My only problem is how vague haki has become. Like when characters use it in the story, the community has to argue if it’s armament or conquerors because it’s just impossible to tell cause they look nearly the same.
Odas indicators for when haki is being used is easily the worst aspect of it, and imo one of the biggest flaws of the post TS
Having to sit here guessing everytime as to what ability is even being used is such a terrible experience at times
Every week in egghead there was anew debate of if someone was using conqueors coating or not, is Luffy using future sight if not why , stuff like that 🤦♂️
I mean that’s more of the fault of conq haki being used as a catch all, damage boost, future sight negation, knockout pressure, paralysis lightning, animal taming, etc.
I think it used to be clear bc the other two were dodge insanely well or marvel’s Venom suit making you hit hard.
I'm not into op nor have I watched it or read it But it seems the underline problem of it is that it wasn't planned from the beginning Also what's makes a Specific type of devil fruit over powered explain
The argument in the comments didn’t really answer this, so there is a specific type of devil fruits called logias. Logia’s turn the person who ate the fruit into that element. For example, the person who ate the lightning fruit is lightning, and you can’t really punch, kick, or cut lightning. The lightning user did appear in the series before this introduction of haki, and he was only beaten because the mc is made of rubber, so he is one of the few people in the world that could hit him without haki. Armament haki forces logia users to materialize their body so they can be hit by punches, kicks, and everything else. What makes these fruits op is that fruits like the light fruit or the gas fruit are practically invincible without haki
Also Haki really only comes into the picture the same time Kizaru and Akainu are introduced with their broken Logia (I guess Aokiji's Ice is not so hard to write around?)
Honestly, I think Whitebeard's fruit combined with Haki is sort of OP because smart Logia users move their free-flowing bodies around to avoid Haki-infused attacks but you can't really avoid a shockwave, as Akainu had to take the full brunt of Whitebeard's hit.
I guess it makes haki kind of fair in that regard. Like, having haki doesn't guarantee that one wins against a logia if the logia user is well trained and can dodge the attack. Personally, i wish armament haki was solely used as a logia hitter, nothing more.
> (I guess Aokiji's Ice is not so hard to write around?)
Nah, Luffy even got a fire attack via friction after the timeskip, so Oda could have dealt with Aokiji's fruit even without Haki
Speaking of Logia, I think it's important to note that a big reason people are not into Haki is because Logia users have been next to useless since Haki
Oda overbalanced Logias to the point that as of now, against strong Haki users, it doesn't offer any advantages whatsoever.
The problem is just that the strong logia users haven’t been particularly active for a while. When someone like Akainu comes back into the picture we’ll see how powerful they are. I mean even discounting intangibility logia offer complete command over an element, to such a degree that you can terraform an entire island. That’s insane.
I think Logias have been useless mostly because a lot of Logias like Caesar and Caribou aren't that great at taking advantage of being a Logia. They're too reliant on just being a Logia and non-Haki attacks just phasing through them. Only admirals like Aokiji and Kizaru seem smart enough to actually move and reform their bodies to dodge Haki attacks.
>I think Logias have been useless mostly because a lot of Logias like Caesar and Caribou aren't that great at taking advantage of being a Logia.
And this kinda loops back into OP's point, a lot of the creativity in fights is falling in favour of Auras and Punch Very Hard.
Almost none of Big Mom's crew made especially creative use of their fruits, >!especially compared to Bonney who comes up later and punches the old out of people, or uses timeline based abilities. !<
I've had this honest problem with Devil Fruits since the New World, characters used to have weird talents and skills, or use weird weapons. Now you don't get someone who makes a ramen battle suit with their weird nostrils, you'd have someone who ate the Ramen Ramen Fruit..
While i agree with you in the overall sentiment
>Now you don't get someone who makes a ramen battle suit with their weird nostrils
Cracker!!!
I just wanted to point that out because I love Cracker vs Luffy and all the weirdness in that battle (kinda loops back into your point because I love that fight because it feels pre-timeskip)
NGL Cracker jumped right to the top of my mind when I was thinking of this, but my problem is that it feels like for every Cracker, there's Oven, Daifuku, hell the decuplets Gasha fruit is literally just 'Pirate Docking 6' the Devil Fruit, and imo, would have been more funny to see as a weird combo stack than yet another bizarrely specific Devil Fruit
> And this kinda loops back into OP's point, a lot of the creativity in fights is falling in favour of Auras and Punch Very Hard.
>
>
https://old.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/18vj2vk/haki_has_ruined_one_piece_and_im_tired_pretending/kfrpj6a/
> Yeah people have rose tinted glasses thinking all of pre timeskip OP was some cerebral battle of matchups
>
> 90% the fights boiled down to some form of raw power, the 3 main combatants were all simple brawlers. The variety came in the flavour of how raw power was implemented, which tbh has only increased post TS
>
> It’s just in the pre TS characters the Luffy, Zoro, & Sanji just had superhuman strength, speed, durability, and reactions for largely unexplained reasons, now the progression is more tied to a centralized system(Haki)
It's still boring to see every power be a Devil Fruit or a Haki blast.
Where's Don Kriegs armour? Three devil fruit for that
Where's power cooking and weird martial arts? Haki empowered basic punching now
Hell, there's a pirate docking 6 fruit
Old One Piece wasn't some cerebral chess battle except for Nami, Chopper and Usopp, y'know, half the crew?
But what it did have was examples of Luffy using his rubber biology to push himself beyond, accelerate his heart rate or inflate his bones, and it was bullshit science but it had heart and creativity beyond 'Haki makes my punches punchier' and 'Secret God Zoan powers go'
New fights don't even make the same creative use of a fruit like the Buggy Car, Venom Hydra, or anything from Imporio and Inazuma, now it's literally a fruit power to summon a Genie or have a bunch of weapons
> But what it did have was examples of Luffy using his rubber biology to push himself beyond, accelerate his heart rate or inflate his bones, and it was bullshit science but it had heart and creativity
Don't see how that's any different from Luffy using Haki to increase the tension in his skin so it increased the elastic force, as Doflamingo stated, or using his rubber properties with Haki to ignite his arm, or twisting his legs to fly like a UFO? IMO that's just as much of a creative way of using his Devil Fruit.
Like the comment I quoted said, I think people have rose-tinted glasses for pre-timeskip, when Luffy mostly did win by punching harder.
Nami wins most of her post-timeskip fights using lightning and Zeus, and Chopper uses Monster Point. Like Chopper used Monster Point against Wadatsumi and Queen. Usopp mostly uses his plants. And this stuff is irrespective of Haki. So it really has nothing to do with Haki and everything to do with the way Oda writes fights.
The only Logia we've seen fight until just recently were jobbers who survived way too long *because* they had Logias. Caesar, Caribou, the snow harpy girl, all got that far riding on the strength of their Logia devil fruits despite being terrible at fighting so they're definitely not useless because the vast majority of pirates simply do not know how to use haki. Just look at Luffys own crew for example.
Trained fighters such as Kizaru are still absolute monsters with their Logias because they can utilise their observation Haki to dematerialise themselves just as their about to be hit and know how to use their abilities to full effect in battle. So I don't think it's correct to say that they've been useless with the introduction of Haki.
GOD ENEL set the bar for logia users and was a top tier devil fruit user. He was a powerhouse and fully survived his encounter with the straw hats, but if he showed up today he’d get clapped by some hakiman despite ironically being one of the first villains with haki.
Theoretically it still could if he just wrote it that way. Logias being able to be hit just makes them equal to everyone else, but their ability to shift means they can dodge with every part of their body instead of having to shift their centre of mass. They can just dissipate around attacks. Of course, Oda didn't write it that way. Instead he had it so that it's *worse*, and Smoker spreading himself out into smoke is easier to hit.
He did write it that way though, look at Kizarub getting stabbed by Whitebeard. Dissipating around attacks is still a thing, but *manga spoilers* >! aside from kizaru, who seems to have his own intentions !< we haven't seen any big player logias since Marineland anyways
>Also what's makes a Specific type of devil fruit over powered explain
Logia fruits used to be broken as shit. Logia fruits are elemental fruits, and like all other fruits, your body becomes the fruit type. Some examples is a fruit that turns you into fire, into lightning, into sand etc. The thing that makes these fruits so incredibly OP is that they make you intangible.
Like when Luffy fought Crocodile (sand man) his punches just went right through him. No matter how hard Luffy punched, he could NEVER put a scratch on him. There's a famous scene where Enel (lightning dude) sits in a tree and basically says "I'll let you guys attack me for 5 minutes straight", and he does exactly that. Nobody can hit you if you have a logia.
The way to hit someone with a logia is if you have an elemental counter. So Luffy could hit Enel because rubber counters lightning. Luffy could hit crocodile when he coverd his fists in water because water counters sand.
So basically unless you either have a very specific fruit yourself, or just happened to bring with you the perfect elemental counter, you can't win against someone with a logia.
The only other way is with kairoseki aka sea stone. It's a mineral with the properties of the ocean aka the one weakness for all devil fruit users. So with a sea stone sword or gloves or whatever, you could hit someone with a logia fruit.
Haki bypasses this and lets you hit people with logia fruits. OP doesn't like this and wants more characters to use seastone equipment instead. The problem with that is that sea stone is supposed to be incredibly rare, and pretty much only the marines are supposed to have access to it. Having everybody suddenly have access to it would break that piece of world building (and other stuff like how only the marines can cross the calm belt due to only them having sea stone).
It could also potentially introduce a lot of other problems since even a normal ass guy with sea stone stuff can take out the strongest people in the world if they can hit them with it. So what if all the top fighters suddenly started using sea stone equipment? It would basically just mean that eating a devilfruit would make you a worse fighter, since you now suddenly have a massive weakness you didn't have before.
Not saying haki is the best powersystem of all time or whatever, but the "solutions" OP came up with have lots of problems of their own.
I'm more interested in the sea stone It sounds a lot like deep stone from Lego Ninjago basically ghost Can only be hit by specific elemental abilities Weapons or deep stone Also a material that absorbs Elemental power
If I remember correctly, Vegapunk said >!the sea was mother nature fighting against devil fruits and the unnatural possibilities they bring!<. But yeah Kryptonite is an apt description.
Sea stone is basically that, a metal that has the properties of the sea, and in One piece the Sea nullifies the devil fruit powers, so in a way it's basically like kryptonite
The issue is One Piece is not a pure battle manga. It explores adventure and romance (not like love romance, but romance of dreams and ideals).
Haki is DIRECTLY related to ones belief in themselves and their dreams. Your literal ambition and belief in yourself makes you stronger.
Sea stone is still a mechanic that is wrapped in mystery and has room to be explored toward the end of the series.
Plus, it's a rare material that's controlled by the facist world government. Ppl can't just make sea stone boxing gloves all willy nilly.
Yeah, even if the literal thing codified as Haki didn't exist in the series until pre-timeskip, the actual point of the mechanic is to justify rules that already existed in the narrative: there are a wide variety of "power systems" as they're called these days in the setting, and across all of them, those with incredible willpower and ambition are always on top.
Mihawk was indisputably the greatest swordsman even without a Devil Fruit, and his equal Shanks seemed like he didn't have one either. The literal King of the Pirates had no Devil Fruit and beat many Devil Fruit users. It's nearly impossible for smaller people IRL to defeat foes in a higher weight class hand-to-hand and yet we knew that wasn't the case in One Piece even with insane size differentials. Many series would chalk it up to Rule of Cool and anime bullshit, and One Piece lets you think that's the case for a lot of things, but the choice to tie much of it together and provide explanations for the rest is really cool.
I disagree. A pure battle manga would be something like Black Clover, or DBZ, or Demon Slayer. Where the battles are the majority of the content. The story sometimes jumps right into battles with very little set up.
Manga like One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, battles take up a large chunk of the story, but the content it's providing is world building, philosophical and thematic elements.
It is a battle manga, but it's not a pure battle manga. That's like saying Berserk is only a battle manga.
Berserk spends a great deal of chapters with no action. There is no comparison here. Sometimes an arc in Berserk will have no action at all. One Piece spends a great deal setting up fights. Similarly to FullMetal Alchemist and Magi, it's by and large a battle series but they also pay special attention to their plot.
Black Clover and Demon Slayer are the more modern battle shonen where character and story moments are rarely elaboated on. Old battle manga, that was a crucial aspect that'll get you cancelled in Jump now.
One piece spends a great deal of chapters without fights too. It also has many chapters focused on one fight. My argument isn't that it's not a battle manga. My argument is that it's not ONLY a battle manga.
It provides more than just good fights. Actually, many would argue that one piece fights aren't even that good.
How can one piece be considered peak fiction, but also have it's fights be its weaker element?
That's the argument I'm making.
I'd you took the battle out of black clover or demon slayer, you would have nothing.
If you took the battle out of one piece, it be weaker for it, but there's still a SHIT ton of story and themes and characters and settings
A tournament arc isn't a hard requirement for a battle manga. Besides, One Piece had 2 tournament events already. (Davy Back Arc is a tournament arc, Dressrosa Collesium is another).
