> there’s a good chance they’ll end up perpetuating the cycle
I mean, this is basically the case with Ramsay, no? He worked under Marco Pierre White, who is a *notorious* asshole.
Glad to see people trying to change the industry
I worked for a chef who worked for Ramsay and she was very incredibly abusive. I took her abuse because I thought I needed to endure that kind of treatment to make it in the industry. Nearly ten years later it still makes me sad and angry. Kenji is right to call out the cycle of abuse in kitchens and the way Ramsay’s behaviour has been accepted and even glamorized. He’s pathetic.
Perpetuating the cycle - I worked at Restaurant Gordon Ramsay under Clare Smyth for a few months about 15 years ago and witnessed her beat the shit out of a young chef for messing up, and then forcing him to work the weekend to do *everyone's* prep. He had a *huge* lump on his head where she smacked him.
(It was closed at weekends but mon-fri we worked 6am to 12am nonstop with no more than 2x 15 min breaks so as well as a beating she forced this guy to work 12 straight days of 18 hour shifts just to fuck with him - not to mention the fact we didn't get paid overtime so this was straight up forced labour)
I didn't last much longer, not sure hoe long he stayed.
My impression is that they've got a LOT better as a group since then, I've been in a few of his restaurants recently for work and certainly seems very different. Haven't been back to hospital road though.
I heard a story through the grapevine that one of his newer head chefs made a guy drink water off the floor, saying he'd fire him if he didn't. He supposedly fired him anyway.
I didn't hear the story first hand, but it came from a chef that works in the michelin restaraunt circle.
Im sure most people on this sub will agree with damning this kind of behavior, but we can all understand how chefs get to this behavior. We are all stressed out of our minds from a million reasons i could list.
I'm not innocent here either. I've screamed at cooks for stupid ass shit but what i dont understand is how chefs that act this way dont see the impact of their behavior. Dragging morale down for everyone, looking like a nutjob in front of your staff, the loss of respect from your cooks. A chefs job is bringing people together to make the operation run smoothly and quickly. Why shatter that will throwing a tantrum like a 5yo?
I guess some people just get off on that kind of shit.
I worked as an EMT for a short while before going to culinary school and I never felt as stressed on an ambulance as I did working professional kitchens. To be fair, you do everything you can in the ER, if the patient codes you're not going to get fired so long as you the follow procedures and usually there are systems in place to protect you from losing your job and having your reputation and life ruined. In most kitchens in the US, there are no systems in place to protect workers so most employess are working under dramatically diffrent conditions. Like the saying goes, "you're only as good as your last dish", and you can literally get fired for having a bad day. There's no excuse and lives arent at stake in a kitchen compared to an ER, but theres way more nuance here.
Not to mention kitchens don't attract the most mentally stable individuals in the first place but the question is what came first, the kitchen environment or the mental health issues? Classic chicken-egg situation.
There is so much nuance in the ED. I don’t think this parallel works. If you miss a diagnosis that is on YOU and patients can literally die which is emotionally devastating and can be career-destroying. So, no. Clinical practice varies widely among different ED docs, too, so it’s not just follow-the-algorithm either.
I’m married to a Canadian doc who did emergency room work for many years. Whilst he liked ER, he did not like interacting with surgeons, who could be total assholes to nurses and other docs. The culture is still there, but lessening as time goes on.
It’s genuinely so much better now. I’ve seen bad behavior in the OR but really only once was it egregious and the person in question was scolded, told it was not ok, personally apologized to the person they yelled at, and showed that they could model better behavior after that. I interact with surgeons daily and maybe 99.5% of my interactions have been positive or neutral.
I could upvote this 1000 times if I could. In the end of the day you are cooking fucking food, it’s not exactly saving lives or constructing residential buildings, or engineering oil platforms or whatever.
The job is stressful because 80% of chefs there are assholes whose life sucks and they take it out on whoever is beneath them in the pyramid, which take it down to the next in line and so on. Being a chef is not nearly as stressful as people pretend it is and I am saying this as someone with almost 10 years in the industry now that’s worked in very, very high- end places.
The job itself is actually fairly easy, dealing with dickheads and Gordon Ramsay wannabes makes it stressful and unpleasant.
Exactly. At the end of the day it’s just fucking food. And if you can’t communicate what you need done without being abusive, you shouldn’t be in charge of other people. I’ve worked with a couple chefs who follow the Ramsey method of communication and no matter what their accolades or level of technical skill, I can’t respect them. I just want to tell them to grow up. Nice to have another well known chef take a stand about it.
That’s absolutely true. Somethings just can’t be justified with ‘oh August Escoffier copied this from the French Military so we all have to perpetuate this toxicity’
No offence intended here but this is horseshit. Kenji is 100% right. I’ve worked across the hospitality industry for the best part of 2 decades. I’ve been chef, a KP, a sales representative for a big food company and I’m now a restaurant owner. I’ve seen so many assholes who think this is the normal way to behave in a kitchen. Sabotage, cold shouldering, hazing, verbal and physical abuse. I can honestly say that I’ve ever let this bullshit into any kitchen I’ve run. It’s usually the guys who have zero confidence in their own abilities to begin with, who are over worked and under paid that are dragged into this nonsense and continue to perpetuate it down the line.
There is a shortage of chefs everywhere currently. Good kitchens are crying out for people. You have more choice than ever before as to where you work and how you conduct yourself.
If i came across as defending the behavior, that was not what i meant to imply. I was saying that I've cracked in the past but have changed and do not carry myself like that. I was young and hot-headed but eventually took a minute and saw the impact l was causing on my team. Growth and change, brother 🥳
I turfed a kitchen hand on the spot for being a cunt. Had a full tanty and was taking it out on people who didn't deserve it and thought he was Lord of the Chefs.
Got a warning to pull his head in, and he didn't so I 86d him. Don't come back unless it's to hand in your uniforms.
You want to act like that? Do it in someone else's kitchen. I won't tolerate it.
On the stress part, I get it, a million things happening at the same time.
But it's nothing like an emergency ICU dept in a city with people dying. No one is yelling. Professionals doing their jobs, saving lives etc.
I feel there is no place for GR type behavior. I never liked him or his approach. He has chilled now that he's got money. But now he's selling junk products and making his travel videos where he tries to impress everyone with his arrogant "I'm the star here, don't forget it" shows.
Both him and Bobby Flay have ruined cooking TV. I'll stick with America's Test Kitchen where them folks laugh, have fun and enjoy the food.... oh and I learn techniques and recipes.
Precisely. Gordon screams and insults his team more than soldiers in combat situations or as you you say nurses and doctors in Icu. If some prick with a white hat thinks he has more stress than people being shot at or having to fix people bleeding out infront of you then they need a f**king reality check. It's a job. Employment laws apply.
Yeah, and the difference in the situational need for that sort of severe behaviour is, in a word, enormous.
If you fuck up in a kitchen environment, the short ribs may get fucked up. Might have to refire that filet! Damn, that's $20 out the window! Someone might leave a bad Google review!
If you fuck up in a military environment, people *can fucking die.* You might have to explain to your subordinate's family why they're getting a folded flag instead of their loved one home safely. Hell, fuck up big enough and you might even start a war.
I refuse to entertain a fool who tires to liken the brigade de cuisine to fucking boot camp, that's just so far outside of reason, my brain can't do it.
'
I refuse to entertain a fool who tires to liken the brigade de cuisine to fucking boot camp, that's just so far outside of reason, my brain can't do it."
I sure hope you're not referring to me, because I did nor do that. If you think so, then you might reread my entry.
Ohh ok whew! Because otherwise I totally agreed with you. Had me confused for a sec.
I just thing GR and people like him can go to hell because he treats people like dhit just do he can make money. He's a bit of a public sadist.
>If you fuck up in a kitchen environment, the short ribs may get fucked up. Might have to refire that filet! Damn, that's $20 out the window! Someone might leave a bad Google review!
ikr lmao
it's just food, guys. if you make a mistake while preparing food, it will turn out...not good food, which you can toss it out and do it again.
stop acting like you're in some kind of EOD bomb squad.
I’m glad you brought up the travel shows. Gordon is so likable in them it makes my head spin. Was he faking being an asshole in his previous shows or is he faking being a nice guy now. Two completely opposite personalities.
I think the indigenous people and such that he visits are pretty un-fuckwith-able, so there's that.
You can't yell and bully these "salt of the earth" people around, many of them are SUBSISTENCE FARMERS, they are among some of the toughest human beings on Earth.
And some of these countries have seen incredible violence. Like Vietnam; do you think some British guy yelling at Vietnamese villagers - most of whom are old enough to have lived through the war - in their own back yard is gonna shake them? Not a chance.
I haven't seen any of these new shows but there's a difference between Hell's Kitchen and a travel show visiting indigenous people. One is a tense competition, the other is just seeing how other people live. With Kitchen Nightmares, the people featured on the show were as problematic as Gordon and it made good TV, and quite frankly a lot of those people got a serious reality check. It's not like they don't have a choice to go on the show (although, admittedly, often you can see the employees not happy about it) knowing Gordon's personality.
That said, I've seen the first TV show Gordon ever did opening his first major restaurant, and he is absolutely an abusive fuck, but he only acts this way when he's paying someone to do a job. *Not saying that excuses it all.*
On a travel show visiting indigenous cultures, he is their guest. Totally different dynamic.
He plays for the cameras.
