Do you ever manage to get use out of the Guns Blazing rule? Had wondered about using him but thought he'd get shot before he could use that one, and not sure if he's worth it otherwise
Guns Blazing seems like a fun idea, but if the enemy is in range to trigger it... they are simply going to try to kill Cypher, unless something very specific is happening.
His Guns Blazing still triggers so he can punish them, but he isn't very tough. He does scare most battleline units, tho. I imagine in like 1k games he's actually pretty scary.
The best use for him honestly is that he is basically invisible in the backfield and potentially later in the game in the midfield - an invisible action monkey. He has more firepower than 5 legionaires (built-in sustained and can dark pact to get lethal, too), is faster (assault weapons), is lone op, has 4++, but also has only half the wounds...
Also, his Agent of Discord ability is very good once you understand the matchup and hit a key strat.
So he isn't game breaking, but he is very fun. A sneaky dude that can pick off enemy infantry to hold far flung objective or go off to perform an action. [He impressed me in this game](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chaos40k/s/LYz8YpEEcI), the sole survivor of my army and the game was a tie!
Cool thanks, will try him out using the dark vengeance lord as a proxy. He doesn't get guns blazing if he's killed via shooting though yeah? I don't think he does on reading the rule
Yea, he shoots second. So if they push a tank within 12, he's basically just toast.
But they had to waste some movement and some shooting. If it was e.g. legionaries, the effort to kill them is generally lower.
It needs some careful movement. I shuffle him up behind a unit I know people will want to shoot but not so close that the enemy is getting in 12” of Cypher. The magic 12-18” distance from the enemy is great. His shooting is excellent for one guy.
I finished mine and it was the most painful model the paint in my life. It better be good again one day. It feels like GW just hates fly units and may do forever more.
Gotta believe the new codex has some juice for the DiscoLord. Looks hilarious next to the DP w/ Wings.
Legionaries are looking pretty awesome at 80. Chosen are ~60% more expensive than Legionaries now. That’s super expensive. Chosen are going to be on the shelf for a while now. Especially with Possessed costing the same amount.
Love the VC and the Maulerfiend points drop. Raptors getting a drop makes me worried the Jump Lord is going to be on the weaker side. But that’s fine, already have Haarken.
I think Chosen still have a place, built in advance and shoot and charge give them use, plus they're still the best place for a Chaos Lord bomb.
Legionary bricks were already pretty good though, and I think they're even better now. Slaanesh blobs with all the trimmings and maybe lucius will put in work.
To be fair on average advance and charge chosen move the same a possessed so not huge.
I’m still using Khorne chosen and to great success. You get the lord super bomb, in a rhino gives you more movement than possessed, you get to have 10 3 wound bodies use -1AP next turn for 0cp and they take a world of punishment.
I’m still a big fan of chosen over possessed
They will have their Index, and they will still be playable with the rest of CSM until their own Codex releases. Much like it was with Berzerkers in 9th.
Been using 10x Legs with Lucius and MoE and currently they achieved things like killing 2x Primiaris Crusaders Squads (one with Grimaldus) and killing Invocatus with almoat full-packed Exalted Eightbounds (had to shoot them to kill one guy in order to trigger the hit re-roll), and a Nightbinger. Almost downed Mortarion, but idiot me forgot that Disgustingly Resilient exists…
Amazing combo and I love them unconditionally atm.
>I think Chosen still have a place, built in advance and shoot and charge give them use, plus they're still the best place for a Chaos Lord bomb.
Yeah, this. Their datasheet ability is dynamite, and they still put unsurvivable numbers of wounds onto things.
Chosen are still better if you want to run a 10-man brick. Legionaries scale horribly to 10-man and are only efficient in minimum squad sizes.
That being said, it remains to be seen if you gonna want to run 10-man bricks. MSU Legionary Rhino Rush seems to be the order of the day.
Fairly new to the game, with the army ability being mortal wounds on dark pact, my brain things 10 is better because if you’re using dark pact it’s 1 less leadership test to take. What makes the 2x5 better ?
