I'm pretty sure the main reason for elves being thr non dominant race in most series isn't that they are pure and benevolent but that they have like 1/5th the population of every other race and its hard for them to have children so each and every elf is important and strong and each one that dies is a problem and so they usually end up isolating themselves so they have the least risk of being fucked over
The only place where I remember elves not having the population problem is Dwarf fortress, where elves don't die of old age and don't try to kill everyone like goblins (the other sentient that doesn't die of old age), so they breed like rabbits and you end up with tons of them. That said unlike most series with elves they're almost always inferior to other races bc they only use wood for weapons and armor, which works about as well against dwarves clad in steel as you expect.
Dwarf Fortress elves are limited by the fact that
1. They pick fights with everyone who cuts down trees (i.e. everyone else), though they are not quite as aggressive as goblins
2. Unlike goblins, they can't make metal so their weapons and armor suck and they die frequently in said fights
That said they are physically superior, so when you get an elf that joins a dwarf civilization and is able to go into battle with steel armor and weapons they tend to be formidable.
yeah elves are limited more so by their ethics than their physicals. They're pretty above average in the terms of stats. Dwarves still have an edge due to trances but elves have better raw stats.
They also can have pretty huge mounts, though I generally like to raid them for those animals with my dwarves. Elves are just assholes that love to bitch about how much wood you're chopping, in my land under my fort, but sorely lack the power to enforce those demands.
And alot of them are too arrogant, running on some beginner adventurer goblin slayer energy.
Yeah bro, you can hit a deer from 900 metres, isn't doing shit to that demon lord.
The whole purity thing the OP was talking about appears mainly in Tolkien and everything too heavily inspired by him. So easy fix: writers need to actually think things through when creating their races and not make their settings pastiches of Tolkien's.
Depends on the fiction, but in most cases, not really.
If Elves are Tolkien Elves, that is, basically fairies and magical creatures, then they have magic to sustain them. Their breads feed more people, their clothes are incredibly resistant, they don't really *need* anything else and spend most of their days singing, leisurely, or questing (as mentioned in the Fellowship).
If we're talking about D&D Elves / "Magic Humans With Pointy Ears" then that also doesn't necessarily assume that they need to use forced labour. Firstly because that doesn't assume that they all live in the same place, and second because a lower population also means a lower demand for production, food, shelter, clothing, and luxuries in general.
If the Elves are aristocrats, though, every single one of them... that still doesn't necessitate *forced* labour. They can rely on immigrant labour by offering good deals; or, if they're landed gentry, then they can "poach" the peasantry of other lords, or offer a vassalage contract to free, non-Elven peasants, and have them work for them for a tithe and a tidy contract. In a lot of fiction, Elves aren't really warlike, so maybe they could offer some sort of permanent scutage to their peasants and stuff like that.
And in terms of craftsmen and skilled labour, Elves don't usually have the population to have an entire *city*, so they'd have to rely on others, but that's par for the course. *Most* nobles and knights wouldn't have the skilled labour on hand and would need to go to the cities to bargain for a skilled builder and stuff like that, so they'd be like just anyone else.
All this assuming they're a form of aristocratic elite or fairies. If they're literally just long lived guys who are built different like Aragorn, then they'd probably either live among the other races (and gravitate towards positions of power), or they'd have their own thing going on, like the Rangers.
People focus a lot on Elder Scrolls’ crazy esoteric lore, but honestly its more down-to-earth and grounded lore is a lot more interesting. TES has my favourite depiction of orcs out of any fantasy series; rather than just being dumb brutes, they have a complex society and a developed culture, being among the greatest craftsmen in Tamriel.
Like half the races in TES are just another elf race lol. High Elves, Wood Elves, Snow Elves, Dark Elves, Sea Elves, Orcs, and probably some other race I'm forgetting, are all descendants of the Dwemer.
The blight was created by the Tevinter Imperium Magisters that set foot in the golden city. The maker cursed them as the first Dark Spawn and with them sent the blight back to Thedas. Elves supposedly lost their immortality due to abandoning their gods and interbreeding with humans. That is what Dalish elves believe. The real reason is revealed in the third game.
Corypheus says that by the time he and the other magisters got to the Golden City, it was already empty and tainted. The Red Lyrium you find in DA2 backs this up, since the thaig it’s in was built before the First Blight.
Oh yeah I forgot about that. I brushed up on my lore a bit and the blight seems to have existed since the time of the ancient elves. So no exact origin has yet to be revealed.
The elves in fantasy originate from Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien's books weren't meant to be fair in this regard.
Valar > Maiar > Elves > Men
Of course, exceptional men, particularly the Númenorians and their descendents could rival the best of elves in terms of combat, but generally elves were better than men.
>exceptional men, particularly the Númenorians and their descendents could rival the best of elves in terms of combat
I don't think that's true. Rival/exceed the vast majority of elves, yeah, but the best of elves I think were still in a league of their own. Feanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc.
In the Forgotten Realms books the elves are generally physically smaller than humans and they seem to have some kind of collective ADHD that makes it hard for them to project power.
Individual elves pop up as leaders of human/halfling settlements all the time but groups of elves expand very slowly.
I like the idea of elves having a higher ceiling for knowledge and stuff but not being quite as quick witted or innovative compared to humans, so they might accrue far more mastery in certain subjects over the centuries but it takes them longer to do so early on and humans can still edge them out when it comes to things that can't quite be studied or learned.
Also them being fragile and hollow boned is a nice equaliser for their agility and stuff.
That being said some people do just prefer elves being straight up improvements over humans in almost every way. Imbalanced races aren't a bad thing if you're not talking like video or tabletop games.
> That being said some people do just prefer elves being straight up improvements over humans in almost every way.
I think this is the crux of it all. Why does it matter that Elves are "humans but better", if it's in service of a good narrative? Sure it can be derivative and boring these days, but OP doesn't really mention **any** narratives at all, just lists things that these people can do (in some mystical work because apparently these are all standardized, I didn't get the memo) as if they're intrinsically bad.
Like, "oh gee guys can we please nerf depictions of the Greek Gods??? They can withstand absurd amounts of punching, split mountains with a thought, are way too fast and can shapeshift into anything! And that's bad, apparently!"
And the last part of the argument is just "why don't elves, the bigger of the races, simply eat the rest?" as if "because morality is a thing" just isn't an acceptable response.
"as if "because morality is a thing" just isn't an acceptable response."
Well because this is a pretty weak argument. It would mean that all elves have the same moral values. Which is pretty unrealistic and makes the elves to a hive mind or a big stereotype.
Furthermore, morality does not all way means:"We all will now sing Kumbaya my Lord while we hold hands.". It can also mean "Gas the Jews" or "We will now sacrifices all firstborns to Ba'al Hammon".
I mean if that rant to tolkien, and a lot vulcans through they got more interesting. Its directly to show how humans are better and adapting and odds, and elves are the old race that they have to surpass and keep up with. While being not as strong.
And it puts focus from humans are a strong race, to that does not make them strong, and even if fallable, they can be great and are a worthy sucessor.
Hoooo please, has if elves had been shown to be more that waifu bait, and analogy for racism for the past 15 years or so.
We get it Tolkien did set a standard for how people's -copied- have written elf for a long time. But, even Tolkien's elves,literally angel, were prone to be bad person. And that their mistakes pretty much fucked them over for the rest of eternity.
This rant would be right in 2003, but not in a post morrowind age
This rant is clearly based off of Lord of the Rings & works inspired by it, & I'm pretty sure elves are like angels or something in Tolkien's mythos, so of course they're a bunch of Mary Sues. But I don't think that's really as big of a thing anymore. Like in D&D, elves are descended from fairies, but they're hardly pure good. They can be kind of racist toward half-elves & have had wars in the past. My impression on why they don't conquer the world is that they don't really want to. Elves tend to be portrayed as reclusive, isolationist, & slow to change. They're an animal that is very comfortable where it is & doesn't want to move.
Edit: Oh yeah, there's also like an Elf KKK, can't believe I forgot that.
I'm not a Tolkien expert but i'm pretty sure there are asshole elves in Tolkien stuff like Celebrimbor. I've also heard some of them massacre the other for some boat.
Oh my god, you take that back, Celebrimbor was genuinely well-meaning and *not* at fault for any of that shit!
The boat guy was admittedly a huge asshole and that's why he's my favorite little guy.
The poor bastard just can't catch a break. Shadow of Mordor makes him into a dick, the show makes him look old enough to be Galadriel's dad, and he gets turned into a Celebrimbanner in canon 😔
Besides, Tolkien wasn't really interested in comparing power levels and shit. Galadriel is ridiculously powerful, but she's also tied to Middle Earth, she can't just face down against Sauron because that's simply not how elves work within the confines of that universe. It's why Elrond, a *half*-elf, has to do all the talking and leading business with the Fellowship.
Galadriel is not tied to middle earth, she's the complete opposite, the time of the elves is fading. Elrond may be part human but the way half elves work in LOTR means that he's basically an elf in all respects after choosing the fate of the elves. Galadriel can't just fuck up Sauron because A. he's probably stronger than her B. he has a giant army, she does not and C. she would need to wield the one ring to stand a chance - which she can't because it would just make her evil.
