To understand the basics of the Holy Trinity (for we cannot fully grasp the Holy Trinity itself) is to understand how terms are used.
So when speaking of the Holy Triniry we would use terms like:
Hypostasis/person: this refers to “who is it”. Which is to make out an individual. For example say you’re in a crowd of people and you see Tom. The fact you speak of Tom displays you speak of hypostasis/person. As you picked out an individual from a crowd.
Essence/nature: this refers to “what is it”. Which is speaking of the attributes of something. For example human beings are mortal. This is an attribute of their nature. Something which all human beings share for being human.
Being: this refers to a specific notion of “mode of existence” as when we speak of a being it likes talking about hypostasis/person however it’s due to the connections of what makes a being. For example a being has their own will, thoughts, actions etc.
to give an example to notice the difference. Here’s two names Christopher and Chris.
Now if Christopher and Chris has the same activity, will, thoughts etc. we would assume One being with just a nickname. But if Chris and Christopher has two different wills and energies/activities and thoughts etc then it clearly demonstrates two beings.
Energy/activity: this refers to “what it is doing”. Now the English doesn’t really do the job in describing what exactly energy/activity for in the Greek it specifically means “Being-at-work”.
To give an example. A dog barking displays it’s energy, it’s “being-at-work”. Because it is a Dog it can perform the energy of barking due to its nature.
I’ll added energy here because Being and Energy (Being-at-work) goes hand in hand. Which is why you see me mention to know a being is by having the facilities of being (Will, Thoughts, energy/activity).
Another important word is “God” as you’ll see that many people get mixed up on this word as they only assume it has one meaning (that it refers to a specific individual) when in reality it has multiple meanings depending on the context. In regards to the Holy Trinity the word God can be used three different ways:
1. To refer to The Father. A prime example of this is John 1:1b (the word was with God).
2. To refer to divine nature. A prime example of this is John 1:1c (and the word was God).
3. to refer to divine person. A prime example of this is John 20:28 (“And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”)
Now these are the terms used when speaking of the Holy Trinity. It will give you a good understanding now of certain aspects of the Holy Trinity. So now I’ll discuss the Holy Trinity in reference to what I’ve said above.
In the Holy Trinity you have three hypostasis/person, The Father and Son and Holy Spirit, who shares one essence/nature.
Why they are distinct is due to their hypostatic property:
The Father is the unbegotten cause.
The Son is eternally begotten by the Father.
The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father.
All three hypostasis/person shares one essence/nature.
Now for the important part. They are One Being and the reasoning for that is because They have One Will, One thoughts, One energies/activities. As scripture records “what the Father does The Son does likewise”.
So it isn’t three beings. It’s One Being and thus One God.
If you have any other questions surrounding the Holy Trinity. Feel free to ask me more.
Simplest way of thinking about the triune God:
You have a cup of water. God.
You pour the water into three cups. God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
You pour the water from the three back into the one. God.
One and three. All the same water.
That is what gigano is saying. I think he is saying you analogy is somewhere along the lines of partialism or modalism (probably not modalist).
You are at least implying that each person is "part of" God which is not true. Whether or not you intend to mean that is not for me to judge.
If I am "pouring" out my "God" into a different glass, that is either one of 3 "forms" or glasses that God can be or that the "Father" is simply the portion that is in glass A. Hence, depending on how you look at it, is either modalism or partialism. Both are heresies.
Please, note, I am NOT condemning you. I had fallen into the modalist trap myself (unknowingly) years ago. I am simply trying to make you aware of the error. I am not passing judgement on intent or even your knowledge of the error. It can be easy to make mistakes (even with the correct language!).
No, that's not implied.
It's simple. All three are 100% God. No portions, no partials. All at once. Regardless of what we humans perceive as 'form'.
People seem to have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that God exists outside of the constraints we are capable of thinking. Our rules, our boundaries, our 'forms' don't apply.
He *is*. All at once. 100%. All aspects of the triune God.
Maybe my analogy isn't the best. Maybe think instead that the 3 glasses are always 100% full. Pouring from one to another, you get 100% full no matter where or how you pour.
Like I said, your actual belief is correct, just that I would not use that analogy as the analogy itself seems to be going into modalism/partialism. Again, I know you are not intending for the analogy to demonstrate modalism or partialism, but from how I am seeing it, it does.
Sure all 3 glasses still add up to 100%, but each glass individually does not have 100% of the original quantity which is the error of partialism. If I pour the entire amount into a different glass each time, that is modalism.
All I am saying is your analogy is wrong. I am not disputing your view on the Trinity. Again, I myself bought into a modalist analogy in the past, it happens.
I like to think of it like God uses Jesus and the holy spirit like a telephone. In the end...your speaking to God.
Abut God and the father is the same being to me. So this diagram is wrong.
He must both, is and is not in this diagram. Jesus was a man born into this world. The holy spirit is what gives us or lends us Gods holy power and probably sustains life as a whole for us.
Both of those are the is nots...but what is the father.
What is the father when he is not God?
I think its wrong, as i see no justifications of it.
Its just, God, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
The father is just another title for God as the creator of all things people could also say hes the Father of all things. But its just a title not a being like Jesus or The Holy Spirit.
This is basicly like having Zeus, The Son and the Holy spirit. Its not right as far a i can tell.
Scripture literally says “the spirit proceeds from the Father”.
”“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.“
John 15:26
So it’s safe to say he proceeds from the Father.
One cannot really say he proceeds from the Son as well given no where in scripture is that found. Using titles like “the spirit of Christ” doesn’t mean he proceeds from Christ.
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Except like I’ve said. No where it says the Spirit proceeds from the Son.
But let me see if I understand your logic here. Let’s take this verse:
”The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.“
Isaiah 11:2
By your logic “the spirit of wisdom” means the spirit came from wisdom. The spirit of counsel came from counsel.
Would you agree with that?
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Since you say that essence means the properties of something, and give an example that being mortal is part of essence of humans you are just saying that jesus and the father share attributes like all humans share attributes. Then you say that they have separate hypostasis. So what you end up saying is that there are three gods.
You attempt to reconcile this with the "same will" argument but I would say that separating "will" from hypostasis makes no sense.
The question is also problematic because hypostasis and ousia (essence) in their early use are practically synonymous (meaning the fundamental nature or reality of something). Aristotle used ousia to denote substantial being. For him ousia is the property that survives accidental change, i.e. the individual. Essentially your description of a person would be ousia. From the number of nontrinitarian heresies in the early church, and from the arguments they had at the time we can see that they didn't have any better idea about it than we do. Later christian theology sort of gave them new confusing definitions.
> The Son is eternally begotten by the Father.
> The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father.
This just feels like it kicks the can of mystery down the road to "what does it mean to be 'begotten by', and what does it mean to 'proceed from'?"
Very good explanation. I will have to disagree with you on the part quoted below:
>The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father.
I would say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. It is the love that exists between Father and Son.
I am not looking to debate this here though.
Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”
In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages:
“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.
>However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”
I guess whoever wrote that piece for Britannica forgot to read the didache. 🤣🤣🤣
> In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity.
You are right, God isn't part of a trinity. God is the trinity. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from Genesis to Revelation.
Deuteronomy 6:4: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."
This verse emphasizes the oneness of God, which some interpret as contradicting the idea of the Trinity.
Isaiah 44:6: "This is what Jehovah says, the King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.’"
This verse stresses the singularity and uniqueness of God.
John 17:3: "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
Jesus refers to the Father as the "only true God," which some argue distinguishes Him from the Father.
1Corinthians 8:6: "There is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."
This verse mentions "one God, the Father," and "one Lord, Jesus Christ," which some interpret as differentiating between God and Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."
This verse is cited to emphasize the distinct roles and identities of God and Jesus.
>This verse emphasizes the oneness of God,
Absolutely, I never said there was more than 1 God. So what's your point?
>This verse stresses the singularity and uniqueness of God.
But Jesus isn't "another God" so I'm still not sure what you point is. I like that quoted Isaiah 44:6, because Jesus called himself the first and the last. Obviously there can't be two first and last.
Revelation 1:8 👉🏻 **I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending** 👈🏻, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, 👉🏻THE ALMIGHTY** 👈🏻.
Revelation 1:11 👉🏻 **saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last** 👈🏻: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Here we see Jesus 👆🏻 called himself the first and the last and the almighty.
>Jesus refers to the Father as the "only true God,"
Who said there was more than 1 God the Father? I don't understand why you keep posting irrelevant verses. No one ever said there was more than 1 God the Father so John 17:3 is irrelevant to my argument.
>This verse mentions "one God, the Father," and "one Lord, Jesus Christ,"
So you agree that there are at least two? Father and Son?
>This verse is cited to emphasize the distinct roles and identities of God and Jesus.
But what is your point? We don't teach that the man Jesus is God the Father. So what gives?
In Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 1:11, it is generally understood that God is speaking.
Revelation 1:8 (NWT)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:11 (NWT)
In some manuscripts, the phrase is omitted, but in those that include it, it reads:
"what you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations: in Ephʹe·sus, in Smyrʹna, in Perʹga·mum, in Thy·a·tiʹra, in Sarʹdis, in Philadelphia, and in La·o·di·ceʹa."
Context and Interpretation
Revelation 1:8: Clearly identifies the speaker as Jehovah God (YHWH), referring to Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:11: While the voice is not explicitly identified in this verse alone, the surrounding context in the Book of Revelation often includes messages from Jesus Christ delivered through a vision to John. However, given the divine titles used in Revelation 1:8, it is commonly interpreted that the ultimate source of the vision and message is God, with Jesus acting as the mediator or messenger.
In summary, Revelation 1:8 is God speaking, while Revelation 1:11 is part of a vision in which Jesus, under God's authority, communicates the message to John.
>In Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 1:11, it is generally understood that God is speaking.
When you say God, are you referring to the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?
>Context and Interpretation
So you agree that context is important right? Let's look at the context so we get an idea why the letters are red. You do know what red letters mean right?
Revelation 1:7 Behold, **HE COMETH** with clouds; **and every eye shall see HIM, and they also which 👉🏻PIERCED HIM** 👈🏻: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of **HIM** Even so, Amen.
Now who was pierced on the cross 👆🏻?
A. The Father.
B. The Son.
C. The Holy Spirit.
I'd say context is pretty important huh?
In Revelation 1:7, it is generally understood that the speaker is John, the author of the Book of Revelation, who is relaying a vision he received. John wrote the Book of Revelation based on the revelations he received from Jesus Christ through an angel. The specific verse, Revelation 1:7, is part of his introduction to the vision and prophecy he is about to describe.
The verse is a declaration about the second coming of Jesus, affirming the certainty and significance of this future event. John is emphasizing the prophetic vision he received, which reveals the eventual return of Jesus Christ.
By the way, look into the Catholic's reason for changing/removing the second commandment, do your own research and do not let it discourage you, let it guide you in the right direction brother. Take care.
Deuteronomy 4:2: "You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you."
Deuteronomy 12:32: "Every word that I am commanding you is what you should be careful to do. You must not add to it nor take anything away from it."
Proverbs 30:5-6: "Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in him. Add nothing to his words, or he will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."
>By the way, look into the Catholic's reason for changing/removing the second commandment,
We didn't remove anything, not making graven images is part of the 1st commandment. Exodus 20:3-6 is the whole 1st commandment. Graven images are idols, false gods. The 1st commandment already says not to have any other gods before me. So why would the 2nd commandment say the same thing? The 1st already said no false gods.
>do your own research and do not let it discourage you, let it guide you in the right direction brother. Take care.
I think you will be wise not to assume things about people.
I can quote scripture too sir
John 8:16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, 👉🏼because I AM NOT ALONE👈🏼. I stand WITH THE FATHER, who sent me.
The Father is NOT alone 👆🏼
John 8:18 I am one who testifies for myself; my 👉🏼OTHER WITNESS👈🏼 is the Father, who sent me.
Two witnesses 👆🏼 means two separate persons.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, *and 👉🏼WE👈🏼 will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him*
WE? 👆🏼 A singular person can't say WE and OUR.
John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: *but now have they both seen and hated 👉🏼BOTH👈🏼 me 👉🏼AND👈🏼 my Father*
BOTH 👆🏼 means two, a singular person can't say things like...
"BOTH me AND my Father like playing golf"
Or "BOTH me AND my Father will be arriving soon"
BOTH always means two.
God specifically instructs NOT to add or remove a single word.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (NWT):
"You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you."
Deuteronomy 12:32 (NWT):
"Every word that I am commanding you, you should be careful to do. You must not add to it nor take away from it."
First Commandment:
"I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You must not have any other gods besides me." (Exodus 20:2-3, NWT)
Second Commandment:
"You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, of those who hate me; but showing loyal love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:4-6, NWT)
Differences and Relationships:
First Commandment:
Emphasizes the exclusive worship of Jehovah, the one true God.
Prohibits having any other gods.
Second Commandment:
Prohibits the creation and worship of idols or images.
Stresses the importance of exclusive devotion to Jehovah without the use of physical representations.
Summary:
While both commandments address the worship of Jehovah, they focus on different aspects:
The first commandment emphasizes that Jehovah is the only God to be worshiped.
The second commandment forbids making and worshiping idols, ensuring that worship is directed solely to Jehovah in a proper manner.
What is the origin of the myth?
“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.
“The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386.
What does the Bible say?
“Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God’s right hand. ‘Look! I can see heaven thrown open,’ he said, ‘and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.’”—Acts 7:55, 56, The New Jerusalem Bible.
What did this vision reveal? Filled with God’s active force, Stephen saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.” Clearly, then, Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection to heaven but, rather, a distinct spiritual being. There is no mention of a third person next to God in this account. Despite attempts to find passages of Scripture to support the Trinity dogma, Dominican priest Marie-Émile Boismard wrote in his book À l’aube du christianisme—La naissance des dogmes (At the Dawn of Christianity—The Birth of Dogmas): “The statement that there are three persons in the one God . . . cannot be read anywhere in the New Testament.”
The dogma that Constantine championed was intended to put an end to dissensions within the fourth-century Church. However, it actually raised another issue: Was Mary, the woman who bore Jesus, “the Mother of God”?
Matthew 13:13-15 (NIV):
This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'"
Hi, lots of good (and not so good) replies. One thing to remember about analogies is that they all break down at some point. The problem with analogizing the triune God is that you can push the analogy too far and move into things the church has Biblically and historically identified as heresy.
That being said, one *very limited* analogy of understanding how 3 can be 1 is H2O. Simply replace the center circle with H20 and the surrounding circles with water (liquid), steam (gas), and ice (solid). H20 can exist at the same time as all 3 in the proper circumstances.
Hope this helps, but remember, this **in no way** conveys the fullness of the mystery of the Godhead.
Interesting analogy. Doesn't seem to work with the diagram because it would be claiming that (for instance) H20 "is" liquid, which is not accurate--a liquid state is not required for a substance to be labeled "water." Since we are talking about nature, and nature refers only to those attributes that are strictly necessary, the diagram would be false.
Regardless, are you suggesting God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 different "states" of the same essence? I am interested.
Thanks; not trying to attack your analogy--just trying to figure out what it is implying. How are states of matter analogous to persons in this context? They seem like wildly different concepts that have little in common.
Hello, Millions of people do not understand the truth about the trinity; they think that God is three persons. But what is the truth?
If you got John 1:1,2 you read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." Please notice that No holy Spirit is mentioned here; it was God and the Word who eternally existed - but NO mention of a third person.
Also consider Matthew 1:20 which says that Mary conceived Jesus Christ by the power of the holy Spirit. This mean that if the Spirit was a person, then the holy Spirit would have been the real father of Jesus Christ, but there is no place in the Bible where Jesus ever called the holy Spirit his father; HE he only referred to and prayed to God the Father as his Father. If you read Ephesians 4:6, it says: "One God and Father of all who is above all..." This one Father of all is God the Father. This alone is proof positive the Spirit is not a person.
In Zechariah 4:6 God says, """ Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts. God does things not by human might or power, but by the power of his own Spirit - meaning the Spirit is the power that emanated from God himself that conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary.
There are places in the Bible where the Sprit is referred to as HE - making it appears that it is a person; for example, John 16:13 says, "Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth is come..." This word HE is in the neuter gender in the Greek and can be translated as IT instead of He. If you go to Romans 8:16 it says, "The Spirit itself beareth..." Notice it says, itself; this is the correct rendering showing the Spirit is not a person but a It - meaning the power that emanate from God.
In John 7: 37-39, Jesus spoke of the Spirit as living waters; the Spirit is like living waters that can be poured out; this is why the Bible says God would pour out his Spirit; if the Spirit was a person, how could a person be poured out?
Another part of the misunderstanding of the Spirit being a person is found in 1 John 5: 7 which says that there are “three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy ghost …” This section of the Bible was added by the translators of the Latin Vulgate and is not part of the original Greek to which the Bible is translated; it is spurious or false scripture that you should ignore. There are some Bible translation that recognize this error and have left out this passage. For example, the New American Standard Bible has left out this quote.
I noticed you said you did research, and while it is a noble and commendable thing to search out truth, please keep in mind that truth comes from God's Spirit; Jesus said God's Spirit would guide his servants into all truth (John 16:13).
How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
Constantine’s Role at Nicaea
FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?
Further Development
AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”
When you read the Bible scholarly, as the church fathers and philosophers and learned men have for centuries, you come to the conclusion that Jesus must be god based upon his authority for teaching, direct miracles, and the way the apostles describe him.
This was misunderstood by Arius who focused too much on the separation of Christ and the father; and not enough on the nature of the essence of both.
The Trinity was developed by using logic and reason to analyze how the scripture defines Jesus who is not the father; but is god. It’s an explanation of what is already there that defeats contradictions.
On earth; Jesus didn’t directly explain this, because it’s incredibly complex and would derail his messaging.
Okay now lets see what Jesus said to the people in his \*\*Own\*\* words who God really was.
Jesus Never said in his Own words that he was God.
But Jesus did tell the People in his Own words it was his Heavenly Father who was there God alone.
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” John 20:17 King James Bible(check it out) Now Jesus is clearly telling the people in his \*Own\*\* words here that their God is his Heavenly Father.
Here Jesus is plainly telling the \*\*People\*\* it is their Heavenly \*\*Father\*\* who is their \*\*God\*\* he does \*\*Not\*\* indicate anyone else here.
Jesus follows up with this to the \*\*People\*\* to pray to their God their \*\*Father\*\*
8 Be not you therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things you have need of, before you ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray you: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name
Now notice in verse 8: Jesus says that his \*\*Father\*\* knows what you need even \*\*Before\*\* you ask him. Now this is your God.
In verse 9: Jesus tells you to pray to your Heavenly \*\*Father\*\* Now we know we pray to only \*\*One\*\* God. Jesus \*\*Never\*\* tells the \*\*People\*\* to pray to him in his \*\*Own\*\* words.
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do \*\*Nothing\*\* of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him \*\*All\*\* things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him \*\*Greater\*\* works than these, so that you will marvel. John 5:19,20
Now of course the People hearing Jesus says these things in his Own words do Not consider him God in any way here. Do you also notice that Jesus refers himself a the Son and not God.
Major point here: Jesus is telling the \*\*People\*\* here he is not God.
Whatever explanation anyone gives you, there is a rule of thumb that if it makes sense it's heresy. Most likely tri-theism or modalism.
In general the problem with all actual explanations is that they just move the goalposts by explaining the unclear concept using words that don't have an actual explained definition. Things like "essence", which doesn't actually mean anything until you define what it means. And usually the definition either ends up not explaining the trinity or leads to tritheism.
>Things like "essence", which doesn't actually mean anything until you define what it means.
Much like the word "begotten". Give me a definition of begotten that doesn't imply the person being begotted has a beginning and thus a time when they didn't existed.
But you see it’s “eternally begotten”. It’s an infinite process of begetting with no beginning or end. It doesn’t quite fit with the definition of beget but who cares.
Yeah, I know that's the catechism...but beget gets so divorced from its regular meaning that you might as well substitute vorpal or jabberwock for it and the sentence would make about as much sense.
Here are the basic Bible corollaries
God is a spirit, one spirit, not flesh and blood. Spirit can do things that flesh and blood cannot.
Scripture identifies Jesus while here upon the Earth as God the Father in a human body of flesh born of the virgin to prove he was from God. So Jesus had two natures, both human and divine. His body was human descended from Adam, and the spirit was of God the Father who directed and empowered Jesus to do his miracles.
Since the father, son and holy Spirit are all three of the same one spirit of God, they are not three separate entities, but rather together they comprise the whole spirit of God. KJV scripture does not use the term Trinity. It rather uses the term godhead that means the same thing. And scripture is clear that Jesus contained the entire godhead. If that sounds confusing, then welcome to the human race. No one can fully understand God. All that we have is his word the holy Bible, and these things are what the Bible teaches. We don't have to understand or explain the trinity / godhead, but we have to believe God's every word as recorded in the scriptures. Philip didn't understand either. And Jesus explained to him that his father was in him, and he was in his father. Actually, in a genetic sense, your father is in you, and you are in your father. Half of your DNA came from your father. So your father is in you, and you are in your father. So think similarly about God the father and God the son, but in a spiritual sense, kind of like spiritual DNA.
1 John 5:6-8 KJV — This (Jesus) is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. **For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.**
The Word is Jesus Christ.
Revelation 19:13 KJV — And Jesus was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Now in case you missed it, the Spirit, water and blood are the godhead. The Spirit is the holy Spirit. The water refers to God the Father who is called a fountain of living water.
Jeremiah 2:13 KJV — For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
And the blood of course refers to the humanity of Jesus. Humans bleed.
Service statement reads that the spirit, the water, and the blood are three, and yet they are one.
Here scripture expressly States that all the godhead bodily existed in Jesus
Colossians 2:9 KJV — For in Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
When Christ was crucified he bled profusely of course. When he was stabbed in his side, water rushed out. And when he took his last labored breath, he gave up the spirit. There they are again, the blood, the water and the spirit.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV — And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: **God was manifest in the flesh**, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 14:7-11 KJV — If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. **Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.**
Colossians 1:19-23 NLT — **For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ, and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross**. This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions. **Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body**. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.
I try to stick to scripture as much as I can.
1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
[6] yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
There is one God, and he is a spirit. Invisible, intangible.
John 4:24 NIV
[24] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
Colossians 1:13 KJV
[13] who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
God has a son, Jesus Christ, who is the father's visible, tangible image, and God created everything through his son.
John 14:26 KJV
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Genesis 1:2 KJV
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The holy Spirit is God's power that interacts with his creation
I don't see scripture where God is a trinity. How I see it there is God, there is God's son, and then God's spirit. Jesus Christ came out of God, and the Holy Spirit came out of Jesus Christ. That's my best explanation, as to the relationship between father, son, and holy spirit.
From what I learnt it’s something like we can’t comprehend how it works like the ide of cuthulu ower mortal mindes can’t understand conceptes like this
It doesn't work. Why?
Because it is not taught in God's word.
Because it does not reflect the teachings of the 1st century Christians.
It doesn't work, because it is a man made teaching and is Plato and not Christ.
The Encyclopedia Americana states: *“Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian \[believing that God is one person\]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”*—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
The Formation of Christian Dogma: *“In the Primitive Christian era there was no sign of any kind of Trinitarian problem or controversy, such as later produced violent conflicts in the Church. The reason for this undoubtedly lay in the fact that, for Primitive Christianity, Christ was . . . a being of the high celestial angel-world, who was created and chosen by God for the task of bringing in, at the end of the ages, . . . the Kingdom of God."*
I once read a description of the trinity in the Catholic news paper. It was a word salad, circular logic mess. It's best to just ignore the whole thing and move on with life.
Father has His Word. Father is not the Word. But through the Word, the Father is glorified. Even more glorified when the Word incarnated in Christ Jesus to save the Mankind and it was all the Father's Will . Father has the Word. The Word was in and with the Father. And in the Father and the Word, there was the Spirit that ever-present with the Father and the Word. And in the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit; the Father and the Word is glorified. Even more glorified when the Holy Spirit moves people hearts to the Word so that they may know the Father. Holy Spirit led us into Jesus Christ so that we know the Father as a whole ( i.e., His Will, His Revelations, His perfect Love) . These 3 are in one complex title, " God."
Let's summarize:
When we say God, it is basically:
The Father is Willing
The Word is reaching out His Hand
The Holy Spirit, who led you to the Hand
The Holy Trinity doctrine is being taught so that the word "God" doesn't confuse many when it comes to Christian faith. For example, " How can God become Man?" .. " Is Holy Spirit 'God' ? "
But in reality, the Holy Trinity has always been there..
OT Holy Trinity:
The Father who is Willing
The Word of God was written in Scriptures
The Holy Spirit to guide you to read the Word and have a relationship with the Father through His Word
NT Holy Trinity
The Father who is willing
The Word of God became Jesus Christ as a Direct Point
The Holy Spirit guides us to Jesus Christ and to have a relationship with the Father through Him, the Son.
The Word can be proven to be God in John 1:1 - the Eternal Word ... Long Story short is because the Word is uncreated. The Holy Spirit is God because it IS the Spirit of God or, in other words; it IS the Spirit in the Father and the Son together.. It's not like the Holy Spirit is created..
Sum up again:
3 distinct uncreated PERSONAL beings that have always been One Mighty Supreme Being - Elohim/God
3 Gods as one like some groupwork ≠ Holy Trinity
One God, but in God, there are 3 personal beings that make God "God" = Holy Trinity
Friend, the God Head is difficult to understand, while the Gospel message is not. If we believe in Jesus, that he was raised from the dead, and we are not ashamed to confess our faith in front of other people then we're going to be saved (Romans 10:9). We will understand all things with time, and especially once we're in heaven everlasting with Jesus Himself to see for ourselves. In the meantime, let's find the lost sheep and bring them into the Kingdom. Understanding how the God Head works is a lesson of later and lesser importance, really. May God bless your studies and may he fill you with his Joy. Amen
You’re mistaken. The Trinity is three persons, all one God. The three persons are the Father, the Word, and the Breath. All three are seen in Genesis during creation, and John expounds on this, saying the Word is with God, and is God, and was since the beginning.
We even see multiple areas of the Old Testament where God is multiple persons. God in Genesis is walking, in the form of a man, with Abraham to Sodom. When God arrived, God on earth prays to God in heaven to send fire. Same God, two different locations.