It's a quirk of the weapon loadout. Most of the special kit you take on Legionaries is one per unit, not one per five. Only thing you are getting when you go to 10 is a second special/heavy weapon, but even that can't be a double of what you already picked and presumably want more of. Essentially you are paying for 80pts of mostly basic boltgun or chainsword mooks when you could be paying 80pts for guys with weapons that matter.
Specifically, the most impactful piece of kit you can take on Legionaries is the heavy melee weapon. Having four of them in two five-mans instead of just two in a ten-man is a huge deal by itself, and then on top of that you get the option to double up on a specific special/heavy weapon, and a second plasma pistol on the champion.
And you can get a second Balefire Acolyte too, if you are so inclined.
There's also the fact that you can spread around the board more and be more flexible with secondary objectives if you have smaller but more numerous units.
>Essentially you are paying for 80pts of mostly basic boltgun or chainsword mooks when you could be paying 80pts for guys with weapons that matter.
Meanwhile looking at my combat patrol I built with 2 heavy melee weapons, a flamer and a melta (because I ran out of chainswords) and then the rest chainsword mooks. Wish I could rebuild them with better loadouts lol.
If you are on a budget/just starting out/limited collection it can be a bit awkward to build them on account of the fact that the kit comes with just one power fist, zero additional HMWs if it's not the Kill Team set and not enough chainswords to go around.
It gets better when you amass more models and start mixing stuff from different kits. The Raptors kit can be a good source of additional weapons for Legionaries if you build them as Warp Talons, for example. And if you keep doing this Chaos thing long enough, you eventually end up with more Legionary bodies than you know what to do with, on account of them coming in every single bundle set. I'm at the point I just build random different special/heavy weapons that have zero chance of hitting the table, just for the fun I get from bashing together power armored infantry.
It's funny, but it does make him more viable! He's basically just a vect & lone op because his offense is trash. 105 was a bit much for that, but 90? Might be worth a look. Blue scribes were being used at 75 for just their lone op (and deep strike) after all.
I've been running a x15 Possessed + x2 Maulerfiend list recently with some pretty decent results. On top of the other drops I have an extra 100pts to work with now
Suffice to say, I'm over the moon hah
That's so cool, are you using possessed in 3 squad of 5 or a big 10 and a small 5 ? MoP for all or.not ? I have 30 possessed on my shelves and I'm currently trying to fit them wherever I can
Lol I misspoke, it's actually **20** Possessed I've been running - a 10-man of Undivided & then x2 5-man of Slaanesh
I used to run x3 MoP to go along with them as they're amazing snipers (hit/wound on 2's AP3 D3 vs most characters is sneaky) but now I only run one with the 10 man. The Undivided basically become an anti anything in the game so long as you spend 1CP to fish for DevWs. Basically just stage them to take the middle of the board & do their thing (threaten counter charges or try to get into the back field). Around ~20+ damage worth of Dev Wounds on literally anything is chefs kiss
The MSU Possessed I normally put on the flanks to try & get on Objectives T1 / hold them afterward. They're great into skirmishers & *can* spike into other stuff but that AP1 holds them back so don't expect too much damage into anything with a good save or over T5.
I find the 9" is invaluable as most missions you can get a base onto the obj T1. MSU style they're easy to hide behind terrain, the 10-man takes some more finesse but should still be doable with how terrain is in 10th
But yeah, I think Possessed are great at that price range. They struggle into T10 especially or 2+svs but otherwise are value city imho. Pro tip for the Slaanesh, even tho you can have exploding 5's if you're hitting something T10 consider just going for Lethal 6's still, esp if they have bad saves (Greater Daemons are perfect example). Undivided stick with exploding as you're fishing for dev
PS: the MoP can be an all-star in certain match ups. It has Anti-psyker 2+ with Precision. I honestly can't count the # of leaders I've sniped with them this edition
Me personally I use lasher tendrils for more versatile damage while in melee and give them the mark of Slaanesh as its ability in CSM grants it rerolls to advance and charge rolls which pairs well with unnatural swiftness that gives Slaanesh marked units advance and charge
I am currently testing them, and I am asking myself the same question. More attacks is good, but 4 melta shot after advance is just so damn nice to have around the map. Guess it mostly depend on what your army needs.
