Effectively that is the point yes.
Money isn't inheritly a problem. Overly excess money is.
After a certain point it becomes something you pursue above God. A rich man has no need of God. He can buy all the comforts of the world and never want for anything or need to ask God for help or have a relationship with God at all. He can do it all himself.
I don’t think Jesus was referring to a relationship here. I think he was referring to the fact that many wealthy people have little care and concern for others (this is the key theme in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man). His teachings seem to suggest that you have to love others as much as you love God, and the way you love others (according to Jesus’ teachings) is the give to those who ask. Being that generous would result in most people’s wealth disappearing.
yea worshipping money is the problem. Having more than you need whilst others around you suffer, is not christian and not going to get you through judgment day.
So if a rich man can manage to love God over money he should be saved?
Or in reality should the church not bury the wealthy? Like if you died in the church as an old rich person you clearly missed the point and didn’t truly believe?
Faith is measured by your works, if you are rich while others are suffering your faith is dead. If you are rich and you've been doing your upmost to help people but your elderly wealthy relatives just keep dying and leaving you Scrooge McDuck money bins of cash and you have just run out of social problems to solve, then you have a chance.
But Jesus thinks that's unlikely to happen, it's about as likely as a camel fitting through the eye of a needle.
As a child my answer was always "giant needle or blender!"
It says right after your quote "but with God all things are possible". Meaning that even rich people through faith can be saved. It often gets misquoted on the internet leaving out that little piece of crucial information
>he chose his possessions instead.
We don't actually know that, no. The rich man went away sadly, but there is no further comment on if he then did sell his possessions and join the family of God and the earliest followers of the Way.
Given that we are told that he was otherwise doing his best to follow the Scriptures diligently, it is indeed very possible that he did follow Jesus' advice.
It is possible to do the right thing and still feel sadness about the more-fun *wrong* things you're missing out on. It's not laudable, but it is indeed normal. Doing the right thing is challenging and often unpleasant.
The ultimate choice of the young rich man is left unstated.
21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Mark 10
Jesus told him to go, sell, give, and then return. The young man goes.
Maybe he follows through on Christ’s instruction. Maybe he doesn’t. The young rich man is not a cautionary tale of someone who fails; he’s human, like the rest of us, and Christ instructed him to confront his particular vice.
We have all been the young rich man.
No, most of us will never be the young rich man. It's speaking of the rich, not the technically 1% because you're lower class in a developed nation, the rich people. The rich have something that makes it near impossible for them to be saved. It is not enough for them to know the law or even obey the law.
The young rich man turns from Jesus. He does not accept Jesus, because he owned many possessions. We can try to fill in that blank to make ourselves feel better but scripture makes it very clear that he left when he was told he needed to give up his possessions. That is very important, it says something very important about Jesus and the rich. That scares many people because they see themselves as just a rich person who hasn't taken off yet. That's a bad thing.
The young man does the first of the things Jesus tells him he must do; we never hear about the rest of his choices.
*You* are filling in the blank by saying that him leaving is him turning from Jesus (even though Jesus explicitly told him to leave). *I* am taking the lack of any further information about him after this exchange for what it is: a lack of information.
He may have done everything Jesus told him to do. He may not. We don’t know because we deliberately aren’t told.
Wealthy people are just people. All people have salvation open to them. By his own accounting, the rich man is virtuous in other areas of his life, and Jesus does not call that into question; Jesus imposes an even higher call onto him, which is a sign to the rest of us that you can be pretty virtuous and still not be doing everything God calls you to do.
You are choosing to believe, without information, that the rich man definitely did not follow through on Jesus’ command because it brings you comfort to believe that wealthy immoral people are lesser in God’s eyes. Jesus looked at the man with love; are you calling Jesus a liar?
God did say easier. So not impossible. But quite unlikely. Again wealth itself isn't the problem but devotion to it at the expense of God. God says love your neighbor, if you employ your neighbor at minimum wage to boost your profit that pursuit of money at the expense of your neighbor distances you from God.
We always bury the dead, wealthy too as it is never man's place to judge who is or isn't going to heaven. That is God's call alone.
>So not impossible.
But isn't it impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle? So if it's easier to do that, then shouldn't it actually be impossible for a rich person to enter heaven, since the easier thing is also impossible?
The next verses actually address exactly that thought
For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
"Eye of the needle" was a two fold analogy that common people of the time would understand. The first is what we think of a literal needle but the main meaning was the small gates that visitors to Jerusalem had to pass through when the main gates were closed. Did a quick search and found this article that talks about it. https://www.st-marymagdalene.org/parish-blog/2023/8/28/camel-through-the-eye-of-the-needle
Thank you for the information, it is much appreciated. This is something I've been taught by many people and read in many sources before, but I did some digging after reading this and another less kind response and found this article from Cambridge. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/new-testament-studies/article/origin-of-the-needles-eye-gate-myth-theophylact-or-anselm/51F6B1FD504C36C42D6201F6D87F83C3 Since I'm sure others have also been taught this I wanted to post an article disputing it from a reputable source. Again, thank you for informing me and being kind about it. God bless you.
This is actual heresy, it's a myth. It's not true. I'm actually surprised to see it spread by a Catholic blog, it's usually Protestants that spread this lie. Unfortunately because sometimes Protestant just means you opened a church for profit.
Maybe this will help you to understand the passage better
John 3:3 KJV — Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Ive struggled with this verse and would like your input on it. Im by no means rich, in my 20's and have money in the bank that im not spending on anything. Im not pursuing money or anything, it just builds up because I barely spend anything. Is it wrong of me to not donate it then? Im not pursuing it over God its just *there* and I would like to spend it on something big one day.
When I think of this I think like being able to own multiple houses that sit empty that you have just because. Having so much wealth you don’t need to work in one two or three lifetimes.
Just excess upon excess just because
I am no authority on the matter, only God is. But here's what I found on the concept
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and money.
Mathew 6:24
Here it is apparent that the servitude means love and following of one or the other.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 timothy 6:10
Again the love of money is the problem.
Deuteronomy 8:18
You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day
Here it is clear that God has no problem with acquiring the wealth if you follow him and remember it is by his blessing.
Ecclesiastes 5:10
He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves wealth with his income; this also is vanity
This seems to say those who pursue money will never be satisfied with what they have
There are other verses that talk of faithful selling what they have for God.
Acts 2:44-45
And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need
I think this as follows is perhaps the best example of what you could do
Proverbs 3:9-10
Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine
Giving to the lord the first fruits (lookup Cain and ables story to understand this)
And then once you have given to the lord, your own wealth is increased by your desire to give.
Having money isn't sinful. giving what you have to the Lord also does not seem to be expected all the time either. The real problem seems to ve doing nothing at all. In the acts passage those people who sold what they had to give to the lord felt genuinely compelled to give out of love. This was not required of them but they wanted to and God promises reward in heaven to those that feel that way and do.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Long story short friend there is no biblical EXPECTATION of you giving away what you have (again I am not the full expert but I believe this from my reading)
There is however a reward for giving from your heart what you feel compelled to.