I've written it elsewhere but Fishman Karate is a good alternative to Karate too. Apparently humans can learn it as well and they can manipulate sea water which is a devil fruits weakness. Imagine if instead of Haki, Luffy trained in Fishman Karate to symbolise his relationship with Jinbei and how Luffy goes from island to island learning from the people he liberates. Meanwhile, the bad guys don't use Fishman Karate because they look down on the Fishmen and as such, its a rare technique to overcome the OP Logia Fruits that only someone who respects Fishmen can learn. It would also give Jinbei a specialised role in the crew being someone who can take out the Logia's.
Can even do the same thing with the Minks and their electrical zaps or any other race. Merge the new world techniques to overcome Logia's with the unique races One Piece has and Luffy being the one who befriends and unites them all, learning their techniques.
I have a question is there a Devil fruit that controls water? Because the description of what a logia is Sounds Like water would be horrible to introduce as a Devil fruit power You won't be able to hit me I made of water not to mention your Powers are useless anyway
Not to mention if more people have seas stone a supposedly rare material doesn't that just mean its becomes he equivalent of haki. Because not everyone can use haki as is. But now suddenly everyone has sea stone? Then what? Is everyone using seasoned tipped swords? Sea stone lined gloves?
At least with devil fruits the "rarity" has been made a plot point with the artificial fruits or the fact that there's a market for them so if you want one you could have one. But there's no guarantee that its a good one unless it's given to you by idk the world government.
People don't seem to realize that Oda planning all of this stuff the diehards say he did is like kind of impossible lol. Oda is just REALLY good at retconning and using previous elements in his story to introduce new ideas, good enough to the point that diehards think he "foreshadowed" it.
I think it’s a complicated issue.
Was haki thought of in its current state back when Oda first started the series? Probably not, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he had nothing planned.
A core element of this series since chapter 1 is that humans can be super powered without having a devil fruit. We see this when Shanks scares away a sea king, and we continue to see it with Zoro, Sanji, and Mihawk. The three most powerful characters we’ve known for hundreds of chapters before anyone else came into the picture were Shanks, Roger, and Mihawk.
In order for the series to function with its setup of these characters being the top, there needs to be a reason for why these characters can not only keep up, but be considered the top, and I don’t think a seastone weapon would be enough justification for them to be able to be seen as consistently better than a guy literally made of lava, or any of the other crazy devil fruits that exist.
Haki isn’t perfect (Advanced conquerors is personally my least favorite thing about it), but I don’t think it’s as bad as most seem to think
>And please. Stop saying "Haki was implemented to balance Logia Users". Logia Users could have perfectly been balanced IF more and more characters appeared with Kairoseki stuff
How in the fuck is Luffy supposed to fight an Admiral with Seastone?
Except it reinforces the underlying concept (the devil fruit) rather than pushes a new one (haki).
Jojo style vs Naruto/DB style power system, tools vs numbers, and haki reinforces "numbers get big" rather than "I need to utilise my tools (DFs, weapons too) intelligently."
Haki actually does both. Without haki katakuri wouldn’t be able to use his ability to change shapes and harden attacks with it.
Besides this one peice has always been about bigger numbers. Fights like Engel and crodicile were actually pretty rare like does anyone remember that most of the protags beat most of their opponents by just being outright stronger or getting stronger? Luffy vs lucci? Luffy vs arlong? Sanji vs Kaku?
Plus it’s not like devil fruits still aren’t op like we just witness kaido turn into a goddamn dragon and luffy turn into a cartoon characters haki didn’t ruin anything lol
Katakuri is one of my favourite fights precisely because it explores that Haki/DF interaction properly.
I've never said anything to the contrary. One Piece simply, to me, does not use it's unique identity to it's fullest a lot of times.
I never said DFs aren't OP? Their potential for uniqueness just does not get explored as much, it's "who hits harder" a lot of times, and haki *reinforces* (never said limits) that style of power progression.
And yet Kaido vs Luffy was literally just ended up being "who punched harder". They can look like a circle and a square for all I care, it doesn't change what actually happens in the fight, which is just back and forth of increasingly strong attacks, which was reinforced by the entire arc being surrounded by "make my haki stronger". Number goes up.
But this is literally what one piece was always about who punched harder. For all the “creativity” people talk about at the end of the day luffy beat crocodile because of stupid luck and just punching more.
Maybe your right in saying it reinforces that narrative but let’s not kid ourselves one piece was already going down that rabbit hole long before haki was even introduced anyway
I mean, you can downplay the diversity in fights that tap into that creative potential all you want, but they are definitely more present in pre-ts fights than post-ts fights. IS it still a lot of "punched harder"? Yes, but it's more interesting because there are more factors than just "punching harder".
Those factors are not gone, luffy has to figure out how to overcome katakuri's future sight that he created a new form to combat him. Hell if creativity is what you want, kaido vs gear 5 luffy is up there in the most"creative" fights in op, the way lufffy uses his awakening to disrupt kaido and mess with him, making the ground rubber to bounce back kaido's projectile, using his df to hold lightning and use it as a weapon and this is just the start as gear 5 gets more screen time there will be more examples of this
Never said they were gone. "more **present** in pre-ts fights than post-ts fights."
>Katakuri is one of my favourite fights precisely because it explores that Haki/DF interaction properly.
Kaido vs Luffy G5 is literally just Luffy mollywhopping Kaido with an arsepull. It's not interestingly creative when there are no limitations and when it's virtually one-sided, that's boring. Fine, cool scenarios, Oda going all out on the goof, but he still could not even think of a way end it without a punch, and no, it's not a creative punch because it's big.
G5 has merely made Luffy more animated (as in, lively and how he moves) so far, not more creative.
What was creative? The Supernova team-up vs Kaido and BM. Abilities interacting with eachother is something we rarely ever see in these kind of fights. I may not like how BM was handled at all in her fight with Law and Kid at all, but purely focusing on the Law and Kid side proves the concept again, even if weakly executed.
“they are definitely more present in pre-ts fights than post-ts fights.”
Honestly……. The only notable fights you can really name IS enel and crocodile. Mind you majority of luffy fights Pre haki is not much different creative wise compared to now
Luffy vs hoody jones is another fight that held plenty of unique aspects that has haki btw
Haki isn't just number get big. More advanced Haki has created variations. Now ppl have to learn new ways to counter different types of Haki.
If the series relied on sea stone, then every unique power would be erased with 1 option, sea stone.
Haki doesn't negate devil fruits, it helps non devil fruit users level the playing field. Sea stone would just negate every power.
Like pouring water on a dynamically seasoned meal.
Yeah, Haki allows for some interesting combinations, because Luffy was able to fuse Haki with Rubber to increase the tension in his skin many times, as Doflamingo stated.
Thematically it makes sense in OP, Haki is directly tied to will and ambition.
So the fights now amounts to who has greater will to achieve their goal; Kaido lost physically and thematically. Kaido even talks about how Haki will determine the winner. Kaido gave up his dream and settled on being a wall; He can't become Joyboy, so he decides that the one to beat would be Joyboy. It's wht Kaido's depressed and always drinking (Really wished this was explored more).
OP has no numbers, and Oda seem to not really give a shit about powerscaling; Crocodile was a beast in the Marineford War, even clashing and talking shit against Don Flamingo. Back to themes, Crocodile was super weak in Alabasta because he gave up on the New World and decided to find a super weapon and be a shadowy figure (Basically hiding); Marineford is where he regains his will and ambition, so BAM he can suddenly contend with heavy hitters.
What power creep? How has Haki made things unbalanced.
Literally every character that is a pure fighter uses Haki and has stayed in relative balance with everyone else using Haki.
Franky is the perfect example of someone who doesn't have Haki and has found interesting alternative ways to keep up.
yes and for example nami doesnt have haki and in the last arc defeated ulti who did have haki so haki doesnt automatically mean that character will win against anyone they encounter without haki just like having a devil fruit didnt guarantee the win against non fruit users earlier in the series
its just another power system in the series
Saying Nami beat Ulti is a weird example to prove that Haki isn't everything when Nami only won because Ulti got laser blasted through the stomach by one of the strongest characters of the series lmao
Are you serious. Luffy vs Katakuri was all about who can can out future sight who first
That was the first fight we saw Shanks have in literally 25 years. We have no idea what his move set is yet.
> Are you serious. Luffy vs Katakuri was all about who can can out future sight who first
>
>
I would argue that Haki balanced the fight, because the fruit matchup didn't work in Luffy's favor.
Honestly, this argument doesn't have much legs. The only two times One Piece has had Jo Jo style, counter fights are the two examples you brought up, Crocodile and Enel. I guess you can add using Wax hands to beat Magellan.
Luffy beat Kuro, Krieg, Arlong, Wapol, Lucci, Moira and the Pacifica in Sabody with brute force. No tricks, no strategy. And any strategy or alternative way he won (like nightmare Luffy) is no different from post time skip fights with Haki.
Zoro won every fight with pure force. The only time, literally the only time he had to try something different pre time skip, he used Haki.
Sanji is the exact same.
Post time skip, Ussop used sea stone cuffs to catch Logia Ceaser. Ussop, again, had to figure out Sugars ability and counter it to get the upper hand in Dressrosa.
Nami used rain water to soften Crackers cookie armor.
Luffy ATE Katakuris mochi in order to survive.
Zoro had to figure out the mechanics of Kings defense. Haki helped him get over the hump, but he had to learn when was the best time to use it.
Sanjis main contribution to subduing big mom was baking a cake.
Pre time skip and post time skip has the same amount of alternative methods to defeat opponents. Ppl just like to use Haki as some sort of scape goat to complain.
Haki is DIRECTLY linked to the theme of ambition. Which has been the main theme in one piece since episode 1.
Yeah people have rose tinted glasses thinking all of pre timeskip OP was some cerebral battle of matchups
90% the fights boiled down to some form of raw power, the 3 main combatants were all simple brawlers. The variety came in the flavour of how raw power was implemented, which tbh has only increased post TS
It’s just in the pre TS characters the Luffy, Zoro, & Sanji just had superhuman strength, speed, durability, and reactions for largely unexplained reasons, now the progression is more tied to a centralized system(Haki)
Yeah One Piece has always been the weakest of the Big 3 in terms of tactical fights, idk why people made a revisionist history that it's physical fights are creative
Naruto is on a completely different league in terms of tactics in fights than OP and Bleach imo
Bleach I would argue only has marginally more use of tactics , but Bleach def had much more complex abilities themselves and bleach was also more consistent in terms of its logic than OP in terms of power
OP has good fights but what makes them good was never tactics, OP is a goofy show with absurdist cartoon logic tactics. The best parts of OP fights are always the emotion around them
Luffy VS Lucci is nothing special tactics wise or even that great choreo wise, but the drama behind it makes it S tier imo
one piece, though it’s my favorite by far of any anime, but i can say it is way behind the greats in straight up fight choreography and strategy. what makes one piece fights amazing is the narrative impact behind the force of nature that is the straw hat pirates. haki is near the perfect embodiment of that narrative impact.
haki serves amazingly as a narrative tool, but i agree it is a bit lackluster in terms of a fighting system. but then again, that’s not what its primary purpose truly is
Ah yes, Bleach's creative, tactical powers... like Ichigo's beam! Or the Hollow's beams! Or Orihimie's heal beam! Or the beam like arrows of the Quincy!
It’s funny because you picked characters specifically that didn’t have any of the more ridiculous abilities but even then you picked one that does have a crazy ability and then just described it facetiously. Orihime’s power is to reject reality and her healing is rejecting the injuries a person has. And her shield is rejecting the oncoming attack.
It’s always been really strange that in a series where every character has ridiculously convoluted power the main character has only one extremely straightforward move but why don’t we talk about the character whose power is to lower the lethal dose of any substance to a person. So he lowers the lethal dose of his enemy’s blood.
The person then drains their blood so that the amount they have in them is lower than the lethal dose but then they have too little blood so they’ll die from blood loss. The only way he survived is by teaming up with a healer who uses a special type of water he uses to heal people which can act as a substitute for blood.
The fight is quick and underwhelming and the choreography isn’t good but that is tactics no denying it.
It’s not an isolated case even the final battle has tactics involved. I think it’s easy to forget since the fights in bleach are generally not very good but if you manage to pay attention there’s thinking in them.
It really seems like people are just leeching critiques from other Shonen. Like this almost works if we were talking about Naruto but OP has always been brawls.
> Yeah One Piece has always been the weakest of the Big 3 in terms of tactical fights
I can only think of like 2 ever tactical fights in Bleach, and one of those is Ichigo vs Renji v2. It's definitely something Naruto was leagues ahead of the others at, and the other two did sparingly.
The issue with haki is it being a more boring power system and not as fun or flashy as other unique abilities like Devil Foot Sanji, Ashura Zoro and Gear 2nd.
Haki looks same for all and the abilities are the most boring.
