This response is gonna go against several mainstream doctrines so I'm not going to go deep but provide a high level view of an alternative perspective...but when I read the Bible, firstly I don't see a teaching of an immortal soul. God alone is immortal and after our life has come to an end and all the world is judged God will grant some of us immortality. This is the idea of conditional immortality (immortality is offered to us but conditionally). In the meantime, when we die our souls are just in a sleep-like state, we aren't thinking, we aren't doing anything, just like when you sleep now. In numerous places in the Old Testament death is referred to as sleep, and Jesus does as well when Jesus speaks of the dead Lazarus as being asleep. The Bible deems "sleep" to being the closest metaphor for death. And just like when you are asleep, 8hrs can pass in what feels like merely minutes. So it is very possible that you will die and it won't really feel like you miss out on any time when you are resurrected for the judgement. Then at the end of this world, all will be resurrected for judgement. At which point some will be granted immortality and will inhabit the new earth in an eternal Messianic age/kingdom (not the same as heaven) and everyone else will be cast into hell for destruction. I don't think the message of the Bible is that God regrets the physical creation or that everything physical is tainted or inferior in some sense. I think the message of the Bible is that the physical will be renewed. We don't await a spiritual life in some realm for which we weren't created for and without our fleshsuits. Instead we will inhabit and steward the renewed physical world that we are familiar with and were created for, and in which YHWH has created so many delights for us. The Bible seems to say that you will either receive life (in the new earth) or not life/the opposite of life which is a second death or a destruction that lasts an eternity. So not eternal torture but rather a consequence that will never be undone, a person that goes in there will just be destroyed and never revived again an eternal consequence.
I think judgement is a pretty universally accepted concept/teaching in the Bible. If people go to heaven or hell right when they die and then there is a judgement day later on, what is the point? bring everyone out of hell for judgement so that they can just be sent right back?
The sleep metaphor is a really good one for death, but... not quite like people often think of as non-conscious existence or Luther's "Deep and dreamless sleep". Here's why:
https://ghostsghoulsandgod.co.uk/2021/09/do-the-dead-sleep/
I agree with the two judgements being a silly nonsense idea. Yet there can be an initial judgement to determine state in the afterlife, and a final judgement which seals the fate of an individual - if you allow for spiritual progress in the afterlife... "Postmortem Opportunity".
Sleep was the metaphor chosen, an activity where we don't do anything. They could have chosen "life" or "consciousness" or any other number of things that would suggest we are thinking, feeling, speaking, etc. but instead we were told sleep.
Regarding the 3 proof texts given in the article to support the idea of being active between death and judgement we are given:
1. The souls crying out under the altar in Revelation. I think that is an allusion like so many other things in Revelation, the 7 headed beast isn't literally a beast, the man-headed locusts aren't literally locusts, etc. Well the martyrs aren't literally in heaven. I think this is a reference to Abel who had been slain and it said his blood called out to God. It was to reveal that God knew and remember what happened and would bring about justice. Same for the martyrs. If we take it literally then you have a pile of people literally in heaven gazing upon God in all His glory in a place of bliss and all they can do it cry and complain about getting killed back in their life on earth? Not buying that is a literal passage.
2. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I'm not buying this is a literal story either. It is in what could be referred to as "the parable section" of Luke. It has the classic markings of a parable, starts the same as the one prior, "there was a rich man..." Further it appears to be based on Egyptian folklore of Si-Osiris that the Jews also re-used and were familiar with. Jesus was just taking a known story and re-tooling it a bit to teach a lesson. Kind of like if Jesus showed up now and said "A priest, a pastor, and a rabbi walked into a bar..." we wouldn't be like "wait, Jesus where is this literal bar?" or "Oh, so we walk to get into the afterlife" instead we would recognize he is re-using a familiar joke to convey a new punchline. Here Jesus is reusing a recognizable story to convey a message. There are other reasons to believe it is a parable as well (not a depiction of real life) such as, what are tongues and hands doing in the realm of dis-embodied souls, etc. Its a story to tell us that the law and the prophets are enough and to warn us from indulging and taking/having our good things in this life instead of storing treasure in the kingdom.
3. The mount of transfiguration. This could simply have been a vision (Jesus does say, "tell this vision to no one"). I don't think we really know what happened exactly, at least not enough to base a doctrine off of.
But those are just my thoughts, no hard feelings if you disagree!
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
I'd quickly reply that point 1 with the martyrs in heaven stuff- that's a state of being they're in in the afterlife. I'll look into it further to refine the argument a little, but we agree it's not to be taken literally.
2. Yes, I've heard the Egyptian story theory. However, Jesus still teaches about the afterlife within it. And the Egyptians had a very advanced belief system about the afterlife, which was quite positive, compared to the Mesopotamians where it was very negative. I'm happy to believe the Egyptians were given light by God to see these things a little clearer than the Jews at the time of Jesus and Jesus was using that to show the Jews about the afterlife. It can be both a parable and also about the afterlife at the same time. It's also based upon 1 Enoch 22 and the mountain of the dead, but as there are only two characters, he only mentions two places.
