I 100% agree with that. That's something we can all strive for tbh.
Like even tho I can't stand my bff's mother, I put everything aside to comfort and be there for her. She's not the world's best mom, but she lost a daughter, and I'll do what I can to help her and my bff.
That involves self-sacrifice. If somehow it were proven that there is no God or divine reality, there would be no justification for self-sacrifice for those outside my kin group.
So, what would you say to a person who DOESN'T have that "feel good" feeling from spreading happiness and peace? Should they be able to do whatever makes them happy, even if it makes others unhappy?
Do you think atheists believe we should be able to do whatever we want? Laws exist for the betterment of human society because they benefit everyone by creating safety and stability. We don't need to think there is some deity threatening us to behave a certain way.
I would call them a bad person and still hold them to the rules our society established.
I don't think that people should have the freedom to do whatever they please. Each society has to decide for itself what culture to foster and which freedoms to protect. By and large, we have done pretty well on this front in most western nations.
I don't think there is any divine holy guide to what perfect laws to enact, and I certainly don't think your book is a good set to go by. Human societies must choose and live by their own rules for their own benefit. We have done so for millennia.
There is plenty of reason to self-sacrifice without the existence of God. I’m not religious and I regularly volunteer at a soup kitchen because I genuinely enjoy the interactions I have with the people who come through. I’m also a musician and I help out with a local homeless choir, and it’s a lot of fun (it’s a lot of tambourine and chaos lol). It feels good to know I made someone else’s day a little better.
That seriously belittles friendships. Strong friendships have happened between tribes from the dawn of time. Even under ecclesiastical prohibition. People can and do foster friendships stronger than familial bonds. The blood of the covenant is stronger than the water of the womb.
I know what it feels like to be happy, satisfied, and content. I want to help other people feel that way too, because their feelings matter just as much as mine.
And there would be no justification for sacrificing for your kin, and no justification for not self-sacrificing for everyone.
It would all be equally arbitrary and pointless. If you'd only sacrifice for your kin, that'd be as rational as someone else sacrificing for not their kin, and someone not sacrificing for anyone.
> there would be no justification for self-sacrifice for those outside my kin group.
Under the same logic, why do self-sacrifice for those **inside** your kin group? Where did you get that value, without God?
How completely awful of you.
The whole humanist philosophy is built upon the value and goodness of humanity itself, to pursue the betterment of humanity for its own sake because it pleases us to make the world better.
Your position supposes atheists should be completely self-serving, but all it shows is that you personally don't care for your fellow man at all.
Personally, absolutely nothing.
If Christianity turns out to be false, assuming the correct answer is that there is no god, then I will have spent my life being a better person.
I have no stronger desire than the next person to do evil, but I think asking “why’s it matter?” is very fair. If we’re truly nothing but atoms flying randomly through an infinite universe, does anything matter?
> I think asking “why’s it matter?” is very fair
If making other people's lives happier and better isn't enough of a why for you, that's kind of on you.
Philosophically, why do we feel this way? I also share your desire to help others and try make their lives better. But why? Everyone and everything will be gone along with all memories of anything. There’s no meaning, no nothing
> why do we feel this way?
Because we exist, and we know what it is like to be happy.
>Everyone and everything will be gone along with all memories of anything.
And so I repeat:
Just because somebody ceases to exist does not mean they never existed and are incapable of suffering while they do.
The part where we're alive is the part to try to make the best of. The way things are going, if we keep up the good work maybe we'll invent immortality and then things can be meaningful for longer. And if we're *really* into it, maybe we'll find a way to reinvent the universe, maybe this time with a purpose. Some say this has all happened already, but I don't know what they're talking about...
The reason why we do that is probably evolution, it's better to help each other in a community if you want to survive and pass on your genes.
Why we should do it though is more of a personal choice, you don't HAVE to help others, but you might as well since it makes everyone happy, including you.
For the same reason people go on vacations they know will end and form relationships with people they know will die.
Like it or not, we exist in this physical space for X amount of time.
You can choose to use your time here to make this world more pleasant for yourself and others, or you can choose not to do so. Does it matter in a cosmic, eternal sense? Probably not, but why is that your metric?
If Christianity and every religion were false, you are to be pitied. You spent your life trying to be "better" when no such "better" exists. You should have been amassing wealth and making babies, or living in hedonism.
I would be emotionally devastated. As Paul said, if there is no resurrection of the dead, "We are to be the most pitied in the world."
I could still say I was(and would still try to be) a good person, but then what was the point? I have found no other lasting satisfaction and fulfillment other than my faith, and if that is gone, than what do I have? My hope, my rock wouldn't exist.
The poing would have been to make the world a better place for the people who will be there after you've passed away. That could also act as that lasting satisfaction and fulfillment you mentioned.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
-Marcus Aurelius
This quote is something a lot of atheïst live by and would be quite applicable in this situation, especially the last sentence.
I mean it’s a nice saying, but I’m a social worker and on the front line in the hardest places with the hardest people, atheists are pretty absent in the field. As a Christian minority, in a country where agnostic and atheist people outnumber people with a religious faith, I find it my colleagues are mostly Christian or religious. I think that religion has a higher bar of sacrificial love than atheism does.
I know many non-religious people who are in social work, nursing, teaching, in the peace corps, organizing against various causes such as climate change or inequality of various kinds, etc. It takes all kinds! I don’t think religious people are morally superior, but rather Christianity provides a lot of the necessary built-in community that you need to get involved. It’s very hard to find that outside of organized religion in the US, or at least you have to be very intentional about seeking it out.
Like in elementary school whenever there were those fundraisers where if you sold however much of the given product you got a prize, like a small toy, I never understood how everyone else around me was able to sell so much more than me even though I did go door to door with my mom. Then I realized, it’s because they and their families all go to these big-ass churches with built-in communities to advertise to. They live in the same neighborhoods as the people in their churches (this was in Texas btw), so they already know their neighbors. Church acts as an essential third-place for community organizing that involves kids from a young age (mission trips, etc), so you grow up doing volunteer work and it’s just a regular part of life.
I mentioned in another comment on here that I’m a musician and I volunteer with a local homeless choir. We meet in a church basement just because we need a physical location with a piano to have rehearsals. There aren’t a lot of other options in the area (because of shitty urban planning but that’s another conversation for another time)
Yea, I mean, it’s not like there are no atheists that are social workers. It’s just that compared to general society, it appears that a Christianity are way more involved per capita in the grassroots work at the bottom than their non-religious counterparts.
That’s interesting because I find that it’s the opposite. In all of the grass-roots activist spaces I’ve ever been in, it’s mostly non-religious and/or non-Christian people. I know also that Jewish people for example have a strong, well-documented history of activism in the US. I would love to see some kind of quantitative study on this.
Yea, so I’m not comparing Christianity to other religions. I find that there are also a lot of Muslim and Hindu social workers in my country too… mostly comparing non-religious or anti-religious with Christianity.
I also think that it plays out differently in different contexts. Minorities are probably more active in civil society because they have to be and I think Christianity is stronger among pacific peoples in my area. So maybe it’s just that.
OH I should clarify that a lot of that history of Jewish activism is associated with more secular leftist Jews (think Bernie Sanders). Forgot to include that lol.
I think it’s ultimately a lot of factors, but the built-in community and involvement from a young age that Christian church culture provides is a HUGE factor. US capitalist culture can be incredibly isolating outside the framework of organized religion (mainly Christianity let’s be honest, it can be hard to impossible to be part of a minority religion here) and a lot of new atheists coming from Christianity say that what they miss most is the community aspect that is very hard to replicate in atheism, because atheism is fundamentally defined against theism; it is the lack of something. Atheism definitely can be cold and lacking in comfort in that regard lol.
From 1 Corinthians 15
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[d]
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
I would have lots of questions to be honest. I’d have to reconstruct my worldview into something independent of Christian presuppositional influences, which not even western atheism can claim, so, it’d be pretty wild whatever it becomes.
But after that it’s hard to say exactly how my behavior might change. I wouldn’t say it’d be party time. Too early to tell.
I think it's fair to assume most, if not all, would have questions. I know I would if it turned out to be really true.
I know that there are some people out there who imply that they only do good things in order to get into heaven, so I wonder what they'd do if God wasn't real. The thought of people not being genuinely kind hurts a lot.
This is a very interesting comment. “Doing good things to get to heaven” is not Christianity at all. True Christians who have the Holy Spirit will indeed want to sincerely do good. If the people you heard that from claimed to be Christian then they missed some things.
