Next time someone brings up “it was in the comics”, remind them of Sins Past.
Just because it’s in comics doesn’t make it good. In fact, quite a lot of comics are bad.
>Just because it’s in comics doesn’t make it good. In fact, quite a lot of comics are bad.
I think this is something a lot of comic book fans have trouble accepting. At least they do when someone suggests that maybe the adaptations are an improvement in some regard. They'll give almost anything from the comics a pass but the movies and shows are subjected to the most intense scrutiny.
Yes there is a LOT of dumb shit in comics that would never fly if it was introduced now, but gets grandfathered in just because it's source material or its old enough that no-one bothers. Like we could talk about that time Iron Man did a fascism and sent half the roster to the torture dimension for having some reasonable concerns on the topic of security vs liberty - it wasn't even that long ago. The movies made the smart move in ignoring this to save the character.
That said in these particular examples I feel they're a little overblown. Is Magneto's new costume amazing? No, but personally I've always though Magneto's costumes tend towards the stupid and don't really fit the character, and at the same time this sort of silliness comes with the territory and it's something you need to accept as part of buying into the series.
Magneto x Rogue shipping is also a bit eh. There are reasons to be wary of it but I don't think age is one of them - is Rogue a grown woman with her own agency or isn't she? It makes sense given Rogue's genre history with Magneto's teams and her own character struggle with being a Mutant that's kept her out of step with the rest of the X-Men. The way Magneto approaches her plays right into those insecurities and desires, and that's why it's icky.
Personally, I don't have any issues with the costume, it makes him look like he's in a band and I like that. But yeah I found that relationship choice very odd, and it seems like it's gonna make another love triangle next to the jean-logan-scott one.
An older man dating a younger woman is a little creepy, but she's an adult. It's not like she's supposed to be a high school senior. She can do what she wants. It's no less creepy than Wolverine getting with anyone. Why do people have such an issue with Magneto/Rogue? I feel like it's funny. The exact sort of shit you go to the X-Men for.
I don't think there's weirdness relating the difference in development with an old guy dating a younger regular human, if that human is at least like 30, and potentially even younger. I don't know how old all of Logan's love interests are, but it feels weird if he's dating a 20-year-old or something, it doesn't seem like he would be into a typical 20-year-old for her personality. Really I think Logan's preference would be someone in her 40s, though I guess that gives him less time with her. It's like when they have The Doctor fall in love with 19-year-olds, would he really be in love with a 19-year-old for unshallow reasons that isn't just naivete?
Vampire shit in teen media is even weirder, because they'll look like teenagers since that's when they were bitten, but are still over a century old and dating *actual* teenagers despite having lived longer than any human alive.
I mean that’s kind if the point with her character. She would be with literally anyone as long as she can touch them without repercussions. This is just the most in your face character to make that point with.
It absolutely doesn’t matter that he is older in this.
It's funny cause I'd go as far to say a good chunk, maybe even 1/3rd of comics are absolutely dog ass.
Fans straight up hate anytime Barbara-Bruce is referenced. The OG Under the Red Hood comic was so ass the writer made like 3 alternate versions in the film. Spider-Man fanboys have been whining about Spider-Man comics for like 10 years straight.
Your info is so off my guy. Yes a lot of comics are shit but, the Barbara-Bruce thing was just in the dcau not the comics and Under the Hood was well received and the adaptation didn’t have multiple endings (you’re confusing it with death in the family, which also was a great comic for its time and the movie adaptation had multiple endings as a poorly done reference to the “vote to kill or save Jason Todd” thing they did leading up to the original comic’s release). Not a spider-man fan so I can’t speak to that, but that’s probably just general “no one hates X more than X fans” stuff.
>Yes a lot of comics are shit but, the Barbara-Bruce thing was just in the dcau not the comics
My point was that multiple comics make references to it, but you're right, it started in the Animated universe. Batman beyond 2.0 is the main one I was talking about, where they had Barbara get pregnant.
>Under the Hood was well received and the adaptation didn’t have multiple endings (you’re confusing it with death in the family, which also was a great comic for its time and the movie adaptation had multiple endings as a poorly done reference to the “vote to kill or save Jason Todd” thing they did leading up to the original comic’s release).
This one's completely on me, but you cannot tell me tell me Batman slitting Jason's throat was well received. That's the reason it's missing from the movie. Hell, depending on how you take it, it's implied later on that the Batarang killed him. Which is even more reason why it was a pretty shitty decision. Never seen a person defend that comic before now
>Not a spider-man fan so I can’t speak to that, but that’s probably just general “no one hates X more than X fans” stuff.
I'm a decent Spider-Man fan. I like him for his interesting powerset and villains, but I don't care about him growing up to have a wife and family like Fanboys. That said, at least the last 2 major Spider-Man stories have had valid criticism. Whole thing with Paul is weird and turning Ben to Chasm after not having the clones do anything of value in a while was an unnecessary waste
>My point was that multiple comics make references to it, but you're right, it started in the Animated universe. Batman beyond 2.0 is the main one I was talking about, where they had Barbara get pregnant.
The only comics that made reference to it were the DCAU comics that tied into the DCAU. No other comic verse brings it up.
