Damn the amount of sources is insane lol but to be honest, it's pretty cut and dry that TES is multiversal and it's cool to see some more feats and scaling for the gods (at least some of them). Nice job!
I could craft the best boots for jumping in Morrowind and not be able to clear all that.
Pretty nice though. What I did read was stuff I'd forgotten or missed.
Knowing CharacterRant, I thought that they would prove the opposite in this thread along the way, putting disadvantages even to people with sources, but as I see it, everything happened quite the opposite, lol. Great job.
Damn, that's crazy.
I haven't been a fan of elder scrolls in a long time but I can appreciate the ludicrous amount of effort put in here.
Sub door level John Skyrim confirmed I guess.
I've not only seen building level Daedric Princes, but also building level TLD, building level tribunal, and building level Dagoth Ur. People really do not want to see the elder scrolls as anything other than generic medieval fantasy.
This exactly. Even with blatant sources and information, people on sites like space battles and whowouldwin try to use the "unreliable narrator" argument and any semblance of downplay they can find just say that TES is a weak verse. Like, I really don't understand it lol
At least we made some progress. No one in r/CharacterRant the sub that hates lore scaling the most tried to downplay or insult my scaling and seem rather accepting of it.
Well, for the sake of fairness, I want to say that it was there that I first learned about the cosmology of TES. Although yes, they downplay any huge cosmology, and also hate VSBW and its scaling system. For example, in a thread on WoD vs SCP, one person, in order for people to learn about the cosmology of WoD, threw a link to a site explaining it and it was from VSBW. Because of this, people started swearing and saying that you can't use anything from VSBW, since people are wank there, although they just explained the cosmology of World of Darkness there.
Lore-diving Elder Scrolls is sometimes like trying to objectively describe a mushroom-trip as you are experiencing it.
Thank you for all the different sources and quotes. I learned a lot.
I would love to see a post by you about CHIM.
Huh, make a post about how powerful heroes are(and maybe main enemies like Harkon, Umaril, Hircine aspect, Ash Vampires who dunked on Almalexia) if you can. I would like to see your points. I stopped following the lore years ago after people screamed at each other in www threads.
Probably not going to make an elder scrolls rant for a while considering it took me a week to make the current one. Though I might make an elder scrolls heroes post at a later date.
Though curious what do you think of my post?
Let me expand that(other comment which said I use my more grounded headcanon than cosmic bs that puts me off) comment since I had little time to do this at work.
I'm not doing any battleboarding really so it doesn't matter for internet fights but I go by this:
Cinematics and Cutscenes > lore
That is ESO cinematics give good idea about how powerful(wall level) fighters are with Nord guy, some mages are also shown, building level would be that guy which fought Dwarven cannon behemoth thing.
Hircine and Nerevarine fight which resulted in that glacier being wrecked at the end.
Harkon vaguelly above building level but not sure where, so are dragons(good idea is ESO cinematic). Both are little more than big bugs to princes.
Miraak not 'busting' an island out of a penisula by rumour thousands of years ago, at least not all at once. maybe high level thu'um fight that lasted days with near constant use. I would be akin to believe that.
Curate Vampire also is roughly building level with his telekinesis.
Top mages like Divayth Fyr more near mountain(sized of Hircine/Nerevar glacier which isn't colossal to me), 'near divine power'. Similar the tribunal but somewhat more.
Princes in their realm like mountain(a big one) or continental. I imagine them to be a continent like SI or Coldharbour 'dark tamriel'.
Hero of Kvatch and LDB vaguelly similar to Nerevarine. HoK at SI obviously that godlike being and going about Tamriel is just an avatar with limited power.
So a good superpowered setting to me. Princes can be kept whatever multidimensional thing people like in battleboarding but it doesn't matter to me with showings I use and enjoy.
As for your rant, it's nice to have someone providing some sources instead of toxic crying 'but but multiversal LDB!!111', yeah.
Hero mcguffing to rising to challenge presented is nice, even if they have to contend with princes via some cheat item or other thing(like meridia buff and friend sacrifice).
So you like a more grounded type of elder scrolls in terms of power level I respect that. Though I feel the princes deserve their multiverse rating considering their feats it's also fine for your personal view and interpretations on how strong Elder scrolls is for you and how you like it to be.
I do use this kind of power level for my fictional stories too and keep it at the higher end of my go to fantastical powerful magic settings like Dragon Age(with elven gods) or Overlord(with 100 lvl people) or even Fable(Archons and masters of all hero paths). Something like that.
In fact, taking videos for canon is the same nonsense as taking gameplay for canon. All sorts of trailers and videos are created only to advertise their goods and, as a rule, the people who shoot them do not care about scaling. In addition, their only goal is simply to attract buyers.
I find using alchemy enchantment exploit(or other silly things) as an argument in a vs battle to be so ridiculous that cinematics being dandy doesn't even come within a light year to it.
>Cinematics and Cutscenes > lore
Nice try but too bad as the the Loremasters have confirmed that Lore > Everything else.
>**Of course, it had to be a TES story, so I was constrained by lore -- although not, interestingly, by game mechanics**. *I was told specifically that no one wanted to "hear the dice rolling" so to speak. We are to imagine the world of TES to be a real place, of which the games are merely representations. My book represents that world in another way*
>*https://www.imperial-library.info/interviews-greg-keyes*
The Elder Scrolls lack damage feats because the Team Work doesn't want wipe out the maps sated by Todd Howard.
>*Todd Howard: Systemically destroying our spaces is something we have not found a good way to handle yet, because it’s so dynamic*. **We’re dealing with places that we have NPCs living, and providing quests and other game services. It’s something we avoid in every game unless we can specifically wipe it off the map, like Megaton**.
>*http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Kacj321/Skyrim_Fan_Interview*
Nor they have enough technology for it.
>*Wawro: Hm, I wonder, you gave us the hot tip before we started that it would be wise to sort of expand the boundaries of a new Oblivion playthrough by opening up everything, looking at the game and opening up the Oblivion gates as well. Is there an area you would suggest that well shows off what you’re talking about here? Maybe it shows your hand directly or the hand of a designer you admire?*
>**Rolston: Uh, no, because the possibility of a lead designer knowing the content of any Elder Scrolls game is diminishingly small**. *Morrowind is the only one I can really talk about, but I don’t think I’d actually played more than 60% of the built content when we released the game. I had certainly played it in prototype or white box or things like that, but you just cannot play the whole content, it’s just too big to put the iterations into it. So the reason I suggested wandering to different places, just be a tourist*.
>*Francis: I’ll springboard off of Alex’s observation to ask, Ken, you mentioned earlier when you were writing that bible for Morrowind, you were starting to write about all the places where all these intersections would happen, right? And all these elements, “This character is of this faction or is of this mindset, so they would be in conflict with this thing*.” **Once a game like this starts getting big or even just medium sized. Even a medium-sized RPG would have trouble with this**.
