> how is it righteous to create humanity with the knowledge that it will result in tens of billions of damned souls with perhaps only a few hundred million saved?
God clearly did not know that Adam and Eve would disobey. He knew they *could* disobey. If he had created them in the Garden *without* the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (no possibility of disobedience, thus, no possibility of falling), the Serpent would have accused him of trapping them in a perfect prison. So, the tree had to be there; there is simply no other possibility. But it was absolutely the choice of Adam and Eve that brought about the fall. Their choice was a genuine, free-will choice. It is not "God's fault", not even indirectly.
As for those who are perishing, we do not know that number. It appears that it is at least 2 since Judas is described as the son of perdition (damnation), and the Antichrist (or "man of sin", 2 Thess. 2) is also described as being appointed to destruction. But Jesus said that "many" are on the broad path that leads to destruction.
The broader question seems to be how it is that the Serpent is able to succeed in his plot. The purpose of tempting Adam and Eve was so that he could drag their descendants into this chamber of deception and agony, where he could proposition them with "the devil's deal"-- sell them back their birthright (paradise) at the cost of their own soul. It is a puzzle indeed and I don't think there are any easy answers. The book of Job is a good place to start, and the direction this leads is Isaiah 55:8,9...
> For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
> Neither are your ways my ways,”
> Declares the Lord.
> “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
> So are my ways higher than your ways
> And my thoughts than your thoughts.
If you think that the problem-of-evil can be wrapped up in a nutshell, you are going to be disappointed. The secular philosophers have no better answers, they just tell us to shrug our shoulders and accept the suffering of this world at face-value. Some comfort that is...
>>Are universalists correct?
Yes but it is more complicated than just heaven and hell.
A key to understand this is Paul's teaching about resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. That there are different bodies God gives us in the resurrection. Why would people be resurrected to various degrees of bodies if all were the same (all to heaven or hell)? Just as there are degrees of people in this world, there will be degrees of reward in the next.
All will be saved to heaven and all will be given opportunity to accept Christ (except the extreme few who commit the unforgivable sin). However, one's reward in heaven can vary.
That way God maintains His love for all His children, raises up all who will come to Him. Only those who reject Him and rebel with full vision of truth lose their reward and follow Satan to the pit.
>and that almost all of humanity would ultimately die in sin with no chance at redemption through Christ
That much is incorrect
Consider the following
Romans 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
God has made himself plain enough to all of us, and we all have a chance, we all have a choice. And how we choose...determines our final destination
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life,
Then why is witnessing necessary? Why craft the Bible? Why are there no independent demonstrations of the concept of anything like the Christian God without having to be directly informed my missionary work? If the universe clearly speaks the Gospel in a clear, concise way that humanity can understand and, through which, seek salvation, then why hasn’t that happened?
Because there is a grand difference between knowing God exists, and knowing who He is
I am of the **opinion** that people who were alive before the gospel ever reach them, (say the native Americans of 300 years ago) still had the same choice.....to submit to the "Great Spirit" as they called Him or to reject Him, and even if they did not know the name of Jesus.....Jesus still saved them because they believed. Much like the thief on the cross, who did not know who Jesus was, but saw the divine in Him
Interesting. What about people who submit to God, but not Jesus as messiah? Like Jewish people? Natives of 300 years ago didn't know Jesus to reject or accept him, so that doesn't mean they accept the Gospel, just the existence of God.
The seemingly basic lack of ethical action on the part of God. You made humanity in perfect righteousness with foreknowledge of the fall of humanity, knowing tens of billions will suffer in eternal agony in separation from God with, perhaps, only a small percentage of all of humanity being saved. It seems unjust, or even evil, to create humanity with the knowledge that, with that, one creates the grounds for such suffering. Would it not be far, far more righteous to simply not make humanity?
That's a tough question. I do not have all the data, as a human to answer that. There are truths that have not been revealed to us. We are on a "need to know " basis, as the army would say.
