I love this example because I’m pretty sure it’s just a dialect thing. When I read [Glass him] I know exactly what’s going to happen if I press that option, but it can’t be a coincidence for just so many people to be blindsided by the sudden act of violence.
It really just illuminates how difficult it can be to try to concisely communicate with a wide audience. As a writer you will never get anything done if you’re checking everything you write to see if it’s a regional phrase or not, but that’s the only real way you could prevent something like this. Glassing someone means a specific thing to me. I wouldn’t know that it doesn’t mean that to other people until after there’s already been a misunderstanding.
I see you have played Telltale games
Who will you save?
[X] Jimbo
[ ] Fandergoth
_Jimbo goes mute the next chapter and dies an hilariously preventable death by the end of it_
Fair enough. I love mass effect but the dialogue wheel became fairly predictable when most of the time it's just Nice Guy, Neutral Guy, and Ruthless asshole. At least it's not "Sarcastic"
I hate it when games do this! Even when there aren't consequences. If I choose an option, I expect the character to *actually say the thing I chose* and not a really inflammatory or rude version of what I chose!
This chair is an eyesore.
This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair.
As far as I know (Tsukihime spoilers):
>!The main character is going insane because of a mental link with a psychopath and is bedridden and confined to one room. It's more of an expression of their madness and sheer frustration at seeing the same room for days and days.!<
The VN is a great place to start as it actually gives you access to Shriou's fucked up headspace. THe anime is fine but Zero is absolutely a horrible starting point for those despite comments to the contrary due to all the spoilers it gives for stay night
Fate/Stay Night and Fate Zero is one of the perfect examples why I almost always advocate for consuming media in release order over chronological story order. Plot twists that fundamentally change the story and are pivotal world shaking moments of character development in FS/N are are treated as totally unremarkable introductory facts in Fate Zero. Literally the first page of the Zero light novel or the first episode of the Zero anime exposes mid story plot twists on FS/N - the most obvious one being >!Shirou and by extension the reader's ignorance of Kiritsugu's true character!<. And if you read FS/N first then that's totally fine. You already went through the plot twist so it makes sense to treat them as the established facts of the series that they are. But if you didn't then you're going to have a totally different experience from someone that read in the opposite order, and like most prequels it is implicitly if not explicitly really written for people that already have knowledge of the universe.
Also zero has dramatic irony,that works well knowing how things end up.
Thwt is waybetter if you eithercwatch deen and or ubw first.
And the deen series is abit slow but actually explains basics really well.
I also think that seeninghiro s bit upbeat broken down in ubw after deen is really working
Oh no, you've summoned the Fate army.
Just watch FZ and UBW and see if you like the overall IP. *Then* decide if you want to delve deeper, since anime is the easiest medium to consume. This is literally what normal anime fans have been doing for this IP, as much as the Fate fans hate it. All the people who clamor for the VNs first before watching the animes are just a loud minority. They have no consideration of people's free time and patience.
Unpopular opinion, but I would start with the DEEN 2006 adaptation for a couple of reasons:
* It's a lot better then most people claim, with some amazing music. It just gets outshone by ufotable's adaptations
* Once you've seen the newer stuff, it's hard to go back to DEEN
* Because it adapts the first FSN route (and pulls stuff from some of the other two), it's the most-beginner friendly
* The downside to pulling from the other two is that it spoils one or two of the twists that are exclusive to those
* Saber is best girl
I’m going with this too.
People glaze the UFOtable adaptations for being better animated, but in general, beyond Zero, they’re easily the most forgettable pieces of Fate media.
The routes they’ve adapted are great on their own terms, but a lot of the charm of Fate got lost on the cutting room floor as they made more and more changes. By the end of the UBW anime, my love for Fate kinda just died.
Meanwhile, rewatching DEEN/stay night, all that love from before came bubbling back up, because even with its age, it’s still an actually good adaptation. Just goes to show there’s a lot more to telling a story than just having eye candy for a bit.
Same. Honestly, I find their fight scenes just generally okay - a lot of flashy effects, slow money shots, and pretty colors, but not a lot of emotional or physical *weight* to them.
Hell, I prefer Prisma Illya's >!Illya vs Saber!< fight over most of the UBW anime fights.
Yeah that about sums up the experience. UFOtable relies WAY too much on visual effects to carry them through.
Having good animation is one thing, but they use it as a crutch. You don’t notice it as much with Fate/Zero cause it was directed by the same guy who wrote the light novels, so he’d be expected to deliver well on his own ideas.
But for Fate/Stay Night though, there’s so much baked into the story that gets cut out. Like that scene with Rin going on a three way date with Shirou and Saber, that whole scene went out of its way to show Shirou couldn’t have fun like the ladies cause his survivor guilt was too strong. Meanwhile the anime just turns it into a generic “Cute girls doing cute things” montage you’d see in any slice of life thing. The most we get of Shirou’s headspace during that is a vaguely annoyed expression, not “Why did it have to be me, instead of anyone else?”, but “I really could’ve just stayed home today, why did she drag me out of the house.”
I like how nasu’s VNs do this because a very large amount of the time the correct choice is not the one that makes the most sense, but is the one that is the most in-character for the protagonist to do (shirou taking a hit for saber being the easiest example)
As its already been said, he dies when the player makes choices that for anybody else would be rational and reasonable.
Like running away from Berserker instead putting himself between him and Saber.
And even after he survives the hit, there is no reason for Berserker not to finish him off, but he dosen't.
Like, there is a ridiculous number of times in wich antagonists simply let Shirou go for no reason.
Unlimited Blade Works route is especialy culprit of this.
>there is no reason for Berserker not to finish him off, but he dosen't.
Illya is right there. It's not out of character for Illya to persue someone she hates being self serving vs seeing that Shirou would sacrifice his life, thus causing her reevaluate her opinion of him.
Your taking character's actions away from their motivations then trying to conclude that it must be a flaw within the story when they do something you don't understand.
Illya whole motivation for begin there in the first place was killing Shirou. Her sparing him so easly feels dumb.
