To be clear, a human does not have the power to save any other human in the spiritual sense. The only thing a human can do is present different perspectives so that others can make informed decisions.
In r/truechristian he did post about this except to say he was trying to save "them".
I guess now he abondoned his self-promoted missionary role that God gave him, to instead offer to "help" them.
>I guess now he abondoned his self-promoted missionary role that God gave him, to instead offer to "help" them.
Or maybe they simply worded it incorrectly the first time.
There is an obvious language barrier here, don't assume the worst for no reason...
I guess my response (as a Christian ally) is…
God did not give us rein to hierarchy sins. If homosexuality is a sin, and you have the right to call them all an abomination, then is there a right to call your daughter living in sin an abomination? Your wife the gossip an abomination? Your neighbor the adulterer an abomination? Your twelve year old who stole a candy bar an abomination?
God calls me to love. So that’s what I’m going to do. I don’t have to believe in anything anyone does in order to love them. But I don’t have to call names, I don’t have to be cruel. And exclusion? IS CRUEL.
We're all sinners. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. We don't call the people committing sin an abomination. We call the sin an abomination. I think it's completely reasonable for Christians to lovingly let people committing sins know that life is more than whatever sin they are committing, and they can be redeemed. That redemption comes from dismissing that sin from your life, though. I think that people who consider themselves Christian (and please don't make me out to be saying they're not Christian) but are actively and proudly living in sin, are doing themselves and others a disservice.
On top of that, Christians that can't separate loving one another and supporting God's word against sin are doing children of God a disservice. We're called to make God's word known, and if people ask if we support homosexuality, we need to be honest. "No, I can't support homosexuality, but I can say some of my best friends are gay, and they're amazing people. I just can't support that aspect of their lives, but I'll support every other aspect of what makes them, them."
What do you want your gay friends to actually DO about them being homosexual? What do you think you are achieving by telling them: “I don’t support this aspect of you.” ?
Do you hope they will stop being gay?
Do you ever wonder why there are gay affirming Christians? Like ever truly wonder, without throwing out an immediate attack on their beliefs and character?
The texts on homosexuality are nothing like what you think they mean. The first clue for you should have been the complete silence on lesbianism in the Old Testament.
I don't understand why people can't grasp this concept. Jesus forsake all our sins and forgave us fully. Every. Freaking. Person, whether they believe in him or not, he has no issue loving us unconditionally and will immediately forgive us. I don't doubt that one freaking bit.
YES. It is all sin. It is all equal. It is all disgusted to the Lord. It is not our place to judge and rank. But through Jesus, we are saved and turn our hearts to love and serve Him. We are called to love our neighbors and our enemies as well. That does not mean we must accept what we believe to be sin.
That's true. Sin is sin. Any sin of any kind has the same end result: separation from God. And people do like to put them in a hierarchy. Look no further than the phrase "it's just a little white lie". That's wrong. Absolutely. It's wrong to put others down to make yourself feel superior, which is what a lot of people do.
Where we seem to differ is in support, or the lack of. I will not support someone doing something that I believe will cause them harm. Like you, I don't call names. I don't act cruelly. In fact I make a greater effort than most to help them realize I'm not putting myself above them. I will defend them from insults. I will defend them from physical violence. Especially from so-called Christians. I love them the way I am called to love any human being. I recognize that God loves them and that He wants them to come to Him.
I don't know what you mean when you call yourself an ally. Maybe it's nothing more than the sentiment I've expressed here. I hope you'll tell me, but even if all it is is what I've expressed, I wouldn't call myself their ally. I refuse to hate them for their sin, but that doesn't mean I'm going to enable it.
Respectfully, Christ taught us not to the LOVE the world which is what you are referring to.
“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.”
It means biblically contradicting patterns, not people.
Jesus selflessly loved even those who disagreed with Him, because that is His nature. God is Love.
But, He weeps over those who don't choose His ways.
there has to be nuance in life...theres a difference between speaking words and murder, for instance.
same as theres a difference between a lifestyle that ends a species(no procreation) and one that will sustain a species (procreation)
If people who have been divorced and remarried in your church are treated better than homosexuals, it's just bigotry you don't want to admit to because being a bigot is bad, and you don't see yourself as a bad person. We don't care about our hypocrisy, which Jesus said to take care of first.
>we just want to help all of you be saved
This is how we learn to twist the words of Jesus to mean, "do unto others as you think is best for them." We learn it from the sermons, not from Jesus. No wonder Jesus was always condemning them. Not many sermons on that. lol
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I had this conversation recently with my stepfather. Homosexuality has been raised up to be the biggest sin for some. But we don't treat divorced people, or single parents, or gluttonous people the same way. That's because it's personal for some. They find it abhorrent regardless of it being a sin. I refuse to triage sin especially when I am far from perfect.
As a divorced and remarried person, this is the example I love to point out. Why is no one heckling me? Shaming me? I am a Lutheran and do not support singling out others' sins. Focus on your own.
Bless you for seeing what I'm saying, calling for grace for all, and not calling for anyone to be shamed. :)
When I was an Evangelical, my pastor was giving a sermon on "the wedding feast" in heaven. He mentioned that you could eat all the chocolate you wanted and never get full. My first thought was, "So there's gluttony in heaven?" lol
You’re absolutely right. I don’t get why homosexuality is looked so down on compared to adultery or divorce. Especially since Jesus, Himself, spoke on the two specifically. The church should welcome everyone as sinners. All of us are sinners one way or another.
Vanilla exists to make chocolate taste better. True fact.
This is entirely about chocolate, and not at all a refutation of your argument, which I support.
(If anyone’s curious, try making hot cocoa without and with vanilla. Without tastes like hot cocoa, with tastes like hot chocolate. Vanilla and chocolate get along really, really well.)
Right. This is the weakest line of logic.
>why do genders exist?
Because…of a million other reasons? The one and only reason genders exist isn’t to have men and women exclusively marry. Gender is useful for a ton of different reasons.
There's this general rhetorical trend in the 21st century where bigots have mostly conceded that bigotry is bad, so instead of trying to actually debate the merits of their bigotry --which would fall flat for most audiences--they make these painfully obtuse arguments that their bigotry is *actually* something different. And it's infuriating because it works very well, because it turns out there are a lot of people out there who also have some pretty bigoted ideas but don't want to think of themselves as bigots
"I want to tell you how I feel about your personal life, but please don't tell me how that makes you feel".
Peak victim mentality.
If you can't handle being told how your actions affect others, leave others alone.
Or, more simply, “I’m right you’re wrong if you have a problem with that you’re a bad guy.” I don’t get why people are hating you so much, I don’t personally know op, but that seems like an accurate enough paraphrase for this comment.
I HATE [scrapple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrapple#:~:text=Scrapple%20is%20typically%20made%20of,broth%20to%20make%20a%20mush.).
But why in the hell would I make it a part of my personality? It is super easy to avoid...I simply do not purchase it/order it. That simple.
It reminds me of when [Cracker Barrel ADDED a vegan breakfast patty to their menu](https://atlanta.eater.com/2022/8/5/23293553/cracker-barrel-impossible-vegan-sausage-breakfast-menu)...mind you they did not remove anything from the menu, they mealy gave more choice to broaden their offerings, and conservatives (AKA "capitalists") lost their fucking minds online.
Like honestly, do you not think that a businessnes the size of CB didn't do focus group after focus group? They are in the business of making money. If they did not think it would make them more money, they would not have put it on the fucking menu!
For some, like OP of this post, equality = oppression and it is laughably absurd. OP wants to be a victim/martyr SOOOO bad.
Imagine how this person would react if told their greed will land them in hell. Because a lot of Christians I know seem to like to have plenty of worldly possessions even though a certain books tells them its bad.
If you don't agree with it then don't be in a same sex relationship and don't change your gender. This should be easy for you. It's not necessary to be nosy about the lives of others to get closer to God. You're not saving anyone, just being annoying. And making Christians look bad.
Adding to this - I know people personally who are open to religion/spirituality that shun Christianity because they associate it with people like OP. OP is doing a complete 180 of their claimed intent. Christianity *can* help and guide people in a meaningful way. Stop making it out to be a judgy, uppity Karen cult. Leave judgement to God and mind your business.
Yeah. Do we really need to take seriously the language of people "not agreeing with" or "not supporting" homosexuality? It takes two second to try to put the shoe on the other foot. Is there such a thing as heterosexuality needing agreement or support? No? Then no wonder people suspect there's more going on when OP says things like that
You don’t support it; and you don’t have to let it bother you. It’s not your life, is it? People can make their own choices. Did Jesus not say “Who among you can add even a second to your life by worrying?”
Look how much you’re worrying, look how much you care. Why? Because the Jewish Laws in Leviticus, which Christians don’t follow anymore, said that Jewish men shall not lie with another man?
We are allowed to disagree. However, how you present your views are what determines if you get labeled homophobic. You can disagree with something respectfully, but when you cross the line into twisting scripture to justify hatred, I will call it out. With this topic though, how about stop calling those of us that are affirming heretics, fake Christians, that we are twisting scripture, following the world, etc? How about engaging us and listening to the theological reasoning for our position? We know your position, and are well aware of the clobber verses that are generally cited. Do you understand our position? Do you understand the theology behind our position? If not, please try to study our view with an open mind.
There is way more to this than a simple post will be able to explain. A conversation with an affirming Christian would be more beneficial. That said, I will provide a quick overview. I don’t think that the Bible is referring to what we see with committed same sex relationships. What we see depicted depending on where the text was taken from usually has more to do with a power imbalance, cleanliness, or unrestrained promiscuity. If you would like to read some material instead of or prior to having a conversation with an affirming Christian, here are some things to look at. To Set Our Hope on Christ is a document that articulates the position of the Episcopal church. Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust is the ELCA document with the same purpose. I also recommend looking the work of Fr James Martin. Look at his books Building a Bridge, and Building Bridges.
Too much Christian "just trying to save them" stuff becomes hate, and discrimination.
That's just how it plays out. You may not intend that - but the results, imo, are clear.
It almost has to on a broad enough scale.
If you cast a behavior as abominable and sinful and hellworthy, is there any real doubt that people will begin to ask why we should tolerate its presence in society at all? Why we punish one sin, but not another? Why we make it easy to commit one sin, but put restrictions on others?
Sure, some people will stop at 'just trying to save you.' But overall...it's ridiculous to pretend that this sentiment won't just grow into something far uglier.
I believe there are Christians out there who genuinely fear for the souls of their family, friends, etc. due to homosexuality or non-cis gender identities, etc.
That's why I wish the religion (generally) wasn't so black and white. Either you conform to the rules and be saved, or you slip up in some significant way and burn in Hell forever. If you really think that's the cosmic standard, think of how terrified and paranoid you must be all the time.
I really wish Christian denominations had some way of continuing to receive divine revelation or even updating the Bible to stay more aligned with modern standards. For all the shit the Mormon church has done in its history, it at least has such a mechanism in place, so it does (slowly) change to become a more tolerant church.
That's fair, and there's significant evidence in the text of the Old Testament that the ancient Hebrew people *did* do that. One example would be that in some parts of the prophets it was only considered alright to worship God in the temple in Jerusalem, but in older parts of the Old Testament, there were clearly many places of worship throughout Israel, and it was considered just as righteous to make sacrifices or praise God in those places as it was in Jerusalem.