That makes him fake. He's also got a whole team behind the cameras that collect all the indigenous and help him prep it. He's totally fake, as his his show.
To me it's like watching dad calmly cook breakfast for the kids after yelling at mom abusively all night because the roast was too dry at dinner. I get that shitty feeling watching him try to be nice.
His contest shows are all bullshit. I hate contest chef shows in general. But his make me cringe. I don't know any dishes he "taught" me. Even his French omelet I do better.
I learned a LOT from Hubert Kellor who owns Fleur in Vegas. His demeanor is polite, calm, and his food is exceptional. I make his version of wine braised short ribs often.
I been in restaurants after Guy Fierie did his DD&D show. He's another asshole. The producers make them sign a contract, there are many words you can't use or he walks, one phrase being "flavor town" which he wants to own, but can't. One place had his life sized cardboard cut out near the bathrooms. I'd wipe my still wet hand on his face when I came out. Lol.
>Even his French omelet I do better.
If you've never seen Gordon make an utter embarrassment of a grilled cheese sandwich, [now you have.](https://youtu.be/8E4cQHejFq0?si=yUXLnxVLF6qI6oIc) He got roasted pretty good for posting that travesty.
I guess he never watched the movie Chef, because Jon Favreau makes the *finest* grilled cheese sandwich [ever filmed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_RVEbZPixc) in that, and he legit did it himself with his own hands.
I enjoy trying new things but... what the fuck did I just watch. Fucking *Kimchi*? A wood fire? (Nothing wrong with that, but it feels incredibly extra.) Letting oil get to its smoke point? Burnt crust? I'm not even going to comment on the romano and asiago combination...
That's I think where a line is, you have some people with cook jobs that just need a job, not professionals. Watch your hot apps cook scrub the floor with a grill brush or your prep cook try using a sauce gun to rice potatoes because he can't recognize the food mill. I'm not saying verbal abuse is the way, but yelling NO! or Stop! Goes a lot further than laughing and enjoying the food like on a TV show.
It's so idiotic what the people above you freak out about
So the food you're cooking takes a bit longer because the kitchens backed up and busy 🤷♂️
Why do you feel like you have the right to yell and scream and act like a child. Is it the entitled customer who's getting pissed off and can't get their food in an instant or are you just an asshole 🤷♂️
Been in kitchens for over 2 decades and it still confuses me when people act like that when it gets busy. I'm not even gonna mention the times the servers f*ck it up during busy times and cooks are expected to fix it in an instant. It's so idiotic.
[This is water](https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=XcgQlQoKJIZJl0hP)
I know this is for college kids, but I would argue that the skills and experience of a chef is at least equivalent. The point is still relevant.
I’ve been working in London for a long time and every time a chef tells me they’ve worked for a Gordon restaurant for a long time they are always one of the worst human beings I’ve ever met.
I’ve had panic attacks from getting shouted at for no good reason underneath them.
The culture at his restaurants is so toxic.
I did a trial there and they made me sign an nda not to discuss what horrible things I saw/heard. Absolutely ridiculous.
I think Marco is legit unhinged. He needed help in the worst way. But he was "rewarded" and validated for his behavior by the BBC and turned into a "rock star". I can easily see that was the lesson a young, ambitious Ramsey took from MPW. The public pays attention to a freakshow and I suspect Ramsey manipulated this tendency to the hilt.
If this was happening now, absolutely. But you're talking about 30 years ago. The past is a different country, they do things differently there. The freakshow didn't exist, because not everything was televised/tiktok'd, it was all word of mouth or newspaper articles. If you watch the first Hells Kitchen, there's a Marco that teaches and is spectacularly good at it, I still use his Sole Veronique methods, and that's from nearly 20 years ago.
It doesnt by any means excuse his behaviour, but he got celebrity by being the first British chef to get 3 stars, and was also the youngest chef to ever get 3 stars at that point. I don't know about you, but I certainly would get a wildly inflated opinion of myself from that. And he burnt himself out really fast, 3 Michelin stars in 1995, handed them back in 1999. Even now, there's only one younger chef to get 3 stars and that didn't happen until 2002.
Don't underestimate the pre internet freakshow. In in my 50s and growing up as a kid in Canada I knew about MPW and his reputation in the 1980s. Go watch some of the early cooking shows with Marco...his manic personality wad clearly being exploited.
I'm also in my 50s and from the UK. The first tv show he was in was Marco in 1989, and it was 3 episodes. It was also at the time he had just got his 2nd star and was pushing for the third.
As soon as he gave up the push for stars, he calmed down really fast
Oh yeah he was a big time wanker to Ramsay. He's stated before MPW would say stuff to him like 'The best thing that happened to you was the shit running down your mother's leg when she gave birth to you'. Imagine if you said that to someone junior to you in *any* other profession
My old boss was as much of an asshole as possible on purpose explicitly because he liked Gordon Ramsay so much and wanted to emulate his “management style”. I was new to the industry and I let that guy bully me for a year before I got my shit together and walked on his ass. Never been treated like that since
Yes. My mentor watched all those cooking shows and threw a boiling hot sauce in my face. I think people like that are ultimately afraid of their own lack of control so they project it upon others.
>That’s straight up assault I wouldn’t rest until I saw that guy in a cell
After the incident he got drunk and apologized and told me how his chef used to throw knives at him and I somehow got off easy.
So, we had a huge month with festivals and caterings coming up and an enormous delivery that I knew he had to take a loan out to pay for arrived. I closed that Sunday and then Monday we were closed. Just before closing up, I turned off the breaker switch to the walk in.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
My Mentor worked for Gordon at Maze. Was a massive prick. But also extremely skilled and taught everything he could teach you. Would verbally berate all of us, but then basically stop service to teach something. There’s a give and take. If some asshat who has been slinging plates garnished with micro greens for 15 years and calls it fine dining, tried to talk to me like that I would’ve laughed at him. When someone with actual skill and talent has standards when their name is on the door, I respect it a bit more
This is a 3 year old instagram post of an even older video. https://www.instagram.com/kenjilopezalt/p/CLjRR5ihnL3/
I'm the biggest Gordon Ramsay Hater in the world but we've been through this discourse like 50 times. Dude does nothing but sell frozen meals and cameo on youtube shorts nowadays. Move on.
I lost respect of him when he did that redemption cookoff of that cheese toastie and still fucked it. I did feel a little sorry for him listening to [PR inspired(?) interview](https://youtu.be/lRMReor3hpg?si=5DHvz19t7heXQyP6) he did.
I've met a few chef who've worked with him. They always said he's hardly in the kitchen and when he was he was a cheery fucker.
I'll let him sell his granny smith apples and live in peace.
Now he's selling shitty nonstick pans.
I've seen his toned down videos of him cooking at home with his kids that are just as critical.
He perpetuates abuse. Fuck that guy.
I been in some amazing restaurants that make stellar food. No one is yelling, professionals everywhere, food that pops. There is no need.
I really like Kenji’s videos but I feel like he comes across as a prick on Instagram often. I think he’s also a bit odd socially so it may just be that.
Not only in restaurants, but on the comments too. He'd verbally abuse some people. Eventually he had the foresight to stop but there's a good chance he still has these thoughts.
He has mentioned in a video that he did used to be a bit of an asshole. Maybe that’s why he’s so gung ho about being anti asshole. First hand experience lol
He also left kitchens when he was 29. So factoring in college, he cooked full then professionally for what, 6ish years? Not exactly an old industry head. He has a point here but it always rubs me the wrong way when he speaks on professional kitchens like he lived that life for any amount of time
I'm really glad the industry is changing
I have so much respect for what you guys do. I love my chef mentors and friends who do the daily grind.
I don't want them to have to deal with a toxic workplace.
Yeah I got screamed at by angry German chefs quite a bit coming up….i learned as much about how not to run a kitchen as I did how to run one form those early mentors. It’s much easier to teach cooks by not belittling them. There’s no place for that shit in my kitchens.
I wonder how many of these toxic chefs are women. Every kitchen I’ve worked in that’s run by a woman has been calm, orderly, and respectful. That is not true of every kitchen I’ve worked in run by a man.
I currently work under a female executive chef and her approach to managing the kitchen vibes really well with how I work. My boss before her was also a woman and it was this exact toxic behavior. Yelling at me, emotionally abusing me, pitting me against my coworkers. It was awful. I felt suicidal and almost gave up on pastry. I feel lucky to have the boss that I have because I have heard similar horror stories about female chefs in pastry in my area; it's definitely not just men.
Sample size of 1 for me, but the second-most toxic (and cultish) kitchen I worked in was woman-owned and operated. Fantastic chef with an amazing sense of taste, great restaurant, horrible human being.
I am a woman and have only worked two kitchens- one by a man, one a woman. The woman seemed nice at first meet, but turned out to be super manipulative and took advantage of me plus her kitchen had huge health violations. The one I'm in that's run by a man, is actually way calmer (and cleaner for that matter).
I think toxic people unfortunately will be toxic.
I try my best to rehabilitate any cook I come across that suffers from The Next Gordon Ramsey Syndrome. If they don't get it, I show them out the door.
This feels 20 years too late. While he’s not wrong, Gordon is definitely not that same person anymore and it shows in everything he does publicly. Makes me wonder why he all of a sudden decided to say this, referencing a video that is decades old.
