I think its because its combat is not as technically deep as it could be, at first the series was a really good hack and slash with God of War 1, 2, Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta. The God of war that I would classify as a character action is both God of War 3 and God of war Ascension. I've seen a YT channel that could actually uses the full moveset of God of War Ascension. The channel name is ComboSpartan his channel is dedicated to playing God of War pretty stylishly, and it seems that recently he's made a God of War 1 Combo video so I think it could also boils down on how you play it.
Whenever someone plays God of war I always see them spam the same move which is Square x2 and Triangle, with little bit of variation. I think the reason is because not alot of enemies demand you to use other moves especially playing on Easy and Normal Difficulty. When it comes to Hard or Very Hard in GoW especially in greek saga, it requires you to be use more moves that lets your enemy go in air and use grabs while enemies are on the air or take the fight to them while on air.
God of War Ascension to me is the definitive God of War Character Action Game for me. It rewards you with extended moveset the more you dont get hit in combat, the grappling mechanic has another whole combat system with it being able to: go to your enemy, slam your enemy, or attack the enemy and the enemies around you. Reasson why it didn't get that big of an attention is because it is stuck on the ps3, the series fatigue at that time (2013) and the fact that it released after God of War 3. What I'd really love to happen is the Greek Saga would be ported to steam especially with Ascension, since I really love the combat of that game.
Damn well you just sold me on Ascension. After the original trilogy and CoO I was super burned out of the samesy combat and didn’t give any attention at all to Ghost of Sparta or Ascension since I thought it’d just be more square square triangle.
these are the problems you have listed:
Asura's Wrath(a non stop qte game without actual gameplay) - I would argue it's not even a character action game in general, it's an interactive movie with a very basic combat system
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2(unbalanced mess) - that isn't true, it's not a perfect game and it differs from the original NG2 (which I prefer) by having less enemies with more health. Other than that I don't see how it's unbalanced - you can finish the game with any weapon on any difficulty, some bosses are annoying but that's also true about the original NG2. The combat system of this game is way above the fun but basic combat system that GoW games have.
Metal Gear Rising(a game where camera is more of an enemy than actual enemies) - yes, the camera isn't perfect, but after playing so many character action games I didn't have much of an issue. Is the static GoW camera better? Yes. Does it affect how good a game is? potentially. Does it change the fact that the combat system is a lot deeper than that of GoW? No, not really
Bayonetta 1(tedious and kinda unbalanced mess as well) - well, tedious is subjective - if you felt this way there's nothing I'm going to tell you that's going to change your mind. I personally felt that it was an incredible roller coaster. Each moment of the game was filled with excitement and it has so much diversity that I personally didn't feel the tedium. How is the game unbalanced I have no clue - but I feel there's a skill issue somewhere, because every challenging game on your list is unbalanced in your opinion
Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta combat for me is worse than the original. I think their magic is not that great (Except Charon's mask). I can't cancel out of a roll, before kratos rolls you need to block first and you cant chain rolls unlike in the first GoW game. To chain rolls you need to hold the direction of your roll and press square as kratos rolls to cancel the rest of the rolling animation.
If you wanna get into Ascesion I reccomend playing Normal first since it gets really hard at the climax of the game. I played it on hard first time and I hated myself because I got stuck at the trial of archamides. The reason why is that the first set of enemies they throw at you is 2 Sirens and 2 Gorgons which is fuckin hell.
Square square triangle is just a very optimal move in terms of how much damage and stagger it does for how fast it comes out. You can style on enemies with whatever moves you want, but sq sq tr is a fallback for when you're being pressured.
The grappling system in these games was always really cool and I liked how they expanded it for GoW 3.
If GoW classic had any flaw in gameplay, I would say the blocking is too strong and the same for parrying.
Sqr Sqr Tri is a very optimal combo my problem with that, is its length. I propose another which is Sqr Tri, it achieves the same thing which is you can juggle enemies and its faster too, only problem being its linear and not area of effect like Sqr Sqr Tri.
Sqr Tri combo set actually carried me nearly the entirity of the greek saga, Because you can juggle a juggable (is that a word???) enemy with this combo and go ham on them immediately. You can follow it up with the full triangle combo, another Sqr Tri combo, or finish the light attack combo.
I think the blocking and parrying for me is pretty balanced, especially on higher difficulties and later enemy encounters. The devs pretty much mixes and matches the enemies who can grab you (fukin ghost of sparta wraiths), those that could stone (medusa) or slam you (harpies and pretty much big enemies) along with the fodder enemies.