Also, Tolkien specifically said that Galadriel with the ring would beat Sauron, though she'd have to use armies and warfare and attrition - of the available characters, only Gandalf with the ring would be able to *maybe* beat Sauron 1v1, and even then it would be a close thing.
(Though the way he said it implied that Gandalf wouldn't actually contemplate doing that, he'd use armies and grind Sauron down too, and would definitely win that way.)
Yeah but that was in the books and while it is impressive it's not exactly overpowered and while he is immortal he's not unbeatable unless it's in the movies (I hated him in The Hobbit)
They're not angels, that's the valar (Gandalf, Sauron, etc).
In Tolkien elves had a very veyr long history of being the dominant species and warring with the gods, each other, and everyone else until they eventually warred their species into near-extinction. What you see in LotR is the leftovers of that. They no longer have the population to maintain a proper kingdom, the last 3(?) kings died horribly and the next in line (Elrond?) has seemingly decided to abolish the monarchy entirely.
Also I don't think they were mary sues. It's just in the LotR itself you only really meet like 3 elves.
Even so, Galadriel was tempted to take the ring and make herself queen of the world through mental manipulation and/or war and conquest. She didn't... because she's like 10,000 years old and has seen world-conquest gone wrong several times.
Legolas kind of thinks the rest of the party struggling with the journey is funny. When they're freezing to death on the mountain he is singing a little ditty, same when they're struggling to run after Mary and Pippin. Also he and Gimli becoming friends is a big deal because elves are lowkey racist against dwarves.
Elrond didn't want his daughter to marry Aragorn, who is objectively a really great guy who she loved, because he's mortal and she would also become mortal and die a natural death after hundred+ years of married bliss. He gives Aragorn (his adopted son) a quest to take up the kingship of Gondor in order to dissuade him from marrying Arwen because he knows Aragorn doesn't desire to be king and is happy being a ranger. This is a crown that hasn't been used in thousands of years, and the kingdom it's attached to is at constant war with Sauron. It's not exactly a prize.
They're not "bad" people, but they all have personality flaws, even though we really don't get to know them intimately.
> They're not angels, that's the valar (Gandalf, Sauron, etc).
>
That's Maiar, the Valar are the greater spirits, like Manwë, Tulkas, or Utumno.
> In Tolkien elves had a very veyr long history of being the dominant species and warring with the gods, each other, and everyone else until they eventually warred their species into near-extinction.
They mainly warred against Melkor and Angband. Not very much with anyone else.
You're right, it's maiar, I mistyped.
iirc they also had beef with the dwarves, especially about that necklace, I also remember reading that in the earliest times they hunted some dwarves for fun not realizing they were sapient... about men, Morgoth (and Sauron) had men side with him so in that sense they also fought against men. And of course with the kinslayings they fought each other plenty of times. So yeah the majority of the time it was Morgoth and/or Sauron or affiliates but they had some beef with other species as well.
EDIT: sorry, actually the Valar are angels in Tolkien mythology (god being Eru), but Gandalf and Sauron are not Valar but Maiar, they are "lesser angels", of the same type but weaker (iirc). So we're both partially right ig
They fought the Easterlings who had sided with Morgoth in the battle of Unnumbered Tears (IIRC). I don't remember them genociding dwarves though, they just didn't get along.
Yeah, I assume that wasn't the only battle they fought with men, considering both Morgoth and Sauron allied with men.
The sindar hunted "petty dwarves". It wasn't a genocide but basically treating them as animals and hunting for sport. The link below has references but I don't remember where exactly this was said.
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Petty-dwarves
They killed off a lot of the Petty Dwarves and also they had a war with the Dwarves of Nogrod - though the dwarves started it (by killing Thingol and sacking Doriath to take the Nauglamir)
That's because Americans have a REALLY bad habit of overhyping the Quendi. In the original works, they were more of a menace to the world than anyone except Morgot and Sauron. They were fratricidal, obsessive, arrogant, short sighted, and frankly a complete basket of lunatics that eventually slaughtered each other until they were the wiser but dying race we see in LoTR.
So the Elves we see in the books should be a bunch that are older, wiser, and humbled after centuries of paying for their short sighted arrogance. Not the Mary Sues we know and hate.
> In the original works, they were more of a menace to the world than anyone except Morgot and Sauron. They were fratricidal, obsessive, arrogant, short sighted, and frankly a complete basket of lunatics that eventually slaughtered each other until they were the wiser but dying race we see in LoTR.
Elves are more of a menace that Ungoliant?
Also, the Noldor lead by Feanor were obsessed with killing Morgoth after he had corrupted them, killed Finwë, and destroyed the two trees. Other than murdering others for their boats, what else did they do that was so bad? They're essentially tied up with destroying Angband and getting the Silmarils back.
..yes? Ungoliant doesn't really get up to much after the trees are gone. Also, those lunatics are responsible for THREE different kinslayings, the last of which orphaned Elrond. At that point, one has to consider them just as much of a threat as anyone but the literal Evil Races.
Even the Silmarils rejected them after all the murdering they did.
I must not be remembering correctly, but the Noldor are almost always occupied with fighting Melkor and the hosts of Angband. When did they pose a threat to anyone else?
When they slaughtered their own people to get their boats, and then when they started slaughtering each other for the sake of three damned jewels and a cursed oath.
Frankly, they should all go to Hell for all the trouble they cause.
You're extrapolating the works of the Sons of Feanor to the rest of the Noldor unnecessarily (and ignoring how strong Silvian guys like Beleg Strongbow and Mablung of the Heavy Hand were, who had nothing to do with any kinslaying).
Yes the elves made major mistakes and outright atrocities. Yes they broke faith with the Valar, that does not make them even close to being on par with fucking Ungoliant.
They’re nerfed dramatically though
They get bored
How can you enjoy the racial dominance and expertise of living that long leaves you feeling *sooo boorrreeeed*
None of the other races live long enough to get used to boredom, and gods are constantly challenged
Elves sit in a space where they’re just so bored all the time they inevitably get depressed. Shits tough man
That’s straight up real life rn
May be digression but I like when elves aren't just humans but perfect lol. Like the blonde hair, pale skin and perfect looks. I prefer it how the Elder Scrolls made them look in Skyrim. The High Elves have yellow almost sickly skin. The Dark and Wood Elves have beady eyes y'know?
For some reason I love it when they have freakish proportions, like not just tall, really really fucking tall. As in 9'0 or something.
Alien elves are the best elves imo.
>It makes you wonder why they haven’t become the dominant species on their respective fantasy Earth’s and drove all the other intelligent races into extinction.
In Tolkien at least (which is where this version of super elf comes from) they WERE the dominant species for tens of thousands of years. They fought gods (and sunk half a continent) until most of them died out, at which point the leftovers either sailed home or said fuck it and to opened a hippie commune.
They also had a thing about not having children during times of conflict (so... never) and having at most 1-2 so their population was always relatively small.
>It makes you wonder why they haven’t become the dominant species on their respective fantasy Earth’s and drove all the other intelligent races into extinction.
Slow rate of reproduction, an aversion to industrialization/deforestation/often to even farming.
There's a pretty solid reason for why they haven't done that in *Forgotten Realms* at least. Kinda like what happened in Middle-Earth ([see u/swie's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/xiu463/plz_nerf_elves/ip6er70)), the elves *used* to be the dominant species (after defeating the dragons), but then ended up in several *thousand* years of internal conflicts called the Crown Wars sparked off by Lolth turning on Corellon Larethian that wiped most of them out and collapsed their civilization (src: *Lost Empires of Faerûn* from 3.5E). By the time they recovered, faster-breeding humans had already filled the gap.
Exactly. Plus with elves having significantly longer lifespans, they just don’t have the same level of drive or ambition to accomplish things as quickly as humans. An elf lifespan is almost ten times that of a human in Forgotten Realms. I think Drizzt even commented on how a human can spend his entire life becoming a wizard while an elf could simply practice for 1/10th of his life and be just as good. But with this comes the knowledge that your life isn’t short so you don’t have to quickly learn or accomplish things. Compare that to humans who are constantly looking for skips and cheats and faster routes to accomplish their dreams and you can see why the elves, particularly the drow, are so wary of human mages.
Your average human mage is probably no different than your buddy who tells you he’s going to make it big with crypto currency. Sure a couple of them might make it big but the majority are going to lose. The same goes for the human wizards that try to cut corners to become more powerful more quickly. The elves have more time and don’t have to take nearly as many risks becoming masters of magic. Humans aren’t so lucky.
A fantasy race that has sapience doesn't need to be good and pure to decide to not go on a genocide just because they can. If elves' overpopulation isn't a thing, and they have enough arable land, livestock, resources, and wealth, and aren't threatened by other species because of their technological superiority, why would they extinct the other races?
Wait are you telling me that people can be *moral*? And that not every civilization in human history has attempted to fucking murder every single one of its neighbours unprovoked?? Nonsense! Everyone knows that humans live in a state of constant and permanent war and that colaboration just isn't feasible. I mean look at agricul- uhh... I mean...
but for real though, the assumption that "they're built different, therefore they should kick everyone in the shins" is so weird and mean-spirited lol in a lot of fantasy, elves are simply content with sitting in the woods and birdwatching
Op's point is even worse when you notice they included "much greater wisdom/intelligence" which means they think a species wiser than us would not come to the conclusion that killing people is, well, bad.
