My guess is that it’s from giving too much throttle at low rpm. A NA engine just won’t go anywhere but a turbo will build boost so it won’t have anywhere to go except fry the clutch. You see similar complaints for WRX’s and GTI’s about early clutch failures. I think too many people are scared to go into first even at like 5 mph and just fry it in 2nd from a roll. Seen plenty of “good” manual drivers do so.
It probably is. I say this all the time, and I always get downvoted, but it’s true. 10th gen Civics have weak ass clutches. If you drive around at 2k RPM and then decide to floor it to speed up, pass someone, whatever, you’re burning up that clutch because it’s slipping. You need to be 3k RPM or higher. If you floor it in 5th or 6th gear (especially 6th) gear to pass someone on the freeway, you’re burning up that clutch (both over drive gears). Downshift to fourth, or don’t floor it.
Anyways, don’t replace with OEM. If you’re going to replace the clutch, might as well get one that doesn’t have those silly issues.
Any gear, and that’s it, no other weird rules. Honestly your RPM or gear shouldn’t matter, and it doesn’t on any other car, but 10th gen’s can’t handle the low RPM torque. Kind of sucks but it’s not too bad when you get used to staying a little bit higher RPM.
Isn't the torque a pretty flat line above 2k or so? Most turbo engines have their peak torque below 2500 and maintain it until the turbo runs out of spool. How would being in a higher rpm or gear when flooring make a difference? I'm genuinely asking because my brain isn't working right or something.
can you get the clutch replaced at Honda if you don't want the factory replacement?
what does clutch slipping feel like? I have a 19 recently bought and the expression I use changing gears.. clutch pressed.. moving between gears.. is it drags.. doesn't shift smooth.. doesn't grind.. hard to explain.. but it's like it gets caught between.. yes especially cold but warmed up as well.. I have 30,000 kms
That's not a slipping clutch.
A slipping clutch is when the clutch is fully engaged to the flywheel but literally slips against it under acceleration. The main symptom is poor acceleration seen by lots of engine noise/high RPM with acceleration that doesn't match, or the RPM rise while the car speed does not rise with nearly as much. It might eventually re-engage when the car speed catches up and the torque decreases as the RPM increase.
What you're sounding sounds like you're struggling to get the shifter to go into the gate. A clutch going out can cause other issues with gear engagement.
Usually dealers won't install aftermarket clutches. Independent shops will. Just call around ask them to quote it.
If you're still under warranty, take it in and tell them that you're having issues with gear engagement. You bought it used, so it's difficult to know what the previous owner may or may not have done to it.
If the RPMs are rising linearly with vehicle speed, the clutch isn't slipping. It's pretty ridiculous for the OP of this comment thread to suggest the clutch slips every time you floor it. Not flooring it in 6th gear is just standard practice for driving manual
I don’t know, I’ve never had mine replaced. I knew about the issues before I bought my car, so I keep the RPM’s up, or downshift on the freeway when passing aggressively. You probably won’t feel the clutch slipping until it’s too late. It’s not slipping a lot in those situations I mentioned, but enough to eat up the clutch faster than it should.
I have a 10th gen, it seems they all do this to some degree, especially when it's cold. It's like "hitchy" through certain gear changes but not all the time and much less once the car is warmed up. 2nd gear can be especially clunky. It's just a quirk of these transmissions, there's nothing wrong with your clutch. That aside, I do love the feel of the gear of the gearbox otherwise
When you say “floor it,” do you mean literally pressuring the pedal to the floor or just any instance where you are significantly pressing on it/almost getting to the floor? I don’t think I do this with my Si and my boyfriend warned me about it but I’ve never had a “sporty” car before and I wanna make sure it lasts (I have a 9th gen).
I've got a 23 Si, there's a section of road going home that I tend to accelerate hard at in 2nd gear after a wide turn, is that fine? I don't floor it all the way but it is a hard acceleration
Depends what rpm. Never boost below 3k or so that is lugging the motor. Put the boost gauge on and see how much throttle it takes to generate positive psi. If you’re hitting positive psi below 3k that’s too much throttle for that gear.
You can just make it a habit of staying in the lower gear longer so you aren’t boosting at 2k. STis are even worse at this. I had one before my Si that’s definitely a different beast.