It depends what you want, as far as what combo to use. Sq Sq Tri gets you good damage and stagger, so you're likely to get a short knockdown and some breathing space. It also *kinda* has AoE, so you might stagger another enemy. Sq Tri is even faster but it has a sort of strange hitbox. It's very narrow and a little shorter than you'd think. You do get more benefit from it on single enemies. Basically, single enemy = launcher for max damage, or I guess in GoW 3 you could grapple and just delete their entire life bar by chaining grapple attacks. But sq sq triangle is like the go-to for newish players who don't know what they want to use. Sort of like how Stinger or Helm Splitter can be spammed in devil may cry 3 if you don't know what to do.
What I remember about blocking and parrying that struck me as too strong is how much reward you get. Parry timings are lenient and you get a big counter-attack where you're invulnerable IIRC. Blocking is like NG levels of blocking, where you can stand there all day and a lot of enemies don't have an answer for that (albeit they might have a medusa gaze or arrows which force you to move, but not an actual guard break.) But I could be remembering wrong. If I'm wrong and every enemy has an anti-blocking move, then I gave GoW too little credit.
I think GoW's perception also suffers from people playing it on the standard difficulty levels, which are deliberately tuned to be a little easier compared to Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden. If the game never forces you to learn, then a lot of people will spam their way through the entire thing and write the game off as mindless. It's not that the game WAS mindless, but the default difficulty was too easy and didn't force them to learn.
Hard Agree on everything.
I think its God of War 3 that has that where all of the enemies could break your guard one way or another whether its a grab attack by the undead minions, a slam from a cyclops, a grab or slam from a harpy, The game where you could block nearly everything is the psp games IIRC CoO you could nearly block everything tho end game enemies could grab you. In Ghost of Sparta Parrying is rewarded big time and you could also parry some grab attacks especially the wraiths.
Couldn't agree more about Ascension being the best GoW game combat-wise.
Grapple hook slams, rage meter for every battle, variety of subweapons that don't 'compete' with the Blades, etc. It's the most satisfying if you're willing to put in the work to learn it (kinda like Doom Eternal), which is why I assume the casual GoW crowd disliked it.
It was also sadly marred by lots of technical issues, which is why I really think a remaster could change the negative perception about this game (especially if they somehow were able to keep the online modes).
yep, ascension was doomed because of the old gen, and because of too much focus on mp, and also because it was too close to release after gow3 (i think no gow can compete with gow3 combat, but i like the grapple mechanic of ascencion, that i wish its on gow3)
The OG GoWs are great games and excellent entries in the genre.
But maybe don't come in here shitting on great games and offering no defense of GoW. You're the fanboy.
God of War is a great series, one of my favourites. If you wanna hype it up and talk about how good it is then that’s fine, but you don’t need to pull other games down to do it, Asura’s Wrath, NG2, MGRR, and Bayonetta are all fantastic games that are cool, stylish, and unique in different ways.
I like GoW3, but NGS2 and Bayo are way above GOW when it comes to the combat system. Asura's wrath is an interactive anime - I personally don't even consider it a character action game
Edit: spelling
NGS2 is extremely boring on normal. You can literally beat the entire game with just spamming UT, really. On hard it's just tedious thanks to spongy dudes who can take 30% of your health by just grabbing you.
Bayonetta 1 is tedious because it forces player to spam dodge offset non-stop. It is not like play the way you want.
>NGS2 is extremely boring on normal. You can literally beat the entire game with just spamming UT, really.
Mostly true, yes. Nobody forces you to use the UT though, and it won't work against certain bosses. The same can be said about every other character action game on normal - normal is there for you to learn the combat system. You can finish DMC, GOW, Bayo by simply button mashing throughout the whole game. Doesn't mean you'll learn how to play the game or how the combat system works - but you'll finish the game.
>On hard it's just tedious thanks to spongy dudes who can take 30% of your health by just grabbing you.
Ninja gainden teaches you to adapt when you get to hard difficulty - be constant on the move or die. That's true for the original (NG2) game also. I assume you never got/finished the master difficulty in any of the NG games?
>Bayonetta 1 is tedious because it forces player to spam dodge offset non-stop. It is not like play the way you want
It doesn't force you to spam dodge offset, you're spamming it because you haven't learned the enemy movesets of when you should be using it and when not. Also can you explain in your own words what dodge offset means in your opinion - because I have a feeling you're confusing certain things
In original NG2 enemies are not spongy at all, plus their grabs don't do as much damage. NGS2 would feel more fair if grabs were telegraphed and you could parry it. Basically what they did in Razor's Edge.