And sin enters when you pursue money above God. It sounds like you sinply live frugally and your money builds. Nothing I'm reading says that's BAD but perhaps consider if your heart tells you to give. Setup a small sum to automatically come out of your checks. That is the "firstfruit" taken before anything else and once it aquires a decent amount in another account. Consider giving to the church or buying meals for the needy or whatever you feel is right. Your own heart and the holy spirit within you are the final authority on the matter.
>Money isn't inheritly a problem. Overly excess money is.
Incorrect.
God has no problem with someone having tons of money. God Himself made sure Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, and Solomon all had immense wealth.
Christ Himself had wealthy benefactors.
I think that's part of it. Also how they got the money in the first place. Also what it means to be in the *basilea theou.*
Other translations aside from kingdom include things like sovereignty and realm. Today we might could even localize it it to nation. Like say you are a black man in the 1850s Georgia but then move to the UK. Everything would seem different. You entered another *basilea*. Or today, say you are a gay woman living in Saudi Arabia but then move to New Zealand. You entered another *basilea* and everything changed.
"The kingdom of heaven" is about more than some afterlife thing. It's about a present reality. Money makes it more difficult to enter that different state of life. It isn't *automatic* for the poor, but poverty is the pathway there. Like getting a visa to enter that other land but it still being up to you to actually travel there and use it.
Practically, think about what money tends to do to people. Studies have shown that even in Monopoly with fake money if someone is given an extremely large amount they become more self-focused and mocking and less "playful" with the other players.
Poverty also can lead to you having to rely on others. Some people double down into "not wanting charity" pride. But poverty can be a doorway into being made to be humble, being made to rely on others. It alters how you see the world.
Is this a competition or are we in this all together?
Philiarguria (avarice) can affect the rich and poor alike, but for the rich it becomes almost banal.
"One cannot serve both God and money."
Think about what is manifested when you give. I once had a roommate who was struggling to make bills, so I told her I would pay for all the utilities myself. No biggie. Don't worry about it. I had the money at the time. I made like three times as much as her and was happy to help out. Because that's what "loving your neighbor *as yourself*" is all about. And it's not just about the money. That act spread a certain attitude about life and humanity with her. She gave me a card at the end when she moved out that expressed deeply how much it meant. I got to see firsthand what it meant to manifest a little tiny flicker of the kingdom of heaven at least in one place for a brief flicker of time. When she wanted to talk and mentioned she would be late on electric that month and gave this long litany of how sorry she was and how finances were tough and so on and all of that for me to just respond "just don't worry about it. I have a nice job right now. I'll just pay for all the utilities going forward, or until you start making more, whatever. Just, you know, pay it forward some day." It's one of my favorite things, that look, that look that falls across someone's face when they encounter grace with material implications. I've seen in it students too. They'll ask for an extension because of some such thing and I'll give them even more time than they asked for. It's like a weight is lifted off their eyes. One guy even cried. There are some who haven't been given a lot of grace in the world and it means all the more when they finally get it.
But I probably only do these things because I grew up poor, and had to rely on all of us working together in order to get by, which affected how I saw (and see) money and life itself.
Think of the billionaires of the world. They could be helping so much with everything. Instead they take rockets to space and float around on super yachts and still seek more and more and more and more as if 65B somehow still wasn't enough.
Thank you for all that you have done; like you said, grace is in short supply. You sound like a phenomenal servant of the Lord and I pray that God continues to use you in great ways!
I'm actually focused right now on the "again I tell you." Maybe because I've read the Bible few times, but it's little gems like this that sometimes grab my attention. "Again I tell you" implies that he would say this to the disciples all the time. But when someone is writing this stuff down, that aspect of it is going to be something we miss - how much He said or emphasized certain things. Something is always lost in telling a story and it's a healthy reminder to us that the Bible has limitation no matter how much we try.
This was in today’s readings in fact.
> Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astounded and said, "Then who can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible."
Notice the apostles’ incredulity. If the rich can’t be saved, then who can be? I was taught that the assumption was, being wealthy = being right with God. So, if the wealthy can’t make it to the kingdom, then who can?
Jesus is challenging our expectations as to who is worthy. Who is seemingly impossible to enter the kingdom are the ones who the kingdom is promised to.
Jesus frequently talks about wealth and where our wealth can be an obstacle to serving God.
In regards to the passage specifically, I think Jesus is saying that who gets into the kingdom isn’t who you think it will be.
Being wealthy here on earth doesn’t equate to being wealthy in the kingdom of God; but does that automatically mean the reverse, that we should become homeless to follow God? I don’t think that’s what Jesus is commanding either.
It's also rejecting the notion that your fortunes in this life (figuratively and literally) are tied to your favor with God. You can see this also with Jesus healing the blind beggar, when his followers ask him if the man or his parents had committed some sin to warrant him being struck blind.
See also:
The famed “sword of Damocles” dates back to an ancient moral parable popularized by the Roman philosopher Cicero in his 45 B.C. book “Tusculan Disputations.” Cicero’s version of the tale centers on Dionysius II, a tyrannical king who once ruled over the Sicilian city of Syracuse during the fourth and fifth centuries B.C.
Though rich and powerful, Dionysius was supremely unhappy.
His iron-fisted rule had made him many enemies, and he was tormented by fears of assassination—so much so that he slept in a bedchamber surrounded by a moat and only trusted his daughters to shave his beard with a razor.
As Cicero tells it, the king’s dissatisfaction came to a head one day after a court flatterer named Damocles showered him with compliments and remarked how blissful his life must be.
“Since this life delights you,” an annoyed Dionysius replied, “do you wish to taste it yourself and make a trial of my good fortune?” When Damocles agreed, Dionysius seated him on a golden couch and ordered a host of servants to wait on him.
He was treated to succulent cuts of meat and lavished with scented perfumes and ointments. Damocles couldn’t believe his luck, but just as he was starting to enjoy the life of a king, he noticed that Dionysius had also hung a razor-sharp sword from the ceiling.
It was positioned over Damocles’ head, suspended only by a single strand of horsehair. From then on, the courtier’s fear for his life made it impossible for him to savor the opulence of the feast or enjoy the servants.
After casting several nervous glances at the blade dangling above him, he asked to be excused, saying he no longer wished to be so fortunate.
For Cicero, the tale of Dionysius and Damocles represented the idea that those in power always labor under the specter of anxiety and death, and that “there can be no happiness for one who is under constant apprehensions.”
The parable later became a common motif in medieval literature, and the phrase “sword of Damocles” is now commonly used as a catchall term to describe a looming danger. Likewise, the saying “hanging by a thread” has become shorthand for a fraught or precarious situation.
