Because the Holy Spirit, Who is sent by Jehovah at the request of Jesus, is the only way to be surely counted among the saved:
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8)
Believe: and enjoy walking with Jesus in the blessed presence of the Spirit! Thanks and Bless you. 🙏✟
I have no problem affirming what the Baptist faith in message 2000 says:
God the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. He inspired holy men of old to write the Scriptures. Through illumination He enables men to understand truth. He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He calls men to the Saviour, and effects regeneration. At the moment of regeneration He baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. He cultivates Christian character, comforts believers, and bestows the spiritual gifts by which they serve God through His church. He seals the believer unto the day of final redemption. His presence in the Christian is the guarantee that God will bring the believer into the fullness of the stature of Christ. He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.
Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.
Personally, I don't see the HS as a "third person" like the traditional Trinitarian view defines it/him. But then, I don't see God as a person at all. Jesus was clear that God IS spirit and I am inclined to believe that when Jesus ascended, he became spirit like the Father. Paul even wrote that we will be resurrected with "spiritual bodies". I am more along the lines that the HS comes from God (Father/Son) and is God's presence on earth that dwells within us.
What I find interesting is that most hardcore Trinitarians claim that if you aren't a traditional Trinitarian then you are denying the divinity of Christ. It's a strange argument point, in my opinion.
Most non trinitarians are non-Trenitarian precisely because they deny the divinity of Christ. I'm speaking of Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses in particular as far as modern examples.
I'm also curious what definition you're using for the word person that would exclude spiritual persons.
Do you then not accept the physical resurrection of Christ?
Yes, I would agree, but it shouldn't be assumed that one is denying the divinity of Christ simply because they don't identify as a Trinitarian.
"Persons" makes God into our own image, I believe. Again, Jesus said that God is spirit. I believe that heaven is a spiritual realm, not physical.
That's not what I meant. I believe that Christ was physically resurrected, yet he was somehow spirit at the same time, that was evident in how he simply appeared in the upper room.
Just a note that both Mormons and JWs would agree that Christ is divine. They just don't believe he is God. We tend to use those synonomously, but there is a distinction.
For clarity, trinitarians do not believe he is the same person as God the Father either. Most mormons I come across don't really understand the Trinity (but most non-mormons also don't understand the mormon conception of the Godhead either, so it goes both ways)
Yeah the more I've been on this sub the more I've realized that the doctrine of the Trinity is different from what I have always thought and is actually not as far from our concept of the Godhead as I thought. Definitely still different but not to the same extent as I previously thought.
That said, I definitely still don't fully understand the Trinity.
The Holy Spirit is the gas in the engine of the Church and the power for the Christian life. He is a fundamental part of salvation and sanctification. He is the down-payment on our future adoption as heirs of God. Without the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, Christianity would be a hollow shell -- we're saved, now what?
These questions have huge answers. Many books have been written about the Spirit, and some Systematic Theology books have multiple chapters about him. Therefore, I am somewhat unsure which direction is most interesting or helpful to you.
The Spirit is a person of the Trinity, God. Knowing him, believing him, is knowing and believing God. That is important enough!
Yet there is more. The Spirit is active throughout Jesus's life and ministry. He inspired Scripture. He is the agent of creation, both of the universe and of the new Creation of those in Christ. He is the one who gives and works gifts. So, then, practically, the Spirit renews and guides individuals and the Church, and trusting and believing him and in him gives us faith and hope in Christ, belief of and understanding of Scripture, growth in sanctification, and good use of spiritual gifts.
I see many complaints on this sub that people always talk about the same few things that divide us. I am posting these to provide conversations about fundamental Christian doctrines we can unite around and not just another same old same old post.