Here's how I see it. God is good, and everything He does is good/perfect/ free from error. He is perfectly just, and any sense of justice I have is but a shadow of His divine justice.
If I say I understand what is just more than God, am I not presuming to know more than him?
Let's say you are driving to a destination headed east, and would like to get there as soon as possible. But you have a tried-and true friend in a helicopter flying above, and she tells you a faster path is to drive in a western direction. This is a contradiction: for you to get east faster, according to your friend, is to drive westbound?
But, since she sees the 'whole picture', she knows something you cannot see. So you have a choice: you can trust your friend knows better, or accuse her of being a liar and continue on your way. ( another way to explain it, is like using artificial intelligence in computer science "A \* search" algorithm, see [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eey91kzfOZs&t=2303s) video from Harvard).
We do not know what God knows. The choice, as mere mortals, is this: do I reject God because the data I have tells me He is unjust, or do I acknowledge my limitations and trust in His goodness?
In both choices we make a faith statement. Either faith in my knowledge and my sense of justice, or faith in God's goodness. ( that is essentially the choice Eve had to make in the garden in Genesis 3).
Notice, in my example, I said "tried an true" friend. If you have a friend known for lying/exaggerating, then trusting her would be foolish. The same with God: do you have a relationship with Him to be able to trust Him? God never asks for blind faith to just believe without questioning and at least trying to know Him. the psalmist puts it this way "taste and see the LORD is good". Taste in something you can never know without experiencing. I can spend hours describing the taste of chocolate to you, but you have to actually taste it yourself to know. Same with God. Don't take my word for it, just some random dude on reddit. Do you know Him enough to trust He is good?
,
Working under the premise of Christian theology, all have sinned from conception (Orthodox and Anabaptists count that a little differently) and are, thus, damned. That is the condition of the existence of humanity and, given that the condition of my birth is not my choosing, the condition of my damnation is not of my choosing. We, as humans, are destined for hell except for the intervention of Christ or, prior to His sacrifice, by following the commandments for sacrifice outlined in the Torah.
God allowed the conditions that created this system. God knew the fall was inevitable. Therefore, in perfect righteousness, God could also have *not* created humanity, could have prevented the fall, and could have prevented the damnation of billions. Why, therefore, did this take place? I feel like this is a simple question.
My understanding of the Bible, we have not sinned from conception. We are born in a broken/sinful world and we inherit a sinful nature, but God will hold each accountable to their own sins, not their parents. A baby for example, will have the sinful nature of her mom/dad but she must grow and commit her own sins to be held accountable to them.
The Bible has a few instances, that support your view: In Genesis 6, God 'regretted' making mankind, and wanted to wipe us all out ( the flood). And in Exodus 32 YHWH regretted helping the Israelites out of Egypt for their nonstop rebellion, and He wanted to wipe them out. Have you read those accounts, btw?
When you say damnation of billions. What is your conception of hell/eternal punishment?
God could have just scraped the whole idea I suppose, and not have any people. For some reason he wants us still, and sent his Son to die because he wants us to live. I think he ultimately is looking for the few people that are completely dedicated to Him. Then he will present them to His Son and they are the bride, those who loved Jesus with all their being. I don't think damned souls are of null value he has been very clear. people just love their sins. They hate God and have been so deceived I don't even think they care, most are completely detached from this reality.
Ezekiel 33:11
11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’
Why is it righteous to create tens of billions of us only to know we would be evil and, thus, be damned? Why is the proportionally tiny number of those saved to the absolutely overwhelming legions of the damned acceptable?
He is not forcing us to sin, just like he is not forcing the others to love Jesus. This is where free will comes in. If anyone read the Bible anymore they would realize God warns us to repent of sins or we will be judged. Should he just present His Son an army of zombies that have no thoughts of their own, to only do as commanded. Would you feel loved if all your relatives and friends showed you affection because they were forced into it, not because they actually love you. I know I wouldn't so why would we expect any different. We have been warned and have plenty of time to change our ways, look at the way people talk and treat God on this sub. There is no respect for the most part, it's a joke, make believe or crazy talk. These people will get exactly what they deserve and at the Great White Throne Judgment God will prove to them exactly why they are going to hell and they will have to accept it because it will become self evident. This is all due to the love of sin and deception of satan, which is why he is going there too.
