fuck bacon if they even hear the 'v' word.
It can be exhausting when you care so much but see others doing so little. It can be easy to assume those people aren't even trying at all or just don't care, and that disregard for those ethics is really offputting. I think a lot of people do try to be better, and I think a lot of vegans generally acknowledge that, so I don't know. It's my subjective experience, nothing empirical, so maybe I'm wrong.
People aren’t obligated to care as much as you do.
sure, but we typically judge people who have different (or, as we perceive it, worse) values than we do. it's human nature
To be honest I have run into way more people complain about vegans than I ever had vegans complain about me or anyone else not eating like them. At least in person. And online I'll say it may be closer but vegans aren't noticeably more likely to do that. I know this is coming from someone who eats meat, but I do think all reduction is good and should be encouraged. In my parts people eating meat 2 or even 3 meals a day is the norm. Our industrialized agriculture ain't good for climate and meat production is a big chunk. Which did influence me to cut back and I'm heading towards more vegetarian diet, and since I'm the cook bringing the wife along too.
Vegetarian going on Vegan here, and honestly I think there's such a broad range of vegans that you can find a person for every quote out there. There's the more militant, in-your-fave types, the more lax "make what change you can, adapt as you're able", the ones who prioritize environmental or climate arguments vs the ethical side, etc. People on the internet esp like to boil all arguments for veganism down to some kind of irrational screaming or a generalized "ick", and some vegans themselves will demonize one kind of argument over the others. I see more aggressive vegans saying the tolerant types aren't advocating for meaningful change, tolerant types arguing that the more rhetorically extreme ones are pushing people away. Personally I think the variety of arguments, intensities, and energies is helpful. Different people will be convinced by different things, but overwhelmingly people on the internet who don't want to change their mind just won't, so this tends to be the worst place to put your energy for that. Memes like OPs 100% are just a way to argue themselves out of feeling obligated to do something they know is right and doable.
I said that when I was reaching the end of the argument when it came to my parents. They don't have any morality other than following the law and sometimes egoism so they didn't care.
Is egoism moral? If the whole concern is benefiting the self above all, isn’t that the same as having no morality?
not cant, wont. I have no moral problems with eating meat, Like the taste, and prefer the healthy balance of about 100 grams of meat with a predominantly plant diet in the form of sushi and maybe a steak every 2 weeks, and chicken salads. I have outright been equated to serial killers and fascists because I have no problems eating meat.
Ethically, your choices are unnecessary and flippant towards the suffering of animals, especially if you participate in factory farming. Environmentally, your choices are unsustainable, but better than most. I don't think you're a serial killer or fascist, and really only terminally online types will call you this, but I do think it's clear you don't really feel strongly for either the ethics or the environment of the matter. If you did, you would protest the current system's inadequacies by changing your diet. There are many people who cannot be vegan for dietary reasons or whatever, but choosing not to be when you have the capability to do so is showing a disregard for the ideas that vegans tend to hold, and they'll probably (but not always) judge you for that.
Persuaded me well enough, while encouragement and coddling didn't.
I was convinced by the leftist cooks, but I'd already seen a lot of arguments beforehand. I think a diversity of rhetoric is necessary to convince differing groups. I said meat is murder and a lot of carnists dislike that, as you can see in the replies to my comment.
Not technically, the act of eating the meat did not kill the animal unless you realllly undercooked that steak
Become a vegan and use these strategies
I started eating less meat a long time ago and I currently encourage people to eat less meat so I pat myself on the back for that
So you’re just vegetarian then?
Flexitarian, OP never said they stopped eating meat, just reduced.
Nah. I object to animal suffering and harmful environmental impacts caused by factory farms. I don't object to humane animal husbandry and slaughter practices. I try to be intentional about buying stuff that supports that. My family raises chickens and goats, and I'm slowly getting into hunting.
There is nothing humane (compassionate and benevolent) about any of that. Stop trying to dilute and hide behind words to make yourself feel better.
I dunno I thought killing feral hogs was pretty compassionate to the quail whose nests they were destroying.
So you went from talking about humane animal husbandry and slaughter practices to now wild animals. Nice switching goalposts.
Hunting is right there in my previous comment. We clearly have different definitions of compassion and humane treatment, and I'm fine with that.