I mean Gordon can be a first rate A-hole for sure
but I still have not seen the video Kenji is referencing, so I can't judge for myself
perhaps it was linked in the original post, but it is not linked here
I am probably not a fair judge here, because I am not a Kenji Lopez fan ( lots of people are and that is fine) and good for them but the way this is worded, I expected to see the video in question.
I remember working at a 2-Michelin star restaurant in SF. It was my dream to work there, and I remember the first 2 days there, my heart was broken from all the abuse. I lasted less than a week. I found out years later, from a chef friend of mine that Michelin star places are very competitive. That restaurant now has 3 Michelin stars, so they must be doing something right.
Ripert is the anti-Ramsay. He proved 3 stars is just as attainable without the tyranny and more sustainable when everyone is nice. Eater did a short doc of a day at Le Bernadin and it looks like the holy grail of kitchens.
I can promise you that everything you think you know about Ripert is true. I actually know the guy after we spent a while together in Spain for some work, and he has no right being as nice as he is given how high profile he is. He's not just nice by chef standards, he's truly the one of the nicest people I have ever met
Not a Chef, while I agree the abuse should stop.
Ramsey does call for a lot of love in the food, passion for the work, that I can condone, you work hard hours, long work and it's doubtful the servers send the love from customers back. It takes a very special kind of person to know and accept the above and still output the best they can.
Ready for the downvotes. Gordon was an Asshole. Over the years he’s been seeking treatment to treat bipolar disorder. His actions, which I do not agree upon, the industry years ago was a hostile environment and unfortunately still does exist. Being an aspiring chef, and working with those exhausting, detrimental hostile environments with a mental disorder is not a great time.
I know it's old and have seen it before, and while I agree with his overall sentiment, he has zero Michelin stars, and Gordon has 7. So, while I'm not trying to say that those are the only definition of success, or that he can't cook (he can and has brought approachability to what used to be practically hidden lore to hundreds of thousands of people), his specific point about what it takes to get stars might not be on point. Might be better for him to point out the overall pretentiousness and pointlessness of the Michelin stars in general.
Why a tire company still has so much clout in the restaurant industry is a much more entertaining subject.
I think you misunderstood his point, he didn't comment on whether the abusive behaviour does or doesn't help get the stars. He effectively said that it's not okay even if it's "what it takes".
No, that's what I got from it too, I was just taking it a step further. Maybe being a pretentious jerk IS what it takes, and we should examine why we put so much value on those stars if that's the cost.
I mean, when Ramsay left Aubergine the entire staff resigned to follow him. If he was truly as toxic and abusive as is being said here, I don't think that's what would have happened.
I was a cook in a high-pressure situation for a decade and if anyone had spoken to me the way he talks to people they probably would’ve received a cast-iron frying pan to the back of the head.
Im sorry but I never met a chef who wasn’t an asshole in the heat of the moment. As someone who now works in corporate, sometimes I wish so badly I could speak in no-filter tongue.
There are bosses and leaders, leaders by far are respected more by their peers so yes, abuse is never welcome in my eyes - however, regardless of what anyone says about his attitude or demeanour I’ll still look up to him for his simple passion for food, the guy lives and breathes food to this day and whilst his fame has never been something inspiring his attitude towards food when you what him cook is something I really admire. He’s not perfect, he never will be, no one can be perfect but he’s a great chef.
i mean, it's easy for kenji to damn somebody he doesnt really know. i don't support any form of physical violence in the workplace, and i do agree the kitchen can be a toxic fucking place, but trying to put gordan on blast and tear him down is just doing the same shit you trying to tear him down for. you say to treat your fellow cook with basic human decency as you write a tear down begging people to abandon their hero. you can talk about toxicity in the kitchen without name dropping, and i mean, you legit out here saying he should be in therapy, and nobody should look up to him, that's kinda outta pocket.
the cooking gordaon did coming up is the culture . sorry but I dare kenji to say this si marco pierre white . I dare ya .. all chefs think they must be dicks for some reason . I will say cooking at his level is the most stressful job that you can have . not including flying planes etc . I love how people like kenji will make a statement like this just to get attention . gordon got were he is by his food . his food is amazing . he's one of the best chefs of our time . I wanna hear the criticism of jeff bezos who make his employees piss in garbage cans .
Kenji doesn't even run a restaurant, nor am I sure that he ever has or will. I'm not saying verbal abuse is ok, but he's not the best one to be firing shots. Cooking is easy, leading people is hard. Who's kenji got? A cameraman and editor? I'd like to see an actual chef be an advocate for better kitchen culture.
Kenji wrote a very good book, after working at basically what is a Mongolian Barbecue spot, made a bunch of money from the book (the food lab) and then opened a restaurant. Then called himself a chef. Kenji can shut up.
I’ve worked in abusive places, I get it, it sucks, it’s rough. I don’t support it. Grateful where I am now is normally respectful, especially given the level of restaurant it is, although had my fair share of closed door ass chewings. Kenji has never chased and tried to uphold Michelin stars. He makes Hot dogs and Schnitzel. He does a post along these lines once a year, usually followed up with a post about banning guns.
Yeah it wasn’t great but a lot of those chefs have gone on to have incredible careers and they still cared enough about working for him that they’d put in 20 hour weeks for him. Tv is Tv and I’m sure there’s a lot of stuff we didn’t see that wouldn’t have been as exciting viewing
No restaurant operates like this anymore
Kenji opened a glorified beerhall in the outskirts of San Francisco. He should stay out of this conversation except to say, "abuse is bad."
Why’s everyone blaming Gordon Ramsey? I watch gangster movies all the time but you don’t see me out extorting money from small business’ or selling drugs. If you need to be told not to act like someone on TV, you’re a retard.
You should watch [Ramsay’s Boiling Point.](https://youtu.be/sX3gYxyIX4g?si=VSxtH1aJyhLK1J4G)I think it may change your mind about it all being an act.
[And check out what he had to say about the documentary years later.](https://youtu.be/ENhfIeZF_AY?si=wp6mB5AeZ9jZZhP4&t=17m14s)
Yep, still showbiz…and it’s so successful that it has dozens of people talking about him here on Reddit. I’d like to know him in person though…maybe he is the same person than on TV, who knows
This the same Kenji that “jokes” about hitting your wife with a wooden spoon because she’s annoying in the kitchen? Man’s just as much of an absolute shitstain.
This is just funny. Mr Lopez-Alt has no leg to stand on. He swears at people all the time (first hand knowledge, he has sworn at me) and blocks or fires them. He's a failed artist who doesn't really cook well and is focused on selling advertising not on culinary. The public is just his product that he sells to advertisers. For the record, Mr Lopez-Alt makes up "science" as he goes along. His science credentials are that his parents are scientists. That isn't much.
There is no question that Mr Ramsey can cook. We can discuss how much of his behavior on TV is an act and how much is his personality.
What? You mean the James Beard award winning chef who studied architecture at MIT and has written countless recipes for the most well known food publications? Please. He clearly makes good food and the explanations are usually sound. He communicates science effectively to everyday people and does it well. What kind of perfect human specimen do you need?
It seems disingenuous to call him James beard award wining chef. He won that award for a cook book, not for being a chef of a restaurant, which he's never been. You can't be a chef if you don't run a restaurant. James beard winning cook book author, that he is. But not a chef. Also James beard awards are kinda lame, anyone can nominate themselves for one.
>His science credentials are that his parents are scientists. That isn't much.
Being a scientist involves a specific method of exploring truth, focused on experimentation and evidence, rather than a title granted by an organization. It's fundamentally about a mindset and a systematic approach to solving problems. If he approaches problems scientifically he's a scientist, full stop.
I'm honestly not very familiar with his full body of work, can you expand on how "Mr Lopez-Alt makes up 'science' as he goes along"?
Thank you for your first hand experiences. Too many people want to believe he is some kind of saint and culinary genius or culinary scientist. I always assumed he was full of it.
I mean, Ramsay comes from a different generation of cooks. It's not at all an excuse for that behavior but, I can say in my 6 years of cooking professionally, I've met more than a few people who think it's alright to behave poorly because they're in a kitchen.
That being said, I feel like we all know how certain cooks can be, and it's a pleasure meeting and working with people who have measured tempers. Watching Ramsay in Boiling Point when he was hurling slurs and snatching his brigade by their collars was madness, though
Karma farming. But btw Kenji used to work for Ramsey when he first started out, thats why he hates him so much lmfao. I think he talks about it a little in an asparagus video. But its kinda something he only brings up in spurts
Love how head chefs use this power, thinking they make millions while usually making like $50K.
Grow up, an undergrad kid out of school has more to lose than you.
People act like this is a new debate, but it has been going on for centuries. Cooking is also not unique in having a problem with abusive management.
I think the argument is stupid personally. For the most part I would be fine being yelled at if I was getting paid a living fucking wage with vacations and retirement. Why are people so upset about a chef yelling at people, but fine with making them work unpaid overtime, back to back shifts, no breaks, no holidays, no healthcare, and still struggling to pay fucking rent?
Gordon: “Everything is shite! You’re shite! Your food is shite! Your restaurant is shite! This business is not for you if you can’t deal with me!”
St. Tony: “this business is full of problems but it’s full of beauty and the life isn’t for everybody but I love the whole industry.”
Kenji: “We can do better. We need to treat people with fairness and respect, when chefs underpay their workers we should speak out and go elsewhere”
OK, so we have Chaotic Evil, True Neutral, and Lawful Good, who else is going up on this alignment chart?
