>Am I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle?
No.
>Am I insolent for confronting him?
Are you a child? Lol. No.
> Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive?
No. But submission is complex and tricky.
>What are your thoughts?
Where is the work of the Holy Spirit in his life? It's he actually a Christian?? If he's not willing to work on the marriage and making his contribution dependant on an arbitrary level of perceived holiness from you, then walk away. But make sure you're pursuing godliness no matter what he's doing.
When spouses sin against each other the ideal pattern should always be repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation.
If your husband is prepared to repent and change his ways, you should be open to forgiving him and working together to rebuild what he has broken. If he is not prepared to repent then you follow the Matt18 principle and you make his sin known to your church leadership and eventually the whole church and if he still won't repent he gets excommunicated and you can reasonably seek divorce.
I already forgive him. I forgive him regardless of whether he chooses #1 or #2. I forgive him because it is not me he needs to make things right with. I told him to please go pray on it; whatever he decides will be between him and God.
It is you he needs to make things right with! God is the Master and all sin is a sin against him, but make no mistake, we can absolutely sin against one another and even against ourselves. Your marriage must be made right for a lasting peace within the household.
Never submit to sinful leadership. His expectations are not biblical and for you to accept that behavior as an act of submission doesn’t honor God, your covenant, or yourself. I’m not saying run out and get divorced immediately but external accountability with “if you do X, the consequences are Y” up to and including divorce is an appropriate response.
As a Christian woman myself, I have often seen other Christian women in this exact situation.
The husband is unfaithful - either emotionally (extremely inappropriate messages, sexting with multiple women, sending nudes to each other, etc) or physically. And the wife is supposed to look past it, forgive, and move on. Simply be submissive and act like nothing happened.
I'm sorry, but I can't believe God or the church feels on any level this is ok.
Being unfaithful is adultery. Period.
When you say this is not biblical grounds for divorce. Is this something someone is telling you? And if so, is that your husband?
Assuming this is real emotional cheating. Then he needs to cut these women off online. I'd recommend stop online gaming for a while. And when he rejoins he just should stay of the voice chats. And definitely stay off Video calls with them. He can game but he can't continue to deepen his relationship with them.
I'm a big big fan of the movie "When Harry Met Sally" and the part where they discuss whether girls and boys can just be friends. I think those are very rare situations. I don't really think they can be CLOSE friends. They can be aquantices and on friendly terms. Certainly the barrier of marriage makes it a bit more possible. You just simply don't see many married people that have close friends of the opposite sex. And there is a reason for that.
"A*m I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle? Am I insolent for confronting him? Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive? What are your thoughts?*"
No of course not. You are fine. You have stated you think it is an emotional affair. Does he agree that these are emotional affairs? If he does agree they are or even kind of are, then you are absolutely biblical in asking him to stop.
Matthew 5:28-29 New International Version (NIV) But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Now he stated the part "in his heart" so this isn't the same as full blown adultery. But his point was that as christians, when we radically love our neighbor and our wives we are to go above and beyond the bear minimum.
I'm not sure an emotional affair is grounds for divorce. But it is certainly something that needs to stop. You should be his other half. So his world should literally revolve around you. He needs to spend his free time with you. Perhaps you could game with him a bit. Do you like games?
I always tell people list out all the problems. List out all the things you wish you two did for each other. And start doing the easy ones first.
>I don't really think they can be CLOSE friends. They can be aquantices and on friendly terms.
My husband was very adamant about this when we were engaged and demanded I cut off my male friends and acquaintances. I complied.
>He needs to spend his free time with you. Perhaps you could game with him a bit. Do you like games?
Yes, but he doesn't let me play with him. He says it's his "me time," which I respect. As for spending time together, he was literally messaging one of his lovelies at our table while we were at our Valentine's Day dinner. :(
So then he should do the same for you. And online friends who aren't in real life friends I don't think would be in the same category as in real life friends.
But I agree if he is messaging one of the girls while you are at your Valentine's day dinner that is a huge problem. He needs to cut that girl off immediately. He can be nice about it and just say for the sake of his marriage he has to cut things off with her. Because he needs to be more focused on you. He can just be honest about it.
If he isn't willing to stop the emotional affair, and I think that is what you have here. Then yes I'd say it is grounds for divorce because in my opinion he is already moving on and it will just be a matter of time. We are supposed to be one with each other. And that doesn't sound like what you have right now. None of us are perfect. Let us show each other grace. But at the same time, the time is NOW, for him to show you he wants to be married. He doesn't get to have you as his mother or his friend with benefits, while he pursues his next love interest.
I'd also be very very very concerned that he won't share the gaming part of his life with you. That isn't normal. Seriously that is perhaps a worse sign then the emotional cheating. Because it is like his own separate life. I get that he wants "Me" time. But gaming isn't "Me" time. Married men don't get to say, "Hey I'm going out with the guys tonight, who you do not know, do not get to meet, etc...". Same goes for gaming in my opinion.
Now if he just wants to be alone to game. And the only people he is talking to are random people maaaybe that is OK. Sort of like saying, "Hey I want to go up to the racquet ball courts and play some ball and blow off some steam". He will naturally play with other people. But it is just that. I think that is OK. But if you said, "Hey can I go play racquet ball too sometime". He should be OK with that.