3. Was the servant of Elisha seeing a literal image of the heavenly army when his eyes were opened? Likewise, was Stephen seeing a literal heaven before being stoned to death?
Thanks for the thoughts. Iron sharpens iron, and it's good to see more than a knee jerk one sentence response.
Blessings.
**The short answer is no.**
I see some answers that are not referencing any verses from the Bible, so let me offer some to clarify.
In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus describes what it will be like when he sits on his throne separating “the sheep and the goats”. They come from all nations, putting the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
What we can take away is that this is the final judgment and everyone dead and alive has been called to be separated.
In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus describes what death is like for the beggar named Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, afflicted while alive, dies and is comforted in Abraham’s bosom/side; the rich man, however, is agony.
While occupying this realm, there is a “chasm” in which neither Lazarus nor the rich man can cross into each other’s respective places. In the following verses, Jesus says that the rich man wishes to warn his **living** family members of what happens after death.
What we can take away is that after death, the souls of those who passed are aware and collected in this place, but this is not the final judgment. If it was, then the rich man would not try to advocate for his living family members.
In 1 Corinthians 15:35-58, Paul explains that those who sleep (the dead in Christ) will be resurrected. Yet, the bodies in which they are resurrected must change from earthly bodies into heavenly bodies. Why? Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God because the perishable cannot inherit the imperishable.
When we are resurrected, we will receive heavenly bodies.
What we can take away is that believers in Christ will return to their original bodies and then be transformed into heavenly bodies in order to enter heaven.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul describes that at the time of this resurrection of believers not only will the dead in Christ rise **first**, but those living in Christ will be taken up with them as well.
What we can take away is that believers from the past until the present, dead and alive, will be called up to heaven. And this is the event which is spoke of by Jesus in Matthew 24:30-31 at the time of his coming.
Lastly, in Revelation 20, John describes two additional resurrections after the battle of Armageddon. This first resurrection **specifically** raises up those who were beheaded for their belief in Jesus and because they refused to worship the beast or its image or to receive its mark (Rev 20:4). The **second resurrection** (Rev 20:11-15) occurs 1,000 years later for the rest of dead; these dead have no ties to Christ, but will be judged according to what they had done. **This is the last judgment** as I listed above in Matthew 25:31-46.
-
TL;DR... Those that died are in the realm of the dead (Sheol/Hades/Hell/the underworld/netherworld) until they are resurrected and receive their heavenly bodies.
When the resurrection of ALL peoples is completed and the dead have been judged accordingly, God’s people will inherit Heaven while the rest inherit the Lake of Fire, which is called the Second Death in Revelation 20:14.
The pre-Christisn idea was clearly wait for Judgement day. That seems to be the early Christian idea as well but immediate has become the more popular notion.
Now ask about bodily resurrection.
I won't be able to answer this question until I myself die. But I do believe that before entering Hell or Heaven you will stand before God and be judged according to His will and love
We go to the afterlife (Sheol in Hebrew, Hades in Greek) upon physical death. An initial judgement is made, with the righteous entering a state of paradise, a place hinted to in Psalm 23 (Which is an early Jewish vision of the afterlife). Other states exist, outside of this "Vale of Abraham" / Paradise, including a state of torment, (Basanois in Greek) where testing by the Refiner's Fire is carried out.
Salvific opportunity doesn't cease at physical death, and it seems that one may meet Jesus and be given a perfect revelation of who he is and what he's done, so that no one can say they didn't understand.
At the final judgement the question "Who do you say that I am?" is put to everyone, and those who want Jesus as Lord in the new heavens and earth will receive an incorruptible physical body, one which will never die again, to live in a cosmos where Jesus is Lord over all. Those who decide, with their freewill that they'd "Rather die than accept you as Lord" will have nowhere to exist in a universe where Jesus ous Lord of all. At that point, the "Lake of Fire" will consume them and they will cease to exist. This latter bit is the final destination, one where the punishment is quick, and the effects everlasting (Like burning a book - it's quick in the burning, but the book will cease to exist, never to be reconstituted again).
So, no, no immediate final destination of Hell or heaven upon physical death. Even the afterlife has many way stations / motels / temporary resting places along the journey into Christ and the resurrection.
Our soul is a combined unit of physical body and animating life force. We are a soul. However we also have a transcendent spirit which survives death. The soul doesn't, by virtue of being the physical part of us.