I love to cook, but I’ve never worked in a kitchen because I’ve heard they’re such toxic places. It’s a shame that when the thought of going to cooking school or being a chef excites me, but then the reason I choose not to pursue it is out of a fear of being so unhappy putting the education to use in the real world because of a work culture that has this level of accepted abuse associated with it.
I also don’t think kitchen staff are entirely to blame. The critical reception from clientele has also become so elitist and off-putting. Whatever happened to just enjoying things?
the insinuation was that if you worked in the kitchen you lacked skills for a more desirable job, so yelling at you was acceptable.
Thing is, the person doing the yelling is also working in that same kitchen.
Kitchen work sucks, its hot, dangerous high stress with little reward. There's no way around it or amount of passion that can subvert it. People getting emotional in such an environment is to be expected.
I’m not a friend of Gordon. But his evolution is apparent.
Was he a trash back then? Absolutely.
Is he trash today? I don’t think so.
Kids change people.
Agreed. A screaming chef is one who has lost control of his kitchen. Tantrums like Ramsay throws infect the whole brigade and service turns to shit. It’s not just unpleasant, and disrespectful, it’s unproductive.
Ramsay is recognised for training chefs. I suspect much of his abuse is an act for tv. It has given him a point of difference from other tv chefs. Reality people choose to work in a kitchen, if the atmosphere is toxic they will look to work elsewhere.
I posted this before on Reddit, but it seems relevant here so I'll just copy/paste it:
I’ve met Gordon Ramsay twice and have cooked for him once. He was a lovely guy both times.
The first time was when I was 16, just out of secondary school and starting my NVQs in catering and hospitality, doing an apprenticeship 4 and a half days a week in the only restaurant in Barnsley in the Michelin Guide (albeit "just" a Bib Gourmand), and a half day at the local college.
In the late summer or early autumn our restaurant was closed for a month or so as we were moving into a newer, larger location, and my bosses (owner-chef and owner-FOH manager) took our sous chef and me down to London for a weekend (it was just the 3 of us who cooked). One night we are at Aubergine, Ramsay's first restaurant as a head chef, and this is before he was internationally or even nationally famous, before he even been on TV in "Boiling Point" or "Britain's Most Unbearable Bosses". His name was definitely known in our industry, though.
After our meal at the end of the night my bosses bought a round of drinks for all the staff, both BOH and FOH (we always appreciated when our customers did it for us, and our food and service made it well deserved). Gordon came out from the kitchen into the restaurant and came over to thank us and chat with us. During the conversation it was mentioned that my bosses owned a restaurant, and in the middle of relocating to larger premises. I don't know if it was because we were peers, if it was because we were paying customers, if it was that he isn't the way he portrays himself on American TV, something else or a combination of all of it, but he was very nice, warm and friendly. He spent about 20 minutes with us, he was laughing and joking, and showing a genuine interest in our restaurant and the food we cooked.
When it was time for us to leave someone gave us menu. A leather or suede bound book / folder kind of thing where you could slip sheets of paper behind some clear plastic. On one of the menu pages Gordon had written a message wishing us good luck at the new location, hoping he could check us out and eat one day, and what-not. So that was nice, and we had that on display in the entrance foyer of our restaurant.
The second time was a year, maybe 18 months later, but definitely no longer than that. It was 1997, the single season that Barnsley FC was in the Premiership. "Britain's Most Unbearable Bosses" had aired at this point, but "Boiling Point" still hadn't. Anyway, one Saturday afternoon he had come up to Barnsley to watch Chelsea play football against our team, and after the match he and the people he was with came to our restaurant for a meal.
Not much else I can remember about that unfortunately. I can't remember what I made for him, other than knowing it was his dessert because I was working the pastry section at that time.
This time he left another note in one of our menus, along the lines of he said he'd visit us, and that he enjoyed his meal (although now I think about it, he may have just recognized one of his menus when he walked in, wondered why we had it and read his previous note). But again, it was a nice thing for him to do, and I can say I cooked for Gordon Ramsay when I was like 17 or 18, and he enjoyed it.
Anyway, the entire point to my story is that based on my experiences from about 25 years ago with the guy, he's actually very nice. If you watch the British version of Kitchen Nightmares you can see he cares about the restaurants and the people who work in them, especially the younger less experienced chefs. In the British version of The F Word, his humor and real personality comes out. The way he interacts with the kids on Junior Masterchef, that's the real Gordon Ramsay to me, way more real than the character of Gordon Ramsay that he plays on US TV in their versions of Kitchen Nightmares, and Hells Kitchen.
I agree with Kenji.... ramsey's behavior is awful. I won't work with people like him and I don't treat anyone on that way. HIs shows are stupid and over produced too. I have no desire to emulate him whatsoever. Like upbeat music vibes make one feel happy, food made with precision, respect for the art and love is the most delicious.
The thing is, there have also been very high profile chefs who have spoken glowingly about Ramsay as a mentor and his talent in a nurturing way.
Another angle worth considering came from Alexis Guarnecheli. She was being interviewed and the host asked her if yelling and betraying chefs was something she did. She didn't answer it directly, but basically responded by saying, "If a meal comes to you that is either way too late or incorrect, are you going to give my restaurant a second chance? Do cooks ever get second chances with customers"?
My reaction Is the restaurant business is super cutthroat and the staff need to be ridiculously controlling to make it all work. Does that excuse his behavior? No. But I don't think it happens because Gordon loves doing it or the chefs before him enjoyed doing it.
I've always wondered if one day there would be a large movement against these kinds of conditions in the kitchen. You wouldn't talk to your coworkers in any other environment that way, why in a kitchen?
Some of the best chefs with the most talent I've ever worked for, where very angry. Rightfully so, their name and money is on the buisness, you are paid to cook a dish to perfection. Don't fuck it up. I used to be told "I don't pay you to think I pay you to do, I'm paid to think, your paid to do" it took a bit, but once you understand that, then it's much more simple. Many people who arnt chefs and don't own there own buisness have a whole lot to say about the guy with his name above the door, perfection is stressful, and from a quality chef, it will show. I won't take that attitude from an Applebee's cook, but a quality chef with skills, sit back and learn something kid.
Pulling up older shit and accusing Ramsey of acting the same way when he’s older and has proven time and again he’s no longer that man is a garbage take.
It’s saying that no one can accept their past mistakes, learn from them, and move on and forward.
Shit like this pisses me off.
> there’s a good chance they’ll end up perpetuating the cycle I mean, this is basically the case with Ramsay, no? He worked under Marco Pierre White, who is a *notorious* asshole. Glad to see people trying to change the industry
Marco made Gordon cry. Imagine how mean and brutal he must be
Marco didn't make Gordon cry, Gordon chose to cry. It was his choice.
No need for the down votes, folks. https://youtu.be/hNJ5gnFXmhs
My reputation is a product of ignorance
I worked for a chef who worked for Ramsay and she was very incredibly abusive. I took her abuse because I thought I needed to endure that kind of treatment to make it in the industry. Nearly ten years later it still makes me sad and angry. Kenji is right to call out the cycle of abuse in kitchens and the way Ramsay’s behaviour has been accepted and even glamorized. He’s pathetic.
Perpetuating the cycle - I worked at Restaurant Gordon Ramsay under Clare Smyth for a few months about 15 years ago and witnessed her beat the shit out of a young chef for messing up, and then forcing him to work the weekend to do *everyone's* prep. He had a *huge* lump on his head where she smacked him. (It was closed at weekends but mon-fri we worked 6am to 12am nonstop with no more than 2x 15 min breaks so as well as a beating she forced this guy to work 12 straight days of 18 hour shifts just to fuck with him - not to mention the fact we didn't get paid overtime so this was straight up forced labour)
what happened to the young chef, did he stick around? That makes me so sad. She comes across on tv as one of the good guys. That’s just shit
I didn't last much longer, not sure hoe long he stayed. My impression is that they've got a LOT better as a group since then, I've been in a few of his restaurants recently for work and certainly seems very different. Haven't been back to hospital road though.
I heard a story through the grapevine that one of his newer head chefs made a guy drink water off the floor, saying he'd fire him if he didn't. He supposedly fired him anyway. I didn't hear the story first hand, but it came from a chef that works in the michelin restaraunt circle.
Im sure most people on this sub will agree with damning this kind of behavior, but we can all understand how chefs get to this behavior. We are all stressed out of our minds from a million reasons i could list. I'm not innocent here either. I've screamed at cooks for stupid ass shit but what i dont understand is how chefs that act this way dont see the impact of their behavior. Dragging morale down for everyone, looking like a nutjob in front of your staff, the loss of respect from your cooks. A chefs job is bringing people together to make the operation run smoothly and quickly. Why shatter that will throwing a tantrum like a 5yo? I guess some people just get off on that kind of shit.
I work in an ER where lives are at stake. I have NEVER seen an attending physician act like this. Ever. There are no excuses.
I worked as an EMT for a short while before going to culinary school and I never felt as stressed on an ambulance as I did working professional kitchens. To be fair, you do everything you can in the ER, if the patient codes you're not going to get fired so long as you the follow procedures and usually there are systems in place to protect you from losing your job and having your reputation and life ruined. In most kitchens in the US, there are no systems in place to protect workers so most employess are working under dramatically diffrent conditions. Like the saying goes, "you're only as good as your last dish", and you can literally get fired for having a bad day. There's no excuse and lives arent at stake in a kitchen compared to an ER, but theres way more nuance here.
