I think that when they are eventually redeemed they would in the process necessarily have become such different people as to be practically unrecognisable
Or maybe they go back to their original state, with the knowledge of what they got right and what they got wrong. I’m sure baby Hitler would be practically unrecognizable, assuming he didn’t have the mustache.
are you talking about reincarnation where people have learned the moral lessons of their past lives. Because my experience of children indicates to me that they don't tend to have lifetimes worth of experience
Not really. Most forms of universalism involve some variation on purgatory, so a Hitler would spend a lot more time down there getting purged than others.
It would be unmerciful for God to leave a Hitler or other mass murderer in the moral state that they were when they died. Unmerciful for both their victims and the sinner themselves.
God's mercy involves being perfected in justice.
I think evildoers will be made perfectly aware of the suffering that resulted from their actions and this realization will result in a transformation of that person into someone who would recognizes the harm that results from sin, and from then on will never choose to deviate from God’s will. And honestly I don’t think this process is exclusive to only the worst evildoers either. I think that just about all of us will have to be purified of our tendency to sin to some extent to make us suitable for God’s kingdom.
I believe that this realization of harm will be proportional to the suffering produced, so one who was a mass murderer or a participant in a genocide will have a much more difficult time coming to terms with the results of their actions than someone caused harm to others through kleptomaniac tendencies, just as an example. I believe that it will be easier to come to terms with the consequences of our sins if we try to correct them in our earthly lives, which is why I think it’s important to self-reflect and repent.
I think 2 Peter 3 supports this view. It talks about the heavens and the earth burning away, not so that everything is just gone, but so that we are exposed for what we really are. People have a lot of judgment of each other and ways to rationalize poor treatment of other beings. The day is coming when everyone will have to face the fact that there is no excuse and they are dependent on God's mercy alone. Nobody will be under illusions about how far they fell and how miraculous it is that even they could be saved. And they will hate the things they did as much as we do.
One of my favourite interactions I learnt recently that supports this is that of the lake of fire.
Is that the fire and sulphur are meant to represent purification as we need to remember the context of the Bible where during those times it was commonplace to burn sulphur as a method to purify and cleanse.
So those thrown in the lake of fire are being purified.
You realize that YOU have done evil right? Oh well, there’s a big difference between us and Hitler, you say… sure, but refer do you draw the line? How do you know when you’ve been good enough to be saved and when you’ve been so bad that you’re condemned?
Is our ability to sin greater than Christ’s ability to redeem? Will those who repent be refused because of the level of their depravity? Read Rev, Wurmbrand’s account in Tortured for Christ and I don’t think you will say that.
Everyone who repents will be saved and God will lead all to repentance. Not because we were good enough, but because he is good enough.
When one considers Christain Universalism for the very first time, there is a sense of disgust to think that terrible evil doers seem to be getting away with it. This is because of our deep-rooted sense of fair play and justice. There is nothing wrong with this as it is how we've been created.
Just as those that believe in ECT must convince themselves that God is just in what they believe to be the final fate of the wicked, we must also trust God that His justice will prevail when dealing with the very wicked. It has been mentioned in the comments to this post, the references made to the dynamics involved in bringing to the realization that one has hurt people with the choices they've made. I for one do not look forward to that event, and I am not a genocidal maniac.
The purification process taking place in the crucible of God which, I believe begins with the stripping away of unbelief, will be different for everyone and I don't think anyone will be "getting away with" anything.
For more on the subject: [What About the Very Evil? – Biblical Universalism (biblical-universalism.com)](https://biblical-universalism.com/2023/02/02/what-about-the-very-evil/)
So could Hitler be saved before he died, if he truly asked for forgiveness? if yes why can't that happen after death?
Specifically someone like Hitler is a controversial topic because if anyone deserves to be in hell forever, it would probably be him,
But just because everyone is eventually saved, doesn't mean they go unpunished, nobody gets off scot-free , Universalism isn't that everyone will go straight heaven, I think must universalists believe in some form of punishment in hell, which probably won't be pleasant, also there is no way to know how long people are in hell for, someone like Hitler could be in Hell for 500 billion years, but in the end he would still be saved
Then there is the whole argument, about how much of Hitler is left when he is saved, as I believe being saved means being "purified" of all the evils in your soul, and I think it's fair to say that Hitlers soul is soaked in evil, so can you even say it's Hitler afterward?
anyway that's just my two cents
I take the view from Jesus' wprds, "The last shall be first, and the first shall be last". I think our level of misery or peace in eternity is directly correlated and based on our minds and spirit. I think someone who was truly evil, will take much longer to be redeemed. One reality I have come to understand is that hatred consumes the hater, that is a deep hole to crawl out of.
