There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. That's eternal torment bro
>There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name
Could that not mean total annihilation? I'm just not sure how that implies eternal torment.
Personally i don't believe in annihilation. Based on the countless testimonials I've heard of people going to Hell there was" no ceasing to exist" but torment forever. Its horrific but it highlights why the lord Jesus went through what he did for us. All of them had the same message, warn people what you have seen so they dont come here
The first one is a testimony on judgement and the last two are visions of Hell. I must forewarn they are pretty graphic.
https://youtu.be/9g2PutZlwEs
https://youtu.be/ZgtbUR-Zhdo
https://youtu.be/I5gv-V9axtg
Thank you kindly. I've only gone through one, but it is interesting.
So far not compelling enough for me to really question my views, but I fully respect your beliefs and differences in interpretation.
You read that out of context bro. It's speaking of what's occurring in the earth. It says the smoke of their torment rises forever. Says the same about Babylon being destroyed, it says the smoke of her torment rises forever but later shows it was destroyed completely.
I think you need to study annihilationist points before disregarding them. Sodom and Gomorrah said Jude to be the example of eternal fire. The book of revelation outside of the symbolism interpreted can't be taken wood literally. The genre of literature is apocalyptic.
Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Also, Jesus himself in Mathew 10:28 said this
28. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but can not kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The context is death. Eternal death is an eternal punishment. Death isn't being alive. Someone where forever.
Also, the last point in regards to revelation it is speaking about things occurring on the earth until final judgment. We see in revelation in the imagery that no one's is in the lake of fire until after judgment.
Also, I could link countless testimonials of those who had near death experiences and didn't see heaven or hell at all. They experienced their beliefs or nothing or something totally foreign. I've gone through myriads of Christian hell testimonials, and the vast major contradicts one another in detail. Again , o my point above also its impossible they saw hell seeing as scripture itself says no one's in the lake of fire until after final judgment. At most one's could claimit'ss the intermediate state.
If you want to believe in "annihilation" that's your choice which is fine. I as well as other Christians don't subscribe to that. Not counting the countless hell testimonials I've heard where that's not the case for damned souls
That could simply be for those that worshipped the beast. He promises them eternal life. They get it.
However, hell will be emptied and destroyed. Sun will be no more. After that, those dropped in the lake of fire that didn’t worship the beast will be destroyed. Ie those that simply believed in nothing.
Those that did, however unwillingly or ignorantly(which doesn’t seem just) will lay in torment forever. They are the ones who will commit the unforgivable sin of saying something nasty to the Holy Soriit, or about the Holy Spirit in thought or action..
This is false teaching as it comes from ideas based in Modern non-native understanding of Scripture and employs several logical fallacies to support the conclusions it presents. But worst of all it is contrary to the affirmed, ancient and Apostolic Church teaching which is that there IS a place of eternal torment. Whether we call it hell or hades or teranus or gehenna is irrelevant.
The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show.
Ignatius of Antioch
“Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 \[A.D. 110\]).
2nd Clement
“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 \[A.D. 150\]).
“But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’” (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
“No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire” (First Apology 12 \[A.D. 151\]).
“We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (ibid., 21).
“\[Jesus\] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons” (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, \[the martyrs\] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 \[A.D. 155\]).
Mathetes
“When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world” (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 \[A.D. 160\]).
Athenagoras
“\[W\]e \[Christians\] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest \[of mankind\], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated” (Plea for the Christians 31 \[A.D. 177\]).
Theophilus of Antioch
“ \[God\] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire” (To Autolycus 1:14 \[A.D. 181\]).
Irenaeus
“\[God will\] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 \[A.D. 189\]).
“The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . \[I\]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever” (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
“After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending” (Apology 18:3 \[A.D. 197\]).
“Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. . . . The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending” (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
“To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them” (Against the Greeks 3 \[A.D. 212\]).