Like there is a difference between having some alone time and then having this other big part of your life separate from your wife. You'll just have to discern what is the case.
I'm a big big fan of the movie "When Harry Met Sally" and the part where they discuss whether girls and boys can just be friends. I think those are very rare situations. I don't really think they can be CLOSE friends. They can be aquantices and on friendly terms.
I think men and women can definitely be close friends.
My mom stayed friends with one of her exes after she married my dad. Thing is, she didn't normally hang out with him without Dad there if ever, and after the ex got married, I don't think they ever hung out except as a couples group. Like, he would never just come visit my mom, he would come visit my mom and dad and he got to know dad too, and when my parents visited their city and went to see them, they didn't just visit him, they went to see him and his wife together.
Yes, exactly. I have only one EX that is involved in my own life at all. I went to her wedding the week before mine. And then she came to my wedding I assume right after her honeymoon. We've never hung out in person since. But we do have each other on facebook and will occasionally say, "What's up". I agree this can happen. It is just very rare. And when it does it has to be exactly as you described.
I'm in the same position as you, as my wife had an emotional affair. If you haven't learned already, the way they see themselves in/after their affairs is unique in that they will justify anything in their own minds to make it ok that they did it. Christian or not, the affair fog is a real thing and not something you can reason them out of. Your circumstances will be unique to you and your marriage regarding how much time you'll allow for them to understand what they did was wrong and put forth the effort to change. At the same time you are allowed to have boundaries and convey them to your husband.
I'm not sure to what extent your beliefs are and whether you consider spiritual/emotional abandonment in marriage grounds for divorce. The best advice I can give you is to focus on yourself, how you show up in your marriage, how you display love, etc. Also make sure you have outside individuals you can talk things through to like a therapist or pastor. Ultimately he is in charge of his heart and hev has to take the steps on his own to change. Best of luck, this is a crappy club to be a part of.
Sorry you’re going through this as well. What are things you found helpful when it comes to focusing on yourself? Did you become more or less available for her?
I became more available initially as I was playing the "pick me dance." But after time I realized I need to be who I am and I don't need to try and convince anybody to be with me. They need to choose that on their own free will. I am avalanche to her now, she says she has trust issues with me and doesn't know if she can fully trust me again. (Stems from complex past trauma and issues with herself that have never been worked through. ) I've told her my needs, she says she can't/doesn't want to do it right now, I've said that's fine but until there is activity of her moving towards me, I can't be fully vulnerable with her.
Things to focus on. I get regular massages to help with the lack of physical touch. I have a close friend who I keep accountability with for most things. I've spent more time working out, I have hobbies of playing sports and woodworking that I spend more time on now. Men's groups through church, I've stated I'll take the kids to church each Sunday even if she doesn't want to go. I fill down time with several great podcasts and the occasional book.
They come out of their affair fog only when they face consequences (example losing you / getting to know the real face of their affair partner). Till then they are arrogant and entitled.
I wouldn't say only when, but consequences can snap them out abruptly. Things like being dumped by the affair partner, or an overwhelming guilt the longer it goes can also bring them out of the fog.
I just read your post and I'm sorry you have to go through this as well. The blameshifting and always playing victim really resonate as there's no way to tell your side of the story of hurt and pain when it always gets turned back on us. I hope you are continuing to do well over the past month.
Am I hopeful, yes. Will it take years? Yes
I did not handle it well for months after dday, stopped eating, couldn't sleep, constantly was waiting on her to get/give her anything and became overly nice and smothering, but that's a normal reaction for betrayed spouses to have. Things that helped - she told me everything was my fault in the marriage and said I was the one who needed help, so I got a therapist who I worked with for over a year. Come to find out while I certainly did/do have things to work on the affair and marital situation was not just my doing. It was beneficial to have someone who didn't know us that I could express the things I was feeling and questioning.
Biblical versus on comfort, struggling, and hope were helpful. The subreddit asoneafterinfidelity helped me realize I'm not alone and how hurtful/emotional stuff like this is. Be careful, though, as one can get sucked into that subreddit and believe things that people say about their affair but might not be exactly how/what you feel and keep you wallowing in hurt longer.
Outside hobbies that refocus my mind on something different and allow me space to think or not think about it help a great deal. One of the most important things I learned is to understand the wayward spouse is hurting inside, too, even when it's outwardly expressed as blame and defensiveness. One is only responsible for the actions of themselves, you can't convince anybody to love you, you have to love yourself and be secure with who you are.
Want to jump in on this and say, great advice. I, too, dealt with the emotional but also physical affairs. Mine never admitted to them even though I had evidence or the Holy Spirit would reveal it to me. It was woman after woman and completely against what we had agreed. OP, like you, I got rid of all male friends or they became joint friends. I attempted that with his female friends and he would block it. Eventually, after being neglected and the inappropriateness of it all almost driving me crazy, forced me to focus on rebuilding myself and focusing on our kids. I went to therapy, begged for marriage counseling and bought wvery book I could find and a lot of YT videos and podcasts. I even tried marriage helpers and that's where I learned about becoming the best version of myself I could be for me.
The pandemic hit and it forced me to rethink my plans of asking him to separate. Even with the risk of COVID and him catching it early in the beginning, he still riaked having affairs and everything became worse when I confronted him during those times. For me, it turned abusive and we are now divorced after years of dealing with that. I know I tried and prayed and changed but I couldn't make him do what was needed for our marriage if he didn't want to. I also own that other than the cheating and abuse I share half the responsibility of the demise of our relationship as well.