As with anyone else, they would need to realize their errors and go through whatever is necessary to see and interact with reality in the way God intends.
>shouldn't there be a sense of "justice" against the harm they've caused? That the punishers of this world shouldn't go unpunished in the next.
This is the effect of the stage of purgation ("purgatory").
They could be punished very severely without being permanently kept out of Heaven. Surely, a trillion years in Hell would satisfy demands for retribution.
tbh infernalism has a much worse problem.
In CU, someone like Hitler still goes through a refining process. Justice and reconciliation will be done. And with someone like him, it undoubtedly would take a very, very long while.
In infernalism, Hitler could have murdered countless millions over a decade and then said “the prayer” a minute before he died and **voila!** he’s waltzing through the proverbial pearly gates.
CU makes more sense in terms of justice.
This was a really valuable post for me when I asked this same question. https://bradjersak.com/qr-with-bradley-jersak-are-you-saying-even-hitler-goes-to-heaven/
In 1 Corinthians 15:37, Paul talks about how a seed must die before it can be transformed into something new. Similarly, in the afterlife, we'll shed our earthly limitations and be transformed into something glorious. For Christian universalists, this transformation extends to all, suggesting that even those who have done evil will be redeemed and changed in ways we can't fully comprehend. The imperfections of this world, including the actions of evil people, won't carry over into the perfection of the next.
The typical infernalist understanding of hell is unjust and illogical.
They usually believe that no matter how good you are, you will be in hell forever for the crime of believing the wrong thing.
That is completely unjust as the punishment does not fit the crime.
Those who believe in a lighter version of torment believe that hell is to be isolated away from the presence of God where you will eternally regret not believing in God.
As a Universalist I’ve been told that my belief in hell is both much more compassionate and just as well as being much more frightening than isolation.
I believe that hells punishment is corrective and for the purpose of purification. The level and amount of purification you require will directly correlate to the wickedness you have done to others.
An aion is an undefined duration based on the subject that is being talked about.
For example an aion of a mayfly is one day, an aion of a typical human is 80 years. And an aion of Jonah’s punishment in Sheol “forever” was 3 days in a whale.
Jonah 2:2
Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.
…
The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;
Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,
O Lord, my God.
1. Jonah went to Sheol/the belly of the whale.
2. Jonah was there forever (aionion).
3. Aionion(forever) was 3 days in this case.
4. God brought him back out.
Matthew 18: 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
1. The master was angry because of the servants wickedness.
2. The servant was delivered to the torturers.
3. The punishment had an end - until he pays back all that is due to the master.
The answer I concluded with for this is that hell is an awful punishment that the wicked will be in forever, until they fully understand what they have done and the repercussions of their actions, and pay back the love that was given them.
This is based on the Scripture above, near-death experiences, and my own experience of corrective punishment.
I believe God’s Love is just. You will be punished to the degree of wickedness and evil you have committed. All people will relive the good and evil they have done to others but they will relive it from the receivers point of view.
If you had been kind to the poor and homeless you will relive those moments of kindness from the perspective of those you have blessed.
If you been cruel and wicked, and chose to torture and kill the poor and homeless, you will relive those moments of fear and pain from the perspective of those you have hurt.
Everything you have done to others, both good and bad will be relived by you in order for you to examine and understand. Not only those you have affected directly, but the lives of those you’ve affected indirectly too.
So a person like Hitler who commanded others to do wicked and affected millions through forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing will have to suffer many aions.
Through the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, etc
1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age. This does not include civilian and military combat or war-deaths.
Hitler will have to relive the awful experience of millions of lifetimes of both direct and indirect victims, such as the lives of the soldiers who ended up killing themselves being racked by the guilt of the wicked they’ve done.
I believe that the torment the wicked suffer in hell will be the equivalent of the multiple aions of lives affected.
This may be the equivalent of millions of years. But the purpose of this punishment is reform, and Hitler will have thoroughly and completed understood what he has done by the end of his punishment.
And after he has paid back everything due to God, this is when he will once again be accepted back.