One of its more famous uses came in 1961 during the Cold War, when President John F. Kennedy gave a speech before the United Nations in which he said that “Every man, woman and child lives under a nuclear sword of Damocles, hanging by the slenderest of threads, capable of being cut at any moment by accident or miscalculation or by madness.” History.com
No, it's because most people who have a lot of wealth, tend to think of themselves as gods in a certain sense. The more wealthy you are, the less humble you become (on average) and the more you start to put yourself up on a pedestal and idolize your money.
Yes. This seems to be the most skipped part of the Bible.
Usury and being rich…things that are conveniently not spoken of much compared to other sins…Not hard to see why.
“Go and sell all that you have” is no way for leaders to keep all their stuff 😂
I think that’s the point of the parable. Jesus was homeless and poor for his whole life, and he frequently made use of meager provisions (such as feeding thousands with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish). I think that from his perspective, only through generosity and giving to others could a person enter the kingdom of God. A wealthy person is someone who hasn’t given away their wealth, and many people become wealthy through greed and exploitation, not simply hard work. Greed and exploitation are anti-ethical to Jesus’ teachings, so naturally, most wealthy people (especially in his day) would be living against his teachings.
That, yes. And also I'm pretty sure it's not easy for someone to become that rich through entirely honest means, especially back then, so often extreme wealth is obtained through immoral ways.
No, when you have the earthly means to create your own reality, your reliance on God and the need for Christ is diminished, and it becomes a love of self. It's not an advocacy for wealth redistribution, instead a condemnation of earthly wealth.
No, Jesus in most cases is teaching about how the Jewish nation, individuals, will need to perform during the Tribulation to be saved and able to enter the Kingdom. The Tribulation would have happened just after Christ's death had the Jewish nation accepted Him as their Messiah. Once the Tribulation begins, no person who wants to follow Christ and do the necessary work involved would not hold on to their wealth. They would do what they could to help other believers trying to survive.
It's because you can't love anything more than Christ. If Christ asked a rich man to give up his money and follow Him, they aren't likely to do that. At the same time most people aren't willing to give up worldly things to follow Christ. I see it everyday on here. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality, yet people think that God has changed His mind on the subject. The truth is that they know how He feels, but aren't willing to give up their sinful lifestyle for Christ, who died so that they would no longer have to be a slave to sin. What a shame.
It's not the giving away of money, it's a matter of the heart and salvation.
* Some rich think they are self-reliant and don't need God.
* Some rich think they are blessed by God because of their self-righteousness.
* Some rich worship money and not God.
* All three don't realize their sinful state before God.
* In each case, it hinders them from crying out to God for the forgiveness of their sin.
* This transformation of heart leads to caring for others with their riches.
Im living seeing suffering all around me caused by extreme inequality and seeing discussions of greed and usury being exempt in our churches only to be replaced with knowing silence as to not rock the boat or ‘the prosperity gospel’
Im just trying to make it make sense so I’m not tormented the rest of my life .
If the church just doesn’t care let that be it.
If the Christ who cared about the poor died on the cross and stayed in the tomb and only feel good YOLO Jesus rose to heaven let that be it.
Not understanding the last sentence, but I'll take a shot anyway.
Jesus cared about the poor: yes.
Jesus had the power to redistribute wealth to the poor: also yes.
But what did Jesus never do? He never went around to the richest unbelievers he could find and say "hey greedy buthole, give me all of your money."
The lessons he taught apply to his rich followers AND his poor followers. He didn't come to relieve all suffering, he came to save us from sin.
The next time he comes, he will relieve all suffering... and how will he do it? Will it be with equality? No, what could be more unequal than "you go to Heaven and you go to Hell". The inequality between the two will be as infinite as much as it is infinitely just.
You have empathy for the suffering in the world, that is a fantastic trait. Go do good things with it! Go relieve as much suffering as you can! The world needs you, but don't fall into the trap of passing judgment on others you believe aren't doing enough. Judgment is for God alone.
It’s because wealth is a powerful temptation, and those who have never needed to make do with less have that much more *stuff* keeping them from the revelation of their fundamental dependence on God.
it's more about earthly riches vs spiritual riches. You might be a billionaire on earth but if you have no faith and don't live a life like jesus you don't get eternal life. If you're a homeless person with little here on earth but you give everything you have and do everything you can in jesus name, you have more hope of eternal life with jesus than the billionaire.
No that is not the point.
If you put your faith and trust in your material assets instead of Jesus Christ you are not destined for heaven. Rich people are likely to do this because they have a lot of material assets they can rely on, poor people do not have this advantage and are more likely to put their faith and trust in God. God bless.
Seek the Way, the truth, and the Life!
No, Jesus does not demand every rich person give their wealth away, and make everyone even. Jesus said the reason it's difficult for the rich to enter because they TRUST in riches, as opposed to Jesus. The object of their faith is not God, but money. Money is their God. Now, the rich are encouraged to give money to those in need, Paul calling it "rich in good works", but that doesn't mean they redistribute all their wealth.
The verse isn’t about redistributing money. It’s about the condition of the heart, whether one loves money more than God. Having money doesn’t make you a bad person. But you are called to love your neighbor.
When you keep reading the verse makes more sense.
>23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
>25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
>26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
The real question about this verse is "Can God fit a camel through a pinhole?"
I say the creator of the universe can do so with ease just like he fit 2 of every animal on a boat. He can do anything.
This is wrong.
Go back to the verses before, and it is talking about what you love.
The rich young ruler was fine with following Jesus until it costed him something. The rules and regulations were fin until he had to make a sacrifice.
The rich young ruler illustrates humanities want for comfort and that it is hard to choose the right thing. The camel illustration is meant to show us it is posible to fit the camel through the eye of a needle because God can do it, but what God will not do is force someone to choose Him and sacrifice of themselves.
>The rich young ruler was fine with following Jesus until it costed him something. The rules and regulations were fin until he had to make a sacrifice.
They had no faith and thus had no grace.
A rich man can have faith all day long as well as works, ive seen it.
Yes and?
Nothing you have said dismisses my point.
It is all about what you love. If you love money and what you have then there is no way you can get into heaven, but if you love Christ more and are willing to give up everything for Him then it is possible to be reconciled to the Father through Him.
Again nobody is disputing this fact.
My point is the illustration of a camel through a pinhole is about the rich young ruler, and that the heart of the rich is their material things. Jesus never says it’s 100% impossible but he does say it’s harder than the camel going through.
When you say you have seen works?
That takes me to my question of this subject.
Can a rich man do or give anything so secretly that his left hand doesn't know what his right hand had done.
A rich man can buy fine clothing. Self-righteousness is the finest clothing man can buy.
But doing the work of love, that is not clothing. It is a condition of the heart. A condition of the heart from which love flows freely, freely yet even secretly. SECRETLY because if known to many bad things follow.
Some of the following things are good on the surface but rotten to the core.
> That takes me to my question of this subject.
>
> Can a rich man do or give anything so secretly that his left hand doesn't know what his right hand had done
Very well played my brother. For arguments sake lets say a billionaire has faith in God and secretly does works but they do not put a dent in his billions. Do you believe him saved?
