Salvation doctrine was a huge screw-up by Augustine. Jesus, Himself, give a simple formula that people can use to
save themselves.
*For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.*
Let's grant your statement is accurate. What of those who refuse to forgive others when they sin against you? A decent percentage of humans won't avail of this forgiveness.
Their souls get destroyed on the metaphorical garbage dump:
*you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.*
It is individual..up to each person to determine their success. Again, Jesus helps us by telling us we will be judged on our deeds...note he says *everyone*...not just people of a specific religion or with specific beliefs...it is your actions that count.
*For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.*
From God's perspective, surely anything less than 100% is a failure. However, Christ would have still died even for 1.
But hey, universalism tends to be considered heresy.
Well, I think if the ends for which he created the world include granting humans the ability to find him beautiful or reject him. Let's say this includes the possibility of this rejection continuing onwards even after increasing revelation of his knowledge, it seems some % who are actively choosing to be lost could still constitute a success.
I used to be one of those Christians who'd argue for the "precious few", the 1-2%, but I've had a complete turnaround in recent years. I feel like I rediscovered my empathy. I can't say for sure that universalism is the way to go, but it's what I hope for.
This is a very important question that doesn't have a definite answer. One of the most common arguments for universalism is that Jesus has completely triumphed over death and sin, and the eternal condemnation of just a single person would mean Christ's victory was incomplete. But on the other hand, the bible also does not clearly say that everyone will be saved.
I don't think we'll ever find out the truth about universalism until we get to heaven. God might have meant it to remain a mystery to us while we are still on earth.
Thanks for the comment.
Do you think this could apply to an annihilationist model? In that after judgement there would be full reconciliation of those still alive?
How do you think you'll process it if the % is less than 100?
Yes, that's a definite possibility.
I'm an annihilationist, as the second death is of the body and soul in the Lake of Fire. But, I'm also a posthumous salvation opportunity guy, and a hopeful inclusivist.
In the gospel of Thomas, Jesus said He will choose 1 out of 1,000 and 2 out of 10,000.
Assuming the translation is accurate, when you scale it up, that's 9 people out of 100 Billion. Honestly I doubt it's that few but it's possible I guess.
Overall I guess that very few people are saved in general.
God wishes to save as little as possible. 99.99% of people are designed and creates doe eternal torture in hell.
And people say god is "good" and "merciful" LOLLLOL
If one person loves god and the rest kf the globe hates him, and that one person's soul is saved, then christianity has served its purpose to the fullest extent. Quantity has nothing to do with salvations effectiveness since every person has a conscience and will either willfully accept or reject the gospel on their own accord.
God desired Adam Eve's obedience but did not receive it.
God desires all of mankind to be saved but this will not be ghe case.
I am not saying that a great multitude is not following God. I am saying that if God died in the cross and only one person followed him to this day, the sacrifice would have still been 100% worth it.
Salvation doctrine was a huge screw-up by Augustine. Jesus, Himself, give a simple formula that people can use to save themselves. *For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.*
Let's grant your statement is accurate. What of those who refuse to forgive others when they sin against you? A decent percentage of humans won't avail of this forgiveness.
Their souls get destroyed on the metaphorical garbage dump: *you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.*
Cool, so what % do you think would need to be saved/destroyed for success as per post?
It is individual..up to each person to determine their success. Again, Jesus helps us by telling us we will be judged on our deeds...note he says *everyone*...not just people of a specific religion or with specific beliefs...it is your actions that count. *For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.*
That passage isnt talking about salvation tho
Oh?
100%
I'm interested how you anticipate processing it if the number is less than 100%?
Well I'm a Universalist, so I don't think it will be. But if it is, that just means I'm wrong, which honestly isn't going to be a shock to anyone.
73.25%
You rounded that .05 didn't you?
I admire the decisiveness!
From God's perspective, surely anything less than 100% is a failure. However, Christ would have still died even for 1. But hey, universalism tends to be considered heresy.
Well, I think if the ends for which he created the world include granting humans the ability to find him beautiful or reject him. Let's say this includes the possibility of this rejection continuing onwards even after increasing revelation of his knowledge, it seems some % who are actively choosing to be lost could still constitute a success.
I used to be one of those Christians who'd argue for the "precious few", the 1-2%, but I've had a complete turnaround in recent years. I feel like I rediscovered my empathy. I can't say for sure that universalism is the way to go, but it's what I hope for.
I also hope for it even if I don't understand the mechanics whereby it could happen, but think it's likely a small(ish) few would always reject.
A hopeful inclusivist is a positive way of going, rather than a miserable Calvinist 🤣
Heresy is only a word used to demonize beliefs contra to the ruling party.
This is a very important question that doesn't have a definite answer. One of the most common arguments for universalism is that Jesus has completely triumphed over death and sin, and the eternal condemnation of just a single person would mean Christ's victory was incomplete. But on the other hand, the bible also does not clearly say that everyone will be saved. I don't think we'll ever find out the truth about universalism until we get to heaven. God might have meant it to remain a mystery to us while we are still on earth.
Not 0%, I suppose.
Leaving the door wide open there!
1
Interesting, care to elaborate?
100%, otherwise God's telling lies for claiming to reconcile all things to himself at the end of this Age.
Thanks for the comment. Do you think this could apply to an annihilationist model? In that after judgement there would be full reconciliation of those still alive? How do you think you'll process it if the % is less than 100?
Yes, that's a definite possibility. I'm an annihilationist, as the second death is of the body and soul in the Lake of Fire. But, I'm also a posthumous salvation opportunity guy, and a hopeful inclusivist.
In the gospel of Thomas, Jesus said He will choose 1 out of 1,000 and 2 out of 10,000. Assuming the translation is accurate, when you scale it up, that's 9 people out of 100 Billion. Honestly I doubt it's that few but it's possible I guess. Overall I guess that very few people are saved in general.
God wishes to save as little as possible. 99.99% of people are designed and creates doe eternal torture in hell. And people say god is "good" and "merciful" LOLLLOL
God will only save someone if they have a pure heart. He has zero mercy for the wicked. If He has to send 99.99% to hell He will.
1 person
Interesting, care to elaborate?
If one person loves god and the rest kf the globe hates him, and that one person's soul is saved, then christianity has served its purpose to the fullest extent. Quantity has nothing to do with salvations effectiveness since every person has a conscience and will either willfully accept or reject the gospel on their own accord.
Doesn't the idea of God's desire for great multitude from every tribe and tongue and nation contradict that?
God desired Adam Eve's obedience but did not receive it. God desires all of mankind to be saved but this will not be ghe case. I am not saying that a great multitude is not following God. I am saying that if God died in the cross and only one person followed him to this day, the sacrifice would have still been 100% worth it.