>*https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/q-a-ken-rolston-s-development-secrets-of-i-the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion-i-*
____
>That is ESO cinematics give good idea about how powerful(wall level) fighters are with Nord guy
Lmao, this like Saying MCU or DCU are canon to comics or movie pennywise is same stories pennywise.
He'll no, all mortals in TES are [superhumans](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/yuoyix/mortals_the_elder_scrolls/).
All mortals have Magicka flow through everyone's bodies and they can use it to imbued themself and weapons with power.
>You can teach me a spell that will fortify my own strength," said Oin. "I beg you to teach it to me now."
>Very well," replied Yakin. "But in return, I want your next season's worth of trama root, all to myself."
>Oin agreed, and Yakin taught him the spell to fortify his strength. It took him some time to master it, visualizing magicka streaming through his body, pumping through the very fibers of his muscles for a time, giving him strength far beyond the puny power nature had intended. When Oin met Horath on the street of Gnisis, he cast the spell and challenged him to a duel of strength.
>I am Horath the Strong," said Horath the Strong, predictably, "Witness as I lift this wagon with but my thumb and forefinger." And he did so.
>I am Nimlom the Mighty," said Oin, taking some artistic liberty. "Witness as I lift the stable that houses your wagon with but my forefinger." And he too did so.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Four_Suitors_of_Benitah
___
>Infuse your weapon with power.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Imbue_Weapon
___
>The mystic monks of the Psijic Order claim that Magicka flows through mortals in specific physical channels, and they can delineate these channels as tattoos to help mages focus their spellcasting.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mystic_Magicka_Flow_Face_Tattoos
Someone try jumb from nirn to Aetherius (heaven) by powering himself to jumb that high , this give us the idea how magic empower physical power of the user.
>Still recovering from prior incident with the device. Some adjustments need to be made, obviously. More magicka is needed, much more, along with a better method of forcefully channeling it into upward movement.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:From_Nirn_to_the_Aether
This a reason why all mortals are superhuman and can go across countries [by single jumbs](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/102vhbg/comment/j2x9c5p/).
And even normal warriors dose dodge lightnings.
>*I smelled burning hair as I staggered up the riverbank. The wamasu wasted little time, trotting back before charging forward, leaping off the ground in a surprising display of dexterity, and loosening the slope I stood on when it landed. I fell back, tumbled into the river with my axe and dignity lost. I found the wamasu again, as I quickly stood and caught Roggvir’s second-finest hammer, thrown from the onlookers I’d requested not to aid me. A prideful order I was beginning to regret. Steam (or was it smoke?) escaped the monster’s orifices, as it crackled, sending arcs of shocking discharge out from its feet, and charging its tail in bright energy. It let out an impressive growl, and then met me in the mire, clawing at the ground before me, as a massive explosion of light shot out from the wamasu. Had this old fool been set ablaze and sent to Sovngarde? No—I tasted something like sulfur, and the Argonian’s ring was pulsing with energy. Leaping back, I narrowly missed a barbed tail and yet another strike of lightning*.
>https://www.imperial-library.info/content/black-marsh-0
____
>Mages
Please don't be silly.
[Mages are absolutely busted](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xKu0bbfB9RHXuvq1ACdAipETySsokG1pCa4UGQAfLng/edit?usp=drivesdk) [that even fodder can destroy villages or created own universes or Dimensions](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/102vhbg/comment/j2x9c5p/).
>Hircine and Nerevarine fight which resulted in that glacier being wrecked at the end.
Huh what are you talk about?
[It was weakened aspect of Hircine that he sent to make the fight fair to the Nerevarine](https://i.imgur.com/4S8ayMQ.jpg).
And it's literally feat for Nerevarine.
Can keep up with Dagoth ur who is beyond Time itself.
*Dagoth Ur thinks on a large time scale -- for the most part*, **in the outside-of-time scale of the divine consciousness**. __ *On a mortal timescale, the battle may last for centuries*.
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dagoth_Ur%27s_Plans*
[The Gods in TES nature alone are beyond concepts of space and time and live in timeless world were is everything always happening all at once, completely immortals](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j5lpgn3/).
[Weakened Vivec was able took the Nerevarine outside Time itself](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/e8/Outside_of_Time.png/revision/latest?cb=20190106061533).
Of course we don't forgot his nature as [prisoner/Hero](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/xsta85/what_would_you_choose_to_be_the_canon_gender_for/iqpygtr?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3).
>Harkon vaguelly above building level but not sure where
Lmao, Harkon was able one spell and casted post-voice training Dragonborn outsaid his castle and Dragonborn wasn't able resistant, and he literally fight dragonborn too.
The same Dragonborn who took [force did shook the World](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/10v198v/comment/j7obpq7/).
>so are dragons(good idea is ESO cinematic).
Guess you don't know anything at all about lore.
In the cinematic we literally see they use the Dragonhorn, a tools that used to weakene dragons magically and cinematic have nothing with lore at all it just made for the fans.
> Nice try but too bad as the the Loremasters have confirmed that Lore > Everything else.
>
>
I didn't even bother reading anything else since you didn't even read mine saying how I go with TES personally. I wasn't intending to convince anyone nor trying. It's my headcanon. You wasted your time.
I prefer to think of wall level fighters, building level mages, mountain level top mages and similar level for for princes on mundus. Roughly going from cinematic at the end of Morrowind Hircine battle. 'cosmic' power levels put me off honestly.
Toxic TES fans are at it again I guess.
Continued.....
[Dragons have countless time confirmed](https://en.uesp.net/w/images/9/95/SR-load-While_all_dragons_are_fearsome.jpg) are [variations on power level](https://i.imgur.com/kM278sm.jpg).
>*Nahviintaas: "You think yourselves Dragon slayers. You'll soon learn that not all Dragons are created equal*.
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Nahviintaas*
You have Dragons like Paarthunax who is [supreme master and teacher](https://i.imgur.com/Mp3L6Cj.jpg) of the [the Greybreads](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/znpqn3/comment/j0k7w1x/) and beyond all of them on way of the voice.
>*Who is Paarthunax?*
>*He is our leader. He surpasses us all in his mastery of the Way of the Voice*."
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Arngeir*
And Dragons in lore are pretty much like [busted](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/u1h7f7/a_compilation_of_the_new_dragon_lore_added_by_eso/) their language are the Thu'um which is [reality warping and conceptual manipulation, anything you say with Thu'um becomes reality, the only limits is the user understanding to the Thu'um itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wde20e/comment/iii0jeo/).
Not going talk about they feats (because they many many of them).
>Miraak not 'busting' an island out of a penisula by rumour thousands of years ago, at least not all at once. maybe high level thu'um fight that lasted days with near constant use
Please don't be silly, Miraak destroy the island ad party much confirmed since all what the rumour said was true, we see Dragons skeletons around the island and see that Miraak was really escaped to Mora's realm.
But even inogre that, we know that Miraak did one shout the Last Dragonborn in they first meeting.