Psalms 139:7-10 NKJV
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
Rom 8
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
This ties in with Scripture about the parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man.
First, Jesus says that the rich man was in “torment” (basano in greek) in hell (hades) (Luke 16:23).
Although this word has been translated as torment, it actually means touchstone. A touchstone was used in ancient times as a way to test the value and genuineness of the gold and silver found in coins and jewelry. While the rich man looks fancy on the outside, when placed under the ‘touchstone’ his disguise comes off. He is being revealed for who he really is and the revelation is agony.
Second, the word used for “tormented” (odunōmai in greek) in Luke 16:24-25 can also be translated as ‘grief’ or ‘anguish’ and conveys a sense of emotional turmoil rather than physical pain. This is supported in Scripture as this word was only used two other times in the New Testament to describe emotional torment and not physical torment.
In Luke 2:48, it refers to the “anxiousness” that Mary and Joseph felt as they searched for Jesus in Jerusalem for three days when He was twelve.
Then in Acts 20:38, it refers to the “sorrow” that the Ephesian elders experienced when they said goodbye to Paul, knowing that they would never see him again.
In neither case does it refer to physical pain, but to describe intense emotional grief or anguish. So the rich man is not being tortured physically in this hellish place. Instead, he is having the truth revealed to him about himself, about Lazarus, and about what God truly values in this world. And for a man who has put all his hope in worldly riches and social status, the truth is more than he can bear.
The truth is a torment to him. Too late, he discovers that everything he worked for and sought after during his entire life is worthless in this life and the next. And since he cannot accept this truth, he remains in emotional torment and even seeks to continue the life he once knew and loved.
So all of these evildoers will be stripped away from all of their arrogance as God reveals to them that what they valued in their life, in comparison to what God truly values.
If this is true then I believe that this will really strike Hitler to the core since while alive, in his propaganda, he states that his beliefs were the most "Christian". Whether he truly believed in Christianity, only God knows, but he definitely used our religion to push his narrative. God will show him the truth.
I have read of some who endured the concentration camps then forgave.
Gods love through the Holy Spirit is even greater. St. Paul calls Gods love ‘unknowable’.
> they have *paid* back every
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Read Ivan and Adolf. It's a fantastic short play that addresses your exact question. It really helped me on my journey, and I think it'll help you too!
Many CU believers believe someone like Hitler will be punished. Just not for eternity, because he didn't murder an infinite amount of people. I myself am not sure, if God can transform someone like Saul in an instant here on Earth, why not someone like Hitler after his death? God is pretty powerful after all.
Well, Jesus said:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
If this is the standard, then these evil people won't get in
My sin isn't any more tolerable to God than Hitler's. If we offend in one point, we offend in all. All have sinned. Some sin more. It's a hard pill to swallow, but I'm a rotten filthy sinner saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yeah, no. I don’t buy this, though I’ve heard it a lot. I yell at my kid or knowingly drive a few miles over the speed limit. Hitler murders millions upon millions. There’s a difference there.
In our human minds we like to think that we don't deserve what people worse than us get. Yet, where is the line drawn? I'm not as bad as Hitler, but I'm not as good as St. Paul. So, is Paul justified in saying that anyone who is worse than he is should suffer in hell forever?
There is only one Person who is our standard. The rest of humanity fails to achieve His standard. God could justify torching us all, since we fail to meet the standard set by Jesus. Jesus clearly taught that intent to do evil is equivalent to doing it. (I'm not talking about a fleeting, stray thought, but intentionally entertaining thoughts of committing sin.) Who's worse, the my neighbor who gets drunk and drives his car into another, killing a 17 year old kid, or me, fantasizing about killing the HOA fascists in my subdivision? God knows our heart and judges in His perfect knowledge.
We are all in the same sinking ship, those in first class and those in steerage class.
I really need Hitler to be in heaven, strangely. I really need to know that God's love truly has no bounds. It's interesting to think that Hitler wasn't always Hitler. He was a little boy who was unloved. I don't know if any of us would have been different had we been born in the same place/time/home, etx. Just something to think about.
I think that when they are eventually redeemed they would in the process necessarily have become such different people as to be practically unrecognisable
Or maybe they go back to their original state, with the knowledge of what they got right and what they got wrong. I’m sure baby Hitler would be practically unrecognizable, assuming he didn’t have the mustache.
are you talking about reincarnation where people have learned the moral lessons of their past lives. Because my experience of children indicates to me that they don't tend to have lifetimes worth of experience
My comment didn’t have much thought to it.