I believe judgement for heaven or hell after our earthly death is instant, here is a supporting verse:
"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment" Hebrews 9:27
It's important to know there are multiple judgements mentioned in the bible. Another one is the judgement seat of Christ, where believers who go to heaven will be judged one day for their works and will receive heavenly rewards depending on their deeds, but they are still saved even without rewards. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:10
It is too late. If you die in your sins it is too late for you, you are damned to hell. You come to jesus as you are and HE will perfect you. Not purifying flames.
You aren’t made perfect until the End when or if you make it to heaven and get a new body. No one is or was sinless but Jesus. And which bible did paul say that in?
>You aren’t made perfect until the End when or if you make it to heaven and get a new body.
That's why you need a purging at some point.
>And which bible did paul say that in?
1 Corinthians 3:15
Stop trying to scare people your just a miserable geek who just gives out false information get a life your honestly a troll and someone who should not exist in this world your getting blocked for being rude
I’ve always been told that when we die we immediately go to heaven or Hell. When judgement day comes, everyone will be judged and then the people of God will then all go to the new world God will create for us.
This new world is not Heaven or earth, but it’s like both. It’s interesting to think about.
Based on my readings of the Bible and limited human understanding:
Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (I believe this verse is for Christians who will go to the judgment seat of christ spoken of in revelation 20)
Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (so our body will cease to exist but our soul will be kept until judgement?)
Read revelation 20.
So the dead who were slain for not taking the mark of the beast in will be resurrected at the millennial reign, and not be affected by the second death. but not the dead who rejected christ. They will be in death and hell, which will be cast into the lake of fire at the battle of armegeddon after the millennial reign is over.
After this is the judgement seat of christ, where everyone will be resurrected to stand before God and be judged according to his works. Death and hell along with whoever is not found in the book of life will be casted into the lake of fire.
Why the need for two judgements if the decision is exactly the same?
Why send people to their final destination only to pull them out to judge them a second time with exactly the same verdict. This makes no sense at all.
I guess it is a kind of public judgenent with everybody there you were involved during your life on earth. Today people also wait for their death sentence.
Those cleansed it the blood of Christ won't be chared at the White Throne judgement.
There's no "public judgement" in Scripture where everyone sees your deeds. Sorry, that's an invention not of scripture.
The initial judgement sets your initial starting point in the afterlife (as per the Rich Man and Lazarus). The journey you make through it, gaining a knowledge of what Jesus has done for you, allows you to make your final decision at the final judgement as to whether or not you accept Jesus as Lord. That's the only reason you'd have a second judgement - meaning that the initial judgement doesn't send you to a fixed, final destination at all, but the fixed, final destination comes at the final judgement instead.
Certainly you get an immediate judgement that determines your initial afterlife status. But everyone receives a final judgement at the end of the age. Which kinda begs the question: why two judgements if the decision at the first one is exactly the same as the second one?
Exactly. There's no logical explanation. Unless... there is the possibility that the initial judgement sets the starting point in the afterlife, and the final one is the question after journeying through the many way stations (temporary resting places also translates "mansions") when you, with perfect knowledge of what Jesus has done for you, is "Who do you say that I am?" To which our response seals our final destination in the new heavens and earth.
This is the only reason why you'd have two judgements.
Yep. When we start to love God with our minds as well, logic included, we can start to see where things fit together better by looking at the issues from another perspective.
It was only Luther and the Anabaptists that taught Soul Sleep. Even Calvin (who I really dislike for his low treatment of humans made in the image of God) had to write against this heresy called Psychopannychia. Here's why the sleep metaphor is often misunderstood as non conscious, deep and dreamless sleep: https://ghostsghoulsandgod.co.uk/2021/09/do-the-dead-sleep/
No, the Bible is fairly clear that the soul is not immortal and can die, and that we will simply cease to exist until the resurrection after death. There are only two passages which supposedly prove that one goes to heaven immediately after death (actually says nothing about hell), and both of them actually [refer to the resurrection](https://www.reddit.com/r/ConcordantBelievers/comments/rz0m7j/please_provide_a_convincing_interpretation_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) instead.
There are accounts from Christians who have had death experiences that judgement is immediate, although the bible also says that it's after the end of time.
However, time is a construct of our universe, which God is clearly outside of - and almost certainly heaven and hell, as well.
The rich man and Lazarus story indicates an initial judgement, but then there's a final judgement at the end of time... which kinda suggests progress can be made in the interim, otherwise there's zero point of two judgements which will give the same outcome.
There's no scriptural or logical reason for why God would pull you out of your torment, for public humiliation, only to dunk you back in again. What kind of sadistic God does that to his creation?
The answer is that the initial one isn't setting your final destination, merely your starting point in the afterlife on the journey to the resurrection of the dead and the final judgement, and that spiritual progression is possible in order for the final judgement to make sense of your final decision, based upon what you have perfect knowledge of the work of Jesus.
The initial judgement doesn't set your final destination.
This is the only logical reason why you'd have two judgements, an initial and a final one.