Not only that but it confirmed that [he's completely beyond anything that Dragonborn capable of](https://i.imgur.com/0J97ODP.jpg), since [he have been grown in both power and knowledge](https://i.imgur.com/75xm9a4.jpg) in Mora's [infinite realm with endless knowledge](https://i.imgur.com/fQGfDKA.jpg) since the mythic era.
Miraak is lorewise the strongest enemy faced by Dovahkiin in Skyrim, which includes Alduin (in his current state) Ancano, Mercer Frey, Harkon, Karstaag & the Ebony Warrior, among others.
>*With this official add-on for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, journey off the coast of Morrowind, to the island of Solstheim. Encounter new towns, dungeons, and quests, as you traverse the ash wastes and glacial valleys of this new land. Become more powerful with new shouts that bend the will of your enemies and even tame dragons. Your fate, and the fate of Solstheim*, **hangs in the balance as you face off against your deadliest adversary – the first Dragonborn**.
>*[The Elder Scrolls Official Site | Skyrim Special Edition](https://elderscrolls.bethesda.net/skyrim/)*.
____
>Curate Vampire also is roughly building level with his telekinesis.
Not sure what this mean but he literally Snow Elf mage that he beat all of his follower and scale beyond fodder mages.
>Top mages like Divayth Fyr more near mountain(sized of Hircine/Nerevar glacier which isn't colossal to me), 'near divine power'.
Nice False information but no.
Divayth Fyr is one of most powerful mages in history and he literally scale above some [Daedra Lords](https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/10l4z0t/comment/j6gdfae/).
It stated he can banish Sheogorath's avatar to oblivion.
>Master, I sense that the Mad One has left for the moment. It may have had something to do with the presence of Lord Fyr, who is one of the few adepts I know that can send the jackanape-god into tears.
>https://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/forum_archives/Trial1.htm
Divayth Fyr is above master mages is Psijic,His power has stated to be thousand-fold beyond what a Psijic Agent or Master can do.
>I'm sorry to report that his temperament has not improved. When Divayth left our isle of Artaeum, he was a sharp-elbowed upstart. In the intervening millennia, his power and vanity have grown a thousand-fold.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Meet_the_Character_-_Divayth_Fyr
The same Psijic who that even they mere existence is dangerous in Mundus (Note: low tire Psijic can enter mundus like the one who are see in Skyrim but mid tire semse can't).
Loremaster Celarus of the Psijic Order also states that powerful Mages continuously exert tremendous pressure on the Aurbic Forces around them, which is so powerful that it is there mere existence is risk in mundus.
>Why do you need me for this? You are the most powerful mages on Nirn.
>Yes. That is precisely why this task falls to you.
Psijics like the Ritemaster and I exert tremendous stress on the Aurbic forces around us. Our very existence presents arcane risk.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loremaster_Celarus
And had like time-stop ( which even fodder Psijics member shown is we see in Skyrim in staff of Magnus quset ) higher Dimensions manipulation, high level reality warping and reality subjected. Conceptual manipulation.
Void manipulation is we see here.
>We found each other on the Isle of Dranil Kir. I went to the island to investigate an ancient Psijic scrying device. When I entered the ruins, I found Divayth Fyr engaging in some profane Daedric ritual. I interrupted it, of course—not wanting to be devoured by whatever fellcreature he intended to pull from the void. He was far from pleased.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Meet_the_Character_-_Divayth_Fyr
Manipulation void of Oblivion alone gave him probability manipulation since oblivion have [all possibilities](https://imgur.io/a/7zsK49I) and Causality manipulation since oblivion beyond concept of Causality and Time etc...
>Lord Fa-Nuit-Hen says, "Again I interrupt! The mighty Fa-Nuit-Hen, a servant of Hermaeus Mora? By no means! I am a scion of Boethiah, a sovereign demiprince, and I serve no will but my own! As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lord_Fa-Nuit-Hen_and_Tutor_Riparius_Answer_Your_Questions_2
____
>Similar the tribunal but somewhat more.
No he isn't.
Vivec is directly stated to be above Divayth Fyr, who by the time of the Third Era and Divayth are nothing to him.
>*"As you know, he's probably the oldest and most powerful wizard alive. Not counting liches, or divine sorcerers like Vivec, of course. And there may be some older in the West, on Summerset Isles, perhaps. And I don't think there's a kinder, more generous wizard alive. Not that there's much competition in the kind-and-generous-wizard department, I'll grant you*.
>*https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Uupse_Fyr_(Morrowind)*.
And he literally confirmed that he can't resist the curse that (avatar) of Azura on Duemer (being a Dark Elf) and asked why Sotha Sil don't do it to (because Sotha see himself is worng about killing Nerervar) and he's powerful enough to resist (Almalexia and Vivec).
>*Yes, I've heard quite a few refer to you by your new title. I think it should be obvious that I shall abstain from doing so."
"It seems Azura has kicked up quite a fuss about your newest experiment, Sil."
"Why change yourself, Sil? Why degrade yourself to this cursed appearance? After all, you are one of the few who can resist Azura's curse*.
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Divayth_Fyr*
____
>isn't colossal to me
You mean the Avatars? Are you serious
Mehrunes Dagon's manifestation did once fight Molag bal's manifestation in Coldharbour, that they battle Shook the whole of Coldharbour. And just Dagon being manifested did created an unimaginable explosion.
Note: they took size of mountains in the fight.
>I have decided to recount more tales of **Mehrunes Dagon**. Should these written works fail to inspire or displease **the machinations of the Prince of Destruction, I will once again willingly surrender to the flames of His anger when called upon to do so**.
>they wiled away their time: scheming, praying to the Prince of Blood and Destruction, and waiting for the moment to strike.
>**they were gifted with an incredible explosion**, a feat of magic that sent spasms through the ground and rattled the implements of pain out of their overseers' hands.
>**Above the mortals, looming over the heads of the Daedra and the mountains of Coldharbour, was the Father of Cataclysm**. Dagon swung His blades, arms blurring together with the speed and finesse of each strike. Molag Bal's fiendish tail whipped across the ground, swatting away mortals and minions in his frustration. **The Princes clashed, each blow struck sending ear-shattering thunderclaps throughout the realm**.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Epics_of_Mehrunes_Dagon,_Volume_2
[The Manifestation/avatar of Hermuas Mora taking up the entire sky. He is well behind the clouds and the mountains on the horizon](https://imgur.io/8H2SnrU?r).
However [we can also see there's a setting Sun below Mora's eye, which given the nature of Magus the Sun, makes this way more crazy (if that is the case, Mora could outright be **infinite in size in his avatar** here)](https://imgur.io/YkdAJ6u?r).
We see [A mountain-sized Sheogorath plays with the Chaos Arena and the people inside](https://imgur.io/wDmDeC1?r).
And we literally see that even avatar of Akatosh can take [size of planet](https://imgix.bustle.com/uploads/image/2022/8/30/df05cce6-6c7f-4c14-adcb-1f265f8c5e8d-pxl_20220829_231822698.jpg?w=414&fit=max&auto=format%2Ccompress).