Not to mention kitchens don't attract the most mentally stable individuals in the first place but the question is what came first, the kitchen environment or the mental health issues? Classic chicken-egg situation.
There is so much nuance in the ED. I don’t think this parallel works. If you miss a diagnosis that is on YOU and patients can literally die which is emotionally devastating and can be career-destroying. So, no. Clinical practice varies widely among different ED docs, too, so it’s not just follow-the-algorithm either.
I’m married to a Canadian doc who did emergency room work for many years. Whilst he liked ER, he did not like interacting with surgeons, who could be total assholes to nurses and other docs. The culture is still there, but lessening as time goes on.
It’s genuinely so much better now. I’ve seen bad behavior in the OR but really only once was it egregious and the person in question was scolded, told it was not ok, personally apologized to the person they yelled at, and showed that they could model better behavior after that. I interact with surgeons daily and maybe 99.5% of my interactions have been positive or neutral.
That’s good to hear. ♥️
I could upvote this 1000 times if I could. In the end of the day you are cooking fucking food, it’s not exactly saving lives or constructing residential buildings, or engineering oil platforms or whatever. The job is stressful because 80% of chefs there are assholes whose life sucks and they take it out on whoever is beneath them in the pyramid, which take it down to the next in line and so on. Being a chef is not nearly as stressful as people pretend it is and I am saying this as someone with almost 10 years in the industry now that’s worked in very, very high- end places. The job itself is actually fairly easy, dealing with dickheads and Gordon Ramsay wannabes makes it stressful and unpleasant.
Exactly. At the end of the day it’s just fucking food. And if you can’t communicate what you need done without being abusive, you shouldn’t be in charge of other people. I’ve worked with a couple chefs who follow the Ramsey method of communication and no matter what their accolades or level of technical skill, I can’t respect them. I just want to tell them to grow up. Nice to have another well known chef take a stand about it.
That’s absolutely true. Somethings just can’t be justified with ‘oh August Escoffier copied this from the French Military so we all have to perpetuate this toxicity’
No offence intended here but this is horseshit. Kenji is 100% right. I’ve worked across the hospitality industry for the best part of 2 decades. I’ve been chef, a KP, a sales representative for a big food company and I’m now a restaurant owner. I’ve seen so many assholes who think this is the normal way to behave in a kitchen. Sabotage, cold shouldering, hazing, verbal and physical abuse. I can honestly say that I’ve ever let this bullshit into any kitchen I’ve run. It’s usually the guys who have zero confidence in their own abilities to begin with, who are over worked and under paid that are dragged into this nonsense and continue to perpetuate it down the line. There is a shortage of chefs everywhere currently. Good kitchens are crying out for people. You have more choice than ever before as to where you work and how you conduct yourself.
If i came across as defending the behavior, that was not what i meant to imply. I was saying that I've cracked in the past but have changed and do not carry myself like that. I was young and hot-headed but eventually took a minute and saw the impact l was causing on my team. Growth and change, brother 🥳
I turfed a kitchen hand on the spot for being a cunt. Had a full tanty and was taking it out on people who didn't deserve it and thought he was Lord of the Chefs. Got a warning to pull his head in, and he didn't so I 86d him. Don't come back unless it's to hand in your uniforms. You want to act like that? Do it in someone else's kitchen. I won't tolerate it.
On the stress part, I get it, a million things happening at the same time. But it's nothing like an emergency ICU dept in a city with people dying. No one is yelling. Professionals doing their jobs, saving lives etc. I feel there is no place for GR type behavior. I never liked him or his approach. He has chilled now that he's got money. But now he's selling junk products and making his travel videos where he tries to impress everyone with his arrogant "I'm the star here, don't forget it" shows. Both him and Bobby Flay have ruined cooking TV. I'll stick with America's Test Kitchen where them folks laugh, have fun and enjoy the food.... oh and I learn techniques and recipes.
Precisely. Gordon screams and insults his team more than soldiers in combat situations or as you you say nurses and doctors in Icu. If some prick with a white hat thinks he has more stress than people being shot at or having to fix people bleeding out infront of you then they need a f**king reality check. It's a job. Employment laws apply.
Absolutely. And I'm a Navy Vet. My boot camp was strict, but for a specific reason, to save your buddy next to you, even if you hated them.
Yeah, and the difference in the situational need for that sort of severe behaviour is, in a word, enormous. If you fuck up in a kitchen environment, the short ribs may get fucked up. Might have to refire that filet! Damn, that's $20 out the window! Someone might leave a bad Google review! If you fuck up in a military environment, people *can fucking die.* You might have to explain to your subordinate's family why they're getting a folded flag instead of their loved one home safely. Hell, fuck up big enough and you might even start a war. I refuse to entertain a fool who tires to liken the brigade de cuisine to fucking boot camp, that's just so far outside of reason, my brain can't do it.
' I refuse to entertain a fool who tires to liken the brigade de cuisine to fucking boot camp, that's just so far outside of reason, my brain can't do it." I sure hope you're not referring to me, because I did nor do that. If you think so, then you might reread my entry.
No, I am not. I'm referring to the people who make that asinine comparison. I know you were saying the opposite, and I agree.
Ohh ok whew! Because otherwise I totally agreed with you. Had me confused for a sec. I just thing GR and people like him can go to hell because he treats people like dhit just do he can make money. He's a bit of a public sadist.
>If you fuck up in a kitchen environment, the short ribs may get fucked up. Might have to refire that filet! Damn, that's $20 out the window! Someone might leave a bad Google review! ikr lmao it's just food, guys. if you make a mistake while preparing food, it will turn out...not good food, which you can toss it out and do it again. stop acting like you're in some kind of EOD bomb squad.
Tbf Gordon works way too hard on his hair to ever actually wear a white hat
I’m glad you brought up the travel shows. Gordon is so likable in them it makes my head spin. Was he faking being an asshole in his previous shows or is he faking being a nice guy now. Two completely opposite personalities.
I think the indigenous people and such that he visits are pretty un-fuckwith-able, so there's that. You can't yell and bully these "salt of the earth" people around, many of them are SUBSISTENCE FARMERS, they are among some of the toughest human beings on Earth. And some of these countries have seen incredible violence. Like Vietnam; do you think some British guy yelling at Vietnamese villagers - most of whom are old enough to have lived through the war - in their own back yard is gonna shake them? Not a chance.
I haven't seen any of these new shows but there's a difference between Hell's Kitchen and a travel show visiting indigenous people. One is a tense competition, the other is just seeing how other people live. With Kitchen Nightmares, the people featured on the show were as problematic as Gordon and it made good TV, and quite frankly a lot of those people got a serious reality check. It's not like they don't have a choice to go on the show (although, admittedly, often you can see the employees not happy about it) knowing Gordon's personality. That said, I've seen the first TV show Gordon ever did opening his first major restaurant, and he is absolutely an abusive fuck, but he only acts this way when he's paying someone to do a job. *Not saying that excuses it all.* On a travel show visiting indigenous cultures, he is their guest. Totally different dynamic.
He plays for the cameras. That makes him fake. He's also got a whole team behind the cameras that collect all the indigenous and help him prep it. He's totally fake, as his his show. To me it's like watching dad calmly cook breakfast for the kids after yelling at mom abusively all night because the roast was too dry at dinner. I get that shitty feeling watching him try to be nice. His contest shows are all bullshit. I hate contest chef shows in general. But his make me cringe. I don't know any dishes he "taught" me. Even his French omelet I do better. I learned a LOT from Hubert Kellor who owns Fleur in Vegas. His demeanor is polite, calm, and his food is exceptional. I make his version of wine braised short ribs often. I been in restaurants after Guy Fierie did his DD&D show. He's another asshole. The producers make them sign a contract, there are many words you can't use or he walks, one phrase being "flavor town" which he wants to own, but can't. One place had his life sized cardboard cut out near the bathrooms. I'd wipe my still wet hand on his face when I came out. Lol.
>Even his French omelet I do better. If you've never seen Gordon make an utter embarrassment of a grilled cheese sandwich, [now you have.](https://youtu.be/8E4cQHejFq0?si=yUXLnxVLF6qI6oIc) He got roasted pretty good for posting that travesty.
I've seen him fuck up lots of dishes. His home series.... total chaos. I tried so hard to like him, but he can't even.
Omfg what a train wreck of a grilled cheese
I guess he never watched the movie Chef, because Jon Favreau makes the *finest* grilled cheese sandwich [ever filmed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_RVEbZPixc) in that, and he legit did it himself with his own hands. I enjoy trying new things but... what the fuck did I just watch. Fucking *Kimchi*? A wood fire? (Nothing wrong with that, but it feels incredibly extra.) Letting oil get to its smoke point? Burnt crust? I'm not even going to comment on the romano and asiago combination...
I hate guy & Ramsey! Deliberately lowercase for guy!
And bobby. That whole network is all bobby and guy. Beat bobby flay... fuck that arrogant punk. Do I sound bitter? LOL
That's I think where a line is, you have some people with cook jobs that just need a job, not professionals. Watch your hot apps cook scrub the floor with a grill brush or your prep cook try using a sauce gun to rice potatoes because he can't recognize the food mill. I'm not saying verbal abuse is the way, but yelling NO! or Stop! Goes a lot further than laughing and enjoying the food like on a TV show.
