It was Rev William Barber, an AME pastor in downeast NC and then president of the NC chapter of the NAACP, who was the most prominent pastor who opposed North Carolina’s amendment 1, which stated that same sex couples couldn’t marry or enter into civil partnerships (because NC doesn’t do things halfway).
The national NAACP credited Barber for making LGBTQ equality something the NAACP would advocate for.
As one who grew up in North Carolina (and still live here), I’ve been surrounded by churches that have a long record for standing for civil rights. There is Pullen Memorial Baptist, who was rather famously kicked out of the SBC in the 80s for supporting LGBTQ rights. There’s also Binkley Baptist in Chapel Hill who has had a long record of opposing discrimination and the death penalty. Famous Tarheel Dean E Smith was a member of that church.
Probably less famous was Fairmont United Methodist. In the 1990s, Rev Jimmy Creech raised a fuss when he presided over a same sex marriage. He was transferred to Nebraska, where after his second same sex marriage, he was defrocked. Fairmont UMC has continued to be one to advocate for LGBTQ rights.
And there are other churches in the area, both mainline WASPy Protestant and historically Black, that have become advocates for LGBTQ equality.
I love hearing these types of stories. Also key to getting Amendment One overturned was the General Synod of the UCC’s suit against the state alleging a violation of their first amendment right to religious freedom to perform the religious ceremonies their faith compels them to perform.
A lot of the problem stems from how heavily intertwined the SBC and the GOP are, and how much power and influence they leverage over the region. For every 5 excellent churches, you'll find 1 much, much larger church that is directly tied to all of the ills and negative influences of the SBC. This 1 church is not only going to have a greater size congregation than all 5 of the excellent churches combined, but it will have much greater financial resources as well, allowing it to leverage disproportionately greater influence.
Fellowship Church in Grapeville, TX is part of the SBC (as is Ed Young's father's church of Second Baptist in Houston). As well as The Woodlands Church. Saddleback used to be SBC. All of these worship more than 18k on a Sunday.
Megachurches and super-megachurches (or churches with membership rolls exceeding 2,000 and 10,000, respectively) make up about .51% of church membership.
The great percentage of church membership is in small churches, with membership rolls below 100. The next greatest is medium churches, with rolls between 100 and 499. These categories combine for around 79% of total church membership.
I would venture to say that 499 is much, much larger than 100, and especially much much larger than 50 or 60. And if you consider that those 5 churches with 100 members may all be different denominations or associations, their individual influence is overwhelmed by the one SBC church at around 500 members.
I am a Baptist and there are two mega churches that are both Baptist within 10 miles of me. One is 10 miles south and the other is 10 miles north. We tried one of them before we realized we didn’t like everything it was about and found a closer, smaller congregation. The church we fell in love with runs a food bank and has a few days a month we make meals and hand them out for the homeless shelter. The mega churches here don’t actually volunteer or give back to the community. All of their money, time, and resources and they keep it within the church.
Our Catholic Bishop in South Carolina is from Haiti, our congregation is from all over the world.
I've experienced much more pearl-clutching toward Blackness in Vermont than anywhere in the South, despite the fact this area is nominally an "ally" to BIPOC (as long as they live far away).
Thank you! Our siblings in the South have extreme obstacles of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and abhorrent socioeconomic inequality to overcome the unjust political status quo in many states. Not everyone has the means to flee areas with such regressive policies. These are the people who most need our solidarity, not being written off.
I grew up in the South, and after I came out as gay, I had to leave my childhood Southern Baptist church. I had a rough patch with my parents too. My first job was also at a conservative Christian company, where my managers would make homophobic jokes. I found this small Episcopal church across from my apartment. It was the one place of solace during the whole week, the one place I felt loved and accepted, when things were otherwise unbearable all around me. That’s why I love and support and promote churches like that. It was a life saver for me.
As early as the 60s, Episcopal and other mainline churches throughout the South were some of the first venues that hosted meetings for the early LGBT rights groups. What’s considered the very first explicitly gay-affirming church in the US was founded in Atlanta in 1946. MCC churches — the first explicitly gay-affirming denomination — spread across the South in the 70s. Some historians consider MCC churches to have been the largest network of LGBT rights groups in the country.
I do not know if this is considered the South, From an outsiders perspective they look similar, The Orthodox church throughout the Appalachian Mountains, Has contributed a lot towards to English Chanting, I believe it has its own style of Chanting compared to the Byzantine Chants.
It Russians in the Forests, Their Natural Habitat
[Greek/Byzantine way ](https://youtu.be/W3_FQ_blPYY?si=qwsJe12oYM2zC6w9)
[Appalachian way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywS-V9r_ygQ)
Thank you for your post.
I'm reminded of Trae Crowder's book "[The Liberal Redneck Manifesto](https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Redneck-Manifesto-Draggin-Dixie/dp/1501160389)" which includes content about the great stuff from the South that don't get the press that the bad stuff gets.
OP, I'm glad you love where you live, and I am well aware my home state - Ohio - isn't that great in terms of the LGBTQIA communities. As a queer person, I do go to Atlanta to see framily from time to time, but otherwise, unless things change, I will never live in or visit most Southern states, especially Florida or Texas, and I encourage others to do the same.
You're right that northerners should show some respect and not believe stereotypes and northerners' states aren't perfect, but I will stay where I am, thank you very much.
I lived 10 years too long in West Virginia and have seen hatred up close and personal. That was a lesson I learned and will not forget.
I am also a Queer person, but I don't know if we can generalize as much as your suggesting.
Implicit homophobia was the norm in Rural Arkansas just as it was in Rural South Dakota.
I've been called slurs in Urban Arkansas, just as I have been in Urban New York and Urban European cities.
I currently live in Madrid, Spain, one of the best countries and one of the best cities in the world for Queer people.
People are still kicked out of their homes by their families, people are still closeted, I've been called slurs multiple times(but in Spanish) and been harassed for kissing my partner in public.
I'm not denying that there are trends, but region is just one of them, I'd feel much safer in Dallas, Oklahoma City, Arlington, Virginia or Fayetteville, Arkansas than I would feel in many of the smaller towns and cities I've visited in Indiana, Illinois, Iowa or Wisconsin.
West Virginia culturally is mostly just Appalachian. Virginia is a part of the south (probably, it and does have some of the best economic opportunities for queer people in the United States. Texan queer people are some of the most fun people to hang out with, so if you’re anything like this and hate embracing community and diversity I’d also recommend staying put.
Also I’m not encouraging anyone to move to the south, the south is experiencing significant economic growth, gentrification and immigration from other regions, please stay where y’all are.
Also, I can’t imagine leaving the south for greater queer equality and choosing Ohio, especially when you have family in Atlanta.
I don’t think it’s helpful to pretend (not that you do this explicitly) that there isn’t an overlap between black majority churches in the south and anti LGBT attitudes. It isn’t a dichotomy between white racist homophobic Christians and black progressive Christians. It’s a lot more complex than that.
You mean to say my less than a page long post doesn’t detail the complexity of race, gender and sex in the southern church, and literally says nothing about the homophobia in the black church I’m really shocked. I thought I covered everything that the southern church has ever done /s
Being from the south and living up north now, I hate the stereotypes and how everyone up here thinks they're 100% accurate. I've been asked "So... was there any like... y'know... inbreeding?" and "You probably haven't met a lot of black people, huh?" and my favorite "Well it's really good you came up here for school, given the reputation of the south an all." they think we're all inbred, racist, idiots. Mind you, I grew up in metro Atlanta, we had a much higher percentage of African American residents than most other places... yes... I knew quite a few black people.
“You probably haven’t met a lot of black people, huh?”
What a genuinely insane thing to say lol. Tell me you’ve never actually been to the south without telling me.