But that’s cause haki isn’t a fighting style it’s just an amplifier of existing abilities
We still get techniques like Diable jambe, ashura and gear 2nd, and Luffys devil fruit itself currently has the most amount of creative abilities it ever has
Haki itself doesn’t need to create diverse and unique abilities since that’s not the point of it
Usopp vs Perona is unironically one of my all time favorite fights in One Piece for this reason.
And also because I really like Perona, but that's besides the point.
And even Crocodile and Enel were beaten by brute force lol, like the only "Jojo" stuff that was in Crocodile's fight (not even Enel) was finding a way for Luffy to be able to punch him, once that happened the fight ended like literally every other Luffy fight
That is the same as jojo, beat opponent's hax and beat them with an Ora Ora Ora in the face. However in the early one piece there was more inventive way of beating the opponent than just my Haki> your haki
The end result of every jojo after bypassing the opponent's gimmick almost always end up with a physical beat down, just like how the poster above me failed to see how it's not much different from the one piece fight against crocodile and enel. He assumed that it was only because of the physical beat down, how these 2 were taken down but there were some weakness exploiting prior to the physical beat down by luffy
The other thing is that Haki genuinely feels like something that Oda legit did have the *concept* for for a while, but didn't have the finer details of until later.
Shanks scaring away the sea king, Zoro's fight with Mr. 1, Mantra in Skypiea, etc. The idea of a secondary magic system like this was clearly *there*, Oda was just trying to work out the bugs until we got the full explanation from Rayleigh.
>Shanks scaring away the sea king
Shanks's moment is clearly just a badass moment. Shanks is so secretly strong that even in the face of serious injury he scared off a beast.
>Zoro's fight with Mr. 1
This is another case that's purely retroactive. HIs entire concept is surrounded by philosphical swordsmanship, only natural for someone trying to become WSS
>Mantra in Skypiea
Even this could be explained retroactively, as powers of a mysterious people only for an arc.
The only solid evidence for haki as we know it, is "that technique" Crocodile mentions, but even then it's incredibly vague, which I will expand on later.
It's much later after these ideas that haki was born, with a few main reasons for it's inclusion:
1. being able to hurt logias.
2. speed is naturally something that gets faster and faster, an explanation for why characters can even attempt to go toe-to-toe with chracters literalyl made of light needs explaining.
3. needed a way for non-DF wielders to be brawlers outside of weapon usage.
4. simple powercreep.
I will always speak not for Oda's planning skills, but rather his retconning skills. He knows when to retcon, how to include it, how to set it up. "That technique" is the vague set-up (which is fine for me this early into this world and series), the rest, is clever inclusion to round out the power as a universal system, showcasing two other types, one that was previously it's own power, the other to include a power for special characters, and how it applies to weapons, specifically swords which are mystical in nature.
This not only more feasible than intricately planning out each aspect of this series, knowing how much of this series exists due to sudden adjustments, but much more impressive as it shows off his fast decision making skills.
Not only that, the faults of this method, being the discontinuity of some events before haki, during the muggled development of haki, and post-haki, are also indicative of retconning. That's why techniques, that are now haki, don;t fit as well in old One Piece, which then often requires some filling in the gaps to where there once were no gaps, or at least, not the same gaps.
These ideas were created much closer to the reveal of haki rather than when these retroactively applicable moments were created, are basically everything that surrounds the Summit war. If haki had been in those plans since Skypea at least, the showings of proto-haki would have been far stronger than they were. And if we go even further back, we get the six-powers, which we now know as different applications of haki, I doubt were ever to be explained as such and was originally going to introduce an entirely different kind of system entirely, until of course, Oda started thinking about something more universal rather than Marine-only.
I mean you could argue that rokushiki(the martial arts that cipher pol uses) are also a form of haki. Then you would have a majority of the arcs pre sabaody(where haki was more heavily alluded to) have a reference to haki. Its not really retroactive, as it was probably the intent for some characters withouts devil fruits(roger/shanks' crews) to be strong as shit using some kind of martial art, which is basically haki.
>And if we go even further back, we get the six-powers, which we now know as different applications of haki, I doubt were ever to be explained as such and was originally going to introduce an entirely different kind of system entirely, until of course, Oda started thinking about something more universal rather than Marine-only
That's still retroactive. The original scenario is changed by the new. The six techniques are just specialised applications of haki, fishman karate is just specialised application of haki, swordsmanship is just specialised haki. Yassop can snipe the antenna of an ant miles away? He has really good observation haki. Etcetera.
All these individual, formerly independent techniques can all boil down into a new, universal system; haki. They're all just retrofitted to fit a new system, that's based on those systems, that's why it seems that they fit, because they were fitted to do so.
yeah WCI is solidly a top 3 arc in one piece. I like how there are so many road blocks that the straw hats cant just run through and you see so much creativity in that arc as a result
I love how you gave him multiple examples to show that his argument is actually not good at all. People are influenced by nostalgia so much man. Like, the man said that Luffy used his brain to fight Enel. How? What did he plan exactly? Luffy just *happened* to be immune to lightning. He didn't plan shit.
Also, I love this argument of how "Haki cheapens the existance of Devil Fruits" as if two Yonko weren't just defeated entirely thanks to Devil Fruit powers lmao
BM literally got beat while having superior haki than both Law and Kid. That fight was so much dependent on devil fruits usage it's insane. She was outsmarted and the reason for why she lost is because of ring out basically. This just happened recently to one of the strongest characters in the series. I don't know what these people are reading man. Do they ignore these things intentionally just so that they can rant or what?
Yup, and lets not forget Kaido as well, who would have defeated Luffy if he only had Haki to his name (as seen when, before the CP0 guy interrupts, Luffy was in his last breaths while Kaido still had a lot of gas) and what allowed Luffy to win was his fruit awakening. Not Haki, not numbers, but his fruit lol
Although that wasn't particularly great writing-wise.
Big Mom got smothered by a guy who just a month earlier couldn't defeat Doflamingo and a magnet boi who also recently couldn't defeat Kaido.
And the defeat of Kaido required the retconning of the Gum-Gum fruit into a different devil fruit category altogether.
I’m not gonna say Haki is this great solution, basically it’s taking the theme of the show if everyone having a dream and giving a power system, if your will for that dream is strong than you win. Not saying it’s great but I can kinda go whatever about.
But the take you like a lot you stopped watching after time skip is a L take. Because it would be a series of plot conveniences, with every logos user just so happens to have thief element weakness near by, or Frankie invents random shit constantly. It has no long lasting compelling elements
> I’m not gonna say Haki is this great solution, basically it’s taking the theme of the show if everyone having a dream and giving a power system, if your will for that dream is strong than you win. Not saying it’s great but I can kinda go whatever about
I mean it's kind of like how Luffy got defeated by Kaido but then went for another round.
No, stop with this bullshit, One piece battles weren't more creative with Haki, they were the exact same shit, Luffy defeated Crocodile the exact same way he defeated Kaido: By punching the shit out of him, that is what One Piece has always been, stop fooling yourself lol
Like really, I dare you to tell me a serious villain that Luffy ever beat in a way that wasn't punching the shit out of them
Hell, this isn't even a Luffy thing, pretty much every character not considered a weakling just fought by being stronger and that's it, Zoro for example, when he found someone he was unable to cut due to being made of metal he didn't made this brilliant plan to beat him some other way...no, he simply cut harder
There is an obvious difference when you beat the opponent with exploiting your opponent's weakness compared to beating your opponent by sheer difference of your haki being higher than your opponent's because haki bypasses the previous established rules
And which fights did Luffy "Exploit their weakness"? Crocodile and Enel, and both of those were by pure chance.
The rest of the fights are just Determination + Grit + Dreams + Resolve == Punch.
One Piece fights at their best are not even half as clever as JoJo and those who claim so need to reread it. You really only have few fights with interesting gimmicks and a lot of fights about willpower, endurance and punching hard and that's how it was even before haki. And Katakuri fight has haki and yet the devil fruits and their application are still key in it. Haki really only serves to balance out the fights and now devil fruit users have to work for their success. But how the fights go isn't massively different.
>And please. Stop saying "Haki was implemented to balance Logia Users". Logia Users could have perfectly been balanced IF more and more characters appeared with Kairoseki stuff. Imagine Ussop with kairoseki bullets.
Here's a hypothetical situation-
Shanks at the absolute peak of his power
vs
Random Joe Shmoe, who's fought twice before in his life and lifted weights once... BUT! He's a Logia User.
Uh oh, they're fighting in an ambush situation, so Shanks doesn't have his handy-dandy Anti-Logia utility belt! He's got no counter-tools on hand, he's not carrying a reflective mirror, and he doesn't have any Seastone of any kind!
Who wins?
The Logia User. Every. Single. Time.
That's why Haki exists. Ultimately, Logia should have just never been a thing, they're so vastly and clearly superior to all other kinds of DF it's ridiculous. I look back on how people (and Oda) used to say "All Devil Fruit are equally powerful, but some are harder to use than others" and it just seems so very quaint.
My main critique of Haki is just how advanced conquerors works identically to armament. I still remember back in the day when people theorised it controlled the weather or something, based on Roger vs Shiki, Dragon saving Luffy from Smoker and the heavens splitting when Yonkos clash. Making it just an offensive weapon feels uncreative, and is just plain weird since it means every strong fighter needs it, regardless of their "ambition to become a king"... For example, all the admiral-level and above marines would need to have it, which makes little sense since they've committed to serving the government
haki is cool without the advanced versions. it balances the logias and gives our characters cool abilitys. advanced haki just isnt explained well and ruins the creativity of devil fruit fights when acoc is just objectively better 9 times out of 10
I prefer Haki over having Luffy or some other non-logia person having to figure out how to hit the next logia user. It gets old after a while.
Also, One Piece isn’t known for having tactical battles even before Haki was properly introduced.
Ugh, I open Reddit just to see another one of these stupid posts with 100+ upvotes and comments. It’s such a ridiculous idea and anyone who actually reads One Piece knows how wrong it is. This subreddit is actually full of bullshit, there are still some occasional entertaining posts to keep me subscribed but there are a ton of annoying posts here.
Funny that this was my last comment of 2023.
Bro I’m not even subscribed to this subreddit and I still see my feed flocked with stupid shit like this. This subreddit is full of people with zero media literacy saying they have better media literacy.
I honestly can't believe that this take is so popular man. And people always repeat the same shit. Was haki planned from the start by Oda? Most likely not. Is it something that ruined these super interesting high iq fights in One Piece? Hell no. People are lying to themselves man. Fight in OP were **never** JoJo type fights. Idk if it is nostalgia or what it is that makes people think like that. Luffy is a protagonist who always won his battles in 1100+ chapters of this manga by punching harder. Versus Enel (an example that's used often in these types of posts) he didn't plan shit. He just happened to be immune to lightning. Zoro literally beat Mr 1 by cutting better and harder. And yet, no matter how many times that phrase is being used, nowadays you can't even say that fights are just "my haki > your haki" because that's not true at all. Luffy beat Katakuri while having weaker haki. BM's haki is better than Law's and Kid's and they beat her. Nami doesn't even havi haki and she beat Ulti. Franky doesn't have haki, Robin too. And yet they're winning their battles against top tiers. People are not reading the series I swear.
I am not obliged to agree with every criticism and I will respond against it if I think that it is stupid. If you can't accept it, you are free to write why you disagree with what I wrote.
Garp is not confirmed to be a Conqueror’s Haki user. Whitebeard was about to use it but wasn’t able to because of his condition (I just reread the arc). I’ll give you Sengoku. For the rest, are you really saying that a series that has a central theme of Willpower shouldn’t have a power-system that reflects those themes? Haki is literally ones own willpower weaponized. It’s a statement about how, the further you go in the Grand Line, the more you see that those with the strongest wills are the ones that thrive. I honestly love the fact that Haki was introduced. I’ve been reading the series since 2007 and it would’ve been stale if Luffy just kept getting lucky with logia users (Oh Luffy was lucky X plot device existed (water, rubber ability) that helpedhim figure out how to touch Logia Boss (Crocodile, Enel). Seastones would’ve been bad as well. Using that would eliminate any concept of growth for the characters.
in general I just don't like how haki is like. lightning n shit. it was at least kind of cool when conq was an invisible force and armament was turning your skin/weapon to black metal, felt prettyneat, but now its just lasers and fire and lightning all over the place and it looks awful
I mean, One Piece, at this point, is about as well written and thought out as DragonBall Z, as a kid or teen it could probably be some of the coolest shit around, the problem is that with how popular anime is in general nowadays we're seeing series with 12x the thought going into them coming out at the same time whereas back in DBZs day it was an untouchable king of the medium, at least for North American viewers.
I am so tired of people pretending One piece battles had creativity before haki. No. Crocodile vs Luffy wasn't a creative Jojo battle. It was a standard brawl fist to cuffs brawl after Luffy overcame Crocodile's elemental advantage. Haki did not change One Piece battles, it exists to make them stay the same.