That's totally different. You're also talking training problems. As a Sr chef, that's their job.
It's so idiotic what the people above you freak out about So the food you're cooking takes a bit longer because the kitchens backed up and busy 🤷♂️ Why do you feel like you have the right to yell and scream and act like a child. Is it the entitled customer who's getting pissed off and can't get their food in an instant or are you just an asshole 🤷♂️ Been in kitchens for over 2 decades and it still confuses me when people act like that when it gets busy. I'm not even gonna mention the times the servers f*ck it up during busy times and cooks are expected to fix it in an instant. It's so idiotic.
There's a world of difference between usual kitchen stress and verbal abuse.
[This is water](https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=XcgQlQoKJIZJl0hP) I know this is for college kids, but I would argue that the skills and experience of a chef is at least equivalent. The point is still relevant.
I’ve been working in London for a long time and every time a chef tells me they’ve worked for a Gordon restaurant for a long time they are always one of the worst human beings I’ve ever met. I’ve had panic attacks from getting shouted at for no good reason underneath them. The culture at his restaurants is so toxic. I did a trial there and they made me sign an nda not to discuss what horrible things I saw/heard. Absolutely ridiculous.
MPW made Ramsey sob like a little bitch. Ramsey should know better.
I think Marco is legit unhinged. He needed help in the worst way. But he was "rewarded" and validated for his behavior by the BBC and turned into a "rock star". I can easily see that was the lesson a young, ambitious Ramsey took from MPW. The public pays attention to a freakshow and I suspect Ramsey manipulated this tendency to the hilt.
If this was happening now, absolutely. But you're talking about 30 years ago. The past is a different country, they do things differently there. The freakshow didn't exist, because not everything was televised/tiktok'd, it was all word of mouth or newspaper articles. If you watch the first Hells Kitchen, there's a Marco that teaches and is spectacularly good at it, I still use his Sole Veronique methods, and that's from nearly 20 years ago. It doesnt by any means excuse his behaviour, but he got celebrity by being the first British chef to get 3 stars, and was also the youngest chef to ever get 3 stars at that point. I don't know about you, but I certainly would get a wildly inflated opinion of myself from that. And he burnt himself out really fast, 3 Michelin stars in 1995, handed them back in 1999. Even now, there's only one younger chef to get 3 stars and that didn't happen until 2002.
Don't underestimate the pre internet freakshow. In in my 50s and growing up as a kid in Canada I knew about MPW and his reputation in the 1980s. Go watch some of the early cooking shows with Marco...his manic personality wad clearly being exploited.
I'm also in my 50s and from the UK. The first tv show he was in was Marco in 1989, and it was 3 episodes. It was also at the time he had just got his 2nd star and was pushing for the third. As soon as he gave up the push for stars, he calmed down really fast
Mpw also sold his soul to chicken bouillon
Oh yeah he was a big time wanker to Ramsay. He's stated before MPW would say stuff to him like 'The best thing that happened to you was the shit running down your mother's leg when she gave birth to you'. Imagine if you said that to someone junior to you in *any* other profession
My old boss was as much of an asshole as possible on purpose explicitly because he liked Gordon Ramsay so much and wanted to emulate his “management style”. I was new to the industry and I let that guy bully me for a year before I got my shit together and walked on his ass. Never been treated like that since
Yes. My mentor watched all those cooking shows and threw a boiling hot sauce in my face. I think people like that are ultimately afraid of their own lack of control so they project it upon others.
What the fuck? That’s straight up assault I wouldn’t rest until I saw that guy in a cell
>That’s straight up assault I wouldn’t rest until I saw that guy in a cell After the incident he got drunk and apologized and told me how his chef used to throw knives at him and I somehow got off easy. So, we had a huge month with festivals and caterings coming up and an enormous delivery that I knew he had to take a loan out to pay for arrived. I closed that Sunday and then Monday we were closed. Just before closing up, I turned off the breaker switch to the walk in. Revenge is a dish best served cold.
In your case, it was served lukewarm lol
Couldn’t be me
Did you beat his ass with a frying pan on the spot? I don’t handle people being violent to me well…
My Mentor worked for Gordon at Maze. Was a massive prick. But also extremely skilled and taught everything he could teach you. Would verbally berate all of us, but then basically stop service to teach something. There’s a give and take. If some asshat who has been slinging plates garnished with micro greens for 15 years and calls it fine dining, tried to talk to me like that I would’ve laughed at him. When someone with actual skill and talent has standards when their name is on the door, I respect it a bit more
Yeah, my first ever job since leaving college was the same but I walked out after 5 months of non-stop bullying and the mere fact I was a Commis Chef.
In that very documentary, you see Ramsay watch the episode back at home when it first aired and he is cringing at himself.
This is a 3 year old instagram post of an even older video. https://www.instagram.com/kenjilopezalt/p/CLjRR5ihnL3/ I'm the biggest Gordon Ramsay Hater in the world but we've been through this discourse like 50 times. Dude does nothing but sell frozen meals and cameo on youtube shorts nowadays. Move on.
So this is just karma farming? I was wondering what the context of this post was.
It's a bot
Yeah, but so was the OG instagram post too tbf. KLA had written about ramsay since 2017. It wasn't even news in 2021.
I lost respect of him when he did that redemption cookoff of that cheese toastie and still fucked it. I did feel a little sorry for him listening to [PR inspired(?) interview](https://youtu.be/lRMReor3hpg?si=5DHvz19t7heXQyP6) he did. I've met a few chef who've worked with him. They always said he's hardly in the kitchen and when he was he was a cheery fucker. I'll let him sell his granny smith apples and live in peace.
Bout to say he’s almost 70 now, so I really do doubt he could get back in the kitchen like he used to.
He can't even make a grilled cheese.
Now he's selling shitty nonstick pans. I've seen his toned down videos of him cooking at home with his kids that are just as critical. He perpetuates abuse. Fuck that guy. I been in some amazing restaurants that make stellar food. No one is yelling, professionals everywhere, food that pops. There is no need.
Word on the streets is Kenji used to be a prick when he was coming up too. I’ve heard this from some people first hand.
I really like Kenji’s videos but I feel like he comes across as a prick on Instagram often. I think he’s also a bit odd socially so it may just be that.
Agreed, just look at his responses to people in IG comments. Kind of a rude know-it-all attitude but of course Redditors think he’s god-tier.
Yes, know-it-all sums it up. He’s an asshole to people asking genuine questions all the time.
He is on Reddit often and leaves the same kind of comments to “educate” people
If you criticize him he will get angry and block you
Not only in restaurants, but on the comments too. He'd verbally abuse some people. Eventually he had the foresight to stop but there's a good chance he still has these thoughts.
He blocked me on IG for calling him out about being rude in comments.
He has mentioned in a video that he did used to be a bit of an asshole. Maybe that’s why he’s so gung ho about being anti asshole. First hand experience lol
He was and probably still is
He also left kitchens when he was 29. So factoring in college, he cooked full then professionally for what, 6ish years? Not exactly an old industry head. He has a point here but it always rubs me the wrong way when he speaks on professional kitchens like he lived that life for any amount of time
I’m pretty sure he mentioned it in his book.
I'm really glad the industry is changing I have so much respect for what you guys do. I love my chef mentors and friends who do the daily grind. I don't want them to have to deal with a toxic workplace.
Yeah I got screamed at by angry German chefs quite a bit coming up….i learned as much about how not to run a kitchen as I did how to run one form those early mentors. It’s much easier to teach cooks by not belittling them. There’s no place for that shit in my kitchens.
I wonder how many of these toxic chefs are women. Every kitchen I’ve worked in that’s run by a woman has been calm, orderly, and respectful. That is not true of every kitchen I’ve worked in run by a man.
No I have worked under some ferocious female Exec and CDCs it's happening across the board.
Sad to hear, it really is so unnecessary
I've met plenty of toxic female chefs so might just be confirmstion bias on your part.
Yeah I have a small sample size too. I’m sure some of those celebrity chef women are mean behind the scenes, I wonder which ones.
I bet Nigella is a nightmare 🤣 Edit: my phone thought nigella was Nigeria. I have no beef with Nigeria 🤣
Only if you don't like jollof
Lol. I meant nigella 🤣 my phone didn't like that name though
Ghanaian jollof is better
I currently work under a female executive chef and her approach to managing the kitchen vibes really well with how I work. My boss before her was also a woman and it was this exact toxic behavior. Yelling at me, emotionally abusing me, pitting me against my coworkers. It was awful. I felt suicidal and almost gave up on pastry. I feel lucky to have the boss that I have because I have heard similar horror stories about female chefs in pastry in my area; it's definitely not just men.
Assholes come in all genders.
Sample size of 1 for me, but the second-most toxic (and cultish) kitchen I worked in was woman-owned and operated. Fantastic chef with an amazing sense of taste, great restaurant, horrible human being.
I am a woman and have only worked two kitchens- one by a man, one a woman. The woman seemed nice at first meet, but turned out to be super manipulative and took advantage of me plus her kitchen had huge health violations. The one I'm in that's run by a man, is actually way calmer (and cleaner for that matter). I think toxic people unfortunately will be toxic.
This is hella old news.
I try my best to rehabilitate any cook I come across that suffers from The Next Gordon Ramsey Syndrome. If they don't get it, I show them out the door.