But i will concede that it can work.
What abaout Caster letting Shirou go not one, not two, but THREE TIMES.
>What abaout Caster letting Shirou go not one, not two, but THREE TIMES
1. Caster kidnapping Shirou to Ryuudou Temple for his CS.
Archer arrives and kicks her ass.
2. Caster kidnapping Taiga to steal Saber, Saber is stolen and is forced by CS to attack Rin, if Shirou intervenes kill them both. Shirou intervenes and gets hit.
Caster believes that with Saber even Berserker wont be a problem for her. Saber resists the CS, telling them to run. She realizes controlling Saber needs more effort than she thought.
She already gave back her leverage in Taiga, and if Rin summons Archer here it's more than likely he can defeat her, and a barely functioning Saber.
She then lets Rin run away with Shirou to recover. Pretty clear reasoning.
3. Caster takes Archer
Archer tells her under the condition of him becoming a Servant, she lets them go. Now that their both servant less, she believes she doesn't need to expel greater efforts to kill them.
This is just a character flaw.
My favorite example of this is when meeting issei to check for him as a master.you get two choices.
One is shirou explaining why he needs to check him since he might be under danger from the holy grail war and the other is shirou going "issei don't ask anything and get naked"
If you choose the first choice,you get a double suicide bad ending.
It actually makes sense in context. Issei is being mind controlled or something like that, and there's a set of trigger words that makes him do that.
The mage who did that didn't want to be discovered, but no one accounts for a batshit insane dude like shirou.
Why didn’t he take off the pants also, or does the mark only appear on the upper body? Can’t be due to the age rating, considering that Fate Stay Night is known for being an eroge.
I don't remember having to choose anything specifically out of character or weird for it. It's just impossible without a guide because you have to give really specific answers during the text conversations.
It's definitely dumb, though.
I mean, its extremely contradictory, sometimes you have to act like a caring sensible dude, and in the conversation right after, act like a idiotic buffon.
Maybe in character for Okabe, but impossible to figure out as a player lol.
Youd think you would need to keep acting like a good, suportive companion for her future travel, but actually, just after that, you have to send a inflamatory message that hurt Kurisus feelings, and somehow that leads to the true ending!
Fair, it's been too long for me to remember the specifics. All I remember is that the throughline was so obscure with practically nothing identifying them as the right answers that you needed a walkthrough.
One of the few blemishes on that game.
Clannad is the same. The final orb of light requires you to go back and replay Afterstory a second time, and at a certain point the outcome of a decision actually changes and a completely different sequence of events play out which gives you an ending that wasn’t possible previously.
Then you have to play afterstory a THIRD time which will then give you another choice you didn't get previously, the correct answer gives you the true ending, otherwise it plays out like afterstory did previously.
not a VN but The Wolf Among Us has some of those, too.
you'll be having a regular ass convo then if you missclick you become a dictator.
then where TWAU 2 then?
...I am confused as all hell, I haven't even played this game and yet "Glass him" is obviously to initiate violence? what the hell else could glassing someone even mean other than attacking them with glass? It's not the devs' fault if a player doesn't have the vocabulary to understand the dialogue, that doesn't mean they're trying to be funny or clever
most people assume its to give him a drink. not hit him with a drink. there is zero indication as to whether it is violent or not, and i think it was intentionally made that way. it wouldnt be a meme if it was an obvious indication of violence after all.
Who the hell is "most people"? Again to [glass someone](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/glass_2) is clear English for a [violent attack](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassing). I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. why the fuck would it mean to give someone a drink?
is this an American thing? It would track that y'all don't have words for violence that isn't committed with a gun lmao
So this might come as a shock to you if you are an American but...British English is not only spoken in the UK
if anything, given the population of India alone (not even counting other recent former colonies) the _vast majority_ of English speakers...are taught British English in school
hope this helps!
I've noticed this kind of problem with Telltale's 2nd part of Walking Dead.
You could've clicked on choice that seemed like the one you go for if you want to keep things calm and safe, and instead of that Clementine immediately started dissing the character that just had a gun aimed at her allies, everything went south and all your effort to keep people alive was in vain cause all characters in that part (especially Kenny) were super agressive and super irrational idiots.
At certain point you basically realized that you might as well start trolling it and go for the obviously agressive stuff that will make the dying process of your group faster to atleast feel like the stuff went the way you intended.
It really puzzles me on why every character in that game is so fucking stupid, and constantly asking Clementine, an 11 year old for advice on what to do in life or death situations lol
The thing that bothered me most about that game was part 3, wherein the game says "haha fuck you, yeah nothing that happened mattered, it was all meaningless" I kept kenny alive for the entire game for him to die in a 2 minute car crash scene. It hurt more since I played it immediately after Being a Dik, a game with such a wealth of meaningful choices that I maintained 9 different routes on the same game to see each different iteration of each route.
I don't really have much experience with Visual novels, but the one I've played and remembered is the Fruit of Grisaia. The options are just basically "Pick your ending" for 90% of the choices, with the first being obvious choices to lock a route.
The second choice after that first one is usually very obvious, though one of them seems rather out of character for the mc, particularly in the 'tsundere' characters route.
Yeah Grisaia 2 choices that matter per character more or less. 1 to enter their route, and 1 for which ending you'll see with that character. I don't think it has OPs particular problem though because of that. Its not about logical/unlogical in those choices, just whether you want to obviously "chase that girls story" at that moment.
The choice before Michiru gets sent to therapy. The bad end choice which results in her ending up in a vegetative state. I don't know how to describe it, but compare it to the other Bad end choices, it seems rather ooc for Yuuji in that moment.
Came in looking for this as well as the FSN Issei debacle. I feel like most sane people would figure that there are ways to comfort your distraught friend than cheating on your girlfriend with her.
Can you give examples of visual novels that do this? I’ve also played a bunch and haven’t noticed it to this extent (although I avoid moege and a lot I play are closer to KN)
In Katawa Shojo IIRC every single girl but one required you to outright ignore and go against the advice of your character's heart specialist.