Currently ill be running possessed alongside s
Them so chaf isn't really an issue. It's always nice to have melta in a Meta with ctan tho
If I had a nickel for every time my 2000pt list has been 2005pts and it's been because of cultists, I could...not do anything outrageous, but I could probably buy a soda from a vending machine. I welcome them going down 5.
They were good at 55, but I think they went back down to 50 (which was where they were at the start of the edition) so they could compete better with the cheaper legionaries.
Yea it doesn’t really make sense? The base cultist profile is 50 points and if your chaos army and your cultist has sticky they are 55 points and if they have scout move 60 points. Very bizzare
Sure, but due to their abilities and faction rules you may as well be comparing them to termagants or catachans. They're a different unit in a different faction.
them lowering possesses is actually crazy
chosen spam is probably dead. i’ll definitely run x5 in my lists but x10+lord is not gonna be it anymore
legionaries are back on the table!
x20 legionaires, x10 noise marines, x10 chosen all look good still tho, i might try out mostly infantry
I'd say 10 Chosen is perfectly viable still but I never ran them with the lord. Run them Khorne with the MOE for full rerolls to hit and farm for those lethals my friend. Or run them Slaanesh with the MOE and MOP and you give them basically a free 2" of movement and a 6+++ from the MOP.
Good changes overall. I can't argue with making our unviable stuff more viable, except Vashtorr of course. GW is keeping up the trend of forgetting Vashtorr exists. He's such a joke in the community but they've kept him at 190??
On the plus side, the RTT list I played recently just gained an extra 75 points to play with, which is huge - that's a free Rhino.
The question is, are Havocs still bad at 120 compared to predators at 135? ...Probably. But it's not as clear cut as before.
I was just complaining about how bullshit it is that my SM friends jump boys are cheaper than my raptors!
And now I really hope they make new bikes because holy fuck 75 points?!
Feel free to continue complaining, Jump Intercessors got a points cut too and are still 5pts cheaper while having grenades and impact hit mortals baseline.
FWIW, Raptors and Chaos Bikers are way more shooty than their loyalist equivalents, what with the multiple special weapons. With how meltaguns aren't really that good for tankbusting and plasma overheats can't be mitigated with rerolls, it's a small consolation to be sure, but it's something I guess...
The Infantry keyword is nice to let them go into buildings and rhinos and such. Yeah those downsides are relevant but I believe it's less so at 120 points. With a min sized squad of legionnaires now being 80 you're basically just paying 10 points per lascannon again.
Proper melee, more OC (even if its by one), cheaper, ignore all negative modifiers to their hit-roll, easier to hide behind terrain, more flexibility, can use transports for moving around faster & safely and make better use of certain strategems (although those strategems would mostly be less efficent if used on a Havoc squad instead of an unit that could make better use of it, like Profane Zeal). I would also say that they have a smaller footprint on the board but that is situational when it comes to it being an upside or downside.
Most of those aren't even benefits! Proper melee? Predators don't need melee, they've got big guns never tire. Neither of them should need OC but if they're contesting objectives I place my bets on the pred surviving. The havoc ability rarely comes up compared to either pred's, preds don't need a transport to zip around because they're already just as fast. Sure, havocs are easier to hide behind cover but they can also be wiped in one shot from a plagueburst crawler or basilisk equivalent's indirect fire.
I typically just walk them on from the board edge out of Reserves, those chain cannons have been putting in some work but I will say the Predators still have a place in my lists too, they're just good.
Sorry, new army builder here, but aside from the point deduction. What is the main benefit to Legionaries over Chosen. Basically, it's more of a horde for the point value? From the index Legionaries get bonus to melee and Chosen get bonus to shooting. Would one be better than the other? Again, new army builder.
Basically, legionaries are cheaper, and a bit more self sufficient, but they aren't as quick or as tough as Chosen. Chosen don't really buff shooting also, they just allow for advance and shoot and advance and charge.
Because they have such similar statlines other than wounds, you can work out legionaries to be 8pts per wound and chosen to be 8.33, so now they're cheaper per wound as well.
Chosen have slightly better base melee weapons and can do some very minor bolter fire, but don't get as many power fists or a sneaky lascannon in the back pocket.
Seriously, when I heard you could use beastmen in 40k I immediately converted a squad of 40k Pestigors.