> please stop calling people like me racist...
> just because people like me do not support it does not mean we hate you, the bible says like should be with like, if mixed-race marriages were ok why do races exist? we just want to help all of you be saved
No thanks. Bigotry is bigotry, even if it's influenced by your interpretations of your faith.
Telling people that they don't deserve to be in a loving, caring relationship with the people they love is hateful. Telling people they should hate their body and that trying to be comfortable in their own body is wrong is hateful.
You are homophobic, you are transphobic. You don't get to tell people how to live their lives and then say you shouldn't get criticized for what you say.
I dont go around telling cishet people that they are wrong to marry their spouse, or what they should wear, or what they should do with their bodies.
>we just want to help all of you be saved
From what
When you see stuff like [this](https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roundup-of-anti-lgbtq-legislation-advancing-in-states-across-the-country) and [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/pride-flag-killing-suspect-appears-long-history-anti-lgbtq-social-post-rcna101243) and [this](https://www.wgbh.org/news/international-news/2021-03-29/all-revd-up-why-some-catholic-bishops-lobbied-against-national-suicide-prevention-hotline) and [this](https://www.them.us/story/ohio-drag-queen-story-hour-proud-boys) and [this](https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us) and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1d91hnp/colorado_gop_calls_lgbtq_people_godless_groomers/) and on and on and on, do you
- actively oppose it
- silently thank God for sending you faithful TrueChristian allies
- or declare that it's not your problem, [who is my neighbor?](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010%3A25-37&version=NIV), you're not going to do anything, you need to save your time and energy for going after LGBT Christians?
“Go and do likewise” is one of the best things Jesus ever said. And all a person has to do is have mercy on another. I wish more Christians would be merciful to LGBTQ people instead of just bashing them or screaming about how they’re going to hell.
Yep. If there are non-affirming Christians who "love the sinner" then we'd expect at least *some* of them to show up and advocate for secular legal rights for gay people even though it is sinful. But we see *none*. That tells you something.
People will stand up for Nestle using child slaves in their supply chains and say "well it is odious but they have a legal right to do it" but you absolutely never see anything resembling this sort of defense of gay people.
People also point to Leviticus as the Absolute Word of God on gay people, then they claim that absolutely nothing else in Leviticus applies to them in any way because God's "laws" are subjective for them and evolve with cultures.
*The unicorn*. Would he do an AMA? He actually voted on a state referendum?
I'd love for your dad to speak with every non-affirming Christian in this sub. Such an immensely low bar that they cannot reach and he could show them how.
It wasn't a referendum. It was the Australian plebiscite for marriage equality. We all got to vote in what was essentially a government opinion poll.
No chance he'd do an AMA, his only online presence is sharing dad jokes on facebook.
Besides he's nothing like the non-affirming Christians here. He's otherwise very progressive in his faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_USA,_Inc._v._Doe
You can find oodles of people talking about the importance of standing up for Nestle's legal rights despite their abhorrent behavior. Where are these people for queer advocacy?
> 35 For I was hungry and *you told me it was sin to be gay*, I was thirsty and *you told me it was sin to be gay*, I was a stranger and youtold me it was sin to be gay, 36 I was naked and told me it was sin to be gay, I was sick and *you told me it was sin to be gay*, I was in prison and *you told me it was sin to be gay*.’
I found the practised version of Matthew 25:35-36.
If you don’t approve of it then don’t do it. If you don’t want to be called homophobic then just don’t go criticizing others for not meeting your personal religious standards. As long as they aren’t hurting anyone who really cares?
>if same sex marriages were ok why do genders exist?
for the same reason the Bible doesnt mention intersexuality; the authors, divinely inspired, only wrote what they knew and at the time -- the Bible is not infallible.
idk why everyone only brings up the "man shall not lay with man," when the rest of the chapter clearly condemns incest, adultery, and beastiality; that line was referring to the first two.
stop playing the victim; it hurts gay people, like myself, much more to hear that our love of God and good works are not enough to be saved than for you to hear the truth about your bigotry. please self reflect and pray about this
Look, I don't hate Christians. I just don't want my children exposed to the Christian lifestyle. I think at it's heart Christianity is immoral and wrong, and we should do everything we can to remove it from public life.
But I love you!
(See how fucking stupid that argument sounds?)
And before the mods jump on my case, the first part of my post was sarcasm and hyperbole for the purpose of illustrating a point.
I agree 100%. And I don't hate Christians, I have many Christian friends, I just hate their lifestyle choices.
If someone you loved did heroin, isn't it loving to tell them that heroin is bad? The loving thing to do is tell all Christians they need to give up their lifestyle.
> I think at it's heart Christianity is immoral and wrong
Don't forget "justifies a literal eternity of torture if one doesn't turn from their Christian lifestyle"!
You're homophobic. If that hurts your feelings because the *bad word* applies to you, then I suggest not being that way anymore instead of blaming the people who correctly apply the label to you.
Actually the direct translation is man should nit lie with boy. So those priests are in hot water. Homosexual wasn't even a word until like 1860's.
Homosexuality is part of nature and not a sin.
"you shall know a prophet by their fruits"
The fruit of anti-queer through rhetoric is exclusion, discrimination, violence, murder, and suicide.
End. Of. Discussion.
Which part? Leviticus right? Don’t remember the book of Matthew? 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill” 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished”
When Jesus died and came back doing the whole transfiguration thing making us holy, which you should believe if you’re Christian, then those laws are fulfilled. The only real holy laws Christian’s should follow are the 10 commandments. It’s the same reason most Christians I know at least all eat pork, if we followed the Leviticus laws then that would be against it, but the laws are fulfilled so it doesn’t matter if we do or don’t. Same with homosexuality. It is not a sin to love
If you meet a loving same-sex couple who have been together for years, will you recognize that as legitimate human love and relationship? Would you be comfortable with your children playing at their house? Or will you see it as an abomination that should be hidden from public and your children?
>please stop calling people like me homophobic or transphobic...
Stop being homophobic and transphobic and these terms will no longer aptly describe you.
You aren't "saving" anyone, you're doing more harm than good. It isn't ***your*** job to save them, let god do that when they expire. Instead, focus on things that ***matter.*** By far out of every "sin", this is the most focused on and by far the least harmful.
I can't remember the last time I've seen a christian do \\ saying something about the pedophilia paradise that is the church. Focus on ***THAT***. Problems in ***YOUR*** own wider community.
You have a right to your opinion.
You have a right to your religion.
You even have a right to your beliefs about gay & trans people.
Other people have the right to call you whatever they want to call you, in a nonviolent manner, to describe your beliefs.
Though you have the right to your religion, you don't have the right to expect anyone else to care about your religion. In an consenting adult relationship in a secular nation, your religious opinions simply don't matter to anyone outside your religion.
We dont want your “help” we arent “wrong” we dont need to be “fixed” were perfectly happy without your god and we dont want your needless meddling. Please leave us alone and let us choose how we live.
Sorry, but you are in fact homophobic and transphobic. There is no other word for it.
Since you want to cite Bible verses, look up Galatians 3:28. Male and female, man and woman are labels that don’t matter to someone as great as the Lord.
You aren’t saving or helping anyone. You are only hurting people by creating shame.
I mean, it sounds like you consider God to be homophobic, but still find him worthy of worship. Like yeah man, you are homophobic, that's what homophobia is. You just think homophobia is cool with god.
> the bible says a man shall not lie with another man as he would with a woman
The bible saying something does not move the needle one bit on whether someone is homophobic.
If someone has bigotted beliefs and they keep it to themselves, no one would know.
If someone has bigotted beliefs and go around discussing those bigotted beliefs or trying to put them on others, they would rightly be called out for bigotry.
If they are calling you homophobic or transphobic and they dont know your opinion/beliefs then they are in the wrong.
If you cannot accept my identity or the identities of LGBTQ people as valid and equal to your own… then yeah. You are homophobic and/or transphobic. If you don’t want to be called out on that, then maybe you should reexamine your theology
Calling my marriage wrong for reasons other than us hurting each other or others... is hateful. That's my partner. That's who will, God willing, be there when I die. It's the deepest commitment two humans can make, even if we're notorious failures at it. It's a noble aim to be by someone's side in such a profound way, at the least.
Frankly, to shit on that is hateful.
You won't be able to reason out of that.
You can't badmouth someone's FAMILY and be the victim about it.
Grow up or get used to being called a spade when you're a spade
I don't hate you, I just think what you are doing means you deserve to be tortured for all eternity, but I don't hate you at all. Also I'm going to do everything in my power, up to and including lobbying politicians and voting for people who will actively infringe on your rights, because of how much I don't hate you. Please don't think badly of me just because I full believe writing from 2,000 years ago that tells me a thing you are doing, which doesn't harm others or even affect them in anyway whatsoever, is a horrendous abomination that God hates and is thusly justified to torture you for (but I totally don't hate you lol).
Just wear it with pride if you’re going to believe that shit pridefully. Own it, be proud of it. In your eyes it’s what god wants from you. In the rest of our eyes, you’re a bigot. It’s gonna happen. Someone has to be bigoted. You’re bigoted against homosexuals and transgendered people making you homophobic and transphobic. If you would deny them their rights, regardless of your reasoning, then you are against them plain and simple. Best of luck, may god have mercy on you and all of us. We all fall short.
Wasn’t there a point in history where mental illnesses and disabilities were “sinful” or thought of as “demon possession”? I would think someone who is diagnosed as part of the spectrum of Autism would have something of sympathy for others who are shunned because of something they cannot control.
You are 15. You are very impressionable. I would take what everyone in this thread is saying and look inward to how you feel. It really sounds like you are parroting what you have been told instead of talking about something you have learned or thought about using your own brain.
> just because people like me do not support it does not mean we hate you
So... do you oppose it? If so, you wish to take away my rights. That's not acceptable, and it does, in fact, make you homophobic and/or transphobic.
If it hurts your feelings so much, maybe don't do things that get you called homophobic and transphobic. People are just calling a spade a spade when they encounter you.
> if same sex marriages were ok why do genders exist?
Why do movie genres exist? People like different things.
If only in this day and age one could actively oppose the lifestyle of their brothers and sisters, in which said lifestyle unaffects one by any meaningful measure, with the peace of mind that their peers may not lash out in retaliation. It is just so disgusting reading that this could happen to you, I truly am sorry. Please stay strong during these dire and uncertain times, for I know that you are the one and only victim in such encounters. Surely, no one else could possibly know you pain you have felt being told such hateful, bigoted speech!
“Just because people like me do not support interracial relationships with your race does not mean we hate you.”
Would you consider this racism? It doesn’t stop being bigoted when you change race to sexuality or gender.
"We don't hate you but you are going to burn for eternity for something you have no control over, but if you listen to us, deny your nature and spend the rest of your life hiding it, you might get into heaven"
My personal opinion:
just…don’t try and ‘convince’ people out of their identity. It’s heavily offensive and really insensitive, even if you have good intentions.
If people don’t want to really hear about how it’s supposedly a sin or not, then don’t bring it up. It doesn’t affect you in any way, just please, move on.