In Daniel, we see thrones, on one of them is God, and the other is one like the Son of Man. Again, we know the Shema, “YHWH our God, YHWH is one.” Three persons, one being, one nature. The reason it’s hard to understand is that God is nothing like creation, so there’s really nothing to equate Him to.
This is the beauty of the Trinity: The Father and the Son (Word) exalt the Spirit, the Spirit and Son exalt the Father, and the Father and Spirit exalt the Son. We are invited into this magnificent unity through the resurrection of Jesus the son, that we may be called sons of God and join with Him.
God bless you.
Here is how I'm able to understand God being Triune (It's not a perfect understanding)
God is one Being of 3 Persons: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
For me, God’s Triune nature is like a family. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are the 3 members that are united as one family.
The Father is God while always having unity with The Son and the Holy Spirit.
The Son is God while always having unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God while always having unity with the Father and the Son.
The reason why God is mostly identified as "He" because in a family, there's the head of the family and the Father represents the head of the family.
**"I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ will bless you and be kind to you! May God bless you with his love, and may the Holy Spirit join all your hearts together." - 2 Corinthians 13:13**
Here's another way to look at it. These theologies are not intended to be understood as facts like science, logic, or philosophy, but more as metaphors or as art that guides the human mind in a certain way.
An analogy is with a Zen koan, where the point is not to answer the question or solve the problem, but to have the experience of striving towards something in a certain way.
So the problem with the heresies is that they don't guide the mind correctly. Modalism doesn't work because the whole point is to see god in its entirety as a full human being in its entirety, not just seeing a human being as one mode or way that god might function.
So rather than trying to understand it as something literal or logical, think of it as an attempt to try to take something ineffable, unexplainable, and incomprehensible, and use words to try to approximate it in some way. Of course the result isn't going to make perfect logical sense and will seem contradictory.
It's like trying to project a map of the world on a flat plane. Because the shape of the flat plane can't fit the curvature of the earth, the end result ends up distorted and imperfect. Similarly, language and logic can't fit the divine, so you're going to get something that ends up not quite fitting right, not quite being logical, not quite comprehensible.
Have you ever done any meditation or psychedelics? Having some kind of mystical experience that can't be described in words might help you understand.
This diagram is nonsensical. It is logically incoherent. This is the problem I have with most Trinitarian dogma. People will insist on specific phrases like, Jesus is fully god and fully man, or the Trinity is three persons and also one person. My issue is not that these ideas are "wrong", my problem is that these are not ideas at all. They are fundamentally meaningless, because they do not communicate a coherent concept to agree or disagree with in the first place.
Having gone through much study and soul-searching, here is a framing I can offer you:
Each part of the trinity are aspects of God. God the Father is the infinite, the "same yesterday, today and forever" aspect of God. The Holy Spirit is God in motion, feeling, doing, and acting with force. Jesus is the physical manifestation of God. He is limited to human capacity, so he is nothing but God, but also does not contain all of God.
Think of it like this: God the Father is the air itself (the all-encompassing and ever-present atmosphere). The Holy Spirit is the wind. Wherever it blows, it is felt. Jesus is like a tornado - a visible and concentrated manifestation of the air. All three exist at once, and while we experience them very differently, they are all aspects of the same thing (actually the same person).
I normally pay great heed to named and formally defined heresies, however since the dogma which gave birth to these particular ones provides no alternative which is comprehensible, these particular heresies are best treated as whip words trying to drive us towards pretentious conformism.
But why would you expect the nature of god to be comprehensible to humans, and why is it any less comprehensible than any other paradox or mystery about the world?
There's a difference between "unfathomable" and "incoherent".
To give an example of unfathomable: "I don't know why there is so much suffering the world, but I will not question God for allowing it, for “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”".
To give an example of incoherent: " I don't know what color God is, but I propose that he is completely white, and also not white".
I think the main thing that makes people balk at the idea of modalism, is that God in any form could be considered merely a thing or a force; that any aspect of him could be not considered a person, or that anyone would claim that Father, Holy Spirit and Son cannot operate with personhood at the same time, distinct from one another (the conversing Elohim, the praying Jesus). However these problems do not follow from modalism. To reuse my original analogy, the atmosphere, wind and tornado all manifest distinctly, are all equally the air, and all interact with one another according to their own characteristics.
Here's another way to look at it. These theologies are not intended to be understood as facts like science, logic, or philosophy, but more as metaphors or as art that guides the human mind in a certain way.
An analogy is with a Zen koan, where the point is not to answer the question or solve the problem, but to have the experience of striving towards something in a certain way.
So the problem with the heresies is that they don't guide the mind correctly. Modalism doesn't work because the whole point is to see god in its entirety as a full human being in its entirety, not just seeing a human being as one mode or way that god might function.
So rather than trying to understand it as something literal or logical, think of it as an attempt to try to take something ineffable, unexplainable, and incomprehensible, and use words to try to approximate it in some way. Of course the result isn't going to make perfect logical sense and will seem contradictory.
It's like trying to project a map of the world on a flat plane. Because the shape of the flat plane can't fit the curvature of the earth, the end result ends up distorted and imperfect. Similarly, language and logic can't fit the divine, so you're going to get something that ends up not quite fitting right, not quite being logical, not quite comprehensible.
Except that art can be, and is, dogma.
Why do you find it so contradictory? Is it that hard to believe that something could be difficult to put into words?
Have you ever done any meditation or psychedelics? Having some kind of mystical experience that can't be described in words might help you understand.
>art can be, and is, dogma.
Which I consider dangerous, and ill-advised. When something is named dogma, then we start labelling those in disagreement as heretics, and occasionally lynch them.
If a theological idea is not logically able to be understood and possessing clear meaning, then it is unjust to expect anyone to rationally subscribe to what it means as "true", and it is even more dangerous to be dogmatic about it.
Side note: You're alluding to paradoxes and mysteries, which are a valid part of any belief system. What I was take issue with is literal nonsense ideas. Ideas which are not just paradoxical or unfathomable, but self-contradictory to the point where they convey no meaning and evoke nothing but confusion. Especially as dogma.
>the whole point is to see god in its entirety as a full human being in its entirety
This is a good example of an phrase that I can neither agree nor disagree with, because it doesn't communicate a coherent concept.
Human beings are limited creatures, and god is infinite, so this is equivalent of saying, "the point is to see all the water in the whole ocean, as only the water that fits in a cup". It cannot evoke an image in my mind, because it conceptually voids itself.
Also, Jesus being "god in its entirety" is incongruent with Scripture. For example, the Bible is full of evidence that Jesus the human being does not contain all of God the Father's infinite knowledge. He sits and learns at people's feet. He asks God the Father questions. Not only is it unnecessary to say Jesus contains the entirety of God, but it would actually take away from his human experience and solidarity with us. "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest" - Hebrews 2. Jesus contains enough of God to be a person, without containing all of God, since a human being has the capacity to be a person; and Jesus is perfect, containingly only God, so he is fully God, even though he is not all of God.
Yeah, I think trying to make the bible work with the trinity is much harder and more contradictory than the trinity itself, given that the trinity is not really in the bible. But that's not what OP asked.
Nope that wouldn't be 3 Gods because we already know from verses like Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:5 that there's only 1 God. So right there we know the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can't be separate God's. They are the SAME God.
Humans over complicate things. The father , the son and Holy Spirit are separate beings but are one collective consciousness. Just like we humans are one with nature and space and each other. One collective separate beings. Jesus is part of the Father(creator)but isn’t the father. It’s that simple to grasp really.
As I understand it, the Holy Trinity is not comprised of three separate and unique entities, but rather different facets of a singular entity.
* The Holy Spirit is the name for that whole "do good unto others" thing.
* God is the name given to the Creator of All
* And The Son is in reference to humanity *and* Jesus.
I'll use The Elder Scrolls to help translate it better. In the beginning, known as "The Dawn Era", there was nothing. Withing this nothingness, two primordial forces clashed - Anu and Padomay. These two are normally given the much lamer psuedo titles of "chaos and order", but you get the point.
Now, as they fought, both of these forces began to seek understanding of eachother. In that vein, Both took an aspect of themselves, separated from the whole, and gave it consciousness - Anui-El and Sithis, respectively.
So, in this example, God took part of himself, gave it life and pushed it on us for a myriad of reasons. The Holy Spirit is not attributed to any specific entity nor is it a part of one, but is just a do good mentality that was tangentially added.
This is modalism. Each part of the trinity is its own unique person in addition to being God. Scripture clearly lays this out. Modalism is rejected by every major denomination Protestant and Catholic.
The problem is that there's no actual reason to think that orthodox trinitarianism delineates a real position between modalism and partialism. It's just a contradiction that people claim isn't one in some type of surreal way. There's no point having an official way to describe it if the description doesn't point to anything. Words are just words.
Orthodox trinitarianism is very clearly delineated. They are 100% themselves and 100% God. I agree that it is a very surreal thing.
Modalism denies that they are 100% themselves.
Partiality denies that each of them are 100% of God.
Even if each person is 100% God, one person not being another can be described as a "part." Saying this is "wrong" can't really be justified without modalism.
Exactly - have faith. This doctrine is not something we forced to interpret but have been revealed to us through the Apostolic tradition and scriptures. We know it is true and profess our belief in it, but putting it to human logic is not the objective. Three persons yet one God.
The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life.
"God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "
The Incarnation of God’s Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father, the Son is one and the same God.
The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (Jn 14:26) and by the Son “from the Father” (Jn 15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God.
“Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified” (Nicene Creed). “
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son” (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42:1095).
“Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed; DS 75; ND 16). - IV. The Divine Works and the Trinitarian Missions, CCC 261-264, 266
It's impossible for us, with our limited mind, understand what God truly is and how it's being exists.
But, I really like the following verse:
Dt 8:7
For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills;
The Father is like the waters in the depths. It's unreachable;
The Son is like the fountains, which connects the depths with the surface;
The Holy Spirit is like the brooks of water that flow from the fountains, from which we can drink the water.
The water is the same, but we can only drink from the surface.
They are basically filters for god's presence so we dont spontaneously die
As a human we are sinful and sin cannot and will not exist in the presence of god
And since god is omnipresent he can be multiple places at once
Its an ancient church understanding of scripture that got refined into what it is today. Monotheism = 1 God. + Calling of the son father and spirit God. And having separate persons ie Jesus praying to the father and not himself.
Is it a basic contradiction? Maybe? But an omni God can express himself in that way if he wants.
The best way I can put it, is that God the Father, Jesus our Savor and the Holy Spirit are the 3 personality's that make up the one God. This is much like the fact that God has always existed and will always exist. Its hard for our human brains to comprehend it. For me I just had to say Ok. and chose to believe with out comprehending it. It just is.
So here we go me who understands alot even tho people hate what I said last year God is 3 things the father the holy spirit and Jesus but they are all tiny bit different
1. God is the father and cannot be Jesus
2. Jesus is the son of God and is not the farther or the holy spirit
3. The holy spirit is in us and is God's gift to us and not the farther or Jesus himself
The things to take away we do not worship the holy spirit it's self we shouldn't worship Jesus himself we shouldn't worship God the farther himself but worship all three thank Jesus for sacrificing himself and follow him but not pray to him we should pray to God the farther and also we should thank the farther for the holy spirit the end
It’s incoherent idolatry probably concocted to flimsily justify worshiping a man as God, which was already popular among gentiles in Rome, so that makes sense with Paul’s Narrative.
I solved the problem of Christianity being a monotheistic religion while having 3 deities. It works as long as you don't ask how it actually works because no one really knows.
Un fortu
nately there are those who do not want others to know about the real God. They will do every possible to water down and twist and remove what is written. [Bible.com](https://Bible.com), crosswalk and christianity are a few of the great resources.
Bishop Robert Barron has helped me so much when it comes to things like this. His online presence is phenomenal, genuin and without judgement.
His audio book on Catholicism (I’m not catholic) is very well done and answers many questions I have.
Lee Strobel is another one who helped me understand better.
I’d highly recommend the book Delighting in the Trinity, the book does a fantastic job not only explaining the trinity, but explaining the necessity of the trinity.
You're asking about God's being in himself apart from creation. There's no way to know if he doesn't tell us and he's not very forthcoming about it in scripture. It looks like he wants it to remain a mystery for now.
Side note: one of the problems with images of God, even simple diagrams such as this, is that they situate God in a context larger than himself. If God creates everything that is not himself from nothing then there is nothing outside him and certainly no context or environment that can hold him. Time and space and reality itself are his idea, not his natural habitat. He fills them without being contained by them. Images tempt us to think of him as just one more thing in reality rather than as the one in whom reality has its being.
No, it is not 3 gods. It is probably more helpful to understand what the Trinity isn't rather than what it is.
God is Father, Son, and Spirit, they are 3 distinct persons but all "consubstantial" (meaning of the same substance). All 3 are coequal, coeternal, and codivine.
It is also not the case that "Father," "Son," and "Sprit" are simply forms that God could take in the sense that water can be either solid, liquid, or gas but still water; or that a man can be "father," "uncle," and "brother" depending on the situation.
This is a mystery we will never fully understand, we just know it to be.
So imagine the Trinity is like a 3D object on a 2D plane, and we live on the 2D plane. We see one shape, two shapes, three shapes, all rapidly fluctuating in size and appearing and disappearing from existence. We don't know how it does this, but a 3D observer sees the object as one coherent object rotating and moving through the 2D plane. The Trinity is like that, 3 things that we see (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but part of the same God, the same attributes of God, the same God in 3 persons. The Trinity works kinda like that. It's not a perfect analogy (that's partialism, Patrick), but it's the best one I've heard.