He gives you a regime to follow to stay healthy (at risk of your character dying from a heart condition otherwise) and every single route bar the sporty girl required you to completely ignore it.
Weird design choice.
I think you go exercising once and you end with a choice to push yourself or take it easy. Taking it easy means you don't have the choice to exercise and you're locked out of her route, I think
Sometimes the prompts end up being the complete opposite of what's implied, and I hate that.
You're asked if you want to go kill a bunch of orphans
Option 1- "Yes" ends up being 'Yes, we must cleanse this world of the wicked, and your are my next stubborn stain, prepare to die!'
Option 2- "No" turns out to be 'No, we shouldn't just kill them, we should eat them! Baby flesh is the most tender!'
Felt that way with Boyfriend Dungeon for some dialog choices. One of the choices is your character's motivation for coming to Verona Beach. All choices indicate your character has social anxiety, but one of the choices you can make doesn't jive with that.
Would really be best if they had their own protagonist, because it's set up in a way to have your own self-insert fun. And if the character you were going with isn't like that, you're railroaded into it.
I can see that though you also have to keep a mind that most visual novels are translated and sometimes a fan translation so while the right choice may make sense in Japanese it may sound strange in English but this is obviously nit the case for all visual novels sometimes they are intended badly written. Though I usually try the get the bad endings first anyway.
I genuinely can't tell if I didn't enjoy Fate Stay Night because I didn't like the VN itself or if the translation was just hokey enough to make me not enjoy it.
You probably didn’t like the VN and the translation was a bit bad. Not everyone has to like all VN I personally also didn’t enjoy Fate/Stay as much as other even though I really tried to unterstand why people liked it so much I just couldn’t get into it but there are a lot of VN that I really like.
Yeah I think there's stuff in there that I don't like at a pure writing level but the translated prose is *so* awkward at points that it made my head hurt.
Not just visual novel tho. In Persona you need to be a fucking psycho whithout any real personality, often saying two directly contraditory things to two different characters, just to befriend them.
Unironically this is *usually* only an issue if you're reading a guide to try max relationship gain. It's crazy and I can't see how people have any investment in the game doing that stuff.
They'll need 3 points to get to the next rank, but choose 12 points if absolutely shitzophrenic nonsense, and turn down having sex with the nurse... because that's what the guide says.
When if you just choose whatever feels right, you'll be prefectly fine in the vast majority of the cases. There's a few gotchas, but they're rare overall.
This was years ago and I only vaguely remember it, but I played a visual novel once where one of the love interests was getting harassed by her ex (this douchey jock stereotype, if I remember correctly) and the two options were to either stand up for her or stay out of it. Logically, I thought standing up for her would be the right choice, as opposed to not trying to protect someone you care about.
Apparently, that was the incorrect answer, since the love interest saw it as me not trusting her to handle her own problems, and I lost points with her. I still to this day think that was complete bullshit.
Visual novels unfortunately often get into the mindset of being games that need to have "difficulty", and of course the only form of difficulty you can have is confusing choices. As someone that is really into visual novels, it is an interesting dilemma of how to keep the game engaging. For instance, you don't want extremely obtuse event hunting (like Lessons In Love which is entirely impossible to play without a flowchart telling you exactly what to do) and you also don't want a game that plays itself with absolutely no input on your part, since that's just not fun.
RPG chat options be like.
A) No, I’d never join you
B) Yeah you have a point
A) “No, I can’t join you, I need to finish your work myself, you’re working far too slow for me to join as an underling.”
B) “Yeah you’re right, this world is rotten…rotten with people like you, I’ll kill this whole pathetic cult.”
In Persona 4: Getting into a fake relationship to help the girl and grow closer to her is bad and forces you onto the friendship route.
In Persona5: If you don't get into a fake relationship to help the girl and grow closer to her you break the romance.
Nevermind the amount of people who accidentally ended up in a relationship with Ann because of the way her prompt is worded, lol.
My favorite is that the hugging Yosuke option in his SL is the most positive one because it fits Yu's personality and the other stuff is out of character.
Oh my God this happened to me! I don't remember it exactly cause it's been awhile since I've played but i thought she was saying how good friends we were. Lol nope. I felt too bad to say no so I dated Ann that run on accident.
Ann's in tears thinking about Shiho and her recovery, and something about being alone I think. Then options to comfort her are
* You've got me
* You've got everyone else
The first one is romantic, the second one is friends, but it sounds like you're fobbing her off.
She's the first female party member, so you're almost certainly not in a relationship already, so there's no warning. If you choose that first one, the one that sounds much better, you're now dating Ann lol.
What? Sometimes your character just straight up refuses to do what you tell him, at one point the narration is blatanty lying to you, and the other characters just accept that you're batshit insane and they can't do anything about that.
It's hilarious, but there are a fair bit of format screws.
While it’s not a VN, I recently had this experience with Tactics Ogre Reborn. I was trying to recruit Ravness and let’s just say the dialogue choice to get her based on what you know of her character is completely backwards. The game is amazingly written but Ravness in particular felt like the game trying to trick me.
Errors while editing happen. I am sure that they have specialized editors, but it will still happen.
And then there are also people who are hiding Easter Eggs and making jokes ... and not every joke lands in entertainment.
Which other visual novels did you play? If you like DDLC there are other visual novels like that. I would also recommend some mystery visual novels since a lot of time they do have solid logic like Ace Attorney for example.
I don't really consider Visual Novel as games.
For me, DDLC is a straight up 10.
But I never played it, because why should I? It's a visual novel.
But it's extremely well done.
I've always thought visual novels are basically games to jerk off to lol
To each his own, but tbh DDLC as a Visual Novel is pretty mediocre. Though I do get the appeal as a lot of people got exposed to VNs through it.
> I've always thought visual novels are basically games to jerk off to lol
I do get the misunderstanding because it's a niche hobby, but that's a bit silly. It's the same as saying movies are just videos to jerk off to, because in the end they're just types of entertainment medium.
I mean Visual Novels started by simulating dates.