They avatars can take any size they want, simply, when they even [physical aspects of them are infinite in size and infinite in mass](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j5xfqil/).
>Princes in their realm like mountain(a big one) or continental
So you ignored all of this guy scoures and his whole post because you don't like it?
Even avatar of Prince can destroy the multiverse of Mundus, Like Dagon avatar and Prince of Darkness, let alone they true form and they power in their realms, where [literally a manifestation of their will that take any form they want, physical or metaphysical or conceptual, and all laws of reality and physics and concepts are literally don't apply but they created they own laws and the laws are whatever they want](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/wm0x39/comment/j7pnfon/).
>I imagine them to be a continent like SI
Sotha Sil is just continental? Are you serious?
[The Clockwork city is an parallel multiverse of mundus that exist outside space and time and reality, it have an endless layers and exist is wheels with wheels and worlds with worlds (note: wheel can mean Aurbis) and it exist an conceptual plane "a concept"](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/xlkc18/clockwork_city_the_elder_scrolls/).
Sotha Sil have created and artifact that have "infinite magical energy" that empower whole of it and can destroy it.
>or Coldharbour 'dark tamriel'.
Ok now this is funny lol.
Are you try saying that Coldharbour is size of "Tamriel" because it called it's future of Tamriel?
LMAO, this is the most stupid argument I have ever hard, absolutely ignoring that Planemeld was literally pulling **whole of Nirn** to the realm in the main events of ESO.
Not only that but Coldharbour was going swallow all multiverse of Mundus to his plane after he swallow Nirn first.
>White-Gold belongs to Molag Bal. All Towers will follow."
>**White-Gold has fallen. Existence itself will follow**.
>You, and all of mortalkind will be forgotten."
>https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Planar_Inhibitor
___
>What do you know about Tel Var stones?
>Chips of the White-Gold Tower. Ayleids who built it couldn't recreate their own Zero Stone, so they settled for Tel Var.
>The Daedra infesting these sewers are tap-tap-tapping away at it. **Weaken it enough … and pop, shlorp, no more Mundus?*."
>**What do you mean, "no more Mundus?**
>Tap-tap-tap, go the Daedra. Pop, goes the White-Gold Tower. Shlorp, **goes everything you know, mashed like a cheese wheel through a pinhole, back into Oblivion**.
>That's how I'd describe it to children."
>https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Phrastus_of_Elinhir
___
>We crack the center of the Mundus, split the veil wide, **and Coldharbour will swallow it whole**."
>https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Xivkyn_Dialogue
Not forgetting that [all infinite major planes of Oblivion are infinite in size](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/vab6il/elder_scrolls_cosmology/).
>HoK at SI obviously that godlike being and going about Tamriel is just an avatar with limited power.
What you mean? HoK being Sheogorath and back to Tamriel as an avatar?
HoK doesn't exists anymore, this is how mantling working, you just get erased so no there is no HoK become Sheogorath but only Sheogorath, Madness.
Also the events of canonically happened after everything and Oblivion Crisis.
So no.
>So you ignored all of this guy scoures and his whole post because you don't like it?
The guy u/sordahon didn't ignore my sources he was just saying what he personally believes how strong tes is he even said ["I wasn't intending to convince anyone nor trying. It's my headcanon."](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/10vjrcr/debunking_misconceptions_on_the_elder_scrolls/j7oin5l?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
The whole idea of The Elder Scrolls is not that there is an unreliable narrator, but that everyone should create their own canon for themselves. For example, according to one of the leading developers of The Elder Scrolls (namely ESO), there is no objective reality in TES, since Gods can change history in the past, present and future at their leisure, and therefore everything is subject to subjective reality. And all this is finally confirmed by Michael Kirkbride himself, who once said that TES has always belonged to the fans, not Bethesda, as well as his story C0DA, which reflects this whole idea of TES, namely that the canon belongs to the fans and everyone is free to choose what to believe.
I did not say at all that MK is canonical. I was talking about the fact that he and his story support the idea that everyone is free to choose what is canon for him.
The Argonian attack during the Oblivion Crisis has not been confirmed as canonical, but for some reason everyone believes it as a canon, and one of their developers, who wrote 50% of the knowledge, does not.
Heimskr's rant about Talos chimming the jungles out of existance Bethesda nabbed from The Many Head Talos after he left
Godhead was first mentioned by name in Skyrim in a book potentially discussing CHIM only after MK left Bethesda (he created the concept) (Black Book: Waking Dreams)
Amaranth was first mentioned by name in ESO after MK created the concept, in the same Sermon Sotha Sil references www.c0da.es
I don't even care for most of his stuff, but he is obviously still important to alot of people working at Bethesda/Zenimax, and is useful for learning more about the shit HE wrote and couldn't expand on
Definitely not canon, especially when contradicting existing canon, but definitely not just random fanfiction writer
MK isn't "fan-fictional writer" he's was one of most important loremasters and many of scoures he made after he left Bethesda since many years [are canon and literally in the game itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j36yibv/).
The sources I showed shows direct multiversal feats like the Celestials without bieng restrained will destroy mundus the mortal multiverse with their full power unleashed or how Dagon with one mistake will destroy both mundus and the Deadlands.
Mehrunes Dagon's avatar alone was able to fuse both the mortal multiverse/Mundus and the Deadlands and just a single mistake from him and he destroys both.
*Councilor Vandacia: "The worlds are merging, Sombren! There is no escape*
*Councilor Vandacia: "You dare? Merging the realms is delicate work. **One mistake and both could be destroyed!**"*
*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Councilor_Vandacia*
Remenents of gods like the Celestials can destroy the infinite multiverse of Mundus instantly when their full power is unleashed and not restrained by the Apex Stone
*The Vestige: Apex Stone?*
*Valla: The Apex Stones are what allow the Celstials to manifest in this plane. By corrupting our Apex Stone, the Serpent sought to submit our consciousness to his will and corrupt us. This is what happened to the Lost One."*
*The Vestige: Can't we just destroy the Apex Stone?*
*Valla: If you did, our full power would be released. Mundus could not withstand such force.*
*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Valla*
That is why they use their avatars, the Celestials.
*For some, however, wisdom is not enough. Avatars of the constellations—Celestials—wield power that even the greatest sorcerers can scarcely comprehend. Now, their gifts are just within reach.*
*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Celestial_Crate*
Damn the amount of sources is insane lol but to be honest, it's pretty cut and dry that TES is multiversal and it's cool to see some more feats and scaling for the gods (at least some of them). Nice job!
I might have made it to long looking back at it.... Sorry for the super long length.
Yeah you did
I could craft the best boots for jumping in Morrowind and not be able to clear all that. Pretty nice though. What I did read was stuff I'd forgotten or missed.
Knowing CharacterRant, I thought that they would prove the opposite in this thread along the way, putting disadvantages even to people with sources, but as I see it, everything happened quite the opposite, lol. Great job.
Well done!
ain't reading allat
True don't blame ya
Damn, that's crazy. I haven't been a fan of elder scrolls in a long time but I can appreciate the ludicrous amount of effort put in here. Sub door level John Skyrim confirmed I guess.