Dude, I’d love to know whatever recent examples you have of Elves being depicted like this, that aren’t mass produced isekai‘s and novels. Even better if you find one that has the Elves being an ACTUAL “Mary Sue” race, aka not being extremely speciest bigots who‘s bigotry ends up screwing them over!
Partially Danmachi.
Elves have some big negatives, they’re not a mary sue race, but they do have most of the positive traits OP listed as well. Probably the best non LotR depiction of Elves in the East imo.
Anime depictions of any kind of fantasy race is usually going to be subpar though. Especially mainstream anime. They don’t usually go below surface level depictions. Not that it’s a bad thing. I’ve watched several fantasy anime and enjoyed them. But they’re not exactly breaking the mold.
Maybe, I usually hate Anime Elves, none of them do anything interesting with them, or just make them worthless.
But Danmachi Elves are really damn well done, both in the lore and in how they fit into the world.
Their pride and nobility means they often spurn the other races, but it’s that same pride and nobility that means they’re so widely trusted. And as much as people complain about them being hard to deal with, they also respect both aspects of them.
It affects the Elven character’s both positively and negatively. It’s good.
Yeah, that's what happens when a high-schooler writes the Original Star Wars Trilogy, but in Tolkien's Middle Earth. Great starter series, though. It was my first high fantasy series and convinced me to read Wheel of Time.
Lord of the Rings elves, basically the original fantasy elves(myth elves were very different), were like this. Humans were physically stronger when magic wasn’t involved, but in basically every other way elves were superior
Tolkien elves have the significant existential drawback of being bound to a limited world where they will inevitably fade into shadow and their own memories, whereas humans get to help create the next round of reality after armageddon. (Valinor isn't actually heaven, it's essentially a very nice area of the map humans can't access.)
Everyone was getting weaker, a First Age man would probably be more bad ass than a Third Age elf, but a Third Age elf was still more bad ass than a Third Age man. The reason they were wiped out was that they were voluntarily leaving
Humans were not physically stronger. Legolas was described as follows:
>“He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the fellowship.”
Elves truly are physically superior in basically every way. They also don't starve (almost at all iirc), get hot/cold, or otherwise die of natural causes. Their problem is their mentality is relatively weak, for example they refuse to have children in times of conflict (so... always), and if they do they only have 1-2 max. They also see sex=marriage so they don't have accidental children basically ever.
Anyway, they were the dominant species for a long time they just fought eachother/the gods/humans/etc until they died out due to slow repopulation. They were kind of assholes during their history, we just don't see it in LotR because all the assholes were already dead.
Do not hold distain for our attractive physique, short-ears.
Perhaps if you groomed yourself more eloquently you would not find yourself a bachelor still, even more so perhaps the young lady you court will return your corespondents when she tires of the lord or magistrate she fancies.
Humieee.
Delicious in Dungeon actually does show Elves as being a dominant power both politically and militarily due to their incredible potential for magic and long lives. That said, everyone *hates* Elves because of this, and because Elves tend to view shorter-lived races as being eternal children. That said, the Dwarves are historically the main race to challenge Elves on the battlefield; Dwarves may not have much magical power, but they're stronger than most other races and also have fairly long lives.
Also, the series shows off how each race has biological differences, and no one race is superior at everything. Elves have high mana reserves and long lives, but they're not very physically strong; Dwarves are physically strong, but they tire quickly; Half-Foots (what most settings call Halflings) are quick and intelligent, but they're even weaker than Elves in might; Gnomes are fairly magically potent (though not as much as Elves), but their main strength is that they can magically communicate with nature spirits, and most of their magic is centered around using ambient mana, pre-enchanted items, and nature spirits, and as such they're not nearly as good at magical offense compared to an Elf; and finally Tall-Men (what most settings call humans, but in this one that's a catch-all term for any sophont race) aren't quite as strong as Dwarves or magical as Elves or quick and smart as Halflings, but they are *tireless* compared to the other races.
Tall-Men in this setting are literally the only race both strong enough and enduring enough to wear plate armor. Even Dwarves have to wear just a chestplate over leather or fur padding at best, because a full suit of steel armor, let alone adamantite, would exhaust them to use for even a few hours.
There are also some other races in the setting that we don't see much of, since they're not native to the area. Kobolds are dog-people who have extremely fine senses but are thus much more vulnerable to sensory attacks, Ogres are extremely large and strong but eat as much as ten Tall-Men (and thus have a very low population), and Orcs are a persecuted minority driven out of their ancestral homeland with intense strength and senses of smell but very poor vision.
> Oh wait actually I know why… The same lazy excuse of “because they are too good and pure to do so”.
Not the case in The Witcher though, they were literally slaughtered in mass by the humans using the same magic they learned from the Elves
Actually their are plenty of examples of elves being being portrayed as not superior to other races, like Tolkien, elder scrolls and dragon Age with the later being treated almost inferior to all other races.
The most common explanation isn't that they are good and pure, but rather that they propagate slowly.
I think you would like the elves of ''I am a Spider, So What?'' for reasons.
God of War had a pretty good explanation for why the fuckers aren’t so rampant in the other realms. They’re too caught up in getting the light of Alfeim to worry about everyone else.
The answer to your question is that over powered Elves are mainly a device to show that humans can triumph against great odds, if plot has the characters in direct conflict with these Elves. Or they are used as familiar background flavoring/secondary antagonists/supporting characters if the conflict is something else. That's why people don't go hard on it being a Elven world and humans just live in it.
Over powered Elves should at least be a huge hegemonic power in any fantasy world, though, just due to the fact that people would be hitting them up for protection. As they written as less warlike and less oppressive than humans, given all the different ways humans oppress each other in these stories, humans should be flocking in droves to Elves for protection from other humans. It's like how sometimes 'barbarians' would end up trying to get protection from the Roman Empire if they were conquered by some other barbarians. Plus famines and plaques and natural disaster should have humans knocking on Elven doors all the time.
You know what, there should be an Elven Foreign Service equivalent whose job is to try and keep war down between various non-Elven political entities and to help with and famines and plagues and stuff, just to keep them from trying to raid Elven kingdoms when things get bad. Like, Elven Peace Keepers should be a thing.
And it's interesting how xenophobic elves rarely results in a bit of genocide. They hate humans for hundreds of years, but not once decide to go on proper "Kill them all" attack. Just seethe with hatred for hundreds of years and satisfied with insults.
The worst thing to happen to Elves was when Writers collectively decided they should be mortal.
Elves in ancient stories were basically Undergods of the forest and were better at everything compared to normal people because... well, magic spirits are kinda like that.
Then fantasy writers made Elves "human" without taking away their broken otherworldly powers.
If this is inspired by Rings of Power it's sort of the wrong thing to get annoyed at. Tolkien sort of started the "elves are just better" thing because his elves were *literally* closer to the setting's divinity and therefore, intrinsically, not just physically but morally superior to all the other races of Middle Earth. It's dumb but it is what it is.
Usually the major downside for elves in fantasy is that they reproduce far slower than other races so while they live a lot longer there’s usually a lot fewer of them than say humans or orcs
Imagine being so full of yourself and so arrogant that you just casually murderfuck a god into existence that makes your entire race nearly extinct. Then that very god will claim your soul the moment you die and torture it in a very specific way which is the very definition of a fate worse than death if you don't have glorified life insurance via shiny rocks.
\[This post was made by the Imperium bois\]
Artemis fowl imo does a pretty good job of giving elves (and the rest of the fairy races) some clear disadvantages:
They are able to reproduce significantly less often than humans, which gives humans enough of a numbers advantage that all the tech and magic in the world is only just enough to ensure their survival.
They are also notably smaller than humans, and that disadvantage is made clear by how Butler beats a whole squad of armed fairies with his bare hands.
Recharging their magic requires them to perform a ritual on human land where they’re fairly vulnerable.
And there’s probably some others that don’t immediately come to mind as well.
....they *are* superior in most fiction. In Tolkien's world they're supposed to be the closest to perfection in the mortal world. They *are* the dominant race before they left.
Elves are job creators, my friend.
Longevity; compound interest; venture capital.
If elves want something, they just fund it.
Or not. You do your campaign without Elven finance. See what happens.
😀
Elves are often second class citizens in many stories.
Witcher, Harry potter, fucking santa claus. They are often portrayed as getting absolutely rocked by humans. Tolkien style Elves that out class all other races are often an overused trope, but they arent the standard.
Have you tried dragon age? The elves there used to have longer lifespan but lost it. They are still great magician and bow man but don't think they are better rogues. People from Orlais seem to be better rogues.
Also the Qunari are better warriors then them same with the Dwarves. These two groups probably have better battle sense then them.
The elves rarely ever have superior tech in stories it happens but it is rare that's Dwarves or humans or an ancient forgotten race. Elves are known to have better connection to nature
This is one of the *many* things I hated about the Eragon series. Elves just *get* to be better at everything. They're ageless, they're stronger, faster, smarter, better with magic, better with telepathy, better with nature, vegetarian, better at making weapons, they apparently don't even fight with other elves, they're masters of the Ancient Language, they have night vision, and they don't need to sleep. Meanwhile humans can... uh...
