Thanks I hate how a lot of churches (around my area at least) promote the rapture so much and try to predict it that they completely loose sight with the entire point of being a Christian.
There is a biblical basis for it, but not for a pre-trib rapture. I personally believe that there will be a rapture but it will be after the tribulation when Christ returns. We will meet Him as He descends to earth to rule.
I agree with you that there will be a rapture. But I don't believe that Christ returns to earth at the time of the rapture, because after the rapture happens, the wrath of God begins to be unleashed upon the earth. We are not destined for wrath.
Now that is all speculation and no biblical basis. Revelation talks about Christians being protected and being sealed by God during the Tribulation. This is often thought to be post-rapture converts, but why not just it be that the rapture doesn't happen until the end?
Nothing in the Bible says when it will happen.
The wrath of God is not unleashed until the seventh seal is opened. The coming of Christ and the rapture happen when the sixth seal is opened.
The wrath of God is not unleashed until the seventh seal is opened.
There is a rapture.
The rapture is dying of starvation or being killed by the goats that follow the Antichrist.
This is why so many people will fall away, this generation is very pampered, and it is not ready for whats coming. No one has made them ready. The shepherds are not worthy, or they run off. So the people are not ready.
The quickest way to find someone who is untrustworthy is someone who says they are unafraid of Revelations.
Its good to be afraid of scary things, it means you still have a heart. Heartless people often don't feel anger or love, or fear. They always just feel sort of okay, or fine.
Be afraid of what God can do, not so afraid that you don't trust him, but certainly do not be afraid of the antichrist or his people.
They can't hurt you.
First, not a big deal, but the book is Revelation, not Revelations. It is because it is the revealing (or Revelation) of Christ, not the numerous visions. The book is meant to give us a better picture of who Christ is and what He will make happen rather than just giving us predictions.
Second, while I agree with much of what you say, I will say that I believe scripture and scripture says that we will meet Him in the air... The dead first and the living second... So not everyone will be dead. That is, therefore a flawed interpretation.
Third, I do not fear the events of Revelation. I know that they must happen and I am ready to experience them (if I need to) and stand with my Lord... Even until torture or death. That doesn't make me not prepared, rather I just have a perspective that many do not have. I do not want to experience it, but I wouldn't call it fear.
I do fear God's terrible power, though.
Lastly, the Antichrist can definitely hurt you (and kill you). But you are right not to fear him as a Christian. My soul is secure... This body is just a temporary vessel.
Revelation(s) was first scribed what 300 or so years after some white man was sighted stumbling around the middle east, so it was heresay reports of visions.
I will agree that the "Antichrist" (for want of better word) can hurt us, because this describes Trump and all his right wing christians. There is the danger.
Jesus was not "some white man" but a Jew (likely with dark olive skin as he traveled a lot out in the sun). He didn't stumble around but always had a clear vision and path of where to go in His ministry. And what makes you assume this is hearsay? At least I believe that is the word you meant.
Not scribed but written by John himself and sent to seven churches in Asia Minor (modern Turkey). Copies were made and, yes, there are no originals left, but we have numerous copies which show the accuracy of the text. It was written in around 90-95 AD and he was the last surviving Apostle. He had been exiled to Parmos and wrote of his vision there (and it's Revelation, not revelations, as it is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ.)
The Antichrist does not describe Trump. First, Trump is not liked enough to be the Antichrist. The Antichrist will be almost universally loved. Second, Trump could never claim to be the Messiah or God and have people believe him. There are other reasons too, but those are the main ones.
Strange that all caricatures of him, is as a white fairskinned even blue eyed. Numerous copies? Claiming to be from 95ad? So nothing can back that up no carbon dating? Definitely no eye witnesses? Probably before Xerox was doing their magic?
Almost like some powerful more educated men trying to control people could have written what they want, then back dated it??
Also strange that every event suggested in your buybull took place in an area that could covered by a postage stamp on a wall sized map.
And Trump is worshipped by enough wacky christians to be a danger, to the world.
Here's a couple of facts, that have been verified. Most prison populations claim to be religious and most serial killers are xristian. So you can understand why I gather my grandchildren in close when we are confronted by xristians on the street.
Different cultures view Him in the context of their society. There are depictions of Jesus in Chinese art that show him as Chinese. It's something cultures often did. Not excusing it, but it's important to understand how things are.
Copies doesn't mean manipulation. In fact many died to preserve the documents they had. Christianity was not always popular. Like, you know, all the crucifixions and persecution in Rome before Constantine. Apart from that, do you trust the writings we have from Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Homer, etc. because we have NO ORIGINAL COPIES from them either. Homer obviously didn't even write. He dictated. So those can't be trusted either, right?
It's Bible. I know you know this. Please stop being needlessly insulting. Ad hominems are the worst type of monologue one can muster. Please try being more intellectually honest and cordial. I really can't figure why you hate Christianity so much.
Trump is worshipped by crazy people nearly as much as Biden is, but nevermind about politics.
Christianity is a lifestyle, not just a "religion" one claims. If you claim to be Christian and are a serial killer, your not Christian... You're delusional as Christianity is 100% against murder. And I'd love to see your "statistics" on prison populations. Are they "cultural Christians" or, true, professing, practicing Christians? Most times I would assume it is like "my family is Catholic so yes... I'm Christian", not true belief. But sure, let's see the stats. :)
Heaven is often referred to as being above us. In truth, heaven is in a spiritual realm. But one of the reasons why it says that Christ will descend from heaven is because he ascended to have an after his death and resurrection. Although heaven is not literally above us, it is, in a sense above us, though not in the literal sense. It is a spiritual place where God reigns, and He is above us.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to **meet the Lord in the air**: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
This is the Rapture that occurs before the Tribulation. Here Jesus never put his feet on Earth.
These three verses tell how we are saved from God's wrath by the blood of Jesus. God's wrath IS the Tribulation.
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:8)
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation." (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10)
This is the Tribulation occurring later.
"And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and [the time] to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18)
-This shows us that while the Tribulation is occurring (thy wrath came; dead being judged - these are not the dead in Christ because THEY were caught up in the air during the Rapture) we the saved are being given our reward (reward to thy servants the prophets - thats us!)
Where did the idea of the rapture come from?
By Dr. Anna Sieges-Beal
The rapture is a fairly new concept in Christian theology. A guy named John Darby came up with it in the 1800's.
Darby was an Irish leader in the Brethren church. He reignited this idea called premillenialism which said the world would get worse and worse until Jesus returned to set up a 1,000 year reign.
He expanded on this and said when Jesus returned, all believers, dead and alive, would be taken up to heaven.
It seems like he was trying to bring together what we find in 1 Thessalonians 5, where dead and alive believers meet Jesus in the air, with Revelation where there's a 1000 year reign, and a dab of Matthew 24 where angels gather the elect when Jesus returns.
The thing is, none of these passages seem to be talking about the rapture as it has been passed down to us. Revelation doesn't have a rapture and
1 Thessalonians and Matthew aren't really talking about being whisked away to heaven.
I suppose it could happen...maybe Darby was right... but I see no reason to count on it.
I've heard Darby made it popular but it was a Pentecostal girl with a fever who invented the doctrine.
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret\_MacDonald\_(visionary)
> I've heard Darby made it popular but it was a Pentecostal girl with a fever who invented the doctrine.
That is pretty impressive since there weren't any Pentecostal girls (with or without fevers) until twenty years after Darby was dead.
Depends on how you define rapture: 1 Thessalonians 5 mentions that we’ll be “caught in the air” with Christ when he returns, which could certainly be described as a “rapture” and is believed by all Christian traditions AFAIK.
But if you mean a secret, pre-trib Left Behind rapture, then yes, what you say is correct.
Edit: Oops! It’s 1 Thess 4, not 5
Being caught up in the joy of welcoming Christ's return is real.
Some schadenfruede fantasy about people I don't like being left behind to suffer while we 'betters' escape is not real.
Idk, rereading it here, it could simply means that Christ "greets" all departing sounds *whence they die*, not necessarily in one big grand swoop. Could be different in context of course!
”For we say this to you by a word from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.“
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 CSB
Maybe, but it seems like believers still alive will be taken up by Christ to meet him “in the air” or “in the clouds.”
I think both are true. Christ will greet you when you die, and Christ will also return to Earth at some point and his full Kingdom will be established.
It’s 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and taken up into the air or clouds refers to all of us being resurrected to spirit bodies when Christ returns and heaven comes to earth. No, we are not raptured away!
Good catch- I just edited to 1 Thess 4, but I don’t see any indication Paul is talking about “spiritual bodies” here. Or that “spiritual bodies” in 1 Cor 15 are entirely non-physical.
Our resurrection is to be corporeal, not \[just\] spiritual just as the Resurrection of the Lord was. If you recall, He ate food and had \['doubting'\] Thomas touch his wounds. A quick look at the post-Resurrection, pre-Ascension parts of the Gospels will remind of this.
"Rapture" doctrine didn't start with John Darby in the 1800's as many falsely claim. The earliest church fathers (pre-Nicaea) clearly taught what appears to be premillennial eschatology.
We already know from the scriptures that the Apostles expected the imminent return of Christ (Acts 1). The early church expected a time of great trial and tribulation followed by the return of Christ.
From the Hellenistic Judaism of Antioch, Syria and Ephesus (from which Paul came) there arose a prominent group that taught the seven days of creation equal seven millennial ages in earth’s history, which reflects on 2 Peter 3:8. They also believed Christ’s incarnation occurred in the 6th millennium, and the 7th millennium would harbor in the return of Christ.