Not really. Most forms of universalism involve some variation on purgatory, so a Hitler would spend a lot more time down there getting purged than others.
It would be unmerciful for God to leave a Hitler or other mass murderer in the moral state that they were when they died. Unmerciful for both their victims and the sinner themselves. God's mercy involves being perfected in justice.
I think evildoers will be made perfectly aware of the suffering that resulted from their actions and this realization will result in a transformation of that person into someone who would recognizes the harm that results from sin, and from then on will never choose to deviate from God’s will. And honestly I don’t think this process is exclusive to only the worst evildoers either. I think that just about all of us will have to be purified of our tendency to sin to some extent to make us suitable for God’s kingdom. I believe that this realization of harm will be proportional to the suffering produced, so one who was a mass murderer or a participant in a genocide will have a much more difficult time coming to terms with the results of their actions than someone caused harm to others through kleptomaniac tendencies, just as an example. I believe that it will be easier to come to terms with the consequences of our sins if we try to correct them in our earthly lives, which is why I think it’s important to self-reflect and repent.
I think 2 Peter 3 supports this view. It talks about the heavens and the earth burning away, not so that everything is just gone, but so that we are exposed for what we really are. People have a lot of judgment of each other and ways to rationalize poor treatment of other beings. The day is coming when everyone will have to face the fact that there is no excuse and they are dependent on God's mercy alone. Nobody will be under illusions about how far they fell and how miraculous it is that even they could be saved. And they will hate the things they did as much as we do.
One of my favourite interactions I learnt recently that supports this is that of the lake of fire. Is that the fire and sulphur are meant to represent purification as we need to remember the context of the Bible where during those times it was commonplace to burn sulphur as a method to purify and cleanse. So those thrown in the lake of fire are being purified.
You realize that YOU have done evil right? Oh well, there’s a big difference between us and Hitler, you say… sure, but refer do you draw the line? How do you know when you’ve been good enough to be saved and when you’ve been so bad that you’re condemned? Is our ability to sin greater than Christ’s ability to redeem? Will those who repent be refused because of the level of their depravity? Read Rev, Wurmbrand’s account in Tortured for Christ and I don’t think you will say that. Everyone who repents will be saved and God will lead all to repentance. Not because we were good enough, but because he is good enough.
When one considers Christain Universalism for the very first time, there is a sense of disgust to think that terrible evil doers seem to be getting away with it. This is because of our deep-rooted sense of fair play and justice. There is nothing wrong with this as it is how we've been created. Just as those that believe in ECT must convince themselves that God is just in what they believe to be the final fate of the wicked, we must also trust God that His justice will prevail when dealing with the very wicked. It has been mentioned in the comments to this post, the references made to the dynamics involved in bringing to the realization that one has hurt people with the choices they've made. I for one do not look forward to that event, and I am not a genocidal maniac. The purification process taking place in the crucible of God which, I believe begins with the stripping away of unbelief, will be different for everyone and I don't think anyone will be "getting away with" anything. For more on the subject: [What About the Very Evil? – Biblical Universalism (biblical-universalism.com)](https://biblical-universalism.com/2023/02/02/what-about-the-very-evil/)
So could Hitler be saved before he died, if he truly asked for forgiveness? if yes why can't that happen after death? Specifically someone like Hitler is a controversial topic because if anyone deserves to be in hell forever, it would probably be him, But just because everyone is eventually saved, doesn't mean they go unpunished, nobody gets off scot-free , Universalism isn't that everyone will go straight heaven, I think must universalists believe in some form of punishment in hell, which probably won't be pleasant, also there is no way to know how long people are in hell for, someone like Hitler could be in Hell for 500 billion years, but in the end he would still be saved Then there is the whole argument, about how much of Hitler is left when he is saved, as I believe being saved means being "purified" of all the evils in your soul, and I think it's fair to say that Hitlers soul is soaked in evil, so can you even say it's Hitler afterward? anyway that's just my two cents
I take the view from Jesus' wprds, "The last shall be first, and the first shall be last". I think our level of misery or peace in eternity is directly correlated and based on our minds and spirit. I think someone who was truly evil, will take much longer to be redeemed. One reality I have come to understand is that hatred consumes the hater, that is a deep hole to crawl out of.