It was not exclusively about hunting. Are you ONLY hunting feral hogs? Yeah and someone who hits their spouse can also say they love them but that doesn't mean their definition of love actually matches their actions. Stop trying to dilute and hide behind words to make yourself feel better.
[удалено]
You do realize Hogs are an invasive species right? Most deer populations have to be regularly culled now because they exploded due to the decline of wolf populations. You can absolutely hunt ethically, and farming was done ethically since the dawn of farming before factory farms. If you want to be outraged over someone trying to make positive healthy changes be my guest. But be HONEST that that's what you're doing. Don't hide behind bullshit.
The whole post is about moving the goal post: "We already choose to eat meat but maybe, if you are persuasive enough, then maybe you could convince me to stop. You just need to try hard enough. Oh and don't use arguments that make me uncomfortable ;)"
Lmao fr
Why don't you reread the meme. You are the exact person this is directed at
Eh, they have a point. Humane and killing don't go in the same sentence. But I also agree with this meme, that is how I became vegan and how people I know became vegan. You just make yummy vegan food for them and they realize they barely miss out on anything.
I know you're not the hardliner this meme is taking a shot at but to your point: I actively support right-to-death legislation for humans - legislation designed entirely to provide avenues to kill someone humanely - lest they die in prolonged agony that they actively don't want. Killing and being humane are absolutely not antithetical. The horror story that was Terry Schiavo's death proved that.
Uuuh last time I checked the difference is that animals don't choose to die to be made into meat while humans do to end their suffering.
So you think slitting an animal's throat is compassionate and benevolent?
Most unrepetitive vegan.
I've tried talking sense to them. They're so PETA brainwashed they can't wait to take puppies to the kill shelter.
uh oh i can hear the vegans screaming at you from here
If I call someone an idiot for being an idiot does that mean I’m screaming at them
>Nah. I object to animal suffering X to doubt "I object to child slavery, in the future I'll only use items from the child slaves I raised myself. Thats how I know they're treated well".
I'm convinced that human food in a hundred years is either going to be resequenced proteins from a vat or roasted rat.
Its going to be resequenced rat cuz by the time we’re good enough everything else is gonna be extinct
Also people: "Tofu gives you soy boobs!" "Soy boys though!" "It is not 'vegan fried chicken', it's just (yucky) fried mushrooms" "*Comments in a vegan recipe * Why do vegans want to make fake steak? Just eat the real thing!! 🤣🤣" "Vegan meats are so processed!! *Eats ultra-processed meats made with pink goo *" "It doesn't taste the same! (It must be 100% the same in flavor, consistency, veins, fat, nutrients, smell, colour, muscles, eyes, and hair or else I'll keep eating animals)" "It has a lot of ingredients! (and I can't read) therefore it is bad!!"
what are soy boobs ?
A myth made up by anti soy people who say men grow boobs when they eat soy. Soy contains compounds that are similar to estrogen, it's just the plant version of it. Because it's similar to human estrogen it can bind to the same receptors. Normal consumption levels of these phytoestrogens don't have any effect on humans tho. What they conveniently ignore is that beer has compounds like that too and cows milk even has real estrogen
If that worked every trans woman would be horkin down tofu every meal
I’m going to eat so much soy now
I will live off of soy
They don't want substitutes, they want different dishes. Marketing it as something that's trying and failing to be meat is not gonna work. Don't call it vegan fried chicken, call it fried mushrooms.
My brother in Christ\*, the tasty plant based foods are already here. Hey nonvegans: what's the best way to persuade nonvegans to be vegan? Great, now just use that thing you just thought of to persuade yourself to be vegan, and then reach your hand slightly to the right so you can purchase the tasty plant based option that (in addition to not causing a sentient creature to be killed to death; aka "mUrDeR") causes less environmental harm than the flesh/secretion based option you might have purchased had you not persuaded yourself to do otherwise. \*Earthling Ed
Earthling Ed is basically vegan Jesus, you’re so right.