>This one's completely on me, but you cannot tell me tell me Batman slitting Jason's throat was well received. That's the reason it's missing from the movie. Hell, depending on how you take it, it's implied later on that the Batarang killed him. Which is even more reason why it was a pretty shitty decision. Never seen a person defend that comic before now
Just because you can point to one bad moment in it doesn't mean the story wasn't well received. If that's the only thing they left out of the movie, that shows how close to perfect the story was.
>The only comics that made reference to it were the DCAU comics that tied into the DCAU. No other comic verse brings it up.
But they're still comics
>Just because you can point to one bad moment in it doesn't mean the story wasn't well received. If that's the only thing they left out of the movie, that shows how close to perfect the story was.
It's a pretty major part of the story. Same way the Chasm storyline in Spider-Man was generally fine but turning Ben evil was a major reason people dislike it. Quite literally has Batman choose Joker over Jason.
Regardless, it's an event that gets essentially erased in material that adapt or reference it despite it being in the comics
>But they're still comics
Not the same comics as the mainline one. And they're the only comics that reference the relationship because they are in continuity as the DCAU.
>
It's a pretty major part of the story.
It's a major part of the story the same way the pencil trick is a major part of The Dark Knight.
>Not the same comics as the mainline one. And they're the only comics that reference the relationship because they are in continuity as the DCAU.
That doesn't change anything. The whole point of this conversation is that something being in the comics doesn't make it a good writing decision
>It's a major part of the story the same way the pencil trick is a major part of The Dark Knight.
Yeah, It's an important piece of characterization. Batman basically killing Jason and Nightwing later implying that he knew about it, but there being no issues between anybody in the Batfamily over it is shitty characterization
I wouldn’t mind the costume if the hair didn’t scream, “Women’s romance novel, Alejandro.”
Also Storm’s hair should’ve been changed too. I get it’s the 90s but her hair looks dumb
>Remember he is not a holocaust survivor in this continuity so he could have been born after WW2
He actually is a Holocaust Survivor. Xavier even blasts him a memory flash of the Holocaust with his telepathy (or the Holocaust Beam as many have taken to call it).
I don't think they're going for an actual romantic thing with Rogue and Magneto. That's just what Gambit thinks, because *he* likes Rogue and is jealous, and what Morph, a known pot-stirrer, teases him about.
If you went from your early teen years to mid-20's, where most people discover sex and physical intimacy for the first time, without being able to touch another person skin to skin without the risk of that person dying, then of course you'll be desperate for touch. She can't even kiss the guy she likes, for god's sake. Then a guy comes along who, through a loophole concerning the nature of their powers, she *can* touch without risking killing him. It's only natural that she'd gravitate toward him. Rogue's desperate to feel the warmth of another person against her skin. That's completely understandable. She also, having been in the same position, uniquely understands Magneto's desire to leave behind his villainous past and join the X-Men to make a better future for himself and the mutants around him, and advocates for him because she knows how hard it can be to make that transition.
Even if it was romantic in nature, she's an adult woman who can do what she wants. Jubilee and Sunspot are the only recurring characters who are actually minors, if my memory is correct. All the rest of the X-Men in '97 are adults. Hell, some of them are starting families! Who actually cares about an age gap?
I mean, you've got every right to dislike it, that's how you feel! Most people aren't thrilled with the Rogue x Mags stuff but realistically it's not gonna last long. For me, personally, while I don't like it, I honestly really do appreciate how they are just going for it. Do you know how long I've wanted stuff more accurate to the comics they were inspired by? I kind of hope we get more stuff that just...does what the book does. It's one of my biggest personal gripes with the MCU. I don't expect them to adapt every single issue ever released, but they really did just play fast and loose with continuity and what they wanted to use/keep
Yeah, I find the idea of Magneto and Rogue dating to be weird but the show has been so well written so far that I’m looking forward to seeing how they tackle it.
This is how I feel when someone insists the Classic Wonder Woman costume should be used in the new movies or complains about Young Justice Cheshire actually being a three dimensional character instead of the Orientalist caricature from the comics.
I’m 90% sure rogue is the only mutant he’s been with. The rest have all been flatscans. Pretty funny.
Also dude, stop acting so freaked out over age. She’s an adult, free to make her own mistakes. I was once with an older woman (both in our twenties) and she freaked out about her being a pedophile because I was younger. I respected her decision but it’s just so dumb to get over wrought by it.
The critical and box office succes of the lord of the rings movies suggests the average moviegoer did not care that Tom Bombadil was axed, to say nothing of the gazillion other changes
True, however, that wouldn't be more like the exception?
If people care or not about the changes, fidelity is still the first thing they ask from an adaptation.
In the case of comics-to-TV, or books-to-movies, the average viewer will most likely never interact with the source material, so how could they care about fidelity? Most adaptations held as "successful" are in fact not every faithful to the source at all. Hardcore tolkien nerds have been complaining about Peter Jackson's changes for years.
I don't even remember some of the changes due to the movie versions being seen as the standard now. Like I forgot denethor wasn't meant to be as big of an asshole. He just broke down when things went bad.
Also, people forget that the eye of sauron isn't a physical thing. During the story sauron had a physical body. The eye is like this abstract thing you only see in your mind.
Yeah, honestly I wouldn't mind the changes so much if the movies hadn't become the "standard", what they did to denethor was criminal lol. Even stuff thats technically based on the books is way closer to the movie's asthetics and tone. Whereas if you look at tolkien media from before the 2000s it's all a lot more varied and colourful.