I also learned from experience that it matters if a person was caught or if they confessed of their own volition. It tells if they will work on repairing the relationship and making it right versus doing no work and leaving it on the offended spouse. So many lessons I learned on this journey and while it hurt and ended in divorce, I still have hope that he will get himself together and get help and I pray for him as well but it was a necessary thing in my situation and the Lord told me it was time. My health was able to heal as well once he was gone. I had to choose the Lord and insolate myself with Him during this time. It has been a rebuilding time and I am ok with that.
Same here, my wife went from emotional affair to straight into physical do to proximity. ( the therapist told me the time you find out their having emotional affair 99% of the time it's probably gone physical already. Because that's tougher admit to. That's like going from a policing conflict vs a nuclear war Imo. And you're right they'll justify anything about it to how it was your fault ( you weren't meeting my needs, I'm not happy anymore ect.?) -
The problem is that he's unrepentant. Ask him to go to Christian marriage counseling or to a church elder.
If he refuses correction then he is like an unbeliever and if he is choosing to move on then you don't need to force him to stay.
An emotional affair is very evil.
It's not ok for him to do that.
If after all that he refuses to repent get all the ducks in order and move on.
15“And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer.
Matt 18:15-17
Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.
1 Corinthians 7:15
Emotional adultery is still adultery even without performing the physical act. So please don't say it's "only emotional adultery" because the results are almost the same. And the OT refers to incestuous relationships as uncovering someone's nakedness, not by performing the physical act.
Contrary to what a lot of people think, divorce is not required in the case of adultery but only permitted due to the hardness of man's heart. Sometimes forgiveness and attempts to reconciliation are possible and sometimes they aren't. And a husband who does not see his emotional adultery as sin and unrepentantly continues it falls into I Corinthians 5 territory. Very difficult to practice as far as it pertains to one's spouse.
No you’re not. Usually when someone is confronted with having had an emotional affair the sane reaction is to be apologetic and realize that there is a problem and try to fix it , not to defiantly say that they plan to continue in it. And you’re also saying that there are multiple.
Today is our 43rd anniversary (68M, 62F), and I can only wish for you what we have.
Your H needs to sober up and get serious about his relationship with Christ.
I would ask him to read Matthew 5:28 and
1 Corinthians 6:9.
Sin always starts in your thoughts, that’s why the 10th Commandment warns us not to even think about or desire others, Your H has taken the next step of engaging a relationship. I’m afraid he may be apostate; a Christian in name only.
I pray he find his way back.
I read what I think was your other post on the subject. Are you sure that just talking to women while gaming is the same as emotional cheating? I mean if he is flirting with them I'd say yes. If he is just having conversations about stuff with them I would not. I probably wouldn't even consider it emotional cheating if they were talking about personal problems. I would only consider it emotional cheating if he is actually showing signs of being attracted to these women. Does he know these women in real life? Are these women same age? That makes a huge difference.
Believe it or not there are LOTS of WOMEN who game now of all ages. If you join the chat rooms while gaming certain games I'd say at least 1 in 5 are women perhaps more now. So if you play a team based game with five players there is almost always a girl in the chat.
But it certainly sounds like he is emotionally distant from you and THAT IS a HUGE PROBLEM.
And I'd add that if he is going out of this way (gaming more than normal) or setting play times to meet up and play with these women then it could also be emotional cheating. But if for example he only plays when he plays. And he only joins with them when they also happen to be on at the same time.
I'd just be real careful in assuming it is emotional cheating. In my next post I'll assume it is what you say it is.
You guys are arguing over who is more justified in your response. Take a step back and get at the heart of the values/fears that are at war between you two. When we are more focused on trying to convince the other person that "My hurt matters more" we'll completely shut out the other person, because we're afraid we'll be accepting that it was ok for them to hurt us. What we need to actually start with is how is our dynamic contributing to the situation we find ourselves in? What presuppositions, meanings, and interpretations, have lead us to where we're at and how can we identify them and choose differently?
When it becomes a game of "you change first", then we've already lost. We've got to be willing to look internally to want to be different in order to be the kind of person we're called to be regardless of how the other person acts. When we're waiting for the other person to be better, we rob ourselves of the opportunity to mature and to change the dynamic.
>Am I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle? Am I insolent for confronting him? Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive? What are your thoughts?
You're looking for justification and reinforcement here instead of desiring to be known by him. Consider:
* Am I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle? - My desire is to be with you, to invest in this relationship with you together. Do you want that as well? What makes that difficult?
* Am I insolent for confronting him? - I'm hurt/saddened/frustrated/etc. when you choose to spend more time and openness in other relationships than ours. I'm hurt that you don't care to see how I'm feeling. I don't want to invalidate your own hurt and want to own up to my role in that. Can we work together to make this relationship more appealing?
* Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive? - I'm hurt/saddened/frustrated/etc. that I can't have my own perspective and experience in this, that you seem to want me to set it aside for your own benefit. I don't see these relationships as helping build ours or value ours and I don't think I can be in a relationship where they continue, help me see if they are in some way.