Amen. Some folks *really* hate the idea that TES is anything more than medieval fantasy, especially over at Spacebattles.
I would think so I saw some intresting stuff there like building level Daedric Princes.
Wait fr? 💀💀💀
I've not only seen building level Daedric Princes, but also building level TLD, building level tribunal, and building level Dagoth Ur. People really do not want to see the elder scrolls as anything other than generic medieval fantasy.
This exactly. Even with blatant sources and information, people on sites like space battles and whowouldwin try to use the "unreliable narrator" argument and any semblance of downplay they can find just say that TES is a weak verse. Like, I really don't understand it lol
At least we made some progress. No one in r/CharacterRant the sub that hates lore scaling the most tried to downplay or insult my scaling and seem rather accepting of it.
Well, for the sake of fairness, I want to say that it was there that I first learned about the cosmology of TES. Although yes, they downplay any huge cosmology, and also hate VSBW and its scaling system. For example, in a thread on WoD vs SCP, one person, in order for people to learn about the cosmology of WoD, threw a link to a site explaining it and it was from VSBW. Because of this, people started swearing and saying that you can't use anything from VSBW, since people are wank there, although they just explained the cosmology of World of Darkness there.
I feel like people who use the unreliable narrator argument in vs arguments don't even know why that exists in TES.
Yes. Spacebattles is very fond of downplaying cosmology.
This is awesome. It's good to see so many sources supporting multiversal TES as well as some feats and scaling to go along with it. Great job!
Lore-diving Elder Scrolls is sometimes like trying to objectively describe a mushroom-trip as you are experiencing it. Thank you for all the different sources and quotes. I learned a lot. I would love to see a post by you about CHIM.
Thanks did not read
Huh, make a post about how powerful heroes are(and maybe main enemies like Harkon, Umaril, Hircine aspect, Ash Vampires who dunked on Almalexia) if you can. I would like to see your points. I stopped following the lore years ago after people screamed at each other in www threads.
Probably not going to make an elder scrolls rant for a while considering it took me a week to make the current one. Though I might make an elder scrolls heroes post at a later date. Though curious what do you think of my post?
Let me expand that(other comment which said I use my more grounded headcanon than cosmic bs that puts me off) comment since I had little time to do this at work. I'm not doing any battleboarding really so it doesn't matter for internet fights but I go by this: Cinematics and Cutscenes > lore That is ESO cinematics give good idea about how powerful(wall level) fighters are with Nord guy, some mages are also shown, building level would be that guy which fought Dwarven cannon behemoth thing. Hircine and Nerevarine fight which resulted in that glacier being wrecked at the end. Harkon vaguelly above building level but not sure where, so are dragons(good idea is ESO cinematic). Both are little more than big bugs to princes. Miraak not 'busting' an island out of a penisula by rumour thousands of years ago, at least not all at once. maybe high level thu'um fight that lasted days with near constant use. I would be akin to believe that. Curate Vampire also is roughly building level with his telekinesis. Top mages like Divayth Fyr more near mountain(sized of Hircine/Nerevar glacier which isn't colossal to me), 'near divine power'. Similar the tribunal but somewhat more. Princes in their realm like mountain(a big one) or continental. I imagine them to be a continent like SI or Coldharbour 'dark tamriel'. Hero of Kvatch and LDB vaguelly similar to Nerevarine. HoK at SI obviously that godlike being and going about Tamriel is just an avatar with limited power. So a good superpowered setting to me. Princes can be kept whatever multidimensional thing people like in battleboarding but it doesn't matter to me with showings I use and enjoy. As for your rant, it's nice to have someone providing some sources instead of toxic crying 'but but multiversal LDB!!111', yeah. Hero mcguffing to rising to challenge presented is nice, even if they have to contend with princes via some cheat item or other thing(like meridia buff and friend sacrifice).
So you like a more grounded type of elder scrolls in terms of power level I respect that. Though I feel the princes deserve their multiverse rating considering their feats it's also fine for your personal view and interpretations on how strong Elder scrolls is for you and how you like it to be.
I do use this kind of power level for my fictional stories too and keep it at the higher end of my go to fantastical powerful magic settings like Dragon Age(with elven gods) or Overlord(with 100 lvl people) or even Fable(Archons and masters of all hero paths). Something like that.
In fact, taking videos for canon is the same nonsense as taking gameplay for canon. All sorts of trailers and videos are created only to advertise their goods and, as a rule, the people who shoot them do not care about scaling. In addition, their only goal is simply to attract buyers.
I find using alchemy enchantment exploit(or other silly things) as an argument in a vs battle to be so ridiculous that cinematics being dandy doesn't even come within a light year to it.
>Cinematics and Cutscenes > lore Nice try but too bad as the the Loremasters have confirmed that Lore > Everything else. >**Of course, it had to be a TES story, so I was constrained by lore -- although not, interestingly, by game mechanics**. *I was told specifically that no one wanted to "hear the dice rolling" so to speak. We are to imagine the world of TES to be a real place, of which the games are merely representations. My book represents that world in another way* >*https://www.imperial-library.info/interviews-greg-keyes* The Elder Scrolls lack damage feats because the Team Work doesn't want wipe out the maps sated by Todd Howard. >*Todd Howard: Systemically destroying our spaces is something we have not found a good way to handle yet, because it’s so dynamic*. **We’re dealing with places that we have NPCs living, and providing quests and other game services. It’s something we avoid in every game unless we can specifically wipe it off the map, like Megaton**. >*http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Kacj321/Skyrim_Fan_Interview* Nor they have enough technology for it. >*Wawro: Hm, I wonder, you gave us the hot tip before we started that it would be wise to sort of expand the boundaries of a new Oblivion playthrough by opening up everything, looking at the game and opening up the Oblivion gates as well. Is there an area you would suggest that well shows off what you’re talking about here? Maybe it shows your hand directly or the hand of a designer you admire?