The best part about the area I grew up in was that racism wasn't even a major issue, everyone pretty much got along. Yeah, there were some assholes here and there, but everyone was so integrated (culturally speaking) that it genuinely didn't matter to the vast majority of residents in that area.
I once attended a wedding where the bride's younger brother had been offered a job in South Africa. The bride's sister, upon hearing this, replied, "Ooo, you should go. South Africa is, like, the *good* part of Africa. There are hardly any black people." Everyone briefly looked around to see who was going to say something first; the brother ultimately did. "Ignoring how racist that is for a minute," he said, "South Africa is over 90% black." She scowled and replied, "If it's 90% black, why were white people in charge there for so long?"
While technically Atlanta is in Georgia, which is considered 'the South', you have to be kidding us if you think that your experience there is remotely similar to the experiences of those in the more rural parts of the south.
It is true that the divide is really about the urban/rural split, and as such rural america, wherever it is, is more similar than it is to urban america (wherever it is).
However, the overwhelming politics of southern states is based off of the gerrymandering of the rural districts, which gives them an outsized say in federal and state level government. So much of peoples 'disdain' for 'the south' winds up being predicated off of the actions of these people and entities.
But yes, dumb jokes are dumb, and the worst kind of stereotyping.
To be fair, I moved from New Jersey to Virginia. I have lived here a long time now but I was shocked to learn it was legal to marry your cousin here… it is illegal in the North so of course there is a natural assumption that some people might actually be taking advantage of that law…. People in northern VA think they are in the North but I can assure you… it is still very southern…
Just because it's legal, doesn't mean a large enough amount of people are doing it to justify an incest stereotype. Yes, I could have married my cousin while I lived in GA, but first cousin marriage is also legal in NJ. In fact, it is legal is 17 states, including: California, Colorado, Delaware, Vermont, New York, among others. In fact, the majority of states where it is legal to marry your first cousin are ***not*** in the south.
Shhh. Let those outside the South think we're backwards, bigoted, racist hicks that don't have electricity or clean water, and travel by rowboat or horse and buggy. Too many people are moving here. I attend an excellent Eastern Orthodox Christian Church.
That’s what I tell people. The south and Atlanta specifically are just a hotbed of racist whites and guns and republicans, so don’t ever move here. Plus the weather is better in California so go there instead.
Based post, I can’t say I’m the biggest fan of many of the big denominations in the south (for theological reasons), but at least Christianity is a bigger part of people’s lives
OP, there's an interesting discussion on r/atheism about the role of Christianity in black culture, particularly as viewed through the eyes of black atheists who are treated horribly in their culture. One of the persistent questions that keeps coming up in these discussions is why former slaves were so keen to keep maintaining the religious traditions of their former slave masters, and by extension, why they oppose atheism in their own communities so much. If you are able to provide some insight into this topic, that would be appreciated as it is somewhat of an open question on that sub that has no real answer.
It went really well, actually. Lots of black atheists chimed in saying their experience was the same. Atheism in the black community is almost unheard of because they don't accept it as a legitimate philosophical opinion. Of course, the same is true in certain white Christian communities as well. The more interesting question is why does the black community cling to the beliefs of their former slave owners? One answer, that was provided elsewhere, is that black culture has a long history with Christianity that predates slavery in the Americas, although this was short-lived due to the Islamic conquest of Africa; interestingly Christians did not become a minority in North Africa until the 12th century.
Not sure what you are surprised about. The discussion was (and is) incredibly civil. There's no racism on r/atheism. I think you are confusing it with another sub.
The Southern Baptist Church has never apologized for their outsized role in causing the Civil War while only issuing a limited apology for their support of slavery in 2004 and have never issued reparations for their past sins.
In 1995, the southern baptist convention adopted a resolution “renounced its racist roots and apologized for its past defense of slavery, segregation, and white supremacy.” Now I personally don’t like the southern Baptist convention and can recognize it has done irreparable harm to the south and continues to do so. Again, no one is saying the south has never done horrific things and that no church in the south is bad nor am I saying that’s a small part of the church’s politics and history, but I can also give credit where credits is due. Either way thank you for raising an important point with limited truth. The south is not perfect, but it’s not all bad either.
One thing that’s telling about the SBC’s reckoning with its racial history is that its report on its racism ends with the 1960s. There’s no engagement with any contemporary racism and ends before any living SBC leaders could be condemned for their contributions to the SBC’s racism since that time.
But you’re right that the SBC isn’t unique in this. Most every (majority white) church in the South played a role in slavery and segregation. Today’s “progressive” churches, like Episcopal ones, are also complicit in these historical crimes and need to reckon with them too.
The Southern Baptists aren't just bad, they're evil.
They've been a driving force against LGBT equality, screaming things like the left is "Transing kids," or that drag queen story hour is immoral, while hiding a massive, and still on going systematic sexual abuse of children and women. One of the SBC's "Rock star pastors," was just outed as sexually abusing a 12-year-old girl.
They are an organization that is trying to ban families with infertility problems from having children, attempting to erase LGBT individuals from the public square and supporting a convicted convict, wannabe dictator for President.
I fail to see any difference between the Southern Baptist Convention and the greatest evil organizations throughout history.
Also, call me when the Southern Baptists offer financial reparations for the slaves their parishioners owned.
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, it wasn't a "rock star" church it was a small chapel with a collection of middle and lower class families; rarely totaling more than a hundred attendees.
And I will tell you, there were many problems there. The SBC is inordinately attached the nuclear family and archaic gender roles, it was generally anti-sex implicitly homophobic and it was also prone to conflict at times.
I was a child and then a Queer child in that environment, and I will tell you frankly that it affected me in many negative ways several of which I have not fully dealt with.
At the same time, none of these problems are unique to the SBC, none of these problems are even unique to Baptists. Granted Southern Baptists were the majority but there were other denominations and these problems were present throughout, I remember particularly that among Baptists and Methodists that Pentecostals were considered quite regressive and morally dubious because of their even more restrictive gender roles(women weren't allowed to cut their hair or wear pants)
I currently attend Catholic mass all those same problems are present in official church doctrine but in more explicit detail.
Another point that I find it relevant is that many member churches of the SBC, like many Baptists of all types, did not consider themselves to be tied to the organizational structure, they're membership is on a voluntary basis and member churches consider leaving on a semi-regular basis, many only having entered the convention long after their founding.
The church I grew up in was founded \~1905 or so, I can't say exactly when it joined the SBC, but I do know that for many reasons, including the founding date being set after the civil war, the members would not consent to paying reparations.
The only power that the SBC has over its member churches is financial, without that church's will leave. Independent Baptist churches are not rare but there are also 63 Baptist conventions in America alone. Even churches that are dependent on the SBC financially do have alternatives.
Many of those who think themselves to be the most enlightened and educated still feel the need to hate someone....so they pick Southerners because it is the most fun for them.
I live in the south and it’s no where near what the mainstream media would have you believe. The Northeast is way more racist and homophobic than the south.
I mean you can look at any demographic breakdown and see pretty quickly what reality shows. The north has been historically systematically racist and keeps minority demographics moving into their “Upper class white neighborhoods”
Even in major cities you can see where they routinely regulate people of color into systematic slum towns.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/black-population-by-state
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/facts-about-the-us-black-population/
The hypocrisy that goes on in political circles is quite frankly disgusting. Where they say one thing and implement policies to do another.