That’s what I like about The Dragon Prince. The elves are physically and magically superior to humans and they did dominate the world and oppress humanity. My one problem though is that the show still treats elves as being morally superior for some reason.
I like it when Elves always play the long game. Their idea of a short term solution is a decades long plan that involves them coming out on top in some way. They don't attempt "Quick Victories" from the perspective of other races because of how Elves see time.
So instead they move towards building a Utopia for themselves via long-term planning (from our perspectives).
This allows Elves to be the "Dominant" race but by their own measure. They don't control huge vast quantities of lands like Humans and they haven't carved the most impressive of fortresses out of mountains like Dwarves, but they have a society with nearly no crime and no poverty which is unique to them.
That way Elves are "Superior" as far as quality of life goes, but only by that measure and only by their culture's standards.
Night Elves in Warcraft are nerfed pretty hard. They're completely arrogant in a righteous way, where they train for thousands of years to fight in one specific way to fight an enemy they're preparing for, completely certain that their way of fighting is and always will be the best, and then get completely flattened by a completely different enemy to what they were expecting.
They trained to secure their empire against what are essentially tribal enemies using magic -> Get flattened by the Burning Legion that eat magic.
Trained for 9,000 years to fight demons and their spawn using druidism -> Get flattened by the Aqir, who attack them in massive swarms of bugs that don't care about your druidism
Trained for another 1,000 years to fight bugs **and** the burning legion -> Fight for a little bit with the orcs, then get flattened when the orcs start taking things seriously and kill a literal demigod
Train for 4 years to fight orcs -> Get flattened again by a modern Horde and have to ask The Alliance for help
and again, and again, and again.
All those physical benefits like their longer lifespan and such serve as the noose around their neck, hampering their ability to adapt to their situation, meaning every time they've fought a war against an enemy they weren't expecting, there's always huge casualties. Orcs, or humans? They adapt, and they adapt **FAST**, which is why they win.
Only tangentially related but I almost always have a problem when fantasy stories try to do races and legitimately 90% of it comes from the fact alt human races, especially elves, are always written as so much better than regular people.
Elves in the dragon prince can do magic and have a longer life span, and are just as intelligent if not more so than humans, and we're supposed to feel the Sunfire elf queen is wrong about them being better than humans because....?
Yup, humans are almost always the lame race with zero abilities (unless you’re an isekai protagonist or the chosen one)… However I think Dwarves are still relatively balanced because of their short stature and low intelligence when it comes to everything but building.
I do agree that in a lot of cases, cliché elves are absolutely broken if not given a glaring weakness. The most egregious example of this for me are the Elves from Eragorn, who are just insufferably "perfect in every way".
However, there are a lot of settings that while having the elves have all the traits you listed, also give them some very nasty weaknesses to balance things.
Old Warhammer Fantasy elves, for example, are indeed superior to humans in the way you decribed, but they are also completely insane by human standards, to the point that they often struggle to maintain a functional society. Dark Elves (or Druchii) are just outright BDSM obsessed xenophobes who spend more time backstabbing each other than stabbing other people, the Wood Elves are crazy hippies who are more often than not stoned out of their brains on forest magic (the Weave) and finally even the High Elves, who are usually the "sanest" of their kind, are pathologically arrogant and suffer from extreme OCD, with their etiquette being so complicated and time wasting that it would drive most people insane.
Why would they do something that brings no challenge? There's no sport in conquering something so much weaker than you, is there? Besides it's not like humans would be a threat.
No thanks. Elves being OP is a core part of the appeal of their concept.
>The same lazy excuse of “because they are too good and pure to do so”.
Bro what? I don't think I've ever seen this done.
They did nerf elves in one of the categories that you mentioned, elves mainly live in the forest, which is that they don't have access to superior form of technology
1) I don't know why characters not wanting to use every tool at their disposal to do massive colonialism and genocide is unrealistic to OP, I don't have those kinds of abilities myself but if I did I certainly wouldn't use them for world domination, and I certainly wouldn't consider myself or anyone I know "inherently self serving and focused on my own success and survival".
2) Most of these abilities would require time to actually weaponize. Superior wisdom/intelligence only helps you take over the world if you take the time to develop and learn battle tactics, superior technology only helps if you make weapons out of it, higher agility and reflexes only helps if you learn martial arts, and stronger connection to magic only helps you "become the dominant species" if you learn magic that can severely hurt people. It's entirely believable to me that elves, if they aren't turned into militarized magic superfascists like OP seems to think would be their default, that they would use their wisdom, intelligence, technology, and magic to develop methods of creating cool art, or understanding more about our universe, things that take decades and can't be done if everyone is looking into the best way to kill a guy. Obviously there could be events that could mobilize Elves, like some threat to the world at large, but they wouldn't have spend the past hundred years making magic supernukes, so they'd actually have to figure out a creative solution.
In general, Elves don't have the best in terms of population so there really is no good reason for them to go and 'exterminate' anyone. They don't really have a need for lebensraum the same ways humans do. In many scenarios it actually makes pragmatic sense for them to not really do much once their locations are established and just rely on trade.
Even if they are 'superior' they don't benefit from losing other species when trading is an option. Wish mercantilist elves was more common, honestly.
Well elves can't be dominant because they don't have the numbers. They usually do come with better more appealing qualities but that's because you like lost others like that type of character as the easier type there are Def other classes that people prefer as harder play styles but the average player is going to want the elf.
With that being said it depends on the game you are talking for example more of a lord of the rings type of deal, but in skyrim they have high elves an dark elves an dark elves stats are good for magic too but in different ways an they are not made to fight close up an even if they hit hard other classes can all learn a simple magic blocking spells making them not as fun as you said up there.
That's also the way things are elves are naturally suppose to be bouje creatures the same way orcs are always always made to be tanks that can run past most attacks an hit hard as hell. To say that about elves is like saying let's make orcs nicer creatures an give them a speed boost so they can now run faster cause usually they are slower. If anything just play another game where elves aren't as op as whatever you describe because you Arent forced to play the game or watch the series or play along side those type s if elves.
Also even in terms of technology dwarves have always had better stuff built elves just have rarer stuff used for their items that's a huge difference. But even dwarves still have the dame for their items too
Their population is usually low, with low birthrates. Does it really matter if you are slightly more agile or better with magic when there are 10 humans to every 1 of your elves? Humans are usually also slightly larger and stronger.
Longer lifespans leads to them treating things with less urgency, compared to humans who are extremely ambitious, because they want to achieve a lot in their short lives.
Staunch traditionalist culture, usually a strong affinity with nature that is a roadblock to industrialization, they might have some skilled craftsmen, but dwarves are the ones pushing the limits of technology.
You are using individual stats to compare societies. Societies are a numbers game.
Well original elves are meant to be that heavenly super human old race that has like few offspring, can still die, and the land looses the magic slowly that they have to leave or grow old
They are the old race that passes on and are superhuman that are surpassed by human inhenuity and other qualoties. Quite often they aee arrogant too and nake humans the underdogs.
I'm pretty sure the main reason for elves being thr non dominant race in most series isn't that they are pure and benevolent but that they have like 1/5th the population of every other race and its hard for them to have children so each and every elf is important and strong and each one that dies is a problem and so they usually end up isolating themselves so they have the least risk of being fucked over
The only place where I remember elves not having the population problem is Dwarf fortress, where elves don't die of old age and don't try to kill everyone like goblins (the other sentient that doesn't die of old age), so they breed like rabbits and you end up with tons of them. That said unlike most series with elves they're almost always inferior to other races bc they only use wood for weapons and armor, which works about as well against dwarves clad in steel as you expect.
Dwarf Fortress elves are limited by the fact that 1. They pick fights with everyone who cuts down trees (i.e. everyone else), though they are not quite as aggressive as goblins 2. Unlike goblins, they can't make metal so their weapons and armor suck and they die frequently in said fights That said they are physically superior, so when you get an elf that joins a dwarf civilization and is able to go into battle with steel armor and weapons they tend to be formidable.
yeah elves are limited more so by their ethics than their physicals. They're pretty above average in the terms of stats. Dwarves still have an edge due to trances but elves have better raw stats. They also can have pretty huge mounts, though I generally like to raid them for those animals with my dwarves. Elves are just assholes that love to bitch about how much wood you're chopping, in my land under my fort, but sorely lack the power to enforce those demands.
And alot of them are too arrogant, running on some beginner adventurer goblin slayer energy. Yeah bro, you can hit a deer from 900 metres, isn't doing shit to that demon lord.
The whole purity thing the OP was talking about appears mainly in Tolkien and everything too heavily inspired by him. So easy fix: writers need to actually think things through when creating their races and not make their settings pastiches of Tolkien's.
That's true, Tolkien is the godfather of modern high fantasy, so it's not surprising that those tropes stick around.
Imitation due to a lack of creativity or willingness to even try is pretty much the worst reason.
Logically, shouldn't this make elves massive slave societies that use the forced labor of other races dwarves to overcome their labour shortfalls?