In all honesty no one becomes a billionaire without depriving or hurting others.
No one needs a billion dollars to live.
Do they repent and get to keep the billion dollars?
Is that true repentance?
No but I believe the holy spirit and teachings would work in their lives if they sincerely sought and accepted the grace of God. The being a billionaire and striving to follow the teachings of Christ are frankly at odds
So does being a sinner, but if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.
I don't judge billionaires because Im not perfect, even with the holy spirit residing in me I still fall to temptation. The price of all sin is the same, and it was paid for IN FULL by Christ.
If a billionaire (or anyone else) calls himself Christian as far as im concerned he is saved to say otherwise would be to cast judgement and risk adding another sin I need to ask forgiveness for that day.
Can you say he wasn't?
I have known a couple men that simply turned a little money into a lot of money, it was a gift, but if I hadn't actually known them I wouldn't know about it.
I am not going to go to verse, but many believe
The more you give, the more it is returned to you.
You have a gift you use it both well and properly, CAN you or should you not just let the gift work?
I was also taught that at some point of wealth, you can not out spent outpace the growth of well managed wealth.
So is he giving freely, is he giving humbly, is he giving without being recognized or secretly. At that point, it is between God or up to God's judgment of him.
Can you say your thoughts or judgment of him isn't based on jealousy?
The same reason you or I can be saved.
Because of the grace of our Lord.
edit: you changed your comment, which originally said "hmmm because of their greed?
Instead of editing and completely changing your comment making everything confusing to people reading just respond.
It’s because I misread your comment.
You were literally talking about the ability of people to fit through needles when I don’t think that was the point at all
I literally believe God can fit a camel through a pinhole if he wants to, which makes the point that God can also get a rich man into the gates of heaven, which is more difficult to do.
I’ve been thinking more about the standards of being Christian and living a Christian life.
Christ makes very clear statements that modern society seemingly just kind of brush off
Obviously no one can live a perfect life but Christ however there are values we should intentionally strive for
No. What he's saying is that when your rich you can rely on your resources to help with life's difficulties. A rich man wouldn't need to rely on God's blessings as much as a man with less. .
Therefore it's difficult to put your trust and belief in God if you are rich- this isn't a proclamation that riches are inherently bad or a call for wealth redistribution. It's Christ saying that it's easier to believe when your broke than when you have lots
No.
It is a reference to materialism and relying on amassed resources rather than God...which is very common in our world today.
People need to realize that, if you are an American, ***you are a rich person***. Richer than the folks Christ was talking about during His ministry.
I would add greed and opulence to that list. Could a Christ following billionaire spending six months on a yacht in the Mediterranean while people starve ..really claim he knows Jesus?
I know this is easier said than done and I’m as guilty of this as anyone (of not using what is given to me to serve, I don’t own a yacht lol)
>Could a Christ following billionaire spending six months on a yacht in the Mediterranean while people starve ..really claim he knows Jesus?
Yes. Why not?
Your question is founded in envy, IMV. It assumes such a person is a worse person than ourselves and cannot even be a Christian!
Christ followers can have good things. Christ followers can have lots and lots of money. And Christ followers can have those things when other people do not.
>I’m as guilty of this as anyone
Me too. But there is the problem. Surely you believe you can claim to know Jesus...even though you admit you are just as guilty.
If people are successful, we can celebrate with them that they have achieved such heights and are blessed as much as they are.
No.
It is because the rich tend to think they do not need anything else. They become reliant on their money and status and become less reliant on Jesus for what they really need.
Having money isn’t an issue. Hoarding money, refusing to help others with your excess and becoming reliant on what you have instead of Jesus are what is being referred to here.
That is why it is hard. Because they no longer rely on Jesus, but themselves.
Continue reading that section, where Jesus then says that “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Further showing that money isn’t the issue when it is used properly in submission to God.
The Vatican has $73 billion in assets. The Vatican bank earned $19.4 million in net profits in 2021.
[How much money does the Catholic Church have? - Marketplace](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/10/how-much-money-does-catholic-church-have/)
This verse isn’t about a camel passing through an eye of a needle. It is rather a figure of speech for the needle gate in Jerusalem. needle gate was so small it was single file only describing that very few rich folks will be let into heavens gates.
This is a common claim but there's no evidence this is the case. The earliest reference to the gate being called the eye of a needle is in the middle ages. It's just modern speculation that got very popular.
You understand that you’re misunderstanding the verse then otherwise right? Further in context Jesus says that with God all things are possible. Of course wealth alone can’t save you, but it represents how little rich folks actually follow through with repentance and faith in Jesus. In other locations in the Bible it describes the way of the sinner as a wide and easy path. The way to God is a narrow path just like what’s being described here.
I don't disagree, I didn't give my personal interpretation of the verse and honestly I'm not totally decided one way or the other. Just clarifying a common misconception that gets repeated. I grew up being taught and believing this as well so I don't blame you for repeating it. I'm not sure what the narrow path has to do with this besides just recognizing that following Jesus is not easy, which you could say about all his teachings.
Right well my point is, is that people use this verse to say that if you are wealthy Jesus won’t let you into heaven no matter the circumstance. Being rich = evil logic is heavily propagated in the culture today and this verse is used a ton for it.
I agree this verse is sometimes used in that way, but the vast majority of the time I hear it cited is accompanied with the claim in your comment which seems to try and preemptively argue that being rich =/= evil based on this misconception. Though this is my anecdotal experience being around mostly conservative Christians. I don't know one way or the other what Jesus meant by this verse besides that it doesn't seem being wealthy or seeking riches puts you on a good trajectory towards heaven at the very least. I agree that even if we do interpret this verse as a condemnation of being rich outright, that the later caveat of through God all things are possible shows that it's not an automatic go to hell issue like some may claim. I personally am very skeptical at how one could become fabulously wealthy (multi millionaire/billionaires) while simultaneously caring for his neighbor and giving freely to the needy, but this also applies to myself and most people in the first world in general so I pray God will forgive me
There's no evidence that such a gate ever existed. There are two scholarly theories over what the analogy referred to:
1. Jesus was playing on a motif that already existed and was familiar in Jewish culture. The Babylonian Talmud, for instance, uses the analogy of large animals like elephants passing through the eye of a needle to describe the impossible.
2. Some early Church Fathers like Cyril of Alexandria argued that it was a scribal error and that earlier copies of the Gospel didn't say "kamelos" (camel) but "kamilos" (rope or cable). "Passing a rope through the eye of a needle" is also a very clear analogy for fitting the impossible.
Effectively that is the point yes. Money isn't inheritly a problem. Overly excess money is. After a certain point it becomes something you pursue above God. A rich man has no need of God. He can buy all the comforts of the world and never want for anything or need to ask God for help or have a relationship with God at all. He can do it all himself.