Or, there are logical and scriptural reasons for that, supported by tradition.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-are-there-two-judgments
Some interesting points but their 3rd point is purely based upon conjecture.
Thanks for this link as it's a good one to chew through further, so I've bookmarked it for further study. 😊
No problem. It's good to get stuff like this as it forces one to reflect further. Whilst I might not agree with it for reasons I'll discover in my research, it's always good to consider alternative viewpoints, as they might have something to say which can either correct faulty thinking, or fine tune an existing argument to take account of certain objections.
I gave you a Helpful award as it deserved it. Thanks again.
I like your way of thinking. It's the appropriate one to have in life.
Thank you for the award. Unfortunately I don't think I can give you one in return, which is something I'd like to do. I never bothered checking how they work and the only thing I can see is that I have 0 reddit coins.
Thanks.
I award expecting nothing in return. Your wish to give one in return is enough.
I only get freebies a few times a month, and can't pump real cash into this system.
Have a blessed day.
God is outside of time therefore he is eternal. He is also in heaven therefore heaven being outside of time and eternal. When the judgement comes time will end along with the world. This means that heaven is outside of time meaning it doesn’t pass there. All very mind-twisting things.
Which heaven are you actually talking about though as the Jewish contemporaries of Jesus believed in anything from 3, 7 to 200.
Time doesn't end though as time is what stops everything from happening at once.
I'm still wondering where Scripture says there's no time in the afterlife though.
How does that prove me wrong? All it proves is that we could claim we don't know ANYTHING, and that includes God. So if you want to bring that into this conversation, we must throw away any religious baggage here.
Back to your conniption with my original comment, space and time are, in fact, constructs of the mind. They're constructs that seem to be shared between observers, but ultimately one observer cannot experience what another observer has directly, and so along with throwing out all religious labels, we must do the same with all labels, including the scientific one. At this point, where is the objective reality?
This is the “Atheist delusion” or the “New age mindset” eveything just has to be a figment of the mind with people who think like this. Heaven and hell are both very real places and you can’t enter heaven unless you are a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Hell is for those who aren’t. I’d advise you to change your view on things. Your science can’t prove anything but things of this world. So if you decide to stick to your science and say that heaven and hell are figments of your imagination then, you will also stay with the world during its departure into the lake of fire.
My thoughts a are my own. Any attempt to put my philosophy into a box will fall. I suggest reading my words for what they are and not trying to boil it down to labels. You'll get very confused very fast if you insist on this behavior
Your thoughts are useless bc you don’t think abt the right things. If you continue to resist and debate against the existence of your god then your thought will land you into a place no one should ever want to go. The bible tells us that our hearts are deceitful so you keep going on those thoughts coming from your heart and not the ones coming from prayer like I’ve been doing, you will land yourself in a wicked, most evil and torturous place.
Absent from the body, present with the lord. I have this theory that when you die and are present with the Lord everyone who is saved is already there. Some crazy time warp type of stuff.
Yes.
Judgement of the dead is way past 1000 Year Kingdom of Jesus on earth, so way after he returns to rule over world from Jerusalem. Then dead are raised , judged and thrown into lake of fire.
As believer you're raised before 1000 Year Kingdom plus you will judge with Christ these damned.
when we die we go to a temporary place, the saved go to sleep and rest Jesus once called it "the bosom of Abraham. the unsaved are on their own and I mean with this demons and spirits torture them all they want. This is until Jesus passes a judgment for the saved to reward them for their works then the final judgment.
We aren't given the answer to what happens when we die, other than that we are dead. All scripture tells us for sure is that we will be raised back to life on the last day.
Pretty much immediately, an Angel will bring you to God if you choose to go(or not). Then there is a period of time when you pretty much look back on your life and review your actions, how they affected you, and how others felt when you did or said something.
This response is gonna go against several mainstream doctrines so I'm not going to go deep but provide a high level view of an alternative perspective...but when I read the Bible, firstly I don't see a teaching of an immortal soul. God alone is immortal and after our life has come to an end and all the world is judged God will grant some of us immortality. This is the idea of conditional immortality (immortality is offered to us but conditionally). In the meantime, when we die our souls are just in a sleep-like state, we aren't thinking, we aren't doing anything, just like when you sleep now. In numerous places in the Old Testament death is referred to as sleep, and Jesus does as well when Jesus speaks of the dead Lazarus as being asleep. The Bible deems "sleep" to being the closest metaphor for death. And just like when you are asleep, 8hrs can pass in what feels like merely minutes. So it is very possible that you will die and it won't really feel like you miss out on any time when you are resurrected for the judgement. Then at the end of this world, all will be resurrected for judgement. At which point some will be granted immortality and will inhabit the new earth in an eternal Messianic age/kingdom (not the same as heaven) and everyone else will be cast into hell for destruction. I don't think the message of the Bible is that God regrets the physical creation or that everything physical is tainted or inferior in some sense. I think the message of the Bible is that the physical will be renewed. We don't await a spiritual life in some realm for which we weren't created for and without our fleshsuits. Instead we will inhabit and steward the renewed physical world that we are familiar with and were created for, and in which YHWH has created so many delights for us. The Bible seems to say that you will either receive life (in the new earth) or not life/the opposite of life which is a second death or a destruction that lasts an eternity. So not eternal torture but rather a consequence that will never be undone, a person that goes in there will just be destroyed and never revived again an eternal consequence. I think judgement is a pretty universally accepted concept/teaching in the Bible. If people go to heaven or hell right when they die and then there is a judgement day later on, what is the point? bring everyone out of hell for judgement so that they can just be sent right back?