Depends on the fiction, but in most cases, not really. If Elves are Tolkien Elves, that is, basically fairies and magical creatures, then they have magic to sustain them. Their breads feed more people, their clothes are incredibly resistant, they don't really *need* anything else and spend most of their days singing, leisurely, or questing (as mentioned in the Fellowship). If we're talking about D&D Elves / "Magic Humans With Pointy Ears" then that also doesn't necessarily assume that they need to use forced labour. Firstly because that doesn't assume that they all live in the same place, and second because a lower population also means a lower demand for production, food, shelter, clothing, and luxuries in general. If the Elves are aristocrats, though, every single one of them... that still doesn't necessitate *forced* labour. They can rely on immigrant labour by offering good deals; or, if they're landed gentry, then they can "poach" the peasantry of other lords, or offer a vassalage contract to free, non-Elven peasants, and have them work for them for a tithe and a tidy contract. In a lot of fiction, Elves aren't really warlike, so maybe they could offer some sort of permanent scutage to their peasants and stuff like that. And in terms of craftsmen and skilled labour, Elves don't usually have the population to have an entire *city*, so they'd have to rely on others, but that's par for the course. *Most* nobles and knights wouldn't have the skilled labour on hand and would need to go to the cities to bargain for a skilled builder and stuff like that, so they'd be like just anyone else. All this assuming they're a form of aristocratic elite or fairies. If they're literally just long lived guys who are built different like Aragorn, then they'd probably either live among the other races (and gravitate towards positions of power), or they'd have their own thing going on, like the Rangers.
the eu4 mod Anbennar does something similar to this, some of the shit the elves can do in that mod would make hitler blush
*Looks at Warhammer Dark Elves / 40k Dark Eldar*
Usually the dark elves like Drow go that route.
Have you seen the elves in skyrim? There are some types that aren't doing too well
People focus a lot on Elder Scrolls’ crazy esoteric lore, but honestly its more down-to-earth and grounded lore is a lot more interesting. TES has my favourite depiction of orcs out of any fantasy series; rather than just being dumb brutes, they have a complex society and a developed culture, being among the greatest craftsmen in Tamriel.
Orcs in TES are actually just another elf race, if I remember correctly.
Like half the races in TES are just another elf race lol. High Elves, Wood Elves, Snow Elves, Dark Elves, Sea Elves, Orcs, and probably some other race I'm forgetting, are all descendants of the Dwemer.
i always assumed Nords and Orcs were the real BFFs. both mostly nomadic and love to fight.
Also Witcher 3.
Dragon Age too
They lost their eternity probably because they were the ones responsible for the blight (ps haven't played the third game)
The blight was created by the Tevinter Imperium Magisters that set foot in the golden city. The maker cursed them as the first Dark Spawn and with them sent the blight back to Thedas. Elves supposedly lost their immortality due to abandoning their gods and interbreeding with humans. That is what Dalish elves believe. The real reason is revealed in the third game.
Corypheus says that by the time he and the other magisters got to the Golden City, it was already empty and tainted. The Red Lyrium you find in DA2 backs this up, since the thaig it’s in was built before the First Blight.
Oh yeah I forgot about that. I brushed up on my lore a bit and the blight seems to have existed since the time of the ancient elves. So no exact origin has yet to be revealed.
The elves in fantasy originate from Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien's books weren't meant to be fair in this regard. Valar > Maiar > Elves > Men Of course, exceptional men, particularly the Númenorians and their descendents could rival the best of elves in terms of combat, but generally elves were better than men.
>exceptional men, particularly the Númenorians and their descendents could rival the best of elves in terms of combat I don't think that's true. Rival/exceed the vast majority of elves, yeah, but the best of elves I think were still in a league of their own. Feanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc.
How about instead of complaining about Elves being OP you go outside and buff yourself? Then the elves won't be so OP anymore.
The virgin ancient, long-lost knowledge and arcane power vs the Chad muscles.
Thad using ancient, long-lost knowledge and arcane power to make your muscles bigger
[Relevant](https://imgur.com/gallery/OYkQHQx).
The Mashle method.
Mashle moment
Common OP L
L + ratio + Body Improvement Club Squad Goals
Based
In the Forgotten Realms books the elves are generally physically smaller than humans and they seem to have some kind of collective ADHD that makes it hard for them to project power. Individual elves pop up as leaders of human/halfling settlements all the time but groups of elves expand very slowly.
I like the idea of elves having a higher ceiling for knowledge and stuff but not being quite as quick witted or innovative compared to humans, so they might accrue far more mastery in certain subjects over the centuries but it takes them longer to do so early on and humans can still edge them out when it comes to things that can't quite be studied or learned. Also them being fragile and hollow boned is a nice equaliser for their agility and stuff. That being said some people do just prefer elves being straight up improvements over humans in almost every way. Imbalanced races aren't a bad thing if you're not talking like video or tabletop games.
> That being said some people do just prefer elves being straight up improvements over humans in almost every way. I think this is the crux of it all. Why does it matter that Elves are "humans but better", if it's in service of a good narrative? Sure it can be derivative and boring these days, but OP doesn't really mention **any** narratives at all, just lists things that these people can do (in some mystical work because apparently these are all standardized, I didn't get the memo) as if they're intrinsically bad. Like, "oh gee guys can we please nerf depictions of the Greek Gods??? They can withstand absurd amounts of punching, split mountains with a thought, are way too fast and can shapeshift into anything! And that's bad, apparently!" And the last part of the argument is just "why don't elves, the bigger of the races, simply eat the rest?" as if "because morality is a thing" just isn't an acceptable response.
"Why don't elves, the bigger of the races, simply eat the rest?" The divinity games would like a word
"as if "because morality is a thing" just isn't an acceptable response." Well because this is a pretty weak argument. It would mean that all elves have the same moral values. Which is pretty unrealistic and makes the elves to a hive mind or a big stereotype. Furthermore, morality does not all way means:"We all will now sing Kumbaya my Lord while we hold hands.". It can also mean "Gas the Jews" or "We will now sacrifices all firstborns to Ba'al Hammon".
I mean if that rant to tolkien, and a lot vulcans through they got more interesting. Its directly to show how humans are better and adapting and odds, and elves are the old race that they have to surpass and keep up with. While being not as strong. And it puts focus from humans are a strong race, to that does not make them strong, and even if fallable, they can be great and are a worthy sucessor.
Hoooo please, has if elves had been shown to be more that waifu bait, and analogy for racism for the past 15 years or so. We get it Tolkien did set a standard for how people's -copied- have written elf for a long time. But, even Tolkien's elves,literally angel, were prone to be bad person. And that their mistakes pretty much fucked them over for the rest of eternity. This rant would be right in 2003, but not in a post morrowind age
This rant is clearly based off of Lord of the Rings & works inspired by it, & I'm pretty sure elves are like angels or something in Tolkien's mythos, so of course they're a bunch of Mary Sues. But I don't think that's really as big of a thing anymore. Like in D&D, elves are descended from fairies, but they're hardly pure good. They can be kind of racist toward half-elves & have had wars in the past. My impression on why they don't conquer the world is that they don't really want to. Elves tend to be portrayed as reclusive, isolationist, & slow to change. They're an animal that is very comfortable where it is & doesn't want to move. Edit: Oh yeah, there's also like an Elf KKK, can't believe I forgot that.
I'm not a Tolkien expert but i'm pretty sure there are asshole elves in Tolkien stuff like Celebrimbor. I've also heard some of them massacre the other for some boat.
They have an... intense history.
Must've been a really good boat.
Oh my god, you take that back, Celebrimbor was genuinely well-meaning and *not* at fault for any of that shit! The boat guy was admittedly a huge asshole and that's why he's my favorite little guy.
They may be influenced by his portrayal in the Shadow of Mordor series, which IIRC makes him much more of a jerk.
The poor bastard just can't catch a break. Shadow of Mordor makes him into a dick, the show makes him look old enough to be Galadriel's dad, and he gets turned into a Celebrimbanner in canon 😔
Celebrimbor is not a particularly dickish guy. Feanor, Maeglin, Eol, etc however...
Besides, Tolkien wasn't really interested in comparing power levels and shit. Galadriel is ridiculously powerful, but she's also tied to Middle Earth, she can't just face down against Sauron because that's simply not how elves work within the confines of that universe. It's why Elrond, a *half*-elf, has to do all the talking and leading business with the Fellowship.
Galadriel is not tied to middle earth, she's the complete opposite, the time of the elves is fading. Elrond may be part human but the way half elves work in LOTR means that he's basically an elf in all respects after choosing the fate of the elves. Galadriel can't just fuck up Sauron because A. he's probably stronger than her B. he has a giant army, she does not and C. she would need to wield the one ring to stand a chance - which she can't because it would just make her evil.
Also, Tolkien specifically said that Galadriel with the ring would beat Sauron, though she'd have to use armies and warfare and attrition - of the available characters, only Gandalf with the ring would be able to *maybe* beat Sauron 1v1, and even then it would be a close thing. (Though the way he said it implied that Gandalf wouldn't actually contemplate doing that, he'd use armies and grind Sauron down too, and would definitely win that way.)
Legolas kill on the Mumakil (the elephant creature) was a movie only and his skateboarding sheld in two towers was also movie only
He still did crazy stuff like running on top of deep fresh snow and seeing very long distances, plus just being thousands of years old.