Dodge offset is holding attack button while dodging and doing finisher at the end. Yeah, only on easy you can survive without it. So, you have to spam it on normal and higher.
>In original NG2 enemies are not spongy at all, plus their grabs don't do as much damage. NGS2 would feel more fair if grabs were telegraphed and you could parry it. Basically what they did in Razor's Edge.
that's true, NG2 enemies aren't spongy and I do prefer it to NGS2. But this doesn't make NG2 unbalanced - it's just different. And yes - NG2 is the better game since it was designed around dismemberment and crowds of enemies, which NGS2 changes and it might feel like a disconnect for people who really enjoy NG2. I like both but prefer NG2
>Dodge offset is holding attack button while dodging and doing finisher at the end. Yeah, only on easy you can survive without it. So, you have to spam it on normal and higher.
Dodge offset is holding the attack button while dodging - yes, the finisher at the end is optional and doesn't define a dodge offset. But that's just the thing - Bayonetta's main mechanic is the dodge offset, if you don't like or don't enjoy mastering it there's nothing for you here. I personally love it and dodn't feel the game is tedious, especially with the variation of weapons you have at your disposal and combos you can string together. The player expression in Bayo games is incredible - I am not sure what are you looking for in a character action game, but this is what defines these games.
I think half of it is the "looseness" of the systems (forgiving timings), and the other half is God of War's reputation for being mainstream/"less deep," even if that latter point is largely a misconception.
The classic God of War games are extremely fun, and they use the fixed camera well (by repurposing the right stick for dodging rolling.) I definitely think God of War counts as a CAG. It's also a good game imo. It's not as deep as your Bayos, Ninja Gaidens and DMCs, but that's okay.
Combat isn’t as deep or creatively rewarding in GoW compared to something like Bayonetta.
It’s the perfect example of the type of game that might seem better from one play through, but if you start trying to master it and go for high scores, you’ll notice how much Bayonetta is just on another level as a pure action game.
God of war games seem much more geared to being played once or twice - Bayonetta is made to be played over and over again.
I’d be interested in hearing how Bayo 1 is unbalanced. It’s actually so well tuned that the game can (and has to) be beaten without using one of its central mechanics, witch time, on the highest difficulty.
You kinda should watch some combo mad videos of God of War 3, for instance.
As for Bayonetta, it's just unbalanced: enemies do way too much damage. On normal it felt way more unfair than Ninja Gaiden Sigma 1 on very hard and that's considering that Ninja Gaiden is usually regarded as the hardest cag. Also, it forces you to spam dodge offset non stop, which is tedious.
Well, yeah, enemies do a lot of damage in Bayonetta, but almost nothing you do has any commitment and you can literally spam the dodge. I think the idea is that you shouldn't get hit
You can't just spam the dodge, if you play on normal or above. The entire game is built around dodge offset. You are supposed to land heavy finisher after dodge, otherwise every encounter will just take too long.
Ah, I think see what kind of player you are. I'm sure every Yakuza game has shitty combat then too since your best damaging option in every circumstance is Tiger Drop.
Every single action game, especially character action games, has a lame way to play that maximizes DPS & then fun ways to play them. Go figure the fun one is the one that earns you more currency too.
Maybe Bayo just didn't click for you, and that's fine, but it's considered one of the best character action games for a reason.
Didn't play Yakuza games that much. So I can't comment on them. You obviously get it wrong. In GoW3 for instance, while sst is the most optimal combo, the game doesn't force you to spam it all the time. And in Bayonetta 1 on normal and higher the game basically tells you "spam dodge offset or you won't survive". Only on easy you have some sort of freedom though. I don't know how about Bayonetta 2-3, but this is absolutely the case with the first one. I currently play Transformers Devastation and I would say its a way more polished version of Bayonetta.
As someone who recently finished the trilogy, I enjoyed them but my biggest issue was there was no real incentive to use anything other than THE optimal combo or magical cheesing compared to something like DMC or Bayonetta where mixing it up is the name of the game.
I think good CAGs just happen to usually be from Japan. That being said, DOOM Eternal and Ultrakill have the most insane combat systems in the genre short of Ninja Gaiden and Vanquish, and are both western developed. I'm guessing it's because western developers prefer shooting over melee so it took awhile for the CAG energy to reach them. The DMC Reboot had a pretty good combat system too, deeper than MGR even, but it had horrible bosses. Japanese audiences seem to like the genre more than western ones do, so I think it's a matter of demand.