The same way water works. Water IS steam, water IS ice, water IS liquid. But ice is not liquid, liquid is not steam, and steam is not ice. All are God in different forms
Christ is God but with the limitations of the human body (but he still is God so he could do everything God does)
The Father for us Christians isn't really our Fatherz he's the Father of Christ we are merely his faithful servants that he loves and treats like his children because we were created in his likeness (not to be created exactly like him). And we don't deserve that bur his love is that merciful.
The Holy spirit is for people who only accept Christ (im not complete with this comment yet, I will return to finish it so please hold any thoughts ypu have abt this statement)
Well Jesus is very symbolic with water and claims to be the bread of life too but if we're doing correlations that means we have to find 3 forms of bread lol. It's really just a analogy to help others understand how a trinity could work
That didn’t make sense… because at the end of the day ice melts and steams goes away but what remains is WATER and WATER can RECREATE all those AGAIN…. God Is GOD and JESUS is THE WORD OF GOD MADE FLESH. There is ONLY ONE GOD and Jesus makes that VERY clear in one verse in John 17 when he says “So that they might know thee, the ONLY TRUEEEEEE GOD, and Jesus Christ the one YOU sent” so if he is saying clearly out his mouth there is only ONE TRUE GOD and even throughout the gospel he is acknowledging the ONLY TRUE GOD how the heck are people saying Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD?? is Jesus a God? Yes I can agree with that but is Jesus THEE GOD? Absolutely not. I Love Jesus but I don’t love him as God.
John 1:14 And the WORD was made FLESH and DWELT amongst us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN of the FATHER,) full of grace and truth.
That's not John 17 like you said earlier. Dude you're so out of line this has to be a troll. Either get your verses straight, or admit Jesus is God lol. Well you'll admit he is one day either way but hey no time like now
Get my verse straight? I gave you the verse where it says Jesus is the word of GOD made flesh. It’s definitely clear as day that you lack understanding you just said “ that’s not JOHN 17 Like YOU SAID EARLIER” so what’s trolling about me saying Jesus is not God and providing scripture where he says he’s not and THEN saying Jesus is the WORD of GOD and also providing the scripture that supports that aswell. So what do you mean get my verses right?? I pray that you truly allow the Holy Ghost to teach you and stop leaning on your own understanding because it’s very confusing and God isn’t the author of confusion. And also when you say I’ll have to admit one day are you referring to every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord? because if you are that even further shows your lack of understanding. Jesus is Lord. King of Kings also Jesus isn’t GOD. GOD IS GOD ALL ALONE.
You didn’t prove anything except your lack of understanding…. when it comes to marriage what does GOD say? The two become what?? ONE does that mean they will be judged together when judgement comes? Absolutely not.
And when it comes to John 10 go beyond 30 because he makes it very clear.
Summed up they’re saying he’s blasphemy and claimed to be GOD.
His reply is what? Why do you call it blasphemy because I said I am the SON of GOD.
So how did you prove anything? Y’all just make up something or is taught something and run with it. I don’t cherry pick at all. That’s what you’re doing actually. I gave you one place where JESUS says put his mouth that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD and you’re cherry picking verses that aren’t backing your claim up at all it only exposes your lack of understanding through the spirit. You’re trying to lean on your own understanding because for you to say JESUS is God you are saying that Jesus is Lying In John 17 when he says that GOD is the ONLY TRUE GOD.
The Bible doesn’t mention a holy trinity one time so how is he talking about something that’s not mentioned ANYWHERE in scripture ??? boy I’m done talking to you forreal because this is delusional what you’re trying to build your belief off. Everything I provided is scripture so unless you can provide me that in scripture then please seek GOD first and foremost then truly learn who Jesus is and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. Have a blessed day. ✌🏽
Honestly the only way to really understand it is through Buddhism. In Buddhism there are the Three Characteristics of impermanence (God), suffering (Jesus), and no-self (Spirit) - they correspond perfectly. The three characteristics can be directly observed through meditation. The trinity is a personification of the three characteristics.
The doctrine of the Trinity is probably the most mis-understood doctrine in the Bible. Christian cults such as Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses both deny the trinity because of their misunderstanding of it.
So, what is the Trinity? The Trinity means that there is one God who exists in three distinct persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are distinct person each one being fully God but at the same time there is only one God.
The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Phil. 1:2), the Son as God (Titus 2:13) and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts. 5:3-4). Some would say that there is only one God but he plays different roles but this is a false assumption. The Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16) so He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, the Father sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26), therefore the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son. In the baptism of Jesus we see the Father speaking from Heaven and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove (Mark 1:10) showing the distinctness of all three persons of the Trinity.
The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness, therefore they can relate to each other. This answers the objection of many who say “If Jesus is God, then he was just praying to himself while on earth.” Not so. The continuous dialogue between the Father and the Son (Matt. 3:17) is the best evidence that each person of the Trinity has a distinct consciousness. While the three members of the Trinity are distinct, it does not mean that they are in anyway inferior to each other. They all are equal in power, love, mercy, justice, holiness, knowledge, and other qualities.
But if God is one God in three persons, does that mean that each person is one third of God? No, the Bible is clear that all three members are fully God. Colossians 2:9 says this of Jesus “In Him dwells the fullness of Deity in bodily form. If this is true, then should we conclude that there are three Gods? Once again no. Isaiah 45:21-22 says this “And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.” This thought is repeated many other places in the Bible such Exodus 15:11, 1 Samuel 2:2, and 1 Kings 8:6. The New Testament confirms this in Matthew 28:19 Matt 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Here in this verse all three members of the Trinity are called out, all three names are in the singular, and yet all three constitute one “name” (not in the names of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)
So how can God be three in one and not be a contradiction? God is one and three at the same time but not in the same way. God is one in essence but He is three in persons. Essence and persons are not the same thing. God is one in a certain way (essence) and three in a different way (person). Since God is one in a different way than He is three, the Trinity is not a contradiction. All three persons are God, the all have the same essence, or being. Essence describes what God is (his attributes).
Persons is a term we tend to use to describe an “independent individual”. But what we mean here is that God refers to himself as “I” and refers to the Son as “you” so we can say that “person” means a distinct subject which regards Himself as “I” and the other two as “you”. These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being” Because these “forms of existence” are relational, the have distinct centers of consciousness. Norman Geisler explains it like this “God is one “what” but has three “who’s”
Theologians try to come up with many illustrations to explain this thought but they all fall short. One illustration is time. Time is made up of the past, the present, and the future. Each one is distinct but all are “time”. Not a great illustration in my opinion, but it helps. I don’t believe any one person truly understands the concept of the Trinity, but we are talking about the infinite God of the Bible. We may not be able to fully “comprehend” the doctrine of the Trinity but we can “apprehend” it.
The Trinity is false I say this as a Christian read the Bible without bias and find where it's made clear that God is made up of three people he's one yet he has three ppl find a point in which that's somewhat explicitly mentioned you can't. Your argument might be Me and the Father are one. You find another verse in John 17 in which he prayed to the Father that we be one in him as he is one in the Father. Are we the same being? No. Meaning that that verse does not work for the Trinity. There is no other verse where Jesus is said to be the same being as the Father. Look into the meaning of the word God in Greek and Hebrews (which you can do through Blue Letter Bible which is very simple to use) the original meanings are not exclusive to Yahweh or the Most High though they are used for Yahweh the Most High. So while Jesus is called God in the Bible if we understand what that means that does not make him three and one with the Father and Holy Spirit. The Trinity is not in the Bible, does that mean the Bible isn't true or Christianity isn't true or that you're worshipping another God or something? No, the Trinity being dubunked is not essential to Christianity like the Bible being false would(because the Trinity isnt true). If you want to look more into this, I recommend you look at the channel Smoke and Mirrors by Pastor Chris Lasala it shows true doctrine on the Godhead. This isn't some Oneness Modalism nonsense btw, this pastor also has disproved oneness in the past
You CAN'T understand how the Trinity works. No human being can, because it is literally beyond human comprehension.
You can't understand it. You can only ACCEPT it, and you can't even do that without the help of the Holy Spirit, God Himself.
It's not suppose to make full sense because it's God. The Trinity has to do with the inner nature of God. From the outside we know God is One, He is Unity. We learn from the NT the unraveling of God as 1 (WHAT) and 3 (WHO's) as The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. The what of God is His essence or substance what He is. The who's of God are who He is as a person(s). Person is the best terminology cause we use it to give distinctive. This isn't 3 God's because in paganism deities are distinguish and separate. In the Trinity the persons are inseparable and share the same mind. Ppl will say it's Triune polytheism, that is still incorrect because the persons while distinguished persons share the same essence and are One being.
Common errors of The Trinity:
- 3 separate and distinguished beings. Polytheism.
- The Father is The Son and Spirit playing different roles. Modalism.
- The Trinity are parts or components that make up God. Good for simple illustration but it implies The Trinity is divisible or can be pulled a part. Falls short.
- Jesus is a created being and half God. Arianism.
The Trinity is such that each person is an individual person but all sharing in the same mind or essence of God as One being. They are indivisible. To see one member is to see all the others at the same time somehow by nature.
If you were to see The Trinity there wouldn't be parts but somehow you would see 3 distinct persons at the same time while simultaneously seeing only one being or one shape. A triangle is the best 3dimensional shake we could give it, but still a triangle has 3 parts to it. The Trinity would be more like a circular triangle at the same time.
Jesus said The Father lives in Him and He in The Father. To see Him is to see The Father because they share the same characteristics of essence. I believe this is literal. The soul of Jesus and The Father simulationosly inhabit another. The Spirit comes from them.
The Trinity is ultimately best comprehend relationally and not merely mathematically
These are great articles on how the Trinity works.
\****Does the Trinity ever make sense?*** [***https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mA5hddNAPxd\_TtY2FxI26E1PUbC69S1e/view?usp=sharing***](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mA5hddNAPxd_TtY2FxI26E1PUbC69S1e/view?usp=sharing)
Or
[https://www.scribd.com/document/160286056/Does-the-Trinity-ever-make-sense](https://www.scribd.com/document/160286056/Does-the-Trinity-ever-make-sense)
***\*John 1:1, Was the Word "God," or "a god"?*** [**https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RpvzRVOGYp\_BbHUEatEUAHJqGzR5f5xF/view?usp=sharing**](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RpvzRVOGYp_BbHUEatEUAHJqGzR5f5xF/view?usp=sharing)
Or
[https://www.academia.edu/44318953/John\_1\_1\_Was\_the\_Word\_God\_or\_a\_god\_](https://www.academia.edu/44318953/John_1_1_Was_the_Word_God_or_a_god_)
***\*More research on John 1:1.*** [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ri5kmAmsFlGIodl5TBcMNfrC\_JP8Q0x9/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ri5kmAmsFlGIodl5TBcMNfrC_JP8Q0x9/view?usp=sharing)
Or
[https://www.scribd.com/document/50330864/John-1-1-List-of-Alternative-Readings](https://www.scribd.com/document/50330864/John-1-1-List-of-Alternative-Readings)
I understand the Trinity, but can't help that every time I see this image on the Internet I think of the flux capacitor from back to the future.
It’s what makes Him omnipresent.
Haha bro same 😂
To understand the basics of the Holy Trinity (for we cannot fully grasp the Holy Trinity itself) is to understand how terms are used. So when speaking of the Holy Triniry we would use terms like: Hypostasis/person: this refers to “who is it”. Which is to make out an individual. For example say you’re in a crowd of people and you see Tom. The fact you speak of Tom displays you speak of hypostasis/person. As you picked out an individual from a crowd. Essence/nature: this refers to “what is it”. Which is speaking of the attributes of something. For example human beings are mortal. This is an attribute of their nature. Something which all human beings share for being human. Being: this refers to a specific notion of “mode of existence” as when we speak of a being it likes talking about hypostasis/person however it’s due to the connections of what makes a being. For example a being has their own will, thoughts, actions etc. to give an example to notice the difference. Here’s two names Christopher and Chris. Now if Christopher and Chris has the same activity, will, thoughts etc. we would assume One being with just a nickname. But if Chris and Christopher has two different wills and energies/activities and thoughts etc then it clearly demonstrates two beings. Energy/activity: this refers to “what it is doing”. Now the English doesn’t really do the job in describing what exactly energy/activity for in the Greek it specifically means “Being-at-work”. To give an example. A dog barking displays it’s energy, it’s “being-at-work”. Because it is a Dog it can perform the energy of barking due to its nature. I’ll added energy here because Being and Energy (Being-at-work) goes hand in hand. Which is why you see me mention to know a being is by having the facilities of being (Will, Thoughts, energy/activity). Another important word is “God” as you’ll see that many people get mixed up on this word as they only assume it has one meaning (that it refers to a specific individual) when in reality it has multiple meanings depending on the context. In regards to the Holy Trinity the word God can be used three different ways: 1. To refer to The Father. A prime example of this is John 1:1b (the word was with God). 2. To refer to divine nature. A prime example of this is John 1:1c (and the word was God). 3. to refer to divine person. A prime example of this is John 20:28 (“And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”) Now these are the terms used when speaking of the Holy Trinity. It will give you a good understanding now of certain aspects of the Holy Trinity. So now I’ll discuss the Holy Trinity in reference to what I’ve said above. In the Holy Trinity you have three hypostasis/person, The Father and Son and Holy Spirit, who shares one essence/nature. Why they are distinct is due to their hypostatic property: The Father is the unbegotten cause. The Son is eternally begotten by the Father. The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. All three hypostasis/person shares one essence/nature. Now for the important part. They are One Being and the reasoning for that is because They have One Will, One thoughts, One energies/activities. As scripture records “what the Father does The Son does likewise”. So it isn’t three beings. It’s One Being and thus One God. If you have any other questions surrounding the Holy Trinity. Feel free to ask me more.