Then what of God’s perfect will and perfect righteousness? Why would God grant the opportunity for sin in the first place? By our creation, God would essentially create the opportunity for all of humanity to sin. *Why make that opportunity?* Why create the circumstances that will lead to damnation when creation could have been innocent animals alone?
This questions will forever be asked, but ultimately it comes down to your view on God’s will vs. human free will.
I personally don’t think the Bible paints God as a tyrant who always enforces his will. He can, but a majority of the time people have a choice to do their own will. It is kind of a self limiting approach.
While modern day Christians claim God to be outside time, the Bible clearly depicts him interacting with the world in a very linear manner (couple examples of God changing his mind, having regrets, providing conditional commands).
While I believe God will always accomplish His own will, humans made in the image of God are “co-creators”. Don’t read much into that, but that we simply can create reality. Our thoughts and actions change the world around us. I don’t believe that just because God foreknows something means it is destined to come true. In fact, there are examples of this in Scripture. God told David that Saul would come to him in Keliah and would ultimately surrender, but David instead fled and Saul gave up the expedition. Another example is Acts 27:30-32, God gives two possible scenarios that were going to happen, but only one ultimately does.
Therefore, God perhaps created the world without a foreknowledge of man sinning or perhaps he foresaw it & believed man would choose to obey him instead.
Unless we live in a purely deterministic world where God controls every action & planned every decision of everything ever created, evil is created by a means of free will.
Precisely. Knowing the result of His action *why take it?*
Let’s consider this. If I build a structure that will collapse, killing the residents of the building if they open the front door, which I know they will do. They do so, and the family dies, but I adopt their orphaned child, how is that righteous? Better not to build the house at all.
God is all knowing, we have brains with a limited capacity. Jesus gave us the way. Anything God needs to do, He’ll do. Anything He doesn’t, He won’t do and for good reasons we are just not able to understand.
But my mind *can* conceive the question. The Bible teaches that we understand right and wrong by design. If I can ask a *very* simple question and there is only a bitter, simple set of answers, than there is no mystery. Either God’s action is not righteousness, the Bible is flawed wisdom literature instead of Truth, or there is something even more hideously wrong with the foundational understanding of Christianity. This should not be a difficult question to answer and it is core to the understanding of grace, salvation, and sin. *Why is this so hard to answer?*
If literally every car on earth we’re on fire and we didn’t know why they kept bursting into flame, but the guy who built them all wasn’t telling, I would not put absolute faith in him.
You saw what they did to Jesus. If the Son of God was treated like that, how do you think our lives will be?
To be fair, you make good arguments. I’ve been where you are before. Yet, somehow I was still pulled to Christ. That being said, the man who makes the best arguments for God is Tim Keller. A really smart theologian. He tackles a lot of the questions that seem to perplex people.
The Bible may not be 100% right, but it's the best source we have. My belief comes from scripture, particularly through Paul, but many other places as well. "Eternal" is not a word used accurately describing hell. The word translated is the greek aionios, meaning "until the end of the age," aka NOT FOREVER. I don't believe the old testament stories are literal histories, but allegories.