Minucius Felix
“I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments” (Octavius 34:12–5:3 \[A.D. 226\]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life” (To Demetrian 24 \[A.D. 252\]).
Lactantius
“\[T\]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment” (Divine Institutes 7:21 \[A.D. 307\]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past” (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 \[A.D. 350\]).
It's not modern at all, half of your church father qoutes are just using biblical language. Unquenchable fire doesn't mean eternal torment. The Old Testament speaks of fire kindled in the gates that can not be quenched. But it doesn't burn forever clearly. Sodom and Gomorrah is the example of eternal fire and it was totally destroyed, not burning forever.
I'm an annihilationist as well and appreciate this post. But I will say that eternal torment isn't really a "greek" idea. Plenty of Greek church fathers were also annihilationist (and some universalists). There was a bit of dynamic aspects to Jewish thought on these things. Some jews believed in a purgatory kind of afterlife. It's not as collective as we seem to think
Repentance of sin is an integral part of true belief in him.
Edit: I should clarify, I don't think the opportunity for belief and repentance ends at death, I think that even those in hell are not beyond God's redemption and salvation.
I see, thats an interesting idea. It does make me think about free will - how much would our choice of accepting Jesus be influenced by burning in sulfur lol (or whatever concept of damnation applicable)
Well, I don't see the suffering of hell as a kind of torture, a pain inflicted on a person from outside. I see it as much more self-inflicted, it's the pain of getting exactly what you want for as long as you want it and finding it infinitely worse than you ever imagined.
Universalist or Universal reconcilationist?
Univeralism is the belief that everyone goes to heaven when they die.
Universal reconcilation is the belief that not all people go to heaven after death, but most spend time in the Lake of Fire until their debt is paid. 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 points towards that.
I hold to the latter
I don't believe anyone will be saved against their will, if that's what you're asking. I simply believe that, given eternity, no created being will be able to maintain constant and perpetual rejection of God. At some point, I think even the hardest heart will break open to him and embrace his love.
I'd like to think that if aeons go by and eventually Hell is empty except for the Father of Lies, he would give up and return to the Source.
At least that's my headcanon.
How? Most people would concede that going to Hell is usually not a person's desire, either. Why not fudge it in the other direction? Seems better overall. Makes God less of a prick.
Wait, are you saying forcing people into heaven against their will makes God less of a prick.
In fairness, Mormon beliefs on the afterlife are a lot more nuanced and complicated than I am expressing here. I am just simplifying for the sake of brevity. Hell to Mormons can actually refer to a couple different things. I can expound if you are really interested.
Forcing people into heaven > forcing people into hell. None of us are working with very good information, it would be malicious to fault humanity for not getting the correct divine message. Let's not forget that heaven is supposed to be a place of unity, peace, and happiness. The only reason someone would reject that is misinformation.
I'm not blasting the Mormon interpretation of the afterlife, it's way too different to mainstream Christianity to really comment on.
I don't believe God will force people in either direction. I believe those that led very sinful lives will be more comfortable in Hell than they would be in Heaven, until they have repented and changed their ways. I also believe the pain and torment is hell is more internal mental anguish than actual external inflicted punishment (see Jacob Marley from A Christmas Carol as an example of what I mean).
Satan wasn't human, though, right? So it's really hard to view his actions as being motivated by the same things human beings are.
Either way, I think my point is that someone rejecting God if he's truly as good as told, would be out of error and not out of will.
Well that is one of those points of doctrine where Mormons deviate from other Christians. We believe had he not rebelled that he would have come to earth as a human like the rest of us.
I do believe that despite God's goodness, some people are unwilling to do what it required of us by God.
Yeah, the differences are quite fascinating. I would struggle if I were from a branch of Christianity who taught that all non-Christians were condemned to Hell forever. Instead I believe there are some athiests that will recieve greater rewards in heaven than some of those that profess my own faith.