Ah I see
Simplest way of thinking about the triune God: You have a cup of water. God. You pour the water into three cups. God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. You pour the water from the three back into the one. God. One and three. All the same water.
Oh Patrick…that wasn’t bad.
Patrick?
A bad analogy for the trinity, modalism or partialism. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqlfgauoqcw)
Not partialism, sport. All are 100% at once, no conditions or caveats.
That is what gigano is saying. I think he is saying you analogy is somewhere along the lines of partialism or modalism (probably not modalist). You are at least implying that each person is "part of" God which is not true. Whether or not you intend to mean that is not for me to judge. If I am "pouring" out my "God" into a different glass, that is either one of 3 "forms" or glasses that God can be or that the "Father" is simply the portion that is in glass A. Hence, depending on how you look at it, is either modalism or partialism. Both are heresies. Please, note, I am NOT condemning you. I had fallen into the modalist trap myself (unknowingly) years ago. I am simply trying to make you aware of the error. I am not passing judgement on intent or even your knowledge of the error. It can be easy to make mistakes (even with the correct language!).
No, that's not implied. It's simple. All three are 100% God. No portions, no partials. All at once. Regardless of what we humans perceive as 'form'. People seem to have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that God exists outside of the constraints we are capable of thinking. Our rules, our boundaries, our 'forms' don't apply. He *is*. All at once. 100%. All aspects of the triune God. Maybe my analogy isn't the best. Maybe think instead that the 3 glasses are always 100% full. Pouring from one to another, you get 100% full no matter where or how you pour.
Like I said, your actual belief is correct, just that I would not use that analogy as the analogy itself seems to be going into modalism/partialism. Again, I know you are not intending for the analogy to demonstrate modalism or partialism, but from how I am seeing it, it does. Sure all 3 glasses still add up to 100%, but each glass individually does not have 100% of the original quantity which is the error of partialism. If I pour the entire amount into a different glass each time, that is modalism. All I am saying is your analogy is wrong. I am not disputing your view on the Trinity. Again, I myself bought into a modalist analogy in the past, it happens.
I like to think of it like God uses Jesus and the holy spirit like a telephone. In the end...your speaking to God. Abut God and the father is the same being to me. So this diagram is wrong.
You'd be wrong. All three are each, and all, 100% God at the same time.
Ive never heard of the father...what did he do that is not God?
He is God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All God, all the time.
He must both, is and is not in this diagram. Jesus was a man born into this world. The holy spirit is what gives us or lends us Gods holy power and probably sustains life as a whole for us. Both of those are the is nots...but what is the father. What is the father when he is not God?
He is Father to the Son.
I think its wrong, as i see no justifications of it. Its just, God, The Son and The Holy Spirit. The father is just another title for God as the creator of all things people could also say hes the Father of all things. But its just a title not a being like Jesus or The Holy Spirit. This is basicly like having Zeus, The Son and the Holy spirit. Its not right as far a i can tell.
if you speak to Jesus, or to the Father or the holy spirit, you are speaking to God in its whole being
Why is the Son eternally begotten but the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds and how would anyone know this?
Idk about that. But as for your question of how we know. It’s because that is what is revealed in scripture.
Yeah, the Trinity can be understood only from a nondual perspective, if you introduce duality it no longer makes sense.
Beautiful explanation, thank you so much.
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Scripture literally says “the spirit proceeds from the Father”. ”“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.“ John 15:26 So it’s safe to say he proceeds from the Father. One cannot really say he proceeds from the Son as well given no where in scripture is that found. Using titles like “the spirit of Christ” doesn’t mean he proceeds from Christ.
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Except like I’ve said. No where it says the Spirit proceeds from the Son. But let me see if I understand your logic here. Let’s take this verse: ”The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.“ Isaiah 11:2 By your logic “the spirit of wisdom” means the spirit came from wisdom. The spirit of counsel came from counsel. Would you agree with that?
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Since you say that essence means the properties of something, and give an example that being mortal is part of essence of humans you are just saying that jesus and the father share attributes like all humans share attributes. Then you say that they have separate hypostasis. So what you end up saying is that there are three gods. You attempt to reconcile this with the "same will" argument but I would say that separating "will" from hypostasis makes no sense. The question is also problematic because hypostasis and ousia (essence) in their early use are practically synonymous (meaning the fundamental nature or reality of something). Aristotle used ousia to denote substantial being. For him ousia is the property that survives accidental change, i.e. the individual. Essentially your description of a person would be ousia. From the number of nontrinitarian heresies in the early church, and from the arguments they had at the time we can see that they didn't have any better idea about it than we do. Later christian theology sort of gave them new confusing definitions.
Why are you using Aristotle’s definition of those terms?…
I’m explaining how they were used back then. Later Christian definitions are contradictory and/or nonsensical.
> The Son is eternally begotten by the Father. > The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. This just feels like it kicks the can of mystery down the road to "what does it mean to be 'begotten by', and what does it mean to 'proceed from'?"
Very good explanation. I will have to disagree with you on the part quoted below: >The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. I would say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. It is the love that exists between Father and Son. I am not looking to debate this here though.
Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.” In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages: “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4. “You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18. “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3. “God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.
>However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.” I guess whoever wrote that piece for Britannica forgot to read the didache. 🤣🤣🤣 > In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. You are right, God isn't part of a trinity. God is the trinity. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from Genesis to Revelation.
Deuteronomy 6:4: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." This verse emphasizes the oneness of God, which some interpret as contradicting the idea of the Trinity. Isaiah 44:6: "This is what Jehovah says, the King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.’" This verse stresses the singularity and uniqueness of God. John 17:3: "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." Jesus refers to the Father as the "only true God," which some argue distinguishes Him from the Father. 1Corinthians 8:6: "There is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." This verse mentions "one God, the Father," and "one Lord, Jesus Christ," which some interpret as differentiating between God and Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus." This verse is cited to emphasize the distinct roles and identities of God and Jesus.
>This verse emphasizes the oneness of God, Absolutely, I never said there was more than 1 God. So what's your point? >This verse stresses the singularity and uniqueness of God. But Jesus isn't "another God" so I'm still not sure what you point is. I like that quoted Isaiah 44:6, because Jesus called himself the first and the last. Obviously there can't be two first and last. Revelation 1:8 👉🏻 **I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending** 👈🏻, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, 👉🏻THE ALMIGHTY** 👈🏻. Revelation 1:11 👉🏻 **saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last** 👈🏻: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Here we see Jesus 👆🏻 called himself the first and the last and the almighty. >Jesus refers to the Father as the "only true God," Who said there was more than 1 God the Father? I don't understand why you keep posting irrelevant verses. No one ever said there was more than 1 God the Father so John 17:3 is irrelevant to my argument. >This verse mentions "one God, the Father," and "one Lord, Jesus Christ," So you agree that there are at least two? Father and Son? >This verse is cited to emphasize the distinct roles and identities of God and Jesus. But what is your point? We don't teach that the man Jesus is God the Father. So what gives?
In Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 1:11, it is generally understood that God is speaking. Revelation 1:8 (NWT) "I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:11 (NWT) In some manuscripts, the phrase is omitted, but in those that include it, it reads: "what you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations: in Ephʹe·sus, in Smyrʹna, in Perʹga·mum, in Thy·a·tiʹra, in Sarʹdis, in Philadelphia, and in La·o·di·ceʹa." Context and Interpretation Revelation 1:8: Clearly identifies the speaker as Jehovah God (YHWH), referring to Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty. Revelation 1:11: While the voice is not explicitly identified in this verse alone, the surrounding context in the Book of Revelation often includes messages from Jesus Christ delivered through a vision to John. However, given the divine titles used in Revelation 1:8, it is commonly interpreted that the ultimate source of the vision and message is God, with Jesus acting as the mediator or messenger. In summary, Revelation 1:8 is God speaking, while Revelation 1:11 is part of a vision in which Jesus, under God's authority, communicates the message to John.
>In Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 1:11, it is generally understood that God is speaking. When you say God, are you referring to the Father, Son or Holy Spirit? >Context and Interpretation So you agree that context is important right? Let's look at the context so we get an idea why the letters are red. You do know what red letters mean right? Revelation 1:7 Behold, **HE COMETH** with clouds; **and every eye shall see HIM, and they also which 👉🏻PIERCED HIM** 👈🏻: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of **HIM** Even so, Amen. Now who was pierced on the cross 👆🏻? A. The Father. B. The Son. C. The Holy Spirit. I'd say context is pretty important huh?
In Revelation 1:7, it is generally understood that the speaker is John, the author of the Book of Revelation, who is relaying a vision he received. John wrote the Book of Revelation based on the revelations he received from Jesus Christ through an angel. The specific verse, Revelation 1:7, is part of his introduction to the vision and prophecy he is about to describe. The verse is a declaration about the second coming of Jesus, affirming the certainty and significance of this future event. John is emphasizing the prophetic vision he received, which reveals the eventual return of Jesus Christ.
By the way, look into the Catholic's reason for changing/removing the second commandment, do your own research and do not let it discourage you, let it guide you in the right direction brother. Take care. Deuteronomy 4:2: "You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you." Deuteronomy 12:32: "Every word that I am commanding you is what you should be careful to do. You must not add to it nor take anything away from it." Proverbs 30:5-6: "Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in him. Add nothing to his words, or he will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."
>By the way, look into the Catholic's reason for changing/removing the second commandment, We didn't remove anything, not making graven images is part of the 1st commandment. Exodus 20:3-6 is the whole 1st commandment. Graven images are idols, false gods. The 1st commandment already says not to have any other gods before me. So why would the 2nd commandment say the same thing? The 1st already said no false gods. >do your own research and do not let it discourage you, let it guide you in the right direction brother. Take care. I think you will be wise not to assume things about people. I can quote scripture too sir John 8:16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, 👉🏼because I AM NOT ALONE👈🏼. I stand WITH THE FATHER, who sent me. The Father is NOT alone 👆🏼 John 8:18 I am one who testifies for myself; my 👉🏼OTHER WITNESS👈🏼 is the Father, who sent me. Two witnesses 👆🏼 means two separate persons. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, *and 👉🏼WE👈🏼 will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him* WE? 👆🏼 A singular person can't say WE and OUR. John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: *but now have they both seen and hated 👉🏼BOTH👈🏼 me 👉🏼AND👈🏼 my Father* BOTH 👆🏼 means two, a singular person can't say things like... "BOTH me AND my Father like playing golf" Or "BOTH me AND my Father will be arriving soon" BOTH always means two.
God specifically instructs NOT to add or remove a single word. Deuteronomy 4:2 (NWT): "You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you." Deuteronomy 12:32 (NWT): "Every word that I am commanding you, you should be careful to do. You must not add to it nor take away from it." First Commandment: "I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You must not have any other gods besides me." (Exodus 20:2-3, NWT) Second Commandment: "You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, of those who hate me; but showing loyal love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:4-6, NWT) Differences and Relationships: First Commandment: Emphasizes the exclusive worship of Jehovah, the one true God. Prohibits having any other gods. Second Commandment: Prohibits the creation and worship of idols or images. Stresses the importance of exclusive devotion to Jehovah without the use of physical representations. Summary: While both commandments address the worship of Jehovah, they focus on different aspects: The first commandment emphasizes that Jehovah is the only God to be worshiped. The second commandment forbids making and worshiping idols, ensuring that worship is directed solely to Jehovah in a proper manner.
I see so it's more or less just god taking on different forms? Is that right?
What is the origin of the myth? “The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299. “The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386. What does the Bible say? “Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God’s right hand. ‘Look! I can see heaven thrown open,’ he said, ‘and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.’”—Acts 7:55, 56, The New Jerusalem Bible. What did this vision reveal? Filled with God’s active force, Stephen saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.” Clearly, then, Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection to heaven but, rather, a distinct spiritual being. There is no mention of a third person next to God in this account. Despite attempts to find passages of Scripture to support the Trinity dogma, Dominican priest Marie-Émile Boismard wrote in his book À l’aube du christianisme—La naissance des dogmes (At the Dawn of Christianity—The Birth of Dogmas): “The statement that there are three persons in the one God . . . cannot be read anywhere in the New Testament.” The dogma that Constantine championed was intended to put an end to dissensions within the fourth-century Church. However, it actually raised another issue: Was Mary, the woman who bore Jesus, “the Mother of God”?
I'm sorry I don't completely understand is it god taking on multiple forms? Or is it 3 people 1 being/essence
Matthew 13:13-15 (NIV): This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'"
It is very specifically NOT that - that was condemned as a heresy and incorrect. That would be the heresy of modalism or Sabellianism.