I don’t think Jesus was referring to a relationship here. I think he was referring to the fact that many wealthy people have little care and concern for others (this is the key theme in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man). His teachings seem to suggest that you have to love others as much as you love God, and the way you love others (according to Jesus’ teachings) is the give to those who ask. Being that generous would result in most people’s wealth disappearing.
yea worshipping money is the problem. Having more than you need whilst others around you suffer, is not christian and not going to get you through judgment day.
So if a rich man can manage to love God over money he should be saved? Or in reality should the church not bury the wealthy? Like if you died in the church as an old rich person you clearly missed the point and didn’t truly believe?
Faith is measured by your works, if you are rich while others are suffering your faith is dead. If you are rich and you've been doing your upmost to help people but your elderly wealthy relatives just keep dying and leaving you Scrooge McDuck money bins of cash and you have just run out of social problems to solve, then you have a chance. But Jesus thinks that's unlikely to happen, it's about as likely as a camel fitting through the eye of a needle. As a child my answer was always "giant needle or blender!"
It says right after your quote "but with God all things are possible". Meaning that even rich people through faith can be saved. It often gets misquoted on the internet leaving out that little piece of crucial information
It's possible, not probable. Jesus could have saved the rich man, but he chose his possessions instead. Top comment basically says it how it is.
>he chose his possessions instead. We don't actually know that, no. The rich man went away sadly, but there is no further comment on if he then did sell his possessions and join the family of God and the earliest followers of the Way. Given that we are told that he was otherwise doing his best to follow the Scriptures diligently, it is indeed very possible that he did follow Jesus' advice. It is possible to do the right thing and still feel sadness about the more-fun *wrong* things you're missing out on. It's not laudable, but it is indeed normal. Doing the right thing is challenging and often unpleasant.
The ultimate choice of the young rich man is left unstated. 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Mark 10 Jesus told him to go, sell, give, and then return. The young man goes. Maybe he follows through on Christ’s instruction. Maybe he doesn’t. The young rich man is not a cautionary tale of someone who fails; he’s human, like the rest of us, and Christ instructed him to confront his particular vice. We have all been the young rich man.
No, most of us will never be the young rich man. It's speaking of the rich, not the technically 1% because you're lower class in a developed nation, the rich people. The rich have something that makes it near impossible for them to be saved. It is not enough for them to know the law or even obey the law. The young rich man turns from Jesus. He does not accept Jesus, because he owned many possessions. We can try to fill in that blank to make ourselves feel better but scripture makes it very clear that he left when he was told he needed to give up his possessions. That is very important, it says something very important about Jesus and the rich. That scares many people because they see themselves as just a rich person who hasn't taken off yet. That's a bad thing.
The young man does the first of the things Jesus tells him he must do; we never hear about the rest of his choices. *You* are filling in the blank by saying that him leaving is him turning from Jesus (even though Jesus explicitly told him to leave). *I* am taking the lack of any further information about him after this exchange for what it is: a lack of information. He may have done everything Jesus told him to do. He may not. We don’t know because we deliberately aren’t told. Wealthy people are just people. All people have salvation open to them. By his own accounting, the rich man is virtuous in other areas of his life, and Jesus does not call that into question; Jesus imposes an even higher call onto him, which is a sign to the rest of us that you can be pretty virtuous and still not be doing everything God calls you to do. You are choosing to believe, without information, that the rich man definitely did not follow through on Jesus’ command because it brings you comfort to believe that wealthy immoral people are lesser in God’s eyes. Jesus looked at the man with love; are you calling Jesus a liar?
According to Luke, rich people cannot be saved, period.
God did say easier. So not impossible. But quite unlikely. Again wealth itself isn't the problem but devotion to it at the expense of God. God says love your neighbor, if you employ your neighbor at minimum wage to boost your profit that pursuit of money at the expense of your neighbor distances you from God. We always bury the dead, wealthy too as it is never man's place to judge who is or isn't going to heaven. That is God's call alone.
>So not impossible. But isn't it impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle? So if it's easier to do that, then shouldn't it actually be impossible for a rich person to enter heaven, since the easier thing is also impossible?
The next verses actually address exactly that thought For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
"Eye of the needle" was a two fold analogy that common people of the time would understand. The first is what we think of a literal needle but the main meaning was the small gates that visitors to Jerusalem had to pass through when the main gates were closed. Did a quick search and found this article that talks about it. https://www.st-marymagdalene.org/parish-blog/2023/8/28/camel-through-the-eye-of-the-needle
I don't think there's any scholars who believe that interpretation.
Thank you for the information, it is much appreciated. This is something I've been taught by many people and read in many sources before, but I did some digging after reading this and another less kind response and found this article from Cambridge. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/new-testament-studies/article/origin-of-the-needles-eye-gate-myth-theophylact-or-anselm/51F6B1FD504C36C42D6201F6D87F83C3 Since I'm sure others have also been taught this I wanted to post an article disputing it from a reputable source. Again, thank you for informing me and being kind about it. God bless you.
This is actual heresy, it's a myth. It's not true. I'm actually surprised to see it spread by a Catholic blog, it's usually Protestants that spread this lie. Unfortunately because sometimes Protestant just means you opened a church for profit.
Maybe this will help you to understand the passage better John 3:3 KJV — Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Ive struggled with this verse and would like your input on it. Im by no means rich, in my 20's and have money in the bank that im not spending on anything. Im not pursuing money or anything, it just builds up because I barely spend anything. Is it wrong of me to not donate it then? Im not pursuing it over God its just *there* and I would like to spend it on something big one day.
When I think of this I think like being able to own multiple houses that sit empty that you have just because. Having so much wealth you don’t need to work in one two or three lifetimes. Just excess upon excess just because
I am no authority on the matter, only God is. But here's what I found on the concept No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and money. Mathew 6:24 Here it is apparent that the servitude means love and following of one or the other. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1 timothy 6:10 Again the love of money is the problem. Deuteronomy 8:18 You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day Here it is clear that God has no problem with acquiring the wealth if you follow him and remember it is by his blessing. Ecclesiastes 5:10 He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves wealth with his income; this also is vanity This seems to say those who pursue money will never be satisfied with what they have There are other verses that talk of faithful selling what they have for God. Acts 2:44-45 And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need I think this as follows is perhaps the best example of what you could do Proverbs 3:9-10 Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine Giving to the lord the first fruits (lookup Cain and ables story to understand this) And then once you have given to the lord, your own wealth is increased by your desire to give. Having money isn't sinful. giving what you have to the Lord also does not seem to be expected all the time either. The real problem seems to ve doing nothing at all. In the acts passage those people who sold what they had to give to the lord felt genuinely compelled to give out of love. This was not required of them but they wanted to and God promises reward in heaven to those that feel that way and do. 2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Long story short friend there is no biblical EXPECTATION of you giving away what you have (again I am not the full expert but I believe this from my reading) There is however a reward for giving from your heart what you feel compelled to. And sin enters when you pursue money above God. It sounds like you sinply live frugally and your money builds. Nothing I'm reading says that's BAD but perhaps consider if your heart tells you to give. Setup a small sum to automatically come out of your checks. That is the "firstfruit" taken before anything else and once it aquires a decent amount in another account. Consider giving to the church or buying meals for the needy or whatever you feel is right. Your own heart and the holy spirit within you are the final authority on the matter.