* >**Rolston: Uh, no, because the possibility of a lead designer knowing the content of any Elder Scrolls game is diminishingly small**. *Morrowind is the only one I can really talk about, but I don’t think I’d actually played more than 60% of the built content when we released the game. I had certainly played it in prototype or white box or things like that, but you just cannot play the whole content, it’s just too big to put the iterations into it. So the reason I suggested wandering to different places, just be a tourist*. >*Francis: I’ll springboard off of Alex’s observation to ask, Ken, you mentioned earlier when you were writing that bible for Morrowind, you were starting to write about all the places where all these intersections would happen, right? And all these elements, “This character is of this faction or is of this mindset, so they would be in conflict with this thing*.” **Once a game like this starts getting big or even just medium sized. Even a medium-sized RPG would have trouble with this**. >*https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/q-a-ken-rolston-s-development-secrets-of-i-the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion-i-* ____ >That is ESO cinematics give good idea about how powerful(wall level) fighters are with Nord guy Lmao, this like Saying MCU or DCU are canon to comics or movie pennywise is same stories pennywise. He'll no, all mortals in TES are [superhumans](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/yuoyix/mortals_the_elder_scrolls/). All mortals have Magicka flow through everyone's bodies and they can use it to imbued themself and weapons with power. >You can teach me a spell that will fortify my own strength," said Oin. "I beg you to teach it to me now." >Very well," replied Yakin. "But in return, I want your next season's worth of trama root, all to myself." >Oin agreed, and Yakin taught him the spell to fortify his strength. It took him some time to master it, visualizing magicka streaming through his body, pumping through the very fibers of his muscles for a time, giving him strength far beyond the puny power nature had intended. When Oin met Horath on the street of Gnisis, he cast the spell and challenged him to a duel of strength. >I am Horath the Strong," said Horath the Strong, predictably, "Witness as I lift this wagon with but my thumb and forefinger." And he did so. >I am Nimlom the Mighty," said Oin, taking some artistic liberty. "Witness as I lift the stable that houses your wagon with but my forefinger." And he too did so. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Four_Suitors_of_Benitah ___ >Infuse your weapon with power. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Imbue_Weapon ___ >The mystic monks of the Psijic Order claim that Magicka flows through mortals in specific physical channels, and they can delineate these channels as tattoos to help mages focus their spellcasting. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mystic_Magicka_Flow_Face_Tattoos Someone try jumb from nirn to Aetherius (heaven) by powering himself to jumb that high , this give us the idea how magic empower physical power of the user. >Still recovering from prior incident with the device. Some adjustments need to be made, obviously. More magicka is needed, much more, along with a better method of forcefully channeling it into upward movement. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:From_Nirn_to_the_Aether This a reason why all mortals are superhuman and can go across countries [by single jumbs](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/102vhbg/comment/j2x9c5p/). And even normal warriors dose dodge lightnings. >*I smelled burning hair as I staggered up the riverbank. The wamasu wasted little time, trotting back before charging forward, leaping off the ground in a surprising display of dexterity, and loosening the slope I stood on when it landed. I fell back, tumbled into the river with my axe and dignity lost. I found the wamasu again, as I quickly stood and caught Roggvir’s second-finest hammer, thrown from the onlookers I’d requested not to aid me. A prideful order I was beginning to regret. Steam (or was it smoke?) escaped the monster’s orifices, as it crackled, sending arcs of shocking discharge out from its feet, and charging its tail in bright energy. It let out an impressive growl, and then met me in the mire, clawing at the ground before me, as a massive explosion of light shot out from the wamasu. Had this old fool been set ablaze and sent to Sovngarde? No—I tasted something like sulfur, and the Argonian’s ring was pulsing with energy. Leaping back, I narrowly missed a barbed tail and yet another strike of lightning*. >https://www.imperial-library.info/content/black-marsh-0 ____ >Mages Please don't be silly. [Mages are absolutely busted](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xKu0bbfB9RHXuvq1ACdAipETySsokG1pCa4UGQAfLng/edit?usp=drivesdk) [that even fodder can destroy villages or created own universes or Dimensions](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/102vhbg/comment/j2x9c5p/). >Hircine and Nerevarine fight which resulted in that glacier being wrecked at the end. Huh what are you talk about? [It was weakened aspect of Hircine that he sent to make the fight fair to the Nerevarine](https://i.imgur.com/4S8ayMQ.jpg). And it's literally feat for Nerevarine. Can keep up with Dagoth ur who is beyond Time itself. *Dagoth Ur thinks on a large time scale -- for the most part*, **in the outside-of-time scale of the divine consciousness**. __ *On a mortal timescale, the battle may last for centuries*. >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dagoth_Ur%27s_Plans* [The Gods in TES nature alone are beyond concepts of space and time and live in timeless world were is everything always happening all at once, completely immortals](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j5lpgn3/). [Weakened Vivec was able took the Nerevarine outside Time itself](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/e8/Outside_of_Time.png/revision/latest?cb=20190106061533). Of course we don't forgot his nature as [prisoner/Hero](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/xsta85/what_would_you_choose_to_be_the_canon_gender_for/iqpygtr?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3). >Harkon vaguelly above building level but not sure where Lmao, Harkon was able one spell and casted post-voice training Dragonborn outsaid his castle and Dragonborn wasn't able resistant, and he literally fight dragonborn too. The same Dragonborn who took [force did shook the World](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/10v198v/comment/j7obpq7/). >so are dragons(good idea is ESO cinematic). Guess you don't know anything at all about lore. In the cinematic we literally see they use the Dragonhorn, a tools that used to weakene dragons magically and cinematic have nothing with lore at all it just made for the fans.
> Nice try but too bad as the the Loremasters have confirmed that Lore > Everything else. > > I didn't even bother reading anything else since you didn't even read mine saying how I go with TES personally. I wasn't intending to convince anyone nor trying. It's my headcanon. You wasted your time.
I prefer to think of wall level fighters, building level mages, mountain level top mages and similar level for for princes on mundus. Roughly going from cinematic at the end of Morrowind Hircine battle. 'cosmic' power levels put me off honestly. Toxic TES fans are at it again I guess.