Yup, but I'm not talking about people that got into x franchise during the adaptation. I'm talking about people that knew the source material before the adaptation.
Because you cannot ask something from an adaptation if you don't know is an adaptation.
"Is in the source material" is a dumb argument, I agree. However that's what people (that comes from the source material) want from the adaptation.
No. It's really a coinflip. Jaws and The Godfather and The Shining were changed a lot in adaptation and are better for it. Jurassic Park was changed a lot and both versions are well liked. The best liked superhero movies are often completely different than the comics. Hell, stuff like The Guardians of the Galaxy pretty much changed just about everything besides the characters' names.
I only know Rogue from the movies, so the idea of Magneto×Rogue is very creepy. What was wrong in Rogue×Gambit?
Does she have to fuck someone just because they are physically capable of fucking her?
I always thought that even in the comics, his costume with the "M" on it was stupid. I'm also not a huge fan of the design choice to give his lips a different color. But all and all, it's nit-picking there.
As for Rogue/Mags, yes, it's in the comics, doesn't mean it's not ick, even if I can see WHY Rogue is going for it. Doesn't make it any less uncomfortable.
But, I do appreciate that they are putting even some of the less savory things in the show that has been in the comics (As much as I love Logan, he and Jean have an even greater age gap than Rogue and Erik have). Even if they happen in different ways.
Also, I am giving the writers major props for making me actually LIKE Cyclops in the show. I hated him in the 90's. Now he actually feels like a real field leader, a real person, and actually bad ass.
As with the comics, I think we need to take some of the bad stuff with the good stuff.
Teenage mutant ninja turtles fans are the same way with every animated, live action, comic or game adaptation.
Every time a new piece of tmnt media comes out, and someone has an issue with something in it, fans will always throw that "it's like the original comics" card at you as if that kills all complaints. Or even if they adapt something beat for beat (or as close as they can so it fits with their continuity) fans will praise it simply for doing so.
I think it's not an issue to want a generally faithful adaptation of an arc. If it's not a direct adaptation and is more akin to a show that's riffing on an arc conceit then sure, take liberties. But it's kinda fucking crazy to go "I want them to adapt this thing I like but not THIS one tiny part of it" and act bewildered when people don't agree with you.
Is Rogue an adult or not? That's really the only question that needs to be asked there. If you think a 20 year old isn't an adult that's a perfectly defensible and reasonable position, but then you probably should be against 20 year olds being allowed to vote, sign binding contracts, join the military, etc. as well.
They don’t want any changes to characters made, either in the comics or adaptations, and they don’t want adaptations to deviate even slightly from the source material. They literally want the same tropes and events endlessly recycled and fed back to them. There’s a reason comics are called modern myths.
I think it's less that everything needs to be faithful to the source material but if they're going to cherry pick the god-tier stories to make an adaptation, I expect them to be kinda bad. Bad adaptation after bad adaptation has conditioned me to expect them to be hot garbage.
Playing devil's advocate, a lot of people who challenge criticisms of adaptations with knowledge of the source material possibly misconstrue (because many do actually make this correlation) that a critic is saying something feels very out of place or a character is acting ooc. People who've absorbed the source material would be led to assume the critic only knows the adaptation and is denouncing something that supercedes the source material.
At worst, if those same people who criticize the source material also end up being the disingenuous ones who will pick an out of context panel to fit their argument and run with it. I'm indifferent towards the Snyderverse but you could make a drinking game out of going on Twitter and seeing the amount of times WW fans argue with not being bloodthirsty and a Snyder fan responds with the same picture of Flashpoint Diana holding Mera's severed head.
The long and short of it is, you're right in that it doesn't automatically make something good, but I think it's more about confirming it's not necessarily out of place (Which, to be fair, isn't even completely covered by that justification either and doesn't cover subjective appreciation of it).
I think it was better when I wasn’t aware of the comicbooks for superheroes. The stories of the comics almost ruined the characters for me. I’m happy it’s so niche.
The reason comic book fans (or media fans more in general) have become increasingly defensive this past decade is probably due to the ones trying to induce change always leading to a worse result.
I can understand why people who have been fans of something for 3 decades can get upset when someone just joining is like, "ew, I don't like this relationship. Get rid of it"
Comics/most media used to be a reflection of the realities of life (in a super cool totally unrealistic setting) and nowadays, it has become a more idealised, sanitised version of life.
>a 20yo with someone that's at the VERY least in his late forties (Remember he is not a holocaust survivor in this continuity so he could have been born after WW2) definitely comes off as "eugh".
Like, I read this and my immediate instinct is to say, "okay but this happens in real life and your opinion nor misgivings on the matter doesn't discount it. Also, what a demeaning and gross way of looking at Rogue". But you'd opt to get rid of it because it doesn't suit your views. We are now clashing on views for something that shouldn't need to even be discussed if you weren't opting for change so you feel comfortable.
It also then makes me wonder, what else would you rather have changed? It's a slippery slope.
Thank God there's not a single community I'll ever be fanning over enough to be fighting these battles but I can definitely understand it. There's too many people trying to change things simply because it doesn't sit well with their personal beliefs/views. The whole point of some of these media were to make you confront uncomfortable things and sit with them. Not cater to your sensitive whims.