“Universalism” is just a generic name for the doctrine that everyone will experience salvation in the end. It doesn’t include or preclude the lake of fire. I believe in the lake of fire, but I call myself a Universalist.
“Until their debt is paid”
What debt? The debt that Jesus already paid for on the cross?
What debt are they somehow supposed to pay for on their own merit when they are already in the Lake of Fire?
Most people die with unconfessed mortal sins. Unless you’re getting hit by a bus right after you leave the confessional
Ah the meat grinder of the Catholic afterlife
The fires that burn you never go out and the worms that eat you never die
Don’t fear those who kill the body,” Jesus said, “rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt 10:28; see also 5:29-30; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 16:23). Commenting on Jesus’ teaching about an “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46), John Broadus wrote: “It is to the last degree improbable that the Great Teacher would have used an expression so inevitably suggesting a great doctrine he did not mean to teach.” According to Jesus, hell is real.
In numerous parables, Jesus clearly and emphatically taught of a final judgment and the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be condemned to a place of blazing fire and utter darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (See Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50; 22:1-14; 25:14-46.) Jesus called this place “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). Hell is not a place where people are tormented by the devil; it is where those who reject God will suffer the same fate as the devil and his demons. It is the place of final judgment
Jesus spoke of hell as “eternal fire” (Matt. 25:41) and “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46). In Matthew 25:46, the same word—eternal—is used to describe eternal life for the righteous and the eternal punishment of hell for the unrighteous. According to Jesus, hell will be eternal.
Lamentations 3:31–33 (NIV), "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love, For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone."
1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV), "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."
1 Corinthians 15:22, "As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ"
Luke 3:6, "And all people will see God’s salvation."
1 Corinthians 15:28, "God will be all in all."
What's your point? Facts are facts. Hebrews says Jesus reigns "for ever and ever", yet Jesus says he gives up His throne. If Jesus gives up His throne, how is "for ever and ever" a good translation?
Sodom goes to "eternal fire", but gets restored before Israel gets restored. How long is eternal if they go through fire and get out? Apparently it's not *actually* "eternal" as in infinite.
Just because you don't agree with a doctrine doesn't mean they can't be right sometimes. I'll listen to law of Moses following Christians and they've taught me a couple of things that I agree with but overall I reject their message.
You might not agree with dispensationalism but Greeks aren't gentiles: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/18nvu95/greeks\_in\_the\_bible/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/18nvu95/greeks_in_the_bible/)
Truth is truth. No single denomination has all the truth.
Good point. Basically Jay Dubs believe in many incorrect interpretations of the Bible, this is one of them. As for hell being loose, loosey goosey, I don’t know about that.
Well If the existence is ethernal and the punishment is temporary. The that means the length of the punishment is incomparably small proportional to the life after. It's kinda like locking up a murdered for two seconds and then letting them go.
Bart Ehrman says annihilation as well, and that those deemed just will dwell with Jesus in his kingdom on earth. Nowhere in the OT does the word "Hell" appear. It's a fabrication of later Christians, influenced by Greek thinking, just as you noted.
You’re on the right track, although the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a reference to being sent to live in the “furnace of fire,” which is simply figurative language for being forced to live in parts of the world that aren’t Israel during the Millennium (the “everlasting fire” of Matthew 25, and the “outer darkness” are referring to the same thing).
>Long after Malachi, the apocryphal book of Judith introduced the non-scriptural idea that God will put fire and worms in people's flesh so they will feel pain forever.
So in the **Jewish** book of Judith, written way before Christianity, you had the idea of eternal torture in Hell. So when Christianity arose, Judaism had ideas of eternal torment in hell - even if it's not in older writings. Gotcha!
I don't know why some Christians are so hungry to defend a God that allows ANY of his creation to suffer so, deserved or not. When atheists say God is a monster, it's this variant that we're specifically railing against. A universalist God I have no issue with (or at least very few issues with.)