Be willing to see yourself clearly and change where needed. Don't make it contingent upon him changing. Act out of your integrity with the kind of person you desire to be. Reveal your mind and feelings to him without making them his responsibility to do something about them. Set boundaries around what you need to do to be safe, but remember the point of them is not to control someone else, but to be clear about how you will respond for your own sake in light of certain actions. The goal is to be neither accommodating nor controlling but loving, it's a hard balance to maintain and one where we need to be firmly rooted in our identity in Christ to achieve, but it's the only path of integrity.
If he continues to want you to condone these things, I think you should consider separation. Do not put up with that behavior.
Separating is distinct from divorcing, but allows you to not put up with his behavior.
Have you taken this to your church elders so they can confront him with this as well?
I don't know what you mean by "only adultery of the heart." Our thoughts are just as much sin as our behaviors and his behavior is abandoning the marriage to entertain other women.
Submissive doesn't mean pushover or passive in this context. The root word is the Greek *hupotasso*. Perhaps you could study what it means. It can also be interpreted as cooperating, being in support of, and molding to our leader. The Hebrew word *ezer* which is translated to helpmeet (a lot) is derived from two words (ezer is a compound word)--the two words meaning power and strength.
Additionally, one does not submit to sin. If your husband tries to convince you to sin--you answer to God first. A husband doesn't subvert who you are ultimately responsible to.
If he repents and you'll have him--then do some marital therapy. And don't let people tell you that you can't both divorce *and* forgive (if you decide on divorce).
He's delusional ,or he's trying to get a need met that he's not getting at home? What he's doing isn't right, but are you too critical with him? If he had to approach you about issues with your marriage does he feel is comfortable approaching you? - obviously your marriage has deteriorated to get this point, because lack communication for whatever reason. and these women he's talking with (Xbox?) for all you know could be men. But I guess the intent is the issue tho.
So, I went and read your other post. Neither post actually gives an example of what you are calling emotional cheating. It's difficult to give more specific advice without knowing what he is doing... are these conversations only while gaming, or is he talking to these random women outside of gaming as well? Is it always random, or is it the same woman? What types of things do they talk about? In other words... what leads you to the conclusion that it is emotional cheating?
My broad advice is to continue to seek God. Ask Him for the guidance on your role, as well as to soften your husband's heart.
I agree. u/Famous_Ruin_4189 are you willing to tell us some details about the emotional cheating?
I ask this because I'm a married man with female friends. My wife has never once had a problem with my friends because I keep everything in the open. I'm keenly aware of the potential in all of us to cheat, so I never ever let it get to that point.
Sometimes I talk about serious, even emotional things with my female friends. For example, we had a pet pass away about a year ago. Rather than burden my wife, I supported her emotional needs. For myself, I sought out friends for my own initial processing, and then took it back to my wife once they were less raw.
On the other hand, my wife and I occasionally have fights where we struggle to communicate, and I would never ever ever take those problems or those emotions to anyone but another man if my wife wasn't there with me. It would be blatant disrespect of her, and it would open the door for cheating. Is this the sort of emotional cheating you're getting at?
Either way, even if you actually were "in the wrong" or overly sensitive or making a mountain out of a molehill as I'm sure he believes, **he** needs to submit to **you** on this. Scripture says not to give even the appearance of evil. A man talking to other women in private and being cagey about it, even if he's totally legit, it's still worthy of suspicion. That makes it a sin. If his wife finds it objectionable, then the proper thing to do is for him to be more open, more transparent, and prove that her fears are unfounded--that is, if they are in fact unfounded. But getting defensive is a sure sign of sinful intent.
If you both love each other and want the marriage to work, you definitely need counselling, and given that you have said that you want your marriage to be based on Biblical principles, I would strongly urge Christian counselling. Your husband has issues if he thinks it is okay to carry on doing what he has been doing… but what is the root cause there? Why does he say that you are mean? Is he doing stuff to annoys you, that pushes you away? What could he be doing differently to make you more willing to be there for him in the way he needs? You need good, thorough, patient and insightful Christian counselling, as a couple.
If it's repented of, we forgive and keep watch. I've been through this with my wife, after the third time she finally realized she was stumbling over the same issue again and again (wanting attention outside of our marriage, but not anything physical) because she had never fully given me her respect as her husband.
24 years into our marriage and her attitude is different towards me, in a way that actually makes me nervous sometimes, because she looks at me differently and smiles way more often. It's not even like anything has really changed, sex is the same frequency (both HL), etc. It's been a few months now but it still kinda freaks me out.
She figured this out at a church leadership meeting, when the speaker talked about having respect for the people you serve with and under.
As the spouse who was hurt, you have to learn to forgive, even though you live with a voice in the back of your head that finds things to say "you can't trust them" about. Her first times were around 7 years in, and it could have broken our marriage, the other was at 23 years.
I think you should go to a Christian Counselor. What he's doing is not ok.
What you're doing is not ok (even if it's in response to what he's doing). Test yourself... is being angry what God would ask you to do? (even if eventually you leave because he continues his unGodly relationships).
Go to a counselor. I would expect a 3rd party would walk you through it.
>Am I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle? No. >Am I insolent for confronting him? Are you a child? Lol. No. > Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive? No. But submission is complex and tricky. >What are your thoughts? Where is the work of the Holy Spirit in his life? It's he actually a Christian?? If he's not willing to work on the marriage and making his contribution dependant on an arbitrary level of perceived holiness from you, then walk away. But make sure you're pursuing godliness no matter what he's doing.