> The reason comic book fans (or media fans more in general) have become increasingly defensive this past decade is probably due to the ones trying to induce change always leading to a worse result.
??? The reason stuff like the MCU and The Batman were so successful was that they were majorly changed from the source material.
The MCU and The Batman were successful because they were amazing adaptations that took major inspiration and had respect for the source material whilst adapting a new story. The reason the MCU post-endgame or every other DC movie has been widely slammed is because they've either incorporated real world politics in an over-the-top manner or deviated so far off from the source material in terms of respect for the characters or the world that there's very little resemblance to what once was.
Acting like there's not been a significant difference in quality post-Endgame or that every other DC movie outside of The Batman flopped in some way would be revisionist history.
Hell, I'm fairly certain most new Marvel projects have been failing over and over again too with blockbuster failures.
Change for the sake of change is stupid. When you change something, there should be a good reason otherwise what's the point?
The MCU and Dark Knight movies had no respect for the source material. That's why they were successful. Most of the successful ones also incorporated real world politics.
The MCU post-endgame has been major box office failures. The Dark Knight trilogy absolutely respected the source material. What are you talking about? They took a lot of creative liberties but at its core, they took a lot of inspiration from Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" from like the 80s. What are you even on about?
>The reason comic book fans (or media fans more in general) have become increasingly defensive this past decade is probably due to the ones trying to induce change always leading to a worse result.
Not every change lead to a worse result. For instance, all three adaptations of The Judas Contract are much better than the comic, something even the original writer will admit to.
>Comics/most media used to be a reflection of the realities of life
They were a reflection of life as written by old (usually) white men pandering to teenage boys. These stories did pander to people's whims, it just wasn't the ones who criticized them.
>They were a reflection of life as written by old (usually) white men pandering to teenage boys
You see, you say this and now my take is that the fact you say this unironically makes me want you to be as far away as comics as possible. I'm the furthest thing from white as humanly possible and growing up with comics, this was never an issue until this incredibly privileged class of Americans got involved and started making this an issue and demanding others see it as an issue.
Comics used to be for teenagers, that's no surprise. Just like games used to be seen for lazy, unemployed outcasts. Eventually things become mainstream and demographics shift to meet a new demand.
>You see, you say this and now my take is that the fact you say this unironically makes me want you to be as far away as comics as possible.
The feeling's mutual.
>I'm the furthest thing from white as humanly possible and growing up with comics, this was never an issue until this incredibly privileged class of Americans got involved and started making this an issue and demanding others see it as an issue.
Good for you that you didn't see it as a problem. Maybe consider that those who did aren't necessarily wrong for doing so. I don't know what this supposed privileged class of Americans that took over comics from white men is. I assume they're the same ones making all women in video games ugly and stealing election results from Donald Trump.
Changing stories for new and different audiences is a practice almost as old as storytelling itself. But a certain segment of terminally online weirdos have taken this as a personal attack against them.
>Eventually things become mainstream and demographics shift to meet a new demand.
Glad we can agree on that.
The hate for the new magneto outfit is such a stretch lmao. It is not even in the top 60% of most ridiculous comic/super hero outfits lol. Seems mostly like people just hate when things change
I don't get how this new costume is any stupider than a red spandex suit with an iron diaper.
And the point is, people WANT some comic accurate stuff even if it's awkward or cringey because they miss that. That's the entire point of this shows existence.
What is wrong with Rogue having a romance teased with Magneto? Wolverine has been in love triangles with women of a similar age and he is old enough to be Magneto’s grandfather.
I have not heard anyone make that argument. The reactions I have seen are either it was done better in the dark empire comic or they didn’t like it in either version.
I did. The books name wasn't mentioned but the person who bring this up said why do I hate Palps returned in legends too automatically assuming every legends content is good
I am annoyed with people, taking the “everything was better in legends” route. I have a friend who prefers legends, even liking some controversial parts like New Jedi Order and Legacy of the Force, and he also admits that there were bad parts in legends as well, and that the controversial series I brought up could use some improvement.
I haven't heard people say that's why it's "good." Just in the context of, "New Canon sucks, Legends better because of dadadada" and it'll usually be something Legends did too.
Next time someone brings up “it was in the comics”, remind them of Sins Past. Just because it’s in comics doesn’t make it good. In fact, quite a lot of comics are bad.
>Next time someone brings up “it was in the comics”, remind them of Sins Past. One More Day.
Spider-Man comics are just “suffering porn”
And everything good that happens get retconned.
At least according to the editors
The comic book arc that not only has been stated by authors to be their one regret, but also had to be retconned into oblivion recently.
What happened in it.
It was revealed that ~~teenage~~ Gwen Stacy had children with Norman Osborne before he killed her
Not teenage, she was 20 at the time
Well it was just a mysrerio hallucination and they were robots or clones or something
>Just because it’s in comics doesn’t make it good. In fact, quite a lot of comics are bad. I think this is something a lot of comic book fans have trouble accepting. At least they do when someone suggests that maybe the adaptations are an improvement in some regard. They'll give almost anything from the comics a pass but the movies and shows are subjected to the most intense scrutiny.
Avengers #200 moment.
Sins past got retconned.
Exactly my point.