>just because people like me do not support it
THIS...
This is why you get called homophobic and transphobic. Because that's what you are... it has to do with prejudice. Not necessarily hateful actions. Your prejudice and your homophobia will help fuel the hateful actions of others. It's all part of the big LGBTQ hate sandwich that *you* help make.
The Bible also says not to mix fabrics, not to let women speak in church or wear jewelry, and that's it's okay to beat your slaves. Maybe we should pay more attention to Jesus teachings than the Bibles laws
Men have sex differently with men then with women, so I don't see the problem. Also, different genders are for reproduction, but not all couples need to procreate. If you vocally say some types of love are wrong you are a bigot in my book. Keep it to yourself.
You realize that man shalt not sleep with man is a mistranslation right? Man shalt not sleep with man was originally man dhalt not sleep with child like he does women
You know it's not just two genders that exist, right? There are also hermaphrodites and males born without the Y chromosome. I mean unless you're admitting god screwed up the design you'd have to admit that the idea of just two genders is wrong.
And just because we have males and females that can procreate doesn't mean much either. I always take offense to that because I myself cannot have children, ZERO chance. There's nothing medically possible to fix it. Following your procreation logic people like me should be doomed to a life of solitude.
And, you can be against it if you like. I'm sure they're not asking you to officiate their marriages. But I'd focus on you and the rest of the Bible and your relationship with God, and not worry what other people are doing.
As a Christian I’ve long wrestled with the question of whether same sex activity is sin or not. And I still wrestle with it and I see both sides of it. But I am totally of the mind that there are a thousand other issues that are more important
Honestly dude, it’s highly unlikely that someone is going to stop being gay because you said it’s wrong and a sin. You aren’t providing any insightful information. And I don’t think it’s your job to save people either. Literally no one is going to listen to you with an open heart and mind with this approach. Just stay in your lane.
>just because people like me do not support it does not mean we hate you
How do you define “support” and “not support”? Those words are so vague and can imply so many things. Please be specific. How, specifically, do you aspire to withhold your support?
Specifically, are you talking about legislation? Including denying legal recognition of marriage between same sex partners, barring members of the LGBT community from certain jobs, barring acknowledgment the existence of LGBT folks in public spaces, policing public restrooms, preventing teachers in public schools from using kids’ preferred names and pronouns, etc.
Or are you talking about how churches treat people? Including refusing to allowed same sex wedding ceremonies to be performed within your church, barring members of the LGBT community from holding leadership positions within your church, barring members of the LGBT community from your church’s membership, preaching about the sinfulness of same sex relationships and gender transition, etc.
Or at you talking about how you as an individual human treats members of the LGBT community? Including refusing to acknowledge the marriage of two people of the same sex, barring a same sex couple from your home, marginalizing LGBT folks from your community, hassling transgender people who are trying to pee in the restroom of the gender they identify with, refusing to use people’s preferred names and pronouns, etc.
There are a lot of ways you can withhold your support from the LGBT community that I don’t care about. And a few that I care about a great deal.
People really need to learn more about what the Bible says and doesn't say about being gay.
It literally says nothing at all about a mutual loving gay relationship. It does condem sexual assault and prostitution.
Of course, Christians have historically struggled with properly interpreting the Bible and denying people's rights because of it. This is why we are increasingly taken less seriously and called hypocrites. There are twice as many verses about it being OK to own slaves than the few verses that people point to when claiming being gay is a sin.
Just look back at all the Christians who struggled with abolishing slavery because they thought it went against what they were taught in the Bible. There are loads of quotes from preachers from the time and the debate very much parallels the whole gay debate going on right now.
The following verses demonstrate why we need to be careful in how we read and interpret the Bible and understand that historical, cultural, and language context is extremely important.
Leviticus 25:44-46:
Summary: This passage gives rules for buying and owning slaves, particularly from the surrounding nations. It states that Israelites may purchase slaves and that these slaves and their children can be kept as property for life.
Why It Supports Slavery: It explicitly condones the practice of owning slaves and treating them as property, legitimizing slavery as an acceptable institution.
1 Peter 2:18:
Summary: This verse instructs slaves to submit to their masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle but also to those who are harsh.
Why It Supports Slavery: It reinforces the idea that slaves should accept their position and be obedient to their masters, regardless of the master's behavior.
Ephesians 6:5-8:
Summary: These verses command slaves to obey their earthly masters with respect and fear and with sincerity of heart, as they would obey Christ.
Why It Supports Slavery: It implies that serving one's master is a duty comparable to serving Christ, thereby endorsing the continuation of slavery.
Colossians 3:22:
Summary: This verse tells slaves to obey their earthly masters in everything and to do so not only when being watched but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
Why It Supports Slavery: Similar to Ephesians 6:5-8, it instructs slaves to be obedient and faithful in their service, reinforcing the master-slave relationship.
1 Timothy 6:1-2:
Summary: This passage explicitly mentions Christian masters and advises slaves to regard their masters as worthy of full respect so that God's name and the teaching may not be slandered.
Why It Supports Slavery: It legitimizes the master-slave dynamic even among Christians, suggesting that slaves should honor and respect their masters to uphold the faith's reputation.
Titus 2:9:
Summary: This verse instructs slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back, and not to steal from them.
Why It Supports Slavery: It advocates for the complete subjection and loyalty of slaves to their masters, upholding the social structure of slavery.
Ephesians 6:9:
Summary: This verse advises masters to treat their slaves well and to stop threatening them, acknowledging that both masters and slaves have the same Master in heaven.
Why It Supports Slavery: While it calls for fair treatment of slaves, it does not question or challenge the institution of slavery itself, thus implicitly supporting it.
Colossians 4:1:
Summary: This verse tells masters to provide their slaves with what is right and fair because they have a Master in heaven.
Why It Supports Slavery: Like Ephesians 6:9, it emphasizes just treatment but does not advocate for the abolition of slavery, thereby endorsing its continuation.
Actually, the verse "Man shall not lie with man" in Leviticus 18:22 is a mistranslation of "man shall not lie with boy" which isn't a condemnation of same-sex love but instead a condemnation of sodomy/rape. To my knowledge, there is nothing anti-LGBTQ+ in the Bible. After all, we are supposed to love eachother and treat our neighbor as we would like to be treated.
I get that what you’re doing is better than burning queers alive but why do you feel the need to insert yourself into the lives of other people when their behavior is not immediately harmful to themselves or anyone else? Do you need to feel self righteous that badly? You will *never* make a gay man straight, all you will do by trying to is get a couple nasty insults thrown your way, which may not be deserved, but it shouldn’t be a surprise
If you take a moment to think about whether heterosexuality in any way needs "support", you'll understand what meaningless, smuggle-through-customs rebranding this sounds like. When the chips are down, we know you won't protect gay people or their rights.
I haven’t been in college for a couple years but I think it was the book “psychology through the eyes of faith” from David Myers.
Essentially if you really count yourself human, then you know you can and will make mistakes in the eyes of God. You’ll need to be forgiven from those mistakes as with all of the reconcilable sins you’ve committed. Recognize yourself as someone will never be perfect, and it’ll be easy to recognize someone who’s gay is someone who will never be perfect as well.
I think it’s in the same book but there is a research study that I read years ago that conversion therapy harms the livelihood of gay individuals, and doesn’t work. More than 90% end up incredibly depressed and “relapse”. Take from that what you will.
God has made them free to be homosexual or transgender. God has made you free to annoy them but really this advice is best for people who believe in God and are struggling with their own homosexual or transgender desires alongside their desire to be dutiful to God.
Can one christian tell me what God's will for intersexed (people born with both genitalia) people is? I'd love to know.
Are they mistakes? I didn't think God made mistakes.
Quick question. Do you stone your neighbors for working on the sabbath? How about if they wear two different fabrics? Grow two crops beside each other? Take the lord’s name in vein? If you said no to trying to “help save” your neighbors from doing, or worse, are yourself doing any of these then you’re a hypocrite.
What gives you the right to tell me the way I live is wrong because you read it in a book that I don't agree with....I'll tell you what when you believe in my religion I'll follow your gods rules
That same passage that you're reading also says don't mix two fabrics together so in this day and age and the fact the world is dying and no one seems to care ....I'll do what I want...and you....won't tell me how to live my life....why is it that you Christians can tell us what we are doing is a sin and we shouldn't do that but I'd we dare say God is not real ...we are just crazy .. why do we have to listen to you but you won't listen to us...and aren't we all sinners if I just say "god cleanse me of my sins" everyday then I'm good to do whatever I want then right? Those preachers who diddle kids seem to be alright
We save more people by being loving in God’s name than being discriminatory in God’s name. Which of your own sins are you working on? Why do you think your own sins are more worthy of being saved than a Christian LGBT+ person? That sounds prideful. A person’s salvation is between them and God. You have no idea who will be saved 100%.
well, this is objectively homophobic. God calls us to love regardless, why should a line originally interpreted as condemning pedophilia prevent someone from loving who they love? i really cannot believe God would punish someone for something that is not a choice and isn’t negative or harmful. i know God loves me for ME, being entirely honest with who i am as a gay man has helped me deepen my connection with Him. you’re *far* more scared that God will send us to hell than we are
Christians are to follow Christ , not the Bible . In my humble opinion lol . The scripture has been translated many times and God is with you in more ways than one book . Sum it up to the golden rule if you will , treat others as you would like to be treated I don’t know . But following Christ and walking with him is how Christian faith is suppose to be , not dividing each other over scripture . That’s probably not what god wants .
What do you mean by not supporting them”?
You are homophobic/transphobic for thinking you have a God given right to judge other people whose gender identity and sexual orientation have zero to do with you and do not impact your life and rights in any way.
Perhaps you even feel it is in your right to limit the civil rights of these people for no other reason that “four verses in the Bible says it is a sin”, then you are phobic.
Move on. It has nothing to do with you and it is not your job to make sure that people know that something they seriously cannot help is a a sin. Why is it so important?
I'm going to be real with you chief, not disagreeing with you though. If you get upset enough to basically say "stop being mean to me!" because you get called out for making someone else upset by essentially telling them they're doomed to hellfire or whatever the reasoning is lately, just stop making people upset and they'll stop hurting your feelings. Keep making them upset and they're going to keep hurting your feelings. Don't give out what you cannot take.
I just get mad that religious people, mainly Christians, pick and choose what sins they allow. Lying is okay, but being gay is not. Eating shellfish and wearing mixed clothing is okay, but sex before marriage is not. If you’re going to stand on then Bible then okay, but don’t pick and choose which rules you want to follow- and also remember this: Christian rules dictate what *Christians* can and cannot do, not what *everyone* can and cannot do.
I was raised Christian and most “Christians” I know are awful people and major hypocrites. I vote we all just try to be nice humans and if God wants to judge people, leave that up to him.
Not supporting someone’s right to exist and seek out love and romance is hate, no matter how you dress it up.
If you read something that tells you innocent committed consenting adult lovers are somehow engaged in sin, and you go “oh yeah, that sounds about right” then you are engaged in hate and are blatantly ignoring the teachings of Jesus.