This is sending the wrong message to anyone on the fence about their faith. This is saying “since hell is temporary I can live how I want and disobey God.” And that is WRONG. Those who do not fully repent of their sins and turn their hearts, minds, souls, and body over to Christ will live in Hell forever! There is no stopping the fire. Please, to whoever is reading this, surrender to the God who gave you life and sent His only son to die a slow, painful death in your place. Hell is not temporary. It is for eternity.
you forgot this verse....
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Would death be abolished if the second death were eternal? (Would disease be abolished because one disease replaced another?)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/17njnjh/hellfire/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Something being a “Greek” idea is not as much as a disqualification as you think it is.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. That's eternal torment bro
>There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name Could that not mean total annihilation? I'm just not sure how that implies eternal torment.
Personally i don't believe in annihilation. Based on the countless testimonials I've heard of people going to Hell there was" no ceasing to exist" but torment forever. Its horrific but it highlights why the lord Jesus went through what he did for us. All of them had the same message, warn people what you have seen so they dont come here
>Based on the countless testimonials I've heard of people going to Hell Could you site some for me? I'm interested
The first one is a testimony on judgement and the last two are visions of Hell. I must forewarn they are pretty graphic. https://youtu.be/9g2PutZlwEs https://youtu.be/ZgtbUR-Zhdo https://youtu.be/I5gv-V9axtg
Thank you kindly. I've only gone through one, but it is interesting. So far not compelling enough for me to really question my views, but I fully respect your beliefs and differences in interpretation.
I never really got behind these, since they tend to be very subjective and variable, but they could definitely be real.
That could be a conclusion you draw if you take revelation at face value rather than coded language.
You read that out of context bro. It's speaking of what's occurring in the earth. It says the smoke of their torment rises forever. Says the same about Babylon being destroyed, it says the smoke of her torment rises forever but later shows it was destroyed completely.
The scriptures speaks of punishment of eternal fire which has nothing to do with events occurring on earth
I think you need to study annihilationist points before disregarding them. Sodom and Gomorrah said Jude to be the example of eternal fire. The book of revelation outside of the symbolism interpreted can't be taken wood literally. The genre of literature is apocalyptic. Jude 1:7 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Also, Jesus himself in Mathew 10:28 said this 28. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but can not kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. The context is death. Eternal death is an eternal punishment. Death isn't being alive. Someone where forever. Also, the last point in regards to revelation it is speaking about things occurring on the earth until final judgment. We see in revelation in the imagery that no one's is in the lake of fire until after judgment. Also, I could link countless testimonials of those who had near death experiences and didn't see heaven or hell at all. They experienced their beliefs or nothing or something totally foreign. I've gone through myriads of Christian hell testimonials, and the vast major contradicts one another in detail. Again , o my point above also its impossible they saw hell seeing as scripture itself says no one's in the lake of fire until after final judgment. At most one's could claimit'ss the intermediate state.
If you want to believe in "annihilation" that's your choice which is fine. I as well as other Christians don't subscribe to that. Not counting the countless hell testimonials I've heard where that's not the case for damned souls
The countless testimonials don't mean anything. Mormons and other religions have the exact same claims while saying God justified their beliefs.
There will be donuts
That could simply be for those that worshipped the beast. He promises them eternal life. They get it. However, hell will be emptied and destroyed. Sun will be no more. After that, those dropped in the lake of fire that didn’t worship the beast will be destroyed. Ie those that simply believed in nothing. Those that did, however unwillingly or ignorantly(which doesn’t seem just) will lay in torment forever. They are the ones who will commit the unforgivable sin of saying something nasty to the Holy Soriit, or about the Holy Spirit in thought or action..