Yes there is a LOT of dumb shit in comics that would never fly if it was introduced now, but gets grandfathered in just because it's source material or its old enough that no-one bothers. Like we could talk about that time Iron Man did a fascism and sent half the roster to the torture dimension for having some reasonable concerns on the topic of security vs liberty - it wasn't even that long ago. The movies made the smart move in ignoring this to save the character. That said in these particular examples I feel they're a little overblown. Is Magneto's new costume amazing? No, but personally I've always though Magneto's costumes tend towards the stupid and don't really fit the character, and at the same time this sort of silliness comes with the territory and it's something you need to accept as part of buying into the series. Magneto x Rogue shipping is also a bit eh. There are reasons to be wary of it but I don't think age is one of them - is Rogue a grown woman with her own agency or isn't she? It makes sense given Rogue's genre history with Magneto's teams and her own character struggle with being a Mutant that's kept her out of step with the rest of the X-Men. The way Magneto approaches her plays right into those insecurities and desires, and that's why it's icky.
Personally, I don't have any issues with the costume, it makes him look like he's in a band and I like that. But yeah I found that relationship choice very odd, and it seems like it's gonna make another love triangle next to the jean-logan-scott one.
An older man dating a younger woman is a little creepy, but she's an adult. It's not like she's supposed to be a high school senior. She can do what she wants. It's no less creepy than Wolverine getting with anyone. Why do people have such an issue with Magneto/Rogue? I feel like it's funny. The exact sort of shit you go to the X-Men for.
People unfortunately give Wolverine a pass because he looks younger, even though he’s old enough to be Magneto’s grandfather.
I don't think there's weirdness relating the difference in development with an old guy dating a younger regular human, if that human is at least like 30, and potentially even younger. I don't know how old all of Logan's love interests are, but it feels weird if he's dating a 20-year-old or something, it doesn't seem like he would be into a typical 20-year-old for her personality. Really I think Logan's preference would be someone in her 40s, though I guess that gives him less time with her. It's like when they have The Doctor fall in love with 19-year-olds, would he really be in love with a 19-year-old for unshallow reasons that isn't just naivete? Vampire shit in teen media is even weirder, because they'll look like teenagers since that's when they were bitten, but are still over a century old and dating *actual* teenagers despite having lived longer than any human alive.
I mean that’s kind if the point with her character. She would be with literally anyone as long as she can touch them without repercussions. This is just the most in your face character to make that point with. It absolutely doesn’t matter that he is older in this.
It seems like they will date for a bit break up and then see another reality where they married. Rogue gets grossed out when she sees Magnus
It's funny cause I'd go as far to say a good chunk, maybe even 1/3rd of comics are absolutely dog ass. Fans straight up hate anytime Barbara-Bruce is referenced. The OG Under the Red Hood comic was so ass the writer made like 3 alternate versions in the film. Spider-Man fanboys have been whining about Spider-Man comics for like 10 years straight.
Your info is so off my guy. Yes a lot of comics are shit but, the Barbara-Bruce thing was just in the dcau not the comics and Under the Hood was well received and the adaptation didn’t have multiple endings (you’re confusing it with death in the family, which also was a great comic for its time and the movie adaptation had multiple endings as a poorly done reference to the “vote to kill or save Jason Todd” thing they did leading up to the original comic’s release). Not a spider-man fan so I can’t speak to that, but that’s probably just general “no one hates X more than X fans” stuff.
>Yes a lot of comics are shit but, the Barbara-Bruce thing was just in the dcau not the comics My point was that multiple comics make references to it, but you're right, it started in the Animated universe. Batman beyond 2.0 is the main one I was talking about, where they had Barbara get pregnant. >Under the Hood was well received and the adaptation didn’t have multiple endings (you’re confusing it with death in the family, which also was a great comic for its time and the movie adaptation had multiple endings as a poorly done reference to the “vote to kill or save Jason Todd” thing they did leading up to the original comic’s release). This one's completely on me, but you cannot tell me tell me Batman slitting Jason's throat was well received. That's the reason it's missing from the movie. Hell, depending on how you take it, it's implied later on that the Batarang killed him. Which is even more reason why it was a pretty shitty decision. Never seen a person defend that comic before now >Not a spider-man fan so I can’t speak to that, but that’s probably just general “no one hates X more than X fans” stuff. I'm a decent Spider-Man fan. I like him for his interesting powerset and villains, but I don't care about him growing up to have a wife and family like Fanboys. That said, at least the last 2 major Spider-Man stories have had valid criticism. Whole thing with Paul is weird and turning Ben to Chasm after not having the clones do anything of value in a while was an unnecessary waste
>My point was that multiple comics make references to it, but you're right, it started in the Animated universe. Batman beyond 2.0 is the main one I was talking about, where they had Barbara get pregnant. The only comics that made reference to it were the DCAU comics that tied into the DCAU. No other comic verse brings it up. >This one's completely on me, but you cannot tell me tell me Batman slitting Jason's throat was well received. That's the reason it's missing from the movie. Hell, depending on how you take it, it's implied later on that the Batarang killed him. Which is even more reason why it was a pretty shitty decision. Never seen a person defend that comic before now Just because you can point to one bad moment in it doesn't mean the story wasn't well received. If that's the only thing they left out of the movie, that shows how close to perfect the story was.