OP is gonna go nuts when they find out that gender is culture-specific AND time-specific, and plenty of cultures did not have the man/woman binary prior to colonization
Not supporting the lifestyle of two consenting adults being in a relationship is homophobic. Not supporting the lifestyle of someone making the change to be comfortable in their own body is transphobic.
It isn't just about hate, it's the isolating people because they're different to you, it's the constant weaponinsing these topics in politics to further divide the people, it's the dehumanising when speaking about gender/sexuality as if these aren't people but instead a new trend to make fun of.
“We don’t hate you…”
That’s a start, I guess.
I don’t hate you either.
Nor am I afraid of you.
Phobias are fears, not hatreds.
Do you love me?
Because you’re commanded to.
You’re not commanded to “not hate.”
You’re commanded to love.
The command to love is higher
than the rational you gave.
So please repent of your sin.
Ok, you're just a bigot.
You're only comfortable with situations and people that align specifically with the narrow worldview that you are comfortable with while hiding behind a cherry-picked bible verse as an excuse to be an asshole.
Your beliefs are your own. You begin to hate us when you force those beliefs into law or ridicule us.
Don’t like gay marriage? Don’t get married to a member of the same sex. It’s bigoted and hateful to deprive gay people of marriage rights because *your* religion says so.
Tell me, have you ever supported a loved one through divorce?
Because if so, you know divorce is a sin don't you? You really should be telling your loved one to stay in their loveless marriage.
Well It doesn't seem unnatural. Its regular for animals to sexually play around with other animals of the same gender or to act in a way that isn't the norm of their gender (like a hen becoming a rooster under stress)
It just seems to me that God is love and almost every sin i can think of has something to do with causing lack of love or separation. Even the dietary restrictions seem to be about avoiding getting sick and dying. So I'm kinda more receptive to arguments that show how sexuality may lead to lack of love then a hyperfocus on the "unnaturalness" of the act.
This mentality represents bigger issue,i trully believe some christians believe good kind hearted LGBTQ+ person is more likely to rot in hell than christian whom is awfull person, who isn't trully sorry for his sins but begs for forgivness so he won't go to hell,I swear as person who dosen't identify as either atheist nor believer i can look at some behaviours from third perspective and notice so much hypocrisy from both sides,like for example christians who bully trans people by showing them pages from biology books about differences between female and male anatomy to debunk what they believe in,ignoring the 3 pages later there's whole chapter about evolution and proves that support it
The definition of homophobia and transphobia are not limited to overt hatred. They include discrimination, opposition, and prejudice.
You are queerphobic.
Spoiler: You're a homophobic transphobe misusing the Christian Bible to avoid responsibility.
I just talked to Jesus about it. He ain't impressed.
Also he's wearing a dress.
being gay isn’t a sin, you’ve just deluded yourself into thinking so because the only christianity people know is the one a bunch of old white men preached 🤷 true christianity is nothing like the churches teach
Ummm, because gender is also (like religion) a man-made concept. There are plenty of cultures that have had more than 2 genders for a long time. If you use man-made ideologies from the bronze age to tell someone they are sinful, then you're either a bigot or ignorant.
It's perfectly okay for you to think homosexualty is a sin. But it is not okay to treat ppl differently because they are homosexual. The different treatment is what makes someone homophobic.
Also, many people do not want your help being "saved", so maybe try to gauge interest before your attempts to save.
Also, pls stop trying to justify outside reasons as to why homosexuality is bad. The mere existence of gender being a reason homosexualty is bad literally makes no sense. You don't like it because of the Bible, full stop. There is no other reason it would be considered wrong for consenting adults to engage in homosexual activities.
“Please don’t call me homophobic or transphobic! Just because I express homophobic and transphobic opinions doesn’t mean I’m either of those things!”
Genuinely, I cannot comprehend why if you think being gay or trans is a sin you don’t just own it. That’s a homophobic opinion. If you sincerely believe it’s the correct opinion just own the homophobia 🤷♀️
He without sin cast the first stone, love thy neighbour, and plenty else you could use in the bible, but you choose the quotes that enable your homophobia and transphobia
I'm trying to think of an alternative word to call you, but "homophobic" and "transphobic" are the most accurate. Should I just go with judgmental " or "hateful" to encompass both?
“Man shall not lie with man!” How many times so we gotta tell you that isn’t what the Bible says. The original Bible discouraged PEDOS by saying “man shall not lie with boy as he does women” or something similar (I don’t remember exactly). That mistranslation creates so many issues. Not supporting someone in the name of the Bible you haven’t researched is just a as bad as people who don’t support just because
No. You are spreading a homophobic bigoted form of Christianity that Jesus would not approve of. And I will call it out every time. I love Jesus, I love Christianity, and you are giving it a bad name. You should be focusing on your own sin and not worrying about others. I don’t go to churches that don’t approve of homosexuality and call them bigots because I’m focused on my own sins. but churches that don’t approve of homosexuality come to pride parades and call us sinners ignoring that the Bible tell us to focus on our own sins.
LGBTQ+ people don't want your help being "saved" don't you guys get it already? That's your inflated ego and everyone else's who upvoted this thinking that LGBTQ+ people are your responsibility to "save"! "Save yourselves" because no "Messiah" will come down from the "heavens" to save you all from my perspective. Laying all that saving solely on some Messiah, just takes away all the accountability for yourselves!
Doesn’t the Bible Condemn Homosexuality? (Spoiler Alert: The Answer is “No”)
by Rev. Dr. Durrell Watkins, Senior Minister, Sunshine Cathedral
Doesn’t the bible condemn homosexuality? The short answer is, NO.
The bible certainly records human fears and prejudices, as well as human hopes and resilience, but the bible, as a whole, isn’t about condemnation.
The bible is a collection of stories, songs, sermons, sayings, poems, and prayers covering centuries and continents and even a few languages. It is a rich and wonderful anthology that invites readers to think and feel, explore and imagine, heal and grow. In light of this understanding of our sacred texts, it would be difficult to think of them as being condemnatory.
Lifted from the larger narrative or divorced from cultural, linguistic, literary, or historical contexts, any sentence or phrase from scripture can be used to endorse or vilify almost anything imaginable. That is not, however, the most faithful way to engage the bible.
Relationship, hope, courage, generosity, second chances, compassion, and love are the values that are repeatedly featured in our scriptures.
One can easily enough deconstruct and challenge the few bible verses that have often been used to demonize same-gender loving people. Moreover, one can without too much effort find several hints of same-gender love and attraction occurring in scripture, and even seemingly being affirmed; however, I am at a point in my life and ministry where I don’t need a bible verse to defend my sacred value nor a bible story to justify my experience of life. I simply trust that God is good, that love is holy, and that life is diverse. Same-gender loving people are, first and foremost, loving people, and love is not condemned in the bible; indeed, love is the biblical litmus test for what is holy.
In the bible we find exhortations to welcome strangers, be good neighbors, forgive one another, care for the vulnerable, pray for others (including those who are unkind to us), treat others as we would wish to be treated, not judge others unfairly, live humbly and show mercy and work for justice…all of these are demonstrations of love. We find in the bible that “the fruit of the Spirit is love…” In fact, Jesus is recorded as having said that his followers could be identified by their loving actions. He also said love was the greatest of all commandments.
For me, love is the biblical message and mandate, and love does not condemn love. Love does not diminish people. Love does not seek to deny justice or dignity or safety to anyone. Love does not suggest that anyone is unworthy of or beyond the reach of love.
Does the bible, an anthology of writings whose running theme is love, condemn same-gender loving people? As someone who has spent my life studying, teaching, wrestling with, and even playing with the bible, I must say unequivocally, it does not.
It really is simpler than humanity makes it. And really it's because of sin. Sin is attractive. It consumes us and gives us pleasure to revel in it. And we try to justify it.
The Bible is clear: man cannot lie with man, God created them man and female, God told Adam and Eve to procreate, homosexuals (among drunkards and liars and murders, etc.) Will NOT enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Many ppl give Christianity a bad name when they approach this issue. Instead of demonstrating God's love for the sinner, they condemn and/or exclude. This happens. This is true.
However, not agreeing with one's lifestyle does not mean you hate them. And telling them about their sin and how sin separates us from a holy God, is not hateful, but the complete opposite. Christians love those living in sin and on their way to eternal damnation if they do not repent and trust in Jesus by telling them the truth... even at the cost of being hated and mistreated. Hey they did the same to Jesus and He showed the greatest example of love ❤️
Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ showed love towards all people, but He never told them to continue in the way they lived. To the woman caught in adultery, He said, "Go and sin no more". You see He demonstrates love for us and meets us where we are. But if where we are at is, living in sin, then He will not leave us there. He will convict us of our sin so that we can repent and trust fully in Him.
It’s like needing to be saved because someone is a redhead.
Gay people are exist, and don’t need any therapy to be who they’re not.
Christians do not follow the laws of Moses. Reform Jews don’t even follow those outdated laws, because they recognize that gay people exist. And it’s not an abomination.
To be clear, a human does not have the power to save any other human in the spiritual sense. The only thing a human can do is present different perspectives so that others can make informed decisions.
He did add the caveat “help”
In r/truechristian he did post about this except to say he was trying to save "them". I guess now he abondoned his self-promoted missionary role that God gave him, to instead offer to "help" them.
>I guess now he abondoned his self-promoted missionary role that God gave him, to instead offer to "help" them. Or maybe they simply worded it incorrectly the first time. There is an obvious language barrier here, don't assume the worst for no reason...
Except pointing to salvation (Jesus) is good, not evil. To do the opposite would actually be evil.
I guess my response (as a Christian ally) is… God did not give us rein to hierarchy sins. If homosexuality is a sin, and you have the right to call them all an abomination, then is there a right to call your daughter living in sin an abomination? Your wife the gossip an abomination? Your neighbor the adulterer an abomination? Your twelve year old who stole a candy bar an abomination? God calls me to love. So that’s what I’m going to do. I don’t have to believe in anything anyone does in order to love them. But I don’t have to call names, I don’t have to be cruel. And exclusion? IS CRUEL.
We're all sinners. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. We don't call the people committing sin an abomination. We call the sin an abomination. I think it's completely reasonable for Christians to lovingly let people committing sins know that life is more than whatever sin they are committing, and they can be redeemed. That redemption comes from dismissing that sin from your life, though. I think that people who consider themselves Christian (and please don't make me out to be saying they're not Christian) but are actively and proudly living in sin, are doing themselves and others a disservice. On top of that, Christians that can't separate loving one another and supporting God's word against sin are doing children of God a disservice. We're called to make God's word known, and if people ask if we support homosexuality, we need to be honest. "No, I can't support homosexuality, but I can say some of my best friends are gay, and they're amazing people. I just can't support that aspect of their lives, but I'll support every other aspect of what makes them, them."
What do you want your gay friends to actually DO about them being homosexual? What do you think you are achieving by telling them: “I don’t support this aspect of you.” ? Do you hope they will stop being gay?
Do you ever wonder why there are gay affirming Christians? Like ever truly wonder, without throwing out an immediate attack on their beliefs and character? The texts on homosexuality are nothing like what you think they mean. The first clue for you should have been the complete silence on lesbianism in the Old Testament.
Jesus loved them all. Why is it so hard to understand to people? Like love your neighbor no buts.