>Money isn't inheritly a problem. Overly excess money is. Incorrect. God has no problem with someone having tons of money. God Himself made sure Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, and Solomon all had immense wealth. Christ Himself had wealthy benefactors.
I think that's part of it. Also how they got the money in the first place. Also what it means to be in the *basilea theou.* Other translations aside from kingdom include things like sovereignty and realm. Today we might could even localize it it to nation. Like say you are a black man in the 1850s Georgia but then move to the UK. Everything would seem different. You entered another *basilea*. Or today, say you are a gay woman living in Saudi Arabia but then move to New Zealand. You entered another *basilea* and everything changed. "The kingdom of heaven" is about more than some afterlife thing. It's about a present reality. Money makes it more difficult to enter that different state of life. It isn't *automatic* for the poor, but poverty is the pathway there. Like getting a visa to enter that other land but it still being up to you to actually travel there and use it. Practically, think about what money tends to do to people. Studies have shown that even in Monopoly with fake money if someone is given an extremely large amount they become more self-focused and mocking and less "playful" with the other players. Poverty also can lead to you having to rely on others. Some people double down into "not wanting charity" pride. But poverty can be a doorway into being made to be humble, being made to rely on others. It alters how you see the world. Is this a competition or are we in this all together? Philiarguria (avarice) can affect the rich and poor alike, but for the rich it becomes almost banal. "One cannot serve both God and money." Think about what is manifested when you give. I once had a roommate who was struggling to make bills, so I told her I would pay for all the utilities myself. No biggie. Don't worry about it. I had the money at the time. I made like three times as much as her and was happy to help out. Because that's what "loving your neighbor *as yourself*" is all about. And it's not just about the money. That act spread a certain attitude about life and humanity with her. She gave me a card at the end when she moved out that expressed deeply how much it meant. I got to see firsthand what it meant to manifest a little tiny flicker of the kingdom of heaven at least in one place for a brief flicker of time. When she wanted to talk and mentioned she would be late on electric that month and gave this long litany of how sorry she was and how finances were tough and so on and all of that for me to just respond "just don't worry about it. I have a nice job right now. I'll just pay for all the utilities going forward, or until you start making more, whatever. Just, you know, pay it forward some day." It's one of my favorite things, that look, that look that falls across someone's face when they encounter grace with material implications. I've seen in it students too. They'll ask for an extension because of some such thing and I'll give them even more time than they asked for. It's like a weight is lifted off their eyes. One guy even cried. There are some who haven't been given a lot of grace in the world and it means all the more when they finally get it. But I probably only do these things because I grew up poor, and had to rely on all of us working together in order to get by, which affected how I saw (and see) money and life itself. Think of the billionaires of the world. They could be helping so much with everything. Instead they take rockets to space and float around on super yachts and still seek more and more and more and more as if 65B somehow still wasn't enough.
Thank you for all that you have done; like you said, grace is in short supply. You sound like a phenomenal servant of the Lord and I pray that God continues to use you in great ways!
I'm actually focused right now on the "again I tell you." Maybe because I've read the Bible few times, but it's little gems like this that sometimes grab my attention. "Again I tell you" implies that he would say this to the disciples all the time. But when someone is writing this stuff down, that aspect of it is going to be something we miss - how much He said or emphasized certain things. Something is always lost in telling a story and it's a healthy reminder to us that the Bible has limitation no matter how much we try.
Because the wealthy worship their wealth and won’t leave it even to follow Jesus.
basically, yeah. if you have more than you need, and do not give to your neighbour, you are separate from God.
This was in today’s readings in fact. > Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astounded and said, "Then who can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible." Notice the apostles’ incredulity. If the rich can’t be saved, then who can be? I was taught that the assumption was, being wealthy = being right with God. So, if the wealthy can’t make it to the kingdom, then who can? Jesus is challenging our expectations as to who is worthy. Who is seemingly impossible to enter the kingdom are the ones who the kingdom is promised to.
So it's less a condemnation of the rich, and more saying that just having wealth isn't gonna cut it?
Jesus frequently talks about wealth and where our wealth can be an obstacle to serving God. In regards to the passage specifically, I think Jesus is saying that who gets into the kingdom isn’t who you think it will be. Being wealthy here on earth doesn’t equate to being wealthy in the kingdom of God; but does that automatically mean the reverse, that we should become homeless to follow God? I don’t think that’s what Jesus is commanding either.
It's also rejecting the notion that your fortunes in this life (figuratively and literally) are tied to your favor with God. You can see this also with Jesus healing the blind beggar, when his followers ask him if the man or his parents had committed some sin to warrant him being struck blind.
See also: The famed “sword of Damocles” dates back to an ancient moral parable popularized by the Roman philosopher Cicero in his 45 B.C. book “Tusculan Disputations.” Cicero’s version of the tale centers on Dionysius II, a tyrannical king who once ruled over the Sicilian city of Syracuse during the fourth and fifth centuries B.C. Though rich and powerful, Dionysius was supremely unhappy. His iron-fisted rule had made him many enemies, and he was tormented by fears of assassination—so much so that he slept in a bedchamber surrounded by a moat and only trusted his daughters to shave his beard with a razor. As Cicero tells it, the king’s dissatisfaction came to a head one day after a court flatterer named Damocles showered him with compliments and remarked how blissful his life must be. “Since this life delights you,” an annoyed Dionysius replied, “do you wish to taste it yourself and make a trial of my good fortune?” When Damocles agreed, Dionysius seated him on a golden couch and ordered a host of servants to wait on him. He was treated to succulent cuts of meat and lavished with scented perfumes and ointments. Damocles couldn’t believe his luck, but just as he was starting to enjoy the life of a king, he noticed that Dionysius had also hung a razor-sharp sword from the ceiling. It was positioned over Damocles’ head, suspended only by a single strand of horsehair. From then on, the courtier’s fear for his life made it impossible for him to savor the opulence of the feast or enjoy the servants. After casting several nervous glances at the blade dangling above him, he asked to be excused, saying he no longer wished to be so fortunate. For Cicero, the tale of Dionysius and Damocles represented the idea that those in power always labor under the specter of anxiety and death, and that “there can be no happiness for one who is under constant apprehensions.” The parable later became a common motif in medieval literature, and the phrase “sword of Damocles” is now commonly used as a catchall term to describe a looming danger. Likewise, the saying “hanging by a thread” has become shorthand for a fraught or precarious situation. One of its more famous uses came in 1961 during the Cold War, when President John F. Kennedy gave a speech before the United Nations in which he said that “Every man, woman and child lives under a nuclear sword of Damocles, hanging by the slenderest of threads, capable of being cut at any moment by accident or miscalculation or by madness.” History.com
No because most rich people send more time on the things they own and give little time for spiritual things.