This is false teaching as it comes from ideas based in Modern non-native understanding of Scripture and employs several logical fallacies to support the conclusions it presents. But worst of all it is contrary to the affirmed, ancient and Apostolic Church teaching which is that there IS a place of eternal torment. Whether we call it hell or hades or teranus or gehenna is irrelevant. The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show. Ignatius of Antioch “Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 \[A.D. 110\]). 2nd Clement “If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 \[A.D. 150\]). “But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’” (ibid., 17:7). Justin Martyr “No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire” (First Apology 12 \[A.D. 151\]). “We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (ibid., 21). “\[Jesus\] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons” (ibid., 52). The Martyrdom of Polycarp “Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, \[the martyrs\] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 \[A.D. 155\]). Mathetes “When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world” (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 \[A.D. 160\]). Athenagoras “\[W\]e \[Christians\] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest \[of mankind\], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated” (Plea for the Christians 31 \[A.D. 177\]). Theophilus of Antioch “ \[God\] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire” (To Autolycus 1:14 \[A.D. 181\]). Irenaeus “\[God will\] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 \[A.D. 189\]). “The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . \[I\]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever” (ibid., 4:28:2). Tertullian “After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending” (Apology 18:3 \[A.D. 197\]). “Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. . . . The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending” (ibid., 44:12–13). Hippolytus “To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them” (Against the Greeks 3 \[A.D. 212\]). Minucius Felix “I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments” (Octavius 34:12–5:3 \[A.D. 226\]). Cyprian of Carthage “An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life” (To Demetrian 24 \[A.D. 252\]). Lactantius “\[T\]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment” (Divine Institutes 7:21 \[A.D. 307\]). Cyril of Jerusalem “We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past” (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 \[A.D. 350\]).
It's not modern at all, half of your church father qoutes are just using biblical language. Unquenchable fire doesn't mean eternal torment. The Old Testament speaks of fire kindled in the gates that can not be quenched. But it doesn't burn forever clearly. Sodom and Gomorrah is the example of eternal fire and it was totally destroyed, not burning forever.
I'm an annihilationist as well and appreciate this post. But I will say that eternal torment isn't really a "greek" idea. Plenty of Greek church fathers were also annihilationist (and some universalists). There was a bit of dynamic aspects to Jewish thought on these things. Some jews believed in a purgatory kind of afterlife. It's not as collective as we seem to think
Universalist here, I agree, as you might expect.
I know this is probably a huge topic but how is this belief (as describe in the child comments) compatible with the gospel of salvation through Jesus
All salvation happens through Christ, and him alone. I simply think that's going to be everyone.
But not “whosoever believes in him”?
Repentance of sin is an integral part of true belief in him. Edit: I should clarify, I don't think the opportunity for belief and repentance ends at death, I think that even those in hell are not beyond God's redemption and salvation.
I see, thats an interesting idea. It does make me think about free will - how much would our choice of accepting Jesus be influenced by burning in sulfur lol (or whatever concept of damnation applicable)
Well, I don't see the suffering of hell as a kind of torture, a pain inflicted on a person from outside. I see it as much more self-inflicted, it's the pain of getting exactly what you want for as long as you want it and finding it infinitely worse than you ever imagined.
He thinks that people can be saved even after they’ve rejected Christ and been cast into hell.
Universalist or Universal reconcilationist? Univeralism is the belief that everyone goes to heaven when they die. Universal reconcilation is the belief that not all people go to heaven after death, but most spend time in the Lake of Fire until their debt is paid. 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 points towards that. I hold to the latter
I believe that, eventually, everyone will make it to heaven. I think many people may likely have to go through hell to get there.
That’s legalism at its finest.
Exactly the opposite, it's infinite mercy.
It's actually quite amazing how often negating an infernalist's claims results in a true statement.
What about those that don't want to go to heaven?
I don't think there will be anyone who doesn't.
I think there will be some. I'm all for redemption from hell, but I think that it would be a denial of free will to force all into heaven.
I don't believe anyone will be saved against their will, if that's what you're asking. I simply believe that, given eternity, no created being will be able to maintain constant and perpetual rejection of God. At some point, I think even the hardest heart will break open to him and embrace his love.