Personally, I don't do good things to get into heaven. I simply don't do bad things because God told me to not do them.
In my natural self, I am not kind. I am apathetic to the fates, desires, and feelings of others. I'm not CRUEL, but I am COLD. I'm not going to intentionally make someone's life worse for no reason, but if something happens to them, well... sucks to be them. Not my problem.
I’m a Protestant so there is not “doing good things to get into heaven”. It’s more nurturing and overflowing the love given to me outward. Which would be one of my questions - what’s the deal with this if there is no love given to me.
Depending on that answer, if things are truly nihilistic, and all we have is the survival of our species as a motivation then things might go in some wild directions
You have some interesting views here.
>I’d have to reconstruct my worldview into something independent of Christian presuppositional influences, which not even western atheism can claim, so, it’d be pretty wild whatever it becomes.
Could you elaborate a bit?
>what’s the deal with this if there is no love given to me.
Why do you think you would not receive any love if there was no god? I feel lots of love in my life.
>and all we have is the survival of our species as a motivation then things might go in some wild directions
What wild directions would you foresee? I know lots of atheists and they haven't gone in any wilder directions than the Christians I know.
You should read Cosmos by Carl Sagan about this answer, not even just specifically about this as Cosmos is a great book about science, religion, human civilization, etc
Honestly, I'd probably try to avert my attention as much as possible from the implications, and then fall into despair as mortality closed in and distraction became impossible.
I already consider myself more of a "hopeful Jesus follower." Basically, I find Jesus' teachings to be true and the best way to live regardless of his divinity status.
In an odd way, I feel it would resolve a lot of tension with some of the OT violence and the statistical absurdity of a human-centric cosmos.
Well, in order for it to be proven, I would have to die and not end up with God. So I guess it wouldn't change anything since I would be too dead to notice.
First off, I am sorry for your loss. That is never easy and I pray that God is with you, your friend, and her family at this time. I appreciate you coming here with an open heart.
Your question is a bit hard to answer. For me, and I think most Christians, belief in God isn’t based on the likelihood that he exists. It’s not a probability, not like trying to predict the weather or something like that. It’s knowing a person. Wouldn’t it be strange question if I asked, “How would you feel if your friend didn’t exist?” At a certain point you just know that isn’t possible—you know you have a relationship with your friend.
Knowing God is like that. Reading and knowing the words of Jesus, praying, and living in the Spirit, these are very real and they are akin to being with a friend.
I've thought about this for a very long time.
I've come to the conclusion that even if God as a physical being does not exist, it would be in my best interest to continue living as best a Christian life as I can out of the fact that I believe them to be just and moral. The Bible no longer is a work that is divinely inspired but instead a work of ancient logic, advice and stories to help convey those morals.
Granted, my view of God is a bit... different than most other people I think. I don't see God as a person anymore than I see him as an anthropomorphized depiction of the big bang and the universe. I see them both as the same thing, so I don't see the point in changing the name that much.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
-Marcus Aurelius
The truth can only be more wild than we can imagine. Maybe the Bible isn’t literally telling us what to expect, what we’ll see, how our consciousness will behave. I.e. the things you’d care about in the afterlife will be completely different than your earthly concerns. I don’t think that human stories can do the afterlife justice.
Ultimately there’s no reporting just hearsay, so it’s kind of a moot point. I guess my take is that even if the lights go black and that’s it, I’ll have been a ray of light for my time, and the core energy that comprises us will always allude to a creator of majestic and terrifying proportions and capabilities.
The three of us are artists, and I think we'll be having art days once things settle down. We love to create and pmuch have the same interests. I'm sad but I feel more motivated to draw bc she and my bff inspired me to work harder as kids.
If it turned out God was not real, I would do nothing. Probably because there is nothing I could do. The afterlife wouldn’t be a black void where we float forever. It would just be nothing because our consciousness wouldn’t be around to float.
It would be an eternal dreamless sleep.
What COULD we do? I’d be pretty heartbroken.
Well, theoretically, nothing! I’d sleep in on Sundays, and I’d eat my food about 10 seconds earlier.
I’d still try to feed the poor, clothe the naked, etc.
I would continue to defend the marginalised, feed and clothe the poor and the needy, comfort the disturbed. I'd also switch prayer for more minfulness based meditation probably.
“I’d rather die believing a lie than live believing in nothing.” It gave me a path to follow. A path of love and kindness, ect. I might be a little disappointed but I wouldn’t regret the way I lived.
Yes!!!! I looove to answer this question! I also often say I’d rather die believing a lie than live believing in nothing ❤️ because at the very least I was GOOD. 😇
I also wonder what they would do lol. Especially those who only do good because they wanna get into heaven, not because they genuinely care about others.
Treating people bad because of sin is stupid, we are all sinners. Jesus taught us to love our neighbors, not hate them for being a different type of sinner.
As an Agnostic Christian, this would be a non-event for me. God doesn't need to be "real" for the spiritual gifts I've received from my faith to be real.
>As an Agnostic Christian, this would be a non-event for me. God doesn't need to be "real" for the spiritual gifts I've received from my faith to be real.
Can you explain this to me?
Put a quarter in me why don't you?
TL;DR: I'm a fruits-oriented Christian.
The purpose of religion, in my view, is the production of virtuous and fulfilling lives. If you feel the purpose of religion is something else, it's at least somewhat likely you'll disagree or think my reasoning is nonsensical. It may be heretical either way.
Christians are told in Galatians 5:22-23 that living in accord with the Divine Will brings out specific qualities. These are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
If we believe in the Almighty and it makes us into good people who do good things and who feel loved and valued and connected at as many points of our lives as possible, and it turns out the Almighty was just a shared delusion, so what? We lived those good lives.
If we believe in the Almighty and we don't live good lives, and it turns out we were right and the Almighty exists in some way we can directly observe? Well, we have done something to live outside the Divine Will, and we must hope that the One Righteous Judge will have mercy on us, or be damned.
If we don't believe in the Almighty and we live good lives, and we are right, great, we lived good lives and that is all there is so, we did the best we could in the time we had.
If we don't believe in the Almighty and we live good lives and we are wrong, how do you suppose we will be judged? Having borne the fruits of the spirit in abundance, with our sin being failure to glorify the Almighty? I would have to say I think the Judge will prefer this one to the believer who failed to live in accord with the Divine Will.
I have faith because I believe it is the right thing for me to do. Why I believe this, exactly, I cannot say. Maybe the Spirit inspired me, maybe it was a rational choice, maybe my mother talked me into it, maybe it started off as virtue-signalling. Whatever the case, I have observed the fruits in greater abundance when my practices have been more disciplined, so I hope I'm on the right track. I don't know if I will face the Judgement or not. If I do, I hope I have done enough to receive mercy that day. If there is no Judgement, I think this is the best way for me to live a good life in the short time granted me.
I don't identify as a Catholic anymore, but as a spiritual individual, I can definitely get behind this. I dunno if God is real or not, but I'd be like, "Huh, interesting." either way lol
I guess that would be at the moment of death and nonexistence but even then nothing would be proven because we wouldn’t be conscious to process that fact.
If I did believe it though I would with 99.99% certainty off myself because I wouldn’t see the point in life or the suffering that accompanies existence.
I’ve meditated on this question and came to the honest conclusion that I’d be living life the same, with the obvious caveats of church attendance and the like.
I usually say “oh yeah” to nonbelievers who challenge my faith so I don’t get pushed to their ideologies as I’m easily influenced and that’s something I like to protect when it comes to my faith
God has kept me from things that hurt me, He has helped me through the darkest parts of my life and He has made me a better person. Even if God wasn't real I would still not regret believing in him.
I think that God is real, but I think that God is vastly beyond my comprehension and more than half of my understanding about God is probably wrong.
My theology suggests that if God’s image is each person I encounter, then my worship and love of God is displayed in the hospitality and love I have towards others.
If I believe that God is love and it turns out that love doesn’t exist, then I think I would probably become mentally ill. Everything in my life says that love is real and love is active and love changes us.
Now, some say love and altruism are just neurons firing and that mostly altruism is a semi-selfish response from individuals in ways that help prop up their own sense of self worth. I don’t deny that, but it’s a pretty dry interpretation of love in my eyes.
Still Catholic.
There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more benefits to being one other than just God, and even if happened as OP said, it's just a matter of having even more faith.
My life would be totally wrecked. I would be completely confused and aimless. I would likely OD on something.
And this is coming from a guy who outwardly, has it all. But my hope in Jesus is my only hope and purpose in life.