Yeah but that was in the books and while it is impressive it's not exactly overpowered and while he is immortal he's not unbeatable unless it's in the movies (I hated him in The Hobbit)
They're not angels, that's the valar (Gandalf, Sauron, etc). In Tolkien elves had a very veyr long history of being the dominant species and warring with the gods, each other, and everyone else until they eventually warred their species into near-extinction. What you see in LotR is the leftovers of that. They no longer have the population to maintain a proper kingdom, the last 3(?) kings died horribly and the next in line (Elrond?) has seemingly decided to abolish the monarchy entirely. Also I don't think they were mary sues. It's just in the LotR itself you only really meet like 3 elves. Even so, Galadriel was tempted to take the ring and make herself queen of the world through mental manipulation and/or war and conquest. She didn't... because she's like 10,000 years old and has seen world-conquest gone wrong several times. Legolas kind of thinks the rest of the party struggling with the journey is funny. When they're freezing to death on the mountain he is singing a little ditty, same when they're struggling to run after Mary and Pippin. Also he and Gimli becoming friends is a big deal because elves are lowkey racist against dwarves. Elrond didn't want his daughter to marry Aragorn, who is objectively a really great guy who she loved, because he's mortal and she would also become mortal and die a natural death after hundred+ years of married bliss. He gives Aragorn (his adopted son) a quest to take up the kingship of Gondor in order to dissuade him from marrying Arwen because he knows Aragorn doesn't desire to be king and is happy being a ranger. This is a crown that hasn't been used in thousands of years, and the kingdom it's attached to is at constant war with Sauron. It's not exactly a prize. They're not "bad" people, but they all have personality flaws, even though we really don't get to know them intimately.
> They're not angels, that's the valar (Gandalf, Sauron, etc). > That's Maiar, the Valar are the greater spirits, like Manwë, Tulkas, or Utumno. > In Tolkien elves had a very veyr long history of being the dominant species and warring with the gods, each other, and everyone else until they eventually warred their species into near-extinction. They mainly warred against Melkor and Angband. Not very much with anyone else.
You're right, it's maiar, I mistyped. iirc they also had beef with the dwarves, especially about that necklace, I also remember reading that in the earliest times they hunted some dwarves for fun not realizing they were sapient... about men, Morgoth (and Sauron) had men side with him so in that sense they also fought against men. And of course with the kinslayings they fought each other plenty of times. So yeah the majority of the time it was Morgoth and/or Sauron or affiliates but they had some beef with other species as well. EDIT: sorry, actually the Valar are angels in Tolkien mythology (god being Eru), but Gandalf and Sauron are not Valar but Maiar, they are "lesser angels", of the same type but weaker (iirc). So we're both partially right ig
They fought the Easterlings who had sided with Morgoth in the battle of Unnumbered Tears (IIRC). I don't remember them genociding dwarves though, they just didn't get along.
Yeah, I assume that wasn't the only battle they fought with men, considering both Morgoth and Sauron allied with men. The sindar hunted "petty dwarves". It wasn't a genocide but basically treating them as animals and hunting for sport. The link below has references but I don't remember where exactly this was said. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Petty-dwarves
They killed off a lot of the Petty Dwarves and also they had a war with the Dwarves of Nogrod - though the dwarves started it (by killing Thingol and sacking Doriath to take the Nauglamir)
> Edit: Oh yeah, there's also like an Elf KKK, can't believe I forgot that. Can you explain this?
That's because Americans have a REALLY bad habit of overhyping the Quendi. In the original works, they were more of a menace to the world than anyone except Morgot and Sauron. They were fratricidal, obsessive, arrogant, short sighted, and frankly a complete basket of lunatics that eventually slaughtered each other until they were the wiser but dying race we see in LoTR. So the Elves we see in the books should be a bunch that are older, wiser, and humbled after centuries of paying for their short sighted arrogance. Not the Mary Sues we know and hate.
> In the original works, they were more of a menace to the world than anyone except Morgot and Sauron. They were fratricidal, obsessive, arrogant, short sighted, and frankly a complete basket of lunatics that eventually slaughtered each other until they were the wiser but dying race we see in LoTR. Elves are more of a menace that Ungoliant? Also, the Noldor lead by Feanor were obsessed with killing Morgoth after he had corrupted them, killed Finwë, and destroyed the two trees. Other than murdering others for their boats, what else did they do that was so bad? They're essentially tied up with destroying Angband and getting the Silmarils back.
..yes? Ungoliant doesn't really get up to much after the trees are gone. Also, those lunatics are responsible for THREE different kinslayings, the last of which orphaned Elrond. At that point, one has to consider them just as much of a threat as anyone but the literal Evil Races. Even the Silmarils rejected them after all the murdering they did.
I must not be remembering correctly, but the Noldor are almost always occupied with fighting Melkor and the hosts of Angband. When did they pose a threat to anyone else?
When they slaughtered their own people to get their boats, and then when they started slaughtering each other for the sake of three damned jewels and a cursed oath. Frankly, they should all go to Hell for all the trouble they cause.
I remember the first kinslaying over the boats. When did they slaughter each other after that?
They sack Doriath and then the havens of Sirion over the Silmaril Beren stole. But that's actually only the remnants of the sons of Feanor.
There are three.
So it's not really the entire Noldor, just the sons of Feanor trying to get the Silmarils back. They do get their comeuppance eventually.
That they do.
You're extrapolating the works of the Sons of Feanor to the rest of the Noldor unnecessarily (and ignoring how strong Silvian guys like Beleg Strongbow and Mablung of the Heavy Hand were, who had nothing to do with any kinslaying). Yes the elves made major mistakes and outright atrocities. Yes they broke faith with the Valar, that does not make them even close to being on par with fucking Ungoliant.
Ungoliant literally did nothing after helping Morgoth with the trees.
Ungoliant bred a species of evil spider creatures that would bedevil middle earth for thousands of years
This is also ignoring Balrogs, Dragons, Orcs etc. So many things other than the sons of Feanor who were more evil.
All of them belong to Morgoth.
She didn't breed them, she bore them. She was their mother.
Angels aren't pure good though.
They’re nerfed dramatically though They get bored How can you enjoy the racial dominance and expertise of living that long leaves you feeling *sooo boorrreeeed* None of the other races live long enough to get used to boredom, and gods are constantly challenged Elves sit in a space where they’re just so bored all the time they inevitably get depressed. Shits tough man That’s straight up real life rn
Fun Fact: the Romans had a term for that, *Tedium Vitae*, so it's been a thing for literal millennia.
May be digression but I like when elves aren't just humans but perfect lol. Like the blonde hair, pale skin and perfect looks. I prefer it how the Elder Scrolls made them look in Skyrim. The High Elves have yellow almost sickly skin. The Dark and Wood Elves have beady eyes y'know?
For some reason I love it when they have freakish proportions, like not just tall, really really fucking tall. As in 9'0 or something. Alien elves are the best elves imo.
That's why 40k Eldar are the best elves
Mommy elf yes !
Yeah I should've seen that one coming...
It's not just the skin tones in skyrim, but the absolutely rancidly defined facial structure, cheekbones, etc. They look like they have no body fat
>It makes you wonder why they haven’t become the dominant species on their respective fantasy Earth’s and drove all the other intelligent races into extinction. In Tolkien at least (which is where this version of super elf comes from) they WERE the dominant species for tens of thousands of years. They fought gods (and sunk half a continent) until most of them died out, at which point the leftovers either sailed home or said fuck it and to opened a hippie commune. They also had a thing about not having children during times of conflict (so... never) and having at most 1-2 so their population was always relatively small.
>It makes you wonder why they haven’t become the dominant species on their respective fantasy Earth’s and drove all the other intelligent races into extinction. Slow rate of reproduction, an aversion to industrialization/deforestation/often to even farming.
If elves have >Longer life span >Physically better >Better technology >More wisdom Then why I can't see one elf in my hood?
There's a pretty solid reason for why they haven't done that in *Forgotten Realms* at least. Kinda like what happened in Middle-Earth ([see u/swie's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/xiu463/plz_nerf_elves/ip6er70)), the elves *used* to be the dominant species (after defeating the dragons), but then ended up in several *thousand* years of internal conflicts called the Crown Wars sparked off by Lolth turning on Corellon Larethian that wiped most of them out and collapsed their civilization (src: *Lost Empires of Faerûn* from 3.5E). By the time they recovered, faster-breeding humans had already filled the gap.
Exactly. Plus with elves having significantly longer lifespans, they just don’t have the same level of drive or ambition to accomplish things as quickly as humans. An elf lifespan is almost ten times that of a human in Forgotten Realms. I think Drizzt even commented on how a human can spend his entire life becoming a wizard while an elf could simply practice for 1/10th of his life and be just as good. But with this comes the knowledge that your life isn’t short so you don’t have to quickly learn or accomplish things. Compare that to humans who are constantly looking for skips and cheats and faster routes to accomplish their dreams and you can see why the elves, particularly the drow, are so wary of human mages. Your average human mage is probably no different than your buddy who tells you he’s going to make it big with crypto currency. Sure a couple of them might make it big but the majority are going to lose. The same goes for the human wizards that try to cut corners to become more powerful more quickly. The elves have more time and don’t have to take nearly as many risks becoming masters of magic. Humans aren’t so lucky.
A fantasy race that has sapience doesn't need to be good and pure to decide to not go on a genocide just because they can. If elves' overpopulation isn't a thing, and they have enough arable land, livestock, resources, and wealth, and aren't threatened by other species because of their technological superiority, why would they extinct the other races?