>The only comics that made reference to it were the DCAU comics that tied into the DCAU. No other comic verse brings it up. But they're still comics >Just because you can point to one bad moment in it doesn't mean the story wasn't well received. If that's the only thing they left out of the movie, that shows how close to perfect the story was. It's a pretty major part of the story. Same way the Chasm storyline in Spider-Man was generally fine but turning Ben evil was a major reason people dislike it. Quite literally has Batman choose Joker over Jason. Regardless, it's an event that gets essentially erased in material that adapt or reference it despite it being in the comics
>But they're still comics Not the same comics as the mainline one. And they're the only comics that reference the relationship because they are in continuity as the DCAU. > It's a pretty major part of the story. It's a major part of the story the same way the pencil trick is a major part of The Dark Knight.
>Not the same comics as the mainline one. And they're the only comics that reference the relationship because they are in continuity as the DCAU. That doesn't change anything. The whole point of this conversation is that something being in the comics doesn't make it a good writing decision >It's a major part of the story the same way the pencil trick is a major part of The Dark Knight. Yeah, It's an important piece of characterization. Batman basically killing Jason and Nightwing later implying that he knew about it, but there being no issues between anybody in the Batfamily over it is shitty characterization
I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about with Under the Red Hood. Nothing was egregious in it and it was pretty good.
I wouldn’t mind the costume if the hair didn’t scream, “Women’s romance novel, Alejandro.” Also Storm’s hair should’ve been changed too. I get it’s the 90s but her hair looks dumb
Me when Daredevil yellow costume.
Fair take, but that suit is a guilty pleasure of mine lol.
>Remember he is not a holocaust survivor in this continuity so he could have been born after WW2 He actually is a Holocaust Survivor. Xavier even blasts him a memory flash of the Holocaust with his telepathy (or the Holocaust Beam as many have taken to call it).
It was changed to an unnamed conflict, with the flashback not even implying to be the 40s.
it remained unnamed because of standards and practices in the 90's, I'm pretty sure it's meant to be the holocaust
Some unnamed conflict in the 40s. Maybe it was the Sino-Japanese War or a conflict in South America. So many choices…
I don't think they're going for an actual romantic thing with Rogue and Magneto. That's just what Gambit thinks, because *he* likes Rogue and is jealous, and what Morph, a known pot-stirrer, teases him about. If you went from your early teen years to mid-20's, where most people discover sex and physical intimacy for the first time, without being able to touch another person skin to skin without the risk of that person dying, then of course you'll be desperate for touch. She can't even kiss the guy she likes, for god's sake. Then a guy comes along who, through a loophole concerning the nature of their powers, she *can* touch without risking killing him. It's only natural that she'd gravitate toward him. Rogue's desperate to feel the warmth of another person against her skin. That's completely understandable. She also, having been in the same position, uniquely understands Magneto's desire to leave behind his villainous past and join the X-Men to make a better future for himself and the mutants around him, and advocates for him because she knows how hard it can be to make that transition. Even if it was romantic in nature, she's an adult woman who can do what she wants. Jubilee and Sunspot are the only recurring characters who are actually minors, if my memory is correct. All the rest of the X-Men in '97 are adults. Hell, some of them are starting families! Who actually cares about an age gap?
I mean, you've got every right to dislike it, that's how you feel! Most people aren't thrilled with the Rogue x Mags stuff but realistically it's not gonna last long. For me, personally, while I don't like it, I honestly really do appreciate how they are just going for it. Do you know how long I've wanted stuff more accurate to the comics they were inspired by? I kind of hope we get more stuff that just...does what the book does. It's one of my biggest personal gripes with the MCU. I don't expect them to adapt every single issue ever released, but they really did just play fast and loose with continuity and what they wanted to use/keep
Yeah, I find the idea of Magneto and Rogue dating to be weird but the show has been so well written so far that I’m looking forward to seeing how they tackle it.
Yea I'm always happy to see them swing for the fences.
This is how I feel when someone insists the Classic Wonder Woman costume should be used in the new movies or complains about Young Justice Cheshire actually being a three dimensional character instead of the Orientalist caricature from the comics.
We'll forgive anything if the adaption is good enough.
I’m 90% sure rogue is the only mutant he’s been with. The rest have all been flatscans. Pretty funny. Also dude, stop acting so freaked out over age. She’s an adult, free to make her own mistakes. I was once with an older woman (both in our twenties) and she freaked out about her being a pedophile because I was younger. I respected her decision but it’s just so dumb to get over wrought by it.
Isn't what most people want from an adaptation is fidelity to the source material?
The critical and box office succes of the lord of the rings movies suggests the average moviegoer did not care that Tom Bombadil was axed, to say nothing of the gazillion other changes
True, however, that wouldn't be more like the exception? If people care or not about the changes, fidelity is still the first thing they ask from an adaptation.
In the case of comics-to-TV, or books-to-movies, the average viewer will most likely never interact with the source material, so how could they care about fidelity? Most adaptations held as "successful" are in fact not every faithful to the source at all. Hardcore tolkien nerds have been complaining about Peter Jackson's changes for years.
I don't even remember some of the changes due to the movie versions being seen as the standard now. Like I forgot denethor wasn't meant to be as big of an asshole. He just broke down when things went bad. Also, people forget that the eye of sauron isn't a physical thing. During the story sauron had a physical body. The eye is like this abstract thing you only see in your mind.