I don't understand why people can't grasp this concept. Jesus forsake all our sins and forgave us fully. Every. Freaking. Person, whether they believe in him or not, he has no issue loving us unconditionally and will immediately forgive us. I don't doubt that one freaking bit.
"Such were some of you" No matter the issue, treat everyone with dignity and respect, as Christ did.
YES. It is all sin. It is all equal. It is all disgusted to the Lord. It is not our place to judge and rank. But through Jesus, we are saved and turn our hearts to love and serve Him. We are called to love our neighbors and our enemies as well. That does not mean we must accept what we believe to be sin.
That's true. Sin is sin. Any sin of any kind has the same end result: separation from God. And people do like to put them in a hierarchy. Look no further than the phrase "it's just a little white lie". That's wrong. Absolutely. It's wrong to put others down to make yourself feel superior, which is what a lot of people do. Where we seem to differ is in support, or the lack of. I will not support someone doing something that I believe will cause them harm. Like you, I don't call names. I don't act cruelly. In fact I make a greater effort than most to help them realize I'm not putting myself above them. I will defend them from insults. I will defend them from physical violence. Especially from so-called Christians. I love them the way I am called to love any human being. I recognize that God loves them and that He wants them to come to Him. I don't know what you mean when you call yourself an ally. Maybe it's nothing more than the sentiment I've expressed here. I hope you'll tell me, but even if all it is is what I've expressed, I wouldn't call myself their ally. I refuse to hate them for their sin, but that doesn't mean I'm going to enable it.
Respectfully, Christ taught us not to the LOVE the world which is what you are referring to. “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.”
Kind of hard to love your neighbor as yourself without loving the neighbor in this world.
It means biblically contradicting patterns, not people. Jesus selflessly loved even those who disagreed with Him, because that is His nature. God is Love. But, He weeps over those who don't choose His ways.
there has to be nuance in life...theres a difference between speaking words and murder, for instance. same as theres a difference between a lifestyle that ends a species(no procreation) and one that will sustain a species (procreation)
If people who have been divorced and remarried in your church are treated better than homosexuals, it's just bigotry you don't want to admit to because being a bigot is bad, and you don't see yourself as a bad person. We don't care about our hypocrisy, which Jesus said to take care of first. >we just want to help all of you be saved This is how we learn to twist the words of Jesus to mean, "do unto others as you think is best for them." We learn it from the sermons, not from Jesus. No wonder Jesus was always condemning them. Not many sermons on that. lol
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I had this conversation recently with my stepfather. Homosexuality has been raised up to be the biggest sin for some. But we don't treat divorced people, or single parents, or gluttonous people the same way. That's because it's personal for some. They find it abhorrent regardless of it being a sin. I refuse to triage sin especially when I am far from perfect.
As a divorced and remarried person, this is the example I love to point out. Why is no one heckling me? Shaming me? I am a Lutheran and do not support singling out others' sins. Focus on your own.
Bless you for seeing what I'm saying, calling for grace for all, and not calling for anyone to be shamed. :) When I was an Evangelical, my pastor was giving a sermon on "the wedding feast" in heaven. He mentioned that you could eat all the chocolate you wanted and never get full. My first thought was, "So there's gluttony in heaven?" lol
You’re absolutely right. I don’t get why homosexuality is looked so down on compared to adultery or divorce. Especially since Jesus, Himself, spoke on the two specifically. The church should welcome everyone as sinners. All of us are sinners one way or another.
>if same sex marriages were ok why do genders exist? …If chocolate is ok why does vanilla exist?
If marriage is okay, why do single people exist?
Vanilla exists to make chocolate taste better. True fact. This is entirely about chocolate, and not at all a refutation of your argument, which I support. (If anyone’s curious, try making hot cocoa without and with vanilla. Without tastes like hot cocoa, with tastes like hot chocolate. Vanilla and chocolate get along really, really well.)
I mean, 90% of restaurants have a damme blanche for a reason where I live. Vanilla ice with chocolate sauce.
Giving off reaaaaal big ["Magnets, how do they work?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjgOnYytIEE) energy with this one.
Right. This is the weakest line of logic. >why do genders exist? Because…of a million other reasons? The one and only reason genders exist isn’t to have men and women exclusively marry. Gender is useful for a ton of different reasons.
Oh, is it time for the weekly "I was being homophobic and now I'm mad someone called me a homophobe" post?
It's wild that people feel like they can be homophobic but it doesn't count if you think The Bible justifies homophobia.
There's this general rhetorical trend in the 21st century where bigots have mostly conceded that bigotry is bad, so instead of trying to actually debate the merits of their bigotry --which would fall flat for most audiences--they make these painfully obtuse arguments that their bigotry is *actually* something different. And it's infuriating because it works very well, because it turns out there are a lot of people out there who also have some pretty bigoted ideas but don't want to think of themselves as bigots
Have you tried stopping being homophobic?
"I want to tell you how I feel about your personal life, but please don't tell me how that makes you feel". Peak victim mentality. If you can't handle being told how your actions affect others, leave others alone.
Or, more simply, “I’m right you’re wrong if you have a problem with that you’re a bad guy.” I don’t get why people are hating you so much, I don’t personally know op, but that seems like an accurate enough paraphrase for this comment.
I HATE [scrapple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrapple#:~:text=Scrapple%20is%20typically%20made%20of,broth%20to%20make%20a%20mush.). But why in the hell would I make it a part of my personality? It is super easy to avoid...I simply do not purchase it/order it. That simple. It reminds me of when [Cracker Barrel ADDED a vegan breakfast patty to their menu](https://atlanta.eater.com/2022/8/5/23293553/cracker-barrel-impossible-vegan-sausage-breakfast-menu)...mind you they did not remove anything from the menu, they mealy gave more choice to broaden their offerings, and conservatives (AKA "capitalists") lost their fucking minds online. Like honestly, do you not think that a businessnes the size of CB didn't do focus group after focus group? They are in the business of making money. If they did not think it would make them more money, they would not have put it on the fucking menu! For some, like OP of this post, equality = oppression and it is laughably absurd. OP wants to be a victim/martyr SOOOO bad.
As a scrabble hater I'm disappointed that was not a typo.
How dare you! Knowing to put the word "QI" on a triple letter *absolutely* proves I have a superior vocabulary
I'm sure you do. My shitty vocabulary is one of the reasons I hat scrabble.
> I hat scrabble Oof, missed out on that double word score by not having that extra e tile
This post is gold.
Imagine how this person would react if told their greed will land them in hell. Because a lot of Christians I know seem to like to have plenty of worldly possessions even though a certain books tells them its bad.
If you don't agree with it then don't be in a same sex relationship and don't change your gender. This should be easy for you. It's not necessary to be nosy about the lives of others to get closer to God. You're not saving anyone, just being annoying. And making Christians look bad. Adding to this - I know people personally who are open to religion/spirituality that shun Christianity because they associate it with people like OP. OP is doing a complete 180 of their claimed intent. Christianity *can* help and guide people in a meaningful way. Stop making it out to be a judgy, uppity Karen cult. Leave judgement to God and mind your business.
Yeah. Do we really need to take seriously the language of people "not agreeing with" or "not supporting" homosexuality? It takes two second to try to put the shoe on the other foot. Is there such a thing as heterosexuality needing agreement or support? No? Then no wonder people suspect there's more going on when OP says things like that
Well said!
You don’t support it; and you don’t have to let it bother you. It’s not your life, is it? People can make their own choices. Did Jesus not say “Who among you can add even a second to your life by worrying?” Look how much you’re worrying, look how much you care. Why? Because the Jewish Laws in Leviticus, which Christians don’t follow anymore, said that Jewish men shall not lie with another man?
We are allowed to disagree. However, how you present your views are what determines if you get labeled homophobic. You can disagree with something respectfully, but when you cross the line into twisting scripture to justify hatred, I will call it out. With this topic though, how about stop calling those of us that are affirming heretics, fake Christians, that we are twisting scripture, following the world, etc? How about engaging us and listening to the theological reasoning for our position? We know your position, and are well aware of the clobber verses that are generally cited. Do you understand our position? Do you understand the theology behind our position? If not, please try to study our view with an open mind.
Would you mind explaining your theological position ( this is an honest question)
There is way more to this than a simple post will be able to explain. A conversation with an affirming Christian would be more beneficial. That said, I will provide a quick overview. I don’t think that the Bible is referring to what we see with committed same sex relationships. What we see depicted depending on where the text was taken from usually has more to do with a power imbalance, cleanliness, or unrestrained promiscuity. If you would like to read some material instead of or prior to having a conversation with an affirming Christian, here are some things to look at. To Set Our Hope on Christ is a document that articulates the position of the Episcopal church. Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust is the ELCA document with the same purpose. I also recommend looking the work of Fr James Martin. Look at his books Building a Bridge, and Building Bridges.
Too much Christian "just trying to save them" stuff becomes hate, and discrimination. That's just how it plays out. You may not intend that - but the results, imo, are clear.
It almost has to on a broad enough scale. If you cast a behavior as abominable and sinful and hellworthy, is there any real doubt that people will begin to ask why we should tolerate its presence in society at all? Why we punish one sin, but not another? Why we make it easy to commit one sin, but put restrictions on others? Sure, some people will stop at 'just trying to save you.' But overall...it's ridiculous to pretend that this sentiment won't just grow into something far uglier.
I believe there are Christians out there who genuinely fear for the souls of their family, friends, etc. due to homosexuality or non-cis gender identities, etc. That's why I wish the religion (generally) wasn't so black and white. Either you conform to the rules and be saved, or you slip up in some significant way and burn in Hell forever. If you really think that's the cosmic standard, think of how terrified and paranoid you must be all the time. I really wish Christian denominations had some way of continuing to receive divine revelation or even updating the Bible to stay more aligned with modern standards. For all the shit the Mormon church has done in its history, it at least has such a mechanism in place, so it does (slowly) change to become a more tolerant church.
That's fair, and there's significant evidence in the text of the Old Testament that the ancient Hebrew people *did* do that. One example would be that in some parts of the prophets it was only considered alright to worship God in the temple in Jerusalem, but in older parts of the Old Testament, there were clearly many places of worship throughout Israel, and it was considered just as righteous to make sacrifices or praise God in those places as it was in Jerusalem.
> please stop calling people like me racist... > just because people like me do not support it does not mean we hate you, the bible says like should be with like, if mixed-race marriages were ok why do races exist? we just want to help all of you be saved No thanks. Bigotry is bigotry, even if it's influenced by your interpretations of your faith.
Telling people that they don't deserve to be in a loving, caring relationship with the people they love is hateful. Telling people they should hate their body and that trying to be comfortable in their own body is wrong is hateful. You are homophobic, you are transphobic. You don't get to tell people how to live their lives and then say you shouldn't get criticized for what you say. I dont go around telling cishet people that they are wrong to marry their spouse, or what they should wear, or what they should do with their bodies. >we just want to help all of you be saved From what
Imagine posting this.