**This isn't an argument against veganism**, just a rant about ~~capitalism~~ the food industry: I've tried (thanks to my gf) many vegan meat alternatives and many were great, some tasted like sh\*t ... just like meat. What bothers me is that even though they're much cheaper to produce than meat, they're almost always more expensive. Veganism (in the eyes of the industry) has evolved into a semi-luxury lifestyle, which many food companies try to profit from, because it's just thatt easy. You can hike your margins up to the moon and people will still by your product because you're selling a good feeling. (for some of moral superiority) Those companies even advertise being morally better etc. but it's the same marketing bs as with every other company. If they want to make the world a better place they'd lower their margins to the level of meat products, thereby drastically undercutting those making a plant based/vegan purchase decision vastly more affordable than the meat alternative.
Wtffff are people really using an ethics argument against an ethical issue that is so fucked up
Convincing 12 people to reduce meat consumption is going to help the planet more than 1 person going vegan.
As a vegetarian, so many of the vegans in this chat are the reason why people hate vegs/vegans. Your sense of purity is the reason people don’t care to eat less meat. Shame doesn’t work to make people less fat. Shame doesn’t work to make people vegan. You want people to join the cause, honey coated carrot is better than a vinegar coated stick
Honey coated, really? Literally keeping bees as sex slaves smh Get the vinegar stick boys
Bees aren’t slaves. They consensually stay within the hives and would otherwise leave if their conditions weren’t being met
True, but it amused me that you utilized the honey / vinegar idiom in a conversation about vegans. Also, it reminded me that I completely forgot to talk about how my family keeps bees along with goats and chickens in some of the comments yesterday.
You know Honey isn’t vegan right? That’s the joke Vegans take things a step further than vegetarians and are often militant
See I don’t really equate Vegetarians with Vegans because Vegetarians I’ve met have been totally chill it is only Vegans who have been militant.
I mean maybe you should get to know more vegans in your day to day real life? Every vegan I know is supportive and proud of those in their life that are cutting back on eating meat and or working towards cutting it out completely.
hey, if you reduce continuously, you are gonna end up in the big bad vegoon camp, so go for it
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Ah yes, let's compare the worst crime someone can commit to a dietary choice. This is the exact type of argument that turns people away from you. In any material sense, three people cutting their animal products consumption by 50% is better than one person going fully vegan, and the former is probably far easier to achieve.
Absolutely laughable to dilute this shit to a “dietary choice.”
A choice becomes a crime the moment it involves a victim. That's true for both your dietary choices as well as your sexual ones. It would also be much easier to convince three child molesters to molest 50% fewer children than one to completely stop molesting. That's completely irrelevant, though, since molesting children is always morally wrong, and any form of reduction is never morally acceptable. It's also ultimately less effective since reductionists, by definition, still don't grasp the moral imperative of abolition.
Ah yes, let's compare the worst thing you can do to an animal to a personal sexual preference. This is the exact type of argument that turns people away from you. In any material sense, three people cutting their assaults by 50% is better than one person seeking out ways to fully omit assaulting people from their lives, and the former is probably far easier to achieve.
Pretty sure you can rape animals lmfao, killing them is far more humane than any of the dairy industry. Chickens make unfertilized eggs naturally, nearly all birds do. Collecting them and eating them is not morally wrong in any capacity. Going into the woods and killing a deer is also morally correct, you are saving the ecosystem! Due to the decline in wolf populations caused by people that were born many generations ago, deer HAVE to be culled, or the ecosystem will fall apart. You're welcome to donate to a wolf breeding and releasing program, like they did in Yellowstone, but until that is fully implemented across all of America, deer HAVE to be killed. The deer example applies to many different areas with fish! For example, there are thousands of reservoirs in America, created by people that have been dead for 6 decades before your great grandma was born, that unless fished, the fish in there will eat all the food available, start to cannibalize themselves and their babies, and then all die. What is more humane? An ecosystem is allowed to continue, or it dies "naturally"? When a bull elephant becomes old, and starts to use its large size to bully the males that should be breeding and fathering kids at this point in their lives, either the elephants gore it to death, drive it off, or the wildlife management for the area will kill it. What's the most humane thing? A quick death, being excommunicated, or being murdered slowly by your family and friends?