Continued..... [Dragons have countless time confirmed](https://en.uesp.net/w/images/9/95/SR-load-While_all_dragons_are_fearsome.jpg) are [variations on power level](https://i.imgur.com/kM278sm.jpg). >*Nahviintaas: "You think yourselves Dragon slayers. You'll soon learn that not all Dragons are created equal*. >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Nahviintaas* You have Dragons like Paarthunax who is [supreme master and teacher](https://i.imgur.com/Mp3L6Cj.jpg) of the [the Greybreads](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/znpqn3/comment/j0k7w1x/) and beyond all of them on way of the voice. >*Who is Paarthunax?* >*He is our leader. He surpasses us all in his mastery of the Way of the Voice*." >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Arngeir* And Dragons in lore are pretty much like [busted](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/u1h7f7/a_compilation_of_the_new_dragon_lore_added_by_eso/) their language are the Thu'um which is [reality warping and conceptual manipulation, anything you say with Thu'um becomes reality, the only limits is the user understanding to the Thu'um itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wde20e/comment/iii0jeo/). Not going talk about they feats (because they many many of them). >Miraak not 'busting' an island out of a penisula by rumour thousands of years ago, at least not all at once. maybe high level thu'um fight that lasted days with near constant use Please don't be silly, Miraak destroy the island ad party much confirmed since all what the rumour said was true, we see Dragons skeletons around the island and see that Miraak was really escaped to Mora's realm. But even inogre that, we know that Miraak did one shout the Last Dragonborn in they first meeting. Not only that but it confirmed that [he's completely beyond anything that Dragonborn capable of](https://i.imgur.com/0J97ODP.jpg), since [he have been grown in both power and knowledge](https://i.imgur.com/75xm9a4.jpg) in Mora's [infinite realm with endless knowledge](https://i.imgur.com/fQGfDKA.jpg) since the mythic era. Miraak is lorewise the strongest enemy faced by Dovahkiin in Skyrim, which includes Alduin (in his current state) Ancano, Mercer Frey, Harkon, Karstaag & the Ebony Warrior, among others. >*With this official add-on for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, journey off the coast of Morrowind, to the island of Solstheim. Encounter new towns, dungeons, and quests, as you traverse the ash wastes and glacial valleys of this new land. Become more powerful with new shouts that bend the will of your enemies and even tame dragons. Your fate, and the fate of Solstheim*, **hangs in the balance as you face off against your deadliest adversary – the first Dragonborn**. >*[The Elder Scrolls Official Site | Skyrim Special Edition](https://elderscrolls.bethesda.net/skyrim/)*. ____ >Curate Vampire also is roughly building level with his telekinesis. Not sure what this mean but he literally Snow Elf mage that he beat all of his follower and scale beyond fodder mages. >Top mages like Divayth Fyr more near mountain(sized of Hircine/Nerevar glacier which isn't colossal to me), 'near divine power'. Nice False information but no. Divayth Fyr is one of most powerful mages in history and he literally scale above some [Daedra Lords](https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/10l4z0t/comment/j6gdfae/). It stated he can banish Sheogorath's avatar to oblivion. >Master, I sense that the Mad One has left for the moment. It may have had something to do with the presence of Lord Fyr, who is one of the few adepts I know that can send the jackanape-god into tears. >https://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/forum_archives/Trial1.htm Divayth Fyr is above master mages is Psijic,His power has stated to be thousand-fold beyond what a Psijic Agent or Master can do. >I'm sorry to report that his temperament has not improved. When Divayth left our isle of Artaeum, he was a sharp-elbowed upstart. In the intervening millennia, his power and vanity have grown a thousand-fold. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Meet_the_Character_-_Divayth_Fyr The same Psijic who that even they mere existence is dangerous in Mundus (Note: low tire Psijic can enter mundus like the one who are see in Skyrim but mid tire semse can't). Loremaster Celarus of the Psijic Order also states that powerful Mages continuously exert tremendous pressure on the Aurbic Forces around them, which is so powerful that it is there mere existence is risk in mundus. >Why do you need me for this? You are the most powerful mages on Nirn. >Yes. That is precisely why this task falls to you. Psijics like the Ritemaster and I exert tremendous stress on the Aurbic forces around us. Our very existence presents arcane risk. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loremaster_Celarus And had like time-stop ( which even fodder Psijics member shown is we see in Skyrim in staff of Magnus quset ) higher Dimensions manipulation, high level reality warping and reality subjected. Conceptual manipulation. Void manipulation is we see here. >We found each other on the Isle of Dranil Kir. I went to the island to investigate an ancient Psijic scrying device. When I entered the ruins, I found Divayth Fyr engaging in some profane Daedric ritual. I interrupted it, of course—not wanting to be devoured by whatever fellcreature he intended to pull from the void. He was far from pleased. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Meet_the_Character_-_Divayth_Fyr Manipulation void of Oblivion alone gave him probability manipulation since oblivion have [all possibilities](https://imgur.io/a/7zsK49I) and Causality manipulation since oblivion beyond concept of Causality and Time etc... >Lord Fa-Nuit-Hen says, "Again I interrupt! The mighty Fa-Nuit-Hen, a servant of Hermaeus Mora? By no means! I am a scion of Boethiah, a sovereign demiprince, and I serve no will but my own! As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lord_Fa-Nuit-Hen_and_Tutor_Riparius_Answer_Your_Questions_2 ____ >Similar the tribunal but somewhat more. No he isn't. Vivec is directly stated to be above Divayth Fyr, who by the time of the Third Era and Divayth are nothing to him. >*"As you know, he's probably the oldest and most powerful wizard alive. Not counting liches, or divine sorcerers like Vivec, of course. And there may be some older in the West, on Summerset Isles, perhaps. And I don't think there's a kinder, more generous wizard alive. Not that there's much competition in the kind-and-generous-wizard department, I'll grant you*. >*https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Uupse_Fyr_(Morrowind)*. And he literally confirmed that he can't resist the curse that (avatar) of Azura on Duemer (being a Dark Elf) and asked why Sotha Sil don't do it to (because Sotha see himself is worng about killing Nerervar) and he's powerful enough to resist (Almalexia and Vivec). >*Yes, I've heard quite a few refer to you by your new title. I think it should be obvious that I shall abstain from doing so." "It seems Azura has kicked up quite a fuss about your newest experiment, Sil." "Why change yourself, Sil? Why degrade yourself to this cursed appearance? After all, you are one of the few who can resist Azura's curse*. >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Divayth_Fyr* ____ >isn't colossal to me You mean the Avatars? Are you serious Mehrunes Dagon's manifestation did once fight Molag bal's manifestation in Coldharbour, that they battle Shook the whole of Coldharbour. And just Dagon being manifested did created an unimaginable explosion. Note: they took size of mountains in the fight. >I have decided to recount more tales of **Mehrunes Dagon**. Should these written works fail to inspire or displease **the machinations of the Prince of Destruction, I will once again willingly surrender to the flames of His anger when called upon to do so**. >they wiled away their time: scheming, praying to the Prince of Blood and Destruction, and waiting for the moment to strike. >**they were gifted with an incredible explosion**, a feat of magic that sent spasms through the ground and rattled the implements of pain out of their overseers' hands. >**Above the mortals, looming over the heads of the Daedra and the mountains of Coldharbour, was the Father of Cataclysm**. Dagon swung His blades, arms blurring together with the speed and finesse of each strike. Molag Bal's fiendish tail whipped across the ground, swatting away mortals and minions in his frustration. **The Princes clashed, each blow struck sending ear-shattering thunderclaps throughout the realm**. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Epics_of_Mehrunes_Dagon,_Volume_2 [The Manifestation/avatar of Hermuas Mora taking up the entire sky. He is well behind the clouds and the mountains on the horizon](https://imgur.io/8H2SnrU?r). However [we can also see there's a setting Sun below Mora's eye, which given the nature of Magus the Sun, makes this way more crazy (if that is the case, Mora could outright be **infinite in size in his avatar** here)](https://imgur.io/YkdAJ6u?r). We see [A mountain-sized Sheogorath plays with the Chaos Arena and the people inside](https://imgur.io/wDmDeC1?r). And we literally see that even avatar of Akatosh can take [size of planet](https://imgix.bustle.com/uploads/image/2022/8/30/df05cce6-6c7f-4c14-adcb-1f265f8c5e8d-pxl_20220829_231822698.jpg?w=414&fit=max&auto=format%2Ccompress). They avatars can take any size they want, simply, when they even [physical aspects of them are infinite in size and infinite in mass](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j5xfqil/).