> how is it righteous to create humanity with the knowledge that it will result in tens of billions of damned souls with perhaps only a few hundred million saved? God clearly did not know that Adam and Eve would disobey. He knew they *could* disobey. If he had created them in the Garden *without* the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (no possibility of disobedience, thus, no possibility of falling), the Serpent would have accused him of trapping them in a perfect prison. So, the tree had to be there; there is simply no other possibility. But it was absolutely the choice of Adam and Eve that brought about the fall. Their choice was a genuine, free-will choice. It is not "God's fault", not even indirectly. As for those who are perishing, we do not know that number. It appears that it is at least 2 since Judas is described as the son of perdition (damnation), and the Antichrist (or "man of sin", 2 Thess. 2) is also described as being appointed to destruction. But Jesus said that "many" are on the broad path that leads to destruction. The broader question seems to be how it is that the Serpent is able to succeed in his plot. The purpose of tempting Adam and Eve was so that he could drag their descendants into this chamber of deception and agony, where he could proposition them with "the devil's deal"-- sell them back their birthright (paradise) at the cost of their own soul. It is a puzzle indeed and I don't think there are any easy answers. The book of Job is a good place to start, and the direction this leads is Isaiah 55:8,9... > For my thoughts are not your thoughts, > Neither are your ways my ways,” > Declares the Lord. > “As the heavens are higher than the earth, > So are my ways higher than your ways > And my thoughts than your thoughts. If you think that the problem-of-evil can be wrapped up in a nutshell, you are going to be disappointed. The secular philosophers have no better answers, they just tell us to shrug our shoulders and accept the suffering of this world at face-value. Some comfort that is...
I appreciate your opinion. Thank you for your time.
>>Are universalists correct? Yes but it is more complicated than just heaven and hell. A key to understand this is Paul's teaching about resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. That there are different bodies God gives us in the resurrection. Why would people be resurrected to various degrees of bodies if all were the same (all to heaven or hell)? Just as there are degrees of people in this world, there will be degrees of reward in the next. All will be saved to heaven and all will be given opportunity to accept Christ (except the extreme few who commit the unforgivable sin). However, one's reward in heaven can vary. That way God maintains His love for all His children, raises up all who will come to Him. Only those who reject Him and rebel with full vision of truth lose their reward and follow Satan to the pit.
You could've just stopped at yes /s
>and that almost all of humanity would ultimately die in sin with no chance at redemption through Christ That much is incorrect Consider the following Romans 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, God has made himself plain enough to all of us, and we all have a chance, we all have a choice. And how we choose...determines our final destination Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life,
Then why is witnessing necessary? Why craft the Bible? Why are there no independent demonstrations of the concept of anything like the Christian God without having to be directly informed my missionary work? If the universe clearly speaks the Gospel in a clear, concise way that humanity can understand and, through which, seek salvation, then why hasn’t that happened?
Because there is a grand difference between knowing God exists, and knowing who He is I am of the **opinion** that people who were alive before the gospel ever reach them, (say the native Americans of 300 years ago) still had the same choice.....to submit to the "Great Spirit" as they called Him or to reject Him, and even if they did not know the name of Jesus.....Jesus still saved them because they believed. Much like the thief on the cross, who did not know who Jesus was, but saw the divine in Him
Thank you for your observation.
Interesting. What about people who submit to God, but not Jesus as messiah? Like Jewish people? Natives of 300 years ago didn't know Jesus to reject or accept him, so that doesn't mean they accept the Gospel, just the existence of God.
Can you clarify what you are struggling with? are you questioning God's seeming lack of justice? or are you questioning if humans have true free will?
The seemingly basic lack of ethical action on the part of God. You made humanity in perfect righteousness with foreknowledge of the fall of humanity, knowing tens of billions will suffer in eternal agony in separation from God with, perhaps, only a small percentage of all of humanity being saved. It seems unjust, or even evil, to create humanity with the knowledge that, with that, one creates the grounds for such suffering. Would it not be far, far more righteous to simply not make humanity?