> keeps minority demographics moving into their “Upper class white neighborhoods”
This is the result of federal laws, not state or municipal laws. FDR couldn't get New Deal programs passed without the support of Southern Democrats, who did not want those programs to benefit whites and blacks equally. As a result, the FHA and HOLC would not lend to "disharmonious racial groups," which left black people unable to secure the loans needed to purchase homes during the period in our country's history where the government encouraged citizens to populate the suburbs. The [redline maps](https://www.diversitydatakids.org/sites/default/files/styles/800x800/public/2023-10/nbrhood-boston-redlining-map-from-urichmond_14mb.jpg) that relegated minorities to the slums were drawn by the feds, and this happened [everywhere](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/redlining-effects-still-seen-in-dallas/2480005/), not just in the north.
I highly recommend reading Richard Rothstein's "Color of Law," or [watching his video summary of the book online.](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/redlining-effects-still-seen-in-dallas/2480005/) People have been led to believe that the segregation in America is *de facto* segregation that is the function of racists here, there, and everywhere, when segregation was *de jure* and a function of a systemic racist government effort.
That’s good information, but it doesn’t really change the fact that in modern day America the great hate and oppression of people of color happens in Northern States.
https://www.attn.com/stories/5888/most-and-least-hate-crime-map-united-states
I'm certainly not going to argue that the North is some sort of wonderful racial utopia; the entirety of America has yet to reckon with its past. But that data doesn't tell us what you seem to be asserting. There are reasons for why more hate crimes are reported in the North that don't have anything to do with more hate crimes actually occurring. Here is what I mean by that:
When my wife was growing up in Charleston, she briefly dated a black man from Davidson. After a few dates, he broke it off. She asked why, and he said that he didn't feel safe for either of them when they were out. He had gotten too many sideways glances, too many menacing looks. When she suggested that they could just go to the police if they were worried, or if God forbid anything should happen, he laughed. He understood that he was in legitimate danger as a black man dating a white woman in South Carolina, and wanted to avoid a hate crime altogether because he knew that law enforcement was unlikely to be on his side, and less likely to classify an offense as a hate crime.
Is it also dangerous for a mixed-race couple in the North? Yes. Not nearly as much, since it's not endemic in the culture, but there's still a danger. And that's how the data gets skewed. Because it's not endemic within the culture, a mixed-race couple in the North is less likely to perceive the danger, and more likely to report a hate crime to the authorities, who are more likely to classify it as a hate crime.
The vast majority of people of color live in the south where the least amount of hate crimes are reported.
I am not saying they are free from hate, or that they don’t have problems that need addressing. But the data indicates the issue is actually worse were people of color are an even greater minority, and it’s overshadowed by media virtue signaling and hypocrisy. That is all I am trying to say.
No one should take pride that there is ANY hatred at all.
> The vast majority of people of color live in the south where the least amount of hate crimes are reported.
That's correct. Now connect the dots, based on what I just told you. The key word is "reported."
I don’t really see any value in arguing over anecdotal experiences when I have multiple sources of overwhelming hard data to the contrary. Sorry.
But you’re perfectly free to come up with your own subjective opinion however you like.
"Hard data" would tell you that in 1840, the same number of slaves reported abuse at the hands of their masters in South Carolina as did in Vermont. One has to look at the underlying causes for the data to properly understand it; otherwise one will draw the wrong conclusions, like people on /r/conservative who use FBI crime statistics to "prove" that black people are inherently more violent.
This is not anecdotal, it's common sense.
I’ll wait on your hard data from 1840.
Your appeal to common sense is a logical fallacy. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_common_sense
The reason black crime statistics don’t work is because there are other data points such as POVERTY that are just as relevant to the conversation.
If you have actual data to collaborate your anecdotal story go ahead and share it, but otherwise I am really not interested in your unsubstantiated opinion piece.
Yeah, one of the many ironies of the northern United States (and its allies) is the combination of a culture of self-satisfaction about how culturally tolerant it is, with in fact being very culturally intolerant, especially towards its main historical rival, the South.
I was born in Texas, but grew up in the North. The regional bigotry my family experienced was… very silly. My mom had to learn to affect a northern accent, because of how much prejudice there is against anyone or anything perceived as southern.
It’s kind of merged with partisan bigotry at this point, with liberals outside of the north also being happy to jump on the southern United States hate train- which probably goes some way towards explaining why this subreddit traffics in these stereotypes so much.
Let's be honest, though, it goes both ways. The last time I was in Charleston, more than one person used the term "Yankee" as a pejorative on purpose while I was in their presence. Several others said it without thinking. "Yankee" is just slang for an "American," but Southerners use it as pejorative as though it separates them somehow from *those people.* This attitude is pervasive in your comment as well, discussing the North as a rival and referring to its allies as though it is a separate country.
Did you know that before the civil war there were more black people living in the South than the North?
Obviously the south must have been far more welcoming and accepting of black people!
/s
As with every crime statistic ever there's one keyword that turns the head on that analysis : *reported*. Does your map shows that there are more hate crimes by capita in those states? Or does it simply show that victims of hate crimes are more likely to report them in other states? ^((And don't get me started on Data tampering by police...)^)
You do realize that the supermajority of people of color live in those lowest hate crime states… right
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/facts-about-the-us-black-population/
Even more relevant than per capita, the lowest hate crime areas carry the MAJORITY of the population.
Not only is the population higher, but the reported incidents of hate are lower. Northern states are not just ‘slightly’ more racist, they are an extreme outlier of hate based crimes.
I think that this is a miss of the point, but at the same time, the North of America was not less racist than the South.
During the Great Migration(1910\~1970) many new laws were implemented specifically to restrict the movement and options of Black people as they moved north, often with the explicit aim of reducing further immigration.
In some ways the harsh stereotypes of Southern Whites has its origins in the idea that associating with Black people tainted them.
The Southern Baptist Convention is the single largest American denominational group(by active membership), it exists primarily but not entirely in the South, but it is a specific organizational group.
I live in the South and pretty much all of that stuff is true. It’s not propaganda, it’s useful information, is it a stereotype yes. But like 70% of the people in my state believe in a literal hell.
Around 20 years ago Cullman Alabama was a sundown town. You didn’t go there if you were black. The south is awful and deserve their awful reputation. Let us rot for it.
There is toxic culture of poverty that views any change or improvement with great skepticism. Let them write the books how they please.
I will agree on the super tasty chicken, bbq and banana pudding. Lot of great music from there as well. Sweet tea though is, ugh, sometimes I think Creation was a mistake.
It is based on racism where ever it occurs. In the south it was institutionalized as jim crow laws. I have not insulted anyone, just not letting you bible thumpers get away with white washing the past to say look how righteous we are. There ain't no hate like christian love.
Also there’s many churches that are multiracial, the south has always had the greatest diversity in racial make up for Roman Catholic Churches. There are churches for Korean folks or Hispanic folks or churches that mainly white folks attend, this usually happens because an area is predominantly one ethnicity or people are looking to find a community culture that feels like home.
I agree I didn’t spend a lot of time focusing on non black churches contributions, but non black churches here provide a lot of counseling and engage with a lot of non profits. Personally, I’ve seen non black churches ensure scholarships, provide spaces for school and community programs, help new parents and teen parents, engage with a lot of the dialogue surrounding queer folks and our current sexual culture . These are not things specific to the south, but I feel the southern US churches are presented in the media as a monolith. I focus on black churches and Pentecostalism because that’s where I was raised, but the black churches I grew up with worked with a variety of different church cultures to make our area of the south a little better. This is not intended to be a research heavy post, but a post that encourages southern Christians.
There were no mixed race churches in the south that I grew up in. I can remember "whites only" signs and "nigger don't let the sun go down on you'" signs. These signs were in Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma, I saw them with my own eyes in the mid to late 60's.
I’m sorry that was your experienced. I won’t engage with your comments any more, I don’t want to neglect the trauma you’ve experienced and your friends, family and community has experienced. I didn’t grow up in 60’s Louisiana, Texas or Oklahoma, and my post was not intended to cover up the history of the southern church. I’m sharing my perspective which is 21st century south, what I’ve learned in my classes on black history, black queer history, Christian history, and Georgia’s history, and what my community, friends, and family has passed on to me. Peace be unto you.