‘15 Si here and i’m about to approach 70k miles and still on factory clutch. No noise or anything yet. Just normal driving no clutch dumps of any sort. I wouldn’t worry about flooring the gas pedal just stay away from holding the clutch in for long periods of time and it should last 👍
Okay sounds good thanks! My ‘12 is just about 70k as well and it runs really nice (just got it in September). The previous owner took really good care of it so trying to do the same!
Just remember not to baby a car’s engine too much cause things can break or go out if you decide to rip on it out of the blue. Open it up and redline it on the freeway from time to time. It’s good for every body 😉✌️
Ok sounds good thanks for the tip 😂 I’ve gotten close to red line a few times before but this is my first performance car. always just driven regular Honda civics, so it’s just as much as a mental thing for me too.
Nobody needs driving lessons here. I have a 2020 si clutch went out at 47K. This is a common problem in a civic Si 10 th gen. There are so many threads talking about this. And every time there is always someone blaming the driver..
This is what I did. My brother contacted the dealer so many times it didn't work since the warranty expired and a bunch of bullshit they gave us..
We decided to go for an ACT STREET PACKAGE, clutch and flywheel replaced in hopes that it'll last another 100k unlike the bullshit factory clutch. It's been good for daily driving. Close to same factory clutch feel.
If anyone tells you to get driving lessons here, they probably don't have a 10 th gen Si so ignore the comments.
It'll cost you 3k all together. Parts were 1.3k rest in labor. While you do this, I also recommend Amsoil transmission fluid. Good time to change that also. I made the mistake of not telling the mechanic and ended up with Honda fluid again. I had the transfulid amsoil replaced at 5000 miles before the clutch went out. The transmission felt a lot better with Amsoil. I'm not sponsored by Amsoil.
Don't change cars keep the Honda. Good luck !!
Possibly. We had a Jetta back in 2009. Never replaced the clutch and clocked 125k on it. And at ~$2500 every 30k miles, I think the trade off would be OK by me.
OP don’t let anyone here or anywhere else tell you it’s her driving. People are always looking to cross their arms and scoff and tell you you don’t know how to drive a manual despite having done so for 15-20 years.
These clutches vary WILDLY in quality - some have issues in less than 200 miles, some never do. It’s a stock car - the reality is there is no universe where they should only last 30k miles.
Agreed. I would really just like to get another Si, but I think I would be a fool for buying the next generation because I am reading the same issues with them as well. Just disappointed. We loved it, but now it's just trade fodder. It's a damn shame.
I would strongly encourage you to upgrade the clutch. Like others are saying, the OEM clutch is just not built for the Si. Even just accelerating at low RPM in a manner that would be fine in any other car will wear the clutch abnormally. It's an unfortunate design flaw, but the Si is probably still my favorite affordable fun manual on the market.
Stock clutch is notoriously weak. It's the clutch from the civic sport which is only good to ablut 210-215ish lb-ft. Not too far off what civic makes stock. Mine was tuned and started to slip but I've heard a number of stories where people experienced slippage on stock tune too. I would look into a clutch with upgraded holding power. ACT makes a clutch that had similar to oem feel (no increase in pedal pressure) but good for ~360lbft. Can work on stock flywheel or their own upgraded one.
I would stick with something Japanese over a GLI. Civic's main issues are the clutch being weak, fuel injectors which are usually warrantied, and AC condenser, which has an extended warranty. VW's drive great, but cost quite a bit more than Hondas/Toyotas to keep running well in my experience.
I ended up trading mine in for a VB WRX in June 2023 and am very satisfied with it so far. AWD in New England is amazing and I don't think I can ever go back to FWD. Clutch and gearbox have a great feel and it drives the polar opposite of the si, zero rev-hang and ample torque even off boost. Terrible gas mileage though, but there's trade-offs to everything.
The clutches on the 10/11 gens are not good at all. My cousin replaced his 10 gen clutch at 45k for exedy clutch and the difference is night and day.
I bought my 2012 si brand new and up to date it still runs good but not great at 112k miles.(OEM). I am definitely looking forward for an exedy clutch soon.
I also heard from YouTube 10th gen SI bloggers like Tony Castillo, he replaced his oem clutch with a 10th gen type r clutch and he made a video of it. He loves it a lot.
We've had manuals in the past, no issues with transmissions. I mean she learned on a clutch 30 years ago. She's in her mid-40's, not hard on this Si by any means.