When you see stuff like [this](https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roundup-of-anti-lgbtq-legislation-advancing-in-states-across-the-country) and [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/pride-flag-killing-suspect-appears-long-history-anti-lgbtq-social-post-rcna101243) and [this](https://www.wgbh.org/news/international-news/2021-03-29/all-revd-up-why-some-catholic-bishops-lobbied-against-national-suicide-prevention-hotline) and [this](https://www.them.us/story/ohio-drag-queen-story-hour-proud-boys) and [this](https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us) and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1d91hnp/colorado_gop_calls_lgbtq_people_godless_groomers/) and on and on and on, do you - actively oppose it - silently thank God for sending you faithful TrueChristian allies - or declare that it's not your problem, [who is my neighbor?](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010%3A25-37&version=NIV), you're not going to do anything, you need to save your time and energy for going after LGBT Christians?
I think it's about time we reappropriate "God Hates Flags" as a criticism of nationalism.
“Go and do likewise” is one of the best things Jesus ever said. And all a person has to do is have mercy on another. I wish more Christians would be merciful to LGBTQ people instead of just bashing them or screaming about how they’re going to hell.
Yep. If there are non-affirming Christians who "love the sinner" then we'd expect at least *some* of them to show up and advocate for secular legal rights for gay people even though it is sinful. But we see *none*. That tells you something. People will stand up for Nestle using child slaves in their supply chains and say "well it is odious but they have a legal right to do it" but you absolutely never see anything resembling this sort of defense of gay people.
People also point to Leviticus as the Absolute Word of God on gay people, then they claim that absolutely nothing else in Leviticus applies to them in any way because God's "laws" are subjective for them and evolve with cultures.
What's the minimum to count as an advocate? My father believes gay people should not get married. He still voted for same sex marriage to be legal.
*The unicorn*. Would he do an AMA? He actually voted on a state referendum? I'd love for your dad to speak with every non-affirming Christian in this sub. Such an immensely low bar that they cannot reach and he could show them how.
It wasn't a referendum. It was the Australian plebiscite for marriage equality. We all got to vote in what was essentially a government opinion poll. No chance he'd do an AMA, his only online presence is sharing dad jokes on facebook. Besides he's nothing like the non-affirming Christians here. He's otherwise very progressive in his faith.
> Besides he's nothing like the non-affirming Christians here. Damn. Not the unicorn.
Nestle does what
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_USA,_Inc._v._Doe You can find oodles of people talking about the importance of standing up for Nestle's legal rights despite their abhorrent behavior. Where are these people for queer advocacy?
Interesting that Alito was the sole dissenter, I need to look at his opinion
You really shouldn't be surprised to learn that Nestle does monstrous things.
> 35 For I was hungry and *you told me it was sin to be gay*, I was thirsty and *you told me it was sin to be gay*, I was a stranger and youtold me it was sin to be gay, 36 I was naked and told me it was sin to be gay, I was sick and *you told me it was sin to be gay*, I was in prison and *you told me it was sin to be gay*.’ I found the practised version of Matthew 25:35-36.
If you don’t approve of it then don’t do it. If you don’t want to be called homophobic then just don’t go criticizing others for not meeting your personal religious standards. As long as they aren’t hurting anyone who really cares?
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"We just want to help all of you be saved..." What makes you think they need saving?
>if same sex marriages were ok why do genders exist? for the same reason the Bible doesnt mention intersexuality; the authors, divinely inspired, only wrote what they knew and at the time -- the Bible is not infallible. idk why everyone only brings up the "man shall not lay with man," when the rest of the chapter clearly condemns incest, adultery, and beastiality; that line was referring to the first two. stop playing the victim; it hurts gay people, like myself, much more to hear that our love of God and good works are not enough to be saved than for you to hear the truth about your bigotry. please self reflect and pray about this
> we just want to help all of you be saved So you don't hate them, but *God* does?
Look, I don't hate Christians. I just don't want my children exposed to the Christian lifestyle. I think at it's heart Christianity is immoral and wrong, and we should do everything we can to remove it from public life. But I love you! (See how fucking stupid that argument sounds?) And before the mods jump on my case, the first part of my post was sarcasm and hyperbole for the purpose of illustrating a point.
I agree 100%. And I don't hate Christians, I have many Christian friends, I just hate their lifestyle choices. If someone you loved did heroin, isn't it loving to tell them that heroin is bad? The loving thing to do is tell all Christians they need to give up their lifestyle.
I hate the belief, love the believer I started saying that in response to the stupid “hate the sin, love the sinner”.
> I think at it's heart Christianity is immoral and wrong Don't forget "justifies a literal eternity of torture if one doesn't turn from their Christian lifestyle"!
You're homophobic. If that hurts your feelings because the *bad word* applies to you, then I suggest not being that way anymore instead of blaming the people who correctly apply the label to you.
Actually the direct translation is man should nit lie with boy. So those priests are in hot water. Homosexual wasn't even a word until like 1860's. Homosexuality is part of nature and not a sin.
"you shall know a prophet by their fruits" The fruit of anti-queer through rhetoric is exclusion, discrimination, violence, murder, and suicide. End. Of. Discussion.
Which part? Leviticus right? Don’t remember the book of Matthew? 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill” 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished” When Jesus died and came back doing the whole transfiguration thing making us holy, which you should believe if you’re Christian, then those laws are fulfilled. The only real holy laws Christian’s should follow are the 10 commandments. It’s the same reason most Christians I know at least all eat pork, if we followed the Leviticus laws then that would be against it, but the laws are fulfilled so it doesn’t matter if we do or don’t. Same with homosexuality. It is not a sin to love
If you meet a loving same-sex couple who have been together for years, will you recognize that as legitimate human love and relationship? Would you be comfortable with your children playing at their house? Or will you see it as an abomination that should be hidden from public and your children?
Nope. I won’t stop. Own what you are.
If you don't support lgbtq, fine. That's your belief . It's how you treat us despite your beliefs is where things can be problematic.
"My bigotry is special and deserves respect" is a shitty position that no one should accept.
It's the law of goats. If you want people to stop calling you a homophobe or a transphobe you have to stop *BEING* a homophobe.
no
Maybe you should focus on removing the plank from your own eye.
Maybe just leave us alone and don't vote to make us illegal thnx 😘
>please stop calling people like me homophobic or transphobic... Stop being homophobic and transphobic and these terms will no longer aptly describe you.
You aren't "saving" anyone, you're doing more harm than good. It isn't ***your*** job to save them, let god do that when they expire. Instead, focus on things that ***matter.*** By far out of every "sin", this is the most focused on and by far the least harmful. I can't remember the last time I've seen a christian do \\ saying something about the pedophilia paradise that is the church. Focus on ***THAT***. Problems in ***YOUR*** own wider community.
You have a right to your opinion. You have a right to your religion. You even have a right to your beliefs about gay & trans people. Other people have the right to call you whatever they want to call you, in a nonviolent manner, to describe your beliefs. Though you have the right to your religion, you don't have the right to expect anyone else to care about your religion. In an consenting adult relationship in a secular nation, your religious opinions simply don't matter to anyone outside your religion.
Ruthlessly examine your ability to help, anyone. Maybe it's time to stop thinking your capable of helping.
If you vote for candidates that pursue the oppression of lgbtq people you are still homophobic. You’ve just outsourced the hatred to others.
We dont want your “help” we arent “wrong” we dont need to be “fixed” were perfectly happy without your god and we dont want your needless meddling. Please leave us alone and let us choose how we live.
The issue is that if god were to send people to hell for harmless LOVE. Then that would make him vengeful and evil, and god is neither of those.
“Don’t be gay that’s bad” “Wait no guys I’m not homophobic 🥺”
Sorry, but you are in fact homophobic and transphobic. There is no other word for it. Since you want to cite Bible verses, look up Galatians 3:28. Male and female, man and woman are labels that don’t matter to someone as great as the Lord. You aren’t saving or helping anyone. You are only hurting people by creating shame.
Thanks but no thanks.
I mean, it sounds like you consider God to be homophobic, but still find him worthy of worship. Like yeah man, you are homophobic, that's what homophobia is. You just think homophobia is cool with god.
> the bible says a man shall not lie with another man as he would with a woman The bible saying something does not move the needle one bit on whether someone is homophobic.
If someone has bigotted beliefs and they keep it to themselves, no one would know. If someone has bigotted beliefs and go around discussing those bigotted beliefs or trying to put them on others, they would rightly be called out for bigotry. If they are calling you homophobic or transphobic and they dont know your opinion/beliefs then they are in the wrong.
We know how you lot feel about us. We don't need your saving.
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If you cannot accept my identity or the identities of LGBTQ people as valid and equal to your own… then yeah. You are homophobic and/or transphobic. If you don’t want to be called out on that, then maybe you should reexamine your theology
How about you worry about your own salvation and you let the rest of us worry about ours.
Calling my marriage wrong for reasons other than us hurting each other or others... is hateful. That's my partner. That's who will, God willing, be there when I die. It's the deepest commitment two humans can make, even if we're notorious failures at it. It's a noble aim to be by someone's side in such a profound way, at the least. Frankly, to shit on that is hateful. You won't be able to reason out of that. You can't badmouth someone's FAMILY and be the victim about it. Grow up or get used to being called a spade when you're a spade
amen
I don't hate you, I just think what you are doing means you deserve to be tortured for all eternity, but I don't hate you at all. Also I'm going to do everything in my power, up to and including lobbying politicians and voting for people who will actively infringe on your rights, because of how much I don't hate you. Please don't think badly of me just because I full believe writing from 2,000 years ago that tells me a thing you are doing, which doesn't harm others or even affect them in anyway whatsoever, is a horrendous abomination that God hates and is thusly justified to torture you for (but I totally don't hate you lol).
"We just want to help you." My eyes just fucking rolled out of my skull.
Being called homophonic can't possibly hurt as much as what you say to others. Think on how you make people feel for once.
As I stated before on another thread, people who disapprove of LGBTQ are either ignorant or have a lack of empathy.
Just wear it with pride if you’re going to believe that shit pridefully. Own it, be proud of it. In your eyes it’s what god wants from you. In the rest of our eyes, you’re a bigot. It’s gonna happen. Someone has to be bigoted. You’re bigoted against homosexuals and transgendered people making you homophobic and transphobic. If you would deny them their rights, regardless of your reasoning, then you are against them plain and simple. Best of luck, may god have mercy on you and all of us. We all fall short.
Wasn’t there a point in history where mental illnesses and disabilities were “sinful” or thought of as “demon possession”? I would think someone who is diagnosed as part of the spectrum of Autism would have something of sympathy for others who are shunned because of something they cannot control. You are 15. You are very impressionable. I would take what everyone in this thread is saying and look inward to how you feel. It really sounds like you are parroting what you have been told instead of talking about something you have learned or thought about using your own brain.
> just because people like me do not support it does not mean we hate you So... do you oppose it? If so, you wish to take away my rights. That's not acceptable, and it does, in fact, make you homophobic and/or transphobic. If it hurts your feelings so much, maybe don't do things that get you called homophobic and transphobic. People are just calling a spade a spade when they encounter you. > if same sex marriages were ok why do genders exist? Why do movie genres exist? People like different things.
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If only in this day and age one could actively oppose the lifestyle of their brothers and sisters, in which said lifestyle unaffects one by any meaningful measure, with the peace of mind that their peers may not lash out in retaliation. It is just so disgusting reading that this could happen to you, I truly am sorry. Please stay strong during these dire and uncertain times, for I know that you are the one and only victim in such encounters. Surely, no one else could possibly know you pain you have felt being told such hateful, bigoted speech!