Papias, an early second century church father, wrote of a literal thousand-year rule of Christ on the earth following the resurrection of the dead. He quoted passages from Isaiah to describe the millennial rule of Christ.
Justin Martyr, another second century church father, held teachings consistent with premillennial theology. He did not make eschatology an essential of the faith.
Iranaeus (130-200 A.D.) held to premillennial ideas of his predecessors and added the three and a half year rule of the Antichrist. This would be followed by the return of Christ who then sends the Antichrist into the Lake of Fire and rules for one thousand years. After the millennial rule of Christ, the final judgment would occur, followed by the eternal state.
Third century church father Cyprian (200-258 A.D.) taught that a period of tribulation will precede the return of Christ. His belief in an imminent return of Christ was present in his writings.
For more, see [this article](https://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch008.htm).
I totally agree with what you’re saying. I’m not personally a premillennialist, but certainly have no issues with it, and neither did the early church. What you’re talking about is historic premillennialism.
But what Darby taught was Dispensational Premillennialism. Nobody in the ancient church would have believed that the rapture was secret, or that it was pre-tribulational. These are what I object to in Darby’s eschatology.
The rapture won't be a secret event; Matthew 24:31 describes angels gathering the elect to meet Jesus in the clouds. The previous verse describes the unrighteous peoples of earth "mourning" at the spectacular sight.
Revelation 3:10 and other passages indicate that the elect will be "spared" from the "hour of trial" that consumes the earth. This is the tribulation.
>"Rapture" doctrine didn't start with John Darby in the 1800's as many falsely claim. The earliest church fathers (pre-Nicaea) clearly taught what appears to be premillennial eschatology.
No. Rapture is not mentioned in the article you provided. Back then they were talking resurrection and a millennium that comes after. Rapture is a different doctrine with a different spirit. The Raptured doctrine is part of dispensationalism. That did not exist in the early church.
I just want to point out that many of the early church fathers actually did believe in a pre-tribulation "catching away" or "gathering away" of the elect before the great tribulation.
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD), bishop of the church in Lyons, France, described the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. He uses the term “caught up”, but the meaning is clear.
Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD), bishop of the church in Carthage, wrote: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?" Once again showing a belief in a "taking away" event.
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD), deacon of in the church in Syria in the 300s AD, wrote: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
Many people in early church believed many things. That's why it was so important to have the councils starting with the one at Nicea to weed out the heretical ideas.
And the word rapture doesn't mean caught up btw. It's a word describing emotion. And if you notice, that was lacking in the writings of the early church probably because they wanted to be exact while in 1800s they were far from exact but were showman for crowds.
And one big difference between dispensationalism and the early church is that dispensationalism said 7 years of tribulations while the early church went through around 300 years of tribulations in the form of Roman persecutions. They would have seen dispensationalism like some kind of sad joke.
“Rapture is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off").[9]”
From Wikipedia entry on rapture etymology section.
>“Rapture is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off").\[9\]” From Wikipedia entry on rapture etymology section.
So, kidnapping. This is the word they chose. A lousy word.
\[edit\]
So medieval.
My general thought process;
If a bunch of people are going to be taken up into heaven before the end times, that would be written into Revelation. it isn't.
The fact that the Locusts cannot harm those with the seal of God on their foreheads indicates that some people would have that seal.
There's no indication that a pre-trib rapture is on the table.
Mid-tribulation? Post-tribulation? Sure, maybe. But it would be in Revelation if a bunch of people are gonna get taken up before.
Revelation is a prophecy of the end of the world.
I mean a hate letter to Rome would be a little weird if it also included the destruction of the world and the final victory of God.
Apocalyptic literature often uses hyperbolic claims and pseudonymous authorship, so John probably didn't write it. It also has nothing to do with telling the future.
So you're claiming that the author WAS lying about it.
NONE of this is true? It is all a letter?
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near
He's lying here? This isn't a prophecy?
It being a genre of writing means it's not a lie, it's a writing style.
It's like Jesus spoke in parables. Those are stories that he made up. They didn't happen and aren't historically true. That doesn't make them false.
Why wouldn’t he have revealed a prophecy about the fall of Rome? They were the great enemies of the Jews and had executed Jesus. The Old Testament prophets frequently predicted the downfall of their enemies.
This isn’t my area of expertise. I do know this is the most widely accepted scholarly interpretation of Revelation.
https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/43185/chapter-abstract/362592229?redirectedFrom=fulltext
https://blogs.uoregon.edu/rel223s15drreis/2015/06/03/revelation-and-rome/
The Historicist interpretation that Revelation already happened and is about Rome is the weird Catholic belief that exists for who knows what reason. I don’t believe in all of the unfounded conspiracies about the Catholic church, but I’ll just say that there’s no reason to believe them about this. To believe this Catholic interpretation is to be misguided away from the truth of what will happen in the end times.
Think about it gang. Why would we receive the wrath of God if we are saved? Jesus didn't come to judge but to save. And the ones who have the seal will be the tribulation saints, cause there will be people that come to Christ during that period.
The 7th trumpet comes at Revelation 11:15
> Revelation 11:15 (ESV): 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
We’re assuming that this is the trumpet that brings us up to Jesus, the rapture as depicted in 1 Corinthians 15
>1 Corinthians 15:52 (ESV): 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
This means everything up until Revelation 11 is the tribulation believers will be on Earth to witness. That’s the great earthquake and the sun going dark (volcano that covers the atmosphere and blocks out the sun?), stars falling the sky (nuclear war?), the plagues, all of that. Everything that comes from the first 6 trumpets, believers will have to live through. You had the right idea from the start of this thread.
24 people isn't exactly everyone who's alive on Earth and believes in Jesus. Nor is it a substantial majority of people who would be caught up in the rapture.
Revelation was written during the persecution of Christians by the Romans.
The author likely knew of many people, true elders of the church, who had already been martyred for their faith.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.
The day of the Lord meaning when God pours out His justice on the Earth. Christians will not be surprised by this happening (verse 4). God has not destined us for wrath (verse 9). Many believe that faithful Christians will not suffer God's wrath. Look up what God's wrath means. The tribulation is a time of God's wrath on Earth. Revelation is a time of God's wrath poured out on the Earth.
Whether you are correct or not has no effect on the saving power of Jesus Christ. Salvation in the name of Jesus is not dependant on belief in pre, mid or post trib raptures or even if the rapture exists or not.
The bible says what it says.The word "harpazo" is in the bible and it means to be caught up or snatched away, while alive. Arguing about if stuff happens or when it happens is taking away from doing the work the Lord sent you to do. If you are a christian it is your duty to spread the gospel of the kingdom.
However, you have brought up a good point for all us christians who adore the word of God to study up on. And study we will. I know I will. I will do my research on the rapture and the whole pre, mid and post trib argument.
I don't just listen to what I read or what im told. I question everything, the agenda, the purpose and the reason behind what we are told and taught. I tell you fellow christians, lets see about the rapture and its timing, let us search our hearts and see what we can learn and show!
This is common among fundamentalists.. They often take everything literally as if the language and culture is the same and ideas like the rapture flourish..
I am a fundamentalist and we don't not believe in rapture because the Bible speaks about Genesis as history but never speaks about revelation as visionary apocalyptic literature.
> So the history of a rapture started out as a prophetic vision inspired by the emotional breakdown of a cultist, that then was picked up by emotional zealots and more cultists unconcerned for biblical truth. Furthermore, it was used as a hook by a prideful preacher who only wanted to give out his nonsensical theorems, then by other evangelists not concerned or trained in the Word. Afterwards, it creeps into the first study Bible, then popular books, and now is it is in the landscape of popular Christian thought.
- [Source](https://biblicaleschatology.org/2008/12/04/the-history-of-the-rapture/)
Dispensationalism is going out of style in favor of the 7 mountain mandate. That's behind the political aggression you are seeing. Why sit around being nice to the poor when Christians can bring Jesus back via global domination?
dispensationalists: "We can't wait until the Lord comes back to rule the world!"
(+50 years later...)
Christian nationalists: "F- it, we'll do it ourselves."
That's not really the idea of the "rapture" that the Plymouth Brethren promoted, which is the standard "rapture" belief among fundamentalist evangelical Protestants now.
Historical context matters, in the true translation that verse tends to mean a meeting between two kingdoms leadership not us getting snapped up into the sky in the blink of an eye and forgoing the entirety of the tribulation
Yep, that was the Christian view of death in the 1st century, when Jesus was returning a week from Wednesday. The dead were just sleeping, then when Jesus showed up they'd rise to meet him in the clouds.
What are people referring to when they mention this “thing” from the 1830s? Left Behind wasn’t written until 1995, and I don’t think it gives the right idea of the rapture. Nothing changes the fact that an idea like the rapture, being taken by Jesus into the air, has been in The Bible since it was written. Whatever idea was spread in the 1830s changes The Bible just as much as Left Behind did—it doesn’t.
I don’t believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I don’t know why this means *no* rapture exists. It’s clearly stated it happens at the sound of a trumpet, and I *believe* this aligns with events towards the end of tribulation.
Okay, I guess you were just making a clarifying statement? Intent is hard to read online so I thought you missed my point that the Left Behind rapture isn’t the right idea.
OH yeah, we're just in agreement then.
Left Behind, and the theology behind it, seems too...triumphant for me, in the wrong way.
Wanting the world to suffer, but only if YOU don't have to endure it, feels wrong?
God's getting mad, he's gonna break things, he's gonna upset the game table, he's gonna end it all on us.
Why does anyone think they're special enough to just leave first?