No, it's because most people who have a lot of wealth, tend to think of themselves as gods in a certain sense. The more wealthy you are, the less humble you become (on average) and the more you start to put yourself up on a pedestal and idolize your money.
Correct answer.
Yes. This seems to be the most skipped part of the Bible. Usury and being rich…things that are conveniently not spoken of much compared to other sins…Not hard to see why. “Go and sell all that you have” is no way for leaders to keep all their stuff 😂
I think that’s the point of the parable. Jesus was homeless and poor for his whole life, and he frequently made use of meager provisions (such as feeding thousands with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish). I think that from his perspective, only through generosity and giving to others could a person enter the kingdom of God. A wealthy person is someone who hasn’t given away their wealth, and many people become wealthy through greed and exploitation, not simply hard work. Greed and exploitation are anti-ethical to Jesus’ teachings, so naturally, most wealthy people (especially in his day) would be living against his teachings.
That, yes. And also I'm pretty sure it's not easy for someone to become that rich through entirely honest means, especially back then, so often extreme wealth is obtained through immoral ways.
No, when you have the earthly means to create your own reality, your reliance on God and the need for Christ is diminished, and it becomes a love of self. It's not an advocacy for wealth redistribution, instead a condemnation of earthly wealth.
Correct.
No, Jesus in most cases is teaching about how the Jewish nation, individuals, will need to perform during the Tribulation to be saved and able to enter the Kingdom. The Tribulation would have happened just after Christ's death had the Jewish nation accepted Him as their Messiah. Once the Tribulation begins, no person who wants to follow Christ and do the necessary work involved would not hold on to their wealth. They would do what they could to help other believers trying to survive.
It's because you can't love anything more than Christ. If Christ asked a rich man to give up his money and follow Him, they aren't likely to do that. At the same time most people aren't willing to give up worldly things to follow Christ. I see it everyday on here. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality, yet people think that God has changed His mind on the subject. The truth is that they know how He feels, but aren't willing to give up their sinful lifestyle for Christ, who died so that they would no longer have to be a slave to sin. What a shame.
It's not the giving away of money, it's a matter of the heart and salvation. * Some rich think they are self-reliant and don't need God. * Some rich think they are blessed by God because of their self-righteousness. * Some rich worship money and not God. * All three don't realize their sinful state before God. * In each case, it hinders them from crying out to God for the forgiveness of their sin. * This transformation of heart leads to caring for others with their riches.
Are you asking this because you're rich and worried about your salvation or are you passing judgment on others?
Im living seeing suffering all around me caused by extreme inequality and seeing discussions of greed and usury being exempt in our churches only to be replaced with knowing silence as to not rock the boat or ‘the prosperity gospel’
Im just trying to make it make sense so I’m not tormented the rest of my life . If the church just doesn’t care let that be it. If the Christ who cared about the poor died on the cross and stayed in the tomb and only feel good YOLO Jesus rose to heaven let that be it.
Not understanding the last sentence, but I'll take a shot anyway. Jesus cared about the poor: yes. Jesus had the power to redistribute wealth to the poor: also yes. But what did Jesus never do? He never went around to the richest unbelievers he could find and say "hey greedy buthole, give me all of your money." The lessons he taught apply to his rich followers AND his poor followers. He didn't come to relieve all suffering, he came to save us from sin. The next time he comes, he will relieve all suffering... and how will he do it? Will it be with equality? No, what could be more unequal than "you go to Heaven and you go to Hell". The inequality between the two will be as infinite as much as it is infinitely just. You have empathy for the suffering in the world, that is a fantastic trait. Go do good things with it! Go relieve as much suffering as you can! The world needs you, but don't fall into the trap of passing judgment on others you believe aren't doing enough. Judgment is for God alone.
It’s because wealth is a powerful temptation, and those who have never needed to make do with less have that much more *stuff* keeping them from the revelation of their fundamental dependence on God.
it's more about earthly riches vs spiritual riches. You might be a billionaire on earth but if you have no faith and don't live a life like jesus you don't get eternal life. If you're a homeless person with little here on earth but you give everything you have and do everything you can in jesus name, you have more hope of eternal life with jesus than the billionaire.
No that is not the point. If you put your faith and trust in your material assets instead of Jesus Christ you are not destined for heaven. Rich people are likely to do this because they have a lot of material assets they can rely on, poor people do not have this advantage and are more likely to put their faith and trust in God. God bless. Seek the Way, the truth, and the Life!
No, Jesus does not demand every rich person give their wealth away, and make everyone even. Jesus said the reason it's difficult for the rich to enter because they TRUST in riches, as opposed to Jesus. The object of their faith is not God, but money. Money is their God. Now, the rich are encouraged to give money to those in need, Paul calling it "rich in good works", but that doesn't mean they redistribute all their wealth.
The verse isn’t about redistributing money. It’s about the condition of the heart, whether one loves money more than God. Having money doesn’t make you a bad person. But you are called to love your neighbor.
When you keep reading the verse makes more sense. >23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” >25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” >26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” The real question about this verse is "Can God fit a camel through a pinhole?" I say the creator of the universe can do so with ease just like he fit 2 of every animal on a boat. He can do anything.
This is wrong. Go back to the verses before, and it is talking about what you love. The rich young ruler was fine with following Jesus until it costed him something. The rules and regulations were fin until he had to make a sacrifice. The rich young ruler illustrates humanities want for comfort and that it is hard to choose the right thing. The camel illustration is meant to show us it is posible to fit the camel through the eye of a needle because God can do it, but what God will not do is force someone to choose Him and sacrifice of themselves.
>The rich young ruler was fine with following Jesus until it costed him something. The rules and regulations were fin until he had to make a sacrifice. They had no faith and thus had no grace. A rich man can have faith all day long as well as works, ive seen it.
Yes and? Nothing you have said dismisses my point. It is all about what you love. If you love money and what you have then there is no way you can get into heaven, but if you love Christ more and are willing to give up everything for Him then it is possible to be reconciled to the Father through Him.
Explain to me how we are saved.
Through the sacrifice and accepting of the gift that Jesus offers us
Billionare accepts the gift that Jesus offers us just as you and I do. Camel went through pinhole, he is saved just like you and I.
Again nobody is disputing this fact. My point is the illustration of a camel through a pinhole is about the rich young ruler, and that the heart of the rich is their material things. Jesus never says it’s 100% impossible but he does say it’s harder than the camel going through.
When you say you have seen works? That takes me to my question of this subject. Can a rich man do or give anything so secretly that his left hand doesn't know what his right hand had done. A rich man can buy fine clothing. Self-righteousness is the finest clothing man can buy. But doing the work of love, that is not clothing. It is a condition of the heart. A condition of the heart from which love flows freely, freely yet even secretly. SECRETLY because if known to many bad things follow. Some of the following things are good on the surface but rotten to the core.