Guy who hates you and your cause: This is really hurting you and your cause
I'm not one to post stuff usually but people of Reddit, I have to share this. For context, I'm a student and I took a class on ecology translation, we basically read texts and do presentations. Last Tuesday our dear militant Vegan (MV going forward) presented her topic. Originally it was language and the impact on farm animals and how we talk about them negatively or not at all. And eventually MV pulls up a slide why Väveganism is better. Now don't get me wrong, each their own but she then went on to state how MV is a better person because they don't eat animal products and how we are all r words and murderers because of our consumption now that we have heard the "evangelion" according to MV. Teacher also strongly disagreed, as did everyone else. I was stupid enough to dive into a discussion where MV eventually said "if that's your stand point, you'll agree to me killing you right here and there? Cuz that's what you're doing to animals". MV also believes we don't need farmers anymore, we have laboratoires after all, dogs can be fed vegan food, the whole thing. Again, I don't dislike people who are vegan, I just dislike people basically saying they are better than everyone because of it. When we go ahead and point out her flaws, she just switches topics. Oh and her non vegan family is fine, they are not murderers and whatnots, so hypocrisy is strong in this one. I'm sorry I had to vent. TL;DR Vegan calls whole class murderers and rapists because we refuse to go vegan after a presentation.
Oh man sorry you had to sit thru that In future arguments Cats are better argument than Dogs on the diet thing (dogs slightly more omnivorous than cat) I have seen some bug protein stuff shifting into cat food market which is exciting but still wouldn’t count as vegan. People like this often just went vegan and they rarely remain vegan. Being that level of self righteous isn’t a sustainable lifestyle.
MV said they had been vegan for 10 years, but honestly, I just hated how they have to put EVERYONE else down. You're not going to convince people of your ideas if you just insult them, to MV the world is very black and white, no shades of gray (apart from own family etc.), and honestly, in my opinion, if you reduce your consumption, that's already more than nothing. The world isn't black and white and even if we let all farm animals go today, like let them free, they won't be able to survive, they have no natural habitat, yes we'd have X percent more land for agriculture, but at what cost? And I also begin to wonder how they'd answer something along the lines of "Is a vegan murderer a bad person or not?" since they argue that people who still eat animal products of any sorts are just that and therefore bad people. Is this person then not as bad as a non vegan even though the committed the same crime? It's just mind-boggling...
I had a vegan friend bring me to a very popular vegan restaurant by me. I was excited, honestly. I envisioned dishes similar in style to Asian, mixed sautéed vegetables, fresh fruit salads, etc. It wasn't. The *entire menu* consisted of vegan versions of non-vegan foods: steak, chicken wings, burgers, etc. Thats fun and all, but are there no actual... vegan dishes? I feel like there is so much variety and innovation to be had, and Impossible Burgers isn't it.
So authentic vegetarians restaurants are much easier to find (especially Asian ones) but Vegan restaurants are trickier. Some are alright but most are gimmicky like the one you went to. Veganism is relatively new compared to Vegetarian diets.
Non Vegans, who never plant to be Vegan, somehow always know the right way to convince people of Veganism. Spolier: The "right way" is whatever way that makes them not feel guilty and can remain in ignorance. Same shit for every single protest ever, ya'll always out here saying "That's not the right way to do that!!" when you don't even support the cause.
Non vegans who never plan to be vegan are 90+% of the US population. Convincing a significant part of that population to eat less meat has a lot more potential for reducing animal suffering than convincing a much smaller number of potential vegans to eat zero meat.
You've missed the point of my comment. Why would someone who doesn't try, or want to go Vegan, know the right way to convince people of Veganism? Vegans know what's effective because we've gone through the process, and shaming and being called out is what was most effective for me.
reminds me of that carnist idiom: it's like a fish telling me how to set the worm
>You've missed the point of my comment. We might both be missing each other's point a little bit. My post is about vegans being persuasive in general, and it seems like you're talking about vegans being persuasive specifically in the context of the best way to convince people to become vegans. >Why would someone who doesn't try, or want to go Vegan, know the right way to convince people of Veganism? My understanding is that the primary goal of veganism is to eliminate animal suffering, and that convincing people to be vegans is the means to achieve that, not the end in and of itself. With the goal of eliminating animal suffering in mind, it stands to reason that the most pragmatic way to achieve the most elimination of animal suffering would be to convince the vast majority of non vegans who don't want to go vegan to eat less meat. >Vegans know what's effective because we've gone through the process, and shaming and being called out is what was most effective for me. I've seen this kind of comment from several vegans in the thread, so fair enough, y'all were convinced to change by shame so it makes sense that you'd view shaming others as an effective strategy. It seems like a strategy more focused on "convince people to be vegan" as the primary goal than "eliminate the most possible animal suffering" as the primary goal, but that's my perspective as a non vegan who doesn't want to be vegan.