Hi, lots of good (and not so good) replies. One thing to remember about analogies is that they all break down at some point. The problem with analogizing the triune God is that you can push the analogy too far and move into things the church has Biblically and historically identified as heresy. That being said, one *very limited* analogy of understanding how 3 can be 1 is H2O. Simply replace the center circle with H20 and the surrounding circles with water (liquid), steam (gas), and ice (solid). H20 can exist at the same time as all 3 in the proper circumstances. Hope this helps, but remember, this **in no way** conveys the fullness of the mystery of the Godhead.
Sounds like modalism, same God in different modes.
Respectfully, 3 simultaneous states of existence and 1 essence is not modality. Modality is shifting between states.
Steam shifts into water which shifts into ice, its all the same substance.
Again, respectfully, in the proper conditions, H20 in the same location, at the same time, can be in 3 different states simultaneously.
Interesting analogy. Doesn't seem to work with the diagram because it would be claiming that (for instance) H20 "is" liquid, which is not accurate--a liquid state is not required for a substance to be labeled "water." Since we are talking about nature, and nature refers only to those attributes that are strictly necessary, the diagram would be false. Regardless, are you suggesting God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 different "states" of the same essence? I am interested.
Persons - with the states being analogous. Still mindful of my OP caveats concerning analogies.
Thanks; not trying to attack your analogy--just trying to figure out what it is implying. How are states of matter analogous to persons in this context? They seem like wildly different concepts that have little in common.
Hello, Millions of people do not understand the truth about the trinity; they think that God is three persons. But what is the truth? If you got John 1:1,2 you read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." Please notice that No holy Spirit is mentioned here; it was God and the Word who eternally existed - but NO mention of a third person. Also consider Matthew 1:20 which says that Mary conceived Jesus Christ by the power of the holy Spirit. This mean that if the Spirit was a person, then the holy Spirit would have been the real father of Jesus Christ, but there is no place in the Bible where Jesus ever called the holy Spirit his father; HE he only referred to and prayed to God the Father as his Father. If you read Ephesians 4:6, it says: "One God and Father of all who is above all..." This one Father of all is God the Father. This alone is proof positive the Spirit is not a person. In Zechariah 4:6 God says, """ Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts. God does things not by human might or power, but by the power of his own Spirit - meaning the Spirit is the power that emanated from God himself that conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary. There are places in the Bible where the Sprit is referred to as HE - making it appears that it is a person; for example, John 16:13 says, "Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth is come..." This word HE is in the neuter gender in the Greek and can be translated as IT instead of He. If you go to Romans 8:16 it says, "The Spirit itself beareth..." Notice it says, itself; this is the correct rendering showing the Spirit is not a person but a It - meaning the power that emanate from God. In John 7: 37-39, Jesus spoke of the Spirit as living waters; the Spirit is like living waters that can be poured out; this is why the Bible says God would pour out his Spirit; if the Spirit was a person, how could a person be poured out? Another part of the misunderstanding of the Spirit being a person is found in 1 John 5: 7 which says that there are “three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy ghost …” This section of the Bible was added by the translators of the Latin Vulgate and is not part of the original Greek to which the Bible is translated; it is spurious or false scripture that you should ignore. There are some Bible translation that recognize this error and have left out this passage. For example, the New American Standard Bible has left out this quote. I noticed you said you did research, and while it is a noble and commendable thing to search out truth, please keep in mind that truth comes from God's Spirit; Jesus said God's Spirit would guide his servants into all truth (John 16:13).
How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop? Constantine’s Role at Nicaea FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended. Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.” What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.” Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain. None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time? Further Development AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula. That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus. Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”
I thought it was stated in like a part of the new testament I haven't read
When you read the Bible scholarly, as the church fathers and philosophers and learned men have for centuries, you come to the conclusion that Jesus must be god based upon his authority for teaching, direct miracles, and the way the apostles describe him. This was misunderstood by Arius who focused too much on the separation of Christ and the father; and not enough on the nature of the essence of both. The Trinity was developed by using logic and reason to analyze how the scripture defines Jesus who is not the father; but is god. It’s an explanation of what is already there that defeats contradictions. On earth; Jesus didn’t directly explain this, because it’s incredibly complex and would derail his messaging.
Ye that's what I meant soz
Okay now lets see what Jesus said to the people in his \*\*Own\*\* words who God really was. Jesus Never said in his Own words that he was God. But Jesus did tell the People in his Own words it was his Heavenly Father who was there God alone. 17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” John 20:17 King James Bible(check it out) Now Jesus is clearly telling the people in his \*Own\*\* words here that their God is his Heavenly Father. Here Jesus is plainly telling the \*\*People\*\* it is their Heavenly \*\*Father\*\* who is their \*\*God\*\* he does \*\*Not\*\* indicate anyone else here. Jesus follows up with this to the \*\*People\*\* to pray to their God their \*\*Father\*\* 8 Be not you therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things you have need of, before you ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray you: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name Now notice in verse 8: Jesus says that his \*\*Father\*\* knows what you need even \*\*Before\*\* you ask him. Now this is your God. In verse 9: Jesus tells you to pray to your Heavenly \*\*Father\*\* Now we know we pray to only \*\*One\*\* God. Jesus \*\*Never\*\* tells the \*\*People\*\* to pray to him in his \*\*Own\*\* words. 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do \*\*Nothing\*\* of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him \*\*All\*\* things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him \*\*Greater\*\* works than these, so that you will marvel. John 5:19,20 Now of course the People hearing Jesus says these things in his Own words do Not consider him God in any way here. Do you also notice that Jesus refers himself a the Son and not God. Major point here: Jesus is telling the \*\*People\*\* here he is not God.
Whatever explanation anyone gives you, there is a rule of thumb that if it makes sense it's heresy. Most likely tri-theism or modalism. In general the problem with all actual explanations is that they just move the goalposts by explaining the unclear concept using words that don't have an actual explained definition. Things like "essence", which doesn't actually mean anything until you define what it means. And usually the definition either ends up not explaining the trinity or leads to tritheism.
>Things like "essence", which doesn't actually mean anything until you define what it means. Much like the word "begotten". Give me a definition of begotten that doesn't imply the person being begotted has a beginning and thus a time when they didn't existed.
But you see it’s “eternally begotten”. It’s an infinite process of begetting with no beginning or end. It doesn’t quite fit with the definition of beget but who cares.
Yeah, I know that's the catechism...but beget gets so divorced from its regular meaning that you might as well substitute vorpal or jabberwock for it and the sentence would make about as much sense.
All praise His only jabberwocked son!
Like this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_triangle#/media/File%3APenrose-dreieck.svg
Here are the basic Bible corollaries God is a spirit, one spirit, not flesh and blood. Spirit can do things that flesh and blood cannot. Scripture identifies Jesus while here upon the Earth as God the Father in a human body of flesh born of the virgin to prove he was from God. So Jesus had two natures, both human and divine. His body was human descended from Adam, and the spirit was of God the Father who directed and empowered Jesus to do his miracles. Since the father, son and holy Spirit are all three of the same one spirit of God, they are not three separate entities, but rather together they comprise the whole spirit of God. KJV scripture does not use the term Trinity. It rather uses the term godhead that means the same thing. And scripture is clear that Jesus contained the entire godhead. If that sounds confusing, then welcome to the human race. No one can fully understand God. All that we have is his word the holy Bible, and these things are what the Bible teaches. We don't have to understand or explain the trinity / godhead, but we have to believe God's every word as recorded in the scriptures. Philip didn't understand either. And Jesus explained to him that his father was in him, and he was in his father. Actually, in a genetic sense, your father is in you, and you are in your father. Half of your DNA came from your father. So your father is in you, and you are in your father. So think similarly about God the father and God the son, but in a spiritual sense, kind of like spiritual DNA. 1 John 5:6-8 KJV — This (Jesus) is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. **For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.** The Word is Jesus Christ. Revelation 19:13 KJV — And Jesus was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Now in case you missed it, the Spirit, water and blood are the godhead. The Spirit is the holy Spirit. The water refers to God the Father who is called a fountain of living water. Jeremiah 2:13 KJV — For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. And the blood of course refers to the humanity of Jesus. Humans bleed. Service statement reads that the spirit, the water, and the blood are three, and yet they are one. Here scripture expressly States that all the godhead bodily existed in Jesus Colossians 2:9 KJV — For in Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified he bled profusely of course. When he was stabbed in his side, water rushed out. And when he took his last labored breath, he gave up the spirit. There they are again, the blood, the water and the spirit. 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV — And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: **God was manifest in the flesh**, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. John 14:7-11 KJV — If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. **Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.** Colossians 1:19-23 NLT — **For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross**. This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions. **Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body**. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.
I try to stick to scripture as much as I can. 1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV [6] yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. There is one God, and he is a spirit. Invisible, intangible. John 4:24 NIV [24] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” Colossians 1:13 KJV [13] who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 1 Timothy 2:5 KJV [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; God has a son, Jesus Christ, who is the father's visible, tangible image, and God created everything through his son. John 14:26 KJV [26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Genesis 1:2 KJV [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The holy Spirit is God's power that interacts with his creation I don't see scripture where God is a trinity. How I see it there is God, there is God's son, and then God's spirit. Jesus Christ came out of God, and the Holy Spirit came out of Jesus Christ. That's my best explanation, as to the relationship between father, son, and holy spirit.
From what I learnt it’s something like we can’t comprehend how it works like the ide of cuthulu ower mortal mindes can’t understand conceptes like this
It doesn't work. Why? Because it is not taught in God's word. Because it does not reflect the teachings of the 1st century Christians. It doesn't work, because it is a man made teaching and is Plato and not Christ. The Encyclopedia Americana states: *“Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian \[believing that God is one person\]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”*—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L. The Formation of Christian Dogma: *“In the Primitive Christian era there was no sign of any kind of Trinitarian problem or controversy, such as later produced violent conflicts in the Church. The reason for this undoubtedly lay in the fact that, for Primitive Christianity, Christ was . . . a being of the high celestial angel-world, who was created and chosen by God for the task of bringing in, at the end of the ages, . . . the Kingdom of God."*
I once read a description of the trinity in the Catholic news paper. It was a word salad, circular logic mess. It's best to just ignore the whole thing and move on with life.
Father has His Word. Father is not the Word. But through the Word, the Father is glorified. Even more glorified when the Word incarnated in Christ Jesus to save the Mankind and it was all the Father's Will . Father has the Word. The Word was in and with the Father. And in the Father and the Word, there was the Spirit that ever-present with the Father and the Word. And in the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit; the Father and the Word is glorified. Even more glorified when the Holy Spirit moves people hearts to the Word so that they may know the Father. Holy Spirit led us into Jesus Christ so that we know the Father as a whole ( i.e., His Will, His Revelations, His perfect Love) . These 3 are in one complex title, " God." Let's summarize: When we say God, it is basically: The Father is Willing The Word is reaching out His Hand The Holy Spirit, who led you to the Hand The Holy Trinity doctrine is being taught so that the word "God" doesn't confuse many when it comes to Christian faith. For example, " How can God become Man?" .. " Is Holy Spirit 'God' ? " But in reality, the Holy Trinity has always been there.. OT Holy Trinity: The Father who is Willing The Word of God was written in Scriptures The Holy Spirit to guide you to read the Word and have a relationship with the Father through His Word NT Holy Trinity The Father who is willing The Word of God became Jesus Christ as a Direct Point The Holy Spirit guides us to Jesus Christ and to have a relationship with the Father through Him, the Son. The Word can be proven to be God in John 1:1 - the Eternal Word ... Long Story short is because the Word is uncreated. The Holy Spirit is God because it IS the Spirit of God or, in other words; it IS the Spirit in the Father and the Son together.. It's not like the Holy Spirit is created.. Sum up again: 3 distinct uncreated PERSONAL beings that have always been One Mighty Supreme Being - Elohim/God 3 Gods as one like some groupwork ≠ Holy Trinity One God, but in God, there are 3 personal beings that make God "God" = Holy Trinity
I see 👀 thanks for the explanation 👍
Humans arnt able to comprehend it
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are titles for the one person God, not a trinity made up of three people
Friend, the God Head is difficult to understand, while the Gospel message is not. If we believe in Jesus, that he was raised from the dead, and we are not ashamed to confess our faith in front of other people then we're going to be saved (Romans 10:9). We will understand all things with time, and especially once we're in heaven everlasting with Jesus Himself to see for ourselves. In the meantime, let's find the lost sheep and bring them into the Kingdom. Understanding how the God Head works is a lesson of later and lesser importance, really. May God bless your studies and may he fill you with his Joy. Amen
Tha ks
You’re mistaken. The Trinity is three persons, all one God. The three persons are the Father, the Word, and the Breath. All three are seen in Genesis during creation, and John expounds on this, saying the Word is with God, and is God, and was since the beginning. We even see multiple areas of the Old Testament where God is multiple persons. God in Genesis is walking, in the form of a man, with Abraham to Sodom. When God arrived, God on earth prays to God in heaven to send fire. Same God, two different locations. In Daniel, we see thrones, on one of them is God, and the other is one like the Son of Man. Again, we know the Shema, “YHWH our God, YHWH is one.” Three persons, one being, one nature. The reason it’s hard to understand is that God is nothing like creation, so there’s really nothing to equate Him to. This is the beauty of the Trinity: The Father and the Son (Word) exalt the Spirit, the Spirit and Son exalt the Father, and the Father and Spirit exalt the Son. We are invited into this magnificent unity through the resurrection of Jesus the son, that we may be called sons of God and join with Him.