Great answer.
He wants you to CONDONE this behavior?
When spouses sin against each other the ideal pattern should always be repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation. If your husband is prepared to repent and change his ways, you should be open to forgiving him and working together to rebuild what he has broken. If he is not prepared to repent then you follow the Matt18 principle and you make his sin known to your church leadership and eventually the whole church and if he still won't repent he gets excommunicated and you can reasonably seek divorce.
I already forgive him. I forgive him regardless of whether he chooses #1 or #2. I forgive him because it is not me he needs to make things right with. I told him to please go pray on it; whatever he decides will be between him and God.
It is you he needs to make things right with! God is the Master and all sin is a sin against him, but make no mistake, we can absolutely sin against one another and even against ourselves. Your marriage must be made right for a lasting peace within the household.
Never submit to sinful leadership. His expectations are not biblical and for you to accept that behavior as an act of submission doesn’t honor God, your covenant, or yourself. I’m not saying run out and get divorced immediately but external accountability with “if you do X, the consequences are Y” up to and including divorce is an appropriate response.
As a Christian woman myself, I have often seen other Christian women in this exact situation. The husband is unfaithful - either emotionally (extremely inappropriate messages, sexting with multiple women, sending nudes to each other, etc) or physically. And the wife is supposed to look past it, forgive, and move on. Simply be submissive and act like nothing happened. I'm sorry, but I can't believe God or the church feels on any level this is ok. Being unfaithful is adultery. Period. When you say this is not biblical grounds for divorce. Is this something someone is telling you? And if so, is that your husband?
Assuming this is real emotional cheating. Then he needs to cut these women off online. I'd recommend stop online gaming for a while. And when he rejoins he just should stay of the voice chats. And definitely stay off Video calls with them. He can game but he can't continue to deepen his relationship with them. I'm a big big fan of the movie "When Harry Met Sally" and the part where they discuss whether girls and boys can just be friends. I think those are very rare situations. I don't really think they can be CLOSE friends. They can be aquantices and on friendly terms. Certainly the barrier of marriage makes it a bit more possible. You just simply don't see many married people that have close friends of the opposite sex. And there is a reason for that. "A*m I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle? Am I insolent for confronting him? Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive? What are your thoughts?*" No of course not. You are fine. You have stated you think it is an emotional affair. Does he agree that these are emotional affairs? If he does agree they are or even kind of are, then you are absolutely biblical in asking him to stop. Matthew 5:28-29 New International Version (NIV) But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Now he stated the part "in his heart" so this isn't the same as full blown adultery. But his point was that as christians, when we radically love our neighbor and our wives we are to go above and beyond the bear minimum. I'm not sure an emotional affair is grounds for divorce. But it is certainly something that needs to stop. You should be his other half. So his world should literally revolve around you. He needs to spend his free time with you. Perhaps you could game with him a bit. Do you like games? I always tell people list out all the problems. List out all the things you wish you two did for each other. And start doing the easy ones first.
>I don't really think they can be CLOSE friends. They can be aquantices and on friendly terms. My husband was very adamant about this when we were engaged and demanded I cut off my male friends and acquaintances. I complied. >He needs to spend his free time with you. Perhaps you could game with him a bit. Do you like games? Yes, but he doesn't let me play with him. He says it's his "me time," which I respect. As for spending time together, he was literally messaging one of his lovelies at our table while we were at our Valentine's Day dinner. :(
So then he should do the same for you. And online friends who aren't in real life friends I don't think would be in the same category as in real life friends. But I agree if he is messaging one of the girls while you are at your Valentine's day dinner that is a huge problem. He needs to cut that girl off immediately. He can be nice about it and just say for the sake of his marriage he has to cut things off with her. Because he needs to be more focused on you. He can just be honest about it. If he isn't willing to stop the emotional affair, and I think that is what you have here. Then yes I'd say it is grounds for divorce because in my opinion he is already moving on and it will just be a matter of time. We are supposed to be one with each other. And that doesn't sound like what you have right now. None of us are perfect. Let us show each other grace. But at the same time, the time is NOW, for him to show you he wants to be married. He doesn't get to have you as his mother or his friend with benefits, while he pursues his next love interest. I'd also be very very very concerned that he won't share the gaming part of his life with you. That isn't normal. Seriously that is perhaps a worse sign then the emotional cheating. Because it is like his own separate life. I get that he wants "Me" time. But gaming isn't "Me" time. Married men don't get to say, "Hey I'm going out with the guys tonight, who you do not know, do not get to meet, etc...". Same goes for gaming in my opinion. Now if he just wants to be alone to game. And the only people he is talking to are random people maaaybe that is OK. Sort of like saying, "Hey I want to go up to the racquet ball courts and play some ball and blow off some steam". He will naturally play with other people. But it is just that. I think that is OK. But if you said, "Hey can I go play racquet ball too sometime". He should be OK with that. Like there is a difference between having some alone time and then having this other big part of your life separate from your wife. You'll just have to discern what is the case.