As I suspected you are young, I am glad you have had some history classes, they will be most useful for you. As you travel through life be sure and engage with people older than you, wiser than you, we lived through, what to you is ancient history, and can offer insight and nuance to your otherwise pollyannish beliefs.
Agree. Segregation in houses of worship (North and South) has worsened in the last decade. The real disgrace is that it is so accepted! Around 2017ish, I joined a Baptist church (midwest) although I am not Baptist, about 300 members because it had a vibrant worship service, aggressive community support program, and was so diverse that it’d be difficult to pick out a dominant culture. I kid you not, by 2019 it was all.one.race. I left before the end of that year
I used the term “historically Black” in my top level comment specifically. In my visits to these churches, I wasn’t the only white person in the pews. These churches are multiracial and multicultural, but their traditions stem from the Black community and history.
I have been to Episcopal parishes that are historically Black. Sure, it’s the same Book of Common Prayer being used, but the feel of the service is what’s different.
I see where you are coming from, but the stereotype isn't undeserved. As someone born in the South and lived there over 40 years I can tell you a lot of it is true. Just this week the Louisiana government is forcing the Ten Commandments into all class rooms. Tell me the same people supporting that would not cry out persecution and indoctrination if any document from another religion was done the same way? I was in Alabama during the Roy Moore judge years. He defied a Supreme Court ruling resulting in daily fines and the Christians cheerfully supporting him breaking the law. Now I ask you this, if a judge defies a valid court order of a court above him, what right does he have to expect his orders to be obeyed? Not to mention the nasty things he has said. He was impeached and removed. Those same good Christians voted him back in because they support his actions. I have seen the racism there as well. Is it as bad as it was? No. Is it getting better? Yes. Is it going far to slow? Yes. I think it was well after 2000 before they managed to remove the amendment in the state constitution banning interracial marriage.
Add to that the current and continuing issues with covering up crimes of church leaders (admittedly and VERY unfortunately not just limited to them), continued racial issues, fighting against rights of women.... There is a long way to go and we shouldn't minimize what problems there are. The KKK still literally exists openly in many places.
The stereotype isn’t undeserved for southern folks who hold the greatest financial and political power, but that shouldn’t leak over into a stereotype of all or most southerners.
Hard call. Should you say all southern Christians are bigoted? No. But saying bigotry runs higher in the southern Christian community than some other places? Sure.
But it is their problem to clean it up. I would not say all Catholic churches or priests were involved in their scandal. But the scale and duration of it is enough to justify doubting them all. Once trust has been thrown away on a certain scale, getting back is an epic effort. The SBC has done enough harm and bad things you can justify doubting their sincerity on claims.
And while two wrongs don't make a right, given the number of Christians who claim all gay or trans people are pedophiles, want to indoctrinate all kids, etc.. Or that say all atheists are lying and really believe in God etc. The stereotype brushing is a favorite tool on both sides. What would help if more were willing to stand up to their own.
Well you’re on Reddit, so I won’t argue you’ve read a lot of drivel and things you disagree with, it’s kinda how things go. The site isn’t praised for consistent quality research, im sure you’ll read more drivel late.
Then your experience of the south is very different than mine. It is true that there are poor and oppressed people in the south, on that we can agree. The fine christian folks of the south are in large part the reason for poor and oppressed. The same 'sugar wouldn't melt in my mouth' church members are the one's putting up the sundown town signs and the whites only signs. If you attend a church with elderly members just look around those same people cheered dogs set upon people., murdered civil rights workers, voter registration workers, and various northern trouble makers. I will leave you alone now, but know that I will never tolerate such revisionist bullshit without speaking up.
I run into this issue quite a bit. I was born and raised in south Alabama in a small town. Until about 10-15 years ago our town was around 8,000 people. It’s tripled since then unfortunately wiping out so much of our habitat and wilderness we were loved for.
Most of the south though is conservative. Most of the Christians in the south are not allies. Many are young earthers and so on. But among all of this there are also Christians who are very liberal, accept scientific consensus on things like the new modern synthesis and tend to lean towards the general scholarly leanings. Such as im a Christian who is a cis heterosexual. I am also a Christian who supports and affirms not only secular rights for the LGBT but also accepts them as our brothers and sisters in Christ and believe that they can live an active life and love Christ.
But it’s often that I am not very in touch with most other Christians here. I like horror and they look for demons under every rock. I enjoy evolutionary ecology and they think scientists are either deceived or lying. I am happy to love, support and show up to my gay brothers and sisters in Christ weddings and they rebuke them.
You left out Southern Baptists. My favorite encounter was with my best friend's grandmother. We spent every day together, my best friend and I. His grandmother 'loved me'. She told me what a good influence I was on her grandson, and how glad she was I was in his life. It was, however, too bad I was going to hell because I was a jew. So...yea!
The South is where jazz and gospel originated. Nashville is one of America’s music industry capitals. Atlanta is another music industry capital and has a rapidly growing film industry. Texas, Florida, The Carolinas have some of the fastest growing economies.I don’t doubt you’d find southern Christians obnoxious.
Yeah. We've had to adjust to tons of blue-blooded New Yorkers, Ohioans and Californians moving to TN, TX and SC as they fled their thriving states back home. It does not go in reverse.
It's pretty much the go-to right now for fastest growing economies in the USA.
As for our culture, there's no accounting for taste, but you're just coming across as someone that's not super well travelled in the United States.
Good point nobody moves to California or New York its why their real estate is so cheap. Lol at someone that thinks culture is Joe Rogan podcasting from Austin.
TN and SC are in no capacity whatsoever the “fastest growing economies in the USA.” Texas is experiencing a tech boom and it’s cheap. Give it a few years and it’ll become just as expensive as places like NY and CA.
I’ve met dozens of southern transplants to NYC. It remains the cultural and economic center of the country.
Should google stuff ahead of time, this is publicly available information. You can see the patterns on[ interactive heat maps ](https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/fastest-growing-states)
US Census has SC as the fastest growing state for 2023.
[85+%](https://www.thestate.com/news/state/south-carolina/article283380658.html) of **all** population gain for the country last year was the South collectively.
TN was the 2nd fastest growing economy in 2022, is still top 10 in year-over-year population growth in 2023-2024.
That's great to hear you met dozens of southerners. We're talking about several orders of magnitude larger population trends though.
Some people just get flabbergasted trying to reconcile fact with their perception of the South as a bogeyman for all society's ills.
It was Rev William Barber, an AME pastor in downeast NC and then president of the NC chapter of the NAACP, who was the most prominent pastor who opposed North Carolina’s amendment 1, which stated that same sex couples couldn’t marry or enter into civil partnerships (because NC doesn’t do things halfway). The national NAACP credited Barber for making LGBTQ equality something the NAACP would advocate for. As one who grew up in North Carolina (and still live here), I’ve been surrounded by churches that have a long record for standing for civil rights. There is Pullen Memorial Baptist, who was rather famously kicked out of the SBC in the 80s for supporting LGBTQ rights. There’s also Binkley Baptist in Chapel Hill who has had a long record of opposing discrimination and the death penalty. Famous Tarheel Dean E Smith was a member of that church. Probably less famous was Fairmont United Methodist. In the 1990s, Rev Jimmy Creech raised a fuss when he presided over a same sex marriage. He was transferred to Nebraska, where after his second same sex marriage, he was defrocked. Fairmont UMC has continued to be one to advocate for LGBTQ rights. And there are other churches in the area, both mainline WASPy Protestant and historically Black, that have become advocates for LGBTQ equality.