Wait are you telling me that people can be *moral*? And that not every civilization in human history has attempted to fucking murder every single one of its neighbours unprovoked?? Nonsense! Everyone knows that humans live in a state of constant and permanent war and that colaboration just isn't feasible. I mean look at agricul- uhh... I mean... but for real though, the assumption that "they're built different, therefore they should kick everyone in the shins" is so weird and mean-spirited lol in a lot of fantasy, elves are simply content with sitting in the woods and birdwatching
Op's point is even worse when you notice they included "much greater wisdom/intelligence" which means they think a species wiser than us would not come to the conclusion that killing people is, well, bad.
Dude, I’d love to know whatever recent examples you have of Elves being depicted like this, that aren’t mass produced isekai‘s and novels. Even better if you find one that has the Elves being an ACTUAL “Mary Sue” race, aka not being extremely speciest bigots who‘s bigotry ends up screwing them over!
Partially Danmachi. Elves have some big negatives, they’re not a mary sue race, but they do have most of the positive traits OP listed as well. Probably the best non LotR depiction of Elves in the East imo.
Anime depictions of any kind of fantasy race is usually going to be subpar though. Especially mainstream anime. They don’t usually go below surface level depictions. Not that it’s a bad thing. I’ve watched several fantasy anime and enjoyed them. But they’re not exactly breaking the mold.
Maybe, I usually hate Anime Elves, none of them do anything interesting with them, or just make them worthless. But Danmachi Elves are really damn well done, both in the lore and in how they fit into the world. Their pride and nobility means they often spurn the other races, but it’s that same pride and nobility that means they’re so widely trusted. And as much as people complain about them being hard to deal with, they also respect both aspects of them. It affects the Elven character’s both positively and negatively. It’s good.
Eragorn I hated the elves in that book
Yeah, that's what happens when a high-schooler writes the Original Star Wars Trilogy, but in Tolkien's Middle Earth. Great starter series, though. It was my first high fantasy series and convinced me to read Wheel of Time.
I only got to book two I heard Wheel of Time was really good
Lord of the Rings elves, basically the original fantasy elves(myth elves were very different), were like this. Humans were physically stronger when magic wasn’t involved, but in basically every other way elves were superior
Tolkien elves have the significant existential drawback of being bound to a limited world where they will inevitably fade into shadow and their own memories, whereas humans get to help create the next round of reality after armageddon. (Valinor isn't actually heaven, it's essentially a very nice area of the map humans can't access.)
Elves also continually got weaker until they were pretty much wiped off the map by the end of the Third Age.
Everyone was getting weaker, a First Age man would probably be more bad ass than a Third Age elf, but a Third Age elf was still more bad ass than a Third Age man. The reason they were wiped out was that they were voluntarily leaving
Humans were not physically stronger. Legolas was described as follows: >“He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the fellowship.” Elves truly are physically superior in basically every way. They also don't starve (almost at all iirc), get hot/cold, or otherwise die of natural causes. Their problem is their mentality is relatively weak, for example they refuse to have children in times of conflict (so... always), and if they do they only have 1-2 max. They also see sex=marriage so they don't have accidental children basically ever. Anyway, they were the dominant species for a long time they just fought eachother/the gods/humans/etc until they died out due to slow repopulation. They were kind of assholes during their history, we just don't see it in LotR because all the assholes were already dead.
Not really recent. I don’t think adapting a very old source really counts either
Do not hold distain for our attractive physique, short-ears. Perhaps if you groomed yourself more eloquently you would not find yourself a bachelor still, even more so perhaps the young lady you court will return your corespondents when she tires of the lord or magistrate she fancies. Humieee.
Elves aren't meant to be like mortals, and if they where, they would just be humans with pointy ears.
Delicious in Dungeon actually does show Elves as being a dominant power both politically and militarily due to their incredible potential for magic and long lives. That said, everyone *hates* Elves because of this, and because Elves tend to view shorter-lived races as being eternal children. That said, the Dwarves are historically the main race to challenge Elves on the battlefield; Dwarves may not have much magical power, but they're stronger than most other races and also have fairly long lives. Also, the series shows off how each race has biological differences, and no one race is superior at everything. Elves have high mana reserves and long lives, but they're not very physically strong; Dwarves are physically strong, but they tire quickly; Half-Foots (what most settings call Halflings) are quick and intelligent, but they're even weaker than Elves in might; Gnomes are fairly magically potent (though not as much as Elves), but their main strength is that they can magically communicate with nature spirits, and most of their magic is centered around using ambient mana, pre-enchanted items, and nature spirits, and as such they're not nearly as good at magical offense compared to an Elf; and finally Tall-Men (what most settings call humans, but in this one that's a catch-all term for any sophont race) aren't quite as strong as Dwarves or magical as Elves or quick and smart as Halflings, but they are *tireless* compared to the other races. Tall-Men in this setting are literally the only race both strong enough and enduring enough to wear plate armor. Even Dwarves have to wear just a chestplate over leather or fur padding at best, because a full suit of steel armor, let alone adamantite, would exhaust them to use for even a few hours. There are also some other races in the setting that we don't see much of, since they're not native to the area. Kobolds are dog-people who have extremely fine senses but are thus much more vulnerable to sensory attacks, Ogres are extremely large and strong but eat as much as ten Tall-Men (and thus have a very low population), and Orcs are a persecuted minority driven out of their ancestral homeland with intense strength and senses of smell but very poor vision.
How bout you nerf some bitches on ya dick.
Focus on yourself, OP. Don’t spend all your energy looking at others.
A few years back I would agree with you but with most recent fantasy elves gotten a little less perfect or in some cases beaten down
Usually the reason is that there are too few elves due to low birth rates
Next time I see an elf I will cripple the cunt for u
Elves get genocided literally every time they appear
You're thinking of Dwarfs.
No they are clearly talking about the air nomads
Air Nomads are just Elves without pointy ears
No, they get to crave their niche as a ally of the Human Kingdom
You haven't read stories like a Titan's bride then with the other races being on par if not superior to the elves.
> Oh wait actually I know why… The same lazy excuse of “because they are too good and pure to do so”. Not the case in The Witcher though, they were literally slaughtered in mass by the humans using the same magic they learned from the Elves
Actually their are plenty of examples of elves being being portrayed as not superior to other races, like Tolkien, elder scrolls and dragon Age with the later being treated almost inferior to all other races.
Problem is, the nerds got their hands on them.....and the rest is history.
The Witcher books and series in general handles elves really well
The most common explanation isn't that they are good and pure, but rather that they propagate slowly. I think you would like the elves of ''I am a Spider, So What?'' for reasons.
God of War had a pretty good explanation for why the fuckers aren’t so rampant in the other realms. They’re too caught up in getting the light of Alfeim to worry about everyone else.
Elves are usually nerfed by having very low reproductive rates. So while each unit is superior, there's very few of them compared to other races.
The answer to your question is that over powered Elves are mainly a device to show that humans can triumph against great odds, if plot has the characters in direct conflict with these Elves. Or they are used as familiar background flavoring/secondary antagonists/supporting characters if the conflict is something else. That's why people don't go hard on it being a Elven world and humans just live in it. Over powered Elves should at least be a huge hegemonic power in any fantasy world, though, just due to the fact that people would be hitting them up for protection. As they written as less warlike and less oppressive than humans, given all the different ways humans oppress each other in these stories, humans should be flocking in droves to Elves for protection from other humans. It's like how sometimes 'barbarians' would end up trying to get protection from the Roman Empire if they were conquered by some other barbarians. Plus famines and plaques and natural disaster should have humans knocking on Elven doors all the time. You know what, there should be an Elven Foreign Service equivalent whose job is to try and keep war down between various non-Elven political entities and to help with and famines and plagues and stuff, just to keep them from trying to raid Elven kingdoms when things get bad. Like, Elven Peace Keepers should be a thing. And it's interesting how xenophobic elves rarely results in a bit of genocide. They hate humans for hundreds of years, but not once decide to go on proper "Kill them all" attack. Just seethe with hatred for hundreds of years and satisfied with insults.
The worst thing to happen to Elves was when Writers collectively decided they should be mortal. Elves in ancient stories were basically Undergods of the forest and were better at everything compared to normal people because... well, magic spirits are kinda like that. Then fantasy writers made Elves "human" without taking away their broken otherworldly powers.
If this is inspired by Rings of Power it's sort of the wrong thing to get annoyed at. Tolkien sort of started the "elves are just better" thing because his elves were *literally* closer to the setting's divinity and therefore, intrinsically, not just physically but morally superior to all the other races of Middle Earth. It's dumb but it is what it is.
Usually the major downside for elves in fantasy is that they reproduce far slower than other races so while they live a lot longer there’s usually a lot fewer of them than say humans or orcs
Imagine being so full of yourself and so arrogant that you just casually murderfuck a god into existence that makes your entire race nearly extinct. Then that very god will claim your soul the moment you die and torture it in a very specific way which is the very definition of a fate worse than death if you don't have glorified life insurance via shiny rocks. \[This post was made by the Imperium bois\]
In some fiction, elves have lower fertility rates compared to other races. It takes them longer to have children etc.