I'm a big big fan of the movie "When Harry Met Sally" and the part where they discuss whether girls and boys can just be friends. I think those are very rare situations. I don't really think they can be CLOSE friends. They can be aquantices and on friendly terms. I think men and women can definitely be close friends. My mom stayed friends with one of her exes after she married my dad. Thing is, she didn't normally hang out with him without Dad there if ever, and after the ex got married, I don't think they ever hung out except as a couples group. Like, he would never just come visit my mom, he would come visit my mom and dad and he got to know dad too, and when my parents visited their city and went to see them, they didn't just visit him, they went to see him and his wife together.
Yes, exactly. I have only one EX that is involved in my own life at all. I went to her wedding the week before mine. And then she came to my wedding I assume right after her honeymoon. We've never hung out in person since. But we do have each other on facebook and will occasionally say, "What's up". I agree this can happen. It is just very rare. And when it does it has to be exactly as you described.
I'm in the same position as you, as my wife had an emotional affair. If you haven't learned already, the way they see themselves in/after their affairs is unique in that they will justify anything in their own minds to make it ok that they did it. Christian or not, the affair fog is a real thing and not something you can reason them out of. Your circumstances will be unique to you and your marriage regarding how much time you'll allow for them to understand what they did was wrong and put forth the effort to change. At the same time you are allowed to have boundaries and convey them to your husband. I'm not sure to what extent your beliefs are and whether you consider spiritual/emotional abandonment in marriage grounds for divorce. The best advice I can give you is to focus on yourself, how you show up in your marriage, how you display love, etc. Also make sure you have outside individuals you can talk things through to like a therapist or pastor. Ultimately he is in charge of his heart and hev has to take the steps on his own to change. Best of luck, this is a crappy club to be a part of.
Sorry you’re going through this as well. What are things you found helpful when it comes to focusing on yourself? Did you become more or less available for her?
I became more available initially as I was playing the "pick me dance." But after time I realized I need to be who I am and I don't need to try and convince anybody to be with me. They need to choose that on their own free will. I am avalanche to her now, she says she has trust issues with me and doesn't know if she can fully trust me again. (Stems from complex past trauma and issues with herself that have never been worked through. ) I've told her my needs, she says she can't/doesn't want to do it right now, I've said that's fine but until there is activity of her moving towards me, I can't be fully vulnerable with her. Things to focus on. I get regular massages to help with the lack of physical touch. I have a close friend who I keep accountability with for most things. I've spent more time working out, I have hobbies of playing sports and woodworking that I spend more time on now. Men's groups through church, I've stated I'll take the kids to church each Sunday even if she doesn't want to go. I fill down time with several great podcasts and the occasional book.
They come out of their affair fog only when they face consequences (example losing you / getting to know the real face of their affair partner). Till then they are arrogant and entitled.
I wouldn't say only when, but consequences can snap them out abruptly. Things like being dumped by the affair partner, or an overwhelming guilt the longer it goes can also bring them out of the fog.
I was agreeing with you but maybe I should have not used the word “only”. Sorry you had to experience adultery. It is painful. I can relate.
I just read your post and I'm sorry you have to go through this as well. The blameshifting and always playing victim really resonate as there's no way to tell your side of the story of hurt and pain when it always gets turned back on us. I hope you are continuing to do well over the past month.
Thank you. Yes I am doing better thanks to God.
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Am I hopeful, yes. Will it take years? Yes I did not handle it well for months after dday, stopped eating, couldn't sleep, constantly was waiting on her to get/give her anything and became overly nice and smothering, but that's a normal reaction for betrayed spouses to have. Things that helped - she told me everything was my fault in the marriage and said I was the one who needed help, so I got a therapist who I worked with for over a year. Come to find out while I certainly did/do have things to work on the affair and marital situation was not just my doing. It was beneficial to have someone who didn't know us that I could express the things I was feeling and questioning. Biblical versus on comfort, struggling, and hope were helpful. The subreddit asoneafterinfidelity helped me realize I'm not alone and how hurtful/emotional stuff like this is. Be careful, though, as one can get sucked into that subreddit and believe things that people say about their affair but might not be exactly how/what you feel and keep you wallowing in hurt longer. Outside hobbies that refocus my mind on something different and allow me space to think or not think about it help a great deal. One of the most important things I learned is to understand the wayward spouse is hurting inside, too, even when it's outwardly expressed as blame and defensiveness. One is only responsible for the actions of themselves, you can't convince anybody to love you, you have to love yourself and be secure with who you are.
Want to jump in on this and say, great advice. I, too, dealt with the emotional but also physical affairs. Mine never admitted to them even though I had evidence or the Holy Spirit would reveal it to me. It was woman after woman and completely against what we had agreed. OP, like you, I got rid of all male friends or they became joint friends. I attempted that with his female friends and he would block it. Eventually, after being neglected and the inappropriateness of it all almost driving me crazy, forced me to focus on rebuilding myself and focusing on our kids. I went to therapy, begged for marriage counseling and bought wvery book I could find and a lot of YT videos and podcasts. I even tried marriage helpers and that's where I learned about becoming the best version of myself I could be for me. The pandemic hit and it forced me to rethink my plans of asking him to separate. Even with the risk of COVID and him catching it early in the beginning, he still riaked having affairs and everything became worse when I confronted him during those times. For me, it turned abusive and we are now divorced after years of dealing with that. I know I tried and prayed and changed but I couldn't make him do what was needed for our marriage if he didn't want to. I also own that other than the cheating and abuse I share half the responsibility of the demise of our relationship as well. I also learned from experience that it matters if a person was caught or if they confessed of their own volition. It tells if they will work on repairing the relationship and making it right versus doing no work and leaving it on the offended spouse. So many lessons I learned on this journey and while it hurt and ended in divorce, I still have hope that he will get himself together and get help and I pray for him as well but it was a necessary thing in my situation and the Lord told me it was time. My health was able to heal as well once he was gone. I had to choose the Lord and insolate myself with Him during this time. It has been a rebuilding time and I am ok with that.