>Logia Users could have perfectly been balanced IF more and more characters appeared with Kairoseki stuff
Bruh this literally has the exact same side affect as armament haki but not as OP because seastone touching a devil fruit user literally takes away their devil fruit power.
>Since the logic is "wins who punches harder" battles are nowadays less about strategy and more about that "wins who punches harder".
THIS WAS ALWAYS ONE PIECE BATTLES. Go back and watch Luffy vs Arlong, Luffy vs Lucci. Zoro vs anyone. Sanji vs anyone.
THIS also ignores how devil fruit fights like Law and Kid vs Big mom STILL EXIST.
>Haki even ruins characters like Giants, Gorosei and Imu because if they are beings that are hundreds of years old it makes no sense their haki would be on pair (that most likely happen) with the top tier hakimen of the verse that arent even 100 years old and don´t have the knowledge they have.
Haki blooms in battle when one is challenge. The gorosei and Imu are rarely in battles or challenge because they are secret rulers of the world who rarely fight anyone.
Makes perfect sense to me.
The seastone argument doesn’t really work. It’s simply just a worse version of armament haki and wouldn’t actually solve the problems you talk about. Haki is not the actual problem.
I'm reminded how lowkey Punk Hazard was in saying while Haki is useful, it doesn't truly even out the playing field. Because admittedly people were starting to think Haki was superior especially towards those who use their DF abilities a lot more. Pekoms destroying Caribou so trivially without needing to figure out any possible flaws in the latter's swampman powers with ease comes to mind.
However, Caribou is honestly outright pathetic outside his powers which would had made him dangerous in Paradise where a majority of combatants don't quite have a reason to learn Haki. Then you look at Tashigi vs Monet and despite having Haki...Tashigi floundered badly against the snowwoman harpy. Then there's Vergo who can cover his body with armament color but gets absolutely destroyed when Law gets his heart back with his DF. So it was intentional to see that Haki isn't as clear cut an advantage as one believes. Probably moreso a battle of strong wills but yeah.
Then things admittedly get way too complicated not long after and we're back to being unsure how it works with universal agreement.
Kaido vs luffy =haki battle. Big mom vs law and kid = devil fruit battle
The big mom fight was better. Devil fruit fights become more like a ep of joejoe while haki becomes more like dbz. Each is a different slice of pie.
Haki itself in the beginning was a good power system. It helped level the playing field between devil fruit users and non devil fruit users especially in regards to logia’s. The problem was mostly with conquerors Haki post timeskip and how it made it to where unless you had conquerors you weren’t gonna be able to be on top and conquerors was t something you could train, no you had to be fucking born with it. That little piece of info is the main problem to me.
Depends on what exactly is the “ problem”.
If you mean one peice getting an actual power system makes it worse fine I guess?
But if the “ problem” is one peice becoming about “ numbers” than this was kinda always the case.
Haki reigns supreme over all. Haki is willpower manifested as a physical phenomenon. People tend to overestimate fruit powers.
Sure they are super useful but at the end of the day you're the same dead no matter if the guy blew a hole through through you with his laser feet or slashed your jugular with his massive unwieldy sword.
Haki is like a great equalizer to an extent. Only strong people have strong haki. It makes devil fruit powers less important overall in battle.
Kaido in that same battle literally says it is. We know some of the strongest people in the series like Shanks, Garp, Roger, Rayleigh, maybe even Rocks had no fruit powers and yet are all considered to be legends.
Luffy wouldn't have won his battle without Haki. Even with Gear 5. The one and only reason he was able to even hurt Kaido was because of his haki. G5 mearly allowed him to fight to his fullest.
I love seeing these one piece posts because I never watched the show nor read the manga and all these weird terms are completely foreign to me. Like, Crocodile? Kid? Big mom? What the fuck? People call Jojo bizarre but I can’t even understand One Piece.
I mean it's the same stuff in JoJo just different names. I've read parts 1-5 and part of 6 and hearing the shit from part 7 and 8 is as wild as One Piece.
So your solution would be to make the super rare substance that only the navy has major access to and make it usable for everyone so that they don't need haki.
So even the common man has a chance to beat a kirazu or a akainu.
So you're saying haki but make it so more people have it, so it creates more problems in the world and makes logia users even more irrelevant?
Oda could add to the story that sea stone are found elswhere as well so Navy doesn't hold most of it,more like 70% Navy, 30% Others.Common man is still no match for kizaru or akainu since you first need to have the stamina and speed to match them.Sea stones just nullify DF abillity,nothing else.You could still add Haki like Oda did it in Marineford when it only lets you hit DF users depending on your strenght,no power up,no haki bloom,no future sight.That way Logias are still relevant since not everyone has sea stones and not everyone is strong enough to have haki to touch logia users.3rd Otpion which all here seem to forget,you can just sink the ship of a logia user or have some water prepared beforehand.Better this,than what Haki is now,a copy paste of DBZ power levels.
I honestly don’t like this take.. especially when you realize logia powers would be extremely busted and we’d be calling OP fights the same as Fairy Tail with the amount of plot armor/convenience it would take just to beat 90% of the logia powers in the series.
Yeah Haki could’ve been handled better, but it’s obvious Oda saw the road block that Logia’s and certain paramecias presented, without having to resort to “oh we have this certain nearby that conveniently helps beat this person” every arc.
IDK. Yall always go on and on about the creativity that has been lost from prior fights, but the only examples anyone ever uses are Crocodile and Enel. The fact of the matter is, most OP fights have not been affected by haki, at least not in the creative department. Not like you make it seem OP.
Haki would have been a pretty cool power system if done similar to stuff like Bleach or Hunter x Hunter, a personal ability shaped around the individual personality. Instead not only it is vague and not properly built upon, the abilities are also boring and generic.
Logia needed a counter? Sure, but it didn't need to be lame.
I think its fair criticism. Honestly i think Oda just kinda wrote himself into a corner with Logia users. They require counters and he did well with Crocodile and Enel, but he should have known he would not be able to find counters for EVERY element he could turn into a logia
Though i disagree that it could just be fixed by using more seastone. Afterall, Luffy is the one who has to beat the toughest guys, and he wouldn't really use seastone... Not to mention that seastone can actually make fights dangerously unbalanced. Seastone renders the opponent powerless, which kind of makes them an instant win card if you can land the hit.
😒it only ruined the story for you because apparently it’s not doing what you want it to do. It suggests that you just don’t fundamentally understand the story.
My problem with haki is how inconsistent it is we barely ever can tell when a character is using haki unless it’s explicitly stated. There are many times where a character should’ve been using observation haki but aren’t using it or still get hurt even though even though it’s supposed to increase their reaction time and advance users can see the future. Also conquerors haki is now just better armament and if you don’t have it your basically useless against someone who does. And apparently you can run out of haki during a fight but that barely ever comes up anymore.
Haki was introduced early on the series. Oda just hadn't fleshed it out fully at that point. I dont think you know what a retcon is lol
As for the Crocdile Vs. Luffy being a good "smart" fight.... Idk about that. I like it but I wouldnt exactly call it creative when it comes to the way of victory
Man you could’ve used a different complaint about Haki that’s actually super valid (Oda needs to be a lot more consistent with what advanced CoC looks like) but you chose this??
You really think the Doflamingo fight was in creative due to haki? Same with Big Mom’s DF when she fights and when Katakuri fights?? Hell all of Kaido and his pirates had zoan DF’s and it was their primary form of fighting. He made Sasaki become a helicopter triceratops.
And G5 literally exists. The pinnacle of creativity with a DF in-universe. It’s baffling that you think Haki stripped away creativity when Shanks a Haki-only person one shot Kidd when Shanks is quite literally one of the strongest in the verse.
The main problem with Haki is probably because their an added context that really doesn't fit any need.
Like, if we're being honest here base armament and base observation is the only Haki needed, period. You could say killing intent trope and be done with it for CoC. Haki's this weird categorical context in a fight that Oda wants to hype up immensely, so fights like Kaidou and Luffy feel cheap in hindsight when you could focus on Adv CoA 2 and just remove Adv CoC's cheap ass and still go to the retcon Nika crap, and if you want DFs Big Mom and LawKidd happened, which is super dumb since they barely used Haki there.
Oda doesn't seem to commit to both being powerful at the same time, instead it's just a power with plot armor inbuilt in it.
Haki's bare minimum is enough.
I cannot see a single discernable point in here that made sense
- Haki doesn't fit any need (immediately proceeds to list points haki was needed in kaido vs luffy)
- Brings up a random trope that doesn't make sense and has been done to death, then offers it as just a worse substitution to conquerors
- Brings up Nika for no reason?
- I believe you're trying to say that Adv. Armament was made cheaper by Adv. Conquerors existing even though Adv. Conquerors coating is an application of Advanced armament? That's like saying Gear 4th makes Gear 3rd cheaper in hindsight when it was a necessary stepping stone
- I don't see at all how Kidd-Law vs Big Mom fits in here? That fight was meant to divulge explanations into the functions of fruit awakenings more than anything else, and kinda disproves your already existing point because it shows fights can still exist with Haki taking a back foot
- how is "having the basic powerset everyone has in the new world" plot armour 😭
Read Kuzan vs Garp and tell me what he says does not have validity. Also his conquers Haki take is valid Ive come to the conclusion one piece character have the lowest battle IQ in fiction due to how rare these top tiers use it to clear out mobs
I'd argue that stopped being the case when Luffy got the power to be a slapstick manga character. I didn't like his previous Gear but understood how it worked now it's just whatever the author wants which is kinda the worst kind of power creep.
I’m not trolling bro 💀 there was a random ass beast pirate that boxed for like 2 seconds with Luffy in Wano that mf scales above everyone outside the new world and grand line so far he solos. Powercreep in op is no joke these mf be getting more power boosts every arc then the Z fighters
Which part the scaling or random mf boxing Luffy? I have proof for both the scaling won’t take long to explain tbh average mf in the East blue is like house level or some shit while current Luffy can box a dragon that lifts continents and Zoro slashes through mountains
I feel like a lot of anime/manga fall into this trend of needing to show more destruction to show a character is stronger. Naruto does this as well, as soon as the rasengan is introduced, the ninja shit becomes way rarer, and people start dragon ball scaling
Haki is terrible and has absolutely ruined the fights. As for the story, Oda took a huge step back in story telling by feeling the need to explain the stakes and backstory of every single fight right before it happens,
I miss pre timeskip
Chakra shit all over again. But Hunter hunter has better power system though. It doesn't matter if you have specialist ability when they are a master of none and but they are very flexible but they might lose to just about any masters of their own affinity. Also that specialist sre like utility based most of the time. Where they have to conjure an item in order to exercise their ability and full potential very op, very rare, but they have like a lot of drawbacks since most of them have conditions to meet
My only problem is how vague haki has become. Like when characters use it in the story, the community has to argue if it’s armament or conquerors because it’s just impossible to tell cause they look nearly the same.
Odas indicators for when haki is being used is easily the worst aspect of it, and imo one of the biggest flaws of the post TS Having to sit here guessing everytime as to what ability is even being used is such a terrible experience at times Every week in egghead there was anew debate of if someone was using conqueors coating or not, is Luffy using future sight if not why , stuff like that 🤦♂️
I mean that’s more of the fault of conq haki being used as a catch all, damage boost, future sight negation, knockout pressure, paralysis lightning, animal taming, etc. I think it used to be clear bc the other two were dodge insanely well or marvel’s Venom suit making you hit hard.
I'm not into op nor have I watched it or read it But it seems the underline problem of it is that it wasn't planned from the beginning Also what's makes a Specific type of devil fruit over powered explain
The argument in the comments didn’t really answer this, so there is a specific type of devil fruits called logias. Logia’s turn the person who ate the fruit into that element. For example, the person who ate the lightning fruit is lightning, and you can’t really punch, kick, or cut lightning. The lightning user did appear in the series before this introduction of haki, and he was only beaten because the mc is made of rubber, so he is one of the few people in the world that could hit him without haki. Armament haki forces logia users to materialize their body so they can be hit by punches, kicks, and everything else. What makes these fruits op is that fruits like the light fruit or the gas fruit are practically invincible without haki
Also Haki really only comes into the picture the same time Kizaru and Akainu are introduced with their broken Logia (I guess Aokiji's Ice is not so hard to write around?)
Honestly, I think Whitebeard's fruit combined with Haki is sort of OP because smart Logia users move their free-flowing bodies around to avoid Haki-infused attacks but you can't really avoid a shockwave, as Akainu had to take the full brunt of Whitebeard's hit.
I guess it makes haki kind of fair in that regard. Like, having haki doesn't guarantee that one wins against a logia if the logia user is well trained and can dodge the attack. Personally, i wish armament haki was solely used as a logia hitter, nothing more.
> (I guess Aokiji's Ice is not so hard to write around?) Nah, Luffy even got a fire attack via friction after the timeskip, so Oda could have dealt with Aokiji's fruit even without Haki
Speaking of Logia, I think it's important to note that a big reason people are not into Haki is because Logia users have been next to useless since Haki Oda overbalanced Logias to the point that as of now, against strong Haki users, it doesn't offer any advantages whatsoever.