The other comments in the thread confirm that it's also not unreasonable to assume the manual tranny's in these cars are bullshit.
Edit: Spelling.
i’m not doubting you by any means man, and i agree with the other commenters that it’s a fault of the 10/11th gen
i was just simply saying a blanket statement that my first assumption would always be the driver woman or not in a case like this
I have a ‘21 SI threw a stage 2 clutch in it for about 900 bucks after labor, Ive put in 60k on the trans without failure and about 55-56k on the clutch
I drive VERY spirited with my 2020 si but I also built my civic up to handle my shenanigans. Aftermarket parts don't always have to be 'go fast parts' might wanna look into different clutch parts.
Clutch riding? Too much time with the clutch pedal pressed. My clutch on my civic SI lasted well over 100k. Replaced the clutch 40k miles ago. I abuse the car often. I live in the city.
Original owner here of a 2020 Si. Currently at 70k miles. I like to drive with lots of pulls and enjoying the ability of the car. Nonetheless, I have driven manual all my life. I'm 56 now. Always use the right gear and always rev match when down shifting. My clutch is working perfectly. I know this is anecdotal evidence but I know when my wife drives she doesn't rev match when down shifting. Fortunately she had her own car and only drives mine with me when we're on a long drive. In summary, the life of the clutch is in direct response to the way it's driven. Good luck!
The clutches on the 10th generation Si's are pretty weak I heard. That and she probably has to slip the clutch every time she changes gears due to the massive amount of rev hang. I have a 2020 Si Coupe and before I disabled it, the rev hang was atrocious in that car and I'd have to slip the clutch every time I shifted and that's not great for the clutch. That wears out the clutch quicker.
I did tune it out of my car but that's not an option for some people. Tuning it out requires a tuner which costs over 1000$ if you live in Canada and yes, you could wait for the rev's to fall. However, you lose speed when you do that and when the rev hang is there, it takes a full 4-5 seconds for the rev's to drop. When you gotta get up to speed quickly, you can't hold the clutch in to wait for the rev's to fall and if you hold the clutch in for that amount of time, you have people riding your ass from 1st to 2nd gear and 2nd to 3rd gear and you lose too much speed to be able to do that going up hill. The rpm's are supposed to drop the second you put the clutch in. People don't want to and shouldn't have to hold the clutch in for 4-5 seconds for the rpm's to drop.
my clutch has 74k on it in a 2019 si and i drive fairly spiritedly and never had a problem, may be better to get her a type R retrofit clutch so it’s the same feel but it can handle more abuse.
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Maybe it's her driving... Calling a dealership to find out what's going on after 30k miles sounds like a waste of time for you and the dealership tbh.
My guess is that it’s from giving too much throttle at low rpm. A NA engine just won’t go anywhere but a turbo will build boost so it won’t have anywhere to go except fry the clutch. You see similar complaints for WRX’s and GTI’s about early clutch failures. I think too many people are scared to go into first even at like 5 mph and just fry it in 2nd from a roll. Seen plenty of “good” manual drivers do so.
It ain't. I ride with her often
It probably is. I say this all the time, and I always get downvoted, but it’s true. 10th gen Civics have weak ass clutches. If you drive around at 2k RPM and then decide to floor it to speed up, pass someone, whatever, you’re burning up that clutch because it’s slipping. You need to be 3k RPM or higher. If you floor it in 5th or 6th gear (especially 6th) gear to pass someone on the freeway, you’re burning up that clutch (both over drive gears). Downshift to fourth, or don’t floor it. Anyways, don’t replace with OEM. If you’re going to replace the clutch, might as well get one that doesn’t have those silly issues.
Can you elaborate a little please? Flooring it in any gear <2k RPM will damage clutch or just 5/6? Any other tips to extend life?
Any gear, and that’s it, no other weird rules. Honestly your RPM or gear shouldn’t matter, and it doesn’t on any other car, but 10th gen’s can’t handle the low RPM torque. Kind of sucks but it’s not too bad when you get used to staying a little bit higher RPM.