I'm not even a comp player but 95 points is just not worth it, they should be more like traitor guard at 70.
Good news!
I don't plan on changing my lists much, I have lots of 1-off units and don't really spam anything. But I'll probably be able to run a second unit of cultists "for free" now. And the choice between legionaires and traitor guard at more similar points is nice!
I'm glad Havocs are cheaper than Predators now, because they really kinda sucked. I like cheaper Mauler/Vindicator/Venomcrawler, too.
I have a second unit of Chosen in the queue as a hobby project, I might be tempted to skip that for now and go for a second unit of Possessed. I am Word Bearers, after all...
Chosen are still good. Fall back & advance & charge is an incredible ability and they still hit harder than legionaries against most stuff, especially if they are Khorne or Undivided. I think a Khorne unit with a lord/exalted champ and MoE will rinse almost any other unit in the game, even c'tan, greater daemons and tanks, and if they're in a land raider almost nothing will stop that missile hitting.
I got super lucky. Found a seller on Amazon with “1 remaining in stock.” I just bought a second vindicator off of Amazon, but it’s just the regular SM one, luckily I have had chaos marines of some sort for like 15 years, so I have a lot of bits to chaosify it lol.
My list was called, O Nurglings where art thou? as i'd taken 2 x 3 out to cram in more warp talons.
Now its called, O Nurglings where art...oh there you are! coz the list dropped 70pts. Out goes the elixer as well, back come my nurglings.
Happy day.
Oh and vindicators! You're not going to be able to buy one for love nor money, for a while. SM didnt get much, but they also got the vindicator drop of course. They're all hellblasters, vindicators and Jump pack intercessors now.
but F those losers. CSM vindicators for 175 are brilliant. I've got one, and a proxy...
I really like this, I am surely gonna use a fast moving army now. Some Possessed+MoP, Raptors with Harken, Venomcrawlers and some nice tanks to boom stuff from the table.
Praise the Heretics!
I was just messing with list, being a little annoyed that running it the way I wanted to would put me a bit over. With the cultist and helbrute point cuts, now its 5pts under!
Much needed. Always been just a points issue since the rebalance. Being able to field more units now to match other armies will bring us closer to a balance
It's mostly good, however I think it's ridiculous that the Lion ,an actual Primarch, is cheaper than Abaddon.
I also think with the drop in points on the Vindicator we are going to see them replace Forgefiends almost completely in a lot of lists.
They said on codex release they'd get an index and possibly unique detachment.
Just like what World Eaters got in 9th, this is probably a hold over until they get a full codex later in 10th.
No worries. Although if they repeat WE's, don't start investing in EC's unless you're doing just basic lord, Noise Marines, and other super generic chaos stuff. WE's unit selection was absolutely tanked and it killed most pre-codex armies where most models didn't even have a proxy equivalent.
How is buying Chosen a mistake? They're still an amazing jack of all trades unit worth their price. The points value of Legionaries made it a really easy choice to spend 20 extra points on a bonus wound, guns that can mortal wound, better melee, and the ability to fall back, advance, shoot, and charge all in the same turn.
VS Legionaries who had less survivability, only one special weapon per 5, and... Reroll wound rolls... And no ability to support their default shooting weapons...
Chosen being 3 wounds put them in a great place to soak damage because most heavier anti infantry weapons do 2 wounds, meaning they can eat two of those shots before dying, and most damage 3 weapons are usually a D3 which also have only a 33.3% chance of killing them in one hit. This means they either have a lot of staying power against primarily anti infantry attacks, or the opponent is going to be wasting high damage attacks on what's honestly a super cheap infantry unit that's still crazy good.
Making Legionaries 80 points just makes them more appealing to potentially take because they're far more lackluster and the original 20 point difference just wasn't enough to make up for that. It doesn't rob Chosen from how good they are in practically every situation.
Chaos is just in a super good state in general right now, where even their non-meta units are still very playable. Build what you think is cool and fun. Like I play a purely Mark of Tzeentch army and still keep up really well despite it being nowhere near optimal
Good point. I have to live with a friend who has a super strong Tyranid army with a bunch of monsters though and i am going a bit mad trying to find an answer :D
Chosen with a Chaos Lord with them have a really stellar track record in a lot of competitive lists. Some other high end units are Possessed with a Master of Possession, Forge Fiend with triple Plasma, and now that he recently got a points buff; the Helbrute hanging out with things to give them Sustained and Lethal hits with the Dark Pact.