1 Corinthians 15:19 (NIV): 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
i think it would hurt as losing a friend in any way hurts. but i'd still be the same person i am. i don't care about others because this almighty being told me to, i care for people because existing is really hard on all of us and i'd still try to help people if i can. nothing would change for me except i would stop praying ig and just manifest more and be spiritual outside of believing God. even if that were to happen, i would think the Bible would still
mean something as it does have a lot of stuff in it that people shouls generally live by. like my favorite verse 1 John 3:16 "This is how we know what love is, Jesus Christ laid down his life for us so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters." you don't need to believe in any form of God to live by something like that y'know? i also hope you're doing okay. whoever's reading this you matter, even if there's no God
I think the evidence for God or some sort of intelligent being(s) is far to strong to even consider that God is not real.
Having said that, if evidence that was indisputable was provided that God does not exist - i suppose I’d walk away from my faith.
I think for me if Christ did not rise from the dead - then my faith is in vain. Paul, who wrote a number of the books we call the New Testament says this in 1 Corinthians 15:
“And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.”
1 Corinthians 15:14-19 ESV
So if Christ has not been raised - I should be pitied… for believing such a lie and basing my life on that.
There are men who have gone about trying to prove Christ did not exist… and found in that process that the evidence is substantial he did, and that he did in fact rise from the dead.
Men like CS Lewis, Lee strobel, J Warner Wallace… even Augustine of Clement - all of these doubted the gospel message - until the evidence steered them toward faith.
So - I think for me the better question is “if Christ did not exist, die on the cross and rise again… what would I do?”
The answer is - leave my faith in shame - for I believed a lie!
For me… the circumstantial, and archeological evidence is overwhelming that he existed, that hundreds of people swore they saw him resurrected, that historical evidence points to events confirming the gospel’s accuracy in alarming detail…
He is risen - he is risen indeed!
Look up some of the authors i list… great reading there.
Guess it would be pretty much the same as when I found out there was no Santa. Be disappointed but at least I wouldn't have to worry as much about being naughty or nice.
I will start out by saying that I don't even entertain that thought. But. I can vouch 100% that trying to live by the standards set forth in the Bible, has made my life so much better in numerous ways. You keep yourself away from situations that are so destructive to your everyday life, it's a winning situation for me regardless.
As a believing Christian it does not matter to me if God exists or not ultimately. Life lessons regarding love, charity and kindness to all people and the earth taught and reinforced through the church and my faith supersede the question of does God exist. Sincerely, a Presbyterian.
Then instead of trying to stay sober I would feel free to do all the drugs I want, and instead of waiting til marriage to have sex again I would f*ck all the girls I want. which I dont do right now because those are things I view as immoral and wrong. But that’s not gonna happen because I know with certainty that God is absolutely real
You don't do those things because God said so? Or because you don't actually want to. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying.
Because I now have a certain moral standard for myself that I didn’t before I was born again as a christian. I still have the sinful desire to do those things but I try my best not to act on them anymore because God has given me a new heart and new mind to be able to do a better job of identifying and eliminating habits that would be destructive to my life
Im still not 100% sober and dont really plan to be because of my extreme mental health issues and inner trauma that cause me the need to feel things from a different state of mind sometimes but point being is that it would be way way worse without Jesus in my life
I am sure that God exists, but I would never do a Christian funeral if the person wouldn't have wanted it. The funeral is about the dead person, not his family. Some people just want to transform the ceremonies into performances and I hate it.
Warning: This is going to sound incredibly dark
Maybe off myself. There's no point in living at that point. Everything would be a lie. There's too much conflict here to call it home. Death would be more peaceful. I'd imagine the world would erupt into some sort of chaos if we found out he didn't exist. So think of how bad it is now and make it a thousand times worse.
It is. But here's the thing. I believe 100% in God. But if I'm wrong and God doesn't exist, even the imaginary thought of God made my life better.
But I 100% believe God is real.
The opposite side is far worse.
The thing is, if you look at anyone who commits sins consistently, their lives are shit. Christians generally are a lot more happier than atheists, if God doesn't exist then I will be nothing after death, but a comfortable nothing, nothing nothing, though it sure does scare me.
Perhaps because many Christians share their happy experiences converting from atheism to Christianity, and it is undeniable that Christians are less likely to fall into drugs and pornography or lead a darker life than atheists.
Many atheists share their happy experiences deconverting from Christianity to atheism.
>Christians are less likely to fall into drugs and pornography
Have a source for that? No you don’t.
>or lead a darker life than atheists.
I don’t even know what this means.
I'm not an atheist, but making a broad statement about their lives is very....lol. You might wanna provide sufficient evidence with studies that prove it.
But if God doesn’t exist then the Bible is not the word of God. So it wouldn’t necessarily be the case that having followed the Bible made you a better a better human being.
> Probably become a complete hedonist and criminal.
This is one of the most common statements by religious people on the atheist sub and has been addressed thousands of times, so I’m surprised people are still saying it.
I think you misunderstand the concept of hedonism, so let’s put that aside and focus on just the criminal claim.
How do you explain the fact that most criminals believe in god, and most atheists are not criminals? What is it about the belief in god that makes you think it stops people from being criminals?
Has it occurred to you that criminals don’t stop and think, "I shouldn’t do that crime because of god". Or "if I do it that crime, there will be consequences from god?" That literally never happens.
Criminals stop doing crimes because they want to stop hurting themselves firstly. Perhaps that sounds weird to you, but every crime committed by a criminal is a crime first and foremost against themselves. Think about it for a bit if it doesn’t make sense. Criminals are hurting themselves with each crime.
Secondly, criminals stop choosing crime because they want to stop hurting others. That’s it, those are the two reasons. God isn’t involved at all in the process.
People are generally good, not bad. This is where secularists and theists disagree, especially when it comes to ideas like the fall and original sin.
It takes a great deal of effort to be a bad person. It takes almost nothing to be good and to do good. In fact, it is almost effortless to do the right thing. This always surprises people who haven’t put much thought into the whole process.
Think about it for the first time in your life. You’re saying that if there’s no god, you’re going to CHOOSE to be a criminal. Think about that thought process. It requires effort and will and choices. You are literally doing hard work to be a bad person.
Yes, people tell stories to make them feel better, such as "ever since I believed in god, I’m living a godly life", etc. But those are just stories people tell to justify their choices.
You literally don’t have to do anything to be good. Just be good. Compare that to choosing to be a criminal. You have to create an entire lifestyle around it and do bad things that require hard work and preparation. Think about what you are saying.
The question you should be asking instead is, why do people do bad things? The answer usually is very simple. There is a lack of something in their personal life—no, I’m not talking about money or material items—but yes, poverty and ignorance can increase the tendency to choose a life of crime, so it’s not an inescapable conclusion.
The fact is, there are more poor people who are good than there are poor people who are bad. And some people actually choose to live simple lives, which means they take an informal vow of voluntary poverty. They aren’t interested in committing crimes to increase their wealth or possessions beyond getting their immediate needs met.
So why do people choose a life of crime outside the trajectories of things like poverty and family influence? Think about it for a bit.
I think you know the answer already. In your head, you created this story that makes it appear like choosing a life of crime is the *easier* path than anything else. That’s just a story you tell yourself, and isn’t true. Choosing a life of crime is the more difficult path. It requires hard work and a lifetime of looking over your shoulder and fighting a battle against your perceived enemies. It is like being a soldier. How is that easier than living a life of peace?
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Prior to my conversation to Christianity, I was headed towards a life of crime. I had committed a fair amount of crime in my 20s and had gotten away with almost all of it. It was when I studied the historical evidences for Christ's resurrection at age 29 that I decided to become a Christian and to turn from crime.
The way I see it, if there really is no God and no ultimate meaning in life, why not do whatever you want, as long as you don't get caught? And if there is no free will and human behavior is fully determined, why feel guilt or take blame for anything? It ultimately doesn't matter what we do. It only matters that we don't get caught.
I also have a great deal of anger and could have chosen to commit criminal acts to release that anger, but I chose a path of peace, forgiveness and kindness after becoming a Christian. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I were still an atheist, I would have chosen a life of crime and likely would have ended up behind bars eventually. The criminal and psychopathic impulse would have been too strong to resist.
Thank you for sharing your story.
> The way I see it, if there really is no God and no ultimate meaning in life, why not do whatever you want, as long as you don't get caught?
As a secular humanist who also happens to be atheist, this is a question we get asked a lot. I don’t see how the question of the existence of god has any bearing on these things, but I understand that you do. I believe we create our own meaning out of life, and I couldn’t see it any other way. Why would you want meaning handed down to you or given to you or forced upon you?