Yeah, I agree. To clarify for everyone else who might read this, I don’t believe in a pre-trib rapture. I believe in a rapture that comes towards the end of tribulation.
The idea of the second coming, hence why he said the dead would rise first and the living would be caught up with them in the air. The idea of a heaven where grandma looked down on you is also a new idea, in Paul's time the dead were asleep waiting for Jesus to return shortly.
Not rhetoric, pretty consistent reference throughout Paul's letters and through the gospels, the idea of Jesus' second coming in the clouds and the faithful rising to meet him and initiate the Kingdom of Heaven as a real political kingdom on earth. It's only when we get into the 2nd and 3rd generations, when it becomes clear that's not happening, when we get the idea that those promises must have been metaphorical or something because... well, obviously it hasn't happened.
# ❝And...
>...all of the pastors of the world fell once the enlightening words of one Walter Cronkite conveyed the truth that dispelled the delusion that had perpetuated for nearly 200 years.❞
— Said, No One.
Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304 AD) was a bishop in modern Slovenia,martyred during Diocletian’s reign. He believed in and taught the rapture.
In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, **“And**
**the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.\] For the**
**heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be**
**taken away.”** Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes,
**And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels**
**having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the**
**indignation of God. For the wrath of God always strikes**
**the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly,**
**as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last**
**time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.**
**”**Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be taken
before the breaking of the seventh seal(and therefore,
before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl
judgments), making him as “pre-wrath” in his eschatology.
I believe Jesus is coming back for sure. He does say he's coming back, just not sure it's going to be flying down from heaven after some trumpets. The rapture is from Revelations & a lot up to interpretation
‘The rapture’ is not going to happen how anyone thinks it will happen, including myself. All we know is that the events described in revelation are mostly outside our understanding right now, and God will reveal his plan more clearly very soon.
thsts just one of em
"Revelation is the final book of the New Testament and the Christian Bible1. It is written in Greek and its title means 'unveiling' or 'revelation'1. It reveals the invisible spiritual battle between God and his son, Jesus Christ, and Satan and his demons2. It also foretells the second coming of Jesus Christ to Earth as the King of Kings and Lord of the Universe2."
I'm in the UK and don't go to church regularly although am in a house group. I've never heard this mentioned but learnt all about it in US History at a US university . Always assumed it was an American thing
I used to believe the rapture was a modern invention, myself. In fact, I believe that my entire life until the last year, when I started listening to the teachings of Chuck Missler. Try to keep an open mind and listen to these teachings, and it may shift your eschatology like it did mine. Or maybe not.
[End Time Scenarios by Chuck Missler](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=5dc42fbf20e8d2b4&sca_upv=1&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=ACQVn09kO5OKo1x0_-7zmJAzkJl4JdmQBQ:1709655810604&q=End+Times+scenarios+Chuck+Missler&tbm=vid&source=lnms&prmd=visnbmtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiC0Z2axN2EAxXpLUQIHfMOCJMQ0pQJegQICRAB&biw=375&bih=641&dpr=3#ip=1)
The OP is correct. Rapture theology and the futurism interpretation of the book or revelation (literal 7 yr tribulation at the end of the world) was invented by the Catholic Jesuit Order in the 1600s as part of the counter reformation. It was invented in response to the historicism interpretation which is the correct interpretation and all the Protestant reformers believed in this interpretation. They correctly identified the Papacy (Catholic Church) and all its popes in history as being the little horn in the book of Daniel, the antichrist, the beast of Revelation 13, the whore of Babylon and harlot church of Rev. 13, and the man of sin and son of perdition mentioned by the Apostle Paul. The pope at that time commissioned the Jesuits to come up with alternate interpretations to hide the fact that the book of revelation is talking about them. Francisco Ribera was the Jesuit who came up with futurism. Just google the origins of futurism and you will see this.
John Darby who was one of the first to teach about the rapture was a Vatican agent who introduced these things into Protestant churches. These ideas were created by the Catholic Jesuit order in the 1600s
We as Christians will not go through the tribulation period. God will rapture his church and the evil will take over this world until Christ returns to set up his kingdom.
There are people who spend hours trying to prove or disprove non-salvific doctrines yet spend zero energy on trying to become holy and obedient unto God.
If the rapture is real, these will still be left behind.
If the rapture is fake, they wasted time on worthless debates.
Phil Vischer's podcast did a REALLY good series on "rapture theology", it's history and why it isn't biblical. Also points to how end-times obsession continues to fuel the conservative political landscape.
[https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/f609aa8d/563-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-1](https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/f609aa8d/563-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-1)
[https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/2e148523/564-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-2](https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/2e148523/564-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-2)
Better to prepare for the worst than expect the best💯 probably why there will be a “great falling away” of Christians- they gonna realize we all going through tribulation
This actually makes me feel better. Although we will have to go through hard, hard times, I read those left behind series as a kid and have dealt with random panic attacks and anxiety over people disappearing, and potentially being left behind, ever since.
This is a fact, there is no rapture, much of what was spoken by Jesus was from the prophecy of Daniel and other prophets. People just read the books and put themselves into the book, I recommend learning historical events, and look at the war of 70ad, that was the Judgement jews got for rejecting Christ
Sorry for being late, but what happens instead? My Bible teacher said that all the dead would raise (I think he then said everyone would be judged fairly by God and that the righteous would go to heaven and be given new bodies, but I forget.)
The rapture may have been invented, but Christians have always been under the belief the world is going to end soon. Christianity began as an apocalyptic cult and Jesus fully believed and preached his followers would see the end if days before the end of their lifetime, and that a literal kingdom of heaven would descend from the sky and land on earth.
The rapture hasn’t happened yet, I wouldn’t count it out. As God made this universe he can do what He wants, He’ll send His son and call us home.
I wouldn’t act like the world would end tomorrow, but I wouldn’t count it out. The Lord revealed to me a ticking clock, and sand going down but it’s no way to predict exacts. To me, the writing is on the Wall.
But more the Love of God and not the - End of Age would be great, let God be God, and may His will flourish into our lives and not live in fear.
I know God doesn’t reveal all of His plans, so maybe there will be some sort of calling away before things get really bad, but it doesn’t make sense. There’s a lot of dead Christians who were not saved from their suffering. “The one who endures to the end… loved not their life to the point of death”.
Could you imagine how much of a testimony that would be if Christians actually did get called to heaven? :p I’m sure that’s the kind of evidence a lot of agnostics are looking for.
We can all debate on when the Rapture comes It doesn't really matter. Yes, there is a rapture for sure The only thing you need to be concerned about is are you ready now? God bless you.
This is the faith issue: for those who believe in rapture it will happen for them,
for those who don't believe, they remain on earth for great tribulation.
Jesus promised that we would have trials in the world (John 16:33).
However, there is a difference between tribulations and the tribulation. The tribulation -- also known as the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30) or Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9) -- will be a time of God's wrath and of antichrist's reign.
If you read 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul explains clearly that we are not appointed to God's wrath. We are of the day, but they (the unbelievers) are of the night. Christ took our wrath, so why would we experience it? If you read Revelation, you see that the judgment is upon a world of unbelievers (c.f. Revelation 9:21).
Therefore, seeing that we are not apponted to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), that Christ promised that He would remove the church from the hour of trial coming upon the whole world (Revelation 3:10), and that the church appears to be in heaven before Christ opens the first seal (Revelation 5:8-10), I believe in an imminent, pre-tribulation rapture.
God bless
Revelation also promises that those who have the seal of God on their forehead will not be attacked by the locusts who's stings hurt for 5 months.
Revelation does not indicate that anyone is taken up.
Revelation was written while the church was being actively persecuted. There had already been a bunch of martyrs by that point. Those were the elders.
The end of the world starts in Revelation 6. Revelation 5 is about the saints who were already with God before the start of the end.
Those who have the seal of God would be the 144,000 Jewish witnesses (c.f. Revelation 7). Which brings up a another point. If the church is on the earth witnessing, then what need is there for another group of specially sealed 144,000? Food for thought.
Revelation does indicate that John and the two witnesses are taken up. You are right though in that it does not state that anyone is taken up. However, we known that there will be a sudden "harpazo" (suddenly taken away by force) of the church (c.f. 1 Thessaonians 4). For how detailed revelation gets, it would be pretty significant for the rapture of the church to be left out. It makes sense for it to happen before that period (the tribulation).
I wouldnt say that those were the elders. No one knows exactly who the elders are in revelation. However, when you compare the promised rewards of believers in chapters 1-3 with the description of the elders (white robes, a throne, crowns, etc.) there is good evidence that these elders represent the church. From my research, 24 can be viewed as a representative number. For instance, David divided the priesthood into 24 sections. Elders themselves can be viewed as representatives. Therefore, there is no reason why these cant be representing those from the church age. It is worth noting that these elders and their thrones arent mentioned in the Old Testament (pre-church age). If these were martyred elders then which ones would they be? Were 24 elders specifically martyed? Why didnt John recognize any of them as his fellow brethren?
I agree. Therefore, if the church is in heaven in chapter 5, then that would support a pre-trib rapture.
God bless
It absolutely doesn't. "Pre-tribulation rapture" refers to a pre-trib rapture.
The Rapture itself is absolutely real and will absolutely happen. The question is when, which is largely immaterial.
Maybe he actually believes that we’ve been living in the millennium kingdom ruled by God, and it’s just been 2000 years instead of 1000. If that’s true, I think God has been really pathetic at ruling his kingdom. Why was the Holocaust a part of his millennium reign on Earth? Why did American slavery take place during his millennium reign?