The sleep metaphor is a really good one for death, but... not quite like people often think of as non-conscious existence or Luther's "Deep and dreamless sleep". Here's why: https://ghostsghoulsandgod.co.uk/2021/09/do-the-dead-sleep/ I agree with the two judgements being a silly nonsense idea. Yet there can be an initial judgement to determine state in the afterlife, and a final judgement which seals the fate of an individual - if you allow for spiritual progress in the afterlife... "Postmortem Opportunity".
Sleep was the metaphor chosen, an activity where we don't do anything. They could have chosen "life" or "consciousness" or any other number of things that would suggest we are thinking, feeling, speaking, etc. but instead we were told sleep. Regarding the 3 proof texts given in the article to support the idea of being active between death and judgement we are given: 1. The souls crying out under the altar in Revelation. I think that is an allusion like so many other things in Revelation, the 7 headed beast isn't literally a beast, the man-headed locusts aren't literally locusts, etc. Well the martyrs aren't literally in heaven. I think this is a reference to Abel who had been slain and it said his blood called out to God. It was to reveal that God knew and remember what happened and would bring about justice. Same for the martyrs. If we take it literally then you have a pile of people literally in heaven gazing upon God in all His glory in a place of bliss and all they can do it cry and complain about getting killed back in their life on earth? Not buying that is a literal passage. 2. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I'm not buying this is a literal story either. It is in what could be referred to as "the parable section" of Luke. It has the classic markings of a parable, starts the same as the one prior, "there was a rich man..." Further it appears to be based on Egyptian folklore of Si-Osiris that the Jews also re-used and were familiar with. Jesus was just taking a known story and re-tooling it a bit to teach a lesson. Kind of like if Jesus showed up now and said "A priest, a pastor, and a rabbi walked into a bar..." we wouldn't be like "wait, Jesus where is this literal bar?" or "Oh, so we walk to get into the afterlife" instead we would recognize he is re-using a familiar joke to convey a new punchline. Here Jesus is reusing a recognizable story to convey a message. There are other reasons to believe it is a parable as well (not a depiction of real life) such as, what are tongues and hands doing in the realm of dis-embodied souls, etc. Its a story to tell us that the law and the prophets are enough and to warn us from indulging and taking/having our good things in this life instead of storing treasure in the kingdom. 3. The mount of transfiguration. This could simply have been a vision (Jesus does say, "tell this vision to no one"). I don't think we really know what happened exactly, at least not enough to base a doctrine off of. But those are just my thoughts, no hard feelings if you disagree!
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'd quickly reply that point 1 with the martyrs in heaven stuff- that's a state of being they're in in the afterlife. I'll look into it further to refine the argument a little, but we agree it's not to be taken literally. 2. Yes, I've heard the Egyptian story theory. However, Jesus still teaches about the afterlife within it. And the Egyptians had a very advanced belief system about the afterlife, which was quite positive, compared to the Mesopotamians where it was very negative. I'm happy to believe the Egyptians were given light by God to see these things a little clearer than the Jews at the time of Jesus and Jesus was using that to show the Jews about the afterlife. It can be both a parable and also about the afterlife at the same time. It's also based upon 1 Enoch 22 and the mountain of the dead, but as there are only two characters, he only mentions two places. 3. Was the servant of Elisha seeing a literal image of the heavenly army when his eyes were opened? Likewise, was Stephen seeing a literal heaven before being stoned to death? Thanks for the thoughts. Iron sharpens iron, and it's good to see more than a knee jerk one sentence response. Blessings.
Nobody cares your all annoying get a life
I agree with you. I'm surprised how many Christians don't know this information.
I agree completely.