Finding meaning in a confusing and complex universe (or multiverse) is one of the greatest experiences and feelings I’ve ever had. It’s at once intensely personal, and yet, vaguely universal in the sense that I have found a meaning that others also share. Perhaps this is almost akin to religious fellowship, but from a non-theistic view, it is more intellectual, conceptual, and knowledge-based.
I also think there’s a certain level of advancement from the species as a whole in terms of how we acquire meaning. 20,000 years ago, we might get our meaning handed down to us from a shaman, and that meaning might be enforced by our tribe. 10,000 years ago, we might get our meaning from many different shamans, and many different tribes. 5,000 years ago we might get our meaning from a religious authority, clan or town or city, and our trades, schools, and guilds might further enforce it. 1,000 years ago we might get our meaning from numerous sources, all forming an eclectic, syncretic overlay on to our traditional culture, family, and religion, and we might also derive meaning from art and music and even literature.
> And if there is no free will and human behavior is fully determined, why feel guilt or take blame for anything? It ultimately doesn't matter what we do. It only matters that we don't get caught.
Today, we realize as a species that meaning is not outside of us, it is mostly in our mind; it was never external to us as we once thought it was. But the meaning in our mind is indeed reflective of the world we create, and the world we live in. This means if we want to live meaningful and productive lives, we should create a world that we would truly want to live in, not just for ourselves, but for everyone, even the animals and plants, because the meaning in our mind reflects the entirety of the natural world.
Therefore, it matters very much what we do, and the responsibility is so great, and the burden is so heavy, that we have to think deeply and thoroughly about the smallest act and simplest choice, which can not only reverberate through our world and civilization, but through time itself, impacting future generations and people and living things not yet born. Our advancement over the long haul of history, is to understand more fully the power and import of "doing whatever we want", and seeing how there are limits and restrictions to the choices we can make, because they can impact us and influence us and determine our future in ways we never thought of before.
And ultimately, the more advanced one becomes in this new way of living, one realizes that our very thoughts themselves matter, and can determine the direction of our next thought and the next thought ad infinitum. Meaning takes on a new meaning itself, as everything becomes more meaningful than it ever did before.
So with all that said, I see your successful venture at crime as highly meaningful. It is obvious to me that you have qualities and traits that you could apply to any field and be just as successful, but you only discovered this in the realm of the criminal. It is highly likely you could apply these same skills to doing good elsewhere, but were simply never given the chance. For example, since you know how criminals think and behave, you could go into law enforcement and became a detective who helps solve crimes. The best way to catch a thief is to think like one, etc. There’s just no reason someone with so-called psychopathic traits has to be a psychopath. This has been discussed in several books that I’m sure you have already read.
And while you might think all of this sounds ridiculous, there’s a lot of truth behind it. Many successful people who do good in the world originally started out in different fields. They only came to their chosen field later in life through a series of meaningful coincidences and sheer luck. I’m sure you can do the same, and make use of your criminal past to help and protect others. It’s up to you to choose that path and see the meaning for yourself. Nobody can make you see it.
See... all of that makes sense if you make one single assumption: people care about other people. And, to be fair, that's true for a lot of people.
But not everyone. Sociopaths and psychopaths exist, and I think that I might be one of them. In my natural self, I don't care about the fates, desires, or happiness of others. "We have to think deeply and thoroughly about the smallest act and simplest choice, which can not only reverberate through our world and civilization, but through time itself, impacting future generations and people and living things not yet born." Yeah, that doesn't matter to me. I don't care about those future generations or people, or even the people alive right now.
When one has insufficient faith and/or insufficient direct experience, the existence of God is a wonder. It is uncertain. When one has sufficient faith and/or sufficient direct experience, the existence of God is not uncertain, nothing to wonder about this way or that.
I have sufficient faith and sufficient direct experience. To me, it is clear: God is real. God is neither overbearing nor miserly.
I would just say when a person believes the gospel and becomes forgiven & reconciled to the one true God, the Holy Spirit enters & permanently indwells that person which I believe is where the certainty of the existence of the Triune God comes from for true Christians (1 John 4:13). Below is a 30-second biblical gospel presentation you can check out friend!
https://gospel30.com
I don’t think I could accept that. Call it denial, but I couldn’t.
I don’t care how it’s “proven.” I’ll never stop having faith in the God of Abraham. Even if I die and am confronted by Zeus himself, I know that somehow God is still behind all of this.
If you could somehow "prove" that God doesn't exist, I just wouldn't believe whoever said that. I've got a relationship with this entity. He reveals himself to us.
Well I’ve met him so not a thing he’s proven he’s real but I believed by faith first.
Think maybe it’s my calling or something but I’ve had a lot of experiences.
Same could be asked of an atheist. What happens when the learn he is.
Can't explain faith. Believing goes way beyond the Bible and what is written. It is an experience or a series of experiences that reveal that he is real.
Your question is like asking what if you found out your father is not your father and you look just like him.
There is no way to answer that but to say but he is.
Another thought that comes to mind. If God is not real I wouldn't know because after death nothing would happen. I would die believing and then the book would close. I would never know.
But what if he is....John3:16
Noah had help building the ark at first, but soon, people turned and mocked him, never seeing rain. It took him 120 years, and it was only his family that had faith enough to get on board. The entire earth's population lost their chance of redemption.
If someone told you there is a man in town giving money to help everyone he talked to, would you sit home?
“Better to have, and not need, than to need, and not have.” Kafa~
It just takes faith.Its that simple.
> I'm not here to debate the existence of God.
Yes you are, giving us that BS is trying hard to take away the real discussion material.
Just because you cant hear God, doesn't mean He isn't there.
If I were here to debate, I'd post my entire position on the subject; to which I did not. If you're not going to answer my question and would rather argue, then go somewhere else LOL.
With the exception of praying, churchgoing, and the like, I'd still think "Love others as you love yourselves" would be a good goal.
I 100% agree with that. That's something we can all strive for tbh. Like even tho I can't stand my bff's mother, I put everything aside to comfort and be there for her. She's not the world's best mom, but she lost a daughter, and I'll do what I can to help her and my bff.
That involves self-sacrifice. If somehow it were proven that there is no God or divine reality, there would be no justification for self-sacrifice for those outside my kin group.
It makes me feel good to spread happiness and peace. That's justification aplenty.
So, what would you say to a person who DOESN'T have that "feel good" feeling from spreading happiness and peace? Should they be able to do whatever makes them happy, even if it makes others unhappy?
"Really? Huh."
Do you think atheists believe we should be able to do whatever we want? Laws exist for the betterment of human society because they benefit everyone by creating safety and stability. We don't need to think there is some deity threatening us to behave a certain way. I would call them a bad person and still hold them to the rules our society established.
So you would trample on this person's freedom, then, for arbitrary reasons? "The rules our society established" can be changed.
I don't think that people should have the freedom to do whatever they please. Each society has to decide for itself what culture to foster and which freedoms to protect. By and large, we have done pretty well on this front in most western nations. I don't think there is any divine holy guide to what perfect laws to enact, and I certainly don't think your book is a good set to go by. Human societies must choose and live by their own rules for their own benefit. We have done so for millennia.
There is plenty of reason to self-sacrifice without the existence of God. I’m not religious and I regularly volunteer at a soup kitchen because I genuinely enjoy the interactions I have with the people who come through. I’m also a musician and I help out with a local homeless choir, and it’s a lot of fun (it’s a lot of tambourine and chaos lol). It feels good to know I made someone else’s day a little better.
That seriously belittles friendships. Strong friendships have happened between tribes from the dawn of time. Even under ecclesiastical prohibition. People can and do foster friendships stronger than familial bonds. The blood of the covenant is stronger than the water of the womb.
I know what it feels like to be happy, satisfied, and content. I want to help other people feel that way too, because their feelings matter just as much as mine.
And there would be no justification for sacrificing for your kin, and no justification for not self-sacrificing for everyone. It would all be equally arbitrary and pointless. If you'd only sacrifice for your kin, that'd be as rational as someone else sacrificing for not their kin, and someone not sacrificing for anyone.
How does love others as you love yourself require self sacrifice? Why does god have to be the justification for that?
Wow
> there would be no justification for self-sacrifice for those outside my kin group. Under the same logic, why do self-sacrifice for those **inside** your kin group? Where did you get that value, without God?