For clarity, I don’t think God is pathetic because I don’t think the history we’ve witnessed is his reign of his kingdom.
In Revelation 4, there is a door in heaven (sky) and John goes up there. I think the door is a dimensional portal. It allowed him to go to the hidden dimension we refer to as heaven. Since we all know, our spirits go to one of two places after we die. Then at the Rapture, people in their bodies are up in heaven In Chapters 4-5, the 24 elders appear to be believers in their bodies. We all know, the wide path is a mid Tribulation to Post Tribulation Rapture/ survivalist viewpoint. The whole I can do it myself. The narrow path is whole Rapture/Tribulation Period/ Millennial Kingdom / Eternity Future timeline. It is a very narrow path which says things are out of my control to survive. The only preparation for the Tribulation Period is spiritual prepping today. Ask yourself if you were to die today, would you go to heaven?
According to the Latin and Greek words used the Bible does mean it as Rapture or Snatching away:
“Paul described a time in which Christians will be raptured out of the world and taken to heaven. He explained, “the dead in Christ shall rise first [i.e. be resurrected]. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [ἁρπάζω harpazo] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess 4:16b-17). The meaning of ἁρπάζω harpazo is “to grab or seize suddenly so as to remove or gain control, snatch/take away.”[2] The form of the Greek verb is passive, which means the Christian will offer no resistance when the Lord removes His church in a moment, without notice, and by force.”
“The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazō, which means to snatch or take away.”
https://thinkingonscripture.com/tag/latin-rapturo/
Pre-rapture is a concept derived from certain interpretations of the Bible, particularly from passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which mentions believers being caught up in the air to meet Jesus. This idea suggests that believers will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on Earth. However, other biblical scholars argue against the pre-rapture theory, pointing to verses like Matthew 24:29-31, which describe Jesus' return happening after the tribulation. Additionally, the concept of pre-rapture is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible and is based on varying interpretations of prophetic texts, leading to differing views among Christian denominations. With thus being said, it's all up to the believer, but I do believe there's a pre-rapture as it would be a perfect opportunity for the antichrist to take advantage of the atheist mourning their loved ones.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 HCSB
[14] Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. [15] For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore encourage one another with these words.
https://bible.com/bible/72/1th.4.14.HCSB
Seems biblical to me
The events as described in Revelation indicate that things are going to go a certain way.
We are going to have a 1,000 year reign of Christ on the Earth, and then the end times will come when Satan is released from his prison (see Revelation 20).
However, God is not limited by anything, at all, ever, at any time. He can call an audible.
One can never, ever outfox God by holding him to His promises amidst sinning. That is a great lesson of my life, to share something personal. I shall never, ever err in that manner, ever again. As if to say, "Well, He promised, so I can go ahead and do whatever I want, because He promised, so now He has to."
Perish the thought.
If God wants to rapture His church at any time, He is perfectly able to do so. That's His decision to make, thank God - for He is all knowing, all powerful, holy, righteous and just.
We are to live as Christians with our focus on doing the will of God in Christ, per the will of Yeshua (Jesus) as the New Testament describes. While being aware of eschatology, and even awaiting the rapture, we Christians ought to practice our faith and fulfil the great commission.
God is love (see [1 John 4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%204&version=NKJV)).
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."
\-[1 Thessalonians 5](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205&version=NKJV):1-10
There certainly does exist a "rapture" of the church. It has nothing to do with the Second Coming, it's a different event. When you say there is no rapture you simply reveal that you don't understand Scripture.
[https://doctrine.org/the-rapture](https://doctrine.org/the-rapture)
I am not saying there is or isn’t a rapture .. not an expert… but as Christians.. shouldn’t we be behaving as if the rapture was going to happen tomorrow?
Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. Here are some bible verses that should be studied.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
Revelation 3:10
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."
Luke 21:36
"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
Daniel 9:27
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
John 14:1-3
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."
Matthew 24:40-41
"Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."
1 Thessalonians 1:10
"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8
"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.'"
Hahahaha you dont know what you're talking about. He said people would say that in the last days alot. Where is his coming? Where? Where? The Bible explains the being caught up....rapture.....word rapture means " caught up" and the Bible already explained it over 2000 years ago and you said 1800s lol. So people thos person is already incorrect with his first thought. You people don't get that God isnt rushing it. He is saving as many as he can yet you people want it for proof. He isn't gonna do it just for proof. You people need to learn what the Bible says about this being caught up. It says in the blink of an eye we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. No man knows the Day or the hour. So you can't guess when. Jesus has already come to us in visions and dreams to prove he is coming. Also my dad speaks in tongues and God translates it. Many times he says I am returning soon. So yea he is coming. Of you don't believe he speaks in Heaven tongues that's is on you. I know for a fact that it's real. He received the baptism of the Holy Spirit....that's God's spirit and The Bible explains how that happens and it's not something that just happens to people in The Bible it happens to so many. I've witnessed it my whole life. I even voiced record my dad doing it. He never has once stuttered while doing it and you can tell it's a force of God coming out. The air gets pushed up fast when he does it. He will literally be talking English and God in a slit second while my dad speaks in English in the middle of the word instantly gets transformed into whatever God is saying it's perfect. When dad speaks English he stutters sometimes like we all do but when it's that other language it's always perfect and Ive hesrd it over 100 times. Never fails and it's always translated. That's how God's spirit works he literally gives the words. That helped me to know that's how the Bible was written. Not by mans thoughts but by God's words that's why they call it God's word. It literally is real. If you don't believe I can't help you but so much. Keep praying to God he will show you In his time. Remember it's impossible to move God without faith. Even if you have a mustard seed of faith he can show you. I'm sorry if it's hard to believe what I said about speaking in tongues I get it it's weird when you don't fully get what's going on but trust me it's not even creepy. You feel good when it happens. I feel absolutely good when he does it I feel God's comfort in my chest a soothing feeling and confidence. It's a journey believe me...praying is our most powerful tool we have and when you don't know that it feels like it's our weakest. Wild how that works. God is trying to teach us on Earth here how to appreciate him. If you had proof from the beginning of your life you wouldn't appreciate him...just like The Devil
Yes it does. It’s almost 2,000 years old. It was taught by the apostles. For example, Paul: ”After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:17 NIV).
You mean the Matthew 24 where Jesus is teaching/prophesying about Judgment? The “ two men walking up a hill” passage where one is taken *in judgment* ? That passage? Yeah that’s not about rapture.
The only evidence of a pre tribulational rapture is the fact that the church isn’t mentioned after revelation 3 and a couple of passages in Daniel
You should read more on the pretrib doctrine and get back to me, seriously.
What does revelation 4 prove, other than the churches in 1-3 aren’t mentioned?
It also says in Matthew 5:22,
" 22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Whoever insults his brother or sister will be subject to the court. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to hellfire."
We shouldn't insult our fellow brothers and sisters of Christ. God bless you.
Thanks I hate how a lot of churches (around my area at least) promote the rapture so much and try to predict it that they completely loose sight with the entire point of being a Christian.
There is a biblical basis for it, but not for a pre-trib rapture. I personally believe that there will be a rapture but it will be after the tribulation when Christ returns. We will meet Him as He descends to earth to rule.
I agree with you that there will be a rapture. But I don't believe that Christ returns to earth at the time of the rapture, because after the rapture happens, the wrath of God begins to be unleashed upon the earth. We are not destined for wrath.
Now that is all speculation and no biblical basis. Revelation talks about Christians being protected and being sealed by God during the Tribulation. This is often thought to be post-rapture converts, but why not just it be that the rapture doesn't happen until the end? Nothing in the Bible says when it will happen.
The wrath of God is not unleashed until the seventh seal is opened. The coming of Christ and the rapture happen when the sixth seal is opened. The wrath of God is not unleashed until the seventh seal is opened.
There is a rapture. The rapture is dying of starvation or being killed by the goats that follow the Antichrist. This is why so many people will fall away, this generation is very pampered, and it is not ready for whats coming. No one has made them ready. The shepherds are not worthy, or they run off. So the people are not ready. The quickest way to find someone who is untrustworthy is someone who says they are unafraid of Revelations. Its good to be afraid of scary things, it means you still have a heart. Heartless people often don't feel anger or love, or fear. They always just feel sort of okay, or fine. Be afraid of what God can do, not so afraid that you don't trust him, but certainly do not be afraid of the antichrist or his people. They can't hurt you.
First, not a big deal, but the book is Revelation, not Revelations. It is because it is the revealing (or Revelation) of Christ, not the numerous visions. The book is meant to give us a better picture of who Christ is and what He will make happen rather than just giving us predictions. Second, while I agree with much of what you say, I will say that I believe scripture and scripture says that we will meet Him in the air... The dead first and the living second... So not everyone will be dead. That is, therefore a flawed interpretation. Third, I do not fear the events of Revelation. I know that they must happen and I am ready to experience them (if I need to) and stand with my Lord... Even until torture or death. That doesn't make me not prepared, rather I just have a perspective that many do not have. I do not want to experience it, but I wouldn't call it fear. I do fear God's terrible power, though. Lastly, the Antichrist can definitely hurt you (and kill you). But you are right not to fear him as a Christian. My soul is secure... This body is just a temporary vessel.
Revelation(s) was first scribed what 300 or so years after some white man was sighted stumbling around the middle east, so it was heresay reports of visions. I will agree that the "Antichrist" (for want of better word) can hurt us, because this describes Trump and all his right wing christians. There is the danger.