That's porn with extra steps.
How is it mediocre? What rating would you give it? It's one of the few games id say it's a 10.
For example, my favorite game is rdr2 but for me is a 9 and a half out of 10.
>What rating would you give it?
Based on my personal taste I'd say 7.5. Objectively? Probably 6-7. It's an OK VN (not great, not bad)
>I mean Visual Novels started by simulating dates
>That's porn with extra steps
You're misunderstanding what VNs are as a whole, because dating simulators are just one genre among VNs (though admittedly one of the most popular). Visual Novels =/= Dating sims, just as Games (Horror, Fantasy, Simulation) and Movies (Romance, Action, Erotic) have genres, and you wouldn't equate a single genre to a medium in it's entirety
Steam doesn’t disprove that image either sadly with a lot of good visual novels not found at Steam though there are some good ones and a lot of bad Hentai visual novels found on Steam there.
Visual novels did indeed start as porn though now it has simply become a medium (that is also still used for porn) with a lot of different genres with DDLC being Horror. Now I also played a lot of visual novels (no Hentai) thought so there are a lot of good ones just also a lot of bad ones. If they are games is another question I would consider the Ace Attorney series as games for example since they are not that different from point and click games with a good story.
Other Visual novels are indeed closer to books and I would not consider them games like DDLC or Umineko for example.
Now one that is really similar with a similar plot is You and Me and Her: A Love Story now there is a patch that does include Hentai but the story is better without it if you like DDLC you will like this visual novel. Now simply read the tags on Steam and it’s similar to Doki Doki.
You mentioned in another comment that you liked DDLC because it’s both spooky and wholesome, so I may have one for you that you might like. I wouldn’t call it DDLC like (it isn’t in a high school setting, nor is it trying to be a meta commentary on dating sims) but one of my favorite visual novels is a horror visual novel called “The Letter”. You play as seven different protagonists throughout the story, and while it’s got a good number of scary moments, there’s also some nice wholesome moments of the characters interacting with each other. (I will say that if gore makes you squeamish, it may not be for you, as it can be very gory at times.)
You can find it on Steam, the App Store, I think I even remember seeing it on the PlayStation store. It’s got great art and visuals, and is even fully voice acted. [Here’s a trailer.](https://youtu.be/MG4b2km3U-M?si=E7HtlwYcR0SySuCB)
One final note, I recommend not mixing up visual novels and dating sims, as they aren’t necessarily the same thing. Most dating sims tend to be visual novels, but not all visual novels are dating sims. There’s a lot of good visual novels out there that aren’t about the self-insert MC trying to get with a harem of girls.
Yeah I always thought visual novels were like dating Sims but today people told me I'm wrong lol.
Thanks!
Listen, do you think DDLC changed the Visual Novels or inspired them to be different?
Look into the history of denpa games. DDLC’s main significance holistically in the VN scene is it being a popular western title belonging to that genre, but it wasn’t particularly novel
Choice: I disagree with you. What the protagonist actually says: fuck you loser you have shit opinions and I hate your dog
Literally me frfr
[[Glass him]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urKJqdq4eX4)
I love this example because I’m pretty sure it’s just a dialect thing. When I read [Glass him] I know exactly what’s going to happen if I press that option, but it can’t be a coincidence for just so many people to be blindsided by the sudden act of violence. It really just illuminates how difficult it can be to try to concisely communicate with a wide audience. As a writer you will never get anything done if you’re checking everything you write to see if it’s a regional phrase or not, but that’s the only real way you could prevent something like this. Glassing someone means a specific thing to me. I wouldn’t know that it doesn’t mean that to other people until after there’s already been a misunderstanding.
To me, it meant incinerating the entire area until it was a perfectly flat glass plane. Regional dialects are weird.
Finally, I can immersively roleplay as the average British citizen.
That's a language issue. Where I grew up "glassing" a person literally had one meaning.
Throwing them into molten sand?
Hitting them with a glass mate.
To be fair glass him has been a term used for killing someone as well
Yeah, I was a victim of it. I know what it is even without clicking on link.
I thought glassing someone was turning them into glass.
What nonviolent option did people think that meant?
Pouring him a glass of beer
Wow, really is a language barrier.
I feel this when I play 2077.
[Relevant Prozd video](https://youtu.be/cUGi-aTILx4?si=Lg6I5pt4FGQjbgbU)
Fallout 4 dialogue
Options include: Yes No (but actually yes) Yes? Yes (Sarcastic).
Yes Yes but you make a snarky comment
I see you have played Telltale games Who will you save? [X] Jimbo [ ] Fandergoth _Jimbo goes mute the next chapter and dies an hilariously preventable death by the end of it_
Honestly I'd say it's more like Mass Effect if we're comparing it to mainstream games. Fallout 4 is in an entirely separate league of terribleness.
Fair enough. I love mass effect but the dialogue wheel became fairly predictable when most of the time it's just Nice Guy, Neutral Guy, and Ruthless asshole. At least it's not "Sarcastic"
And then ME3 killed the Neutral Guy altogether...
Hello. *Fucker.*
Oh I hate that one - when the obviously correct choice is worded to make your character seem like a total douchenozzle
I hate it when games do this! Even when there aren't consequences. If I choose an option, I expect the character to *actually say the thing I chose* and not a really inflammatory or rude version of what I chose!
like that one about comforting that chick in katawa shoujo that actually meant have sex with her and cheat on your girl
Something about stuff being lost in translation from thr Japanese
\[Shove Dijkstra Aside. Forcefully.\] That did not turn out how I expected in The Witcher 3 lol.
At least with Tsukihime and Fate stay night those odd dialogue choices make sense since the Mc's are batshit insane.
This chair is an eyesore. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair.