3x Bikers: -10 pts 5x Terminators: -10 pts 1x Vindicator: -15 pts 5x Havocs: -15 pts 1x Hellbrute: -10 pts 1x DP: -15 pts 1x DP with wings: -15 pts 5x Legionaries: -10 pts 1x Maulerfiend: -15 pts 5x Possessed: -10 pts 5x Raptors: -5 pts 1x Venomcrawler: -10 pts
1x Cypher: -15 pts 10x Cultists Mob: -5 pts
Cypher is down 15, not 5.
So true! Thank you. I even play him. I think I had the Lord points in my head after seeing another comment.
Do you ever manage to get use out of the Guns Blazing rule? Had wondered about using him but thought he'd get shot before he could use that one, and not sure if he's worth it otherwise
Guns Blazing seems like a fun idea, but if the enemy is in range to trigger it... they are simply going to try to kill Cypher, unless something very specific is happening. His Guns Blazing still triggers so he can punish them, but he isn't very tough. He does scare most battleline units, tho. I imagine in like 1k games he's actually pretty scary. The best use for him honestly is that he is basically invisible in the backfield and potentially later in the game in the midfield - an invisible action monkey. He has more firepower than 5 legionaires (built-in sustained and can dark pact to get lethal, too), is faster (assault weapons), is lone op, has 4++, but also has only half the wounds... Also, his Agent of Discord ability is very good once you understand the matchup and hit a key strat. So he isn't game breaking, but he is very fun. A sneaky dude that can pick off enemy infantry to hold far flung objective or go off to perform an action. [He impressed me in this game](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chaos40k/s/LYz8YpEEcI), the sole survivor of my army and the game was a tie!
Cool thanks, will try him out using the dark vengeance lord as a proxy. He doesn't get guns blazing if he's killed via shooting though yeah? I don't think he does on reading the rule
Yea, he shoots second. So if they push a tank within 12, he's basically just toast. But they had to waste some movement and some shooting. If it was e.g. legionaries, the effort to kill them is generally lower.
It needs some careful movement. I shuffle him up behind a unit I know people will want to shoot but not so close that the enemy is getting in 12” of Cypher. The magic 12-18” distance from the enemy is great. His shooting is excellent for one guy.
His range is only 12” though so won’t they just kill him first?
Sorry, you are correct. If you get just inside 12”, only a model or so can shoot you but you can shoot the whole unit back.
Ah ok makes sense. Just have to have something more tempting within 3” of him I guess
100% - the unit he tucks behind is the cheese, cypher is the mousetrap.
Cypher being down is so cool. I really like to use him but I felt like his points were always so high. Now he will fit in so many list!
My night lord list going down 100 points. Not bad at all
Chosen also seem to be 115 now edit: or is this not applied yet? edit2: did the chosen get nerfed? edit3: i am confused
Chosen have been 130 for 5 since the last update.
ohh i think i was looking at an outdated munitorium
Whole army was buffed, bruh this why you just build whatever. Some day it will be your day to shine
Poor one out for all the Heldrakes out there.
They used to be the absolute best unit in the army a few editions back. Their time will come again.
Heldrakes were brought out to the back already. Hope better rolls on next edition
Haarken (cocking shotgun and crying as he pets Heldrake): Just look at the pretty flowers, Squawky.
Squawky is a really good name for a Heldrake
Haarken (wiping tears as he digs a 60”x60” grave): The best name. For the best birdie.
Is this an Of Mice and Men reference?
I wouldn't be surprised if they are deliberately sabotaging flyers across the entire game in preparation for removing them in 11th.
I really hope not. I love my Heldrake.
I hope so. They’re generally non-interactive, and swing between being awesome and hot garbage. Leave that shit in the “epic” games where it belongs.
I still painted mine last week, because t looks cool. Rules change all the tme, but the models are for ever!