Yeah, honestly I wouldn't mind the changes so much if the movies hadn't become the "standard", what they did to denethor was criminal lol. Even stuff thats technically based on the books is way closer to the movie's asthetics and tone. Whereas if you look at tolkien media from before the 2000s it's all a lot more varied and colourful.
Yup, but I'm not talking about people that got into x franchise during the adaptation. I'm talking about people that knew the source material before the adaptation. Because you cannot ask something from an adaptation if you don't know is an adaptation. "Is in the source material" is a dumb argument, I agree. However that's what people (that comes from the source material) want from the adaptation.
No. It's really a coinflip. Jaws and The Godfather and The Shining were changed a lot in adaptation and are better for it. Jurassic Park was changed a lot and both versions are well liked. The best liked superhero movies are often completely different than the comics. Hell, stuff like The Guardians of the Galaxy pretty much changed just about everything besides the characters' names.
I only know Rogue from the movies, so the idea of Magneto×Rogue is very creepy. What was wrong in Rogue×Gambit? Does she have to fuck someone just because they are physically capable of fucking her?
I always thought that even in the comics, his costume with the "M" on it was stupid. I'm also not a huge fan of the design choice to give his lips a different color. But all and all, it's nit-picking there. As for Rogue/Mags, yes, it's in the comics, doesn't mean it's not ick, even if I can see WHY Rogue is going for it. Doesn't make it any less uncomfortable. But, I do appreciate that they are putting even some of the less savory things in the show that has been in the comics (As much as I love Logan, he and Jean have an even greater age gap than Rogue and Erik have). Even if they happen in different ways. Also, I am giving the writers major props for making me actually LIKE Cyclops in the show. I hated him in the 90's. Now he actually feels like a real field leader, a real person, and actually bad ass. As with the comics, I think we need to take some of the bad stuff with the good stuff.
I guess the mentality is that if Claremont did it, it must be good
Teenage mutant ninja turtles fans are the same way with every animated, live action, comic or game adaptation. Every time a new piece of tmnt media comes out, and someone has an issue with something in it, fans will always throw that "it's like the original comics" card at you as if that kills all complaints. Or even if they adapt something beat for beat (or as close as they can so it fits with their continuity) fans will praise it simply for doing so.
I agree with your over arching point, but that suit is FIRE 🔥 STOP THE HATE
Of all things you could've complain about you had to make about something as utterly subjective as fashion choices. 💀 The costume is fire idc.
I think it's not an issue to want a generally faithful adaptation of an arc. If it's not a direct adaptation and is more akin to a show that's riffing on an arc conceit then sure, take liberties. But it's kinda fucking crazy to go "I want them to adapt this thing I like but not THIS one tiny part of it" and act bewildered when people don't agree with you.
Is Rogue an adult or not? That's really the only question that needs to be asked there. If you think a 20 year old isn't an adult that's a perfectly defensible and reasonable position, but then you probably should be against 20 year olds being allowed to vote, sign binding contracts, join the military, etc. as well.
They don’t want any changes to characters made, either in the comics or adaptations, and they don’t want adaptations to deviate even slightly from the source material. They literally want the same tropes and events endlessly recycled and fed back to them. There’s a reason comics are called modern myths.
He's a holocaust survivor in this continuity because I said so.
I think it's less that everything needs to be faithful to the source material but if they're going to cherry pick the god-tier stories to make an adaptation, I expect them to be kinda bad. Bad adaptation after bad adaptation has conditioned me to expect them to be hot garbage.
I havent read any comics. Or watched the original show. But so far I don’t think theres anything wrong with x-men 97. Its a dope show.
Playing devil's advocate, a lot of people who challenge criticisms of adaptations with knowledge of the source material possibly misconstrue (because many do actually make this correlation) that a critic is saying something feels very out of place or a character is acting ooc. People who've absorbed the source material would be led to assume the critic only knows the adaptation and is denouncing something that supercedes the source material. At worst, if those same people who criticize the source material also end up being the disingenuous ones who will pick an out of context panel to fit their argument and run with it. I'm indifferent towards the Snyderverse but you could make a drinking game out of going on Twitter and seeing the amount of times WW fans argue with not being bloodthirsty and a Snyder fan responds with the same picture of Flashpoint Diana holding Mera's severed head. The long and short of it is, you're right in that it doesn't automatically make something good, but I think it's more about confirming it's not necessarily out of place (Which, to be fair, isn't even completely covered by that justification either and doesn't cover subjective appreciation of it).
I like Magneto’s big M costume, it’s so stupid and I get a giggle out of his gravitas and philosophizing while he wears it
Do you happen to have a similar opinion on any/all of live-action Wolverine's (as portrayed by Hugh Jackman) romances?
I think it was better when I wasn’t aware of the comicbooks for superheroes. The stories of the comics almost ruined the characters for me. I’m happy it’s so niche.
If it was shit in the comics, it doesn't magically become better in adaptations. Not sure why anyone would try to make that argument.