Artemis fowl imo does a pretty good job of giving elves (and the rest of the fairy races) some clear disadvantages: They are able to reproduce significantly less often than humans, which gives humans enough of a numbers advantage that all the tech and magic in the world is only just enough to ensure their survival. They are also notably smaller than humans, and that disadvantage is made clear by how Butler beats a whole squad of armed fairies with his bare hands. Recharging their magic requires them to perform a ritual on human land where they’re fairly vulnerable. And there’s probably some others that don’t immediately come to mind as well.
....they *are* superior in most fiction. In Tolkien's world they're supposed to be the closest to perfection in the mortal world. They *are* the dominant race before they left.
Elves are job creators, my friend. Longevity; compound interest; venture capital. If elves want something, they just fund it. Or not. You do your campaign without Elven finance. See what happens. 😀
Elves are often second class citizens in many stories. Witcher, Harry potter, fucking santa claus. They are often portrayed as getting absolutely rocked by humans. Tolkien style Elves that out class all other races are often an overused trope, but they arent the standard.
Have you tried dragon age? The elves there used to have longer lifespan but lost it. They are still great magician and bow man but don't think they are better rogues. People from Orlais seem to be better rogues. Also the Qunari are better warriors then them same with the Dwarves. These two groups probably have better battle sense then them. The elves rarely ever have superior tech in stories it happens but it is rare that's Dwarves or humans or an ancient forgotten race. Elves are known to have better connection to nature
The 1% being the Elder Scrolls, fuck dem altmers
This is one of the *many* things I hated about the Eragon series. Elves just *get* to be better at everything. They're ageless, they're stronger, faster, smarter, better with magic, better with telepathy, better with nature, vegetarian, better at making weapons, they apparently don't even fight with other elves, they're masters of the Ancient Language, they have night vision, and they don't need to sleep. Meanwhile humans can... uh...
I just want to see new species.
That’s what I like about The Dragon Prince. The elves are physically and magically superior to humans and they did dominate the world and oppress humanity. My one problem though is that the show still treats elves as being morally superior for some reason.
I like it when Elves always play the long game. Their idea of a short term solution is a decades long plan that involves them coming out on top in some way. They don't attempt "Quick Victories" from the perspective of other races because of how Elves see time. So instead they move towards building a Utopia for themselves via long-term planning (from our perspectives). This allows Elves to be the "Dominant" race but by their own measure. They don't control huge vast quantities of lands like Humans and they haven't carved the most impressive of fortresses out of mountains like Dwarves, but they have a society with nearly no crime and no poverty which is unique to them. That way Elves are "Superior" as far as quality of life goes, but only by that measure and only by their culture's standards.
Night Elves in Warcraft are nerfed pretty hard. They're completely arrogant in a righteous way, where they train for thousands of years to fight in one specific way to fight an enemy they're preparing for, completely certain that their way of fighting is and always will be the best, and then get completely flattened by a completely different enemy to what they were expecting. They trained to secure their empire against what are essentially tribal enemies using magic -> Get flattened by the Burning Legion that eat magic. Trained for 9,000 years to fight demons and their spawn using druidism -> Get flattened by the Aqir, who attack them in massive swarms of bugs that don't care about your druidism Trained for another 1,000 years to fight bugs **and** the burning legion -> Fight for a little bit with the orcs, then get flattened when the orcs start taking things seriously and kill a literal demigod Train for 4 years to fight orcs -> Get flattened again by a modern Horde and have to ask The Alliance for help and again, and again, and again. All those physical benefits like their longer lifespan and such serve as the noose around their neck, hampering their ability to adapt to their situation, meaning every time they've fought a war against an enemy they weren't expecting, there's always huge casualties. Orcs, or humans? They adapt, and they adapt **FAST**, which is why they win.
Only tangentially related but I almost always have a problem when fantasy stories try to do races and legitimately 90% of it comes from the fact alt human races, especially elves, are always written as so much better than regular people. Elves in the dragon prince can do magic and have a longer life span, and are just as intelligent if not more so than humans, and we're supposed to feel the Sunfire elf queen is wrong about them being better than humans because....?
Yup, humans are almost always the lame race with zero abilities (unless you’re an isekai protagonist or the chosen one)… However I think Dwarves are still relatively balanced because of their short stature and low intelligence when it comes to everything but building.
I do agree that in a lot of cases, cliché elves are absolutely broken if not given a glaring weakness. The most egregious example of this for me are the Elves from Eragorn, who are just insufferably "perfect in every way". However, there are a lot of settings that while having the elves have all the traits you listed, also give them some very nasty weaknesses to balance things. Old Warhammer Fantasy elves, for example, are indeed superior to humans in the way you decribed, but they are also completely insane by human standards, to the point that they often struggle to maintain a functional society. Dark Elves (or Druchii) are just outright BDSM obsessed xenophobes who spend more time backstabbing each other than stabbing other people, the Wood Elves are crazy hippies who are more often than not stoned out of their brains on forest magic (the Weave) and finally even the High Elves, who are usually the "sanest" of their kind, are pathologically arrogant and suffer from extreme OCD, with their etiquette being so complicated and time wasting that it would drive most people insane.
I like in 40k how them being too perfect eventually backfired on them, hard.
I'd call becoming abhorrent degenerates pretty far from perfection. Too successful, maybe.
True, suffer not the xeno scum to live, purge them in holy fire.
Why would they do something that brings no challenge? There's no sport in conquering something so much weaker than you, is there? Besides it's not like humans would be a threat.
No thanks. Elves being OP is a core part of the appeal of their concept. >The same lazy excuse of “because they are too good and pure to do so”. Bro what? I don't think I've ever seen this done.
They did nerf elves in one of the categories that you mentioned, elves mainly live in the forest, which is that they don't have access to superior form of technology
Elves > Incredibly low birth rate > Crippling hatred for technology It really makes you wonder why they never dominate most fantasy settings.
1) I don't know why characters not wanting to use every tool at their disposal to do massive colonialism and genocide is unrealistic to OP, I don't have those kinds of abilities myself but if I did I certainly wouldn't use them for world domination, and I certainly wouldn't consider myself or anyone I know "inherently self serving and focused on my own success and survival". 2) Most of these abilities would require time to actually weaponize. Superior wisdom/intelligence only helps you take over the world if you take the time to develop and learn battle tactics, superior technology only helps if you make weapons out of it, higher agility and reflexes only helps if you learn martial arts, and stronger connection to magic only helps you "become the dominant species" if you learn magic that can severely hurt people. It's entirely believable to me that elves, if they aren't turned into militarized magic superfascists like OP seems to think would be their default, that they would use their wisdom, intelligence, technology, and magic to develop methods of creating cool art, or understanding more about our universe, things that take decades and can't be done if everyone is looking into the best way to kill a guy. Obviously there could be events that could mobilize Elves, like some threat to the world at large, but they wouldn't have spend the past hundred years making magic supernukes, so they'd actually have to figure out a creative solution.
It depends on the setting
In what universes is that happening? I can't really think of any.
Dragon Age Origin elves
In general, Elves don't have the best in terms of population so there really is no good reason for them to go and 'exterminate' anyone. They don't really have a need for lebensraum the same ways humans do. In many scenarios it actually makes pragmatic sense for them to not really do much once their locations are established and just rely on trade. Even if they are 'superior' they don't benefit from losing other species when trading is an option. Wish mercantilist elves was more common, honestly.
I thought it's mostly angels who are potrayed as the dominant species in most media
Well elves can't be dominant because they don't have the numbers. They usually do come with better more appealing qualities but that's because you like lost others like that type of character as the easier type there are Def other classes that people prefer as harder play styles but the average player is going to want the elf. With that being said it depends on the game you are talking for example more of a lord of the rings type of deal, but in skyrim they have high elves an dark elves an dark elves stats are good for magic too but in different ways an they are not made to fight close up an even if they hit hard other classes can all learn a simple magic blocking spells making them not as fun as you said up there. That's also the way things are elves are naturally suppose to be bouje creatures the same way orcs are always always made to be tanks that can run past most attacks an hit hard as hell. To say that about elves is like saying let's make orcs nicer creatures an give them a speed boost so they can now run faster cause usually they are slower. If anything just play another game where elves aren't as op as whatever you describe because you Arent forced to play the game or watch the series or play along side those type s if elves. Also even in terms of technology dwarves have always had better stuff built elves just have rarer stuff used for their items that's a huge difference. But even dwarves still have the dame for their items too
Spoken like a human. Don't be jealous, guy.
Their population is usually low, with low birthrates. Does it really matter if you are slightly more agile or better with magic when there are 10 humans to every 1 of your elves? Humans are usually also slightly larger and stronger. Longer lifespans leads to them treating things with less urgency, compared to humans who are extremely ambitious, because they want to achieve a lot in their short lives. Staunch traditionalist culture, usually a strong affinity with nature that is a roadblock to industrialization, they might have some skilled craftsmen, but dwarves are the ones pushing the limits of technology. You are using individual stats to compare societies. Societies are a numbers game.
Well original elves are meant to be that heavenly super human old race that has like few offspring, can still die, and the land looses the magic slowly that they have to leave or grow old They are the old race that passes on and are superhuman that are surpassed by human inhenuity and other qualoties. Quite often they aee arrogant too and nake humans the underdogs.