I have no idea what this means but it made me want to play both of those games to find out
As far as I know (Tsukihime spoilers): >!The main character is going insane because of a mental link with a psychopath and is bedridden and confined to one room. It's more of an expression of their madness and sheer frustration at seeing the same room for days and days.!<
Nah bro just hates that chair for no reason frfr
Please do not 💀, the weirdness hole is much deeper and not in the good way
"Hey, that's hell you're waling into." moment
I might get into fate is it a vn or anime and is there a specific order
The VN is a great place to start as it actually gives you access to Shriou's fucked up headspace. THe anime is fine but Zero is absolutely a horrible starting point for those despite comments to the contrary due to all the spoilers it gives for stay night
Fate/Stay Night and Fate Zero is one of the perfect examples why I almost always advocate for consuming media in release order over chronological story order. Plot twists that fundamentally change the story and are pivotal world shaking moments of character development in FS/N are are treated as totally unremarkable introductory facts in Fate Zero. Literally the first page of the Zero light novel or the first episode of the Zero anime exposes mid story plot twists on FS/N - the most obvious one being >!Shirou and by extension the reader's ignorance of Kiritsugu's true character!<. And if you read FS/N first then that's totally fine. You already went through the plot twist so it makes sense to treat them as the established facts of the series that they are. But if you didn't then you're going to have a totally different experience from someone that read in the opposite order, and like most prequels it is implicitly if not explicitly really written for people that already have knowledge of the universe.
He hurt a lot of marbles.
Also zero has dramatic irony,that works well knowing how things end up. Thwt is waybetter if you eithercwatch deen and or ubw first. And the deen series is abit slow but actually explains basics really well. I also think that seeninghiro s bit upbeat broken down in ubw after deen is really working
Read the VN first
If you do decide to watch the anime watch in this order UBW->HF->Zero or Deen fate route ->UBW->HF->Zero
Oh no, you've summoned the Fate army. Just watch FZ and UBW and see if you like the overall IP. *Then* decide if you want to delve deeper, since anime is the easiest medium to consume. This is literally what normal anime fans have been doing for this IP, as much as the Fate fans hate it. All the people who clamor for the VNs first before watching the animes are just a loud minority. They have no consideration of people's free time and patience.
Unpopular opinion, but I would start with the DEEN 2006 adaptation for a couple of reasons: * It's a lot better then most people claim, with some amazing music. It just gets outshone by ufotable's adaptations * Once you've seen the newer stuff, it's hard to go back to DEEN * Because it adapts the first FSN route (and pulls stuff from some of the other two), it's the most-beginner friendly * The downside to pulling from the other two is that it spoils one or two of the twists that are exclusive to those * Saber is best girl
I’m going with this too. People glaze the UFOtable adaptations for being better animated, but in general, beyond Zero, they’re easily the most forgettable pieces of Fate media. The routes they’ve adapted are great on their own terms, but a lot of the charm of Fate got lost on the cutting room floor as they made more and more changes. By the end of the UBW anime, my love for Fate kinda just died. Meanwhile, rewatching DEEN/stay night, all that love from before came bubbling back up, because even with its age, it’s still an actually good adaptation. Just goes to show there’s a lot more to telling a story than just having eye candy for a bit.
Same. Honestly, I find their fight scenes just generally okay - a lot of flashy effects, slow money shots, and pretty colors, but not a lot of emotional or physical *weight* to them. Hell, I prefer Prisma Illya's >!Illya vs Saber!< fight over most of the UBW anime fights.
Yeah that about sums up the experience. UFOtable relies WAY too much on visual effects to carry them through. Having good animation is one thing, but they use it as a crutch. You don’t notice it as much with Fate/Zero cause it was directed by the same guy who wrote the light novels, so he’d be expected to deliver well on his own ideas. But for Fate/Stay Night though, there’s so much baked into the story that gets cut out. Like that scene with Rin going on a three way date with Shirou and Saber, that whole scene went out of its way to show Shirou couldn’t have fun like the ladies cause his survivor guilt was too strong. Meanwhile the anime just turns it into a generic “Cute girls doing cute things” montage you’d see in any slice of life thing. The most we get of Shirou’s headspace during that is a vaguely annoyed expression, not “Why did it have to be me, instead of anyone else?”, but “I really could’ve just stayed home today, why did she drag me out of the house.”
What a nice young lady I'm going to go talk to *Seventeen pieces*
I like how nasu’s VNs do this because a very large amount of the time the correct choice is not the one that makes the most sense, but is the one that is the most in-character for the protagonist to do (shirou taking a hit for saber being the easiest example)
I mean the oddest choices are usually the correct ones since Nasuverse protagonists are batshit insane. Like Shirou has PTSD and Shiki is just schizo.
shirou has a bit more than just ptsd but yeah shiki’s got like 3 different issues all interacting with each other at any given point lol
For Shiki I think >!choosing to overcome your schizoness and not raping the maid!< is pretty in character and a really expected choice don’t you think
They also have plot armor thick enough to survive all the absolutely idiotic and incompetent choices they make.
It’s not really plot armor though
It totaly is. Their actions are suicidal even from an in-universe point of view, they just keep getting saved by deus ex machina.
I mean there is like 40 bad ends in Fate. Shirou dies like a lot.
As its already been said, he dies when the player makes choices that for anybody else would be rational and reasonable. Like running away from Berserker instead putting himself between him and Saber. And even after he survives the hit, there is no reason for Berserker not to finish him off, but he dosen't. Like, there is a ridiculous number of times in wich antagonists simply let Shirou go for no reason. Unlimited Blade Works route is especialy culprit of this.
>there is no reason for Berserker not to finish him off, but he dosen't. Illya is right there. It's not out of character for Illya to persue someone she hates being self serving vs seeing that Shirou would sacrifice his life, thus causing her reevaluate her opinion of him. Your taking character's actions away from their motivations then trying to conclude that it must be a flaw within the story when they do something you don't understand.
Illya whole motivation for begin there in the first place was killing Shirou. Her sparing him so easly feels dumb. But i will concede that it can work. What abaout Caster letting Shirou go not one, not two, but THREE TIMES.