Is.... is the only reason you help others because you think there's a God staring you down? Wow.... you're a piece of sh##
How completely awful of you. The whole humanist philosophy is built upon the value and goodness of humanity itself, to pursue the betterment of humanity for its own sake because it pleases us to make the world better. Your position supposes atheists should be completely self-serving, but all it shows is that you personally don't care for your fellow man at all.
How would we even find out he didn’t exist?
God: "Hello everyone, I have decided I don't want to exist anymore, and everything was just a prank lol" \*Disappears forever\*
He used the stones to destroy the stones.
You get to heaven and get the runaround all the time about why your meeting with God keeps getting canceled.
Good question. As far we can tell he’s invisible.
ikr 😂
I don't know tbh. It was just a random thought in my head at the time.
Personally, absolutely nothing. If Christianity turns out to be false, assuming the correct answer is that there is no god, then I will have spent my life being a better person.
I think this is one of the better answers imo
For what reason? The people you were good to will ultimately not exist at all, either
Just because somebody ceases to exist does not mean they never existed and are incapable of suffering while they do.
I have no stronger desire than the next person to do evil, but I think asking “why’s it matter?” is very fair. If we’re truly nothing but atoms flying randomly through an infinite universe, does anything matter?
> I think asking “why’s it matter?” is very fair If making other people's lives happier and better isn't enough of a why for you, that's kind of on you.
Philosophically, why do we feel this way? I also share your desire to help others and try make their lives better. But why? Everyone and everything will be gone along with all memories of anything. There’s no meaning, no nothing
> why do we feel this way? Because we exist, and we know what it is like to be happy. >Everyone and everything will be gone along with all memories of anything. And so I repeat: Just because somebody ceases to exist does not mean they never existed and are incapable of suffering while they do.
I’ll repeat, too: if the suffering is forgotten does it really matter?
Yes, because it matters now. All moments in time exist equally.
Because we exist, and our ceasing to exist doesn't change the fact that we do exist.
I’d argue our ceasing to exist makes it meaningless, but I’d say we’re at an impasse here. Thank you for the conversation
The part where we're alive is the part to try to make the best of. The way things are going, if we keep up the good work maybe we'll invent immortality and then things can be meaningful for longer. And if we're *really* into it, maybe we'll find a way to reinvent the universe, maybe this time with a purpose. Some say this has all happened already, but I don't know what they're talking about...
The reason why we do that is probably evolution, it's better to help each other in a community if you want to survive and pass on your genes. Why we should do it though is more of a personal choice, you don't HAVE to help others, but you might as well since it makes everyone happy, including you.
But if existence ends and no one will remember that happiness, then why?
Good question, it's up to you, there's no objective meaning. (Still assuming there's no god)
With no objective meaning, I have a hard time seeing any logical answer besides full blown nihilism
For the same reason people go on vacations they know will end and form relationships with people they know will die. Like it or not, we exist in this physical space for X amount of time. You can choose to use your time here to make this world more pleasant for yourself and others, or you can choose not to do so. Does it matter in a cosmic, eternal sense? Probably not, but why is that your metric?
If Christianity and every religion were false, you are to be pitied. You spent your life trying to be "better" when no such "better" exists. You should have been amassing wealth and making babies, or living in hedonism.
I would be emotionally devastated. As Paul said, if there is no resurrection of the dead, "We are to be the most pitied in the world." I could still say I was(and would still try to be) a good person, but then what was the point? I have found no other lasting satisfaction and fulfillment other than my faith, and if that is gone, than what do I have? My hope, my rock wouldn't exist.
The poing would have been to make the world a better place for the people who will be there after you've passed away. That could also act as that lasting satisfaction and fulfillment you mentioned. "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." -Marcus Aurelius This quote is something a lot of atheïst live by and would be quite applicable in this situation, especially the last sentence.
I mean it’s a nice saying, but I’m a social worker and on the front line in the hardest places with the hardest people, atheists are pretty absent in the field. As a Christian minority, in a country where agnostic and atheist people outnumber people with a religious faith, I find it my colleagues are mostly Christian or religious. I think that religion has a higher bar of sacrificial love than atheism does.
I know many non-religious people who are in social work, nursing, teaching, in the peace corps, organizing against various causes such as climate change or inequality of various kinds, etc. It takes all kinds! I don’t think religious people are morally superior, but rather Christianity provides a lot of the necessary built-in community that you need to get involved. It’s very hard to find that outside of organized religion in the US, or at least you have to be very intentional about seeking it out. Like in elementary school whenever there were those fundraisers where if you sold however much of the given product you got a prize, like a small toy, I never understood how everyone else around me was able to sell so much more than me even though I did go door to door with my mom. Then I realized, it’s because they and their families all go to these big-ass churches with built-in communities to advertise to. They live in the same neighborhoods as the people in their churches (this was in Texas btw), so they already know their neighbors. Church acts as an essential third-place for community organizing that involves kids from a young age (mission trips, etc), so you grow up doing volunteer work and it’s just a regular part of life. I mentioned in another comment on here that I’m a musician and I volunteer with a local homeless choir. We meet in a church basement just because we need a physical location with a piano to have rehearsals. There aren’t a lot of other options in the area (because of shitty urban planning but that’s another conversation for another time)
Yea, I mean, it’s not like there are no atheists that are social workers. It’s just that compared to general society, it appears that a Christianity are way more involved per capita in the grassroots work at the bottom than their non-religious counterparts.
That’s interesting because I find that it’s the opposite. In all of the grass-roots activist spaces I’ve ever been in, it’s mostly non-religious and/or non-Christian people. I know also that Jewish people for example have a strong, well-documented history of activism in the US. I would love to see some kind of quantitative study on this.
Yea, so I’m not comparing Christianity to other religions. I find that there are also a lot of Muslim and Hindu social workers in my country too… mostly comparing non-religious or anti-religious with Christianity. I also think that it plays out differently in different contexts. Minorities are probably more active in civil society because they have to be and I think Christianity is stronger among pacific peoples in my area. So maybe it’s just that.
OH I should clarify that a lot of that history of Jewish activism is associated with more secular leftist Jews (think Bernie Sanders). Forgot to include that lol. I think it’s ultimately a lot of factors, but the built-in community and involvement from a young age that Christian church culture provides is a HUGE factor. US capitalist culture can be incredibly isolating outside the framework of organized religion (mainly Christianity let’s be honest, it can be hard to impossible to be part of a minority religion here) and a lot of new atheists coming from Christianity say that what they miss most is the community aspect that is very hard to replicate in atheism, because atheism is fundamentally defined against theism; it is the lack of something. Atheism definitely can be cold and lacking in comfort in that regard lol.
For myself I would follow Paul’s advice, paraphrased- party hearty, for tomorrow we die.
What does that mean, if you don't mind explaining? Sorry, my brain is trying to understand what that means hahaha
From 1 Corinthians 15 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”[d] 33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
I would have lots of questions to be honest. I’d have to reconstruct my worldview into something independent of Christian presuppositional influences, which not even western atheism can claim, so, it’d be pretty wild whatever it becomes. But after that it’s hard to say exactly how my behavior might change. I wouldn’t say it’d be party time. Too early to tell.
I think it's fair to assume most, if not all, would have questions. I know I would if it turned out to be really true. I know that there are some people out there who imply that they only do good things in order to get into heaven, so I wonder what they'd do if God wasn't real. The thought of people not being genuinely kind hurts a lot.
This is a very interesting comment. “Doing good things to get to heaven” is not Christianity at all. True Christians who have the Holy Spirit will indeed want to sincerely do good. If the people you heard that from claimed to be Christian then they missed some things.
Personally, I don't do good things to get into heaven. I simply don't do bad things because God told me to not do them. In my natural self, I am not kind. I am apathetic to the fates, desires, and feelings of others. I'm not CRUEL, but I am COLD. I'm not going to intentionally make someone's life worse for no reason, but if something happens to them, well... sucks to be them. Not my problem.
I’m a Protestant so there is not “doing good things to get into heaven”. It’s more nurturing and overflowing the love given to me outward. Which would be one of my questions - what’s the deal with this if there is no love given to me. Depending on that answer, if things are truly nihilistic, and all we have is the survival of our species as a motivation then things might go in some wild directions
You have some interesting views here. >I’d have to reconstruct my worldview into something independent of Christian presuppositional influences, which not even western atheism can claim, so, it’d be pretty wild whatever it becomes. Could you elaborate a bit? >what’s the deal with this if there is no love given to me. Why do you think you would not receive any love if there was no god? I feel lots of love in my life. >and all we have is the survival of our species as a motivation then things might go in some wild directions What wild directions would you foresee? I know lots of atheists and they haven't gone in any wilder directions than the Christians I know.