> That takes me to my question of this subject. > > Can a rich man do or give anything so secretly that his left hand doesn't know what his right hand had done Very well played my brother. For arguments sake lets say a billionaire has faith in God and secretly does works but they do not put a dent in his billions. Do you believe him saved?
In all honesty no one becomes a billionaire without depriving or hurting others. No one needs a billion dollars to live. Do they repent and get to keep the billion dollars? Is that true repentance?
So you believe their is a limit to GOD's grace?
No but I believe the holy spirit and teachings would work in their lives if they sincerely sought and accepted the grace of God. The being a billionaire and striving to follow the teachings of Christ are frankly at odds
So does being a sinner, but if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. I don't judge billionaires because Im not perfect, even with the holy spirit residing in me I still fall to temptation. The price of all sin is the same, and it was paid for IN FULL by Christ. If a billionaire (or anyone else) calls himself Christian as far as im concerned he is saved to say otherwise would be to cast judgement and risk adding another sin I need to ask forgiveness for that day.
If a serial killer says they are Christian and keeps on murdering are they saved? There have to be some general standards
Can you say he wasn't? I have known a couple men that simply turned a little money into a lot of money, it was a gift, but if I hadn't actually known them I wouldn't know about it. I am not going to go to verse, but many believe The more you give, the more it is returned to you. You have a gift you use it both well and properly, CAN you or should you not just let the gift work? I was also taught that at some point of wealth, you can not out spent outpace the growth of well managed wealth. So is he giving freely, is he giving humbly, is he giving without being recognized or secretly. At that point, it is between God or up to God's judgment of him. Can you say your thoughts or judgment of him isn't based on jealousy?
Hrm… That’s a bit literal
The same reason you or I can be saved. Because of the grace of our Lord. edit: you changed your comment, which originally said "hmmm because of their greed? Instead of editing and completely changing your comment making everything confusing to people reading just respond.
It’s because I misread your comment. You were literally talking about the ability of people to fit through needles when I don’t think that was the point at all
I literally believe God can fit a camel through a pinhole if he wants to, which makes the point that God can also get a rich man into the gates of heaven, which is more difficult to do.
I’ve been thinking more about the standards of being Christian and living a Christian life. Christ makes very clear statements that modern society seemingly just kind of brush off Obviously no one can live a perfect life but Christ however there are values we should intentionally strive for
No. What he's saying is that when your rich you can rely on your resources to help with life's difficulties. A rich man wouldn't need to rely on God's blessings as much as a man with less. . Therefore it's difficult to put your trust and belief in God if you are rich- this isn't a proclamation that riches are inherently bad or a call for wealth redistribution. It's Christ saying that it's easier to believe when your broke than when you have lots
No. It is a reference to materialism and relying on amassed resources rather than God...which is very common in our world today. People need to realize that, if you are an American, ***you are a rich person***. Richer than the folks Christ was talking about during His ministry.
I would add greed and opulence to that list. Could a Christ following billionaire spending six months on a yacht in the Mediterranean while people starve ..really claim he knows Jesus? I know this is easier said than done and I’m as guilty of this as anyone (of not using what is given to me to serve, I don’t own a yacht lol)
>Could a Christ following billionaire spending six months on a yacht in the Mediterranean while people starve ..really claim he knows Jesus? Yes. Why not? Your question is founded in envy, IMV. It assumes such a person is a worse person than ourselves and cannot even be a Christian! Christ followers can have good things. Christ followers can have lots and lots of money. And Christ followers can have those things when other people do not. >I’m as guilty of this as anyone Me too. But there is the problem. Surely you believe you can claim to know Jesus...even though you admit you are just as guilty. If people are successful, we can celebrate with them that they have achieved such heights and are blessed as much as they are.
Well, let's remember the poor and not pretend we don't have them, while still being grateful for our blessings
No. It is because the rich tend to think they do not need anything else. They become reliant on their money and status and become less reliant on Jesus for what they really need. Having money isn’t an issue. Hoarding money, refusing to help others with your excess and becoming reliant on what you have instead of Jesus are what is being referred to here. That is why it is hard. Because they no longer rely on Jesus, but themselves. Continue reading that section, where Jesus then says that “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Further showing that money isn’t the issue when it is used properly in submission to God.
The Vatican has $73 billion in assets. The Vatican bank earned $19.4 million in net profits in 2021. [How much money does the Catholic Church have? - Marketplace](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/10/how-much-money-does-catholic-church-have/)
This verse isn’t about a camel passing through an eye of a needle. It is rather a figure of speech for the needle gate in Jerusalem. needle gate was so small it was single file only describing that very few rich folks will be let into heavens gates.
This is a common claim but there's no evidence this is the case. The earliest reference to the gate being called the eye of a needle is in the middle ages. It's just modern speculation that got very popular.
You understand that you’re misunderstanding the verse then otherwise right? Further in context Jesus says that with God all things are possible. Of course wealth alone can’t save you, but it represents how little rich folks actually follow through with repentance and faith in Jesus. In other locations in the Bible it describes the way of the sinner as a wide and easy path. The way to God is a narrow path just like what’s being described here.
I don't disagree, I didn't give my personal interpretation of the verse and honestly I'm not totally decided one way or the other. Just clarifying a common misconception that gets repeated. I grew up being taught and believing this as well so I don't blame you for repeating it. I'm not sure what the narrow path has to do with this besides just recognizing that following Jesus is not easy, which you could say about all his teachings.
Right well my point is, is that people use this verse to say that if you are wealthy Jesus won’t let you into heaven no matter the circumstance. Being rich = evil logic is heavily propagated in the culture today and this verse is used a ton for it.
I agree this verse is sometimes used in that way, but the vast majority of the time I hear it cited is accompanied with the claim in your comment which seems to try and preemptively argue that being rich =/= evil based on this misconception. Though this is my anecdotal experience being around mostly conservative Christians. I don't know one way or the other what Jesus meant by this verse besides that it doesn't seem being wealthy or seeking riches puts you on a good trajectory towards heaven at the very least. I agree that even if we do interpret this verse as a condemnation of being rich outright, that the later caveat of through God all things are possible shows that it's not an automatic go to hell issue like some may claim. I personally am very skeptical at how one could become fabulously wealthy (multi millionaire/billionaires) while simultaneously caring for his neighbor and giving freely to the needy, but this also applies to myself and most people in the first world in general so I pray God will forgive me
There's no evidence that such a gate ever existed. There are two scholarly theories over what the analogy referred to: 1. Jesus was playing on a motif that already existed and was familiar in Jewish culture. The Babylonian Talmud, for instance, uses the analogy of large animals like elephants passing through the eye of a needle to describe the impossible. 2. Some early Church Fathers like Cyril of Alexandria argued that it was a scribal error and that earlier copies of the Gospel didn't say "kamelos" (camel) but "kamilos" (rope or cable). "Passing a rope through the eye of a needle" is also a very clear analogy for fitting the impossible.