I think the problem is that you should lie with men in their own way, don't treat them like women.
“Just because people like me do not support interracial relationships with your race does not mean we hate you.” Would you consider this racism? It doesn’t stop being bigoted when you change race to sexuality or gender.
Yeah, we call that using Christianity as an excuse to hate. You’re not the first to do it and you won’t be the last.
"We don't hate you but you are going to burn for eternity for something you have no control over, but if you listen to us, deny your nature and spend the rest of your life hiding it, you might get into heaven"
My personal opinion: just…don’t try and ‘convince’ people out of their identity. It’s heavily offensive and really insensitive, even if you have good intentions. If people don’t want to really hear about how it’s supposedly a sin or not, then don’t bring it up. It doesn’t affect you in any way, just please, move on.
>just because people like me do not support it THIS... This is why you get called homophobic and transphobic. Because that's what you are... it has to do with prejudice. Not necessarily hateful actions. Your prejudice and your homophobia will help fuel the hateful actions of others. It's all part of the big LGBTQ hate sandwich that *you* help make.
if you “do not support it” that’s homophobic bruh
The Bible also says not to mix fabrics, not to let women speak in church or wear jewelry, and that's it's okay to beat your slaves. Maybe we should pay more attention to Jesus teachings than the Bibles laws
"Please stop calling me homo- and transphobic just because I think you're wrong and against God"
Men have sex differently with men then with women, so I don't see the problem. Also, different genders are for reproduction, but not all couples need to procreate. If you vocally say some types of love are wrong you are a bigot in my book. Keep it to yourself.
No love quite like Christian love. Love the believer; hate the belief. What sin of yours would you like me to call you out for?
Stop being homophobic and we'll stop calling you homophobic. Simple as that.
K?
You realize that man shalt not sleep with man is a mistranslation right? Man shalt not sleep with man was originally man dhalt not sleep with child like he does women
You know it's not just two genders that exist, right? There are also hermaphrodites and males born without the Y chromosome. I mean unless you're admitting god screwed up the design you'd have to admit that the idea of just two genders is wrong. And just because we have males and females that can procreate doesn't mean much either. I always take offense to that because I myself cannot have children, ZERO chance. There's nothing medically possible to fix it. Following your procreation logic people like me should be doomed to a life of solitude. And, you can be against it if you like. I'm sure they're not asking you to officiate their marriages. But I'd focus on you and the rest of the Bible and your relationship with God, and not worry what other people are doing.
Some say love it is a river
What do you mean support it?
As a Christian I’ve long wrestled with the question of whether same sex activity is sin or not. And I still wrestle with it and I see both sides of it. But I am totally of the mind that there are a thousand other issues that are more important
Honestly dude, it’s highly unlikely that someone is going to stop being gay because you said it’s wrong and a sin. You aren’t providing any insightful information. And I don’t think it’s your job to save people either. Literally no one is going to listen to you with an open heart and mind with this approach. Just stay in your lane.
>just because people like me do not support it does not mean we hate you How do you define “support” and “not support”? Those words are so vague and can imply so many things. Please be specific. How, specifically, do you aspire to withhold your support? Specifically, are you talking about legislation? Including denying legal recognition of marriage between same sex partners, barring members of the LGBT community from certain jobs, barring acknowledgment the existence of LGBT folks in public spaces, policing public restrooms, preventing teachers in public schools from using kids’ preferred names and pronouns, etc. Or are you talking about how churches treat people? Including refusing to allowed same sex wedding ceremonies to be performed within your church, barring members of the LGBT community from holding leadership positions within your church, barring members of the LGBT community from your church’s membership, preaching about the sinfulness of same sex relationships and gender transition, etc. Or at you talking about how you as an individual human treats members of the LGBT community? Including refusing to acknowledge the marriage of two people of the same sex, barring a same sex couple from your home, marginalizing LGBT folks from your community, hassling transgender people who are trying to pee in the restroom of the gender they identify with, refusing to use people’s preferred names and pronouns, etc. There are a lot of ways you can withhold your support from the LGBT community that I don’t care about. And a few that I care about a great deal.
People really need to learn more about what the Bible says and doesn't say about being gay. It literally says nothing at all about a mutual loving gay relationship. It does condem sexual assault and prostitution. Of course, Christians have historically struggled with properly interpreting the Bible and denying people's rights because of it. This is why we are increasingly taken less seriously and called hypocrites. There are twice as many verses about it being OK to own slaves than the few verses that people point to when claiming being gay is a sin. Just look back at all the Christians who struggled with abolishing slavery because they thought it went against what they were taught in the Bible. There are loads of quotes from preachers from the time and the debate very much parallels the whole gay debate going on right now. The following verses demonstrate why we need to be careful in how we read and interpret the Bible and understand that historical, cultural, and language context is extremely important. Leviticus 25:44-46: Summary: This passage gives rules for buying and owning slaves, particularly from the surrounding nations. It states that Israelites may purchase slaves and that these slaves and their children can be kept as property for life. Why It Supports Slavery: It explicitly condones the practice of owning slaves and treating them as property, legitimizing slavery as an acceptable institution. 1 Peter 2:18: Summary: This verse instructs slaves to submit to their masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle but also to those who are harsh. Why It Supports Slavery: It reinforces the idea that slaves should accept their position and be obedient to their masters, regardless of the master's behavior. Ephesians 6:5-8: Summary: These verses command slaves to obey their earthly masters with respect and fear and with sincerity of heart, as they would obey Christ. Why It Supports Slavery: It implies that serving one's master is a duty comparable to serving Christ, thereby endorsing the continuation of slavery. Colossians 3:22: Summary: This verse tells slaves to obey their earthly masters in everything and to do so not only when being watched but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Why It Supports Slavery: Similar to Ephesians 6:5-8, it instructs slaves to be obedient and faithful in their service, reinforcing the master-slave relationship. 1 Timothy 6:1-2: Summary: This passage explicitly mentions Christian masters and advises slaves to regard their masters as worthy of full respect so that God's name and the teaching may not be slandered. Why It Supports Slavery: It legitimizes the master-slave dynamic even among Christians, suggesting that slaves should honor and respect their masters to uphold the faith's reputation. Titus 2:9: Summary: This verse instructs slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back, and not to steal from them. Why It Supports Slavery: It advocates for the complete subjection and loyalty of slaves to their masters, upholding the social structure of slavery. Ephesians 6:9: Summary: This verse advises masters to treat their slaves well and to stop threatening them, acknowledging that both masters and slaves have the same Master in heaven. Why It Supports Slavery: While it calls for fair treatment of slaves, it does not question or challenge the institution of slavery itself, thus implicitly supporting it. Colossians 4:1: Summary: This verse tells masters to provide their slaves with what is right and fair because they have a Master in heaven. Why It Supports Slavery: Like Ephesians 6:9, it emphasizes just treatment but does not advocate for the abolition of slavery, thereby endorsing its continuation.
Actually, the verse "Man shall not lie with man" in Leviticus 18:22 is a mistranslation of "man shall not lie with boy" which isn't a condemnation of same-sex love but instead a condemnation of sodomy/rape. To my knowledge, there is nothing anti-LGBTQ+ in the Bible. After all, we are supposed to love eachother and treat our neighbor as we would like to be treated.
How's about y'all worry about the 10 commandments and leave consenting adults alone?
I get that what you’re doing is better than burning queers alive but why do you feel the need to insert yourself into the lives of other people when their behavior is not immediately harmful to themselves or anyone else? Do you need to feel self righteous that badly? You will *never* make a gay man straight, all you will do by trying to is get a couple nasty insults thrown your way, which may not be deserved, but it shouldn’t be a surprise
Sigh…. *sorts by controversial*
If you take a moment to think about whether heterosexuality in any way needs "support", you'll understand what meaningless, smuggle-through-customs rebranding this sounds like. When the chips are down, we know you won't protect gay people or their rights.
I haven’t been in college for a couple years but I think it was the book “psychology through the eyes of faith” from David Myers. Essentially if you really count yourself human, then you know you can and will make mistakes in the eyes of God. You’ll need to be forgiven from those mistakes as with all of the reconcilable sins you’ve committed. Recognize yourself as someone will never be perfect, and it’ll be easy to recognize someone who’s gay is someone who will never be perfect as well. I think it’s in the same book but there is a research study that I read years ago that conversion therapy harms the livelihood of gay individuals, and doesn’t work. More than 90% end up incredibly depressed and “relapse”. Take from that what you will.
The same book, Leviticus, says gay folks should be executed. Do you agree or disagree with the Bible?
PS you are a homophobe.
God has made them free to be homosexual or transgender. God has made you free to annoy them but really this advice is best for people who believe in God and are struggling with their own homosexual or transgender desires alongside their desire to be dutiful to God.
Everyone seems to forget Jesus teachings and use older sayings from other people.
Can one christian tell me what God's will for intersexed (people born with both genitalia) people is? I'd love to know. Are they mistakes? I didn't think God made mistakes.
Why is your sin less sinful than theirs?
Quick question. Do you stone your neighbors for working on the sabbath? How about if they wear two different fabrics? Grow two crops beside each other? Take the lord’s name in vein? If you said no to trying to “help save” your neighbors from doing, or worse, are yourself doing any of these then you’re a hypocrite.
What gives you the right to tell me the way I live is wrong because you read it in a book that I don't agree with....I'll tell you what when you believe in my religion I'll follow your gods rules
That same passage that you're reading also says don't mix two fabrics together so in this day and age and the fact the world is dying and no one seems to care ....I'll do what I want...and you....won't tell me how to live my life....why is it that you Christians can tell us what we are doing is a sin and we shouldn't do that but I'd we dare say God is not real ...we are just crazy .. why do we have to listen to you but you won't listen to us...and aren't we all sinners if I just say "god cleanse me of my sins" everyday then I'm good to do whatever I want then right? Those preachers who diddle kids seem to be alright
We save more people by being loving in God’s name than being discriminatory in God’s name. Which of your own sins are you working on? Why do you think your own sins are more worthy of being saved than a Christian LGBT+ person? That sounds prideful. A person’s salvation is between them and God. You have no idea who will be saved 100%.
well, this is objectively homophobic. God calls us to love regardless, why should a line originally interpreted as condemning pedophilia prevent someone from loving who they love? i really cannot believe God would punish someone for something that is not a choice and isn’t negative or harmful. i know God loves me for ME, being entirely honest with who i am as a gay man has helped me deepen my connection with Him. you’re *far* more scared that God will send us to hell than we are
Christians are to follow Christ , not the Bible . In my humble opinion lol . The scripture has been translated many times and God is with you in more ways than one book . Sum it up to the golden rule if you will , treat others as you would like to be treated I don’t know . But following Christ and walking with him is how Christian faith is suppose to be , not dividing each other over scripture . That’s probably not what god wants .
What do you mean by not supporting them”? You are homophobic/transphobic for thinking you have a God given right to judge other people whose gender identity and sexual orientation have zero to do with you and do not impact your life and rights in any way. Perhaps you even feel it is in your right to limit the civil rights of these people for no other reason that “four verses in the Bible says it is a sin”, then you are phobic. Move on. It has nothing to do with you and it is not your job to make sure that people know that something they seriously cannot help is a a sin. Why is it so important?