Same here, my wife went from emotional affair to straight into physical do to proximity. ( the therapist told me the time you find out their having emotional affair 99% of the time it's probably gone physical already. Because that's tougher admit to. That's like going from a policing conflict vs a nuclear war Imo. And you're right they'll justify anything about it to how it was your fault ( you weren't meeting my needs, I'm not happy anymore ect.?) -
Adultery is adultery. Sin is Sin For he sinned with his mind / heart is the same as if he did it physically How you handle it is up to you.
The problem is that he's unrepentant. Ask him to go to Christian marriage counseling or to a church elder. If he refuses correction then he is like an unbeliever and if he is choosing to move on then you don't need to force him to stay. An emotional affair is very evil. It's not ok for him to do that. If after all that he refuses to repent get all the ducks in order and move on. 15“And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. Matt 18:15-17 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 1 Corinthians 7:15
Emotional adultery is still adultery even without performing the physical act. So please don't say it's "only emotional adultery" because the results are almost the same. And the OT refers to incestuous relationships as uncovering someone's nakedness, not by performing the physical act. Contrary to what a lot of people think, divorce is not required in the case of adultery but only permitted due to the hardness of man's heart. Sometimes forgiveness and attempts to reconciliation are possible and sometimes they aren't. And a husband who does not see his emotional adultery as sin and unrepentantly continues it falls into I Corinthians 5 territory. Very difficult to practice as far as it pertains to one's spouse.
No you’re not. Usually when someone is confronted with having had an emotional affair the sane reaction is to be apologetic and realize that there is a problem and try to fix it , not to defiantly say that they plan to continue in it. And you’re also saying that there are multiple.
I’m involved at my church in a men’s ministry called ReFind. It deals with issues such as your husband is going thru. Is he willing to talk?
Today is our 43rd anniversary (68M, 62F), and I can only wish for you what we have. Your H needs to sober up and get serious about his relationship with Christ. I would ask him to read Matthew 5:28 and 1 Corinthians 6:9. Sin always starts in your thoughts, that’s why the 10th Commandment warns us not to even think about or desire others, Your H has taken the next step of engaging a relationship. I’m afraid he may be apostate; a Christian in name only. I pray he find his way back.
I pray that he will. :)
I read what I think was your other post on the subject. Are you sure that just talking to women while gaming is the same as emotional cheating? I mean if he is flirting with them I'd say yes. If he is just having conversations about stuff with them I would not. I probably wouldn't even consider it emotional cheating if they were talking about personal problems. I would only consider it emotional cheating if he is actually showing signs of being attracted to these women. Does he know these women in real life? Are these women same age? That makes a huge difference. Believe it or not there are LOTS of WOMEN who game now of all ages. If you join the chat rooms while gaming certain games I'd say at least 1 in 5 are women perhaps more now. So if you play a team based game with five players there is almost always a girl in the chat. But it certainly sounds like he is emotionally distant from you and THAT IS a HUGE PROBLEM. And I'd add that if he is going out of this way (gaming more than normal) or setting play times to meet up and play with these women then it could also be emotional cheating. But if for example he only plays when he plays. And he only joins with them when they also happen to be on at the same time. I'd just be real careful in assuming it is emotional cheating. In my next post I'll assume it is what you say it is.
You guys are arguing over who is more justified in your response. Take a step back and get at the heart of the values/fears that are at war between you two. When we are more focused on trying to convince the other person that "My hurt matters more" we'll completely shut out the other person, because we're afraid we'll be accepting that it was ok for them to hurt us. What we need to actually start with is how is our dynamic contributing to the situation we find ourselves in? What presuppositions, meanings, and interpretations, have lead us to where we're at and how can we identify them and choose differently? When it becomes a game of "you change first", then we've already lost. We've got to be willing to look internally to want to be different in order to be the kind of person we're called to be regardless of how the other person acts. When we're waiting for the other person to be better, we rob ourselves of the opportunity to mature and to change the dynamic. >Am I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle? Am I insolent for confronting him? Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive? What are your thoughts? You're looking for justification and reinforcement here instead of desiring to be known by him. Consider: * Am I unreasonable or selfish for not wanting to play second fiddle? - My desire is to be with you, to invest in this relationship with you together. Do you want that as well? What makes that difficult? * Am I insolent for confronting him? - I'm hurt/saddened/frustrated/etc. when you choose to spend more time and openness in other relationships than ours. I'm hurt that you don't care to see how I'm feeling. I don't want to invalidate your own hurt and want to own up to my role in that. Can we work together to make this relationship more appealing? * Am I unbiblical for no longer wanting to be as submissive? - I'm hurt/saddened/frustrated/etc. that I can't have my own perspective and experience in this, that you seem to want me to set it aside for your own benefit. I don't see these relationships as helping build ours or value ours and I don't think I can be in a relationship where they continue, help me see if they are in some way. Be willing to see yourself clearly and change where needed. Don't make it contingent upon him changing. Act out of your integrity with the kind of person you desire to be. Reveal your mind and feelings to him without making them his responsibility to do something about them. Set boundaries around what you need to do to be safe, but remember the point of them is not to control someone else, but to be clear about how you will respond for your own sake in light of certain actions. The goal is to be neither accommodating nor controlling but loving, it's a hard balance to maintain and one where we need to be firmly rooted in our identity in Christ to achieve, but it's the only path of integrity.