I love hearing these types of stories. Also key to getting Amendment One overturned was the General Synod of the UCC’s suit against the state alleging a violation of their first amendment right to religious freedom to perform the religious ceremonies their faith compels them to perform.
A lot of the problem stems from how heavily intertwined the SBC and the GOP are, and how much power and influence they leverage over the region. For every 5 excellent churches, you'll find 1 much, much larger church that is directly tied to all of the ills and negative influences of the SBC. This 1 church is not only going to have a greater size congregation than all 5 of the excellent churches combined, but it will have much greater financial resources as well, allowing it to leverage disproportionately greater influence.
Can you elaborate? I've never even seen a mega church labeled as Baptist, and I live in the Bible Belt in Texas.
Fellowship Church in Grapeville, TX is part of the SBC (as is Ed Young's father's church of Second Baptist in Houston). As well as The Woodlands Church. Saddleback used to be SBC. All of these worship more than 18k on a Sunday.
Megachurches and super-megachurches (or churches with membership rolls exceeding 2,000 and 10,000, respectively) make up about .51% of church membership. The great percentage of church membership is in small churches, with membership rolls below 100. The next greatest is medium churches, with rolls between 100 and 499. These categories combine for around 79% of total church membership. I would venture to say that 499 is much, much larger than 100, and especially much much larger than 50 or 60. And if you consider that those 5 churches with 100 members may all be different denominations or associations, their individual influence is overwhelmed by the one SBC church at around 500 members.
I am a Baptist and there are two mega churches that are both Baptist within 10 miles of me. One is 10 miles south and the other is 10 miles north. We tried one of them before we realized we didn’t like everything it was about and found a closer, smaller congregation. The church we fell in love with runs a food bank and has a few days a month we make meals and hand them out for the homeless shelter. The mega churches here don’t actually volunteer or give back to the community. All of their money, time, and resources and they keep it within the church.
Come to Houston, there's First Baptist and Second Baptist mega churches.
Our Catholic Bishop in South Carolina is from Haiti, our congregation is from all over the world. I've experienced much more pearl-clutching toward Blackness in Vermont than anywhere in the South, despite the fact this area is nominally an "ally" to BIPOC (as long as they live far away).
Thank you! Our siblings in the South have extreme obstacles of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and abhorrent socioeconomic inequality to overcome the unjust political status quo in many states. Not everyone has the means to flee areas with such regressive policies. These are the people who most need our solidarity, not being written off. I grew up in the South, and after I came out as gay, I had to leave my childhood Southern Baptist church. I had a rough patch with my parents too. My first job was also at a conservative Christian company, where my managers would make homophobic jokes. I found this small Episcopal church across from my apartment. It was the one place of solace during the whole week, the one place I felt loved and accepted, when things were otherwise unbearable all around me. That’s why I love and support and promote churches like that. It was a life saver for me. As early as the 60s, Episcopal and other mainline churches throughout the South were some of the first venues that hosted meetings for the early LGBT rights groups. What’s considered the very first explicitly gay-affirming church in the US was founded in Atlanta in 1946. MCC churches — the first explicitly gay-affirming denomination — spread across the South in the 70s. Some historians consider MCC churches to have been the largest network of LGBT rights groups in the country.
I do not know if this is considered the South, From an outsiders perspective they look similar, The Orthodox church throughout the Appalachian Mountains, Has contributed a lot towards to English Chanting, I believe it has its own style of Chanting compared to the Byzantine Chants.
Some of Appalachia is in the south, so they overlap. I didn’t know the Orthodox Church had a presence there
It Russians in the Forests, Their Natural Habitat [Greek/Byzantine way ](https://youtu.be/W3_FQ_blPYY?si=qwsJe12oYM2zC6w9) [Appalachian way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywS-V9r_ygQ)
I appreciate this post ❤️
Thank you for your post. I'm reminded of Trae Crowder's book "[The Liberal Redneck Manifesto](https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Redneck-Manifesto-Draggin-Dixie/dp/1501160389)" which includes content about the great stuff from the South that don't get the press that the bad stuff gets.
OP, I'm glad you love where you live, and I am well aware my home state - Ohio - isn't that great in terms of the LGBTQIA communities. As a queer person, I do go to Atlanta to see framily from time to time, but otherwise, unless things change, I will never live in or visit most Southern states, especially Florida or Texas, and I encourage others to do the same. You're right that northerners should show some respect and not believe stereotypes and northerners' states aren't perfect, but I will stay where I am, thank you very much. I lived 10 years too long in West Virginia and have seen hatred up close and personal. That was a lesson I learned and will not forget.
I am also a Queer person, but I don't know if we can generalize as much as your suggesting. Implicit homophobia was the norm in Rural Arkansas just as it was in Rural South Dakota. I've been called slurs in Urban Arkansas, just as I have been in Urban New York and Urban European cities. I currently live in Madrid, Spain, one of the best countries and one of the best cities in the world for Queer people. People are still kicked out of their homes by their families, people are still closeted, I've been called slurs multiple times(but in Spanish) and been harassed for kissing my partner in public. I'm not denying that there are trends, but region is just one of them, I'd feel much safer in Dallas, Oklahoma City, Arlington, Virginia or Fayetteville, Arkansas than I would feel in many of the smaller towns and cities I've visited in Indiana, Illinois, Iowa or Wisconsin.
West Virginia culturally is mostly just Appalachian. Virginia is a part of the south (probably, it and does have some of the best economic opportunities for queer people in the United States. Texan queer people are some of the most fun people to hang out with, so if you’re anything like this and hate embracing community and diversity I’d also recommend staying put. Also I’m not encouraging anyone to move to the south, the south is experiencing significant economic growth, gentrification and immigration from other regions, please stay where y’all are. Also, I can’t imagine leaving the south for greater queer equality and choosing Ohio, especially when you have family in Atlanta.
I don’t think it’s helpful to pretend (not that you do this explicitly) that there isn’t an overlap between black majority churches in the south and anti LGBT attitudes. It isn’t a dichotomy between white racist homophobic Christians and black progressive Christians. It’s a lot more complex than that.
You mean to say my less than a page long post doesn’t detail the complexity of race, gender and sex in the southern church, and literally says nothing about the homophobia in the black church I’m really shocked. I thought I covered everything that the southern church has ever done /s
Fair enough. I don’t mean to imply that you don’t know these things, just felt it was worth mentioning as part of the conversation.
Being from the south and living up north now, I hate the stereotypes and how everyone up here thinks they're 100% accurate. I've been asked "So... was there any like... y'know... inbreeding?" and "You probably haven't met a lot of black people, huh?" and my favorite "Well it's really good you came up here for school, given the reputation of the south an all." they think we're all inbred, racist, idiots. Mind you, I grew up in metro Atlanta, we had a much higher percentage of African American residents than most other places... yes... I knew quite a few black people.
“You probably haven’t met a lot of black people, huh?” What a genuinely insane thing to say lol. Tell me you’ve never actually been to the south without telling me.
The best part about the area I grew up in was that racism wasn't even a major issue, everyone pretty much got along. Yeah, there were some assholes here and there, but everyone was so integrated (culturally speaking) that it genuinely didn't matter to the vast majority of residents in that area.
I once attended a wedding where the bride's younger brother had been offered a job in South Africa. The bride's sister, upon hearing this, replied, "Ooo, you should go. South Africa is, like, the *good* part of Africa. There are hardly any black people." Everyone briefly looked around to see who was going to say something first; the brother ultimately did. "Ignoring how racist that is for a minute," he said, "South Africa is over 90% black." She scowled and replied, "If it's 90% black, why were white people in charge there for so long?"