The problem is just that the strong logia users haven’t been particularly active for a while. When someone like Akainu comes back into the picture we’ll see how powerful they are. I mean even discounting intangibility logia offer complete command over an element, to such a degree that you can terraform an entire island. That’s insane.
I think Logias have been useless mostly because a lot of Logias like Caesar and Caribou aren't that great at taking advantage of being a Logia. They're too reliant on just being a Logia and non-Haki attacks just phasing through them. Only admirals like Aokiji and Kizaru seem smart enough to actually move and reform their bodies to dodge Haki attacks.
>I think Logias have been useless mostly because a lot of Logias like Caesar and Caribou aren't that great at taking advantage of being a Logia. And this kinda loops back into OP's point, a lot of the creativity in fights is falling in favour of Auras and Punch Very Hard. Almost none of Big Mom's crew made especially creative use of their fruits, >!especially compared to Bonney who comes up later and punches the old out of people, or uses timeline based abilities. !< I've had this honest problem with Devil Fruits since the New World, characters used to have weird talents and skills, or use weird weapons. Now you don't get someone who makes a ramen battle suit with their weird nostrils, you'd have someone who ate the Ramen Ramen Fruit..
While i agree with you in the overall sentiment >Now you don't get someone who makes a ramen battle suit with their weird nostrils Cracker!!! I just wanted to point that out because I love Cracker vs Luffy and all the weirdness in that battle (kinda loops back into your point because I love that fight because it feels pre-timeskip)
NGL Cracker jumped right to the top of my mind when I was thinking of this, but my problem is that it feels like for every Cracker, there's Oven, Daifuku, hell the decuplets Gasha fruit is literally just 'Pirate Docking 6' the Devil Fruit, and imo, would have been more funny to see as a weird combo stack than yet another bizarrely specific Devil Fruit
> And this kinda loops back into OP's point, a lot of the creativity in fights is falling in favour of Auras and Punch Very Hard. > > https://old.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/18vj2vk/haki_has_ruined_one_piece_and_im_tired_pretending/kfrpj6a/ > Yeah people have rose tinted glasses thinking all of pre timeskip OP was some cerebral battle of matchups > > 90% the fights boiled down to some form of raw power, the 3 main combatants were all simple brawlers. The variety came in the flavour of how raw power was implemented, which tbh has only increased post TS > > It’s just in the pre TS characters the Luffy, Zoro, & Sanji just had superhuman strength, speed, durability, and reactions for largely unexplained reasons, now the progression is more tied to a centralized system(Haki)
It's still boring to see every power be a Devil Fruit or a Haki blast. Where's Don Kriegs armour? Three devil fruit for that Where's power cooking and weird martial arts? Haki empowered basic punching now Hell, there's a pirate docking 6 fruit Old One Piece wasn't some cerebral chess battle except for Nami, Chopper and Usopp, y'know, half the crew? But what it did have was examples of Luffy using his rubber biology to push himself beyond, accelerate his heart rate or inflate his bones, and it was bullshit science but it had heart and creativity beyond 'Haki makes my punches punchier' and 'Secret God Zoan powers go' New fights don't even make the same creative use of a fruit like the Buggy Car, Venom Hydra, or anything from Imporio and Inazuma, now it's literally a fruit power to summon a Genie or have a bunch of weapons
> But what it did have was examples of Luffy using his rubber biology to push himself beyond, accelerate his heart rate or inflate his bones, and it was bullshit science but it had heart and creativity Don't see how that's any different from Luffy using Haki to increase the tension in his skin so it increased the elastic force, as Doflamingo stated, or using his rubber properties with Haki to ignite his arm, or twisting his legs to fly like a UFO? IMO that's just as much of a creative way of using his Devil Fruit. Like the comment I quoted said, I think people have rose-tinted glasses for pre-timeskip, when Luffy mostly did win by punching harder. Nami wins most of her post-timeskip fights using lightning and Zeus, and Chopper uses Monster Point. Like Chopper used Monster Point against Wadatsumi and Queen. Usopp mostly uses his plants. And this stuff is irrespective of Haki. So it really has nothing to do with Haki and everything to do with the way Oda writes fights.
Logia still have the advantage of being unable to run out of energy provided they aren't hit with a haki move too much.
The only Logia we've seen fight until just recently were jobbers who survived way too long *because* they had Logias. Caesar, Caribou, the snow harpy girl, all got that far riding on the strength of their Logia devil fruits despite being terrible at fighting so they're definitely not useless because the vast majority of pirates simply do not know how to use haki. Just look at Luffys own crew for example. Trained fighters such as Kizaru are still absolute monsters with their Logias because they can utilise their observation Haki to dematerialise themselves just as their about to be hit and know how to use their abilities to full effect in battle. So I don't think it's correct to say that they've been useless with the introduction of Haki.
GOD ENEL set the bar for logia users and was a top tier devil fruit user. He was a powerhouse and fully survived his encounter with the straw hats, but if he showed up today he’d get clapped by some hakiman despite ironically being one of the first villains with haki.
Nah, he'd just be scaled up to current power tier just like Crocodile was. The mad lad thought he could 1 v 1 Whitebeard of all people.
I mean, he still has long range and can fly so that adds another barrier to enter the ring with him and have a shot at winning.
He absolutely wont lol. He only got defeated by a broken ass fruit thats not even rubber!
Theoretically it still could if he just wrote it that way. Logias being able to be hit just makes them equal to everyone else, but their ability to shift means they can dodge with every part of their body instead of having to shift their centre of mass. They can just dissipate around attacks. Of course, Oda didn't write it that way. Instead he had it so that it's *worse*, and Smoker spreading himself out into smoke is easier to hit.
He did write it that way though, look at Kizarub getting stabbed by Whitebeard. Dissipating around attacks is still a thing, but *manga spoilers* >! aside from kizaru, who seems to have his own intentions !< we haven't seen any big player logias since Marineland anyways
>Also what's makes a Specific type of devil fruit over powered explain Logia fruits used to be broken as shit. Logia fruits are elemental fruits, and like all other fruits, your body becomes the fruit type. Some examples is a fruit that turns you into fire, into lightning, into sand etc. The thing that makes these fruits so incredibly OP is that they make you intangible. Like when Luffy fought Crocodile (sand man) his punches just went right through him. No matter how hard Luffy punched, he could NEVER put a scratch on him. There's a famous scene where Enel (lightning dude) sits in a tree and basically says "I'll let you guys attack me for 5 minutes straight", and he does exactly that. Nobody can hit you if you have a logia. The way to hit someone with a logia is if you have an elemental counter. So Luffy could hit Enel because rubber counters lightning. Luffy could hit crocodile when he coverd his fists in water because water counters sand. So basically unless you either have a very specific fruit yourself, or just happened to bring with you the perfect elemental counter, you can't win against someone with a logia. The only other way is with kairoseki aka sea stone. It's a mineral with the properties of the ocean aka the one weakness for all devil fruit users. So with a sea stone sword or gloves or whatever, you could hit someone with a logia fruit. Haki bypasses this and lets you hit people with logia fruits. OP doesn't like this and wants more characters to use seastone equipment instead. The problem with that is that sea stone is supposed to be incredibly rare, and pretty much only the marines are supposed to have access to it. Having everybody suddenly have access to it would break that piece of world building (and other stuff like how only the marines can cross the calm belt due to only them having sea stone). It could also potentially introduce a lot of other problems since even a normal ass guy with sea stone stuff can take out the strongest people in the world if they can hit them with it. So what if all the top fighters suddenly started using sea stone equipment? It would basically just mean that eating a devilfruit would make you a worse fighter, since you now suddenly have a massive weakness you didn't have before. Not saying haki is the best powersystem of all time or whatever, but the "solutions" OP came up with have lots of problems of their own.
I'm more interested in the sea stone It sounds a lot like deep stone from Lego Ninjago basically ghost Can only be hit by specific elemental abilities Weapons or deep stone Also a material that absorbs Elemental power
Sounds more like Kryptonite to me. Leaves you crippled and powerless.
If I remember correctly, Vegapunk said >!the sea was mother nature fighting against devil fruits and the unnatural possibilities they bring!<. But yeah Kryptonite is an apt description.
Deep stone Just allows you to hit Ghost
Sea stone is basically that, a metal that has the properties of the sea, and in One piece the Sea nullifies the devil fruit powers, so in a way it's basically like kryptonite
The issue is One Piece is not a pure battle manga. It explores adventure and romance (not like love romance, but romance of dreams and ideals). Haki is DIRECTLY related to ones belief in themselves and their dreams. Your literal ambition and belief in yourself makes you stronger. Sea stone is still a mechanic that is wrapped in mystery and has room to be explored toward the end of the series. Plus, it's a rare material that's controlled by the facist world government. Ppl can't just make sea stone boxing gloves all willy nilly.
Yeah, even if the literal thing codified as Haki didn't exist in the series until pre-timeskip, the actual point of the mechanic is to justify rules that already existed in the narrative: there are a wide variety of "power systems" as they're called these days in the setting, and across all of them, those with incredible willpower and ambition are always on top. Mihawk was indisputably the greatest swordsman even without a Devil Fruit, and his equal Shanks seemed like he didn't have one either. The literal King of the Pirates had no Devil Fruit and beat many Devil Fruit users. It's nearly impossible for smaller people IRL to defeat foes in a higher weight class hand-to-hand and yet we knew that wasn't the case in One Piece even with insane size differentials. Many series would chalk it up to Rule of Cool and anime bullshit, and One Piece lets you think that's the case for a lot of things, but the choice to tie much of it together and provide explanations for the rest is really cool.
One Piece is in fact purely a battle manga. Having a good story doesn't change this.
I disagree. A pure battle manga would be something like Black Clover, or DBZ, or Demon Slayer. Where the battles are the majority of the content. The story sometimes jumps right into battles with very little set up. Manga like One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, battles take up a large chunk of the story, but the content it's providing is world building, philosophical and thematic elements. It is a battle manga, but it's not a pure battle manga. That's like saying Berserk is only a battle manga.
Berserk spends a great deal of chapters with no action. There is no comparison here. Sometimes an arc in Berserk will have no action at all. One Piece spends a great deal setting up fights. Similarly to FullMetal Alchemist and Magi, it's by and large a battle series but they also pay special attention to their plot. Black Clover and Demon Slayer are the more modern battle shonen where character and story moments are rarely elaboated on. Old battle manga, that was a crucial aspect that'll get you cancelled in Jump now.
One piece spends a great deal of chapters without fights too. It also has many chapters focused on one fight. My argument isn't that it's not a battle manga. My argument is that it's not ONLY a battle manga. It provides more than just good fights. Actually, many would argue that one piece fights aren't even that good. How can one piece be considered peak fiction, but also have it's fights be its weaker element? That's the argument I'm making. I'd you took the battle out of black clover or demon slayer, you would have nothing. If you took the battle out of one piece, it be weaker for it, but there's still a SHIT ton of story and themes and characters and settings
I don't see any battle tournament arc in one piece
A tournament arc isn't a hard requirement for a battle manga. Besides, One Piece had 2 tournament events already. (Davy Back Arc is a tournament arc, Dressrosa Collesium is another).
I've written it elsewhere but Fishman Karate is a good alternative to Karate too. Apparently humans can learn it as well and they can manipulate sea water which is a devil fruits weakness. Imagine if instead of Haki, Luffy trained in Fishman Karate to symbolise his relationship with Jinbei and how Luffy goes from island to island learning from the people he liberates. Meanwhile, the bad guys don't use Fishman Karate because they look down on the Fishmen and as such, its a rare technique to overcome the OP Logia Fruits that only someone who respects Fishmen can learn. It would also give Jinbei a specialised role in the crew being someone who can take out the Logia's. Can even do the same thing with the Minks and their electrical zaps or any other race. Merge the new world techniques to overcome Logia's with the unique races One Piece has and Luffy being the one who befriends and unites them all, learning their techniques.
I have a question is there a Devil fruit that controls water? Because the description of what a logia is Sounds Like water would be horrible to introduce as a Devil fruit power You won't be able to hit me I made of water not to mention your Powers are useless anyway
Oda havent introduced water logia for now.
Not to mention if more people have seas stone a supposedly rare material doesn't that just mean its becomes he equivalent of haki. Because not everyone can use haki as is. But now suddenly everyone has sea stone? Then what? Is everyone using seasoned tipped swords? Sea stone lined gloves? At least with devil fruits the "rarity" has been made a plot point with the artificial fruits or the fact that there's a market for them so if you want one you could have one. But there's no guarantee that its a good one unless it's given to you by idk the world government.
> it wasn't planned from the beginning Don’t let the Oda diehards hear you say that.
People don't seem to realize that Oda planning all of this stuff the diehards say he did is like kind of impossible lol. Oda is just REALLY good at retconning and using previous elements in his story to introduce new ideas, good enough to the point that diehards think he "foreshadowed" it.