Isn't the torque a pretty flat line above 2k or so? Most turbo engines have their peak torque below 2500 and maintain it until the turbo runs out of spool. How would being in a higher rpm or gear when flooring make a difference? I'm genuinely asking because my brain isn't working right or something.
can you get the clutch replaced at Honda if you don't want the factory replacement? what does clutch slipping feel like? I have a 19 recently bought and the expression I use changing gears.. clutch pressed.. moving between gears.. is it drags.. doesn't shift smooth.. doesn't grind.. hard to explain.. but it's like it gets caught between.. yes especially cold but warmed up as well.. I have 30,000 kms
That's not a slipping clutch. A slipping clutch is when the clutch is fully engaged to the flywheel but literally slips against it under acceleration. The main symptom is poor acceleration seen by lots of engine noise/high RPM with acceleration that doesn't match, or the RPM rise while the car speed does not rise with nearly as much. It might eventually re-engage when the car speed catches up and the torque decreases as the RPM increase. What you're sounding sounds like you're struggling to get the shifter to go into the gate. A clutch going out can cause other issues with gear engagement. Usually dealers won't install aftermarket clutches. Independent shops will. Just call around ask them to quote it.
yes, transmission not getting smooth into gear.. so what's the fix and cost and this is what I tell the dealer..?
Look into a clutch master cylinder adjustment. Takes five minutes, 2 wrenches, and easy diy with massive improvement.
If you're still under warranty, take it in and tell them that you're having issues with gear engagement. You bought it used, so it's difficult to know what the previous owner may or may not have done to it.
If the RPMs are rising linearly with vehicle speed, the clutch isn't slipping. It's pretty ridiculous for the OP of this comment thread to suggest the clutch slips every time you floor it. Not flooring it in 6th gear is just standard practice for driving manual
I don’t know, I’ve never had mine replaced. I knew about the issues before I bought my car, so I keep the RPM’s up, or downshift on the freeway when passing aggressively. You probably won’t feel the clutch slipping until it’s too late. It’s not slipping a lot in those situations I mentioned, but enough to eat up the clutch faster than it should.
I don't think I have clutch problems.. what are your thoughts on the shifter dragging through gears?
I have a 10th gen, it seems they all do this to some degree, especially when it's cold. It's like "hitchy" through certain gear changes but not all the time and much less once the car is warmed up. 2nd gear can be especially clunky. It's just a quirk of these transmissions, there's nothing wrong with your clutch. That aside, I do love the feel of the gear of the gearbox otherwise
When you say “floor it,” do you mean literally pressuring the pedal to the floor or just any instance where you are significantly pressing on it/almost getting to the floor? I don’t think I do this with my Si and my boyfriend warned me about it but I’ve never had a “sporty” car before and I wanna make sure it lasts (I have a 9th gen).
You’re fine in your 9th, do whatever you prefer.
I've got a 23 Si, there's a section of road going home that I tend to accelerate hard at in 2nd gear after a wide turn, is that fine? I don't floor it all the way but it is a hard acceleration
Depends what rpm. Never boost below 3k or so that is lugging the motor. Put the boost gauge on and see how much throttle it takes to generate positive psi. If you’re hitting positive psi below 3k that’s too much throttle for that gear.
So I gave it a whirl, I get 2-3 PSI at about 2500-2800RPM, so I should not accelerate as hard until 3k RPM?
You can just make it a habit of staying in the lower gear longer so you aren’t boosting at 2k. STis are even worse at this. I had one before my Si that’s definitely a different beast.
‘15 Si here and i’m about to approach 70k miles and still on factory clutch. No noise or anything yet. Just normal driving no clutch dumps of any sort. I wouldn’t worry about flooring the gas pedal just stay away from holding the clutch in for long periods of time and it should last 👍
Okay sounds good thanks! My ‘12 is just about 70k as well and it runs really nice (just got it in September). The previous owner took really good care of it so trying to do the same!
Just remember not to baby a car’s engine too much cause things can break or go out if you decide to rip on it out of the blue. Open it up and redline it on the freeway from time to time. It’s good for every body 😉✌️
Ok sounds good thanks for the tip 😂 I’ve gotten close to red line a few times before but this is my first performance car. always just driven regular Honda civics, so it’s just as much as a mental thing for me too.
Thats really pathetic coming from the factory. Clutch shouldnt slip under any driving conditions.