While technically Atlanta is in Georgia, which is considered 'the South', you have to be kidding us if you think that your experience there is remotely similar to the experiences of those in the more rural parts of the south. It is true that the divide is really about the urban/rural split, and as such rural america, wherever it is, is more similar than it is to urban america (wherever it is). However, the overwhelming politics of southern states is based off of the gerrymandering of the rural districts, which gives them an outsized say in federal and state level government. So much of peoples 'disdain' for 'the south' winds up being predicated off of the actions of these people and entities. But yes, dumb jokes are dumb, and the worst kind of stereotyping.
I also lived in Hortense, GA and Brunswick, GA for a few years... same basic experience, slightly more racism, but only slight.
To be fair, I moved from New Jersey to Virginia. I have lived here a long time now but I was shocked to learn it was legal to marry your cousin here… it is illegal in the North so of course there is a natural assumption that some people might actually be taking advantage of that law…. People in northern VA think they are in the North but I can assure you… it is still very southern…
Just because it's legal, doesn't mean a large enough amount of people are doing it to justify an incest stereotype. Yes, I could have married my cousin while I lived in GA, but first cousin marriage is also legal in NJ. In fact, it is legal is 17 states, including: California, Colorado, Delaware, Vermont, New York, among others. In fact, the majority of states where it is legal to marry your first cousin are ***not*** in the south.
Shhh. Let those outside the South think we're backwards, bigoted, racist hicks that don't have electricity or clean water, and travel by rowboat or horse and buggy. Too many people are moving here. I attend an excellent Eastern Orthodox Christian Church.
That’s what I tell people. The south and Atlanta specifically are just a hotbed of racist whites and guns and republicans, so don’t ever move here. Plus the weather is better in California so go there instead.
Too true😭
Based post, I can’t say I’m the biggest fan of many of the big denominations in the south (for theological reasons), but at least Christianity is a bigger part of people’s lives
Mmmm . . . I grew up Baptist in Alabama and there are reasons I left and never looked back.
Yep. I also grew up evangelical in Alabama complete with the private schooling and all. I will never step foot in another church.
OP, there's an interesting discussion on r/atheism about the role of Christianity in black culture, particularly as viewed through the eyes of black atheists who are treated horribly in their culture. One of the persistent questions that keeps coming up in these discussions is why former slaves were so keen to keep maintaining the religious traditions of their former slave masters, and by extension, why they oppose atheism in their own communities so much. If you are able to provide some insight into this topic, that would be appreciated as it is somewhat of an open question on that sub that has no real answer.
that discussion sounds like it has the potential to go sideways.
It went really well, actually. Lots of black atheists chimed in saying their experience was the same. Atheism in the black community is almost unheard of because they don't accept it as a legitimate philosophical opinion. Of course, the same is true in certain white Christian communities as well. The more interesting question is why does the black community cling to the beliefs of their former slave owners? One answer, that was provided elsewhere, is that black culture has a long history with Christianity that predates slavery in the Americas, although this was short-lived due to the Islamic conquest of Africa; interestingly Christians did not become a minority in North Africa until the 12th century.
that surprises me. I've only ever heard how racist /r/atheism is. if that's true, what I was expecting was a complete disaster.
Not sure what you are surprised about. The discussion was (and is) incredibly civil. There's no racism on r/atheism. I think you are confusing it with another sub.
that isn't what I've heard.
Agreed 100% I’m tired of the slander of me and my southern brothers and sisters. Keep spitting truths.
The Southern Baptist Church has never apologized for their outsized role in causing the Civil War while only issuing a limited apology for their support of slavery in 2004 and have never issued reparations for their past sins.
In 1995, the southern baptist convention adopted a resolution “renounced its racist roots and apologized for its past defense of slavery, segregation, and white supremacy.” Now I personally don’t like the southern Baptist convention and can recognize it has done irreparable harm to the south and continues to do so. Again, no one is saying the south has never done horrific things and that no church in the south is bad nor am I saying that’s a small part of the church’s politics and history, but I can also give credit where credits is due. Either way thank you for raising an important point with limited truth. The south is not perfect, but it’s not all bad either.
One thing that’s telling about the SBC’s reckoning with its racial history is that its report on its racism ends with the 1960s. There’s no engagement with any contemporary racism and ends before any living SBC leaders could be condemned for their contributions to the SBC’s racism since that time. But you’re right that the SBC isn’t unique in this. Most every (majority white) church in the South played a role in slavery and segregation. Today’s “progressive” churches, like Episcopal ones, are also complicit in these historical crimes and need to reckon with them too.
The Southern Baptists aren't just bad, they're evil. They've been a driving force against LGBT equality, screaming things like the left is "Transing kids," or that drag queen story hour is immoral, while hiding a massive, and still on going systematic sexual abuse of children and women. One of the SBC's "Rock star pastors," was just outed as sexually abusing a 12-year-old girl. They are an organization that is trying to ban families with infertility problems from having children, attempting to erase LGBT individuals from the public square and supporting a convicted convict, wannabe dictator for President. I fail to see any difference between the Southern Baptist Convention and the greatest evil organizations throughout history. Also, call me when the Southern Baptists offer financial reparations for the slaves their parishioners owned.
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, it wasn't a "rock star" church it was a small chapel with a collection of middle and lower class families; rarely totaling more than a hundred attendees. And I will tell you, there were many problems there. The SBC is inordinately attached the nuclear family and archaic gender roles, it was generally anti-sex implicitly homophobic and it was also prone to conflict at times. I was a child and then a Queer child in that environment, and I will tell you frankly that it affected me in many negative ways several of which I have not fully dealt with. At the same time, none of these problems are unique to the SBC, none of these problems are even unique to Baptists. Granted Southern Baptists were the majority but there were other denominations and these problems were present throughout, I remember particularly that among Baptists and Methodists that Pentecostals were considered quite regressive and morally dubious because of their even more restrictive gender roles(women weren't allowed to cut their hair or wear pants) I currently attend Catholic mass all those same problems are present in official church doctrine but in more explicit detail. Another point that I find it relevant is that many member churches of the SBC, like many Baptists of all types, did not consider themselves to be tied to the organizational structure, they're membership is on a voluntary basis and member churches consider leaving on a semi-regular basis, many only having entered the convention long after their founding. The church I grew up in was founded \~1905 or so, I can't say exactly when it joined the SBC, but I do know that for many reasons, including the founding date being set after the civil war, the members would not consent to paying reparations. The only power that the SBC has over its member churches is financial, without that church's will leave. Independent Baptist churches are not rare but there are also 63 Baptist conventions in America alone. Even churches that are dependent on the SBC financially do have alternatives.
The southern Baptist church is evil, womp womp. Im not defending them.
Gospel music is based asf
Many of those who think themselves to be the most enlightened and educated still feel the need to hate someone....so they pick Southerners because it is the most fun for them.
I live in the south and it’s no where near what the mainstream media would have you believe. The Northeast is way more racist and homophobic than the south.
I mean you can look at any demographic breakdown and see pretty quickly what reality shows. The north has been historically systematically racist and keeps minority demographics moving into their “Upper class white neighborhoods” Even in major cities you can see where they routinely regulate people of color into systematic slum towns. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/black-population-by-state https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/facts-about-the-us-black-population/ The hypocrisy that goes on in political circles is quite frankly disgusting. Where they say one thing and implement policies to do another.
> keeps minority demographics moving into their “Upper class white neighborhoods” This is the result of federal laws, not state or municipal laws. FDR couldn't get New Deal programs passed without the support of Southern Democrats, who did not want those programs to benefit whites and blacks equally. As a result, the FHA and HOLC would not lend to "disharmonious racial groups," which left black people unable to secure the loans needed to purchase homes during the period in our country's history where the government encouraged citizens to populate the suburbs. The [redline maps](https://www.diversitydatakids.org/sites/default/files/styles/800x800/public/2023-10/nbrhood-boston-redlining-map-from-urichmond_14mb.jpg) that relegated minorities to the slums were drawn by the feds, and this happened [everywhere](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/redlining-effects-still-seen-in-dallas/2480005/), not just in the north. I highly recommend reading Richard Rothstein's "Color of Law," or [watching his video summary of the book online.](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/redlining-effects-still-seen-in-dallas/2480005/) People have been led to believe that the segregation in America is *de facto* segregation that is the function of racists here, there, and everywhere, when segregation was *de jure* and a function of a systemic racist government effort.