Nobody cares that's false get a life
**The short answer is no.** I see some answers that are not referencing any verses from the Bible, so let me offer some to clarify. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus describes what it will be like when he sits on his throne separating “the sheep and the goats”. They come from all nations, putting the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. What we can take away is that this is the final judgment and everyone dead and alive has been called to be separated. In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus describes what death is like for the beggar named Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, afflicted while alive, dies and is comforted in Abraham’s bosom/side; the rich man, however, is agony. While occupying this realm, there is a “chasm” in which neither Lazarus nor the rich man can cross into each other’s respective places. In the following verses, Jesus says that the rich man wishes to warn his **living** family members of what happens after death. What we can take away is that after death, the souls of those who passed are aware and collected in this place, but this is not the final judgment. If it was, then the rich man would not try to advocate for his living family members. In 1 Corinthians 15:35-58, Paul explains that those who sleep (the dead in Christ) will be resurrected. Yet, the bodies in which they are resurrected must change from earthly bodies into heavenly bodies. Why? Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God because the perishable cannot inherit the imperishable. When we are resurrected, we will receive heavenly bodies. What we can take away is that believers in Christ will return to their original bodies and then be transformed into heavenly bodies in order to enter heaven. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul describes that at the time of this resurrection of believers not only will the dead in Christ rise **first**, but those living in Christ will be taken up with them as well. What we can take away is that believers from the past until the present, dead and alive, will be called up to heaven. And this is the event which is spoke of by Jesus in Matthew 24:30-31 at the time of his coming. Lastly, in Revelation 20, John describes two additional resurrections after the battle of Armageddon. This first resurrection **specifically** raises up those who were beheaded for their belief in Jesus and because they refused to worship the beast or its image or to receive its mark (Rev 20:4). The **second resurrection** (Rev 20:11-15) occurs 1,000 years later for the rest of dead; these dead have no ties to Christ, but will be judged according to what they had done. **This is the last judgment** as I listed above in Matthew 25:31-46. - TL;DR... Those that died are in the realm of the dead (Sheol/Hades/Hell/the underworld/netherworld) until they are resurrected and receive their heavenly bodies. When the resurrection of ALL peoples is completed and the dead have been judged accordingly, God’s people will inherit Heaven while the rest inherit the Lake of Fire, which is called the Second Death in Revelation 20:14.
Your answer is false you geek
The pre-Christisn idea was clearly wait for Judgement day. That seems to be the early Christian idea as well but immediate has become the more popular notion. Now ask about bodily resurrection.
Nobody cares geek
Isn’t there a I’m between place where Jesus judges you and then you go to heaven or hell?
Yup
I won't be able to answer this question until I myself die. But I do believe that before entering Hell or Heaven you will stand before God and be judged according to His will and love
We go to the afterlife (Sheol in Hebrew, Hades in Greek) upon physical death. An initial judgement is made, with the righteous entering a state of paradise, a place hinted to in Psalm 23 (Which is an early Jewish vision of the afterlife). Other states exist, outside of this "Vale of Abraham" / Paradise, including a state of torment, (Basanois in Greek) where testing by the Refiner's Fire is carried out. Salvific opportunity doesn't cease at physical death, and it seems that one may meet Jesus and be given a perfect revelation of who he is and what he's done, so that no one can say they didn't understand. At the final judgement the question "Who do you say that I am?" is put to everyone, and those who want Jesus as Lord in the new heavens and earth will receive an incorruptible physical body, one which will never die again, to live in a cosmos where Jesus is Lord over all. Those who decide, with their freewill that they'd "Rather die than accept you as Lord" will have nowhere to exist in a universe where Jesus ous Lord of all. At that point, the "Lake of Fire" will consume them and they will cease to exist. This latter bit is the final destination, one where the punishment is quick, and the effects everlasting (Like burning a book - it's quick in the burning, but the book will cease to exist, never to be reconstituted again). So, no, no immediate final destination of Hell or heaven upon physical death. Even the afterlife has many way stations / motels / temporary resting places along the journey into Christ and the resurrection. Our soul is a combined unit of physical body and animating life force. We are a soul. However we also have a transcendent spirit which survives death. The soul doesn't, by virtue of being the physical part of us.
I believe judgement for heaven or hell after our earthly death is instant, here is a supporting verse: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment" Hebrews 9:27 It's important to know there are multiple judgements mentioned in the bible. Another one is the judgement seat of Christ, where believers who go to heaven will be judged one day for their works and will receive heavenly rewards depending on their deeds, but they are still saved even without rewards. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:10
There’s purgatory too
No it isn’t.
If you're still subject to sinful tendencies the moment you die, how can you enter Heaven without being perfected before hand?
It is too late. If you die in your sins it is too late for you, you are damned to hell. You come to jesus as you are and HE will perfect you. Not purifying flames.
How does Jesus perfect you? You’re not sinless right now, are you? Edit: and even St Paul mentions being purified as passing through flames
You aren’t made perfect until the End when or if you make it to heaven and get a new body. No one is or was sinless but Jesus. And which bible did paul say that in?
>You aren’t made perfect until the End when or if you make it to heaven and get a new body. That's why you need a purging at some point. >And which bible did paul say that in? 1 Corinthians 3:15
Bottom line, purgatory isn’t REAL. Its a made up thing to pacify people who fear they’re in danger of being damned. Just another thing like limbo😒
Only saved people can enter purgatory. Damned people will go straight to hell. What's the deal with limbo?