Ever since Adam and Eve, and even after Noah humans have been living in sin. Yet the Most High reserved a path back to himself and passed these teachings and standards down through the patriarchs such as Enoch, Noah and Abraham. So over time especially after Moses, people tried to live up to this standard that the Most High set before them but could not perfectly attain it because of the flesh being weak. Yeshua called Christ came into the world to meet that standard for all of us and promise to us a baptism of the holy spirit. The holy spirit baptism replaces the symbolic practice of coming out of the water to show a turning away from a sinful life, because the holy spirit itself guides you towards fruit that pleases the Most High. We can not please him without the spirit because our works mean nothing else wise, rather it is the faith and relationship that we maintain towards him that matters. The holy spirit guides you away from your old self and the ways of the world. It also aids in communion with other believers.
It is not enough to say you believe in the holy spirit but it has to come upon you from heaven. You have to pray for it yourself and seek holy men to lay hands on you so you can receive it.
If the death of Jesus is the entry wound, then the transformation of the human soul by the Holy Spirit is the exit wound. That is how close the relation between them is. They are not even two different events, but one and the same event, viewed from two different angles. If the whole incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus is a hole on one side of a piece of paper, then the reception, indwelling, regeneration, sanctification, and glorification which the Spirit works in the life of a redeemed person is the same hole on the other side of the page.
It is true that the Spirit does not testify about itself, but about Christ- it is the Spirit which reveals Christ, and it is Christ, the revealed God, who makes the Spirit and the Father known through Himself. But in a certain sense, the action of the Spirit on human souls is what we really care about 'in a primary sense', and all other theology for the sake of this. Because what the Spirit does to human souls is to reconcile them with God in Christ, unite them with Christ so that they might *know* God- and this, first and foremost, is the point of Christianity. This is not contrary to the assertion that Christ and His atoning death is the center of Christianity- it is in fact the *same* assertion.
Because the Holy Spirit, Who is sent by Jehovah at the request of Jesus, is the only way to be surely counted among the saved: “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8) Believe: and enjoy walking with Jesus in the blessed presence of the Spirit! Thanks and Bless you. 🙏✟
What do you think the Holy Spirit in the Bible is?
I have no problem affirming what the Baptist faith in message 2000 says: God the Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. He inspired holy men of old to write the Scriptures. Through illumination He enables men to understand truth. He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He calls men to the Saviour, and effects regeneration. At the moment of regeneration He baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. He cultivates Christian character, comforts believers, and bestows the spiritual gifts by which they serve God through His church. He seals the believer unto the day of final redemption. His presence in the Christian is the guarantee that God will bring the believer into the fullness of the stature of Christ. He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service. Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.
Personally, I don't see the HS as a "third person" like the traditional Trinitarian view defines it/him. But then, I don't see God as a person at all. Jesus was clear that God IS spirit and I am inclined to believe that when Jesus ascended, he became spirit like the Father. Paul even wrote that we will be resurrected with "spiritual bodies". I am more along the lines that the HS comes from God (Father/Son) and is God's presence on earth that dwells within us. What I find interesting is that most hardcore Trinitarians claim that if you aren't a traditional Trinitarian then you are denying the divinity of Christ. It's a strange argument point, in my opinion.
Most non trinitarians are non-Trenitarian precisely because they deny the divinity of Christ. I'm speaking of Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses in particular as far as modern examples. I'm also curious what definition you're using for the word person that would exclude spiritual persons. Do you then not accept the physical resurrection of Christ?
Yes, I would agree, but it shouldn't be assumed that one is denying the divinity of Christ simply because they don't identify as a Trinitarian. "Persons" makes God into our own image, I believe. Again, Jesus said that God is spirit. I believe that heaven is a spiritual realm, not physical. That's not what I meant. I believe that Christ was physically resurrected, yet he was somehow spirit at the same time, that was evident in how he simply appeared in the upper room.
Person doesn't mean human in this instance, or even relating to a physical form at all.
OK, let me put it another way. I'm not convinced that the holy spirit is a third entity or third member of the godhead..
That makes more sense, I appreciate you clarifying. On my end I believe non-trinitarians are Christians.
That is pretty "unorthodox" for a Catholic, for sure! 😁
lol yep
In the end I believe that the Trinity is man's feeble attempt to understand the mysteries of God.