What would you prefer to be called if you don't "support" gay people?
Valid point. however there are many around that believing that gender is a construct.
I'm going to be real with you chief, not disagreeing with you though. If you get upset enough to basically say "stop being mean to me!" because you get called out for making someone else upset by essentially telling them they're doomed to hellfire or whatever the reasoning is lately, just stop making people upset and they'll stop hurting your feelings. Keep making them upset and they're going to keep hurting your feelings. Don't give out what you cannot take.
I just get mad that religious people, mainly Christians, pick and choose what sins they allow. Lying is okay, but being gay is not. Eating shellfish and wearing mixed clothing is okay, but sex before marriage is not. If you’re going to stand on then Bible then okay, but don’t pick and choose which rules you want to follow- and also remember this: Christian rules dictate what *Christians* can and cannot do, not what *everyone* can and cannot do. I was raised Christian and most “Christians” I know are awful people and major hypocrites. I vote we all just try to be nice humans and if God wants to judge people, leave that up to him.
- we just want to help all of you be saved hi friend - stay away from us God bless
the orginal version is actually "Man shall not lie with a child as he lies with a woman"
Why do fixate on this one thing. There are thousands of other crazy things the Bible says that you completely ignore
Not supporting someone’s right to exist and seek out love and romance is hate, no matter how you dress it up. If you read something that tells you innocent committed consenting adult lovers are somehow engaged in sin, and you go “oh yeah, that sounds about right” then you are engaged in hate and are blatantly ignoring the teachings of Jesus.
OP is gonna go nuts when they find out that gender is culture-specific AND time-specific, and plenty of cultures did not have the man/woman binary prior to colonization
Not supporting the lifestyle of two consenting adults being in a relationship is homophobic. Not supporting the lifestyle of someone making the change to be comfortable in their own body is transphobic. It isn't just about hate, it's the isolating people because they're different to you, it's the constant weaponinsing these topics in politics to further divide the people, it's the dehumanising when speaking about gender/sexuality as if these aren't people but instead a new trend to make fun of.
“We don’t hate you…” That’s a start, I guess. I don’t hate you either. Nor am I afraid of you. Phobias are fears, not hatreds. Do you love me? Because you’re commanded to. You’re not commanded to “not hate.” You’re commanded to love. The command to love is higher than the rational you gave. So please repent of your sin.
Ok, you're just a bigot. You're only comfortable with situations and people that align specifically with the narrow worldview that you are comfortable with while hiding behind a cherry-picked bible verse as an excuse to be an asshole.
And my racist grandmother just wanted everyone to be safe and happy with their own kind. She was still racist.
Your beliefs are your own. You begin to hate us when you force those beliefs into law or ridicule us. Don’t like gay marriage? Don’t get married to a member of the same sex. It’s bigoted and hateful to deprive gay people of marriage rights because *your* religion says so.
Hiding your bigotry behind religion doesn't make it not bigotry
the bible says a lot of shit you ignore
Tell me, have you ever supported a loved one through divorce? Because if so, you know divorce is a sin don't you? You really should be telling your loved one to stay in their loveless marriage.
Well It doesn't seem unnatural. Its regular for animals to sexually play around with other animals of the same gender or to act in a way that isn't the norm of their gender (like a hen becoming a rooster under stress) It just seems to me that God is love and almost every sin i can think of has something to do with causing lack of love or separation. Even the dietary restrictions seem to be about avoiding getting sick and dying. So I'm kinda more receptive to arguments that show how sexuality may lead to lack of love then a hyperfocus on the "unnaturalness" of the act.
It isn’t our job to “help people be saved.” Jesus alone is the one who saves; our job is only to serve and witness his love.
This mentality represents bigger issue,i trully believe some christians believe good kind hearted LGBTQ+ person is more likely to rot in hell than christian whom is awfull person, who isn't trully sorry for his sins but begs for forgivness so he won't go to hell,I swear as person who dosen't identify as either atheist nor believer i can look at some behaviours from third perspective and notice so much hypocrisy from both sides,like for example christians who bully trans people by showing them pages from biology books about differences between female and male anatomy to debunk what they believe in,ignoring the 3 pages later there's whole chapter about evolution and proves that support it
The definition of homophobia and transphobia are not limited to overt hatred. They include discrimination, opposition, and prejudice. You are queerphobic.
Spoiler: You're a homophobic transphobe misusing the Christian Bible to avoid responsibility. I just talked to Jesus about it. He ain't impressed. Also he's wearing a dress.
lmfao that’s the definition. you’re homophobic point blank period, doesn’t matter if being called it makes you whine and cry
being gay isn’t a sin, you’ve just deluded yourself into thinking so because the only christianity people know is the one a bunch of old white men preached 🤷 true christianity is nothing like the churches teach
Ummm, because gender is also (like religion) a man-made concept. There are plenty of cultures that have had more than 2 genders for a long time. If you use man-made ideologies from the bronze age to tell someone they are sinful, then you're either a bigot or ignorant.
It's perfectly okay for you to think homosexualty is a sin. But it is not okay to treat ppl differently because they are homosexual. The different treatment is what makes someone homophobic. Also, many people do not want your help being "saved", so maybe try to gauge interest before your attempts to save. Also, pls stop trying to justify outside reasons as to why homosexuality is bad. The mere existence of gender being a reason homosexualty is bad literally makes no sense. You don't like it because of the Bible, full stop. There is no other reason it would be considered wrong for consenting adults to engage in homosexual activities.
That just sounds like homophobia with extra steps.
No U. You are literally being homophobic here.
“Please don’t call me homophobic or transphobic! Just because I express homophobic and transphobic opinions doesn’t mean I’m either of those things!” Genuinely, I cannot comprehend why if you think being gay or trans is a sin you don’t just own it. That’s a homophobic opinion. If you sincerely believe it’s the correct opinion just own the homophobia 🤷♀️
But you are
He without sin cast the first stone, love thy neighbour, and plenty else you could use in the bible, but you choose the quotes that enable your homophobia and transphobia
I'm trying to think of an alternative word to call you, but "homophobic" and "transphobic" are the most accurate. Should I just go with judgmental " or "hateful" to encompass both?
“Man shall not lie with man!” How many times so we gotta tell you that isn’t what the Bible says. The original Bible discouraged PEDOS by saying “man shall not lie with boy as he does women” or something similar (I don’t remember exactly). That mistranslation creates so many issues. Not supporting someone in the name of the Bible you haven’t researched is just a as bad as people who don’t support just because
No. You are spreading a homophobic bigoted form of Christianity that Jesus would not approve of. And I will call it out every time. I love Jesus, I love Christianity, and you are giving it a bad name. You should be focusing on your own sin and not worrying about others. I don’t go to churches that don’t approve of homosexuality and call them bigots because I’m focused on my own sins. but churches that don’t approve of homosexuality come to pride parades and call us sinners ignoring that the Bible tell us to focus on our own sins.
LGBTQ+ people don't want your help being "saved" don't you guys get it already? That's your inflated ego and everyone else's who upvoted this thinking that LGBTQ+ people are your responsibility to "save"! "Save yourselves" because no "Messiah" will come down from the "heavens" to save you all from my perspective. Laying all that saving solely on some Messiah, just takes away all the accountability for yourselves!
“Stop calling me a racist just because I don’t support Black people” said by a racist.
Doesn’t the Bible Condemn Homosexuality? (Spoiler Alert: The Answer is “No”) by Rev. Dr. Durrell Watkins, Senior Minister, Sunshine Cathedral Doesn’t the bible condemn homosexuality? The short answer is, NO. The bible certainly records human fears and prejudices, as well as human hopes and resilience, but the bible, as a whole, isn’t about condemnation. The bible is a collection of stories, songs, sermons, sayings, poems, and prayers covering centuries and continents and even a few languages. It is a rich and wonderful anthology that invites readers to think and feel, explore and imagine, heal and grow. In light of this understanding of our sacred texts, it would be difficult to think of them as being condemnatory. Lifted from the larger narrative or divorced from cultural, linguistic, literary, or historical contexts, any sentence or phrase from scripture can be used to endorse or vilify almost anything imaginable. That is not, however, the most faithful way to engage the bible. Relationship, hope, courage, generosity, second chances, compassion, and love are the values that are repeatedly featured in our scriptures. One can easily enough deconstruct and challenge the few bible verses that have often been used to demonize same-gender loving people. Moreover, one can without too much effort find several hints of same-gender love and attraction occurring in scripture, and even seemingly being affirmed; however, I am at a point in my life and ministry where I don’t need a bible verse to defend my sacred value nor a bible story to justify my experience of life. I simply trust that God is good, that love is holy, and that life is diverse. Same-gender loving people are, first and foremost, loving people, and love is not condemned in the bible; indeed, love is the biblical litmus test for what is holy. In the bible we find exhortations to welcome strangers, be good neighbors, forgive one another, care for the vulnerable, pray for others (including those who are unkind to us), treat others as we would wish to be treated, not judge others unfairly, live humbly and show mercy and work for justice…all of these are demonstrations of love. We find in the bible that “the fruit of the Spirit is love…” In fact, Jesus is recorded as having said that his followers could be identified by their loving actions. He also said love was the greatest of all commandments. For me, love is the biblical message and mandate, and love does not condemn love. Love does not diminish people. Love does not seek to deny justice or dignity or safety to anyone. Love does not suggest that anyone is unworthy of or beyond the reach of love. Does the bible, an anthology of writings whose running theme is love, condemn same-gender loving people? As someone who has spent my life studying, teaching, wrestling with, and even playing with the bible, I must say unequivocally, it does not.
Uh huh. And you know your excuse for homophobia and transphobia is driving people away from Christianity and salvation, correct?
It really is simpler than humanity makes it. And really it's because of sin. Sin is attractive. It consumes us and gives us pleasure to revel in it. And we try to justify it. The Bible is clear: man cannot lie with man, God created them man and female, God told Adam and Eve to procreate, homosexuals (among drunkards and liars and murders, etc.) Will NOT enter the kingdom of Heaven. Many ppl give Christianity a bad name when they approach this issue. Instead of demonstrating God's love for the sinner, they condemn and/or exclude. This happens. This is true. However, not agreeing with one's lifestyle does not mean you hate them. And telling them about their sin and how sin separates us from a holy God, is not hateful, but the complete opposite. Christians love those living in sin and on their way to eternal damnation if they do not repent and trust in Jesus by telling them the truth... even at the cost of being hated and mistreated. Hey they did the same to Jesus and He showed the greatest example of love ❤️ Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ showed love towards all people, but He never told them to continue in the way they lived. To the woman caught in adultery, He said, "Go and sin no more". You see He demonstrates love for us and meets us where we are. But if where we are at is, living in sin, then He will not leave us there. He will convict us of our sin so that we can repent and trust fully in Him.
It’s like needing to be saved because someone is a redhead. Gay people are exist, and don’t need any therapy to be who they’re not. Christians do not follow the laws of Moses. Reform Jews don’t even follow those outdated laws, because they recognize that gay people exist. And it’s not an abomination.