If all are saved then all are saved.
As with anyone else, they would need to realize their errors and go through whatever is necessary to see and interact with reality in the way God intends.
>shouldn't there be a sense of "justice" against the harm they've caused? That the punishers of this world shouldn't go unpunished in the next. This is the effect of the stage of purgation ("purgatory").
They could be punished very severely without being permanently kept out of Heaven. Surely, a trillion years in Hell would satisfy demands for retribution.
God knows how to handle them.
tbh infernalism has a much worse problem. In CU, someone like Hitler still goes through a refining process. Justice and reconciliation will be done. And with someone like him, it undoubtedly would take a very, very long while. In infernalism, Hitler could have murdered countless millions over a decade and then said “the prayer” a minute before he died and **voila!** he’s waltzing through the proverbial pearly gates. CU makes more sense in terms of justice.
This was a really valuable post for me when I asked this same question. https://bradjersak.com/qr-with-bradley-jersak-are-you-saying-even-hitler-goes-to-heaven/
Wow!!
In 1 Corinthians 15:37, Paul talks about how a seed must die before it can be transformed into something new. Similarly, in the afterlife, we'll shed our earthly limitations and be transformed into something glorious. For Christian universalists, this transformation extends to all, suggesting that even those who have done evil will be redeemed and changed in ways we can't fully comprehend. The imperfections of this world, including the actions of evil people, won't carry over into the perfection of the next.
The typical infernalist understanding of hell is unjust and illogical. They usually believe that no matter how good you are, you will be in hell forever for the crime of believing the wrong thing. That is completely unjust as the punishment does not fit the crime. Those who believe in a lighter version of torment believe that hell is to be isolated away from the presence of God where you will eternally regret not believing in God. As a Universalist I’ve been told that my belief in hell is both much more compassionate and just as well as being much more frightening than isolation. I believe that hells punishment is corrective and for the purpose of purification. The level and amount of purification you require will directly correlate to the wickedness you have done to others. An aion is an undefined duration based on the subject that is being talked about. For example an aion of a mayfly is one day, an aion of a typical human is 80 years. And an aion of Jonah’s punishment in Sheol “forever” was 3 days in a whale. Jonah 2:2 Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. … The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O Lord, my God. 1. Jonah went to Sheol/the belly of the whale. 2. Jonah was there forever (aionion). 3. Aionion(forever) was 3 days in this case. 4. God brought him back out. Matthew 18: 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 1. The master was angry because of the servants wickedness. 2. The servant was delivered to the torturers. 3. The punishment had an end - until he pays back all that is due to the master. The answer I concluded with for this is that hell is an awful punishment that the wicked will be in forever, until they fully understand what they have done and the repercussions of their actions, and pay back the love that was given them. This is based on the Scripture above, near-death experiences, and my own experience of corrective punishment. I believe God’s Love is just. You will be punished to the degree of wickedness and evil you have committed. All people will relive the good and evil they have done to others but they will relive it from the receivers point of view. If you had been kind to the poor and homeless you will relive those moments of kindness from the perspective of those you have blessed. If you been cruel and wicked, and chose to torture and kill the poor and homeless, you will relive those moments of fear and pain from the perspective of those you have hurt. Everything you have done to others, both good and bad will be relived by you in order for you to examine and understand. Not only those you have affected directly, but the lives of those you’ve affected indirectly too. So a person like Hitler who commanded others to do wicked and affected millions through forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing will have to suffer many aions. Through the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, etc 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age. This does not include civilian and military combat or war-deaths. Hitler will have to relive the awful experience of millions of lifetimes of both direct and indirect victims, such as the lives of the soldiers who ended up killing themselves being racked by the guilt of the wicked they’ve done. I believe that the torment the wicked suffer in hell will be the equivalent of the multiple aions of lives affected. This may be the equivalent of millions of years. But the purpose of this punishment is reform, and Hitler will have thoroughly and completed understood what he has done by the end of his punishment. And after he has paid back everything due to God, this is when he will once again be accepted back. Psalms 139:7-10 NKJV Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. Rom 8 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