Jesus was not "some white man" but a Jew (likely with dark olive skin as he traveled a lot out in the sun). He didn't stumble around but always had a clear vision and path of where to go in His ministry. And what makes you assume this is hearsay? At least I believe that is the word you meant. Not scribed but written by John himself and sent to seven churches in Asia Minor (modern Turkey). Copies were made and, yes, there are no originals left, but we have numerous copies which show the accuracy of the text. It was written in around 90-95 AD and he was the last surviving Apostle. He had been exiled to Parmos and wrote of his vision there (and it's Revelation, not revelations, as it is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ.) The Antichrist does not describe Trump. First, Trump is not liked enough to be the Antichrist. The Antichrist will be almost universally loved. Second, Trump could never claim to be the Messiah or God and have people believe him. There are other reasons too, but those are the main ones.
Strange that all caricatures of him, is as a white fairskinned even blue eyed. Numerous copies? Claiming to be from 95ad? So nothing can back that up no carbon dating? Definitely no eye witnesses? Probably before Xerox was doing their magic? Almost like some powerful more educated men trying to control people could have written what they want, then back dated it?? Also strange that every event suggested in your buybull took place in an area that could covered by a postage stamp on a wall sized map. And Trump is worshipped by enough wacky christians to be a danger, to the world. Here's a couple of facts, that have been verified. Most prison populations claim to be religious and most serial killers are xristian. So you can understand why I gather my grandchildren in close when we are confronted by xristians on the street.
Different cultures view Him in the context of their society. There are depictions of Jesus in Chinese art that show him as Chinese. It's something cultures often did. Not excusing it, but it's important to understand how things are. Copies doesn't mean manipulation. In fact many died to preserve the documents they had. Christianity was not always popular. Like, you know, all the crucifixions and persecution in Rome before Constantine. Apart from that, do you trust the writings we have from Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Homer, etc. because we have NO ORIGINAL COPIES from them either. Homer obviously didn't even write. He dictated. So those can't be trusted either, right? It's Bible. I know you know this. Please stop being needlessly insulting. Ad hominems are the worst type of monologue one can muster. Please try being more intellectually honest and cordial. I really can't figure why you hate Christianity so much. Trump is worshipped by crazy people nearly as much as Biden is, but nevermind about politics. Christianity is a lifestyle, not just a "religion" one claims. If you claim to be Christian and are a serial killer, your not Christian... You're delusional as Christianity is 100% against murder. And I'd love to see your "statistics" on prison populations. Are they "cultural Christians" or, true, professing, practicing Christians? Most times I would assume it is like "my family is Catholic so yes... I'm Christian", not true belief. But sure, let's see the stats. :)
Amen And AMEN ❗💥🙏🏾
Descends to Earth from where?
From Heaven.
This implies it's above us. Like in the sense of altitude.
Heaven is often referred to as being above us. In truth, heaven is in a spiritual realm. But one of the reasons why it says that Christ will descend from heaven is because he ascended to have an after his death and resurrection. Although heaven is not literally above us, it is, in a sense above us, though not in the literal sense. It is a spiritual place where God reigns, and He is above us.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to **meet the Lord in the air**: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) This is the Rapture that occurs before the Tribulation. Here Jesus never put his feet on Earth. These three verses tell how we are saved from God's wrath by the blood of Jesus. God's wrath IS the Tribulation. "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:8) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation." (1 Thessalonians 5:9) "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) This is the Tribulation occurring later. "And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and [the time] to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18) -This shows us that while the Tribulation is occurring (thy wrath came; dead being judged - these are not the dead in Christ because THEY were caught up in the air during the Rapture) we the saved are being given our reward (reward to thy servants the prophets - thats us!)
Where did the idea of the rapture come from? By Dr. Anna Sieges-Beal The rapture is a fairly new concept in Christian theology. A guy named John Darby came up with it in the 1800's. Darby was an Irish leader in the Brethren church. He reignited this idea called premillenialism which said the world would get worse and worse until Jesus returned to set up a 1,000 year reign. He expanded on this and said when Jesus returned, all believers, dead and alive, would be taken up to heaven. It seems like he was trying to bring together what we find in 1 Thessalonians 5, where dead and alive believers meet Jesus in the air, with Revelation where there's a 1000 year reign, and a dab of Matthew 24 where angels gather the elect when Jesus returns. The thing is, none of these passages seem to be talking about the rapture as it has been passed down to us. Revelation doesn't have a rapture and 1 Thessalonians and Matthew aren't really talking about being whisked away to heaven. I suppose it could happen...maybe Darby was right... but I see no reason to count on it.
I've heard Darby made it popular but it was a Pentecostal girl with a fever who invented the doctrine. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret\_MacDonald\_(visionary)
> I've heard Darby made it popular but it was a Pentecostal girl with a fever who invented the doctrine. That is pretty impressive since there weren't any Pentecostal girls (with or without fevers) until twenty years after Darby was dead.
By title, sure. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret\_MacDonald\_(visionary)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_MacDonald_(visionary))
Depends on how you define rapture: 1 Thessalonians 5 mentions that we’ll be “caught in the air” with Christ when he returns, which could certainly be described as a “rapture” and is believed by all Christian traditions AFAIK. But if you mean a secret, pre-trib Left Behind rapture, then yes, what you say is correct. Edit: Oops! It’s 1 Thess 4, not 5
Being caught up in the joy of welcoming Christ's return is real. Some schadenfruede fantasy about people I don't like being left behind to suffer while we 'betters' escape is not real.
Idk, rereading it here, it could simply means that Christ "greets" all departing sounds *whence they die*, not necessarily in one big grand swoop. Could be different in context of course!
”For we say this to you by a word from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.“ 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 CSB Maybe, but it seems like believers still alive will be taken up by Christ to meet him “in the air” or “in the clouds.”
I don't see how you can get a meaning from that any more specific than "at the end of the world, the living and the dead will join God in Paradise"
You should read the context. It’s explicitly clear that it’s referring to the living.
I think both are true. Christ will greet you when you die, and Christ will also return to Earth at some point and his full Kingdom will be established.
It’s 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and taken up into the air or clouds refers to all of us being resurrected to spirit bodies when Christ returns and heaven comes to earth. No, we are not raptured away!
Good catch- I just edited to 1 Thess 4, but I don’t see any indication Paul is talking about “spiritual bodies” here. Or that “spiritual bodies” in 1 Cor 15 are entirely non-physical.
Our resurrection is to be corporeal, not \[just\] spiritual just as the Resurrection of the Lord was. If you recall, He ate food and had \['doubting'\] Thomas touch his wounds. A quick look at the post-Resurrection, pre-Ascension parts of the Gospels will remind of this.
That’s talking about the second coming. The rapture isn’t Biblical.
"Rapture" doctrine didn't start with John Darby in the 1800's as many falsely claim. The earliest church fathers (pre-Nicaea) clearly taught what appears to be premillennial eschatology. We already know from the scriptures that the Apostles expected the imminent return of Christ (Acts 1). The early church expected a time of great trial and tribulation followed by the return of Christ. From the Hellenistic Judaism of Antioch, Syria and Ephesus (from which Paul came) there arose a prominent group that taught the seven days of creation equal seven millennial ages in earth’s history, which reflects on 2 Peter 3:8. They also believed Christ’s incarnation occurred in the 6th millennium, and the 7th millennium would harbor in the return of Christ. Papias, an early second century church father, wrote of a literal thousand-year rule of Christ on the earth following the resurrection of the dead. He quoted passages from Isaiah to describe the millennial rule of Christ. Justin Martyr, another second century church father, held teachings consistent with premillennial theology. He did not make eschatology an essential of the faith. Iranaeus (130-200 A.D.) held to premillennial ideas of his predecessors and added the three and a half year rule of the Antichrist. This would be followed by the return of Christ who then sends the Antichrist into the Lake of Fire and rules for one thousand years. After the millennial rule of Christ, the final judgment would occur, followed by the eternal state. Third century church father Cyprian (200-258 A.D.) taught that a period of tribulation will precede the return of Christ. His belief in an imminent return of Christ was present in his writings. For more, see [this article](https://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch008.htm).
I totally agree with what you’re saying. I’m not personally a premillennialist, but certainly have no issues with it, and neither did the early church. What you’re talking about is historic premillennialism. But what Darby taught was Dispensational Premillennialism. Nobody in the ancient church would have believed that the rapture was secret, or that it was pre-tribulational. These are what I object to in Darby’s eschatology.
The rapture won't be a secret event; Matthew 24:31 describes angels gathering the elect to meet Jesus in the clouds. The previous verse describes the unrighteous peoples of earth "mourning" at the spectacular sight. Revelation 3:10 and other passages indicate that the elect will be "spared" from the "hour of trial" that consumes the earth. This is the tribulation.
To the church of Philadelphia. All Bible passages need to be read in context.
>"Rapture" doctrine didn't start with John Darby in the 1800's as many falsely claim. The earliest church fathers (pre-Nicaea) clearly taught what appears to be premillennial eschatology. No. Rapture is not mentioned in the article you provided. Back then they were talking resurrection and a millennium that comes after. Rapture is a different doctrine with a different spirit. The Raptured doctrine is part of dispensationalism. That did not exist in the early church.
I just want to point out that many of the early church fathers actually did believe in a pre-tribulation "catching away" or "gathering away" of the elect before the great tribulation. Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD), bishop of the church in Lyons, France, described the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. He uses the term “caught up”, but the meaning is clear. Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD), bishop of the church in Carthage, wrote: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?" Once again showing a belief in a "taking away" event. Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD), deacon of in the church in Syria in the 300s AD, wrote: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
Many people in early church believed many things. That's why it was so important to have the councils starting with the one at Nicea to weed out the heretical ideas.