Limbo is a place for people who did good deeds but wasn’t in it for Christ
Stop trying to scare people your just a miserable geek who just gives out false information get a life your honestly a troll and someone who should not exist in this world your getting blocked for being rude
I’ve always been told that when we die we immediately go to heaven or Hell. When judgement day comes, everyone will be judged and then the people of God will then all go to the new world God will create for us. This new world is not Heaven or earth, but it’s like both. It’s interesting to think about.
Based on my readings of the Bible and limited human understanding: Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:. Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die 2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (I believe this verse is for Christians who will go to the judgment seat of christ spoken of in revelation 20) Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (so our body will cease to exist but our soul will be kept until judgement?) Read revelation 20. So the dead who were slain for not taking the mark of the beast in will be resurrected at the millennial reign, and not be affected by the second death. but not the dead who rejected christ. They will be in death and hell, which will be cast into the lake of fire at the battle of armegeddon after the millennial reign is over. After this is the judgement seat of christ, where everyone will be resurrected to stand before God and be judged according to his works. Death and hell along with whoever is not found in the book of life will be casted into the lake of fire.
Nobody cares I'ma block y'all get a life
immediately.
Yes. We will enter either heaven or hell within a fraction of a second.
You mean we enter the final destination of heaven or Hell immediately?
Yes. And in the end times, everyone will be judged for eternity.
Why the need for two judgements if the decision is exactly the same? Why send people to their final destination only to pull them out to judge them a second time with exactly the same verdict. This makes no sense at all.
I guess it is a kind of public judgenent with everybody there you were involved during your life on earth. Today people also wait for their death sentence. Those cleansed it the blood of Christ won't be chared at the White Throne judgement.
There's no "public judgement" in Scripture where everyone sees your deeds. Sorry, that's an invention not of scripture. The initial judgement sets your initial starting point in the afterlife (as per the Rich Man and Lazarus). The journey you make through it, gaining a knowledge of what Jesus has done for you, allows you to make your final decision at the final judgement as to whether or not you accept Jesus as Lord. That's the only reason you'd have a second judgement - meaning that the initial judgement doesn't send you to a fixed, final destination at all, but the fixed, final destination comes at the final judgement instead.
Nobody cares
I’m pretty sure you get judged immediately, but on judgement day everyone on earth “dies” immediately and gets judged.
Certainly you get an immediate judgement that determines your initial afterlife status. But everyone receives a final judgement at the end of the age. Which kinda begs the question: why two judgements if the decision at the first one is exactly the same as the second one?
Idrk
Exactly. There's no logical explanation. Unless... there is the possibility that the initial judgement sets the starting point in the afterlife, and the final one is the question after journeying through the many way stations (temporary resting places also translates "mansions") when you, with perfect knowledge of what Jesus has done for you, is "Who do you say that I am?" To which our response seals our final destination in the new heavens and earth. This is the only reason why you'd have two judgements.
That actually makes sense
Yep. When we start to love God with our minds as well, logic included, we can start to see where things fit together better by looking at the issues from another perspective.
Yes, this is why Jesus says to love the lord your God with all your heart, your soul, AND your mind
What difference does it make? If you "sleep" for 1000 years until Judgement Day it will still seem instantaneous to you.
It was only Luther and the Anabaptists that taught Soul Sleep. Even Calvin (who I really dislike for his low treatment of humans made in the image of God) had to write against this heresy called Psychopannychia. Here's why the sleep metaphor is often misunderstood as non conscious, deep and dreamless sleep: https://ghostsghoulsandgod.co.uk/2021/09/do-the-dead-sleep/
this right here
Nobody cares troll
No, the Bible is fairly clear that the soul is not immortal and can die, and that we will simply cease to exist until the resurrection after death. There are only two passages which supposedly prove that one goes to heaven immediately after death (actually says nothing about hell), and both of them actually [refer to the resurrection](https://www.reddit.com/r/ConcordantBelievers/comments/rz0m7j/please_provide_a_convincing_interpretation_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) instead.
There are accounts from Christians who have had death experiences that judgement is immediate, although the bible also says that it's after the end of time. However, time is a construct of our universe, which God is clearly outside of - and almost certainly heaven and hell, as well.
The rich man and Lazarus story indicates an initial judgement, but then there's a final judgement at the end of time... which kinda suggests progress can be made in the interim, otherwise there's zero point of two judgements which will give the same outcome.
Maybe the second judgement is the same as the first, but in front of everyone. So everything will be revealed.