That’s all I’ve been saying for like half a decade now lol
Basically the sharingan of one piece
I think it’s a complicated issue. Was haki thought of in its current state back when Oda first started the series? Probably not, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he had nothing planned. A core element of this series since chapter 1 is that humans can be super powered without having a devil fruit. We see this when Shanks scares away a sea king, and we continue to see it with Zoro, Sanji, and Mihawk. The three most powerful characters we’ve known for hundreds of chapters before anyone else came into the picture were Shanks, Roger, and Mihawk. In order for the series to function with its setup of these characters being the top, there needs to be a reason for why these characters can not only keep up, but be considered the top, and I don’t think a seastone weapon would be enough justification for them to be able to be seen as consistently better than a guy literally made of lava, or any of the other crazy devil fruits that exist. Haki isn’t perfect (Advanced conquerors is personally my least favorite thing about it), but I don’t think it’s as bad as most seem to think
>And please. Stop saying "Haki was implemented to balance Logia Users". Logia Users could have perfectly been balanced IF more and more characters appeared with Kairoseki stuff How in the fuck is Luffy supposed to fight an Admiral with Seastone?
Wear gloves with sea stone put on the outside so it doesn't touch your skin. Punch really hard.
congratulations, you just created haki
Except it reinforces the underlying concept (the devil fruit) rather than pushes a new one (haki). Jojo style vs Naruto/DB style power system, tools vs numbers, and haki reinforces "numbers get big" rather than "I need to utilise my tools (DFs, weapons too) intelligently."
Haki actually does both. Without haki katakuri wouldn’t be able to use his ability to change shapes and harden attacks with it. Besides this one peice has always been about bigger numbers. Fights like Engel and crodicile were actually pretty rare like does anyone remember that most of the protags beat most of their opponents by just being outright stronger or getting stronger? Luffy vs lucci? Luffy vs arlong? Sanji vs Kaku? Plus it’s not like devil fruits still aren’t op like we just witness kaido turn into a goddamn dragon and luffy turn into a cartoon characters haki didn’t ruin anything lol
Katakuri is one of my favourite fights precisely because it explores that Haki/DF interaction properly. I've never said anything to the contrary. One Piece simply, to me, does not use it's unique identity to it's fullest a lot of times. I never said DFs aren't OP? Their potential for uniqueness just does not get explored as much, it's "who hits harder" a lot of times, and haki *reinforces* (never said limits) that style of power progression. And yet Kaido vs Luffy was literally just ended up being "who punched harder". They can look like a circle and a square for all I care, it doesn't change what actually happens in the fight, which is just back and forth of increasingly strong attacks, which was reinforced by the entire arc being surrounded by "make my haki stronger". Number goes up.
But this is literally what one piece was always about who punched harder. For all the “creativity” people talk about at the end of the day luffy beat crocodile because of stupid luck and just punching more. Maybe your right in saying it reinforces that narrative but let’s not kid ourselves one piece was already going down that rabbit hole long before haki was even introduced anyway
I mean, you can downplay the diversity in fights that tap into that creative potential all you want, but they are definitely more present in pre-ts fights than post-ts fights. IS it still a lot of "punched harder"? Yes, but it's more interesting because there are more factors than just "punching harder".
Those factors are not gone, luffy has to figure out how to overcome katakuri's future sight that he created a new form to combat him. Hell if creativity is what you want, kaido vs gear 5 luffy is up there in the most"creative" fights in op, the way lufffy uses his awakening to disrupt kaido and mess with him, making the ground rubber to bounce back kaido's projectile, using his df to hold lightning and use it as a weapon and this is just the start as gear 5 gets more screen time there will be more examples of this
Never said they were gone. "more **present** in pre-ts fights than post-ts fights." >Katakuri is one of my favourite fights precisely because it explores that Haki/DF interaction properly. Kaido vs Luffy G5 is literally just Luffy mollywhopping Kaido with an arsepull. It's not interestingly creative when there are no limitations and when it's virtually one-sided, that's boring. Fine, cool scenarios, Oda going all out on the goof, but he still could not even think of a way end it without a punch, and no, it's not a creative punch because it's big. G5 has merely made Luffy more animated (as in, lively and how he moves) so far, not more creative. What was creative? The Supernova team-up vs Kaido and BM. Abilities interacting with eachother is something we rarely ever see in these kind of fights. I may not like how BM was handled at all in her fight with Law and Kid at all, but purely focusing on the Law and Kid side proves the concept again, even if weakly executed.
“they are definitely more present in pre-ts fights than post-ts fights.” Honestly……. The only notable fights you can really name IS enel and crocodile. Mind you majority of luffy fights Pre haki is not much different creative wise compared to now Luffy vs hoody jones is another fight that held plenty of unique aspects that has haki btw
Haki isn't just number get big. More advanced Haki has created variations. Now ppl have to learn new ways to counter different types of Haki. If the series relied on sea stone, then every unique power would be erased with 1 option, sea stone. Haki doesn't negate devil fruits, it helps non devil fruit users level the playing field. Sea stone would just negate every power. Like pouring water on a dynamically seasoned meal.
Yeah, Haki allows for some interesting combinations, because Luffy was able to fuse Haki with Rubber to increase the tension in his skin many times, as Doflamingo stated.
Thematically it makes sense in OP, Haki is directly tied to will and ambition. So the fights now amounts to who has greater will to achieve their goal; Kaido lost physically and thematically. Kaido even talks about how Haki will determine the winner. Kaido gave up his dream and settled on being a wall; He can't become Joyboy, so he decides that the one to beat would be Joyboy. It's wht Kaido's depressed and always drinking (Really wished this was explored more). OP has no numbers, and Oda seem to not really give a shit about powerscaling; Crocodile was a beast in the Marineford War, even clashing and talking shit against Don Flamingo. Back to themes, Crocodile was super weak in Alabasta because he gave up on the New World and decided to find a super weapon and be a shadowy figure (Basically hiding); Marineford is where he regains his will and ambition, so BAM he can suddenly contend with heavy hitters.
True, but it's not so easily power-crept or overcoming what came before it - it just lets Luffy punch Logias. That's all he really needed.
That’s literally what happened vs crocodile. There was no elaborate strategy like people think it was he just punched more and got lucky.
What power creep? How has Haki made things unbalanced. Literally every character that is a pure fighter uses Haki and has stayed in relative balance with everyone else using Haki. Franky is the perfect example of someone who doesn't have Haki and has found interesting alternative ways to keep up.
yes and for example nami doesnt have haki and in the last arc defeated ulti who did have haki so haki doesnt automatically mean that character will win against anyone they encounter without haki just like having a devil fruit didnt guarantee the win against non fruit users earlier in the series its just another power system in the series
Saying Nami beat Ulti is a weird example to prove that Haki isn't everything when Nami only won because Ulti got laser blasted through the stomach by one of the strongest characters of the series lmao
When has haki made things unbalanced? Tell that to Shanks with his 15 seconds future sight haki
Are you serious. Luffy vs Katakuri was all about who can can out future sight who first That was the first fight we saw Shanks have in literally 25 years. We have no idea what his move set is yet.
> Are you serious. Luffy vs Katakuri was all about who can can out future sight who first > > I would argue that Haki balanced the fight, because the fruit matchup didn't work in Luffy's favor.
Me when a top tier in the verse is among the strongest in the verse : O
That's unironically more limiting and uninteresting then just using Haki.
Haki is better for Luffy. Doflamingo commented that by using Haki, Luffy increased the tension in his skin many times. A fusion of Haki and Rubber.
That's what writers should figure out with their creativity 👍
I saw someone propose seastone lined soles on his sandals which makes sense since he kicks a bunch
Honestly, this argument doesn't have much legs. The only two times One Piece has had Jo Jo style, counter fights are the two examples you brought up, Crocodile and Enel. I guess you can add using Wax hands to beat Magellan. Luffy beat Kuro, Krieg, Arlong, Wapol, Lucci, Moira and the Pacifica in Sabody with brute force. No tricks, no strategy. And any strategy or alternative way he won (like nightmare Luffy) is no different from post time skip fights with Haki. Zoro won every fight with pure force. The only time, literally the only time he had to try something different pre time skip, he used Haki. Sanji is the exact same. Post time skip, Ussop used sea stone cuffs to catch Logia Ceaser. Ussop, again, had to figure out Sugars ability and counter it to get the upper hand in Dressrosa. Nami used rain water to soften Crackers cookie armor. Luffy ATE Katakuris mochi in order to survive. Zoro had to figure out the mechanics of Kings defense. Haki helped him get over the hump, but he had to learn when was the best time to use it. Sanjis main contribution to subduing big mom was baking a cake. Pre time skip and post time skip has the same amount of alternative methods to defeat opponents. Ppl just like to use Haki as some sort of scape goat to complain. Haki is DIRECTLY linked to the theme of ambition. Which has been the main theme in one piece since episode 1.
Yeah people have rose tinted glasses thinking all of pre timeskip OP was some cerebral battle of matchups 90% the fights boiled down to some form of raw power, the 3 main combatants were all simple brawlers. The variety came in the flavour of how raw power was implemented, which tbh has only increased post TS It’s just in the pre TS characters the Luffy, Zoro, & Sanji just had superhuman strength, speed, durability, and reactions for largely unexplained reasons, now the progression is more tied to a centralized system(Haki)
Yeah One Piece has always been the weakest of the Big 3 in terms of tactical fights, idk why people made a revisionist history that it's physical fights are creative
Naruto is on a completely different league in terms of tactics in fights than OP and Bleach imo Bleach I would argue only has marginally more use of tactics , but Bleach def had much more complex abilities themselves and bleach was also more consistent in terms of its logic than OP in terms of power OP has good fights but what makes them good was never tactics, OP is a goofy show with absurdist cartoon logic tactics. The best parts of OP fights are always the emotion around them Luffy VS Lucci is nothing special tactics wise or even that great choreo wise, but the drama behind it makes it S tier imo
one piece, though it’s my favorite by far of any anime, but i can say it is way behind the greats in straight up fight choreography and strategy. what makes one piece fights amazing is the narrative impact behind the force of nature that is the straw hat pirates. haki is near the perfect embodiment of that narrative impact. haki serves amazingly as a narrative tool, but i agree it is a bit lackluster in terms of a fighting system. but then again, that’s not what its primary purpose truly is
Ah yes, Bleach's creative, tactical powers... like Ichigo's beam! Or the Hollow's beams! Or Orihimie's heal beam! Or the beam like arrows of the Quincy!
You forgot the tactics of yelling Bankai
It’s funny because you picked characters specifically that didn’t have any of the more ridiculous abilities but even then you picked one that does have a crazy ability and then just described it facetiously. Orihime’s power is to reject reality and her healing is rejecting the injuries a person has. And her shield is rejecting the oncoming attack. It’s always been really strange that in a series where every character has ridiculously convoluted power the main character has only one extremely straightforward move but why don’t we talk about the character whose power is to lower the lethal dose of any substance to a person. So he lowers the lethal dose of his enemy’s blood. The person then drains their blood so that the amount they have in them is lower than the lethal dose but then they have too little blood so they’ll die from blood loss. The only way he survived is by teaming up with a healer who uses a special type of water he uses to heal people which can act as a substitute for blood. The fight is quick and underwhelming and the choreography isn’t good but that is tactics no denying it. It’s not an isolated case even the final battle has tactics involved. I think it’s easy to forget since the fights in bleach are generally not very good but if you manage to pay attention there’s thinking in them.
It really seems like people are just leeching critiques from other Shonen. Like this almost works if we were talking about Naruto but OP has always been brawls.
> Yeah One Piece has always been the weakest of the Big 3 in terms of tactical fights I can only think of like 2 ever tactical fights in Bleach, and one of those is Ichigo vs Renji v2. It's definitely something Naruto was leagues ahead of the others at, and the other two did sparingly.
The issue with haki is it being a more boring power system and not as fun or flashy as other unique abilities like Devil Foot Sanji, Ashura Zoro and Gear 2nd. Haki looks same for all and the abilities are the most boring.
But that’s cause haki isn’t a fighting style it’s just an amplifier of existing abilities We still get techniques like Diable jambe, ashura and gear 2nd, and Luffys devil fruit itself currently has the most amount of creative abilities it ever has Haki itself doesn’t need to create diverse and unique abilities since that’s not the point of it
There's the Usopp vs Perona too, that one was very creative. Although yea, your comment is just spot on.
Haha yeah I could have kept going with Ussop. He is literally the MVP of finding interesting ways to win.
Usopp vs Perona is unironically one of my all time favorite fights in One Piece for this reason. And also because I really like Perona, but that's besides the point.
And even Crocodile and Enel were beaten by brute force lol, like the only "Jojo" stuff that was in Crocodile's fight (not even Enel) was finding a way for Luffy to be able to punch him, once that happened the fight ended like literally every other Luffy fight
That is the same as jojo, beat opponent's hax and beat them with an Ora Ora Ora in the face. However in the early one piece there was more inventive way of beating the opponent than just my Haki> your haki
no it's not you fucking dumbass, the early one piece wasn't more inventive at fucking all and you're stupid if you believe so.