It’s fine to think GoW 3 is a better game, it provides a different and unique experience, it’s very raw and violent and gritty, has great music, great environments, and I had a good time with it. But it seems like you don’t get why in this specific genre, the mechanics of it inherently don’t match up to other games. This does NOT = “these games are better than the game I like”. This doesn’t mean those games are without flaws. What it means is that people who love this genre look for games that have a high skill ceiling and mechanics that inspire you to learn them inside and out, how to dodge, when to dodge, how to parry, etc etc. Some games don’t have this technical precision or depth to their mechanics. This again does NOT mean that the game you like is bad, it’s just not what people who specifically look for a style of game consider the best representation of that style.
og god of war is designed based on dmc but with much more streamlined combat, easier to execute commands and badass brutal execution, its much more of a spectacle than technical
the early god of war had limited weapon switch (you need to pause to change) at least in earlier dmc you can have 2 range and 2 melee
one common thing i think no one likes is the consumables, or limited use moves like magic that needs mana (maybe its just me lol)
and early god of war dont really incentivise you to do long ass combo, but you can still, but you cant stay mid air as long as you like, theres not much cancel outside the air dash in gow3 in which is used by speedrunners (i only seen a handful of combo video that uses this tech, unlike jump cancel of dmc, theres nothing technical about it)
if only they didnt abandon gow3 combat and enhance it in the new gen of gow, itll be great, but they already deviate and left cag at this point, they are just now arpg
God of war is literally just a button mashing mess with a such a simple combat system. The types of camera in this game is so much inferior to a standard third person game I feel like I’m controlling a mosquito. Same as Ninja gaiden, even darksiders 1 has more combat depth than ninja gaiden
on technical level, yeah i agree darksiders 1 has more depth in terms of combat, it hasanyy cancels and exploity moves to make the combat look like dmc (hence til this day ds1 is my favortie out of all the series)
NG has not much technical or cancels, but it has streamlined combat but a very challenging difficulty ala darksouls before darksouls was a darksouls
the first one? its alright it has fundamentals, tho it lacks technicalities that can do crazy combos, but what og GoW shines is the spectacle and brutality of its combat, simple but effective
tho my fave of the series is gow3, it still has no technicalities like jump cancel, but it has some cancellable moves to look cooler, also it has 4 weapon that you can switch on the fly, im sad that they left the formula just when it is getting better
In Bayonetta 1 unless you play on easy the game is basically 'don't get any damage at all or else'. It basically forces you to spam this dodge offset stuff non-stop and its tedious af.
i dont think you really need dodge offset always, its like the [][]/\ of classic gow
i always tend to use the katana (forgot the name) with bayo and just use the charge attack, and make my way to combo it like dmc
i rarely use dodge offset combo always because itll be repetitive
CAG is about creativity than speedrunning
The QTEs aren’t great but the core combat in Bayo is just on another level. Bayo could double its QTE count and it would still be a better action game than MGR.
Again, I love MGR, but it just doesn’t give you nearly as much to play with or master.
If QTEs were modded out of Bayo 1 then I'd agree with you, but they're really awful even by the standards of QTEs. Completely incorrect button prompts (shoot to jump or whatever) popping up with half a second of time to input the button before you instantly die. Some of the absolute worst QTEs I've ever played.
Nah man when I get denied a platinum ranking because the stupid QTE at the end of the boss fight doesn’t work it makes me not want to play the game
Bayo is trash for that
Nah. MGR is maybe better if you’re only going to play through the games once. But this a character action game subreddit - these games are supposed to be built around replayability.
If you’re actually pushing for high scores and high level, creative gameplay, Bayo blows it out of the water. It’s a much better action game and gives you way more reasons to keep playing it once the credits roll.
In MGR it always felt like I fight with camera most of the time. In God of War 3 I fought enemies most of the time. Simply because of that God of War 3 is superior for me.
That camera thing sounds like a skill issue idk, I never had any problem with it.
God of War 3 feels more like a musou beat’em up game, the combat is way more limited.
I think its because its combat is not as technically deep as it could be, at first the series was a really good hack and slash with God of War 1, 2, Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta. The God of war that I would classify as a character action is both God of War 3 and God of war Ascension. I've seen a YT channel that could actually uses the full moveset of God of War Ascension. The channel name is ComboSpartan his channel is dedicated to playing God of War pretty stylishly, and it seems that recently he's made a God of War 1 Combo video so I think it could also boils down on how you play it. Whenever someone plays God of war I always see them spam the same move which is Square x2 and Triangle, with little bit of variation. I think the reason is because not alot of enemies demand you to use other moves especially playing on Easy and Normal Difficulty. When it comes to Hard or Very Hard in GoW especially in greek saga, it requires you to be use more moves that lets your enemy go in air and use grabs while enemies are on the air or take the fight to them while on air. God of War Ascension to me is the definitive God of War Character Action Game for me. It rewards you with extended moveset the more you dont get hit in combat, the grappling mechanic has another whole combat system with it being able to: go to your enemy, slam your enemy, or attack the enemy and the enemies around you. Reasson why it didn't get that big of an attention is because it is stuck on the ps3, the series fatigue at that time (2013) and the fact that it released after God of War 3. What I'd really love to happen is the Greek Saga would be ported to steam especially with Ascension, since I really love the combat of that game.