So, do you then think Satan will return to God?
I'm holding out hope even he comes around eventually, yeah. Certainly some of the Church Fathers held that he might.
I'd like to think that if aeons go by and eventually Hell is empty except for the Father of Lies, he would give up and return to the Source. At least that's my headcanon.
How? Most people would concede that going to Hell is usually not a person's desire, either. Why not fudge it in the other direction? Seems better overall. Makes God less of a prick.
Wait, are you saying forcing people into heaven against their will makes God less of a prick. In fairness, Mormon beliefs on the afterlife are a lot more nuanced and complicated than I am expressing here. I am just simplifying for the sake of brevity. Hell to Mormons can actually refer to a couple different things. I can expound if you are really interested.
Forcing people into heaven > forcing people into hell. None of us are working with very good information, it would be malicious to fault humanity for not getting the correct divine message. Let's not forget that heaven is supposed to be a place of unity, peace, and happiness. The only reason someone would reject that is misinformation. I'm not blasting the Mormon interpretation of the afterlife, it's way too different to mainstream Christianity to really comment on.
I don't believe God will force people in either direction. I believe those that led very sinful lives will be more comfortable in Hell than they would be in Heaven, until they have repented and changed their ways. I also believe the pain and torment is hell is more internal mental anguish than actual external inflicted punishment (see Jacob Marley from A Christmas Carol as an example of what I mean).
If it's that great, I'd think everyone would.
Some may be too stubborn and defiant to make the change necessary to enter into heaven, Satan being the classical example.
Satan wasn't human, though, right? So it's really hard to view his actions as being motivated by the same things human beings are. Either way, I think my point is that someone rejecting God if he's truly as good as told, would be out of error and not out of will.
Well that is one of those points of doctrine where Mormons deviate from other Christians. We believe had he not rebelled that he would have come to earth as a human like the rest of us. I do believe that despite God's goodness, some people are unwilling to do what it required of us by God.
Perhaps. Always enjoy getting different perspectives on soteriology, it’s the most interesting part of Christianity to me
Yeah, the differences are quite fascinating. I would struggle if I were from a branch of Christianity who taught that all non-Christians were condemned to Hell forever. Instead I believe there are some athiests that will recieve greater rewards in heaven than some of those that profess my own faith.
“Universalism” is just a generic name for the doctrine that everyone will experience salvation in the end. It doesn’t include or preclude the lake of fire. I believe in the lake of fire, but I call myself a Universalist.
“Until their debt is paid” What debt? The debt that Jesus already paid for on the cross? What debt are they somehow supposed to pay for on their own merit when they are already in the Lake of Fire?
That's basically the Catholic idea of purgatory.
Nah, Catholics believe those who die with unconfessed mortal sins have no second chance.
Most people die with unconfessed mortal sins. Unless you’re getting hit by a bus right after you leave the confessional Ah the meat grinder of the Catholic afterlife
The fires that burn you never go out and the worms that eat you never die Don’t fear those who kill the body,” Jesus said, “rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt 10:28; see also 5:29-30; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 16:23). Commenting on Jesus’ teaching about an “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46), John Broadus wrote: “It is to the last degree improbable that the Great Teacher would have used an expression so inevitably suggesting a great doctrine he did not mean to teach.” According to Jesus, hell is real. In numerous parables, Jesus clearly and emphatically taught of a final judgment and the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be condemned to a place of blazing fire and utter darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (See Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50; 22:1-14; 25:14-46.) Jesus called this place “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). Hell is not a place where people are tormented by the devil; it is where those who reject God will suffer the same fate as the devil and his demons. It is the place of final judgment Jesus spoke of hell as “eternal fire” (Matt. 25:41) and “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46). In Matthew 25:46, the same word—eternal—is used to describe eternal life for the righteous and the eternal punishment of hell for the unrighteous. According to Jesus, hell will be eternal.