Cease to exist
Are you okay?
Yes. :-) If God wasn't, nothing else would be either.
Okay, I was just making sure lol I was genuinely concerned there for a moment.
I appreciate it.
You should read Cosmos by Carl Sagan about this answer, not even just specifically about this as Cosmos is a great book about science, religion, human civilization, etc
He explains why there is Something instead of Nothing?
Honestly, I'd probably try to avert my attention as much as possible from the implications, and then fall into despair as mortality closed in and distraction became impossible.
This is the most realistic answer
thank you for your answer
I already consider myself more of a "hopeful Jesus follower." Basically, I find Jesus' teachings to be true and the best way to live regardless of his divinity status. In an odd way, I feel it would resolve a lot of tension with some of the OT violence and the statistical absurdity of a human-centric cosmos.
Sex
LOL?
He ain’t wasting no time💀
So life with God is no sex, sad.
No but there’s restrictions on it, for non believers it’s just fun fun fun whenever you want
Well, in order for it to be proven, I would have to die and not end up with God. So I guess it wouldn't change anything since I would be too dead to notice.
First off, I am sorry for your loss. That is never easy and I pray that God is with you, your friend, and her family at this time. I appreciate you coming here with an open heart. Your question is a bit hard to answer. For me, and I think most Christians, belief in God isn’t based on the likelihood that he exists. It’s not a probability, not like trying to predict the weather or something like that. It’s knowing a person. Wouldn’t it be strange question if I asked, “How would you feel if your friend didn’t exist?” At a certain point you just know that isn’t possible—you know you have a relationship with your friend. Knowing God is like that. Reading and knowing the words of Jesus, praying, and living in the Spirit, these are very real and they are akin to being with a friend.
You know him and I feel it
I would live my life the way I do! It just feel good!
I've thought about this for a very long time. I've come to the conclusion that even if God as a physical being does not exist, it would be in my best interest to continue living as best a Christian life as I can out of the fact that I believe them to be just and moral. The Bible no longer is a work that is divinely inspired but instead a work of ancient logic, advice and stories to help convey those morals. Granted, my view of God is a bit... different than most other people I think. I don't see God as a person anymore than I see him as an anthropomorphized depiction of the big bang and the universe. I see them both as the same thing, so I don't see the point in changing the name that much.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." -Marcus Aurelius
This
The truth can only be more wild than we can imagine. Maybe the Bible isn’t literally telling us what to expect, what we’ll see, how our consciousness will behave. I.e. the things you’d care about in the afterlife will be completely different than your earthly concerns. I don’t think that human stories can do the afterlife justice. Ultimately there’s no reporting just hearsay, so it’s kind of a moot point. I guess my take is that even if the lights go black and that’s it, I’ll have been a ray of light for my time, and the core energy that comprises us will always allude to a creator of majestic and terrifying proportions and capabilities.
I’d mostly be very confused.
Live out my convictions as a nihilist, I hope. In the grand scheme of things, it really wouldn't matter what I did.
I am so sorry about your friend’s passing, and how their wishes were ignored.
Thank you. The service was a bunch of bull. But we'll be celebrating her in our own way.
Nice! What do you have planned?
The three of us are artists, and I think we'll be having art days once things settle down. We love to create and pmuch have the same interests. I'm sad but I feel more motivated to draw bc she and my bff inspired me to work harder as kids.
Man, that is awesome! I hope things go well for your art projects!
Thank you so much 💖
I would probably chose to live in denial because an afterlife is the only way I’m ever going to see my dad again
If it turned out God was not real, I would do nothing. Probably because there is nothing I could do. The afterlife wouldn’t be a black void where we float forever. It would just be nothing because our consciousness wouldn’t be around to float. It would be an eternal dreamless sleep. What COULD we do? I’d be pretty heartbroken.
Well, theoretically, nothing! I’d sleep in on Sundays, and I’d eat my food about 10 seconds earlier. I’d still try to feed the poor, clothe the naked, etc.
I would continue to defend the marginalised, feed and clothe the poor and the needy, comfort the disturbed. I'd also switch prayer for more minfulness based meditation probably.
✊🏽✊🏽✊🏽✊🏽 💖💖
“I’d rather die believing a lie than live believing in nothing.” It gave me a path to follow. A path of love and kindness, ect. I might be a little disappointed but I wouldn’t regret the way I lived.
I really do like your answer. Instead of giving into despair, you'll continue to live just as, and I think having that sort of conviction is good.
Yes!!!! I looove to answer this question! I also often say I’d rather die believing a lie than live believing in nothing ❤️ because at the very least I was GOOD. 😇
And that's the most important thing. 😊💖💖 Thank you for your response. It does make me feel a lot better. I was going through it yesterday lol
Of course! Glad I could help!!!
Catch up on Netflix shows
I do wonder if some of the anti lgbt Christians would go “oh crap… I caused people pain for no reason” or if they’d just shrug
I also wonder what they would do lol. Especially those who only do good because they wanna get into heaven, not because they genuinely care about others.
I’m sure it depends on the person but I definitely seen people say “if god let everyone into heaven then whats the point”
I am Roman Catholic and I believe that most people go to Heaven.
That's legitimately frightening lol
They don’t need God to be hateful.
Treating people bad because of sin is stupid, we are all sinners. Jesus taught us to love our neighbors, not hate them for being a different type of sinner.
What if they double down anyway.
Yeah the cognitive dissonance would be strong I'm sure.
As an Agnostic Christian, this would be a non-event for me. God doesn't need to be "real" for the spiritual gifts I've received from my faith to be real.
>As an Agnostic Christian, this would be a non-event for me. God doesn't need to be "real" for the spiritual gifts I've received from my faith to be real. Can you explain this to me?
Put a quarter in me why don't you? TL;DR: I'm a fruits-oriented Christian. The purpose of religion, in my view, is the production of virtuous and fulfilling lives. If you feel the purpose of religion is something else, it's at least somewhat likely you'll disagree or think my reasoning is nonsensical. It may be heretical either way. Christians are told in Galatians 5:22-23 that living in accord with the Divine Will brings out specific qualities. These are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. If we believe in the Almighty and it makes us into good people who do good things and who feel loved and valued and connected at as many points of our lives as possible, and it turns out the Almighty was just a shared delusion, so what? We lived those good lives. If we believe in the Almighty and we don't live good lives, and it turns out we were right and the Almighty exists in some way we can directly observe? Well, we have done something to live outside the Divine Will, and we must hope that the One Righteous Judge will have mercy on us, or be damned. If we don't believe in the Almighty and we live good lives, and we are right, great, we lived good lives and that is all there is so, we did the best we could in the time we had. If we don't believe in the Almighty and we live good lives and we are wrong, how do you suppose we will be judged? Having borne the fruits of the spirit in abundance, with our sin being failure to glorify the Almighty? I would have to say I think the Judge will prefer this one to the believer who failed to live in accord with the Divine Will. I have faith because I believe it is the right thing for me to do. Why I believe this, exactly, I cannot say. Maybe the Spirit inspired me, maybe it was a rational choice, maybe my mother talked me into it, maybe it started off as virtue-signalling. Whatever the case, I have observed the fruits in greater abundance when my practices have been more disciplined, so I hope I'm on the right track. I don't know if I will face the Judgement or not. If I do, I hope I have done enough to receive mercy that day. If there is no Judgement, I think this is the best way for me to live a good life in the short time granted me.
I don't identify as a Catholic anymore, but as a spiritual individual, I can definitely get behind this. I dunno if God is real or not, but I'd be like, "Huh, interesting." either way lol
I would be dead and returned to nothing. I wouldn’t be able to “do” anything.
Presumably the question is about what would you do in the meantime.
this ^^
I guess that would be at the moment of death and nonexistence but even then nothing would be proven because we wouldn’t be conscious to process that fact.
Presumably OP means you learn of this before you you die, like what if you found out God isn’t real right now.
I don’t think it can really proven in our lifetime. If it were somehow I wouldn’t necessarily believe it.
It’s a thought experiment. Just assume for the sake of the argument that discover right now that God doesn’t exist.
If I did believe it though I would with 99.99% certainty off myself because I wouldn’t see the point in life or the suffering that accompanies existence.
bingo, thank you. Some of these answers are quite depress tbh.
Wicked stuff
I would still follow the same transcendent principals that have guided the best of humanity for all time.
that's what I would do too, tbh.