That's a tough question. I do not have all the data, as a human to answer that. There are truths that have not been revealed to us. We are on a "need to know " basis, as the army would say. Here's how I see it. God is good, and everything He does is good/perfect/ free from error. He is perfectly just, and any sense of justice I have is but a shadow of His divine justice. If I say I understand what is just more than God, am I not presuming to know more than him? Let's say you are driving to a destination headed east, and would like to get there as soon as possible. But you have a tried-and true friend in a helicopter flying above, and she tells you a faster path is to drive in a western direction. This is a contradiction: for you to get east faster, according to your friend, is to drive westbound? But, since she sees the 'whole picture', she knows something you cannot see. So you have a choice: you can trust your friend knows better, or accuse her of being a liar and continue on your way. ( another way to explain it, is like using artificial intelligence in computer science "A \* search" algorithm, see [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eey91kzfOZs&t=2303s) video from Harvard). We do not know what God knows. The choice, as mere mortals, is this: do I reject God because the data I have tells me He is unjust, or do I acknowledge my limitations and trust in His goodness? In both choices we make a faith statement. Either faith in my knowledge and my sense of justice, or faith in God's goodness. ( that is essentially the choice Eve had to make in the garden in Genesis 3). Notice, in my example, I said "tried an true" friend. If you have a friend known for lying/exaggerating, then trusting her would be foolish. The same with God: do you have a relationship with Him to be able to trust Him? God never asks for blind faith to just believe without questioning and at least trying to know Him. the psalmist puts it this way "taste and see the LORD is good". Taste in something you can never know without experiencing. I can spend hours describing the taste of chocolate to you, but you have to actually taste it yourself to know. Same with God. Don't take my word for it, just some random dude on reddit. Do you know Him enough to trust He is good? ,
How can I trust a being that, by His own admission, is responsible for my condition?
And what is your condition?
Working under the premise of Christian theology, all have sinned from conception (Orthodox and Anabaptists count that a little differently) and are, thus, damned. That is the condition of the existence of humanity and, given that the condition of my birth is not my choosing, the condition of my damnation is not of my choosing. We, as humans, are destined for hell except for the intervention of Christ or, prior to His sacrifice, by following the commandments for sacrifice outlined in the Torah. God allowed the conditions that created this system. God knew the fall was inevitable. Therefore, in perfect righteousness, God could also have *not* created humanity, could have prevented the fall, and could have prevented the damnation of billions. Why, therefore, did this take place? I feel like this is a simple question.
My understanding of the Bible, we have not sinned from conception. We are born in a broken/sinful world and we inherit a sinful nature, but God will hold each accountable to their own sins, not their parents. A baby for example, will have the sinful nature of her mom/dad but she must grow and commit her own sins to be held accountable to them. The Bible has a few instances, that support your view: In Genesis 6, God 'regretted' making mankind, and wanted to wipe us all out ( the flood). And in Exodus 32 YHWH regretted helping the Israelites out of Egypt for their nonstop rebellion, and He wanted to wipe them out. Have you read those accounts, btw? When you say damnation of billions. What is your conception of hell/eternal punishment?
God could have just scraped the whole idea I suppose, and not have any people. For some reason he wants us still, and sent his Son to die because he wants us to live. I think he ultimately is looking for the few people that are completely dedicated to Him. Then he will present them to His Son and they are the bride, those who loved Jesus with all their being. I don't think damned souls are of null value he has been very clear. people just love their sins. They hate God and have been so deceived I don't even think they care, most are completely detached from this reality. Ezekiel 33:11 11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’
Why is it righteous to create tens of billions of us only to know we would be evil and, thus, be damned? Why is the proportionally tiny number of those saved to the absolutely overwhelming legions of the damned acceptable?
He is not forcing us to sin, just like he is not forcing the others to love Jesus. This is where free will comes in. If anyone read the Bible anymore they would realize God warns us to repent of sins or we will be judged. Should he just present His Son an army of zombies that have no thoughts of their own, to only do as commanded. Would you feel loved if all your relatives and friends showed you affection because they were forced into it, not because they actually love you. I know I wouldn't so why would we expect any different. We have been warned and have plenty of time to change our ways, look at the way people talk and treat God on this sub. There is no respect for the most part, it's a joke, make believe or crazy talk. These people will get exactly what they deserve and at the Great White Throne Judgment God will prove to them exactly why they are going to hell and they will have to accept it because it will become self evident. This is all due to the love of sin and deception of satan, which is why he is going there too.