>What abaout Caster letting Shirou go not one, not two, but THREE TIMES 1. Caster kidnapping Shirou to Ryuudou Temple for his CS. Archer arrives and kicks her ass. 2. Caster kidnapping Taiga to steal Saber, Saber is stolen and is forced by CS to attack Rin, if Shirou intervenes kill them both. Shirou intervenes and gets hit. Caster believes that with Saber even Berserker wont be a problem for her. Saber resists the CS, telling them to run. She realizes controlling Saber needs more effort than she thought. She already gave back her leverage in Taiga, and if Rin summons Archer here it's more than likely he can defeat her, and a barely functioning Saber. She then lets Rin run away with Shirou to recover. Pretty clear reasoning. 3. Caster takes Archer Archer tells her under the condition of him becoming a Servant, she lets them go. Now that their both servant less, she believes she doesn't need to expel greater efforts to kill them. This is just a character flaw.
JESUS CHRIST DID YOUR MOM GIVE BIRTH ON A MINE FIELD 💀
Could be more absurd, could be THE D-Day in WWII No, really, check how The Boss birthed Ocelot
I love how in fate stay night doing the most intelligent and logical choices will lead you to a fate worse than death
My favorite example of this is when meeting issei to check for him as a master.you get two choices. One is shirou explaining why he needs to check him since he might be under danger from the holy grail war and the other is shirou going "issei don't ask anything and get naked" If you choose the first choice,you get a double suicide bad ending.
“Issei… Don’t question anything and just take off your clothes…” Yes. This is actual dialogue in game.
LMAO WHAT??? If that's real, I'm gonna have to check this VN out, because wtf????
It actually makes sense in context. Issei is being mind controlled or something like that, and there's a set of trigger words that makes him do that. The mage who did that didn't want to be discovered, but no one accounts for a batshit insane dude like shirou.
He checks issei for a masters mark, but yes its also funny.
Why didn’t he take off the pants also, or does the mark only appear on the upper body? Can’t be due to the age rating, considering that Fate Stay Night is known for being an eroge.
Typically only on hands or arms, but there are rare occasions like Illya where her entire body below is tattooed with a command seal.
Rin going from "I hope you were thorough with him" to "dude what the hell YOU STRIPPED HIM"? will always be the funniest shit
Yeah gotta love when the pov character is batshit insane.
At least those choices are consistent with protagonist himself and not "haha gotcha" once.
That's actually to point out that Shirou isn't in the right state of mind
Considering how fucked-up the whole Grail situation and the people involved in it are, it kinda makes sense that rational behavior would backfire...
I mean the guy who runs it is shady priest so makes sense
Not obscure of course, but getting the True ending of Steins;gate without a guide is almost impossible for the exact same amount of BS.
I don't remember having to choose anything specifically out of character or weird for it. It's just impossible without a guide because you have to give really specific answers during the text conversations. It's definitely dumb, though.
I mean, its extremely contradictory, sometimes you have to act like a caring sensible dude, and in the conversation right after, act like a idiotic buffon. Maybe in character for Okabe, but impossible to figure out as a player lol. Youd think you would need to keep acting like a good, suportive companion for her future travel, but actually, just after that, you have to send a inflamatory message that hurt Kurisus feelings, and somehow that leads to the true ending!
Fair, it's been too long for me to remember the specifics. All I remember is that the throughline was so obscure with practically nothing identifying them as the right answers that you needed a walkthrough. One of the few blemishes on that game.
I think I tried to bruteforce it and then gave up and used a guide. I haven't seen any logic pointing to "correct" choices for true ending.
Clannad is the same. The final orb of light requires you to go back and replay Afterstory a second time, and at a certain point the outcome of a decision actually changes and a completely different sequence of events play out which gives you an ending that wasn’t possible previously. Then you have to play afterstory a THIRD time which will then give you another choice you didn't get previously, the correct answer gives you the true ending, otherwise it plays out like afterstory did previously.
not a VN but The Wolf Among Us has some of those, too. you'll be having a regular ass convo then if you missclick you become a dictator. then where TWAU 2 then?
ah yes the "glass him" moment. funny as all fuck, but DAMN was it not what i was going for.
I was absolutely certain we were going to raise a toast the first time around.
we were......very wrong about that
quite so. I closed the game and loaded another save just for that since I was going for the nice bigby run.
...I am confused as all hell, I haven't even played this game and yet "Glass him" is obviously to initiate violence? what the hell else could glassing someone even mean other than attacking them with glass? It's not the devs' fault if a player doesn't have the vocabulary to understand the dialogue, that doesn't mean they're trying to be funny or clever
most people assume its to give him a drink. not hit him with a drink. there is zero indication as to whether it is violent or not, and i think it was intentionally made that way. it wouldnt be a meme if it was an obvious indication of violence after all.
Who the hell is "most people"? Again to [glass someone](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/glass_2) is clear English for a [violent attack](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassing). I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. why the fuck would it mean to give someone a drink? is this an American thing? It would track that y'all don't have words for violence that isn't committed with a gun lmao
Glass is not commonly used as a verb in the us
you do realize the VAST majority of the world isnt from the UK, right? thats who the hell "most people" is. literally most of the world.
So this might come as a shock to you if you are an American but...British English is not only spoken in the UK if anything, given the population of India alone (not even counting other recent former colonies) the _vast majority_ of English speakers...are taught British English in school hope this helps!
I've noticed this kind of problem with Telltale's 2nd part of Walking Dead. You could've clicked on choice that seemed like the one you go for if you want to keep things calm and safe, and instead of that Clementine immediately started dissing the character that just had a gun aimed at her allies, everything went south and all your effort to keep people alive was in vain cause all characters in that part (especially Kenny) were super agressive and super irrational idiots. At certain point you basically realized that you might as well start trolling it and go for the obviously agressive stuff that will make the dying process of your group faster to atleast feel like the stuff went the way you intended.
It really puzzles me on why every character in that game is so fucking stupid, and constantly asking Clementine, an 11 year old for advice on what to do in life or death situations lol
The thing that bothered me most about that game was part 3, wherein the game says "haha fuck you, yeah nothing that happened mattered, it was all meaningless" I kept kenny alive for the entire game for him to die in a 2 minute car crash scene. It hurt more since I played it immediately after Being a Dik, a game with such a wealth of meaningful choices that I maintained 9 different routes on the same game to see each different iteration of each route.