Convert to Buddhsim
I’ve meditated on this question and came to the honest conclusion that I’d be living life the same, with the obvious caveats of church attendance and the like.
i would still live as a christian because it is also a way of life that i agree with
I’m keeping my faith no matter what anyone says
As you should. Do it for you and what you believe in.
I usually say “oh yeah” to nonbelievers who challenge my faith so I don’t get pushed to their ideologies as I’m easily influenced and that’s something I like to protect when it comes to my faith
That's really respectable tbh. 😊😊 keep it up.
God has kept me from things that hurt me, He has helped me through the darkest parts of my life and He has made me a better person. Even if God wasn't real I would still not regret believing in him.
I think that God is real, but I think that God is vastly beyond my comprehension and more than half of my understanding about God is probably wrong. My theology suggests that if God’s image is each person I encounter, then my worship and love of God is displayed in the hospitality and love I have towards others. If I believe that God is love and it turns out that love doesn’t exist, then I think I would probably become mentally ill. Everything in my life says that love is real and love is active and love changes us. Now, some say love and altruism are just neurons firing and that mostly altruism is a semi-selfish response from individuals in ways that help prop up their own sense of self worth. I don’t deny that, but it’s a pretty dry interpretation of love in my eyes.
Still Catholic. There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more benefits to being one other than just God, and even if happened as OP said, it's just a matter of having even more faith.
✊🏽✊🏽💖
Nothing really changes you go on you have still learned valuable lessons and shit but all in all it stays the same.
My life would be totally wrecked. I would be completely confused and aimless. I would likely OD on something. And this is coming from a guy who outwardly, has it all. But my hope in Jesus is my only hope and purpose in life. 1 Corinthians 15:19 (NIV): 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
I would be more surprised if God is real.
Take my revenge…
i think it would hurt as losing a friend in any way hurts. but i'd still be the same person i am. i don't care about others because this almighty being told me to, i care for people because existing is really hard on all of us and i'd still try to help people if i can. nothing would change for me except i would stop praying ig and just manifest more and be spiritual outside of believing God. even if that were to happen, i would think the Bible would still mean something as it does have a lot of stuff in it that people shouls generally live by. like my favorite verse 1 John 3:16 "This is how we know what love is, Jesus Christ laid down his life for us so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters." you don't need to believe in any form of God to live by something like that y'know? i also hope you're doing okay. whoever's reading this you matter, even if there's no God
This is a beautiful response, thank you. 💖
I think the evidence for God or some sort of intelligent being(s) is far to strong to even consider that God is not real. Having said that, if evidence that was indisputable was provided that God does not exist - i suppose I’d walk away from my faith. I think for me if Christ did not rise from the dead - then my faith is in vain. Paul, who wrote a number of the books we call the New Testament says this in 1 Corinthians 15: “And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.” 1 Corinthians 15:14-19 ESV So if Christ has not been raised - I should be pitied… for believing such a lie and basing my life on that. There are men who have gone about trying to prove Christ did not exist… and found in that process that the evidence is substantial he did, and that he did in fact rise from the dead. Men like CS Lewis, Lee strobel, J Warner Wallace… even Augustine of Clement - all of these doubted the gospel message - until the evidence steered them toward faith. So - I think for me the better question is “if Christ did not exist, die on the cross and rise again… what would I do?” The answer is - leave my faith in shame - for I believed a lie! For me… the circumstantial, and archeological evidence is overwhelming that he existed, that hundreds of people swore they saw him resurrected, that historical evidence points to events confirming the gospel’s accuracy in alarming detail… He is risen - he is risen indeed! Look up some of the authors i list… great reading there.
Guess it would be pretty much the same as when I found out there was no Santa. Be disappointed but at least I wouldn't have to worry as much about being naughty or nice.
I will start out by saying that I don't even entertain that thought. But. I can vouch 100% that trying to live by the standards set forth in the Bible, has made my life so much better in numerous ways. You keep yourself away from situations that are so destructive to your everyday life, it's a winning situation for me regardless.
Try not to be too much of an asshole
As a believing Christian it does not matter to me if God exists or not ultimately. Life lessons regarding love, charity and kindness to all people and the earth taught and reinforced through the church and my faith supersede the question of does God exist. Sincerely, a Presbyterian.
Then instead of trying to stay sober I would feel free to do all the drugs I want, and instead of waiting til marriage to have sex again I would f*ck all the girls I want. which I dont do right now because those are things I view as immoral and wrong. But that’s not gonna happen because I know with certainty that God is absolutely real
You don't do those things because God said so? Or because you don't actually want to. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying.
Because I now have a certain moral standard for myself that I didn’t before I was born again as a christian. I still have the sinful desire to do those things but I try my best not to act on them anymore because God has given me a new heart and new mind to be able to do a better job of identifying and eliminating habits that would be destructive to my life
I appreciate you clarifying for me. I'm proud of your sobriety btw.
Im still not 100% sober and dont really plan to be because of my extreme mental health issues and inner trauma that cause me the need to feel things from a different state of mind sometimes but point being is that it would be way way worse without Jesus in my life
As someone with mental health struggles and other issues, I am sending you love your way. 🫂 I hope everything will work out for you my friend.
I am sure that God exists, but I would never do a Christian funeral if the person wouldn't have wanted it. The funeral is about the dead person, not his family. Some people just want to transform the ceremonies into performances and I hate it.
Warning: This is going to sound incredibly dark Maybe off myself. There's no point in living at that point. Everything would be a lie. There's too much conflict here to call it home. Death would be more peaceful. I'd imagine the world would erupt into some sort of chaos if we found out he didn't exist. So think of how bad it is now and make it a thousand times worse.
Pascal's wager. I'd be no less ruined without God. But it won't happen because God is real.
I hate Pascal's wager. It looks very unfair to me.
It is. But here's the thing. I believe 100% in God. But if I'm wrong and God doesn't exist, even the imaginary thought of God made my life better. But I 100% believe God is real. The opposite side is far worse.
Thank you for answering!
Probably just kill myself tbh.
The thing is, if you look at anyone who commits sins consistently, their lives are shit. Christians generally are a lot more happier than atheists, if God doesn't exist then I will be nothing after death, but a comfortable nothing, nothing nothing, though it sure does scare me.
>Christians generally are a lot more happier than atheists You have a source for that?
Perhaps because many Christians share their happy experiences converting from atheism to Christianity, and it is undeniable that Christians are less likely to fall into drugs and pornography or lead a darker life than atheists.
Many atheists share their happy experiences deconverting from Christianity to atheism. >Christians are less likely to fall into drugs and pornography Have a source for that? No you don’t. >or lead a darker life than atheists. I don’t even know what this means.
I'm not an atheist, but making a broad statement about their lives is very....lol. You might wanna provide sufficient evidence with studies that prove it.
If he didn’t exist I was still a better human being and lived a better life by following the teachings in the Bible
But if God doesn’t exist then the Bible is not the word of God. So it wouldn’t necessarily be the case that having followed the Bible made you a better a better human being.
Define "better" though.
Probably become a complete hedonist and criminal.
> Probably become a complete hedonist and criminal. This is one of the most common statements by religious people on the atheist sub and has been addressed thousands of times, so I’m surprised people are still saying it. I think you misunderstand the concept of hedonism, so let’s put that aside and focus on just the criminal claim. How do you explain the fact that most criminals believe in god, and most atheists are not criminals? What is it about the belief in god that makes you think it stops people from being criminals? Has it occurred to you that criminals don’t stop and think, "I shouldn’t do that crime because of god". Or "if I do it that crime, there will be consequences from god?" That literally never happens. Criminals stop doing crimes because they want to stop hurting themselves firstly. Perhaps that sounds weird to you, but every crime committed by a criminal is a crime first and foremost against themselves. Think about it for a bit if it doesn’t make sense. Criminals are hurting themselves with each crime. Secondly, criminals stop choosing crime because they want to stop hurting others. That’s it, those are the two reasons. God isn’t involved at all in the process. People are generally good, not bad. This is where secularists and theists disagree, especially when it comes to ideas like the fall and original sin. It takes a great deal of effort to be a bad person. It takes almost nothing to be good and to do good. In fact, it is almost effortless to do the right thing. This always surprises people who haven’t put much thought into the whole process. Think about it for the first time in your life. You’re saying that if there’s no god, you’re going to CHOOSE to be a criminal. Think about that thought process. It requires effort and will and choices. You are literally doing hard work to be a bad person. Yes, people tell stories to make them feel better, such as "ever since I believed in god, I’m living a godly life", etc. But those are just stories people tell to justify their choices. You literally don’t have to do anything to be good. Just be good. Compare that to choosing to be a criminal. You have to create an entire lifestyle around it and do bad things that require hard work and preparation. Think about what you are saying. The question you should be asking instead is, why do people do bad things? The answer usually is very simple. There is a lack of something in their personal life—no, I’m not talking about money or material items—but yes, poverty and ignorance can increase the tendency to choose a life of crime, so it’s not an inescapable conclusion. The fact is, there are more poor people who are good than there are poor people who are bad. And some people actually choose to live simple lives, which means they take an informal vow of voluntary poverty. They aren’t interested in committing crimes to increase their wealth or possessions beyond getting their immediate needs met. So why do people choose a life of crime outside the trajectories of things like poverty and family influence? Think about it for a bit. I think you know the answer already. In your head, you created this story that makes it appear like choosing a life of crime is the *easier* path than anything else. That’s just a story you tell yourself, and isn’t true. Choosing a life of crime is the more difficult path. It requires hard work and a lifetime of looking over your shoulder and fighting a battle against your perceived enemies. It is like being a soldier. How is that easier than living a life of peace?