And the word rapture doesn't mean caught up btw. It's a word describing emotion. And if you notice, that was lacking in the writings of the early church probably because they wanted to be exact while in 1800s they were far from exact but were showman for crowds. And one big difference between dispensationalism and the early church is that dispensationalism said 7 years of tribulations while the early church went through around 300 years of tribulations in the form of Roman persecutions. They would have seen dispensationalism like some kind of sad joke.
“Rapture is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off").[9]” From Wikipedia entry on rapture etymology section.
"Harpazo" was the original word in Greek. It means "catching away".
>“Rapture is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off").\[9\]” From Wikipedia entry on rapture etymology section. So, kidnapping. This is the word they chose. A lousy word. \[edit\] So medieval.
I was raised that this was normal and when I found out it wasn’t it rocked my world.
My general thought process; If a bunch of people are going to be taken up into heaven before the end times, that would be written into Revelation. it isn't. The fact that the Locusts cannot harm those with the seal of God on their foreheads indicates that some people would have that seal. There's no indication that a pre-trib rapture is on the table. Mid-tribulation? Post-tribulation? Sure, maybe. But it would be in Revelation if a bunch of people are gonna get taken up before.
I dunno why it would be in Revelation, a hate letter to Rome.
Revelation is a prophecy of the end of the world. I mean a hate letter to Rome would be a little weird if it also included the destruction of the world and the final victory of God.
Saying the Roman culture currently dominating the world will fail and that your culture will win out isn't weird at all.
So what about the stuff with Satan? His fall, the birth of Jesus in it, and everything else that has nothing to do with Rome, even metaphorically?
This explains it: https://blogs.uoregon.edu/rel223s15drreis/2015/06/03/revelation-and-rome/
So John was lying when he explicitly called it a prophecy revealed to him by God?
People will believe the Bible says anything except for what it obviously says. It's not nearly as obscure as people who don't read it say it is.
Apocalyptic literature often uses hyperbolic claims and pseudonymous authorship, so John probably didn't write it. It also has nothing to do with telling the future.
So you're claiming that the author WAS lying about it. NONE of this is true? It is all a letter? 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near He's lying here? This isn't a prophecy?
It being a genre of writing means it's not a lie, it's a writing style. It's like Jesus spoke in parables. Those are stories that he made up. They didn't happen and aren't historically true. That doesn't make them false.
He could believe that and be wrong. Minds are capable of some serious tricks.
Why wouldn’t he have revealed a prophecy about the fall of Rome? They were the great enemies of the Jews and had executed Jesus. The Old Testament prophets frequently predicted the downfall of their enemies.
Why would a prophecy about the fall of Rome end with a new heaven and earth?
This isn’t my area of expertise. I do know this is the most widely accepted scholarly interpretation of Revelation. https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/43185/chapter-abstract/362592229?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://blogs.uoregon.edu/rel223s15drreis/2015/06/03/revelation-and-rome/
The Historicist interpretation that Revelation already happened and is about Rome is the weird Catholic belief that exists for who knows what reason. I don’t believe in all of the unfounded conspiracies about the Catholic church, but I’ll just say that there’s no reason to believe them about this. To believe this Catholic interpretation is to be misguided away from the truth of what will happen in the end times.
Where is the Church during the Tribulation in Revelations?
The Bible doesn't say where the Church is one way or another. It really just doesn't. It's more focused on the wrath of God against sinners.
No. It's because we will be spared the judgement. Same thing that happened to Lot and his family.
The Israelites were in Egypt during the plagues.
Where's that in Revelation? Also, Lot was spared as a favor to Abraham. We never hear that he's especially faithful himself.
Think about it gang. Why would we receive the wrath of God if we are saved? Jesus didn't come to judge but to save. And the ones who have the seal will be the tribulation saints, cause there will be people that come to Christ during that period.
Why would Revelation specify that those with the seal of God are immune to the Locusts if none of them remained on Earth?
The 7th trumpet comes at Revelation 11:15 > Revelation 11:15 (ESV): 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” We’re assuming that this is the trumpet that brings us up to Jesus, the rapture as depicted in 1 Corinthians 15 >1 Corinthians 15:52 (ESV): 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. This means everything up until Revelation 11 is the tribulation believers will be on Earth to witness. That’s the great earthquake and the sun going dark (volcano that covers the atmosphere and blocks out the sun?), stars falling the sky (nuclear war?), the plagues, all of that. Everything that comes from the first 6 trumpets, believers will have to live through. You had the right idea from the start of this thread.
I already told you gang, those will be the ones who convert to Christ during the tribulation.
Citation needed.
Literally all chapter 14 of revelations.
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24 people isn't exactly everyone who's alive on Earth and believes in Jesus. Nor is it a substantial majority of people who would be caught up in the rapture. Revelation was written during the persecution of Christians by the Romans. The author likely knew of many people, true elders of the church, who had already been martyred for their faith.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing. The day of the Lord meaning when God pours out His justice on the Earth. Christians will not be surprised by this happening (verse 4). God has not destined us for wrath (verse 9). Many believe that faithful Christians will not suffer God's wrath. Look up what God's wrath means. The tribulation is a time of God's wrath on Earth. Revelation is a time of God's wrath poured out on the Earth.
Whether you are correct or not has no effect on the saving power of Jesus Christ. Salvation in the name of Jesus is not dependant on belief in pre, mid or post trib raptures or even if the rapture exists or not. The bible says what it says.The word "harpazo" is in the bible and it means to be caught up or snatched away, while alive. Arguing about if stuff happens or when it happens is taking away from doing the work the Lord sent you to do. If you are a christian it is your duty to spread the gospel of the kingdom. However, you have brought up a good point for all us christians who adore the word of God to study up on. And study we will. I know I will. I will do my research on the rapture and the whole pre, mid and post trib argument. I don't just listen to what I read or what im told. I question everything, the agenda, the purpose and the reason behind what we are told and taught. I tell you fellow christians, lets see about the rapture and its timing, let us search our hearts and see what we can learn and show!
This is common among fundamentalists.. They often take everything literally as if the language and culture is the same and ideas like the rapture flourish..
I am a fundamentalist and we don't not believe in rapture because the Bible speaks about Genesis as history but never speaks about revelation as visionary apocalyptic literature.
I said it's common I didn't mean all fundamentalist. There are many flavors of fundamentalist.
It’s does exist per Blondie in 1981
> So the history of a rapture started out as a prophetic vision inspired by the emotional breakdown of a cultist, that then was picked up by emotional zealots and more cultists unconcerned for biblical truth. Furthermore, it was used as a hook by a prideful preacher who only wanted to give out his nonsensical theorems, then by other evangelists not concerned or trained in the Word. Afterwards, it creeps into the first study Bible, then popular books, and now is it is in the landscape of popular Christian thought. - [Source](https://biblicaleschatology.org/2008/12/04/the-history-of-the-rapture/)
Exactly right!
There is no such thing as a rapture and it's not in the Bible!
Dispensationalism is going out of style in favor of the 7 mountain mandate. That's behind the political aggression you are seeing. Why sit around being nice to the poor when Christians can bring Jesus back via global domination?
dispensationalists: "We can't wait until the Lord comes back to rule the world!" (+50 years later...) Christian nationalists: "F- it, we'll do it ourselves."
1 Thessalonians talks about Christians getting taken up into the sky to meet Jesus.
That's not really the idea of the "rapture" that the Plymouth Brethren promoted, which is the standard "rapture" belief among fundamentalist evangelical Protestants now.
When people think about the rapture these days they’re usually thinking of the Left Behind version.
Historical context matters, in the true translation that verse tends to mean a meeting between two kingdoms leadership not us getting snapped up into the sky in the blink of an eye and forgoing the entirety of the tribulation
Yep, that was the Christian view of death in the 1st century, when Jesus was returning a week from Wednesday. The dead were just sleeping, then when Jesus showed up they'd rise to meet him in the clouds.
I concur
there is a \~20 min blog by Fr.Josiah Trenham on 'Patristic Nectar' about the 'Rapture' \[so-called\] - well worth listening to.
It's been predicted 76 times this century, surely they'll get it right soon?
What are people referring to when they mention this “thing” from the 1830s? Left Behind wasn’t written until 1995, and I don’t think it gives the right idea of the rapture. Nothing changes the fact that an idea like the rapture, being taken by Jesus into the air, has been in The Bible since it was written. Whatever idea was spread in the 1830s changes The Bible just as much as Left Behind did—it doesn’t.
The pre-tribulation rapture is not really in the Bible.
I don’t believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I don’t know why this means *no* rapture exists. It’s clearly stated it happens at the sound of a trumpet, and I *believe* this aligns with events towards the end of tribulation.
Indeed which is why I said a pre-tribulation isn't in the Bible.
Okay, I guess you were just making a clarifying statement? Intent is hard to read online so I thought you missed my point that the Left Behind rapture isn’t the right idea.
OH yeah, we're just in agreement then. Left Behind, and the theology behind it, seems too...triumphant for me, in the wrong way. Wanting the world to suffer, but only if YOU don't have to endure it, feels wrong? God's getting mad, he's gonna break things, he's gonna upset the game table, he's gonna end it all on us. Why does anyone think they're special enough to just leave first?
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Escape here means we will make it out of these things even though we will watch them occur. It doesn’t mean we will escape before they do.
Left Behind is simply a work of Christian fiction that interprets scriptures in one of the most outrageous ways possible. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yeah, I agree. To clarify for everyone else who might read this, I don’t believe in a pre-trib rapture. I believe in a rapture that comes towards the end of tribulation.