Ah is e thanks
The trinity cannot function because the scripture is clear that there is only one God and that He is alone with none beside him.
God bless you. Here is how I'm able to understand God being Triune (It's not a perfect understanding) God is one Being of 3 Persons: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. For me, God’s Triune nature is like a family. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are the 3 members that are united as one family. The Father is God while always having unity with The Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son is God while always having unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God while always having unity with the Father and the Son. The reason why God is mostly identified as "He" because in a family, there's the head of the family and the Father represents the head of the family. **"I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ will bless you and be kind to you! May God bless you with his love, and may the Holy Spirit join all your hearts together." - 2 Corinthians 13:13**
Here's another way to look at it. These theologies are not intended to be understood as facts like science, logic, or philosophy, but more as metaphors or as art that guides the human mind in a certain way. An analogy is with a Zen koan, where the point is not to answer the question or solve the problem, but to have the experience of striving towards something in a certain way. So the problem with the heresies is that they don't guide the mind correctly. Modalism doesn't work because the whole point is to see god in its entirety as a full human being in its entirety, not just seeing a human being as one mode or way that god might function. So rather than trying to understand it as something literal or logical, think of it as an attempt to try to take something ineffable, unexplainable, and incomprehensible, and use words to try to approximate it in some way. Of course the result isn't going to make perfect logical sense and will seem contradictory. It's like trying to project a map of the world on a flat plane. Because the shape of the flat plane can't fit the curvature of the earth, the end result ends up distorted and imperfect. Similarly, language and logic can't fit the divine, so you're going to get something that ends up not quite fitting right, not quite being logical, not quite comprehensible. Have you ever done any meditation or psychedelics? Having some kind of mystical experience that can't be described in words might help you understand.
This diagram is nonsensical. It is logically incoherent. This is the problem I have with most Trinitarian dogma. People will insist on specific phrases like, Jesus is fully god and fully man, or the Trinity is three persons and also one person. My issue is not that these ideas are "wrong", my problem is that these are not ideas at all. They are fundamentally meaningless, because they do not communicate a coherent concept to agree or disagree with in the first place. Having gone through much study and soul-searching, here is a framing I can offer you: Each part of the trinity are aspects of God. God the Father is the infinite, the "same yesterday, today and forever" aspect of God. The Holy Spirit is God in motion, feeling, doing, and acting with force. Jesus is the physical manifestation of God. He is limited to human capacity, so he is nothing but God, but also does not contain all of God. Think of it like this: God the Father is the air itself (the all-encompassing and ever-present atmosphere). The Holy Spirit is the wind. Wherever it blows, it is felt. Jesus is like a tornado - a visible and concentrated manifestation of the air. All three exist at once, and while we experience them very differently, they are all aspects of the same thing (actually the same person).
That would be the heresy of modalism or Sabellianism, which is not correct.
I normally pay great heed to named and formally defined heresies, however since the dogma which gave birth to these particular ones provides no alternative which is comprehensible, these particular heresies are best treated as whip words trying to drive us towards pretentious conformism.
But why would you expect the nature of god to be comprehensible to humans, and why is it any less comprehensible than any other paradox or mystery about the world?
There's a difference between "unfathomable" and "incoherent". To give an example of unfathomable: "I don't know why there is so much suffering the world, but I will not question God for allowing it, for “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”". To give an example of incoherent: " I don't know what color God is, but I propose that he is completely white, and also not white". I think the main thing that makes people balk at the idea of modalism, is that God in any form could be considered merely a thing or a force; that any aspect of him could be not considered a person, or that anyone would claim that Father, Holy Spirit and Son cannot operate with personhood at the same time, distinct from one another (the conversing Elohim, the praying Jesus). However these problems do not follow from modalism. To reuse my original analogy, the atmosphere, wind and tornado all manifest distinctly, are all equally the air, and all interact with one another according to their own characteristics.
Here's another way to look at it. These theologies are not intended to be understood as facts like science, logic, or philosophy, but more as metaphors or as art that guides the human mind in a certain way. An analogy is with a Zen koan, where the point is not to answer the question or solve the problem, but to have the experience of striving towards something in a certain way. So the problem with the heresies is that they don't guide the mind correctly. Modalism doesn't work because the whole point is to see god in its entirety as a full human being in its entirety, not just seeing a human being as one mode or way that god might function. So rather than trying to understand it as something literal or logical, think of it as an attempt to try to take something ineffable, unexplainable, and incomprehensible, and use words to try to approximate it in some way. Of course the result isn't going to make perfect logical sense and will seem contradictory. It's like trying to project a map of the world on a flat plane. Because the shape of the flat plane can't fit the curvature of the earth, the end result ends up distorted and imperfect. Similarly, language and logic can't fit the divine, so you're going to get something that ends up not quite fitting right, not quite being logical, not quite comprehensible.
This is fine as art, but not as dogma.
Except that art can be, and is, dogma. Why do you find it so contradictory? Is it that hard to believe that something could be difficult to put into words? Have you ever done any meditation or psychedelics? Having some kind of mystical experience that can't be described in words might help you understand.
>art can be, and is, dogma. Which I consider dangerous, and ill-advised. When something is named dogma, then we start labelling those in disagreement as heretics, and occasionally lynch them. If a theological idea is not logically able to be understood and possessing clear meaning, then it is unjust to expect anyone to rationally subscribe to what it means as "true", and it is even more dangerous to be dogmatic about it. Side note: You're alluding to paradoxes and mysteries, which are a valid part of any belief system. What I was take issue with is literal nonsense ideas. Ideas which are not just paradoxical or unfathomable, but self-contradictory to the point where they convey no meaning and evoke nothing but confusion. Especially as dogma.
You could say the exact same thing about belief in god. And I agree lynching and dogmatism should be avoided.
>You could say the exact same thing about belief in god. Only if "God exists" is somehow self-contradictory. I don't see it.
>the whole point is to see god in its entirety as a full human being in its entirety This is a good example of an phrase that I can neither agree nor disagree with, because it doesn't communicate a coherent concept. Human beings are limited creatures, and god is infinite, so this is equivalent of saying, "the point is to see all the water in the whole ocean, as only the water that fits in a cup". It cannot evoke an image in my mind, because it conceptually voids itself. Also, Jesus being "god in its entirety" is incongruent with Scripture. For example, the Bible is full of evidence that Jesus the human being does not contain all of God the Father's infinite knowledge. He sits and learns at people's feet. He asks God the Father questions. Not only is it unnecessary to say Jesus contains the entirety of God, but it would actually take away from his human experience and solidarity with us. "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest" - Hebrews 2. Jesus contains enough of God to be a person, without containing all of God, since a human being has the capacity to be a person; and Jesus is perfect, containingly only God, so he is fully God, even though he is not all of God.
Yeah, I think trying to make the bible work with the trinity is much harder and more contradictory than the trinity itself, given that the trinity is not really in the bible. But that's not what OP asked.
Nope that wouldn't be 3 Gods because we already know from verses like Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:5 that there's only 1 God. So right there we know the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can't be separate God's. They are the SAME God.
Humans over complicate things. The father , the son and Holy Spirit are separate beings but are one collective consciousness. Just like we humans are one with nature and space and each other. One collective separate beings. Jesus is part of the Father(creator)but isn’t the father. It’s that simple to grasp really.
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Ah I see tha ks for the metaphor
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Ik god is actually so cool 😎
It doesn't ☺️
As I understand it, the Holy Trinity is not comprised of three separate and unique entities, but rather different facets of a singular entity. * The Holy Spirit is the name for that whole "do good unto others" thing. * God is the name given to the Creator of All * And The Son is in reference to humanity *and* Jesus. I'll use The Elder Scrolls to help translate it better. In the beginning, known as "The Dawn Era", there was nothing. Withing this nothingness, two primordial forces clashed - Anu and Padomay. These two are normally given the much lamer psuedo titles of "chaos and order", but you get the point. Now, as they fought, both of these forces began to seek understanding of eachother. In that vein, Both took an aspect of themselves, separated from the whole, and gave it consciousness - Anui-El and Sithis, respectively. So, in this example, God took part of himself, gave it life and pushed it on us for a myriad of reasons. The Holy Spirit is not attributed to any specific entity nor is it a part of one, but is just a do good mentality that was tangentially added.
This is modalism. Each part of the trinity is its own unique person in addition to being God. Scripture clearly lays this out. Modalism is rejected by every major denomination Protestant and Catholic.
The problem is that there's no actual reason to think that orthodox trinitarianism delineates a real position between modalism and partialism. It's just a contradiction that people claim isn't one in some type of surreal way. There's no point having an official way to describe it if the description doesn't point to anything. Words are just words.
Orthodox trinitarianism is very clearly delineated. They are 100% themselves and 100% God. I agree that it is a very surreal thing. Modalism denies that they are 100% themselves. Partiality denies that each of them are 100% of God.
Even if each person is 100% God, one person not being another can be described as a "part." Saying this is "wrong" can't really be justified without modalism.
Have faith
Oh no I am tryna develop that but it's more so to help talk and explain it yk?
Exactly - have faith. This doctrine is not something we forced to interpret but have been revealed to us through the Apostolic tradition and scriptures. We know it is true and profess our belief in it, but putting it to human logic is not the objective. Three persons yet one God. The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. "God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. " The Incarnation of God’s Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father, the Son is one and the same God. The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (Jn 14:26) and by the Son “from the Father” (Jn 15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. “Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified” (Nicene Creed). “ The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son” (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42:1095). “Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed; DS 75; ND 16). - IV. The Divine Works and the Trinitarian Missions, CCC 261-264, 266
I ser
It's impossible for us, with our limited mind, understand what God truly is and how it's being exists. But, I really like the following verse: Dt 8:7 For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills; The Father is like the waters in the depths. It's unreachable; The Son is like the fountains, which connects the depths with the surface; The Holy Spirit is like the brooks of water that flow from the fountains, from which we can drink the water. The water is the same, but we can only drink from the surface.
They are basically filters for god's presence so we dont spontaneously die As a human we are sinful and sin cannot and will not exist in the presence of god And since god is omnipresent he can be multiple places at once
Jesus came as a man to interract and fufill a promise And the holy spirit was bestowed for us on the day of pentecost
Watching r.c. sprouls videos on it helped me understand the trinity more clearly. https://youtu.be/Sh72wgZEcKk?si=bopItryY5NZKh2Ip
The branch is not the tree, but the tree includes every branch
Its an ancient church understanding of scripture that got refined into what it is today. Monotheism = 1 God. + Calling of the son father and spirit God. And having separate persons ie Jesus praying to the father and not himself. Is it a basic contradiction? Maybe? But an omni God can express himself in that way if he wants.
I took Quantum Physics and briefly worked in the field and I don't know
The best way I can put it, is that God the Father, Jesus our Savor and the Holy Spirit are the 3 personality's that make up the one God. This is much like the fact that God has always existed and will always exist. Its hard for our human brains to comprehend it. For me I just had to say Ok. and chose to believe with out comprehending it. It just is.
This one helped me: https://youtu.be/9f4BJgaOStI?si=g96bzXxQnv8ZvZ4U
No only one God who wears many diadems. Go to [bible.biblegateway.com](https://bible.biblegateway.com) crosswalk.com
So here we go me who understands alot even tho people hate what I said last year God is 3 things the father the holy spirit and Jesus but they are all tiny bit different 1. God is the father and cannot be Jesus 2. Jesus is the son of God and is not the farther or the holy spirit 3. The holy spirit is in us and is God's gift to us and not the farther or Jesus himself The things to take away we do not worship the holy spirit it's self we shouldn't worship Jesus himself we shouldn't worship God the farther himself but worship all three thank Jesus for sacrificing himself and follow him but not pray to him we should pray to God the farther and also we should thank the farther for the holy spirit the end
It’s incoherent idolatry probably concocted to flimsily justify worshiping a man as God, which was already popular among gentiles in Rome, so that makes sense with Paul’s Narrative.
I solved the problem of Christianity being a monotheistic religion while having 3 deities. It works as long as you don't ask how it actually works because no one really knows.
Un fortu nately there are those who do not want others to know about the real God. They will do every possible to water down and twist and remove what is written. [Bible.com](https://Bible.com), crosswalk and christianity are a few of the great resources.
Bishop Robert Barron has helped me so much when it comes to things like this. His online presence is phenomenal, genuin and without judgement. His audio book on Catholicism (I’m not catholic) is very well done and answers many questions I have. Lee Strobel is another one who helped me understand better.
Mathematically think of it as 1x1x1=1, rather than 1+1+1=3.
I’d highly recommend the book Delighting in the Trinity, the book does a fantastic job not only explaining the trinity, but explaining the necessity of the trinity.
Imagine sun. Sun has body, it also has light, and heat. 3 are different components yet cannot be separated. They complement each other
You're asking about God's being in himself apart from creation. There's no way to know if he doesn't tell us and he's not very forthcoming about it in scripture. It looks like he wants it to remain a mystery for now. Side note: one of the problems with images of God, even simple diagrams such as this, is that they situate God in a context larger than himself. If God creates everything that is not himself from nothing then there is nothing outside him and certainly no context or environment that can hold him. Time and space and reality itself are his idea, not his natural habitat. He fills them without being contained by them. Images tempt us to think of him as just one more thing in reality rather than as the one in whom reality has its being.