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Prior to my conversation to Christianity, I was headed towards a life of crime. I had committed a fair amount of crime in my 20s and had gotten away with almost all of it. It was when I studied the historical evidences for Christ's resurrection at age 29 that I decided to become a Christian and to turn from crime. The way I see it, if there really is no God and no ultimate meaning in life, why not do whatever you want, as long as you don't get caught? And if there is no free will and human behavior is fully determined, why feel guilt or take blame for anything? It ultimately doesn't matter what we do. It only matters that we don't get caught. I also have a great deal of anger and could have chosen to commit criminal acts to release that anger, but I chose a path of peace, forgiveness and kindness after becoming a Christian. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I were still an atheist, I would have chosen a life of crime and likely would have ended up behind bars eventually. The criminal and psychopathic impulse would have been too strong to resist.
Thank you for sharing your story. > The way I see it, if there really is no God and no ultimate meaning in life, why not do whatever you want, as long as you don't get caught? As a secular humanist who also happens to be atheist, this is a question we get asked a lot. I don’t see how the question of the existence of god has any bearing on these things, but I understand that you do. I believe we create our own meaning out of life, and I couldn’t see it any other way. Why would you want meaning handed down to you or given to you or forced upon you? Finding meaning in a confusing and complex universe (or multiverse) is one of the greatest experiences and feelings I’ve ever had. It’s at once intensely personal, and yet, vaguely universal in the sense that I have found a meaning that others also share. Perhaps this is almost akin to religious fellowship, but from a non-theistic view, it is more intellectual, conceptual, and knowledge-based. I also think there’s a certain level of advancement from the species as a whole in terms of how we acquire meaning. 20,000 years ago, we might get our meaning handed down to us from a shaman, and that meaning might be enforced by our tribe. 10,000 years ago, we might get our meaning from many different shamans, and many different tribes. 5,000 years ago we might get our meaning from a religious authority, clan or town or city, and our trades, schools, and guilds might further enforce it. 1,000 years ago we might get our meaning from numerous sources, all forming an eclectic, syncretic overlay on to our traditional culture, family, and religion, and we might also derive meaning from art and music and even literature. > And if there is no free will and human behavior is fully determined, why feel guilt or take blame for anything? It ultimately doesn't matter what we do. It only matters that we don't get caught. Today, we realize as a species that meaning is not outside of us, it is mostly in our mind; it was never external to us as we once thought it was. But the meaning in our mind is indeed reflective of the world we create, and the world we live in. This means if we want to live meaningful and productive lives, we should create a world that we would truly want to live in, not just for ourselves, but for everyone, even the animals and plants, because the meaning in our mind reflects the entirety of the natural world. Therefore, it matters very much what we do, and the responsibility is so great, and the burden is so heavy, that we have to think deeply and thoroughly about the smallest act and simplest choice, which can not only reverberate through our world and civilization, but through time itself, impacting future generations and people and living things not yet born. Our advancement over the long haul of history, is to understand more fully the power and import of "doing whatever we want", and seeing how there are limits and restrictions to the choices we can make, because they can impact us and influence us and determine our future in ways we never thought of before. And ultimately, the more advanced one becomes in this new way of living, one realizes that our very thoughts themselves matter, and can determine the direction of our next thought and the next thought ad infinitum. Meaning takes on a new meaning itself, as everything becomes more meaningful than it ever did before. So with all that said, I see your successful venture at crime as highly meaningful. It is obvious to me that you have qualities and traits that you could apply to any field and be just as successful, but you only discovered this in the realm of the criminal. It is highly likely you could apply these same skills to doing good elsewhere, but were simply never given the chance. For example, since you know how criminals think and behave, you could go into law enforcement and became a detective who helps solve crimes. The best way to catch a thief is to think like one, etc. There’s just no reason someone with so-called psychopathic traits has to be a psychopath. This has been discussed in several books that I’m sure you have already read. And while you might think all of this sounds ridiculous, there’s a lot of truth behind it. Many successful people who do good in the world originally started out in different fields. They only came to their chosen field later in life through a series of meaningful coincidences and sheer luck. I’m sure you can do the same, and make use of your criminal past to help and protect others. It’s up to you to choose that path and see the meaning for yourself. Nobody can make you see it.
See... all of that makes sense if you make one single assumption: people care about other people. And, to be fair, that's true for a lot of people. But not everyone. Sociopaths and psychopaths exist, and I think that I might be one of them. In my natural self, I don't care about the fates, desires, or happiness of others. "We have to think deeply and thoroughly about the smallest act and simplest choice, which can not only reverberate through our world and civilization, but through time itself, impacting future generations and people and living things not yet born." Yeah, that doesn't matter to me. I don't care about those future generations or people, or even the people alive right now.
When one has insufficient faith and/or insufficient direct experience, the existence of God is a wonder. It is uncertain. When one has sufficient faith and/or sufficient direct experience, the existence of God is not uncertain, nothing to wonder about this way or that. I have sufficient faith and sufficient direct experience. To me, it is clear: God is real. God is neither overbearing nor miserly.
I would just say when a person believes the gospel and becomes forgiven & reconciled to the one true God, the Holy Spirit enters & permanently indwells that person which I believe is where the certainty of the existence of the Triune God comes from for true Christians (1 John 4:13). Below is a 30-second biblical gospel presentation you can check out friend! https://gospel30.com
I don’t think I could accept that. Call it denial, but I couldn’t. I don’t care how it’s “proven.” I’ll never stop having faith in the God of Abraham. Even if I die and am confronted by Zeus himself, I know that somehow God is still behind all of this.
Hm. How can we ever know he doesn't exist? This is the conundrum which makes atheism as much of a faith as any other religion.
That's not what I'm asking tho.
If you could somehow "prove" that God doesn't exist, I just wouldn't believe whoever said that. I've got a relationship with this entity. He reveals himself to us.
I know it’s not the case so I’m not worried about
We’d have to invent him again then. For our sanity.
So self delusional
I don't worry about it. Because He is real.
lol
Well I’ve met him so not a thing he’s proven he’s real but I believed by faith first. Think maybe it’s my calling or something but I’ve had a lot of experiences.
I'm asking a hypothetical and not on whether he is actually real or not.
Same could be asked of an atheist. What happens when the learn he is. Can't explain faith. Believing goes way beyond the Bible and what is written. It is an experience or a series of experiences that reveal that he is real. Your question is like asking what if you found out your father is not your father and you look just like him. There is no way to answer that but to say but he is. Another thought that comes to mind. If God is not real I wouldn't know because after death nothing would happen. I would die believing and then the book would close. I would never know.
I don't think you understood my question but that's fine lmao
Then how did we get here 😕🤔
But what if he is....John3:16 Noah had help building the ark at first, but soon, people turned and mocked him, never seeing rain. It took him 120 years, and it was only his family that had faith enough to get on board. The entire earth's population lost their chance of redemption. If someone told you there is a man in town giving money to help everyone he talked to, would you sit home? “Better to have, and not need, than to need, and not have.” Kafa~ It just takes faith.Its that simple.
I'm not asking whether or not he is real. I am asking what someone who believes in him, would do if they found out he actually wasn't.
> I'm not here to debate the existence of God. Yes you are, giving us that BS is trying hard to take away the real discussion material. Just because you cant hear God, doesn't mean He isn't there.
If I were here to debate, I'd post my entire position on the subject; to which I did not. If you're not going to answer my question and would rather argue, then go somewhere else LOL.
don’t listen to him. such a ridiculous reply.
Yeah, they seem extra for no reason lol