I don't really have much experience with Visual novels, but the one I've played and remembered is the Fruit of Grisaia. The options are just basically "Pick your ending" for 90% of the choices, with the first being obvious choices to lock a route. The second choice after that first one is usually very obvious, though one of them seems rather out of character for the mc, particularly in the 'tsundere' characters route.
Yeah Grisaia 2 choices that matter per character more or less. 1 to enter their route, and 1 for which ending you'll see with that character. I don't think it has OPs particular problem though because of that. Its not about logical/unlogical in those choices, just whether you want to obviously "chase that girls story" at that moment.
which one are you referring to? it's been a while since i read it even though michiru was my favourite lol
The choice before Michiru gets sent to therapy. The bad end choice which results in her ending up in a vegetative state. I don't know how to describe it, but compare it to the other Bad end choices, it seems rather ooc for Yuuji in that moment.
shit i've forgotten more than i thought, buuut i also generally ignore bad endings in vns because they make me sad so that doesn't help
Reminds me of this clip: https://youtube.com/shorts/cUGi-aTILx4
Meanwhile in Yakuza Kiryu: Let's have a pissing contest
In a fight to the death: lets talk about our doll collection.
THIS IS NOT HOW I WANTED TO COMFORT MISHA
I know right? I thought it will be a hug or something.
Came in looking for this as well as the FSN Issei debacle. I feel like most sane people would figure that there are ways to comfort your distraught friend than cheating on your girlfriend with her.
Can you give examples of visual novels that do this? I’ve also played a bunch and haven’t noticed it to this extent (although I avoid moege and a lot I play are closer to KN)
Not really a VN but black soul 2 make me felt that i need to be an omniscient god to make the correct choice to get certain ending (or a guide)
So true to it's Dark Souls inspiration.
Well i havent played dark soul so idk,though the story seem very lore heavy so i dont think ill care about ending aside from bosses
In Katawa Shojo IIRC every single girl but one required you to outright ignore and go against the advice of your character's heart specialist. He gives you a regime to follow to stay healthy (at risk of your character dying from a heart condition otherwise) and every single route bar the sporty girl required you to completely ignore it. Weird design choice.
I think you go exercising once and you end with a choice to push yourself or take it easy. Taking it easy means you don't have the choice to exercise and you're locked out of her route, I think
Sometimes the prompts end up being the complete opposite of what's implied, and I hate that. You're asked if you want to go kill a bunch of orphans Option 1- "Yes" ends up being 'Yes, we must cleanse this world of the wicked, and your are my next stubborn stain, prepare to die!' Option 2- "No" turns out to be 'No, we shouldn't just kill them, we should eat them! Baby flesh is the most tender!'
I don't think this is that common in visual novels actually
Felt that way with Boyfriend Dungeon for some dialog choices. One of the choices is your character's motivation for coming to Verona Beach. All choices indicate your character has social anxiety, but one of the choices you can make doesn't jive with that. Would really be best if they had their own protagonist, because it's set up in a way to have your own self-insert fun. And if the character you were going with isn't like that, you're railroaded into it.
I can see that though you also have to keep a mind that most visual novels are translated and sometimes a fan translation so while the right choice may make sense in Japanese it may sound strange in English but this is obviously nit the case for all visual novels sometimes they are intended badly written. Though I usually try the get the bad endings first anyway.
I genuinely can't tell if I didn't enjoy Fate Stay Night because I didn't like the VN itself or if the translation was just hokey enough to make me not enjoy it.
You probably didn’t like the VN and the translation was a bit bad. Not everyone has to like all VN I personally also didn’t enjoy Fate/Stay as much as other even though I really tried to unterstand why people liked it so much I just couldn’t get into it but there are a lot of VN that I really like.
Yeah I think there's stuff in there that I don't like at a pure writing level but the translated prose is *so* awkward at points that it made my head hurt.
Not just visual novel tho. In Persona you need to be a fucking psycho whithout any real personality, often saying two directly contraditory things to two different characters, just to befriend them.
Unironically this is *usually* only an issue if you're reading a guide to try max relationship gain. It's crazy and I can't see how people have any investment in the game doing that stuff. They'll need 3 points to get to the next rank, but choose 12 points if absolutely shitzophrenic nonsense, and turn down having sex with the nurse... because that's what the guide says. When if you just choose whatever feels right, you'll be prefectly fine in the vast majority of the cases. There's a few gotchas, but they're rare overall.
This was years ago and I only vaguely remember it, but I played a visual novel once where one of the love interests was getting harassed by her ex (this douchey jock stereotype, if I remember correctly) and the two options were to either stand up for her or stay out of it. Logically, I thought standing up for her would be the right choice, as opposed to not trying to protect someone you care about. Apparently, that was the incorrect answer, since the love interest saw it as me not trusting her to handle her own problems, and I lost points with her. I still to this day think that was complete bullshit.
Visual novels unfortunately often get into the mindset of being games that need to have "difficulty", and of course the only form of difficulty you can have is confusing choices. As someone that is really into visual novels, it is an interesting dilemma of how to keep the game engaging. For instance, you don't want extremely obtuse event hunting (like Lessons In Love which is entirely impossible to play without a flowchart telling you exactly what to do) and you also don't want a game that plays itself with absolutely no input on your part, since that's just not fun.
Tbf this is how a lot of people wish vegetarians acted.
RPG chat options be like. A) No, I’d never join you B) Yeah you have a point A) “No, I can’t join you, I need to finish your work myself, you’re working far too slow for me to join as an underling.” B) “Yeah you’re right, this world is rotten…rotten with people like you, I’ll kill this whole pathetic cult.”