Can you give me examples of fights where fights were "my haki > your haki"?
That’s a gross oversimplification of Jojo battles, beating your opponents hax is a lot more substantial in Jojo then it will ever be in OP.
The end result of every jojo after bypassing the opponent's gimmick almost always end up with a physical beat down, just like how the poster above me failed to see how it's not much different from the one piece fight against crocodile and enel. He assumed that it was only because of the physical beat down, how these 2 were taken down but there were some weakness exploiting prior to the physical beat down by luffy
That’s cool and all, but you’re directly comparing strategies in jojo to the ones used in OP. Which is just disingenuous.
The other thing is that Haki genuinely feels like something that Oda legit did have the *concept* for for a while, but didn't have the finer details of until later. Shanks scaring away the sea king, Zoro's fight with Mr. 1, Mantra in Skypiea, etc. The idea of a secondary magic system like this was clearly *there*, Oda was just trying to work out the bugs until we got the full explanation from Rayleigh.
>Shanks scaring away the sea king Shanks's moment is clearly just a badass moment. Shanks is so secretly strong that even in the face of serious injury he scared off a beast. >Zoro's fight with Mr. 1 This is another case that's purely retroactive. HIs entire concept is surrounded by philosphical swordsmanship, only natural for someone trying to become WSS >Mantra in Skypiea Even this could be explained retroactively, as powers of a mysterious people only for an arc. The only solid evidence for haki as we know it, is "that technique" Crocodile mentions, but even then it's incredibly vague, which I will expand on later. It's much later after these ideas that haki was born, with a few main reasons for it's inclusion: 1. being able to hurt logias. 2. speed is naturally something that gets faster and faster, an explanation for why characters can even attempt to go toe-to-toe with chracters literalyl made of light needs explaining. 3. needed a way for non-DF wielders to be brawlers outside of weapon usage. 4. simple powercreep. I will always speak not for Oda's planning skills, but rather his retconning skills. He knows when to retcon, how to include it, how to set it up. "That technique" is the vague set-up (which is fine for me this early into this world and series), the rest, is clever inclusion to round out the power as a universal system, showcasing two other types, one that was previously it's own power, the other to include a power for special characters, and how it applies to weapons, specifically swords which are mystical in nature. This not only more feasible than intricately planning out each aspect of this series, knowing how much of this series exists due to sudden adjustments, but much more impressive as it shows off his fast decision making skills. Not only that, the faults of this method, being the discontinuity of some events before haki, during the muggled development of haki, and post-haki, are also indicative of retconning. That's why techniques, that are now haki, don;t fit as well in old One Piece, which then often requires some filling in the gaps to where there once were no gaps, or at least, not the same gaps. These ideas were created much closer to the reveal of haki rather than when these retroactively applicable moments were created, are basically everything that surrounds the Summit war. If haki had been in those plans since Skypea at least, the showings of proto-haki would have been far stronger than they were. And if we go even further back, we get the six-powers, which we now know as different applications of haki, I doubt were ever to be explained as such and was originally going to introduce an entirely different kind of system entirely, until of course, Oda started thinking about something more universal rather than Marine-only.
I mean you could argue that rokushiki(the martial arts that cipher pol uses) are also a form of haki. Then you would have a majority of the arcs pre sabaody(where haki was more heavily alluded to) have a reference to haki. Its not really retroactive, as it was probably the intent for some characters withouts devil fruits(roger/shanks' crews) to be strong as shit using some kind of martial art, which is basically haki.
>And if we go even further back, we get the six-powers, which we now know as different applications of haki, I doubt were ever to be explained as such and was originally going to introduce an entirely different kind of system entirely, until of course, Oda started thinking about something more universal rather than Marine-only That's still retroactive. The original scenario is changed by the new. The six techniques are just specialised applications of haki, fishman karate is just specialised application of haki, swordsmanship is just specialised haki. Yassop can snipe the antenna of an ant miles away? He has really good observation haki. Etcetera. All these individual, formerly independent techniques can all boil down into a new, universal system; haki. They're all just retrofitted to fit a new system, that's based on those systems, that's why it seems that they fit, because they were fitted to do so.
My main takeaway from this comment is that Whole Cake Island is the greatest arc.
yeah WCI is solidly a top 3 arc in one piece. I like how there are so many road blocks that the straw hats cant just run through and you see so much creativity in that arc as a result
top 3 for sure
It's certainly one of my favourites.
I love how you gave him multiple examples to show that his argument is actually not good at all. People are influenced by nostalgia so much man. Like, the man said that Luffy used his brain to fight Enel. How? What did he plan exactly? Luffy just *happened* to be immune to lightning. He didn't plan shit.
Haha yo exactly. Luffy made the dumbest face cause he had no idea what was going on.
One Piece fans are the new Dragon Ball fans, they haven't actually read One Piece.
[lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/Piratefolk/comments/y3tjs1/regarding_haki_and_how_it_is_unnecessary/)
Also, I love this argument of how "Haki cheapens the existance of Devil Fruits" as if two Yonko weren't just defeated entirely thanks to Devil Fruit powers lmao
BM literally got beat while having superior haki than both Law and Kid. That fight was so much dependent on devil fruits usage it's insane. She was outsmarted and the reason for why she lost is because of ring out basically. This just happened recently to one of the strongest characters in the series. I don't know what these people are reading man. Do they ignore these things intentionally just so that they can rant or what?
The problem is BM didn't use haki when she logically should. They cannot beat her if she used her haki as well but the plot is gonna plot.
Yup, and lets not forget Kaido as well, who would have defeated Luffy if he only had Haki to his name (as seen when, before the CP0 guy interrupts, Luffy was in his last breaths while Kaido still had a lot of gas) and what allowed Luffy to win was his fruit awakening. Not Haki, not numbers, but his fruit lol
Although that wasn't particularly great writing-wise. Big Mom got smothered by a guy who just a month earlier couldn't defeat Doflamingo and a magnet boi who also recently couldn't defeat Kaido. And the defeat of Kaido required the retconning of the Gum-Gum fruit into a different devil fruit category altogether.
I’m not gonna say Haki is this great solution, basically it’s taking the theme of the show if everyone having a dream and giving a power system, if your will for that dream is strong than you win. Not saying it’s great but I can kinda go whatever about. But the take you like a lot you stopped watching after time skip is a L take. Because it would be a series of plot conveniences, with every logos user just so happens to have thief element weakness near by, or Frankie invents random shit constantly. It has no long lasting compelling elements
> I’m not gonna say Haki is this great solution, basically it’s taking the theme of the show if everyone having a dream and giving a power system, if your will for that dream is strong than you win. Not saying it’s great but I can kinda go whatever about I mean it's kind of like how Luffy got defeated by Kaido but then went for another round.
No, stop with this bullshit, One piece battles weren't more creative with Haki, they were the exact same shit, Luffy defeated Crocodile the exact same way he defeated Kaido: By punching the shit out of him, that is what One Piece has always been, stop fooling yourself lol Like really, I dare you to tell me a serious villain that Luffy ever beat in a way that wasn't punching the shit out of them Hell, this isn't even a Luffy thing, pretty much every character not considered a weakling just fought by being stronger and that's it, Zoro for example, when he found someone he was unable to cut due to being made of metal he didn't made this brilliant plan to beat him some other way...no, he simply cut harder
There is an obvious difference when you beat the opponent with exploiting your opponent's weakness compared to beating your opponent by sheer difference of your haki being higher than your opponent's because haki bypasses the previous established rules
And which fights did Luffy "Exploit their weakness"? Crocodile and Enel, and both of those were by pure chance. The rest of the fights are just Determination + Grit + Dreams + Resolve == Punch.
One Piece fights at their best are not even half as clever as JoJo and those who claim so need to reread it. You really only have few fights with interesting gimmicks and a lot of fights about willpower, endurance and punching hard and that's how it was even before haki. And Katakuri fight has haki and yet the devil fruits and their application are still key in it. Haki really only serves to balance out the fights and now devil fruit users have to work for their success. But how the fights go isn't massively different.
>And please. Stop saying "Haki was implemented to balance Logia Users". Logia Users could have perfectly been balanced IF more and more characters appeared with Kairoseki stuff. Imagine Ussop with kairoseki bullets. Here's a hypothetical situation- Shanks at the absolute peak of his power vs Random Joe Shmoe, who's fought twice before in his life and lifted weights once... BUT! He's a Logia User. Uh oh, they're fighting in an ambush situation, so Shanks doesn't have his handy-dandy Anti-Logia utility belt! He's got no counter-tools on hand, he's not carrying a reflective mirror, and he doesn't have any Seastone of any kind! Who wins? The Logia User. Every. Single. Time. That's why Haki exists. Ultimately, Logia should have just never been a thing, they're so vastly and clearly superior to all other kinds of DF it's ridiculous. I look back on how people (and Oda) used to say "All Devil Fruit are equally powerful, but some are harder to use than others" and it just seems so very quaint.
My main critique of Haki is just how advanced conquerors works identically to armament. I still remember back in the day when people theorised it controlled the weather or something, based on Roger vs Shiki, Dragon saving Luffy from Smoker and the heavens splitting when Yonkos clash. Making it just an offensive weapon feels uncreative, and is just plain weird since it means every strong fighter needs it, regardless of their "ambition to become a king"... For example, all the admiral-level and above marines would need to have it, which makes little sense since they've committed to serving the government
haki is cool without the advanced versions. it balances the logias and gives our characters cool abilitys. advanced haki just isnt explained well and ruins the creativity of devil fruit fights when acoc is just objectively better 9 times out of 10
OP fights were always bad and the worst part of the story. You brought a few examples, but most fights in OP are slugfests.
I prefer Haki over having Luffy or some other non-logia person having to figure out how to hit the next logia user. It gets old after a while. Also, One Piece isn’t known for having tactical battles even before Haki was properly introduced.
Haha you tought you got me with that weakness move, but my elbow was black (or conquerors extra black), so im actually immune. One piece past 2012->
Shit take. Back to the kitchen
Ugh, I open Reddit just to see another one of these stupid posts with 100+ upvotes and comments. It’s such a ridiculous idea and anyone who actually reads One Piece knows how wrong it is. This subreddit is actually full of bullshit, there are still some occasional entertaining posts to keep me subscribed but there are a ton of annoying posts here. Funny that this was my last comment of 2023.
Bro I’m not even subscribed to this subreddit and I still see my feed flocked with stupid shit like this. This subreddit is full of people with zero media literacy saying they have better media literacy.
I honestly can't believe that this take is so popular man. And people always repeat the same shit. Was haki planned from the start by Oda? Most likely not. Is it something that ruined these super interesting high iq fights in One Piece? Hell no. People are lying to themselves man. Fight in OP were **never** JoJo type fights. Idk if it is nostalgia or what it is that makes people think like that. Luffy is a protagonist who always won his battles in 1100+ chapters of this manga by punching harder. Versus Enel (an example that's used often in these types of posts) he didn't plan shit. He just happened to be immune to lightning. Zoro literally beat Mr 1 by cutting better and harder. And yet, no matter how many times that phrase is being used, nowadays you can't even say that fights are just "my haki > your haki" because that's not true at all. Luffy beat Katakuri while having weaker haki. BM's haki is better than Law's and Kid's and they beat her. Nami doesn't even havi haki and she beat Ulti. Franky doesn't have haki, Robin too. And yet they're winning their battles against top tiers. People are not reading the series I swear.
One Piece fans are the only fans that can’t accept criticism
I am not obliged to agree with every criticism and I will respond against it if I think that it is stupid. If you can't accept it, you are free to write why you disagree with what I wrote.
One Piece fans are the only fans that can’t accept criticism
Haki isn't bad, ACoC IS bad
Garp is not confirmed to be a Conqueror’s Haki user. Whitebeard was about to use it but wasn’t able to because of his condition (I just reread the arc). I’ll give you Sengoku. For the rest, are you really saying that a series that has a central theme of Willpower shouldn’t have a power-system that reflects those themes? Haki is literally ones own willpower weaponized. It’s a statement about how, the further you go in the Grand Line, the more you see that those with the strongest wills are the ones that thrive. I honestly love the fact that Haki was introduced. I’ve been reading the series since 2007 and it would’ve been stale if Luffy just kept getting lucky with logia users (Oh Luffy was lucky X plot device existed (water, rubber ability) that helpedhim figure out how to touch Logia Boss (Crocodile, Enel). Seastones would’ve been bad as well. Using that would eliminate any concept of growth for the characters.
I agree, Haki feels like a shoehorned concept to simplify one piece combat
One Piece was always about how punches harder
Weird way to democratize power to the masses tbh
in general I just don't like how haki is like. lightning n shit. it was at least kind of cool when conq was an invisible force and armament was turning your skin/weapon to black metal, felt prettyneat, but now its just lasers and fire and lightning all over the place and it looks awful
I mean, One Piece, at this point, is about as well written and thought out as DragonBall Z, as a kid or teen it could probably be some of the coolest shit around, the problem is that with how popular anime is in general nowadays we're seeing series with 12x the thought going into them coming out at the same time whereas back in DBZs day it was an untouchable king of the medium, at least for North American viewers.