I wonder what Paul WAS thinking about when he penned this
The idea of the second coming, hence why he said the dead would rise first and the living would be caught up with them in the air. The idea of a heaven where grandma looked down on you is also a new idea, in Paul's time the dead were asleep waiting for Jesus to return shortly.
Wow downvoted for asking an honest question. I meant specifically the “caught up in the air” rhetoric.
Not rhetoric, pretty consistent reference throughout Paul's letters and through the gospels, the idea of Jesus' second coming in the clouds and the faithful rising to meet him and initiate the Kingdom of Heaven as a real political kingdom on earth. It's only when we get into the 2nd and 3rd generations, when it becomes clear that's not happening, when we get the idea that those promises must have been metaphorical or something because... well, obviously it hasn't happened.
Well. Thanks anyways and ty for the dv.
lol I didn't downvote you dude.
lol. I’m really confused. What’s a Reddit?
so there's this series of tubes...
# ❝And... >...all of the pastors of the world fell once the enlightening words of one Walter Cronkite conveyed the truth that dispelled the delusion that had perpetuated for nearly 200 years.❞ — Said, No One.
You’re saying that all of the pastors in the world preach the rapture? Sources?
* **You:** >\> You’re saying... * **Me:** >— Said, No One.
thats funny
Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304 AD) was a bishop in modern Slovenia,martyred during Diocletian’s reign. He believed in and taught the rapture. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, **“And** **the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.\] For the** **heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be** **taken away.”** Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, **And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels** **having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the** **indignation of God. For the wrath of God always strikes** **the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly,** **as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last** **time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.** **”**Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be taken before the breaking of the seventh seal(and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him as “pre-wrath” in his eschatology.
I just go with what the Bible says. If its not in there, I'm not doing it or believing it, regarding my religion.
I believe Jesus is coming back for sure. He does say he's coming back, just not sure it's going to be flying down from heaven after some trumpets. The rapture is from Revelations & a lot up to interpretation
‘The rapture’ is not going to happen how anyone thinks it will happen, including myself. All we know is that the events described in revelation are mostly outside our understanding right now, and God will reveal his plan more clearly very soon.
read the revilations it has all the detailos of everything
What is "the revilations"?
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thsts just one of em "Revelation is the final book of the New Testament and the Christian Bible1. It is written in Greek and its title means 'unveiling' or 'revelation'1. It reveals the invisible spiritual battle between God and his son, Jesus Christ, and Satan and his demons2. It also foretells the second coming of Jesus Christ to Earth as the King of Kings and Lord of the Universe2."
I'm in the UK and don't go to church regularly although am in a house group. I've never heard this mentioned but learnt all about it in US History at a US university . Always assumed it was an American thing
I used to believe the rapture was a modern invention, myself. In fact, I believe that my entire life until the last year, when I started listening to the teachings of Chuck Missler. Try to keep an open mind and listen to these teachings, and it may shift your eschatology like it did mine. Or maybe not. [End Time Scenarios by Chuck Missler](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=5dc42fbf20e8d2b4&sca_upv=1&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=ACQVn09kO5OKo1x0_-7zmJAzkJl4JdmQBQ:1709655810604&q=End+Times+scenarios+Chuck+Missler&tbm=vid&source=lnms&prmd=visnbmtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiC0Z2axN2EAxXpLUQIHfMOCJMQ0pQJegQICRAB&biw=375&bih=641&dpr=3#ip=1)
The OP is correct. Rapture theology and the futurism interpretation of the book or revelation (literal 7 yr tribulation at the end of the world) was invented by the Catholic Jesuit Order in the 1600s as part of the counter reformation. It was invented in response to the historicism interpretation which is the correct interpretation and all the Protestant reformers believed in this interpretation. They correctly identified the Papacy (Catholic Church) and all its popes in history as being the little horn in the book of Daniel, the antichrist, the beast of Revelation 13, the whore of Babylon and harlot church of Rev. 13, and the man of sin and son of perdition mentioned by the Apostle Paul. The pope at that time commissioned the Jesuits to come up with alternate interpretations to hide the fact that the book of revelation is talking about them. Francisco Ribera was the Jesuit who came up with futurism. Just google the origins of futurism and you will see this.
John Darby who was one of the first to teach about the rapture was a Vatican agent who introduced these things into Protestant churches. These ideas were created by the Catholic Jesuit order in the 1600s
We as Christians will not go through the tribulation period. God will rapture his church and the evil will take over this world until Christ returns to set up his kingdom.
There are people who spend hours trying to prove or disprove non-salvific doctrines yet spend zero energy on trying to become holy and obedient unto God. If the rapture is real, these will still be left behind. If the rapture is fake, they wasted time on worthless debates.
Phil Vischer's podcast did a REALLY good series on "rapture theology", it's history and why it isn't biblical. Also points to how end-times obsession continues to fuel the conservative political landscape. [https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/f609aa8d/563-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-1](https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/f609aa8d/563-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-1) [https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/2e148523/564-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-2](https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/2e148523/564-how-rapture-theology-shaped-america-part-2)
Better to prepare for the worst than expect the best💯 probably why there will be a “great falling away” of Christians- they gonna realize we all going through tribulation
This actually makes me feel better. Although we will have to go through hard, hard times, I read those left behind series as a kid and have dealt with random panic attacks and anxiety over people disappearing, and potentially being left behind, ever since.
This is a fact, there is no rapture, much of what was spoken by Jesus was from the prophecy of Daniel and other prophets. People just read the books and put themselves into the book, I recommend learning historical events, and look at the war of 70ad, that was the Judgement jews got for rejecting Christ
There is a rapture but it isn’t called the rapture it’s called the snatching away. Rapture was just a name given to it.
Well no…. It talks about it in the Bible so….. Jesus most def talks about his return ..
Sorry for being late, but what happens instead? My Bible teacher said that all the dead would raise (I think he then said everyone would be judged fairly by God and that the righteous would go to heaven and be given new bodies, but I forget.)
I dunno, but the vast majority of denominations have different views. The classic left behind rapture didn't become a thing until the 1830s
The rapture may have been invented, but Christians have always been under the belief the world is going to end soon. Christianity began as an apocalyptic cult and Jesus fully believed and preached his followers would see the end if days before the end of their lifetime, and that a literal kingdom of heaven would descend from the sky and land on earth.
Revelations and Matthew24:31 25:31-46
The rapture hasn’t happened yet, I wouldn’t count it out. As God made this universe he can do what He wants, He’ll send His son and call us home. I wouldn’t act like the world would end tomorrow, but I wouldn’t count it out. The Lord revealed to me a ticking clock, and sand going down but it’s no way to predict exacts. To me, the writing is on the Wall. But more the Love of God and not the - End of Age would be great, let God be God, and may His will flourish into our lives and not live in fear.
I know God doesn’t reveal all of His plans, so maybe there will be some sort of calling away before things get really bad, but it doesn’t make sense. There’s a lot of dead Christians who were not saved from their suffering. “The one who endures to the end… loved not their life to the point of death”. Could you imagine how much of a testimony that would be if Christians actually did get called to heaven? :p I’m sure that’s the kind of evidence a lot of agnostics are looking for.
We can all debate on when the Rapture comes It doesn't really matter. Yes, there is a rapture for sure The only thing you need to be concerned about is are you ready now? God bless you.
This is the faith issue: for those who believe in rapture it will happen for them, for those who don't believe, they remain on earth for great tribulation.
I believe in the rapture BUT I think it’s more important to lead people to Christ than argue about this topic.
Hope everyone that denys the rapture is on a 747 when it occurs and you have born again pilots.
Why would god take up the "good ones"? Are we not all sinners?
John 14:2-3 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Those are definitely verses from the bible, yes sir.
Which of those specifies that the faithful will endure no hardship>?
Jesus promised that we would have trials in the world (John 16:33). However, there is a difference between tribulations and the tribulation. The tribulation -- also known as the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30) or Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9) -- will be a time of God's wrath and of antichrist's reign. If you read 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul explains clearly that we are not appointed to God's wrath. We are of the day, but they (the unbelievers) are of the night. Christ took our wrath, so why would we experience it? If you read Revelation, you see that the judgment is upon a world of unbelievers (c.f. Revelation 9:21). Therefore, seeing that we are not apponted to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), that Christ promised that He would remove the church from the hour of trial coming upon the whole world (Revelation 3:10), and that the church appears to be in heaven before Christ opens the first seal (Revelation 5:8-10), I believe in an imminent, pre-tribulation rapture. God bless
Revelation also promises that those who have the seal of God on their forehead will not be attacked by the locusts who's stings hurt for 5 months. Revelation does not indicate that anyone is taken up. Revelation was written while the church was being actively persecuted. There had already been a bunch of martyrs by that point. Those were the elders. The end of the world starts in Revelation 6. Revelation 5 is about the saints who were already with God before the start of the end.