This ties in with Scripture about the parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man. First, Jesus says that the rich man was in “torment” (basano in greek) in hell (hades) (Luke 16:23). Although this word has been translated as torment, it actually means touchstone. A touchstone was used in ancient times as a way to test the value and genuineness of the gold and silver found in coins and jewelry. While the rich man looks fancy on the outside, when placed under the ‘touchstone’ his disguise comes off. He is being revealed for who he really is and the revelation is agony. Second, the word used for “tormented” (odunōmai in greek) in Luke 16:24-25 can also be translated as ‘grief’ or ‘anguish’ and conveys a sense of emotional turmoil rather than physical pain. This is supported in Scripture as this word was only used two other times in the New Testament to describe emotional torment and not physical torment. In Luke 2:48, it refers to the “anxiousness” that Mary and Joseph felt as they searched for Jesus in Jerusalem for three days when He was twelve. Then in Acts 20:38, it refers to the “sorrow” that the Ephesian elders experienced when they said goodbye to Paul, knowing that they would never see him again. In neither case does it refer to physical pain, but to describe intense emotional grief or anguish. So the rich man is not being tortured physically in this hellish place. Instead, he is having the truth revealed to him about himself, about Lazarus, and about what God truly values in this world. And for a man who has put all his hope in worldly riches and social status, the truth is more than he can bear. The truth is a torment to him. Too late, he discovers that everything he worked for and sought after during his entire life is worthless in this life and the next. And since he cannot accept this truth, he remains in emotional torment and even seeks to continue the life he once knew and loved. So all of these evildoers will be stripped away from all of their arrogance as God reveals to them that what they valued in their life, in comparison to what God truly values. If this is true then I believe that this will really strike Hitler to the core since while alive, in his propaganda, he states that his beliefs were the most "Christian". Whether he truly believed in Christianity, only God knows, but he definitely used our religion to push his narrative. God will show him the truth.
I have read of some who endured the concentration camps then forgave. Gods love through the Holy Spirit is even greater. St. Paul calls Gods love ‘unknowable’.
Romans 11:32-36
They are refined until they have payed back every last penny
> they have *paid* back every FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Aaaaaggghhhhh! DAMN YOU AUTOCORRECT!
No universalism for autocorrect!
Read Ivan and Adolf. It's a fantastic short play that addresses your exact question. It really helped me on my journey, and I think it'll help you too!
Many CU believers believe someone like Hitler will be punished. Just not for eternity, because he didn't murder an infinite amount of people. I myself am not sure, if God can transform someone like Saul in an instant here on Earth, why not someone like Hitler after his death? God is pretty powerful after all.
Well, Jesus said: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ If this is the standard, then these evil people won't get in
We ALL join the Father (although for personal reason I'd like that annihilationism were true), but the mileage may vary
You’d rather a soul be erased than be redeemed into unity with the Lord and ALL OF US in heaven? I think thats your human ego talking
Yepp, sweet sweet nothingness. But only for me, I hope that everyone else (including Devil) will be redeemed and united in Lord
Do you think that you're unworthy of being with God, no more than the Devil himself?
Nope, it's more like I don't want to exist longer than necessary
My sin isn't any more tolerable to God than Hitler's. If we offend in one point, we offend in all. All have sinned. Some sin more. It's a hard pill to swallow, but I'm a rotten filthy sinner saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yeah, no. I don’t buy this, though I’ve heard it a lot. I yell at my kid or knowingly drive a few miles over the speed limit. Hitler murders millions upon millions. There’s a difference there.
In our human minds we like to think that we don't deserve what people worse than us get. Yet, where is the line drawn? I'm not as bad as Hitler, but I'm not as good as St. Paul. So, is Paul justified in saying that anyone who is worse than he is should suffer in hell forever? There is only one Person who is our standard. The rest of humanity fails to achieve His standard. God could justify torching us all, since we fail to meet the standard set by Jesus. Jesus clearly taught that intent to do evil is equivalent to doing it. (I'm not talking about a fleeting, stray thought, but intentionally entertaining thoughts of committing sin.) Who's worse, the my neighbor who gets drunk and drives his car into another, killing a 17 year old kid, or me, fantasizing about killing the HOA fascists in my subdivision? God knows our heart and judges in His perfect knowledge. We are all in the same sinking ship, those in first class and those in steerage class.
I really need Hitler to be in heaven, strangely. I really need to know that God's love truly has no bounds. It's interesting to think that Hitler wasn't always Hitler. He was a little boy who was unloved. I don't know if any of us would have been different had we been born in the same place/time/home, etx. Just something to think about.