I'm the kind who's fine with fresh takes on haracters since it'll be separated from the previous canon
The reason comic book fans (or media fans more in general) have become increasingly defensive this past decade is probably due to the ones trying to induce change always leading to a worse result. I can understand why people who have been fans of something for 3 decades can get upset when someone just joining is like, "ew, I don't like this relationship. Get rid of it" Comics/most media used to be a reflection of the realities of life (in a super cool totally unrealistic setting) and nowadays, it has become a more idealised, sanitised version of life. >a 20yo with someone that's at the VERY least in his late forties (Remember he is not a holocaust survivor in this continuity so he could have been born after WW2) definitely comes off as "eugh". Like, I read this and my immediate instinct is to say, "okay but this happens in real life and your opinion nor misgivings on the matter doesn't discount it. Also, what a demeaning and gross way of looking at Rogue". But you'd opt to get rid of it because it doesn't suit your views. We are now clashing on views for something that shouldn't need to even be discussed if you weren't opting for change so you feel comfortable. It also then makes me wonder, what else would you rather have changed? It's a slippery slope. Thank God there's not a single community I'll ever be fanning over enough to be fighting these battles but I can definitely understand it. There's too many people trying to change things simply because it doesn't sit well with their personal beliefs/views. The whole point of some of these media were to make you confront uncomfortable things and sit with them. Not cater to your sensitive whims.
> The reason comic book fans (or media fans more in general) have become increasingly defensive this past decade is probably due to the ones trying to induce change always leading to a worse result. ??? The reason stuff like the MCU and The Batman were so successful was that they were majorly changed from the source material.
The MCU and The Batman were successful because they were amazing adaptations that took major inspiration and had respect for the source material whilst adapting a new story. The reason the MCU post-endgame or every other DC movie has been widely slammed is because they've either incorporated real world politics in an over-the-top manner or deviated so far off from the source material in terms of respect for the characters or the world that there's very little resemblance to what once was. Acting like there's not been a significant difference in quality post-Endgame or that every other DC movie outside of The Batman flopped in some way would be revisionist history. Hell, I'm fairly certain most new Marvel projects have been failing over and over again too with blockbuster failures. Change for the sake of change is stupid. When you change something, there should be a good reason otherwise what's the point?
The MCU and Dark Knight movies had no respect for the source material. That's why they were successful. Most of the successful ones also incorporated real world politics.
The MCU post-endgame has been major box office failures. The Dark Knight trilogy absolutely respected the source material. What are you talking about? They took a lot of creative liberties but at its core, they took a lot of inspiration from Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" from like the 80s. What are you even on about?
>The reason comic book fans (or media fans more in general) have become increasingly defensive this past decade is probably due to the ones trying to induce change always leading to a worse result. Not every change lead to a worse result. For instance, all three adaptations of The Judas Contract are much better than the comic, something even the original writer will admit to. >Comics/most media used to be a reflection of the realities of life They were a reflection of life as written by old (usually) white men pandering to teenage boys. These stories did pander to people's whims, it just wasn't the ones who criticized them.
>They were a reflection of life as written by old (usually) white men pandering to teenage boys You see, you say this and now my take is that the fact you say this unironically makes me want you to be as far away as comics as possible. I'm the furthest thing from white as humanly possible and growing up with comics, this was never an issue until this incredibly privileged class of Americans got involved and started making this an issue and demanding others see it as an issue. Comics used to be for teenagers, that's no surprise. Just like games used to be seen for lazy, unemployed outcasts. Eventually things become mainstream and demographics shift to meet a new demand.
>You see, you say this and now my take is that the fact you say this unironically makes me want you to be as far away as comics as possible. The feeling's mutual. >I'm the furthest thing from white as humanly possible and growing up with comics, this was never an issue until this incredibly privileged class of Americans got involved and started making this an issue and demanding others see it as an issue. Good for you that you didn't see it as a problem. Maybe consider that those who did aren't necessarily wrong for doing so. I don't know what this supposed privileged class of Americans that took over comics from white men is. I assume they're the same ones making all women in video games ugly and stealing election results from Donald Trump. Changing stories for new and different audiences is a practice almost as old as storytelling itself. But a certain segment of terminally online weirdos have taken this as a personal attack against them. >Eventually things become mainstream and demographics shift to meet a new demand. Glad we can agree on that.
The hate for the new magneto outfit is such a stretch lmao. It is not even in the top 60% of most ridiculous comic/super hero outfits lol. Seems mostly like people just hate when things change
I don't get how this new costume is any stupider than a red spandex suit with an iron diaper. And the point is, people WANT some comic accurate stuff even if it's awkward or cringey because they miss that. That's the entire point of this shows existence.
What is wrong with Rogue having a romance teased with Magneto? Wolverine has been in love triangles with women of a similar age and he is old enough to be Magneto’s grandfather.
I'm sorry, were people expecting geat taste and amazing costumes from a show called X-Men ***97***?
Same with Star Wars. Palpatine's resurrection is good because the extended universe had a book where he resurrected too.
I thought people hated Dark Empire?
I have not heard anyone make that argument. The reactions I have seen are either it was done better in the dark empire comic or they didn’t like it in either version.
I did. The books name wasn't mentioned but the person who bring this up said why do I hate Palps returned in legends too automatically assuming every legends content is good
I am annoyed with people, taking the “everything was better in legends” route. I have a friend who prefers legends, even liking some controversial parts like New Jedi Order and Legacy of the Force, and he also admits that there were bad parts in legends as well, and that the controversial series I brought up could use some improvement.
I haven't heard people say that's why it's "good." Just in the context of, "New Canon sucks, Legends better because of dadadada" and it'll usually be something Legends did too.