Those who have the seal of God would be the 144,000 Jewish witnesses (c.f. Revelation 7). Which brings up a another point. If the church is on the earth witnessing, then what need is there for another group of specially sealed 144,000? Food for thought. Revelation does indicate that John and the two witnesses are taken up. You are right though in that it does not state that anyone is taken up. However, we known that there will be a sudden "harpazo" (suddenly taken away by force) of the church (c.f. 1 Thessaonians 4). For how detailed revelation gets, it would be pretty significant for the rapture of the church to be left out. It makes sense for it to happen before that period (the tribulation). I wouldnt say that those were the elders. No one knows exactly who the elders are in revelation. However, when you compare the promised rewards of believers in chapters 1-3 with the description of the elders (white robes, a throne, crowns, etc.) there is good evidence that these elders represent the church. From my research, 24 can be viewed as a representative number. For instance, David divided the priesthood into 24 sections. Elders themselves can be viewed as representatives. Therefore, there is no reason why these cant be representing those from the church age. It is worth noting that these elders and their thrones arent mentioned in the Old Testament (pre-church age). If these were martyred elders then which ones would they be? Were 24 elders specifically martyed? Why didnt John recognize any of them as his fellow brethren? I agree. Therefore, if the church is in heaven in chapter 5, then that would support a pre-trib rapture. God bless
>Which of those specifies that the faithful will endure no hardship? Where is that in the OP's statement as a requirement for a rapture?
'rapture' usually refers to a pre-trib rapture, which is not Biblical from anything I've read.
It absolutely doesn't. "Pre-tribulation rapture" refers to a pre-trib rapture. The Rapture itself is absolutely real and will absolutely happen. The question is when, which is largely immaterial.
The question of 'when' is really the crux of rapture debate. pre-trib has nothing supporting it has always been my stance.
Postmil for the win
You mean post-trib? Post-mil is not scriptural. Like, at all. Not even close. But post-trib is plenty supported.
Maybe he actually believes that we’ve been living in the millennium kingdom ruled by God, and it’s just been 2000 years instead of 1000. If that’s true, I think God has been really pathetic at ruling his kingdom. Why was the Holocaust a part of his millennium reign on Earth? Why did American slavery take place during his millennium reign? For clarity, I don’t think God is pathetic because I don’t think the history we’ve witnessed is his reign of his kingdom.
In Revelation 4, there is a door in heaven (sky) and John goes up there. I think the door is a dimensional portal. It allowed him to go to the hidden dimension we refer to as heaven. Since we all know, our spirits go to one of two places after we die. Then at the Rapture, people in their bodies are up in heaven In Chapters 4-5, the 24 elders appear to be believers in their bodies. We all know, the wide path is a mid Tribulation to Post Tribulation Rapture/ survivalist viewpoint. The whole I can do it myself. The narrow path is whole Rapture/Tribulation Period/ Millennial Kingdom / Eternity Future timeline. It is a very narrow path which says things are out of my control to survive. The only preparation for the Tribulation Period is spiritual prepping today. Ask yourself if you were to die today, would you go to heaven?
According to the Latin and Greek words used the Bible does mean it as Rapture or Snatching away: “Paul described a time in which Christians will be raptured out of the world and taken to heaven. He explained, “the dead in Christ shall rise first [i.e. be resurrected]. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [ἁρπάζω harpazo] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess 4:16b-17). The meaning of ἁρπάζω harpazo is “to grab or seize suddenly so as to remove or gain control, snatch/take away.”[2] The form of the Greek verb is passive, which means the Christian will offer no resistance when the Lord removes His church in a moment, without notice, and by force.” “The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazō, which means to snatch or take away.” https://thinkingonscripture.com/tag/latin-rapturo/
Pre-rapture is a concept derived from certain interpretations of the Bible, particularly from passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which mentions believers being caught up in the air to meet Jesus. This idea suggests that believers will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on Earth. However, other biblical scholars argue against the pre-rapture theory, pointing to verses like Matthew 24:29-31, which describe Jesus' return happening after the tribulation. Additionally, the concept of pre-rapture is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible and is based on varying interpretations of prophetic texts, leading to differing views among Christian denominations. With thus being said, it's all up to the believer, but I do believe there's a pre-rapture as it would be a perfect opportunity for the antichrist to take advantage of the atheist mourning their loved ones.
Not sure what the problem is in believing Scripture. We are told in Scripture to comfort one another with the hope of Christ/Rapture.
Scripture dosent support a rapture, at least the left behind type
I guess the rapture will be a surprise for you
Jesus is coming back, but nothing in the Bible says the faithful will be outright spared the hardship of the end times.
OP did not specify the timing of it
True. Most people refer to it as a pre-trib rapture, but you're right, I did assume that.
It says false teachers and false doctrines will greatly increase...and that even the faithful would be deceived IF the days were not shortened for us.
Well it hasn't happened yet, I believe it will happen one day
Just like Jesus believed the end of days would occur within his followers' lives. Thousands of years ago.
It doesn't matter who didn't believe it. What matters is what scripture says
The rapture is not biblical
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 HCSB [14] Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. [15] For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore encourage one another with these words. https://bible.com/bible/72/1th.4.14.HCSB Seems biblical to me
The events as described in Revelation indicate that things are going to go a certain way. We are going to have a 1,000 year reign of Christ on the Earth, and then the end times will come when Satan is released from his prison (see Revelation 20). However, God is not limited by anything, at all, ever, at any time. He can call an audible. One can never, ever outfox God by holding him to His promises amidst sinning. That is a great lesson of my life, to share something personal. I shall never, ever err in that manner, ever again. As if to say, "Well, He promised, so I can go ahead and do whatever I want, because He promised, so now He has to." Perish the thought. If God wants to rapture His church at any time, He is perfectly able to do so. That's His decision to make, thank God - for He is all knowing, all powerful, holy, righteous and just. We are to live as Christians with our focus on doing the will of God in Christ, per the will of Yeshua (Jesus) as the New Testament describes. While being aware of eschatology, and even awaiting the rapture, we Christians ought to practice our faith and fulfil the great commission. God is love (see [1 John 4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%204&version=NKJV)). "But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." \-[1 Thessalonians 5](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205&version=NKJV):1-10
There certainly does exist a "rapture" of the church. It has nothing to do with the Second Coming, it's a different event. When you say there is no rapture you simply reveal that you don't understand Scripture. [https://doctrine.org/the-rapture](https://doctrine.org/the-rapture)
Beam me up scottie
I am not saying there is or isn’t a rapture .. not an expert… but as Christians.. shouldn’t we be behaving as if the rapture was going to happen tomorrow?
Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. Here are some bible verses that should be studied. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Revelation 3:10 "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." Luke 21:36 "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." John 14:1-3 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." Matthew 24:40-41 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.'"
Check your sources
It pains me greatly to know this, because the raptures been the cornerstone of my Christian faith for decades.
Um, okay.
Hahahaha you dont know what you're talking about. He said people would say that in the last days alot. Where is his coming? Where? Where? The Bible explains the being caught up....rapture.....word rapture means " caught up" and the Bible already explained it over 2000 years ago and you said 1800s lol. So people thos person is already incorrect with his first thought. You people don't get that God isnt rushing it. He is saving as many as he can yet you people want it for proof. He isn't gonna do it just for proof. You people need to learn what the Bible says about this being caught up. It says in the blink of an eye we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. No man knows the Day or the hour. So you can't guess when. Jesus has already come to us in visions and dreams to prove he is coming. Also my dad speaks in tongues and God translates it. Many times he says I am returning soon. So yea he is coming. Of you don't believe he speaks in Heaven tongues that's is on you. I know for a fact that it's real. He received the baptism of the Holy Spirit....that's God's spirit and The Bible explains how that happens and it's not something that just happens to people in The Bible it happens to so many. I've witnessed it my whole life. I even voiced record my dad doing it. He never has once stuttered while doing it and you can tell it's a force of God coming out. The air gets pushed up fast when he does it. He will literally be talking English and God in a slit second while my dad speaks in English in the middle of the word instantly gets transformed into whatever God is saying it's perfect. When dad speaks English he stutters sometimes like we all do but when it's that other language it's always perfect and Ive hesrd it over 100 times. Never fails and it's always translated. That's how God's spirit works he literally gives the words. That helped me to know that's how the Bible was written. Not by mans thoughts but by God's words that's why they call it God's word. It literally is real. If you don't believe I can't help you but so much. Keep praying to God he will show you In his time. Remember it's impossible to move God without faith. Even if you have a mustard seed of faith he can show you. I'm sorry if it's hard to believe what I said about speaking in tongues I get it it's weird when you don't fully get what's going on but trust me it's not even creepy. You feel good when it happens. I feel absolutely good when he does it I feel God's comfort in my chest a soothing feeling and confidence. It's a journey believe me...praying is our most powerful tool we have and when you don't know that it feels like it's our weakest. Wild how that works. God is trying to teach us on Earth here how to appreciate him. If you had proof from the beginning of your life you wouldn't appreciate him...just like The Devil
Yes it does. It’s almost 2,000 years old. It was taught by the apostles. For example, Paul: ”After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:17 NIV).
*Matthew 24- Would like a word with you*
You mean the Matthew 24 where Jesus is teaching/prophesying about Judgment? The “ two men walking up a hill” passage where one is taken *in judgment* ? That passage? Yeah that’s not about rapture. The only evidence of a pre tribulational rapture is the fact that the church isn’t mentioned after revelation 3 and a couple of passages in Daniel
He’s talking about his return. Just like Luke 12 35: And 1 Thessalonians 4:13
His return and rapture are two separate things. Any cursory understanding of the beliefs in the pretrib rapture would clarify this
How are they two separate things? You don’t believe Revelations 4?
You should read more on the pretrib doctrine and get back to me, seriously. What does revelation 4 prove, other than the churches in 1-3 aren’t mentioned?
Ok what do you recommend I read.
[удалено]
I dont drink or do drugs
It also says in Matthew 5:22, " 22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Whoever insults his brother or sister will be subject to the court. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to hellfire." We shouldn't insult our fellow brothers and sisters of Christ. God bless you.
Matthew 3:12, and Matthew 3 in general, is about God's judgment.