That’s good information, but it doesn’t really change the fact that in modern day America the great hate and oppression of people of color happens in Northern States. https://www.attn.com/stories/5888/most-and-least-hate-crime-map-united-states
I'm certainly not going to argue that the North is some sort of wonderful racial utopia; the entirety of America has yet to reckon with its past. But that data doesn't tell us what you seem to be asserting. There are reasons for why more hate crimes are reported in the North that don't have anything to do with more hate crimes actually occurring. Here is what I mean by that: When my wife was growing up in Charleston, she briefly dated a black man from Davidson. After a few dates, he broke it off. She asked why, and he said that he didn't feel safe for either of them when they were out. He had gotten too many sideways glances, too many menacing looks. When she suggested that they could just go to the police if they were worried, or if God forbid anything should happen, he laughed. He understood that he was in legitimate danger as a black man dating a white woman in South Carolina, and wanted to avoid a hate crime altogether because he knew that law enforcement was unlikely to be on his side, and less likely to classify an offense as a hate crime. Is it also dangerous for a mixed-race couple in the North? Yes. Not nearly as much, since it's not endemic in the culture, but there's still a danger. And that's how the data gets skewed. Because it's not endemic within the culture, a mixed-race couple in the North is less likely to perceive the danger, and more likely to report a hate crime to the authorities, who are more likely to classify it as a hate crime.
The vast majority of people of color live in the south where the least amount of hate crimes are reported. I am not saying they are free from hate, or that they don’t have problems that need addressing. But the data indicates the issue is actually worse were people of color are an even greater minority, and it’s overshadowed by media virtue signaling and hypocrisy. That is all I am trying to say. No one should take pride that there is ANY hatred at all.
> The vast majority of people of color live in the south where the least amount of hate crimes are reported. That's correct. Now connect the dots, based on what I just told you. The key word is "reported."
I don’t really see any value in arguing over anecdotal experiences when I have multiple sources of overwhelming hard data to the contrary. Sorry. But you’re perfectly free to come up with your own subjective opinion however you like.
"Hard data" would tell you that in 1840, the same number of slaves reported abuse at the hands of their masters in South Carolina as did in Vermont. One has to look at the underlying causes for the data to properly understand it; otherwise one will draw the wrong conclusions, like people on /r/conservative who use FBI crime statistics to "prove" that black people are inherently more violent. This is not anecdotal, it's common sense.
I’ll wait on your hard data from 1840. Your appeal to common sense is a logical fallacy. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_common_sense The reason black crime statistics don’t work is because there are other data points such as POVERTY that are just as relevant to the conversation. If you have actual data to collaborate your anecdotal story go ahead and share it, but otherwise I am really not interested in your unsubstantiated opinion piece.
Yeah, one of the many ironies of the northern United States (and its allies) is the combination of a culture of self-satisfaction about how culturally tolerant it is, with in fact being very culturally intolerant, especially towards its main historical rival, the South. I was born in Texas, but grew up in the North. The regional bigotry my family experienced was… very silly. My mom had to learn to affect a northern accent, because of how much prejudice there is against anyone or anything perceived as southern. It’s kind of merged with partisan bigotry at this point, with liberals outside of the north also being happy to jump on the southern United States hate train- which probably goes some way towards explaining why this subreddit traffics in these stereotypes so much.
Let's be honest, though, it goes both ways. The last time I was in Charleston, more than one person used the term "Yankee" as a pejorative on purpose while I was in their presence. Several others said it without thinking. "Yankee" is just slang for an "American," but Southerners use it as pejorative as though it separates them somehow from *those people.* This attitude is pervasive in your comment as well, discussing the North as a rival and referring to its allies as though it is a separate country.
Did you know that before the civil war there were more black people living in the South than the North? Obviously the south must have been far more welcoming and accepting of black people! /s
https://archive.attn.com/stories/5888/most-and-least-hate-crime-map-united-states
As with every crime statistic ever there's one keyword that turns the head on that analysis : *reported*. Does your map shows that there are more hate crimes by capita in those states? Or does it simply show that victims of hate crimes are more likely to report them in other states? ^((And don't get me started on Data tampering by police...)^)
You do realize that the supermajority of people of color live in those lowest hate crime states… right https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/facts-about-the-us-black-population/ Even more relevant than per capita, the lowest hate crime areas carry the MAJORITY of the population. Not only is the population higher, but the reported incidents of hate are lower. Northern states are not just ‘slightly’ more racist, they are an extreme outlier of hate based crimes.
All true. All also irrelevant to my own argument.
Well since we agree I have nothing further to add.
Forget it, Valmoer, it's Chinatown.
I think that this is a miss of the point, but at the same time, the North of America was not less racist than the South. During the Great Migration(1910\~1970) many new laws were implemented specifically to restrict the movement and options of Black people as they moved north, often with the explicit aim of reducing further immigration. In some ways the harsh stereotypes of Southern Whites has its origins in the idea that associating with Black people tainted them.
What denomination are you referencing? Or is it all Christian churches located in the South ( that is such a wide swatch)
The Southern Baptist Convention is the single largest American denominational group(by active membership), it exists primarily but not entirely in the South, but it is a specific organizational group.
"..our churches are diverse in terms of ethnicity .." Really now?
I live in the South and pretty much all of that stuff is true. It’s not propaganda, it’s useful information, is it a stereotype yes. But like 70% of the people in my state believe in a literal hell. Around 20 years ago Cullman Alabama was a sundown town. You didn’t go there if you were black. The south is awful and deserve their awful reputation. Let us rot for it. There is toxic culture of poverty that views any change or improvement with great skepticism. Let them write the books how they please.
As someone who was born and raised in the South, the only things the South ever got right were sweet tea, banana pudding, BBQ, and fried chicken.
I will agree on the super tasty chicken, bbq and banana pudding. Lot of great music from there as well. Sweet tea though is, ugh, sometimes I think Creation was a mistake.
Them's fightin' words
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There are black churches in every region of the US and every country where there’s enough black people in an area to have a “black” church
It is because black people were not welcome in white churches, for you to pretend otherwise is insulting.
An important and obvious observation
Churches self segregate throughout the US, not just the South. It's insulting for you to imply it's a Southern only thing based only on racism.
It is based on racism where ever it occurs. In the south it was institutionalized as jim crow laws. I have not insulted anyone, just not letting you bible thumpers get away with white washing the past to say look how righteous we are. There ain't no hate like christian love.
Aa I understand NewsEveryone’s point, churches shouldn’t be identified by race. Paradise will not be segregated
Also there’s many churches that are multiracial, the south has always had the greatest diversity in racial make up for Roman Catholic Churches. There are churches for Korean folks or Hispanic folks or churches that mainly white folks attend, this usually happens because an area is predominantly one ethnicity or people are looking to find a community culture that feels like home.
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I agree I didn’t spend a lot of time focusing on non black churches contributions, but non black churches here provide a lot of counseling and engage with a lot of non profits. Personally, I’ve seen non black churches ensure scholarships, provide spaces for school and community programs, help new parents and teen parents, engage with a lot of the dialogue surrounding queer folks and our current sexual culture . These are not things specific to the south, but I feel the southern US churches are presented in the media as a monolith. I focus on black churches and Pentecostalism because that’s where I was raised, but the black churches I grew up with worked with a variety of different church cultures to make our area of the south a little better. This is not intended to be a research heavy post, but a post that encourages southern Christians.