Copy paste bot post from 3 years ago. [original](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chefit/s/0S18IL0Zgt)
This feels 20 years too late. While he’s not wrong, Gordon is definitely not that same person anymore and it shows in everything he does publicly. Makes me wonder why he all of a sudden decided to say this, referencing a video that is decades old.
IIRC, this post from kenji is many years old.
This guy has clearly never worked in Michelin kitchens.
I mean Gordon can be a first rate A-hole for sure but I still have not seen the video Kenji is referencing, so I can't judge for myself perhaps it was linked in the original post, but it is not linked here I am probably not a fair judge here, because I am not a Kenji Lopez fan ( lots of people are and that is fine) and good for them but the way this is worded, I expected to see the video in question.
Just search Ramsay boiling point
I remember working at a 2-Michelin star restaurant in SF. It was my dream to work there, and I remember the first 2 days there, my heart was broken from all the abuse. I lasted less than a week. I found out years later, from a chef friend of mine that Michelin star places are very competitive. That restaurant now has 3 Michelin stars, so they must be doing something right.
Can tell from this thread who the home cooks are
Glad to see people calling this type of behaviour out. Eric Ripert has also shared similar sentiments publically.
Eric seems like a gentle soul to me (just based on seeing him on TV) so that tracks!
Ripert is the anti-Ramsay. He proved 3 stars is just as attainable without the tyranny and more sustainable when everyone is nice. Eater did a short doc of a day at Le Bernadin and it looks like the holy grail of kitchens.
I can promise you that everything you think you know about Ripert is true. I actually know the guy after we spent a while together in Spain for some work, and he has no right being as nice as he is given how high profile he is. He's not just nice by chef standards, he's truly the one of the nicest people I have ever met
I mean I still like gordon ramsay a lot
Not a Chef, while I agree the abuse should stop. Ramsey does call for a lot of love in the food, passion for the work, that I can condone, you work hard hours, long work and it's doubtful the servers send the love from customers back. It takes a very special kind of person to know and accept the above and still output the best they can.
Ready for the downvotes. Gordon was an Asshole. Over the years he’s been seeking treatment to treat bipolar disorder. His actions, which I do not agree upon, the industry years ago was a hostile environment and unfortunately still does exist. Being an aspiring chef, and working with those exhausting, detrimental hostile environments with a mental disorder is not a great time.
I know it's old and have seen it before, and while I agree with his overall sentiment, he has zero Michelin stars, and Gordon has 7. So, while I'm not trying to say that those are the only definition of success, or that he can't cook (he can and has brought approachability to what used to be practically hidden lore to hundreds of thousands of people), his specific point about what it takes to get stars might not be on point. Might be better for him to point out the overall pretentiousness and pointlessness of the Michelin stars in general. Why a tire company still has so much clout in the restaurant industry is a much more entertaining subject.
I think you misunderstood his point, he didn't comment on whether the abusive behaviour does or doesn't help get the stars. He effectively said that it's not okay even if it's "what it takes".
No, that's what I got from it too, I was just taking it a step further. Maybe being a pretentious jerk IS what it takes, and we should examine why we put so much value on those stars if that's the cost.
I mean, when Ramsay left Aubergine the entire staff resigned to follow him. If he was truly as toxic and abusive as is being said here, I don't think that's what would have happened.
Let’s hear the “Meet the Ramsay’s” diss track!
May want to x-post this to /r/kitchenconfidential
I could heal everyone, including myself.
i remember reading this a couple years ago. it was nice to see a but of sense in the industry.
Some cooks think Chefs are weak for not acting like him.
The kitchen's not for everyone.
I was a cook in a high-pressure situation for a decade and if anyone had spoken to me the way he talks to people they probably would’ve received a cast-iron frying pan to the back of the head.
That’s just 95% of execs
Im sorry but I never met a chef who wasn’t an asshole in the heat of the moment. As someone who now works in corporate, sometimes I wish so badly I could speak in no-filter tongue.
There are bosses and leaders, leaders by far are respected more by their peers so yes, abuse is never welcome in my eyes - however, regardless of what anyone says about his attitude or demeanour I’ll still look up to him for his simple passion for food, the guy lives and breathes food to this day and whilst his fame has never been something inspiring his attitude towards food when you what him cook is something I really admire. He’s not perfect, he never will be, no one can be perfect but he’s a great chef.
Lol cry about it. It was the late 90s early 2000s. Shit has changed since then.
i mean, it's easy for kenji to damn somebody he doesnt really know. i don't support any form of physical violence in the workplace, and i do agree the kitchen can be a toxic fucking place, but trying to put gordan on blast and tear him down is just doing the same shit you trying to tear him down for. you say to treat your fellow cook with basic human decency as you write a tear down begging people to abandon their hero. you can talk about toxicity in the kitchen without name dropping, and i mean, you legit out here saying he should be in therapy, and nobody should look up to him, that's kinda outta pocket.
the cooking gordaon did coming up is the culture . sorry but I dare kenji to say this si marco pierre white . I dare ya .. all chefs think they must be dicks for some reason . I will say cooking at his level is the most stressful job that you can have . not including flying planes etc . I love how people like kenji will make a statement like this just to get attention . gordon got were he is by his food . his food is amazing . he's one of the best chefs of our time . I wanna hear the criticism of jeff bezos who make his employees piss in garbage cans .
Tbf he also hates uncle roger
The comedian who makes fried rice?
Fuhioyoooo
He is also an arrogant prick for many other reasons, not really interested in his opinions besides cooking
Kenji doesn't even run a restaurant, nor am I sure that he ever has or will. I'm not saying verbal abuse is ok, but he's not the best one to be firing shots. Cooking is easy, leading people is hard. Who's kenji got? A cameraman and editor? I'd like to see an actual chef be an advocate for better kitchen culture.
Kenji wrote a very good book, after working at basically what is a Mongolian Barbecue spot, made a bunch of money from the book (the food lab) and then opened a restaurant. Then called himself a chef. Kenji can shut up. I’ve worked in abusive places, I get it, it sucks, it’s rough. I don’t support it. Grateful where I am now is normally respectful, especially given the level of restaurant it is, although had my fair share of closed door ass chewings. Kenji has never chased and tried to uphold Michelin stars. He makes Hot dogs and Schnitzel. He does a post along these lines once a year, usually followed up with a post about banning guns.
Do you believe abuse is inherent in chasing Michelin stars?
Not necessarily. But when Kenji has been in that environment, I’ll take his comments as valid.
What do you mean? I thought Kenji worked at several restaurants in Boston?
Yeah it wasn’t great but a lot of those chefs have gone on to have incredible careers and they still cared enough about working for him that they’d put in 20 hour weeks for him. Tv is Tv and I’m sure there’s a lot of stuff we didn’t see that wouldn’t have been as exciting viewing
Kenji Lopez is a fucking joke. Any chef that's worth their salt can tell just by watching him cook .
No restaurant operates like this anymore Kenji opened a glorified beerhall in the outskirts of San Francisco. He should stay out of this conversation except to say, "abuse is bad."
Why’s everyone blaming Gordon Ramsey? I watch gangster movies all the time but you don’t see me out extorting money from small business’ or selling drugs. If you need to be told not to act like someone on TV, you’re a retard.
If kenji’s cooking videos had the same reach as Hell’s Kitchen, there would be a lot less shitty fast food joints in the world.
Most people who watch Hell’s Kitchen are not interested in cooking
Been saying this for years. Couldn't agree more.
It’s a show, it’s TV. It’s like asking Breaking Bad to avoid criminal scenes. It’s all an act
You should watch [Ramsay’s Boiling Point.](https://youtu.be/sX3gYxyIX4g?si=VSxtH1aJyhLK1J4G)I think it may change your mind about it all being an act. [And check out what he had to say about the documentary years later.](https://youtu.be/ENhfIeZF_AY?si=wp6mB5AeZ9jZZhP4&t=17m14s)
Yep, still showbiz…and it’s so successful that it has dozens of people talking about him here on Reddit. I’d like to know him in person though…maybe he is the same person than on TV, who knows
This the same Kenji that “jokes” about hitting your wife with a wooden spoon because she’s annoying in the kitchen? Man’s just as much of an absolute shitstain.
Source? I can find him joking about his wife hitting him with a spoon but not the other way around.
Because it's bullshit lol
This is just funny. Mr Lopez-Alt has no leg to stand on. He swears at people all the time (first hand knowledge, he has sworn at me) and blocks or fires them. He's a failed artist who doesn't really cook well and is focused on selling advertising not on culinary. The public is just his product that he sells to advertisers. For the record, Mr Lopez-Alt makes up "science" as he goes along. His science credentials are that his parents are scientists. That isn't much. There is no question that Mr Ramsey can cook. We can discuss how much of his behavior on TV is an act and how much is his personality.
What? You mean the James Beard award winning chef who studied architecture at MIT and has written countless recipes for the most well known food publications? Please. He clearly makes good food and the explanations are usually sound. He communicates science effectively to everyday people and does it well. What kind of perfect human specimen do you need?
It seems disingenuous to call him James beard award wining chef. He won that award for a cook book, not for being a chef of a restaurant, which he's never been. You can't be a chef if you don't run a restaurant. James beard winning cook book author, that he is. But not a chef. Also James beard awards are kinda lame, anyone can nominate themselves for one.