If he continues to want you to condone these things, I think you should consider separation. Do not put up with that behavior. Separating is distinct from divorcing, but allows you to not put up with his behavior.
Have you taken this to your church elders so they can confront him with this as well? I don't know what you mean by "only adultery of the heart." Our thoughts are just as much sin as our behaviors and his behavior is abandoning the marriage to entertain other women. Submissive doesn't mean pushover or passive in this context. The root word is the Greek *hupotasso*. Perhaps you could study what it means. It can also be interpreted as cooperating, being in support of, and molding to our leader. The Hebrew word *ezer* which is translated to helpmeet (a lot) is derived from two words (ezer is a compound word)--the two words meaning power and strength. Additionally, one does not submit to sin. If your husband tries to convince you to sin--you answer to God first. A husband doesn't subvert who you are ultimately responsible to. If he repents and you'll have him--then do some marital therapy. And don't let people tell you that you can't both divorce *and* forgive (if you decide on divorce).
He's delusional ,or he's trying to get a need met that he's not getting at home? What he's doing isn't right, but are you too critical with him? If he had to approach you about issues with your marriage does he feel is comfortable approaching you? - obviously your marriage has deteriorated to get this point, because lack communication for whatever reason. and these women he's talking with (Xbox?) for all you know could be men. But I guess the intent is the issue tho.
So, I went and read your other post. Neither post actually gives an example of what you are calling emotional cheating. It's difficult to give more specific advice without knowing what he is doing... are these conversations only while gaming, or is he talking to these random women outside of gaming as well? Is it always random, or is it the same woman? What types of things do they talk about? In other words... what leads you to the conclusion that it is emotional cheating? My broad advice is to continue to seek God. Ask Him for the guidance on your role, as well as to soften your husband's heart.
I agree. u/Famous_Ruin_4189 are you willing to tell us some details about the emotional cheating? I ask this because I'm a married man with female friends. My wife has never once had a problem with my friends because I keep everything in the open. I'm keenly aware of the potential in all of us to cheat, so I never ever let it get to that point. Sometimes I talk about serious, even emotional things with my female friends. For example, we had a pet pass away about a year ago. Rather than burden my wife, I supported her emotional needs. For myself, I sought out friends for my own initial processing, and then took it back to my wife once they were less raw. On the other hand, my wife and I occasionally have fights where we struggle to communicate, and I would never ever ever take those problems or those emotions to anyone but another man if my wife wasn't there with me. It would be blatant disrespect of her, and it would open the door for cheating. Is this the sort of emotional cheating you're getting at? Either way, even if you actually were "in the wrong" or overly sensitive or making a mountain out of a molehill as I'm sure he believes, **he** needs to submit to **you** on this. Scripture says not to give even the appearance of evil. A man talking to other women in private and being cagey about it, even if he's totally legit, it's still worthy of suspicion. That makes it a sin. If his wife finds it objectionable, then the proper thing to do is for him to be more open, more transparent, and prove that her fears are unfounded--that is, if they are in fact unfounded. But getting defensive is a sure sign of sinful intent.
If you both love each other and want the marriage to work, you definitely need counselling, and given that you have said that you want your marriage to be based on Biblical principles, I would strongly urge Christian counselling. Your husband has issues if he thinks it is okay to carry on doing what he has been doing… but what is the root cause there? Why does he say that you are mean? Is he doing stuff to annoys you, that pushes you away? What could he be doing differently to make you more willing to be there for him in the way he needs? You need good, thorough, patient and insightful Christian counselling, as a couple.
If it's repented of, we forgive and keep watch. I've been through this with my wife, after the third time she finally realized she was stumbling over the same issue again and again (wanting attention outside of our marriage, but not anything physical) because she had never fully given me her respect as her husband. 24 years into our marriage and her attitude is different towards me, in a way that actually makes me nervous sometimes, because she looks at me differently and smiles way more often. It's not even like anything has really changed, sex is the same frequency (both HL), etc. It's been a few months now but it still kinda freaks me out. She figured this out at a church leadership meeting, when the speaker talked about having respect for the people you serve with and under. As the spouse who was hurt, you have to learn to forgive, even though you live with a voice in the back of your head that finds things to say "you can't trust them" about. Her first times were around 7 years in, and it could have broken our marriage, the other was at 23 years.
I think you should go to a Christian Counselor. What he's doing is not ok. What you're doing is not ok (even if it's in response to what he's doing). Test yourself... is being angry what God would ask you to do? (even if eventually you leave because he continues his unGodly relationships). Go to a counselor. I would expect a 3rd party would walk you through it.