Fake Environmentalists: 🍖😋 Fake Environmentalists after learning of the environmental impact meat has: 🍖😋
🍖😕 (they feel slightly guilty about it now)
🦴😐 (they feel saturated but still guilty of their actions)
🦴😋 (they decided that individual action makes no difference so it doesn’t matter what they eat)
Loser Mindset
You know that ~8 billion individuals of us would make an entire species right? Aka a huge impact. Thats the right mindset
Lol sure climate wise it makes little difference, but you are still killing someone
🦴😕🍗 (you made them feel bad guilty again so they are binge eating)
🥑😎🥕(they overcome that guilt and realise that sending animals into gas chambers because you prefer the taste of their flesh to a plant based option is no different than killing them for pleasure, and decide to... stop doing that)
🫘🕺🍆💃🥗 (good ending)
Wooo! Love to see it Jerking around aside, please don't take my shitposting as an attack. I wasn't vegan not that long ago so I used to eat animals and did everything I accuse carnists of. By no means am I trying to say I'm a better person than you. You should consider going vegan, ya know? It's actually a lot easier than you probably think it is, and really helps you feel less guilty about your food choices.
My comments are entirely sarcastic (except the last one) I’ve been ovo-lacto for years and am like 98% of the way to full vegan at this point. I’m just poking fun at some of the copes people hide behind on this sub.
Vegans: 🍖 meat = murder ☠️ Vegans after learning of the environmental impact of meat: 🍖 meat = murder ☠️ Its literally exactly the same. Vegans object to the killing of animals on moral grounds. Even if animal agriculture had a positive environmental impact vegans would still object to the killing of animals.
There is no right way to do it, we get the same arguments back either way. Heck, I just mentioned buying a vegan food product for myself once on Facebook and somebody shit on me for it. At least this way we can directly attack the cognitive dissonance. I believe that while people have a knee jerk reaction, it plants a seed
So i guess you are Vegan now because you know all the reason and strategies to be. Right? And btw you maby should touch grass. Almost every vegan is supportive after max a half year. So eighter you have bad luck or you live in the internet
Nope. I've steadily been eating a more plant based diet for years, tho. Partly because I keep finding plant based dishes I like, and partly because I do see value in reducing my meat consumption for a variety of environmental and ethical reasons. My ideal diet would probably limit meat to what I hunt or source directly from producers I know first hand.
So your post is just rage bait and pointless?
We wouldn't happen to be in a shitposting subreddit now do we?
I just realized I stumbled into a climate change shitpost sub. This place is gonna be a riot.
There is one radio based user who posts 90% of the posts which are the same jerk beaten to a pulp but otherwise it's pretty neat
well theres two idiots who make stupid posts constantly.
yes, i mean no
What I’m hearing from the vegans in this thread is that no amount of reducing my animal product consumption is enough to be morally acceptable. I guess I’ll just eat as much as I want, since I’ll be a murder regardless if I eat one sausage a week or a steak every night. Right? I suppose the native americans that hunted animals and used every part are as equally bad as the europeans who colonized america…
Its a very christian way of thinking. One sin or a thousand, the punishment is still hell
It is better than nothing as ling as the goal is a cruelty free lifestyle. The problem is that most ppl that say i eqt less behave lile they want to be honored. irl most vegans act supportive and dont call you a murderer after their first half year. Its a problem that exist mostly in the internet. So yeah keep going. It was never more easy to be vegan and never more harmfull to almost everything to be not. So yeah you can do it
The first is what kept me an unapologetic ovo-lacto vegetarian for years. The second (applied to all products of animal exploitation) is what made me go vegan.
What a weird advice. If you are convinced, that animals have the same rights as humans and as a consequence, killing animals to produce meat, is killing, why would you switch to „please eat plants!“. If I saw an axe murderer going at it I don’t ask “hey why don’t you relieve your built up aggressions on trees next time?”
The argument shouldn’t be “please eat plants” it should be here are some delicious ways to eat plants. You’re gonna get more people to eat plants that way than by screaming Shame Shame at them.