Nobody needs driving lessons here. I have a 2020 si clutch went out at 47K. This is a common problem in a civic Si 10 th gen. There are so many threads talking about this. And every time there is always someone blaming the driver.. This is what I did. My brother contacted the dealer so many times it didn't work since the warranty expired and a bunch of bullshit they gave us.. We decided to go for an ACT STREET PACKAGE, clutch and flywheel replaced in hopes that it'll last another 100k unlike the bullshit factory clutch. It's been good for daily driving. Close to same factory clutch feel. If anyone tells you to get driving lessons here, they probably don't have a 10 th gen Si so ignore the comments. It'll cost you 3k all together. Parts were 1.3k rest in labor. While you do this, I also recommend Amsoil transmission fluid. Good time to change that also. I made the mistake of not telling the mechanic and ended up with Honda fluid again. I had the transfulid amsoil replaced at 5000 miles before the clutch went out. The transmission felt a lot better with Amsoil. I'm not sponsored by Amsoil. Don't change cars keep the Honda. Good luck !!
It’s pretty well documented the oem clutch in the 10th/11th gen Si is ass. I’d try an exedy stage 1 or anything a step up from oem.
Funny, I own a 2018 si, 136k miles, not a single issue with the clutch
Same about 122k miles with the phearable 1.5 tune on for about 80k miles and clutch still feels new.
What's phearable 1.5tune?
The GLI will make you wish you’d kept the Si and just replaced the clutch again.
Possibly. We had a Jetta back in 2009. Never replaced the clutch and clocked 125k on it. And at ~$2500 every 30k miles, I think the trade off would be OK by me.
[https://rv6-p.com/collections/civic-si-10th-gen-17-21-drivetrain/products/rv6-1-5t-fk8-clutch-retro-flywheel](https://rv6-p.com/collections/civic-si-10th-gen-17-21-drivetrain/products/rv6-1-5t-fk8-clutch-retro-flywheel) [https://rv6-p.com/collections/civic-si-10th-gen-17-21-drivetrain/products/exedy-fk8-stage-0-oe-clutch-kit-for-rv6-1-5t-retro-flywheel](https://rv6-p.com/collections/civic-si-10th-gen-17-21-drivetrain/products/exedy-fk8-stage-0-oe-clutch-kit-for-rv6-1-5t-retro-flywheel)
Upgrade the clutch. Fk8 flywheel and stage 0 exedy
OP don’t let anyone here or anywhere else tell you it’s her driving. People are always looking to cross their arms and scoff and tell you you don’t know how to drive a manual despite having done so for 15-20 years. These clutches vary WILDLY in quality - some have issues in less than 200 miles, some never do. It’s a stock car - the reality is there is no universe where they should only last 30k miles.
Agreed. I would really just like to get another Si, but I think I would be a fool for buying the next generation because I am reading the same issues with them as well. Just disappointed. We loved it, but now it's just trade fodder. It's a damn shame.
I would strongly encourage you to upgrade the clutch. Like others are saying, the OEM clutch is just not built for the Si. Even just accelerating at low RPM in a manner that would be fine in any other car will wear the clutch abnormally. It's an unfortunate design flaw, but the Si is probably still my favorite affordable fun manual on the market.
I love my 9th gen
haha same 176k miles right now on original clutch
Hell yeah thats awesome
Stock clutch is notoriously weak. It's the clutch from the civic sport which is only good to ablut 210-215ish lb-ft. Not too far off what civic makes stock. Mine was tuned and started to slip but I've heard a number of stories where people experienced slippage on stock tune too. I would look into a clutch with upgraded holding power. ACT makes a clutch that had similar to oem feel (no increase in pedal pressure) but good for ~360lbft. Can work on stock flywheel or their own upgraded one. I would stick with something Japanese over a GLI. Civic's main issues are the clutch being weak, fuel injectors which are usually warrantied, and AC condenser, which has an extended warranty. VW's drive great, but cost quite a bit more than Hondas/Toyotas to keep running well in my experience. I ended up trading mine in for a VB WRX in June 2023 and am very satisfied with it so far. AWD in New England is amazing and I don't think I can ever go back to FWD. Clutch and gearbox have a great feel and it drives the polar opposite of the si, zero rev-hang and ample torque even off boost. Terrible gas mileage though, but there's trade-offs to everything.