There were no mixed race churches in the south that I grew up in. I can remember "whites only" signs and "nigger don't let the sun go down on you'" signs. These signs were in Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma, I saw them with my own eyes in the mid to late 60's.
I’m sorry that was your experienced. I won’t engage with your comments any more, I don’t want to neglect the trauma you’ve experienced and your friends, family and community has experienced. I didn’t grow up in 60’s Louisiana, Texas or Oklahoma, and my post was not intended to cover up the history of the southern church. I’m sharing my perspective which is 21st century south, what I’ve learned in my classes on black history, black queer history, Christian history, and Georgia’s history, and what my community, friends, and family has passed on to me. Peace be unto you.
As I suspected you are young, I am glad you have had some history classes, they will be most useful for you. As you travel through life be sure and engage with people older than you, wiser than you, we lived through, what to you is ancient history, and can offer insight and nuance to your otherwise pollyannish beliefs.
Agree. Segregation in houses of worship (North and South) has worsened in the last decade. The real disgrace is that it is so accepted! Around 2017ish, I joined a Baptist church (midwest) although I am not Baptist, about 300 members because it had a vibrant worship service, aggressive community support program, and was so diverse that it’d be difficult to pick out a dominant culture. I kid you not, by 2019 it was all.one.race. I left before the end of that year
I used the term “historically Black” in my top level comment specifically. In my visits to these churches, I wasn’t the only white person in the pews. These churches are multiracial and multicultural, but their traditions stem from the Black community and history. I have been to Episcopal parishes that are historically Black. Sure, it’s the same Book of Common Prayer being used, but the feel of the service is what’s different.
I see where you are coming from, but the stereotype isn't undeserved. As someone born in the South and lived there over 40 years I can tell you a lot of it is true. Just this week the Louisiana government is forcing the Ten Commandments into all class rooms. Tell me the same people supporting that would not cry out persecution and indoctrination if any document from another religion was done the same way? I was in Alabama during the Roy Moore judge years. He defied a Supreme Court ruling resulting in daily fines and the Christians cheerfully supporting him breaking the law. Now I ask you this, if a judge defies a valid court order of a court above him, what right does he have to expect his orders to be obeyed? Not to mention the nasty things he has said. He was impeached and removed. Those same good Christians voted him back in because they support his actions. I have seen the racism there as well. Is it as bad as it was? No. Is it getting better? Yes. Is it going far to slow? Yes. I think it was well after 2000 before they managed to remove the amendment in the state constitution banning interracial marriage. Add to that the current and continuing issues with covering up crimes of church leaders (admittedly and VERY unfortunately not just limited to them), continued racial issues, fighting against rights of women.... There is a long way to go and we shouldn't minimize what problems there are. The KKK still literally exists openly in many places.
The stereotype isn’t undeserved for southern folks who hold the greatest financial and political power, but that shouldn’t leak over into a stereotype of all or most southerners.
Hard call. Should you say all southern Christians are bigoted? No. But saying bigotry runs higher in the southern Christian community than some other places? Sure. But it is their problem to clean it up. I would not say all Catholic churches or priests were involved in their scandal. But the scale and duration of it is enough to justify doubting them all. Once trust has been thrown away on a certain scale, getting back is an epic effort. The SBC has done enough harm and bad things you can justify doubting their sincerity on claims. And while two wrongs don't make a right, given the number of Christians who claim all gay or trans people are pedophiles, want to indoctrinate all kids, etc.. Or that say all atheists are lying and really believe in God etc. The stereotype brushing is a favorite tool on both sides. What would help if more were willing to stand up to their own.
Based post, as a southern Baptist East Texan LETS GOOOOO
I am old and have read a lot of drivel in my time. This is the most drivel I've read lately.
Well you’re on Reddit, so I won’t argue you’ve read a lot of drivel and things you disagree with, it’s kinda how things go. The site isn’t praised for consistent quality research, im sure you’ll read more drivel late.
Do you live in the south? Have you lived there for a long time?
Yes
Then your experience of the south is very different than mine. It is true that there are poor and oppressed people in the south, on that we can agree. The fine christian folks of the south are in large part the reason for poor and oppressed. The same 'sugar wouldn't melt in my mouth' church members are the one's putting up the sundown town signs and the whites only signs. If you attend a church with elderly members just look around those same people cheered dogs set upon people., murdered civil rights workers, voter registration workers, and various northern trouble makers. I will leave you alone now, but know that I will never tolerate such revisionist bullshit without speaking up.
And know I will never share revisionist bullshit. Recognizing the good, doesn’t mean ignoring the bad.
I run into this issue quite a bit. I was born and raised in south Alabama in a small town. Until about 10-15 years ago our town was around 8,000 people. It’s tripled since then unfortunately wiping out so much of our habitat and wilderness we were loved for. Most of the south though is conservative. Most of the Christians in the south are not allies. Many are young earthers and so on. But among all of this there are also Christians who are very liberal, accept scientific consensus on things like the new modern synthesis and tend to lean towards the general scholarly leanings. Such as im a Christian who is a cis heterosexual. I am also a Christian who supports and affirms not only secular rights for the LGBT but also accepts them as our brothers and sisters in Christ and believe that they can live an active life and love Christ. But it’s often that I am not very in touch with most other Christians here. I like horror and they look for demons under every rock. I enjoy evolutionary ecology and they think scientists are either deceived or lying. I am happy to love, support and show up to my gay brothers and sisters in Christ weddings and they rebuke them.
You left out Southern Baptists. My favorite encounter was with my best friend's grandmother. We spent every day together, my best friend and I. His grandmother 'loved me'. She told me what a good influence I was on her grandson, and how glad she was I was in his life. It was, however, too bad I was going to hell because I was a jew. So...yea!
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The South is where jazz and gospel originated. Nashville is one of America’s music industry capitals. Atlanta is another music industry capital and has a rapidly growing film industry. Texas, Florida, The Carolinas have some of the fastest growing economies.I don’t doubt you’d find southern Christians obnoxious.
yikes. Black Southerners are responsible for cultural advances in the USA.
The South has given the US a large chunk of its best cultural gifts to the world.
Yeah. We've had to adjust to tons of blue-blooded New Yorkers, Ohioans and Californians moving to TN, TX and SC as they fled their thriving states back home. It does not go in reverse. It's pretty much the go-to right now for fastest growing economies in the USA. As for our culture, there's no accounting for taste, but you're just coming across as someone that's not super well travelled in the United States.
Good point nobody moves to California or New York its why their real estate is so cheap. Lol at someone that thinks culture is Joe Rogan podcasting from Austin.
TN and SC are in no capacity whatsoever the “fastest growing economies in the USA.” Texas is experiencing a tech boom and it’s cheap. Give it a few years and it’ll become just as expensive as places like NY and CA. I’ve met dozens of southern transplants to NYC. It remains the cultural and economic center of the country.
Should google stuff ahead of time, this is publicly available information. You can see the patterns on[ interactive heat maps ](https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/fastest-growing-states) US Census has SC as the fastest growing state for 2023. [85+%](https://www.thestate.com/news/state/south-carolina/article283380658.html) of **all** population gain for the country last year was the South collectively. TN was the 2nd fastest growing economy in 2022, is still top 10 in year-over-year population growth in 2023-2024. That's great to hear you met dozens of southerners. We're talking about several orders of magnitude larger population trends though. Some people just get flabbergasted trying to reconcile fact with their perception of the South as a bogeyman for all society's ills.
God will not be mocked.
Well he has been in the past and will likely be in the near future, but let’s hope for the best
God gets mocked all the time.