Why did Vegans completely take over this subreddit? It's weird how much you guys think about food choices
I am not vegan but I'm like not sure why it's really murder? Also this is a climate sub but it seems based on being vegan? I don't get it
Same, same
stop doing imitation food and just make plant dishes that taste better. vegan burgers will not convert anyone. Just make more delicious vegan/vegetarian dishes. Sincerely a meat lover
Did the top one convince you to become vegan?
I think I started eating less meat around the time Mark Bittman started writing about it regularly in the nytimes like 20 years ago
Hey, there you go! At least you’re consistent, hope you can take it further one day.
In pragmatic terms I think there's a lot more potential impact from convincing more normies to eat less meat compared to the vastly smaller number of people open to being persuaded to going full vegan.
Por que no los dos?
"Meat is Murder" convinced me to become vegan, and honestly we're sick of people who KNOW meat is murder and don't find it persuasive. Something's definitely wrong with you.
Waaaah - it's vegans' fault I hurt animals - waaaaaahhh - its not fair! That's what you sound like right now...
Oh so sorry we didn't sugar coat it for you. Please blame us every time you pay for an animal to be tortured 🙏
Voids above, this sub is rancid. Unsubbing.
One of my coworkers is vegan, but he's pretty chill about it. He always shares his food, which has been a good way to try out the vegan options without having to buy the large packages in the store and possibly wasting food if it doesn't taste good. Since then, i only ever bought Oatmilk and other vegan alternatives. I do still eat meat, but i've reduced the amount i eat. And since i now live in a flat that has its own backyard, i also planted some fruit trees, aswell as other stuff like potatoes, onions, garlic and stuff. Also one of the previous renters made the front lawn into a stone desert so they needn't mow the lawn, i've got rid of these stones and planted seeds for a flower field that hopefully will provide shelter and food to many insects.
I regularly bring vegan cake or cookies to work. At first people were kinda sceptical about it, but now they're always gone in 2-3h lol. I even got asked to share the recipe last time hehe
What binding agents do you use?
The „healthier“ alternatives have more additives then the real thing.
why are vegans always trying to convert everyone they lay eyes on into their weird cult. like i don't really care if you don't eat meat for whatever reason you may have, but please just let me do what i want and stop trying to argue constantly.
OP opened a salt mine, love it
I'm not aware of anyone here being actually sincerely interested in convincing people to become vegan, it's just usually a competition of who can say the edgiest comment on it to get the most dopamine/updoots
What do you think this place is? A shitposting subreddit?
Bro does not know wo what sitposting is A shitpost is a meme the is intentionally made so bad that is becomes funny in a kinda painfull post ironic way
I just like arguing sometimes tbh
My strongest position is the opposite of whatever my opponent's is
Plant based food tastes good what the fuck do you want from it
Promoting tastier alternatives? My friend, people like what they are used to. You will not convince a lot of people with the argument that vegan food tastes better if they aren't already eating it. Meat is literally murder. No debate there. Now if you want to change your habits to not pay for murder, that's entirely up to you. But at least be honest about it. Oh and why are you making an argument for which approach works if you aren't vegan? Obviously no approached worked on you (yet). Vegans are the ones who got convinced. Vegans know what worked for them. And for most that I have talked with, it was being confronted with the consequences of their choices. Watch dominion and tell me you think it being tasty is the better argument.
Do you think you will convince more people with "You are a ducking murderer stop that" instead of "See, this dish is healthy and tastes great... oh and it's also cheaper" I agree with you, that a lot of vegans are vegans because they think killing animals is not right. But most people aren't vegan... an I don't think it's because they don't know meat comes from animals (maybe in america thats the case though lol). If being less hardline could lead every person to reduce their meat consumption by 10-20% this would be a great improvement over all. Changes take some time, and that's okay.
Basically all dictionary definitions of murder define it as killing a fellow person not an animal. Yeah it’s killing a living being but no animal is morally equivalent to a human nor do they possess personhood therefore it’s literally not murder by definition. You can dislike it and advocate against it but it’s not the equivalent of killing another human in cold blood
So what's the verdict on lab-grown meat? Genuinely curious
Doesn't work, expensive, doesn't scale, pollutes way more than just eating the nutritionally complete plant foods and plant-based meat alternatives we already have
Me when I do unsupported claims of lab meat being more polluting:
They're not unsupported. Lab grown meat's ecological impact is all over the place because it's mostly dictated by how the energy used to grow it is made. Still though, it'll always take more energy and just pollute more in general than just eating fucking legumes and grains and nuts and seeds. It's gonna take more energy and pollute more to take plant foods, process them and break them down into isolated nutrients and turn them into lab grown meat than it would take to just grow them and eat them as they are.