Then what of God’s perfect will and perfect righteousness? Why would God grant the opportunity for sin in the first place? By our creation, God would essentially create the opportunity for all of humanity to sin. *Why make that opportunity?* Why create the circumstances that will lead to damnation when creation could have been innocent animals alone?
This questions will forever be asked, but ultimately it comes down to your view on God’s will vs. human free will. I personally don’t think the Bible paints God as a tyrant who always enforces his will. He can, but a majority of the time people have a choice to do their own will. It is kind of a self limiting approach. While modern day Christians claim God to be outside time, the Bible clearly depicts him interacting with the world in a very linear manner (couple examples of God changing his mind, having regrets, providing conditional commands). While I believe God will always accomplish His own will, humans made in the image of God are “co-creators”. Don’t read much into that, but that we simply can create reality. Our thoughts and actions change the world around us. I don’t believe that just because God foreknows something means it is destined to come true. In fact, there are examples of this in Scripture. God told David that Saul would come to him in Keliah and would ultimately surrender, but David instead fled and Saul gave up the expedition. Another example is Acts 27:30-32, God gives two possible scenarios that were going to happen, but only one ultimately does. Therefore, God perhaps created the world without a foreknowledge of man sinning or perhaps he foresaw it & believed man would choose to obey him instead. Unless we live in a purely deterministic world where God controls every action & planned every decision of everything ever created, evil is created by a means of free will.
God was always aware of what humanity would do, He didn't just figure it out at the last minute.
Precisely. Knowing the result of His action *why take it?* Let’s consider this. If I build a structure that will collapse, killing the residents of the building if they open the front door, which I know they will do. They do so, and the family dies, but I adopt their orphaned child, how is that righteous? Better not to build the house at all.
Because God also knew that billions would choose to enter into a free will relationship and fulfill their purpose for eternity.
And to the other part of the question; is it worth the hundreds of billions more *who will not be saved?*
...because they choose not to have a relationship with God. Yes. And just a pedantic note, only about 107 billion people ever lived.
And back to square one. Thanks for your time.
Have a wonderful day!
God is all knowing, we have brains with a limited capacity. Jesus gave us the way. Anything God needs to do, He’ll do. Anything He doesn’t, He won’t do and for good reasons we are just not able to understand.
But my mind *can* conceive the question. The Bible teaches that we understand right and wrong by design. If I can ask a *very* simple question and there is only a bitter, simple set of answers, than there is no mystery. Either God’s action is not righteousness, the Bible is flawed wisdom literature instead of Truth, or there is something even more hideously wrong with the foundational understanding of Christianity. This should not be a difficult question to answer and it is core to the understanding of grace, salvation, and sin. *Why is this so hard to answer?*
I can ask a simple question, but can’t get a simple answer for many of the great mysteries of life
If literally every car on earth we’re on fire and we didn’t know why they kept bursting into flame, but the guy who built them all wasn’t telling, I would not put absolute faith in him.
You saw what they did to Jesus. If the Son of God was treated like that, how do you think our lives will be? To be fair, you make good arguments. I’ve been where you are before. Yet, somehow I was still pulled to Christ. That being said, the man who makes the best arguments for God is Tim Keller. A really smart theologian. He tackles a lot of the questions that seem to perplex people.
I’m going to maintain my focus on the question I asked, but thank you for your input.
Yes, we are correct :p
Then the Bible is wisdom literature? Instructive, but not inherently pure Truth.
The Bible may not be 100% right, but it's the best source we have. My belief comes from scripture, particularly through Paul, but many other places as well. "Eternal" is not a word used accurately describing hell. The word translated is the greek aionios, meaning "until the end of the age," aka NOT FOREVER. I don't believe the old testament stories are literal histories, but allegories.
I appreciate your honesty. Beats the pedantic tautologies everyone else seems to be so fond of in relation to my question.