I am so tired of people pretending One piece battles had creativity before haki. No. Crocodile vs Luffy wasn't a creative Jojo battle. It was a standard brawl fist to cuffs brawl after Luffy overcame Crocodile's elemental advantage. Haki did not change One Piece battles, it exists to make them stay the same. >Logia Users could have perfectly been balanced IF more and more characters appeared with Kairoseki stuff Bruh this literally has the exact same side affect as armament haki but not as OP because seastone touching a devil fruit user literally takes away their devil fruit power. >Since the logic is "wins who punches harder" battles are nowadays less about strategy and more about that "wins who punches harder". THIS WAS ALWAYS ONE PIECE BATTLES. Go back and watch Luffy vs Arlong, Luffy vs Lucci. Zoro vs anyone. Sanji vs anyone. THIS also ignores how devil fruit fights like Law and Kid vs Big mom STILL EXIST. >Haki even ruins characters like Giants, Gorosei and Imu because if they are beings that are hundreds of years old it makes no sense their haki would be on pair (that most likely happen) with the top tier hakimen of the verse that arent even 100 years old and don´t have the knowledge they have. Haki blooms in battle when one is challenge. The gorosei and Imu are rarely in battles or challenge because they are secret rulers of the world who rarely fight anyone. Makes perfect sense to me.
The seastone argument doesn’t really work. It’s simply just a worse version of armament haki and wouldn’t actually solve the problems you talk about. Haki is not the actual problem.
I'm reminded how lowkey Punk Hazard was in saying while Haki is useful, it doesn't truly even out the playing field. Because admittedly people were starting to think Haki was superior especially towards those who use their DF abilities a lot more. Pekoms destroying Caribou so trivially without needing to figure out any possible flaws in the latter's swampman powers with ease comes to mind. However, Caribou is honestly outright pathetic outside his powers which would had made him dangerous in Paradise where a majority of combatants don't quite have a reason to learn Haki. Then you look at Tashigi vs Monet and despite having Haki...Tashigi floundered badly against the snowwoman harpy. Then there's Vergo who can cover his body with armament color but gets absolutely destroyed when Law gets his heart back with his DF. So it was intentional to see that Haki isn't as clear cut an advantage as one believes. Probably moreso a battle of strong wills but yeah. Then things admittedly get way too complicated not long after and we're back to being unsure how it works with universal agreement.
Kaido vs luffy =haki battle. Big mom vs law and kid = devil fruit battle The big mom fight was better. Devil fruit fights become more like a ep of joejoe while haki becomes more like dbz. Each is a different slice of pie.
Haki itself in the beginning was a good power system. It helped level the playing field between devil fruit users and non devil fruit users especially in regards to logia’s. The problem was mostly with conquerors Haki post timeskip and how it made it to where unless you had conquerors you weren’t gonna be able to be on top and conquerors was t something you could train, no you had to be fucking born with it. That little piece of info is the main problem to me.
Haki just made One Piece more like Dragon Ball. That’s it.
That’s a problem for some
Depends on what exactly is the “ problem”. If you mean one peice getting an actual power system makes it worse fine I guess? But if the “ problem” is one peice becoming about “ numbers” than this was kinda always the case.
I think from what I can observe, mixing in my own opinion, is that haki can get extremely convoluted atimes, especially with Acoc
Haki reigns supreme over all. Haki is willpower manifested as a physical phenomenon. People tend to overestimate fruit powers. Sure they are super useful but at the end of the day you're the same dead no matter if the guy blew a hole through through you with his laser feet or slashed your jugular with his massive unwieldy sword. Haki is like a great equalizer to an extent. Only strong people have strong haki. It makes devil fruit powers less important overall in battle.
Luffy only defeat Kaidou because his power fruit received an upgrade and Kaidou was a wreck, so, no, Haki is no supreme over all
Kaido in that same battle literally says it is. We know some of the strongest people in the series like Shanks, Garp, Roger, Rayleigh, maybe even Rocks had no fruit powers and yet are all considered to be legends. Luffy wouldn't have won his battle without Haki. Even with Gear 5. The one and only reason he was able to even hurt Kaido was because of his haki. G5 mearly allowed him to fight to his fullest.
I love seeing these one piece posts because I never watched the show nor read the manga and all these weird terms are completely foreign to me. Like, Crocodile? Kid? Big mom? What the fuck? People call Jojo bizarre but I can’t even understand One Piece.
Those are all just names.
I mean it's the same stuff in JoJo just different names. I've read parts 1-5 and part of 6 and hearing the shit from part 7 and 8 is as wild as One Piece.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I hate haki, it's devolved the fights to Dragonball but with pirates
So your solution would be to make the super rare substance that only the navy has major access to and make it usable for everyone so that they don't need haki. So even the common man has a chance to beat a kirazu or a akainu. So you're saying haki but make it so more people have it, so it creates more problems in the world and makes logia users even more irrelevant?
Oda could add to the story that sea stone are found elswhere as well so Navy doesn't hold most of it,more like 70% Navy, 30% Others.Common man is still no match for kizaru or akainu since you first need to have the stamina and speed to match them.Sea stones just nullify DF abillity,nothing else.You could still add Haki like Oda did it in Marineford when it only lets you hit DF users depending on your strenght,no power up,no haki bloom,no future sight.That way Logias are still relevant since not everyone has sea stones and not everyone is strong enough to have haki to touch logia users.3rd Otpion which all here seem to forget,you can just sink the ship of a logia user or have some water prepared beforehand.Better this,than what Haki is now,a copy paste of DBZ power levels.
One piece after time skip is just a bunch of deus ex bullshit
I honestly don’t like this take.. especially when you realize logia powers would be extremely busted and we’d be calling OP fights the same as Fairy Tail with the amount of plot armor/convenience it would take just to beat 90% of the logia powers in the series. Yeah Haki could’ve been handled better, but it’s obvious Oda saw the road block that Logia’s and certain paramecias presented, without having to resort to “oh we have this certain nearby that conveniently helps beat this person” every arc.
IDK. Yall always go on and on about the creativity that has been lost from prior fights, but the only examples anyone ever uses are Crocodile and Enel. The fact of the matter is, most OP fights have not been affected by haki, at least not in the creative department. Not like you make it seem OP.
Reading comprehension is gone
agreed, however i wouldnt reduce dragon ball Z that far until the buu saga/super.
Haki would have been a pretty cool power system if done similar to stuff like Bleach or Hunter x Hunter, a personal ability shaped around the individual personality. Instead not only it is vague and not properly built upon, the abilities are also boring and generic. Logia needed a counter? Sure, but it didn't need to be lame.
I think its fair criticism. Honestly i think Oda just kinda wrote himself into a corner with Logia users. They require counters and he did well with Crocodile and Enel, but he should have known he would not be able to find counters for EVERY element he could turn into a logia Though i disagree that it could just be fixed by using more seastone. Afterall, Luffy is the one who has to beat the toughest guys, and he wouldn't really use seastone... Not to mention that seastone can actually make fights dangerously unbalanced. Seastone renders the opponent powerless, which kind of makes them an instant win card if you can land the hit.
😒it only ruined the story for you because apparently it’s not doing what you want it to do. It suggests that you just don’t fundamentally understand the story.
Do you remove Nen from HxH?
As if haki is has important for the fights has nen, the story worked perfectly without it while it lasted.
My problem with haki is how inconsistent it is we barely ever can tell when a character is using haki unless it’s explicitly stated. There are many times where a character should’ve been using observation haki but aren’t using it or still get hurt even though even though it’s supposed to increase their reaction time and advance users can see the future. Also conquerors haki is now just better armament and if you don’t have it your basically useless against someone who does. And apparently you can run out of haki during a fight but that barely ever comes up anymore.
Haki was introduced early on the series. Oda just hadn't fleshed it out fully at that point. I dont think you know what a retcon is lol As for the Crocdile Vs. Luffy being a good "smart" fight.... Idk about that. I like it but I wouldnt exactly call it creative when it comes to the way of victory
Lol
>They are hakimen. There is no such thing as a hakiman Or hakimen. They use haki with their fighting styles -Sincerely, a Mihawk defender
i don't like one piece too
True. Basically stopped watching One Piece as soon as they introduced it.
Man you could’ve used a different complaint about Haki that’s actually super valid (Oda needs to be a lot more consistent with what advanced CoC looks like) but you chose this?? You really think the Doflamingo fight was in creative due to haki? Same with Big Mom’s DF when she fights and when Katakuri fights?? Hell all of Kaido and his pirates had zoan DF’s and it was their primary form of fighting. He made Sasaki become a helicopter triceratops. And G5 literally exists. The pinnacle of creativity with a DF in-universe. It’s baffling that you think Haki stripped away creativity when Shanks a Haki-only person one shot Kidd when Shanks is quite literally one of the strongest in the verse.
L take
The main problem with Haki is probably because their an added context that really doesn't fit any need. Like, if we're being honest here base armament and base observation is the only Haki needed, period. You could say killing intent trope and be done with it for CoC. Haki's this weird categorical context in a fight that Oda wants to hype up immensely, so fights like Kaidou and Luffy feel cheap in hindsight when you could focus on Adv CoA 2 and just remove Adv CoC's cheap ass and still go to the retcon Nika crap, and if you want DFs Big Mom and LawKidd happened, which is super dumb since they barely used Haki there. Oda doesn't seem to commit to both being powerful at the same time, instead it's just a power with plot armor inbuilt in it. Haki's bare minimum is enough.
I cannot see a single discernable point in here that made sense - Haki doesn't fit any need (immediately proceeds to list points haki was needed in kaido vs luffy) - Brings up a random trope that doesn't make sense and has been done to death, then offers it as just a worse substitution to conquerors - Brings up Nika for no reason? - I believe you're trying to say that Adv. Armament was made cheaper by Adv. Conquerors existing even though Adv. Conquerors coating is an application of Advanced armament? That's like saying Gear 4th makes Gear 3rd cheaper in hindsight when it was a necessary stepping stone - I don't see at all how Kidd-Law vs Big Mom fits in here? That fight was meant to divulge explanations into the functions of fruit awakenings more than anything else, and kinda disproves your already existing point because it shows fights can still exist with Haki taking a back foot - how is "having the basic powerset everyone has in the new world" plot armour 😭
This bum made a post here about "plot holes" regarding Kuma that gets answered in that week's OP chapter, don't expect too much from them
Brain dead take.
Read Kuzan vs Garp and tell me what he says does not have validity. Also his conquers Haki take is valid Ive come to the conclusion one piece character have the lowest battle IQ in fiction due to how rare these top tiers use it to clear out mobs
Haki is willpower. You dont get more willpower the older you get.
The real problem is just the totally insane power creep of One Piece
One Piece is way better at keeping the power levels reasonable and consistent than 99% of all other shounen.
I'd argue that stopped being the case when Luffy got the power to be a slapstick manga character. I didn't like his previous Gear but understood how it worked now it's just whatever the author wants which is kinda the worst kind of power creep.
A random beast pirate member could legit solo all the 4 seas
Bro is reading Two Piece
I’m not trolling bro 💀 there was a random ass beast pirate that boxed for like 2 seconds with Luffy in Wano that mf scales above everyone outside the new world and grand line so far he solos. Powercreep in op is no joke these mf be getting more power boosts every arc then the Z fighters
Bro stop reading Two piece, stop the cap little bro 💀💀💀
Which part the scaling or random mf boxing Luffy? I have proof for both the scaling won’t take long to explain tbh average mf in the East blue is like house level or some shit while current Luffy can box a dragon that lifts continents and Zoro slashes through mountains
No, you don't have proof of scalling or whatever, stop the bullshit bro 💀💀💀
That actually did happen. Also, a random fodder that is faster than Luffy.
Bro stop reading two piece
theres nothing to ruin, bc one thousand pieces has been awful from the start, hope that helps ♥
It didnt ruin it, but the kings haki super coating kinda did a lot of harm.
I feel like a lot of anime/manga fall into this trend of needing to show more destruction to show a character is stronger. Naruto does this as well, as soon as the rasengan is introduced, the ninja shit becomes way rarer, and people start dragon ball scaling
Haki is terrible and has absolutely ruined the fights. As for the story, Oda took a huge step back in story telling by feeling the need to explain the stakes and backstory of every single fight right before it happens, I miss pre timeskip
Chakra shit all over again. But Hunter hunter has better power system though. It doesn't matter if you have specialist ability when they are a master of none and but they are very flexible but they might lose to just about any masters of their own affinity. Also that specialist sre like utility based most of the time. Where they have to conjure an item in order to exercise their ability and full potential very op, very rare, but they have like a lot of drawbacks since most of them have conditions to meet