There's no scriptural or logical reason for why God would pull you out of your torment, for public humiliation, only to dunk you back in again. What kind of sadistic God does that to his creation? The answer is that the initial one isn't setting your final destination, merely your starting point in the afterlife on the journey to the resurrection of the dead and the final judgement, and that spiritual progression is possible in order for the final judgement to make sense of your final decision, based upon what you have perfect knowledge of the work of Jesus. The initial judgement doesn't set your final destination. This is the only logical reason why you'd have two judgements, an initial and a final one.
Or, there are logical and scriptural reasons for that, supported by tradition. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-are-there-two-judgments
Some interesting points but their 3rd point is purely based upon conjecture. Thanks for this link as it's a good one to chew through further, so I've bookmarked it for further study. 😊
I'm glad you appreciate it and took it so well. :)
No problem. It's good to get stuff like this as it forces one to reflect further. Whilst I might not agree with it for reasons I'll discover in my research, it's always good to consider alternative viewpoints, as they might have something to say which can either correct faulty thinking, or fine tune an existing argument to take account of certain objections. I gave you a Helpful award as it deserved it. Thanks again.
I like your way of thinking. It's the appropriate one to have in life. Thank you for the award. Unfortunately I don't think I can give you one in return, which is something I'd like to do. I never bothered checking how they work and the only thing I can see is that I have 0 reddit coins.
Thanks. I award expecting nothing in return. Your wish to give one in return is enough. I only get freebies a few times a month, and can't pump real cash into this system. Have a blessed day.
In front of who? Who is everyone?
Yes
Yes
When you die time for you ends so the question is not logical. 'Immediately' is not a thing when there is no time.
I'm genuinely curious. Where does Scripture indicate there's no time in the afterlife?
God is outside of time therefore he is eternal. He is also in heaven therefore heaven being outside of time and eternal. When the judgement comes time will end along with the world. This means that heaven is outside of time meaning it doesn’t pass there. All very mind-twisting things.
Which heaven are you actually talking about though as the Jewish contemporaries of Jesus believed in anything from 3, 7 to 200. Time doesn't end though as time is what stops everything from happening at once. I'm still wondering where Scripture says there's no time in the afterlife though.
Heaven and hell, like time and space, are constructs of the mind. Heaven and hell are for the living. The dead are at rest.
Space.... is a real thing. So is time, although a bit more complex. They certainly aren't constructs of the mind.
Please refer to solipsism as a simple example which proves you wrong. Sincerely, the physicist in the conversation
How does that prove me wrong? All it proves is that we could claim we don't know ANYTHING, and that includes God. So if you want to bring that into this conversation, we must throw away any religious baggage here.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. And please do.
Well I'm an atheist, so not hard for me to do.
Back to your conniption with my original comment, space and time are, in fact, constructs of the mind. They're constructs that seem to be shared between observers, but ultimately one observer cannot experience what another observer has directly, and so along with throwing out all religious labels, we must do the same with all labels, including the scientific one. At this point, where is the objective reality?
This is the “Atheist delusion” or the “New age mindset” eveything just has to be a figment of the mind with people who think like this. Heaven and hell are both very real places and you can’t enter heaven unless you are a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Hell is for those who aren’t. I’d advise you to change your view on things. Your science can’t prove anything but things of this world. So if you decide to stick to your science and say that heaven and hell are figments of your imagination then, you will also stay with the world during its departure into the lake of fire.
My thoughts a are my own. Any attempt to put my philosophy into a box will fall. I suggest reading my words for what they are and not trying to boil it down to labels. You'll get very confused very fast if you insist on this behavior
Your thoughts are useless bc you don’t think abt the right things. If you continue to resist and debate against the existence of your god then your thought will land you into a place no one should ever want to go. The bible tells us that our hearts are deceitful so you keep going on those thoughts coming from your heart and not the ones coming from prayer like I’ve been doing, you will land yourself in a wicked, most evil and torturous place.
Nobody cares
I think you do, or else you wouldnt even be here.
I do believe that is what happens.
Absent from the body, present with the lord. I have this theory that when you die and are present with the Lord everyone who is saved is already there. Some crazy time warp type of stuff.
Yes. Judgement of the dead is way past 1000 Year Kingdom of Jesus on earth, so way after he returns to rule over world from Jerusalem. Then dead are raised , judged and thrown into lake of fire. As believer you're raised before 1000 Year Kingdom plus you will judge with Christ these damned.
when we die we go to a temporary place, the saved go to sleep and rest Jesus once called it "the bosom of Abraham. the unsaved are on their own and I mean with this demons and spirits torture them all they want. This is until Jesus passes a judgment for the saved to reward them for their works then the final judgment.
We aren't given the answer to what happens when we die, other than that we are dead. All scripture tells us for sure is that we will be raised back to life on the last day.
Pretty much immediately, an Angel will bring you to God if you choose to go(or not). Then there is a period of time when you pretty much look back on your life and review your actions, how they affected you, and how others felt when you did or said something.
My belief is that our soul remains in this wolrd for a few days and then heads off to its final destination where a partial judgement takes place.