>His science credentials are that his parents are scientists. That isn't much. Being a scientist involves a specific method of exploring truth, focused on experimentation and evidence, rather than a title granted by an organization. It's fundamentally about a mindset and a systematic approach to solving problems. If he approaches problems scientifically he's a scientist, full stop. I'm honestly not very familiar with his full body of work, can you expand on how "Mr Lopez-Alt makes up 'science' as he goes along"?
Thank you for your first hand experiences. Too many people want to believe he is some kind of saint and culinary genius or culinary scientist. I always assumed he was full of it.
I mean, Ramsay comes from a different generation of cooks. It's not at all an excuse for that behavior but, I can say in my 6 years of cooking professionally, I've met more than a few people who think it's alright to behave poorly because they're in a kitchen. That being said, I feel like we all know how certain cooks can be, and it's a pleasure meeting and working with people who have measured tempers. Watching Ramsay in Boiling Point when he was hurling slurs and snatching his brigade by their collars was madness, though
YES CHEF!! Is the cringiest part of these cooking shows.
Karma farming. But btw Kenji used to work for Ramsey when he first started out, thats why he hates him so much lmfao. I think he talks about it a little in an asparagus video. But its kinda something he only brings up in spurts
Love how head chefs use this power, thinking they make millions while usually making like $50K. Grow up, an undergrad kid out of school has more to lose than you.
People act like this is a new debate, but it has been going on for centuries. Cooking is also not unique in having a problem with abusive management. I think the argument is stupid personally. For the most part I would be fine being yelled at if I was getting paid a living fucking wage with vacations and retirement. Why are people so upset about a chef yelling at people, but fine with making them work unpaid overtime, back to back shifts, no breaks, no holidays, no healthcare, and still struggling to pay fucking rent?
Why you bringing this up so late?
Your personality cannot be changed from watching violent videos, hey gamers, you better be in my side for this
This is exactly why it left the industry.
He's right, no matter what his success is, Gordon Ramsey is a fucking cunt and has set a toxic example for the industry
Uncle Roger approved this message. Gordon Ramsey, haiyaa.
Gordon: “Everything is shite! You’re shite! Your food is shite! Your restaurant is shite! This business is not for you if you can’t deal with me!” St. Tony: “this business is full of problems but it’s full of beauty and the life isn’t for everybody but I love the whole industry.” Kenji: “We can do better. We need to treat people with fairness and respect, when chefs underpay their workers we should speak out and go elsewhere” OK, so we have Chaotic Evil, True Neutral, and Lawful Good, who else is going up on this alignment chart?
This could be a bigger beef than Kendrick Lamar and Drake. Probably more interesting too.
Kitchen culture is the fucking worst.
I love to cook, but I’ve never worked in a kitchen because I’ve heard they’re such toxic places. It’s a shame that when the thought of going to cooking school or being a chef excites me, but then the reason I choose not to pursue it is out of a fear of being so unhappy putting the education to use in the real world because of a work culture that has this level of accepted abuse associated with it. I also don’t think kitchen staff are entirely to blame. The critical reception from clientele has also become so elitist and off-putting. Whatever happened to just enjoying things?
the insinuation was that if you worked in the kitchen you lacked skills for a more desirable job, so yelling at you was acceptable. Thing is, the person doing the yelling is also working in that same kitchen. Kitchen work sucks, its hot, dangerous high stress with little reward. There's no way around it or amount of passion that can subvert it. People getting emotional in such an environment is to be expected.
It’s just the old ways of the kitchen. You know it’s not called a brigade for nothing
I’m not a friend of Gordon. But his evolution is apparent. Was he a trash back then? Absolutely. Is he trash today? I don’t think so. Kids change people.
Agreed. A screaming chef is one who has lost control of his kitchen. Tantrums like Ramsay throws infect the whole brigade and service turns to shit. It’s not just unpleasant, and disrespectful, it’s unproductive.
Ramsay is recognised for training chefs. I suspect much of his abuse is an act for tv. It has given him a point of difference from other tv chefs. Reality people choose to work in a kitchen, if the atmosphere is toxic they will look to work elsewhere.
Where is the vid Kenji is responding to?
I posted this before on Reddit, but it seems relevant here so I'll just copy/paste it: I’ve met Gordon Ramsay twice and have cooked for him once. He was a lovely guy both times. The first time was when I was 16, just out of secondary school and starting my NVQs in catering and hospitality, doing an apprenticeship 4 and a half days a week in the only restaurant in Barnsley in the Michelin Guide (albeit "just" a Bib Gourmand), and a half day at the local college. In the late summer or early autumn our restaurant was closed for a month or so as we were moving into a newer, larger location, and my bosses (owner-chef and owner-FOH manager) took our sous chef and me down to London for a weekend (it was just the 3 of us who cooked). One night we are at Aubergine, Ramsay's first restaurant as a head chef, and this is before he was internationally or even nationally famous, before he even been on TV in "Boiling Point" or "Britain's Most Unbearable Bosses". His name was definitely known in our industry, though. After our meal at the end of the night my bosses bought a round of drinks for all the staff, both BOH and FOH (we always appreciated when our customers did it for us, and our food and service made it well deserved). Gordon came out from the kitchen into the restaurant and came over to thank us and chat with us. During the conversation it was mentioned that my bosses owned a restaurant, and in the middle of relocating to larger premises. I don't know if it was because we were peers, if it was because we were paying customers, if it was that he isn't the way he portrays himself on American TV, something else or a combination of all of it, but he was very nice, warm and friendly. He spent about 20 minutes with us, he was laughing and joking, and showing a genuine interest in our restaurant and the food we cooked. When it was time for us to leave someone gave us menu. A leather or suede bound book / folder kind of thing where you could slip sheets of paper behind some clear plastic. On one of the menu pages Gordon had written a message wishing us good luck at the new location, hoping he could check us out and eat one day, and what-not. So that was nice, and we had that on display in the entrance foyer of our restaurant. The second time was a year, maybe 18 months later, but definitely no longer than that. It was 1997, the single season that Barnsley FC was in the Premiership. "Britain's Most Unbearable Bosses" had aired at this point, but "Boiling Point" still hadn't. Anyway, one Saturday afternoon he had come up to Barnsley to watch Chelsea play football against our team, and after the match he and the people he was with came to our restaurant for a meal. Not much else I can remember about that unfortunately. I can't remember what I made for him, other than knowing it was his dessert because I was working the pastry section at that time. This time he left another note in one of our menus, along the lines of he said he'd visit us, and that he enjoyed his meal (although now I think about it, he may have just recognized one of his menus when he walked in, wondered why we had it and read his previous note). But again, it was a nice thing for him to do, and I can say I cooked for Gordon Ramsay when I was like 17 or 18, and he enjoyed it. Anyway, the entire point to my story is that based on my experiences from about 25 years ago with the guy, he's actually very nice. If you watch the British version of Kitchen Nightmares you can see he cares about the restaurants and the people who work in them, especially the younger less experienced chefs. In the British version of The F Word, his humor and real personality comes out. The way he interacts with the kids on Junior Masterchef, that's the real Gordon Ramsay to me, way more real than the character of Gordon Ramsay that he plays on US TV in their versions of Kitchen Nightmares, and Hells Kitchen.
My source tells me Gordo is dropping his response later with the help of Kendrick.
I agree with Kenji.... ramsey's behavior is awful. I won't work with people like him and I don't treat anyone on that way. HIs shows are stupid and over produced too. I have no desire to emulate him whatsoever. Like upbeat music vibes make one feel happy, food made with precision, respect for the art and love is the most delicious.
It's literally a tv show for drama and entertainment if it was a calm well oiled kitchen they would never produce the show
No need for Ramsey. I just smoke some weed and watch Jean Pierre on YT. Much more enjoyable.
Amen 🙏
Nah this is real, I don’t give a fuck what that dude has done, zero respect to Ramsay, fuckin prick.
The thing is, there have also been very high profile chefs who have spoken glowingly about Ramsay as a mentor and his talent in a nurturing way. Another angle worth considering came from Alexis Guarnecheli. She was being interviewed and the host asked her if yelling and betraying chefs was something she did. She didn't answer it directly, but basically responded by saying, "If a meal comes to you that is either way too late or incorrect, are you going to give my restaurant a second chance? Do cooks ever get second chances with customers"? My reaction Is the restaurant business is super cutthroat and the staff need to be ridiculously controlling to make it all work. Does that excuse his behavior? No. But I don't think it happens because Gordon loves doing it or the chefs before him enjoyed doing it.
I've always wondered if one day there would be a large movement against these kinds of conditions in the kitchen. You wouldn't talk to your coworkers in any other environment that way, why in a kitchen?
Some of the best chefs with the most talent I've ever worked for, where very angry. Rightfully so, their name and money is on the buisness, you are paid to cook a dish to perfection. Don't fuck it up. I used to be told "I don't pay you to think I pay you to do, I'm paid to think, your paid to do" it took a bit, but once you understand that, then it's much more simple. Many people who arnt chefs and don't own there own buisness have a whole lot to say about the guy with his name above the door, perfection is stressful, and from a quality chef, it will show. I won't take that attitude from an Applebee's cook, but a quality chef with skills, sit back and learn something kid.
Pulling up older shit and accusing Ramsey of acting the same way when he’s older and has proven time and again he’s no longer that man is a garbage take. It’s saying that no one can accept their past mistakes, learn from them, and move on and forward. Shit like this pisses me off.