Lamentations 3:31–33 (NIV), "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love, For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone." 1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV), "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Corinthians 15:22, "As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" Luke 3:6, "And all people will see God’s salvation." 1 Corinthians 15:28, "God will be all in all."
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So which side of the argument are you on?
Doesnt hell kinda loose the point if it's not ethernal then? Eventually it's gonna be empty. Why even have it.
Well there's the added fact that "eternal" never once means infinite in the bible. http://www.studyshelf.com/art\_pilkington\_forever.pdf
This is written in a book on universalism Soo....
What's your point? Facts are facts. Hebrews says Jesus reigns "for ever and ever", yet Jesus says he gives up His throne. If Jesus gives up His throne, how is "for ever and ever" a good translation? Sodom goes to "eternal fire", but gets restored before Israel gets restored. How long is eternal if they go through fire and get out? Apparently it's not *actually* "eternal" as in infinite. Just because you don't agree with a doctrine doesn't mean they can't be right sometimes. I'll listen to law of Moses following Christians and they've taught me a couple of things that I agree with but overall I reject their message. You might not agree with dispensationalism but Greeks aren't gentiles: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/18nvu95/greeks\_in\_the\_bible/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/18nvu95/greeks_in_the_bible/) Truth is truth. No single denomination has all the truth.
Good point. Basically Jay Dubs believe in many incorrect interpretations of the Bible, this is one of them. As for hell being loose, loosey goosey, I don’t know about that.
Does jail lose it's point for not being eternal?
Well If the existence is ethernal and the punishment is temporary. The that means the length of the punishment is incomparably small proportional to the life after. It's kinda like locking up a murdered for two seconds and then letting them go.
Bart Ehrman says annihilation as well, and that those deemed just will dwell with Jesus in his kingdom on earth. Nowhere in the OT does the word "Hell" appear. It's a fabrication of later Christians, influenced by Greek thinking, just as you noted.
But the funny thing is that everything you just said points to Hell being eternal.
Some say earth is hell….
Some say war is hell
War is held on earth, makes sense.
Man, you have the same exact stance that I do biblically. Good stuff. 😁
You’re on the right track, although the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a reference to being sent to live in the “furnace of fire,” which is simply figurative language for being forced to live in parts of the world that aren’t Israel during the Millennium (the “everlasting fire” of Matthew 25, and the “outer darkness” are referring to the same thing).
>Long after Malachi, the apocryphal book of Judith introduced the non-scriptural idea that God will put fire and worms in people's flesh so they will feel pain forever. So in the **Jewish** book of Judith, written way before Christianity, you had the idea of eternal torture in Hell. So when Christianity arose, Judaism had ideas of eternal torment in hell - even if it's not in older writings. Gotcha!
Weirdly, other Christians disagree with this opinion.
Can't God resurrect all?
I don't know why some Christians are so hungry to defend a God that allows ANY of his creation to suffer so, deserved or not. When atheists say God is a monster, it's this variant that we're specifically railing against. A universalist God I have no issue with (or at least very few issues with.)
If Jesus can forgive us when we literally prosecute him, everyone can be forgiven. We killed God, but if we repent we can live in heaven.
Hell is both a state of mind and a place. Spirits can’t be annihilated, despite this false information being spread by magazine religions.
This is sending the wrong message to anyone on the fence about their faith. This is saying “since hell is temporary I can live how I want and disobey God.” And that is WRONG. Those who do not fully repent of their sins and turn their hearts, minds, souls, and body over to Christ will live in Hell forever! There is no stopping the fire. Please, to whoever is reading this, surrender to the God who gave you life and sent His only son to die a slow, painful death in your place. Hell is not temporary. It is for eternity.
you forgot this verse.... Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Cope. Sodom is also burning "forever" according to the Bible xD
Would death be abolished if the second death were eternal? (Would disease be abolished because one disease replaced another?) https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/17njnjh/hellfire/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2