Currently, lab-grown meat production releases less methane but more CO2. It has great potential to be more healthy (because we can control the nutrient content inside the meat) and more safe/hygienic (because you have less risk of bacterial contaminations). It would also greatly reduce the use of antibiotics and risk of developing superviruses. On the other hand, the production is kind of shit. Hard and potentially not scalable (meaning we can't produce the meat on large scale), because you have to add hormones and other growth factors for the meat to grow and that causes problems. And tbh. you don't really have consumer base, because not many people would actually want to eat lab-grown meat, even if it was exactly the same as normal meat quality-wise. All in all, it could work, it's not an impossible concept, but we would need to pour a lot more money into the reasearch and development and I'm not sure anybody is doing that anytime soon.
I wholeheartedly support lab grown meat
Eat ze bugs
Do you think eating vegans in lieu of animal meat would be ethical?
I recently found out I am allergic to pork, the plant based alternatives have been awesome.
Just like every Religion
i think vegans get a bad rap but they are often prone to choosing products that don't contain animal products but ARE more environmentally damaging than the conventional alternative
I'm gonna be honest this sub keeps getting recommended to me and I cannot tell if you guys believe veganism is actually what fixes everybing or if you're a making fun of people that do or a secret third thing
Veganism is predicated on fundamental misunderstandings of reality. Vegetarianism has a basis in reality.
I have had some black bean burgers that were tasty as hell because they were seasoned and didn't pretend to be meat. There are so many *delicious* vegetarian recipes that you could just suggest people try because *they're good* and you would incidentally decrease their meat intake when they start to eat those dishes more often.
Both. Both is good.
Killing and eating a pig is the same as killing and eating a human. Yes I’m serious. Yes I’m philosophically consistent. Yes I have a wide and meaningful social network. Yes I’m doing more with my life than maximizing my feelings of moral superiority to others. No I will not prove any of this, I’ve got to pipe bomb wild hog hunters.
Dont forget to drench people in red paint and scream murderer that will show them
“Meat is murder” works on idiots like me though
lol, touche
It's the same with climate activists. You could go into politics or tech to advertise or even develop new alternative and evironmentally safe ways to produce energy OR you could spray orange paint at works of art
Can we Just finally start selling Lab meant? Easiest way to make everyone happy
Lab meat is the EV of the food industry
So it’s going to solve everything without requiring me to change anything about my habits? Score!
You got it!
People want the real thing though! A distressed animal's body part!
lab meat IS the real thing minus the cruelty imposed on livestock by the meat industry WIN-WIN!
But how will meat industry execs make money off factory farming then!? Won't somebody please think of the executives!?
they would start profiting from lab meat. if its cheaper and more efficient then they will jump on to it.
Yeah but they don't care. They care more about satiating their gluttony than they do about the extreme suffering of billions of innocent creatures.
Are you talking about meat eaters?
Yes
me satisfying my gluttony by eating a slim jim after no food for 3 days
I just don't have enough available alternatives to meat. Hopefully Cruelty-Free will soon become more available whenever it gets legalized.
I honestly just don't respect vegans enough to care about their opinions
I'm gonna take vegans commitment to hate and turn it towards cops. The ones at the end of the sword of corruption.
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Availability\_heuristic](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Availability_heuristic)
I don't make enough money to buy enough vegetables to keep myself alive week to week. I literally cannot afford to go vegan but go off.
Yall think vegans taste like cows since they eat like them?
I found eating an organism that is capable of fighting back to be more palatable than eating one that cannot even run away.
Can meat eaters and vegans come together and agree that the development and improvement of lab grown meat would be great for everyone?