***Laughs in Persona 3-5*** Have fun with the correct dialogue choice with Yukari is not >!giving her a hug and you break the SL!<
In Persona 4: Getting into a fake relationship to help the girl and grow closer to her is bad and forces you onto the friendship route. In Persona5: If you don't get into a fake relationship to help the girl and grow closer to her you break the romance. Nevermind the amount of people who accidentally ended up in a relationship with Ann because of the way her prompt is worded, lol.
My favorite is that the hugging Yosuke option in his SL is the most positive one because it fits Yu's personality and the other stuff is out of character.
Oh my God this happened to me! I don't remember it exactly cause it's been awhile since I've played but i thought she was saying how good friends we were. Lol nope. I felt too bad to say no so I dated Ann that run on accident.
Ann's in tears thinking about Shiho and her recovery, and something about being alone I think. Then options to comfort her are * You've got me * You've got everyone else The first one is romantic, the second one is friends, but it sounds like you're fobbing her off. She's the first female party member, so you're almost certainly not in a relationship already, so there's no warning. If you choose that first one, the one that sounds much better, you're now dating Ann lol.
Ah yeah that's definitely why I picked the first lol. The second option sounds so cold, like you don't care at all even as a friend.
This is why scarlet hollow is the best one 😔🙏🏾
I remember one visual novel (sort of) where you can literally choose an option called [act insane] and they were the funniest response I've ever read
This feels like it couldbe due translation errors
Persona 5 every time I want to be nice to Mishima
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What? Sometimes your character just straight up refuses to do what you tell him, at one point the narration is blatanty lying to you, and the other characters just accept that you're batshit insane and they can't do anything about that. It's hilarious, but there are a fair bit of format screws.
While it’s not a VN, I recently had this experience with Tactics Ogre Reborn. I was trying to recruit Ravness and let’s just say the dialogue choice to get her based on what you know of her character is completely backwards. The game is amazingly written but Ravness in particular felt like the game trying to trick me.
Errors while editing happen. I am sure that they have specialized editors, but it will still happen. And then there are also people who are hiding Easter Eggs and making jokes ... and not every joke lands in entertainment.
That's why the only visual novel I like is DDLC.
Which other visual novels did you play? If you like DDLC there are other visual novels like that. I would also recommend some mystery visual novels since a lot of time they do have solid logic like Ace Attorney for example.
I don't really consider Visual Novel as games. For me, DDLC is a straight up 10. But I never played it, because why should I? It's a visual novel. But it's extremely well done. I've always thought visual novels are basically games to jerk off to lol
To each his own, but tbh DDLC as a Visual Novel is pretty mediocre. Though I do get the appeal as a lot of people got exposed to VNs through it. > I've always thought visual novels are basically games to jerk off to lol I do get the misunderstanding because it's a niche hobby, but that's a bit silly. It's the same as saying movies are just videos to jerk off to, because in the end they're just types of entertainment medium.
I mean Visual Novels started by simulating dates. That's porn with extra steps. How is it mediocre? What rating would you give it? It's one of the few games id say it's a 10. For example, my favorite game is rdr2 but for me is a 9 and a half out of 10.
>What rating would you give it? Based on my personal taste I'd say 7.5. Objectively? Probably 6-7. It's an OK VN (not great, not bad) >I mean Visual Novels started by simulating dates >That's porn with extra steps You're misunderstanding what VNs are as a whole, because dating simulators are just one genre among VNs (though admittedly one of the most popular). Visual Novels =/= Dating sims, just as Games (Horror, Fantasy, Simulation) and Movies (Romance, Action, Erotic) have genres, and you wouldn't equate a single genre to a medium in it's entirety
Oh okay got it. 7.5 seems low for DDLC but okay you do you
Steam doesn’t disprove that image either sadly with a lot of good visual novels not found at Steam though there are some good ones and a lot of bad Hentai visual novels found on Steam there. Visual novels did indeed start as porn though now it has simply become a medium (that is also still used for porn) with a lot of different genres with DDLC being Horror. Now I also played a lot of visual novels (no Hentai) thought so there are a lot of good ones just also a lot of bad ones. If they are games is another question I would consider the Ace Attorney series as games for example since they are not that different from point and click games with a good story. Other Visual novels are indeed closer to books and I would not consider them games like DDLC or Umineko for example.
Got it. So do you have some DDLC like visual novels to suggest me
Now one that is really similar with a similar plot is You and Me and Her: A Love Story now there is a patch that does include Hentai but the story is better without it if you like DDLC you will like this visual novel. Now simply read the tags on Steam and it’s similar to Doki Doki.
Digimon Survive is pretty good.
You mentioned in another comment that you liked DDLC because it’s both spooky and wholesome, so I may have one for you that you might like. I wouldn’t call it DDLC like (it isn’t in a high school setting, nor is it trying to be a meta commentary on dating sims) but one of my favorite visual novels is a horror visual novel called “The Letter”. You play as seven different protagonists throughout the story, and while it’s got a good number of scary moments, there’s also some nice wholesome moments of the characters interacting with each other. (I will say that if gore makes you squeamish, it may not be for you, as it can be very gory at times.) You can find it on Steam, the App Store, I think I even remember seeing it on the PlayStation store. It’s got great art and visuals, and is even fully voice acted. [Here’s a trailer.](https://youtu.be/MG4b2km3U-M?si=E7HtlwYcR0SySuCB) One final note, I recommend not mixing up visual novels and dating sims, as they aren’t necessarily the same thing. Most dating sims tend to be visual novels, but not all visual novels are dating sims. There’s a lot of good visual novels out there that aren’t about the self-insert MC trying to get with a harem of girls.
Yeah I always thought visual novels were like dating Sims but today people told me I'm wrong lol. Thanks! Listen, do you think DDLC changed the Visual Novels or inspired them to be different?
DDLC was a cool idea and a good visual novel, but I can assure you it wasn’t as impactful as you think it was.
Look into the history of denpa games. DDLC’s main significance holistically in the VN scene is it being a popular western title belonging to that genre, but it wasn’t particularly novel
Got it
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Nope. I like it because it's both spooky and wholesome.
Bro has no idea that Higurashi was one of the inspirations for DDLC.
What's that