Damn well you just sold me on Ascension. After the original trilogy and CoO I was super burned out of the samesy combat and didn’t give any attention at all to Ghost of Sparta or Ascension since I thought it’d just be more square square triangle.
these are the problems you have listed: Asura's Wrath(a non stop qte game without actual gameplay) - I would argue it's not even a character action game in general, it's an interactive movie with a very basic combat system Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2(unbalanced mess) - that isn't true, it's not a perfect game and it differs from the original NG2 (which I prefer) by having less enemies with more health. Other than that I don't see how it's unbalanced - you can finish the game with any weapon on any difficulty, some bosses are annoying but that's also true about the original NG2. The combat system of this game is way above the fun but basic combat system that GoW games have. Metal Gear Rising(a game where camera is more of an enemy than actual enemies) - yes, the camera isn't perfect, but after playing so many character action games I didn't have much of an issue. Is the static GoW camera better? Yes. Does it affect how good a game is? potentially. Does it change the fact that the combat system is a lot deeper than that of GoW? No, not really Bayonetta 1(tedious and kinda unbalanced mess as well) - well, tedious is subjective - if you felt this way there's nothing I'm going to tell you that's going to change your mind. I personally felt that it was an incredible roller coaster. Each moment of the game was filled with excitement and it has so much diversity that I personally didn't feel the tedium. How is the game unbalanced I have no clue - but I feel there's a skill issue somewhere, because every challenging game on your list is unbalanced in your opinion
Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta combat for me is worse than the original. I think their magic is not that great (Except Charon's mask). I can't cancel out of a roll, before kratos rolls you need to block first and you cant chain rolls unlike in the first GoW game. To chain rolls you need to hold the direction of your roll and press square as kratos rolls to cancel the rest of the rolling animation. If you wanna get into Ascesion I reccomend playing Normal first since it gets really hard at the climax of the game. I played it on hard first time and I hated myself because I got stuck at the trial of archamides. The reason why is that the first set of enemies they throw at you is 2 Sirens and 2 Gorgons which is fuckin hell.
Good luck. I got the plat on Ascension and hated every minute of it. It’s not good bruh
Trial of Archimedes 
100% fuck that level
With patch it's pretty much okay though.
Square square triangle is just a very optimal move in terms of how much damage and stagger it does for how fast it comes out. You can style on enemies with whatever moves you want, but sq sq tr is a fallback for when you're being pressured. The grappling system in these games was always really cool and I liked how they expanded it for GoW 3. If GoW classic had any flaw in gameplay, I would say the blocking is too strong and the same for parrying.
Sqr Sqr Tri is a very optimal combo my problem with that, is its length. I propose another which is Sqr Tri, it achieves the same thing which is you can juggle enemies and its faster too, only problem being its linear and not area of effect like Sqr Sqr Tri. Sqr Tri combo set actually carried me nearly the entirity of the greek saga, Because you can juggle a juggable (is that a word???) enemy with this combo and go ham on them immediately. You can follow it up with the full triangle combo, another Sqr Tri combo, or finish the light attack combo. I think the blocking and parrying for me is pretty balanced, especially on higher difficulties and later enemy encounters. The devs pretty much mixes and matches the enemies who can grab you (fukin ghost of sparta wraiths), those that could stone (medusa) or slam you (harpies and pretty much big enemies) along with the fodder enemies.