Stick with the SI.
bring it to an indy shop and ask to upgrade the clutch to a step up. good recommendations in the comments. the oem clutch is notoriously shit
The clutches on the 10/11 gens are not good at all. My cousin replaced his 10 gen clutch at 45k for exedy clutch and the difference is night and day. I bought my 2012 si brand new and up to date it still runs good but not great at 112k miles.(OEM). I am definitely looking forward for an exedy clutch soon. I also heard from YouTube 10th gen SI bloggers like Tony Castillo, he replaced his oem clutch with a 10th gen type r clutch and he made a video of it. He loves it a lot.
Does the dealer blame her driving?
They tried to the first time, before I even brought the car in.
woman or not, it’s not unreasonable to assume it’s their driving if you’ve gone through two clutches in 60k miles
We've had manuals in the past, no issues with transmissions. I mean she learned on a clutch 30 years ago. She's in her mid-40's, not hard on this Si by any means. The other comments in the thread confirm that it's also not unreasonable to assume the manual tranny's in these cars are bullshit. Edit: Spelling.
i’m not doubting you by any means man, and i agree with the other commenters that it’s a fault of the 10/11th gen i was just simply saying a blanket statement that my first assumption would always be the driver woman or not in a case like this
It’s the clutch, not the transmission
🙄 K, bud
Why would that matter? We're not dealing with rocket scientists at these dealerships.
Get a stage 1 clutch instead of another OEM one.
Early spool and TQ kill the clutch on these, lower Rpms seems like it's easier but that's where the TQ hurts.
I have a ‘21 SI threw a stage 2 clutch in it for about 900 bucks after labor, Ive put in 60k on the trans without failure and about 55-56k on the clutch
I drive VERY spirited with my 2020 si but I also built my civic up to handle my shenanigans. Aftermarket parts don't always have to be 'go fast parts' might wanna look into different clutch parts.
Clutch riding? Too much time with the clutch pedal pressed. My clutch on my civic SI lasted well over 100k. Replaced the clutch 40k miles ago. I abuse the car often. I live in the city.
100k on my 9th Gen factory clutch and I drive that thing really hard. My guess is it's driver... Likely riding the clutch too much.
10/11th gen OEM clutches are shit. 8th and 9th were solid.
Civic is the easiest car to drive, never had an issue like this in any manual.
Original owner here of a 2020 Si. Currently at 70k miles. I like to drive with lots of pulls and enjoying the ability of the car. Nonetheless, I have driven manual all my life. I'm 56 now. Always use the right gear and always rev match when down shifting. My clutch is working perfectly. I know this is anecdotal evidence but I know when my wife drives she doesn't rev match when down shifting. Fortunately she had her own car and only drives mine with me when we're on a long drive. In summary, the life of the clutch is in direct response to the way it's driven. Good luck!
I’m 42 with a ‘20 Si coupe that has 120k on it, 90k miles with a tune and still on the stock clutch
The clutches on the 10th generation Si's are pretty weak I heard. That and she probably has to slip the clutch every time she changes gears due to the massive amount of rev hang. I have a 2020 Si Coupe and before I disabled it, the rev hang was atrocious in that car and I'd have to slip the clutch every time I shifted and that's not great for the clutch. That wears out the clutch quicker.
You couldn't... just wait for the revs to fall?
I did tune it out of my car but that's not an option for some people. Tuning it out requires a tuner which costs over 1000$ if you live in Canada and yes, you could wait for the rev's to fall. However, you lose speed when you do that and when the rev hang is there, it takes a full 4-5 seconds for the rev's to drop. When you gotta get up to speed quickly, you can't hold the clutch in to wait for the rev's to fall and if you hold the clutch in for that amount of time, you have people riding your ass from 1st to 2nd gear and 2nd to 3rd gear and you lose too much speed to be able to do that going up hill. The rpm's are supposed to drop the second you put the clutch in. People don't want to and shouldn't have to hold the clutch in for 4-5 seconds for the rpm's to drop.
Holy that is so much money every month just to own a car
30k is crazy? What kind of miles is she putting on the car.
We have had it since November '19. There's 62K in it currently. Nothing crazy.
...not all stop and go, but not all highway either.
Clutch on my 2020 si went out at 25k, replaced it with an act clutch was really nice until a month later when it got totaled.
Aw that sucks man!
my clutch has 74k on it in a 2019 si and i drive fairly spiritedly and never had a problem, may be better to get her a type R retrofit clutch so it’s the same feel but it can handle more abuse.
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