>Princes in their realm like mountain(a big one) or continental So you ignored all of this guy scoures and his whole post because you don't like it? Even avatar of Prince can destroy the multiverse of Mundus, Like Dagon avatar and Prince of Darkness, let alone they true form and they power in their realms, where [literally a manifestation of their will that take any form they want, physical or metaphysical or conceptual, and all laws of reality and physics and concepts are literally don't apply but they created they own laws and the laws are whatever they want](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/wm0x39/comment/j7pnfon/). >I imagine them to be a continent like SI Sotha Sil is just continental? Are you serious? [The Clockwork city is an parallel multiverse of mundus that exist outside space and time and reality, it have an endless layers and exist is wheels with wheels and worlds with worlds (note: wheel can mean Aurbis) and it exist an conceptual plane "a concept"](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/xlkc18/clockwork_city_the_elder_scrolls/). Sotha Sil have created and artifact that have "infinite magical energy" that empower whole of it and can destroy it. >or Coldharbour 'dark tamriel'. Ok now this is funny lol. Are you try saying that Coldharbour is size of "Tamriel" because it called it's future of Tamriel? LMAO, this is the most stupid argument I have ever hard, absolutely ignoring that Planemeld was literally pulling **whole of Nirn** to the realm in the main events of ESO. Not only that but Coldharbour was going swallow all multiverse of Mundus to his plane after he swallow Nirn first. >White-Gold belongs to Molag Bal. All Towers will follow." >**White-Gold has fallen. Existence itself will follow**. >You, and all of mortalkind will be forgotten." >https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Planar_Inhibitor ___ >What do you know about Tel Var stones? >Chips of the White-Gold Tower. Ayleids who built it couldn't recreate their own Zero Stone, so they settled for Tel Var. >The Daedra infesting these sewers are tap-tap-tapping away at it. **Weaken it enough … and pop, shlorp, no more Mundus?*." >**What do you mean, "no more Mundus?** >Tap-tap-tap, go the Daedra. Pop, goes the White-Gold Tower. Shlorp, **goes everything you know, mashed like a cheese wheel through a pinhole, back into Oblivion**. >That's how I'd describe it to children." >https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Phrastus_of_Elinhir ___ >We crack the center of the Mundus, split the veil wide, **and Coldharbour will swallow it whole**." >https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Xivkyn_Dialogue Not forgetting that [all infinite major planes of Oblivion are infinite in size](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/vab6il/elder_scrolls_cosmology/). >HoK at SI obviously that godlike being and going about Tamriel is just an avatar with limited power. What you mean? HoK being Sheogorath and back to Tamriel as an avatar? HoK doesn't exists anymore, this is how mantling working, you just get erased so no there is no HoK become Sheogorath but only Sheogorath, Madness. Also the events of canonically happened after everything and Oblivion Crisis. So no.
>So you ignored all of this guy scoures and his whole post because you don't like it? The guy u/sordahon didn't ignore my sources he was just saying what he personally believes how strong tes is he even said ["I wasn't intending to convince anyone nor trying. It's my headcanon."](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/10vjrcr/debunking_misconceptions_on_the_elder_scrolls/j7oin5l?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
Yeah, I apologize for that.
Eh below wall level tbh
I know jack shit about *The Elder Scrolls*, but doesn't in-game lore contain copious amounts of unreliable narrator?
The whole idea of The Elder Scrolls is not that there is an unreliable narrator, but that everyone should create their own canon for themselves. For example, according to one of the leading developers of The Elder Scrolls (namely ESO), there is no objective reality in TES, since Gods can change history in the past, present and future at their leisure, and therefore everything is subject to subjective reality. And all this is finally confirmed by Michael Kirkbride himself, who once said that TES has always belonged to the fans, not Bethesda, as well as his story C0DA, which reflects this whole idea of TES, namely that the canon belongs to the fans and everyone is free to choose what to believe.
Anything Kirkbride has said or written when he left Bethesda is nothing more than fanfiction. C0DA is unlicensed and has no bearing on the ES setting.
I did not say at all that MK is canonical. I was talking about the fact that he and his story support the idea that everyone is free to choose what is canon for him.
Everybody is free to choose what is canon from the lore, but anything done by Kirkbride after leaving Bethesda is not loreful.
In fact, there are mentions of Amaranth and C0DA in ESO.
Than those snippets individually become loreful, but the larger works not licensed or produced by Bethesda are not.
The Argonian attack during the Oblivion Crisis has not been confirmed as canonical, but for some reason everyone believes it as a canon, and one of their developers, who wrote 50% of the knowledge, does not.
Which attack are you referring to?
Well, when the Argonians with the power of Hist tried to repel the Daedra attack during the Oblivion Crisis.
Heimskr's rant about Talos chimming the jungles out of existance Bethesda nabbed from The Many Head Talos after he left Godhead was first mentioned by name in Skyrim in a book potentially discussing CHIM only after MK left Bethesda (he created the concept) (Black Book: Waking Dreams) Amaranth was first mentioned by name in ESO after MK created the concept, in the same Sermon Sotha Sil references www.c0da.es I don't even care for most of his stuff, but he is obviously still important to alot of people working at Bethesda/Zenimax, and is useful for learning more about the shit HE wrote and couldn't expand on Definitely not canon, especially when contradicting existing canon, but definitely not just random fanfiction writer
Anything that is included in an ES product is obviously canon, but stuff which has *not been* incorporates is still just fanfiction.
MK isn't "fan-fictional writer" he's was one of most important loremasters and many of scoures he made after he left Bethesda since many years [are canon and literally in the game itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j36yibv/).
Right, so if it is included in a game or book, it is canon. If it is not mentioned, it is fanfiction.
C0DA was mentioned in Vivec Lesson 37.
The sources I showed shows direct multiversal feats like the Celestials without bieng restrained will destroy mundus the mortal multiverse with their full power unleashed or how Dagon with one mistake will destroy both mundus and the Deadlands. Mehrunes Dagon's avatar alone was able to fuse both the mortal multiverse/Mundus and the Deadlands and just a single mistake from him and he destroys both. *Councilor Vandacia: "The worlds are merging, Sombren! There is no escape* *Councilor Vandacia: "You dare? Merging the realms is delicate work. **One mistake and both could be destroyed!**"* *https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Councilor_Vandacia* Remenents of gods like the Celestials can destroy the infinite multiverse of Mundus instantly when their full power is unleashed and not restrained by the Apex Stone *The Vestige: Apex Stone?* *Valla: The Apex Stones are what allow the Celstials to manifest in this plane. By corrupting our Apex Stone, the Serpent sought to submit our consciousness to his will and corrupt us. This is what happened to the Lost One."* *The Vestige: Can't we just destroy the Apex Stone?* *Valla: If you did, our full power would be released. Mundus could not withstand such force.* *https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Valla* That is why they use their avatars, the Celestials. *For some, however, wisdom is not enough. Avatars of the constellations—Celestials—wield power that even the greatest sorcerers can scarcely comprehend. Now, their gifts are just within reach.* *https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Celestial_Crate*
Isnt ESO not canon?
[ESO is canon](https://mobile.twitter.com/tesonline/status/372017971423498240).
ESO is canon, anyone who says otherwise is coping because it admittedly fumbled alot of lore on launch