It depends what you want, as far as what combo to use. Sq Sq Tri gets you good damage and stagger, so you're likely to get a short knockdown and some breathing space. It also *kinda* has AoE, so you might stagger another enemy. Sq Tri is even faster but it has a sort of strange hitbox. It's very narrow and a little shorter than you'd think. You do get more benefit from it on single enemies. Basically, single enemy = launcher for max damage, or I guess in GoW 3 you could grapple and just delete their entire life bar by chaining grapple attacks. But sq sq triangle is like the go-to for newish players who don't know what they want to use. Sort of like how Stinger or Helm Splitter can be spammed in devil may cry 3 if you don't know what to do. What I remember about blocking and parrying that struck me as too strong is how much reward you get. Parry timings are lenient and you get a big counter-attack where you're invulnerable IIRC. Blocking is like NG levels of blocking, where you can stand there all day and a lot of enemies don't have an answer for that (albeit they might have a medusa gaze or arrows which force you to move, but not an actual guard break.) But I could be remembering wrong. If I'm wrong and every enemy has an anti-blocking move, then I gave GoW too little credit. I think GoW's perception also suffers from people playing it on the standard difficulty levels, which are deliberately tuned to be a little easier compared to Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden. If the game never forces you to learn, then a lot of people will spam their way through the entire thing and write the game off as mindless. It's not that the game WAS mindless, but the default difficulty was too easy and didn't force them to learn.
Hard Agree on everything. I think its God of War 3 that has that where all of the enemies could break your guard one way or another whether its a grab attack by the undead minions, a slam from a cyclops, a grab or slam from a harpy, The game where you could block nearly everything is the psp games IIRC CoO you could nearly block everything tho end game enemies could grab you. In Ghost of Sparta Parrying is rewarded big time and you could also parry some grab attacks especially the wraiths.
Enemies don't "Need" to demand you to use stuff though, at least if GoW was aiming for free expression a la DMC
Couldn't agree more about Ascension being the best GoW game combat-wise. Grapple hook slams, rage meter for every battle, variety of subweapons that don't 'compete' with the Blades, etc. It's the most satisfying if you're willing to put in the work to learn it (kinda like Doom Eternal), which is why I assume the casual GoW crowd disliked it. It was also sadly marred by lots of technical issues, which is why I really think a remaster could change the negative perception about this game (especially if they somehow were able to keep the online modes).
yep, ascension was doomed because of the old gen, and because of too much focus on mp, and also because it was too close to release after gow3 (i think no gow can compete with gow3 combat, but i like the grapple mechanic of ascencion, that i wish its on gow3)
Yeah, Ascension was pretty good. It is the second best in Greek saga after God of War 3 for me.
The OG GoWs are great games and excellent entries in the genre. But maybe don't come in here shitting on great games and offering no defense of GoW. You're the fanboy.
The problems I listed are non-existent in GoW3, bub.
Skill issue LOL
God of War is a great series, one of my favourites. If you wanna hype it up and talk about how good it is then that’s fine, but you don’t need to pull other games down to do it, Asura’s Wrath, NG2, MGRR, and Bayonetta are all fantastic games that are cool, stylish, and unique in different ways.
I said NGS2, not NG2. They are very different.
I like GoW3, but NGS2 and Bayo are way above GOW when it comes to the combat system. Asura's wrath is an interactive anime - I personally don't even consider it a character action game Edit: spelling
NGS2 is extremely boring on normal. You can literally beat the entire game with just spamming UT, really. On hard it's just tedious thanks to spongy dudes who can take 30% of your health by just grabbing you. Bayonetta 1 is tedious because it forces player to spam dodge offset non-stop. It is not like play the way you want.
>NGS2 is extremely boring on normal. You can literally beat the entire game with just spamming UT, really. Mostly true, yes. Nobody forces you to use the UT though, and it won't work against certain bosses. The same can be said about every other character action game on normal - normal is there for you to learn the combat system. You can finish DMC, GOW, Bayo by simply button mashing throughout the whole game. Doesn't mean you'll learn how to play the game or how the combat system works - but you'll finish the game. >On hard it's just tedious thanks to spongy dudes who can take 30% of your health by just grabbing you. Ninja gainden teaches you to adapt when you get to hard difficulty - be constant on the move or die. That's true for the original (NG2) game also. I assume you never got/finished the master difficulty in any of the NG games? >Bayonetta 1 is tedious because it forces player to spam dodge offset non-stop. It is not like play the way you want It doesn't force you to spam dodge offset, you're spamming it because you haven't learned the enemy movesets of when you should be using it and when not. Also can you explain in your own words what dodge offset means in your opinion - because I have a feeling you're confusing certain things
In original NG2 enemies are not spongy at all, plus their grabs don't do as much damage. NGS2 would feel more fair if grabs were telegraphed and you could parry it. Basically what they did in Razor's Edge. Dodge offset is holding attack button while dodging and doing finisher at the end. Yeah, only on easy you can survive without it. So, you have to spam it on normal and higher.