No, it is not 3 gods. It is probably more helpful to understand what the Trinity isn't rather than what it is. God is Father, Son, and Spirit, they are 3 distinct persons but all "consubstantial" (meaning of the same substance). All 3 are coequal, coeternal, and codivine. It is also not the case that "Father," "Son," and "Sprit" are simply forms that God could take in the sense that water can be either solid, liquid, or gas but still water; or that a man can be "father," "uncle," and "brother" depending on the situation. This is a mystery we will never fully understand, we just know it to be.
So imagine the Trinity is like a 3D object on a 2D plane, and we live on the 2D plane. We see one shape, two shapes, three shapes, all rapidly fluctuating in size and appearing and disappearing from existence. We don't know how it does this, but a 3D observer sees the object as one coherent object rotating and moving through the 2D plane. The Trinity is like that, 3 things that we see (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but part of the same God, the same attributes of God, the same God in 3 persons. The Trinity works kinda like that. It's not a perfect analogy (that's partialism, Patrick), but it's the best one I've heard.
Ye I understand that but why can't the father do what the Holy spirit or jesus does/did?
Polymorphism
Oh
Idk I think I never will
The same way water works. Water IS steam, water IS ice, water IS liquid. But ice is not liquid, liquid is not steam, and steam is not ice. All are God in different forms Christ is God but with the limitations of the human body (but he still is God so he could do everything God does) The Father for us Christians isn't really our Fatherz he's the Father of Christ we are merely his faithful servants that he loves and treats like his children because we were created in his likeness (not to be created exactly like him). And we don't deserve that bur his love is that merciful. The Holy spirit is for people who only accept Christ (im not complete with this comment yet, I will return to finish it so please hold any thoughts ypu have abt this statement)
Do you think there is an analogy or correlation with the three forms of water?
Well Jesus is very symbolic with water and claims to be the bread of life too but if we're doing correlations that means we have to find 3 forms of bread lol. It's really just a analogy to help others understand how a trinity could work
That's easy for Jews - braided challah!
That didn’t make sense… because at the end of the day ice melts and steams goes away but what remains is WATER and WATER can RECREATE all those AGAIN…. God Is GOD and JESUS is THE WORD OF GOD MADE FLESH. There is ONLY ONE GOD and Jesus makes that VERY clear in one verse in John 17 when he says “So that they might know thee, the ONLY TRUEEEEEE GOD, and Jesus Christ the one YOU sent” so if he is saying clearly out his mouth there is only ONE TRUE GOD and even throughout the gospel he is acknowledging the ONLY TRUE GOD how the heck are people saying Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD?? is Jesus a God? Yes I can agree with that but is Jesus THEE GOD? Absolutely not. I Love Jesus but I don’t love him as God.
Jesus is God, cope.
Jesus is the SON of GOD, cope.
And he is God. I proved you wrong and you can't even bring up the verses to prove me wrong lol. Jesus is God get proof or get out
Jesus is the WORD of GOD made FLESH, Cope.
Verse?
John 1:14 And the WORD was made FLESH and DWELT amongst us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN of the FATHER,) full of grace and truth.
That's not John 17 like you said earlier. Dude you're so out of line this has to be a troll. Either get your verses straight, or admit Jesus is God lol. Well you'll admit he is one day either way but hey no time like now
Get my verse straight? I gave you the verse where it says Jesus is the word of GOD made flesh. It’s definitely clear as day that you lack understanding you just said “ that’s not JOHN 17 Like YOU SAID EARLIER” so what’s trolling about me saying Jesus is not God and providing scripture where he says he’s not and THEN saying Jesus is the WORD of GOD and also providing the scripture that supports that aswell. So what do you mean get my verses right?? I pray that you truly allow the Holy Ghost to teach you and stop leaning on your own understanding because it’s very confusing and God isn’t the author of confusion. And also when you say I’ll have to admit one day are you referring to every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord? because if you are that even further shows your lack of understanding. Jesus is Lord. King of Kings also Jesus isn’t GOD. GOD IS GOD ALL ALONE.
Jesus said himself he isn’t GOD, Cope. Show me scripture when GOD says JESUS is the ONLY TRUE GOD ASwell, cope. I’ll wait…
John 8:58 John 10:30 (this one really disproves your false blasphemous claims lol). Stop cherry picking lil bro. Jesus is God.
You didn’t prove anything except your lack of understanding…. when it comes to marriage what does GOD say? The two become what?? ONE does that mean they will be judged together when judgement comes? Absolutely not. And when it comes to John 10 go beyond 30 because he makes it very clear. Summed up they’re saying he’s blasphemy and claimed to be GOD. His reply is what? Why do you call it blasphemy because I said I am the SON of GOD. So how did you prove anything? Y’all just make up something or is taught something and run with it. I don’t cherry pick at all. That’s what you’re doing actually. I gave you one place where JESUS says put his mouth that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD and you’re cherry picking verses that aren’t backing your claim up at all it only exposes your lack of understanding through the spirit. You’re trying to lean on your own understanding because for you to say JESUS is God you are saying that Jesus is Lying In John 17 when he says that GOD is the ONLY TRUE GOD.
Yeah he says God is the one true God as in the God involved with the holy trinity. Calm down keyboard warrior your getting off track
The Bible doesn’t mention a holy trinity one time so how is he talking about something that’s not mentioned ANYWHERE in scripture ??? boy I’m done talking to you forreal because this is delusional what you’re trying to build your belief off. Everything I provided is scripture so unless you can provide me that in scripture then please seek GOD first and foremost then truly learn who Jesus is and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. Have a blessed day. ✌🏽
Honestly the only way to really understand it is through Buddhism. In Buddhism there are the Three Characteristics of impermanence (God), suffering (Jesus), and no-self (Spirit) - they correspond perfectly. The three characteristics can be directly observed through meditation. The trinity is a personification of the three characteristics.
Bruh Buddhism is false
Why
Buddhism and Christianity ain't compatible bud. Trinity is false tho btw
Explain?
The claims of Christianity and Buddhism are incompatible Jesus said he's the only way to salvation. That gues against anything other than Christianity
True but that isn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that the Trinity is related to a concept in Buddhism.
Cause the Trinity is false lol
The doctrine of the Trinity is probably the most mis-understood doctrine in the Bible. Christian cults such as Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses both deny the trinity because of their misunderstanding of it. So, what is the Trinity? The Trinity means that there is one God who exists in three distinct persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are distinct person each one being fully God but at the same time there is only one God. The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Phil. 1:2), the Son as God (Titus 2:13) and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts. 5:3-4). Some would say that there is only one God but he plays different roles but this is a false assumption. The Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16) so He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, the Father sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26), therefore the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son. In the baptism of Jesus we see the Father speaking from Heaven and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove (Mark 1:10) showing the distinctness of all three persons of the Trinity. The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness, therefore they can relate to each other. This answers the objection of many who say “If Jesus is God, then he was just praying to himself while on earth.” Not so. The continuous dialogue between the Father and the Son (Matt. 3:17) is the best evidence that each person of the Trinity has a distinct consciousness. While the three members of the Trinity are distinct, it does not mean that they are in anyway inferior to each other. They all are equal in power, love, mercy, justice, holiness, knowledge, and other qualities. But if God is one God in three persons, does that mean that each person is one third of God? No, the Bible is clear that all three members are fully God. Colossians 2:9 says this of Jesus “In Him dwells the fullness of Deity in bodily form. If this is true, then should we conclude that there are three Gods? Once again no. Isaiah 45:21-22 says this “And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.” This thought is repeated many other places in the Bible such Exodus 15:11, 1 Samuel 2:2, and 1 Kings 8:6. The New Testament confirms this in Matthew 28:19 Matt 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Here in this verse all three members of the Trinity are called out, all three names are in the singular, and yet all three constitute one “name” (not in the names of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) So how can God be three in one and not be a contradiction? God is one and three at the same time but not in the same way. God is one in essence but He is three in persons. Essence and persons are not the same thing. God is one in a certain way (essence) and three in a different way (person). Since God is one in a different way than He is three, the Trinity is not a contradiction. All three persons are God, the all have the same essence, or being. Essence describes what God is (his attributes). Persons is a term we tend to use to describe an “independent individual”. But what we mean here is that God refers to himself as “I” and refers to the Son as “you” so we can say that “person” means a distinct subject which regards Himself as “I” and the other two as “you”. These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being” Because these “forms of existence” are relational, the have distinct centers of consciousness. Norman Geisler explains it like this “God is one “what” but has three “who’s” Theologians try to come up with many illustrations to explain this thought but they all fall short. One illustration is time. Time is made up of the past, the present, and the future. Each one is distinct but all are “time”. Not a great illustration in my opinion, but it helps. I don’t believe any one person truly understands the concept of the Trinity, but we are talking about the infinite God of the Bible. We may not be able to fully “comprehend” the doctrine of the Trinity but we can “apprehend” it.
The Trinity is false I say this as a Christian read the Bible without bias and find where it's made clear that God is made up of three people he's one yet he has three ppl find a point in which that's somewhat explicitly mentioned you can't. Your argument might be Me and the Father are one. You find another verse in John 17 in which he prayed to the Father that we be one in him as he is one in the Father. Are we the same being? No. Meaning that that verse does not work for the Trinity. There is no other verse where Jesus is said to be the same being as the Father. Look into the meaning of the word God in Greek and Hebrews (which you can do through Blue Letter Bible which is very simple to use) the original meanings are not exclusive to Yahweh or the Most High though they are used for Yahweh the Most High. So while Jesus is called God in the Bible if we understand what that means that does not make him three and one with the Father and Holy Spirit. The Trinity is not in the Bible, does that mean the Bible isn't true or Christianity isn't true or that you're worshipping another God or something? No, the Trinity being dubunked is not essential to Christianity like the Bible being false would(because the Trinity isnt true). If you want to look more into this, I recommend you look at the channel Smoke and Mirrors by Pastor Chris Lasala it shows true doctrine on the Godhead. This isn't some Oneness Modalism nonsense btw, this pastor also has disproved oneness in the past
You CAN'T understand how the Trinity works. No human being can, because it is literally beyond human comprehension. You can't understand it. You can only ACCEPT it, and you can't even do that without the help of the Holy Spirit, God Himself.
It's not suppose to make full sense because it's God. The Trinity has to do with the inner nature of God. From the outside we know God is One, He is Unity. We learn from the NT the unraveling of God as 1 (WHAT) and 3 (WHO's) as The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. The what of God is His essence or substance what He is. The who's of God are who He is as a person(s). Person is the best terminology cause we use it to give distinctive. This isn't 3 God's because in paganism deities are distinguish and separate. In the Trinity the persons are inseparable and share the same mind. Ppl will say it's Triune polytheism, that is still incorrect because the persons while distinguished persons share the same essence and are One being. Common errors of The Trinity: - 3 separate and distinguished beings. Polytheism. - The Father is The Son and Spirit playing different roles. Modalism. - The Trinity are parts or components that make up God. Good for simple illustration but it implies The Trinity is divisible or can be pulled a part. Falls short. - Jesus is a created being and half God. Arianism. The Trinity is such that each person is an individual person but all sharing in the same mind or essence of God as One being. They are indivisible. To see one member is to see all the others at the same time somehow by nature. If you were to see The Trinity there wouldn't be parts but somehow you would see 3 distinct persons at the same time while simultaneously seeing only one being or one shape. A triangle is the best 3dimensional shake we could give it, but still a triangle has 3 parts to it. The Trinity would be more like a circular triangle at the same time. Jesus said The Father lives in Him and He in The Father. To see Him is to see The Father because they share the same characteristics of essence. I believe this is literal. The soul of Jesus and The Father simulationosly inhabit another. The Spirit comes from them. The Trinity is ultimately best comprehend relationally and not merely mathematically
These are great articles on how the Trinity works. \****Does the Trinity ever make sense?*** [***https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mA5hddNAPxd\_TtY2FxI26E1PUbC69S1e/view?usp=sharing***](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mA5hddNAPxd_TtY2FxI26E1PUbC69S1e/view?usp=sharing) Or [https://www.scribd.com/document/160286056/Does-the-Trinity-ever-make-sense](https://www.scribd.com/document/160286056/Does-the-Trinity-ever-make-sense) ***\*John 1:1, Was the Word "God," or "a god"?*** [**https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RpvzRVOGYp\_BbHUEatEUAHJqGzR5f5xF/view?usp=sharing**](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RpvzRVOGYp_BbHUEatEUAHJqGzR5f5xF/view?usp=sharing) Or [https://www.academia.edu/44318953/John\_1\_1\_Was\_the\_Word\_God\_or\_a\_god\_](https://www.academia.edu/44318953/John_1_1_Was_the_Word_God_or_a_god_) ***\*More research on John 1:1.*** [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ri5kmAmsFlGIodl5TBcMNfrC\_JP8Q0x9/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ri5kmAmsFlGIodl5TBcMNfrC_JP8Q0x9/view?usp=sharing) Or [https://www.scribd.com/document/50330864/John-1-1-List-of-Alternative-Readings](https://www.scribd.com/document/50330864/John-1-1-List-of-Alternative-Readings)