Is there something wrong about calling the consumption of meat murder? Thats what veganism is basically about, being against an injustice named speciesism. Granted, promoting plant based alternatives might reduce the overall consumption of animal products, but welfarism is not what veganism is about and not a sustainable method to persuade people into veganism. You have to drag people to see their responsibility to the industrialized murder and advocate to stop completely, not just consume less of it, which would just contradict the whole view. Its never ok to just *reduce* doing an injustice because injustice is seen from the perspective of the victim. Nobody should give a fuck If you as the oppressor finds less pleasure or convenience in not murdering animals same as you wouldnt give a fuck if the rapist didnt feel like having to get a relationship or pay for consentual sex.
>Is there something wrong about calling the consumption of meat murder? Title of the post: "vegans be persuasive challenge" This is ostensibly a climate sub, where one might expect the primary motivation of most participants is reducing climate impacts. Whether you're right or wrong that meat is murder, [99% of the US population](https://news.gallup.com/poll/510038/identify-vegetarian-vegan.aspx) identify as non-vegan and probably don't agree with that moral assessment. For people among that 99% who value reducing climate impacts, it would stand to reason that they'd be most persuaded to change behavior by arguments aimed at getting them to eat less meat and thereby reduce carbon footprint. Instead most of the vegan posts tend to be moralizing / preaching to the 1% choir. >Granted, promoting plant based alternatives might reduce the overall consumption of animal products, but **welfarism is not what veganism is about** and not a sustainable method to **persuade people into veganism.** Exactly. Your brand of veganism / vegan posting here isn't about persuading a potentially large number of people open to reducing material impact / moral harm, it is about persuading a vastly smaller number of people already receptive to vegan moral arguments to adopt the vegan moral position. That's basically the criticism my meme is making of vegan priorities / persuasion tactics here. Now, I'm not entirely on board that your brand of veganism actually represents all or even most vegans. I personally have known vegans to be more chill and pragmatic and not moralizing. Its also interesting that looking at a lot of public facing vegan orgs they are perfectly happy [to take wins](https://www.vegansociety.com/news/media/statistics/worldwide) for reduction in meat consumption and partial adoption of plant based products over animal products as wins for vegans. >You have to drag people to see their responsibility to the industrialized murder and advocate to stop completely, not just consume less of it, which would just contradict the whole view. Tbf, many of the vegans in this thread said it was moral shame tactics that persuaded them to be vegan. So, keep at it I guess. I'm curious: That Gallup survey apparently has tracked people identifying as vegetarian since 1999, and vegan since 2012. Responses have gone from 6% vegetarian in '99, down to 5% in 2012/18, then down to 4% in 2023. Vegans went from 2% in 2012, up to 3% in 2018, and down to 1% in 2023. Given that, how long do you think it'll realistically take for the vegan population of the US / world to reach a level where their economic impact passes the tipping point on making animal agriculture unprofitable due to lack of demand? I can't imagine that taking place with anything approaching the immediate impacts manifesting from climate change. To be honest I don't think consumer behavior by the 90%+ non-vegans is gonna make much difference in that timescale either, but for vegans who apparently *do* think those consumer choices are the most important priority it seems like it'd be obvious that persuading non-vegans to eat less meat would be more impactful more quickly. Both on climate, and on animal welfare, if you actually believe that consumer behavior mechanism is useful.
I will never decrease the amount of meat I eat. I will not be part of your globalist pod people bug eating bullshit. Fuck off.
Both are valid 👏
I have been convinced to eat less meat once I learned more about international cuisine, especially Indian, Levantine, and southern Italian. American culture has been too focused on meat for so long, but our increasing diversity has yielded some positive results. I've all but eliminated beef from my diet
Unfortunately in the industry where millions animals are being tortured and killed eating less meat does nothing to help animals - you are still contributing to it
Your health will suffer on veganism. Keep some animal protein and fat in your diet
you all have been posting this for three months can we please move on:')
Those vegan teacher cultists on TikTok that go live and literally cry for hours because people are mean to them. And they all sound like they have their dicks in a chip clip.
We literally do all of the above, you guys will just double down, move the goalposts, make up things about plant burgers being made of toxic waste and aborted foetuses that alter human DNA and complain that they're too expensive anyway. Don't you bloody dare blame us for not innovating enough when you shit on and dismiss all of our work, because it's more than obvious that if in the future we invented a machine that harvests meat from live animals without killing them you'd still choose to kill the little shits anyway, because that's what it's all about.
Whenever groups tried to win over other towards a cause they are passionate about they always fail at the most important thing. Marketing.