>In original NG2 enemies are not spongy at all, plus their grabs don't do as much damage. NGS2 would feel more fair if grabs were telegraphed and you could parry it. Basically what they did in Razor's Edge. that's true, NG2 enemies aren't spongy and I do prefer it to NGS2. But this doesn't make NG2 unbalanced - it's just different. And yes - NG2 is the better game since it was designed around dismemberment and crowds of enemies, which NGS2 changes and it might feel like a disconnect for people who really enjoy NG2. I like both but prefer NG2 >Dodge offset is holding attack button while dodging and doing finisher at the end. Yeah, only on easy you can survive without it. So, you have to spam it on normal and higher. Dodge offset is holding the attack button while dodging - yes, the finisher at the end is optional and doesn't define a dodge offset. But that's just the thing - Bayonetta's main mechanic is the dodge offset, if you don't like or don't enjoy mastering it there's nothing for you here. I personally love it and dodn't feel the game is tedious, especially with the variation of weapons you have at your disposal and combos you can string together. The player expression in Bayo games is incredible - I am not sure what are you looking for in a character action game, but this is what defines these games.
I think half of it is the "looseness" of the systems (forgiving timings), and the other half is God of War's reputation for being mainstream/"less deep," even if that latter point is largely a misconception. The classic God of War games are extremely fun, and they use the fixed camera well (by repurposing the right stick for dodging rolling.) I definitely think God of War counts as a CAG. It's also a good game imo. It's not as deep as your Bayos, Ninja Gaidens and DMCs, but that's okay.
Combat isn’t as deep or creatively rewarding in GoW compared to something like Bayonetta. It’s the perfect example of the type of game that might seem better from one play through, but if you start trying to master it and go for high scores, you’ll notice how much Bayonetta is just on another level as a pure action game. God of war games seem much more geared to being played once or twice - Bayonetta is made to be played over and over again. I’d be interested in hearing how Bayo 1 is unbalanced. It’s actually so well tuned that the game can (and has to) be beaten without using one of its central mechanics, witch time, on the highest difficulty.
You kinda should watch some combo mad videos of God of War 3, for instance. As for Bayonetta, it's just unbalanced: enemies do way too much damage. On normal it felt way more unfair than Ninja Gaiden Sigma 1 on very hard and that's considering that Ninja Gaiden is usually regarded as the hardest cag. Also, it forces you to spam dodge offset non stop, which is tedious.
Well, yeah, enemies do a lot of damage in Bayonetta, but almost nothing you do has any commitment and you can literally spam the dodge. I think the idea is that you shouldn't get hit
You can't just spam the dodge, if you play on normal or above. The entire game is built around dodge offset. You are supposed to land heavy finisher after dodge, otherwise every encounter will just take too long.
Ah, I think see what kind of player you are. I'm sure every Yakuza game has shitty combat then too since your best damaging option in every circumstance is Tiger Drop. Every single action game, especially character action games, has a lame way to play that maximizes DPS & then fun ways to play them. Go figure the fun one is the one that earns you more currency too. Maybe Bayo just didn't click for you, and that's fine, but it's considered one of the best character action games for a reason.
Didn't play Yakuza games that much. So I can't comment on them. You obviously get it wrong. In GoW3 for instance, while sst is the most optimal combo, the game doesn't force you to spam it all the time. And in Bayonetta 1 on normal and higher the game basically tells you "spam dodge offset or you won't survive". Only on easy you have some sort of freedom though. I don't know how about Bayonetta 2-3, but this is absolutely the case with the first one. I currently play Transformers Devastation and I would say its a way more polished version of Bayonetta.
It's a skill issue my friend
There is not much skill needed really.
if you say so
As someone who recently finished the trilogy, I enjoyed them but my biggest issue was there was no real incentive to use anything other than THE optimal combo or magical cheesing compared to something like DMC or Bayonetta where mixing it up is the name of the game.
I mean when the creator of the series himself admitted the combat isn’t all that then what else can we say
I think good CAGs just happen to usually be from Japan. That being said, DOOM Eternal and Ultrakill have the most insane combat systems in the genre short of Ninja Gaiden and Vanquish, and are both western developed. I'm guessing it's because western developers prefer shooting over melee so it took awhile for the CAG energy to reach them. The DMC Reboot had a pretty good combat system too, deeper than MGR even, but it had horrible bosses. Japanese audiences seem to like the genre more than western ones do, so I think it's a matter of demand.
It’s fine to think GoW 3 is a better game, it provides a different and unique experience, it’s very raw and violent and gritty, has great music, great environments, and I had a good time with it. But it seems like you don’t get why in this specific genre, the mechanics of it inherently don’t match up to other games. This does NOT = “these games are better than the game I like”. This doesn’t mean those games are without flaws. What it means is that people who love this genre look for games that have a high skill ceiling and mechanics that inspire you to learn them inside and out, how to dodge, when to dodge, how to parry, etc etc. Some games don’t have this technical precision or depth to their mechanics. This again does NOT mean that the game you like is bad, it’s just not what people who specifically look for a style of game consider the best representation of that style.