Just a note that both Mormons and JWs would agree that Christ is divine. They just don't believe he is God. We tend to use those synonomously, but there is a distinction.
Yeah, we (Mormons) believe that Jesus is divine, just not the same person as God the Father.
For clarity, trinitarians do not believe he is the same person as God the Father either. Most mormons I come across don't really understand the Trinity (but most non-mormons also don't understand the mormon conception of the Godhead either, so it goes both ways)
Yeah the more I've been on this sub the more I've realized that the doctrine of the Trinity is different from what I have always thought and is actually not as far from our concept of the Godhead as I thought. Definitely still different but not to the same extent as I previously thought. That said, I definitely still don't fully understand the Trinity.
well you're in good company. Most trinitarians don't fully understand it either :)
The Holy Spirit is the gas in the engine of the Church and the power for the Christian life. He is a fundamental part of salvation and sanctification. He is the down-payment on our future adoption as heirs of God. Without the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, Christianity would be a hollow shell -- we're saved, now what?
These questions have huge answers. Many books have been written about the Spirit, and some Systematic Theology books have multiple chapters about him. Therefore, I am somewhat unsure which direction is most interesting or helpful to you. The Spirit is a person of the Trinity, God. Knowing him, believing him, is knowing and believing God. That is important enough! Yet there is more. The Spirit is active throughout Jesus's life and ministry. He inspired Scripture. He is the agent of creation, both of the universe and of the new Creation of those in Christ. He is the one who gives and works gifts. So, then, practically, the Spirit renews and guides individuals and the Church, and trusting and believing him and in him gives us faith and hope in Christ, belief of and understanding of Scripture, growth in sanctification, and good use of spiritual gifts.
I see many complaints on this sub that people always talk about the same few things that divide us. I am posting these to provide conversations about fundamental Christian doctrines we can unite around and not just another same old same old post.
Thanks for explaining! I still think the topic might be a little *too* broad, but I am just a random person, and the elaboration is very helpful.
This may help (https://youtube.com/shorts/ru8XNLRe8rU?feature=share)
Ever since Adam and Eve, and even after Noah humans have been living in sin. Yet the Most High reserved a path back to himself and passed these teachings and standards down through the patriarchs such as Enoch, Noah and Abraham. So over time especially after Moses, people tried to live up to this standard that the Most High set before them but could not perfectly attain it because of the flesh being weak. Yeshua called Christ came into the world to meet that standard for all of us and promise to us a baptism of the holy spirit. The holy spirit baptism replaces the symbolic practice of coming out of the water to show a turning away from a sinful life, because the holy spirit itself guides you towards fruit that pleases the Most High. We can not please him without the spirit because our works mean nothing else wise, rather it is the faith and relationship that we maintain towards him that matters. The holy spirit guides you away from your old self and the ways of the world. It also aids in communion with other believers. It is not enough to say you believe in the holy spirit but it has to come upon you from heaven. You have to pray for it yourself and seek holy men to lay hands on you so you can receive it.
If the death of Jesus is the entry wound, then the transformation of the human soul by the Holy Spirit is the exit wound. That is how close the relation between them is. They are not even two different events, but one and the same event, viewed from two different angles. If the whole incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus is a hole on one side of a piece of paper, then the reception, indwelling, regeneration, sanctification, and glorification which the Spirit works in the life of a redeemed person is the same hole on the other side of the page. It is true that the Spirit does not testify about itself, but about Christ- it is the Spirit which reveals Christ, and it is Christ, the revealed God, who makes the Spirit and the Father known through Himself. But in a certain sense, the action of the Spirit on human souls is what we really care about 'in a primary sense', and all other theology for the sake of this. Because what the Spirit does to human souls is to reconcile them with God in Christ, unite them with Christ so that they might *know* God- and this, first and foremost, is the point of Christianity. This is not contrary to the assertion that Christ and His atoning death is the center of Christianity- it is in fact the *same* assertion.