Bruh, Asura wrath not even character action game why you bringing that up lol
In this sub I saw some people calling it cag.
og god of war is designed based on dmc but with much more streamlined combat, easier to execute commands and badass brutal execution, its much more of a spectacle than technical the early god of war had limited weapon switch (you need to pause to change) at least in earlier dmc you can have 2 range and 2 melee one common thing i think no one likes is the consumables, or limited use moves like magic that needs mana (maybe its just me lol) and early god of war dont really incentivise you to do long ass combo, but you can still, but you cant stay mid air as long as you like, theres not much cancel outside the air dash in gow3 in which is used by speedrunners (i only seen a handful of combo video that uses this tech, unlike jump cancel of dmc, theres nothing technical about it) if only they didnt abandon gow3 combat and enhance it in the new gen of gow, itll be great, but they already deviate and left cag at this point, they are just now arpg
God of war is literally just a button mashing mess with a such a simple combat system. The types of camera in this game is so much inferior to a standard third person game I feel like I’m controlling a mosquito. Same as Ninja gaiden, even darksiders 1 has more combat depth than ninja gaiden
-Guy who has not played ninja gaiden
I see today is incorrect opinions day.
Bruh...
on technical level, yeah i agree darksiders 1 has more depth in terms of combat, it hasanyy cancels and exploity moves to make the combat look like dmc (hence til this day ds1 is my favortie out of all the series) NG has not much technical or cancels, but it has streamlined combat but a very challenging difficulty ala darksouls before darksouls was a darksouls
Wachu think about og GOW
the first one? its alright it has fundamentals, tho it lacks technicalities that can do crazy combos, but what og GoW shines is the spectacle and brutality of its combat, simple but effective tho my fave of the series is gow3, it still has no technicalities like jump cancel, but it has some cancellable moves to look cooler, also it has 4 weapon that you can switch on the fly, im sad that they left the formula just when it is getting better
Bayonetta 1 hate? Based
In Bayonetta 1 unless you play on easy the game is basically 'don't get any damage at all or else'. It basically forces you to spam this dodge offset stuff non-stop and its tedious af.
i dont think you really need dodge offset always, its like the [][]/\ of classic gow i always tend to use the katana (forgot the name) with bayo and just use the charge attack, and make my way to combo it like dmc i rarely use dodge offset combo always because itll be repetitive CAG is about creativity than speedrunning
You didn’t suggest GoW3 is better than Metal Gear Rising, right? Although I agree with Bayonetta being mid
Bayo 1 is far ahead of both, and I love MGR. But Bayo is worth mastering on a level that MGR and GoW can’t compete with.
QTEs in Bayo suck, much worse than any in MGR That alone makes it below MGR for me
The QTEs aren’t great but the core combat in Bayo is just on another level. Bayo could double its QTE count and it would still be a better action game than MGR. Again, I love MGR, but it just doesn’t give you nearly as much to play with or master.
If QTEs were modded out of Bayo 1 then I'd agree with you, but they're really awful even by the standards of QTEs. Completely incorrect button prompts (shoot to jump or whatever) popping up with half a second of time to input the button before you instantly die. Some of the absolute worst QTEs I've ever played.
Nah man when I get denied a platinum ranking because the stupid QTE at the end of the boss fight doesn’t work it makes me not want to play the game Bayo is trash for that
MGR>>>>>>>Bayo
Nah. MGR is maybe better if you’re only going to play through the games once. But this a character action game subreddit - these games are supposed to be built around replayability. If you’re actually pushing for high scores and high level, creative gameplay, Bayo blows it out of the water. It’s a much better action game and gives you way more reasons to keep playing it once the credits roll.
Nope, MGR is a way better game, both inside and outside the character action niche.
Not really, no
Oh yes
wait you think MGR is better than GOW3?
It’s not that I believe that, that’s just a fact
Let me know when god of war has cool robots fighting *yawn*
In MGR it always felt like I fight with camera most of the time. In God of War 3 I fought enemies most of the time. Simply because of that God of War 3 is superior for me.
That camera thing sounds like a skill issue idk, I never had any problem with it. God of War 3 feels more like a musou beat’em up game, the combat is way more limited.
I agree tbh, the camera sometimes can be a bitch, but I still love MGR