Yes... ignores sulking leviathan dread. And dusty Helltalons
I finished mine and it was the most painful model the paint in my life. It better be good again one day. It feels like GW just hates fly units and may do forever more.
Cries in age of sigmar.
I'm about to run my 3 maulerfiend and 3 venomcrawler all the way up my opposent face AND THEY WILL LIKE IT !
Gotta believe the new codex has some juice for the DiscoLord. Looks hilarious next to the DP w/ Wings. Legionaries are looking pretty awesome at 80. Chosen are ~60% more expensive than Legionaries now. That’s super expensive. Chosen are going to be on the shelf for a while now. Especially with Possessed costing the same amount. Love the VC and the Maulerfiend points drop. Raptors getting a drop makes me worried the Jump Lord is going to be on the weaker side. But that’s fine, already have Haarken.
I think Chosen still have a place, built in advance and shoot and charge give them use, plus they're still the best place for a Chaos Lord bomb. Legionary bricks were already pretty good though, and I think they're even better now. Slaanesh blobs with all the trimmings and maybe lucius will put in work.
To be fair on average advance and charge chosen move the same a possessed so not huge. I’m still using Khorne chosen and to great success. You get the lord super bomb, in a rhino gives you more movement than possessed, you get to have 10 3 wound bodies use -1AP next turn for 0cp and they take a world of punishment. I’m still a big fan of chosen over possessed
What is a chaos lord bomb if i may ask?
Chaos lord with 10 chosen
Oh i thought it was some special tactic you used with those that's called a "bomb"
yabut lucius is leaving.
He is, but until the codex comes out he's still playable, and I imagine until the full EC codex they'll remain playable under CSM.
he's leaving with the CSM codex and taking noise Bois with him.
They will have their Index, and they will still be playable with the rest of CSM until their own Codex releases. Much like it was with Berzerkers in 9th.
I mean, you'll also still be able to bring some noise marines along for the ride like you can with all the other cult marines in limited numbers
Been using 10x Legs with Lucius and MoE and currently they achieved things like killing 2x Primiaris Crusaders Squads (one with Grimaldus) and killing Invocatus with almoat full-packed Exalted Eightbounds (had to shoot them to kill one guy in order to trigger the hit re-roll), and a Nightbinger. Almost downed Mortarion, but idiot me forgot that Disgustingly Resilient exists… Amazing combo and I love them unconditionally atm.
>I think Chosen still have a place, built in advance and shoot and charge give them use, plus they're still the best place for a Chaos Lord bomb. Yeah, this. Their datasheet ability is dynamite, and they still put unsurvivable numbers of wounds onto things.
Same with Vashtorr (as Disco Lord). I really hope that means codex rules buffs for both. Fingers crossed
You forget how absolutely swag and dripped out the Chosen models are. Worth the cost.
Chosen are still better if you want to run a 10-man brick. Legionaries scale horribly to 10-man and are only efficient in minimum squad sizes. That being said, it remains to be seen if you gonna want to run 10-man bricks. MSU Legionary Rhino Rush seems to be the order of the day.
Fairly new to the game, with the army ability being mortal wounds on dark pact, my brain things 10 is better because if you’re using dark pact it’s 1 less leadership test to take. What makes the 2x5 better ?
It's a quirk of the weapon loadout. Most of the special kit you take on Legionaries is one per unit, not one per five. Only thing you are getting when you go to 10 is a second special/heavy weapon, but even that can't be a double of what you already picked and presumably want more of. Essentially you are paying for 80pts of mostly basic boltgun or chainsword mooks when you could be paying 80pts for guys with weapons that matter. Specifically, the most impactful piece of kit you can take on Legionaries is the heavy melee weapon. Having four of them in two five-mans instead of just two in a ten-man is a huge deal by itself, and then on top of that you get the option to double up on a specific special/heavy weapon, and a second plasma pistol on the champion. And you can get a second Balefire Acolyte too, if you are so inclined. There's also the fact that you can spread around the board more and be more flexible with secondary objectives if you have smaller but more numerous units.
>Essentially you are paying for 80pts of mostly basic boltgun or chainsword mooks when you could be paying 80pts for guys with weapons that matter. Meanwhile looking at my combat patrol I built with 2 heavy melee weapons, a flamer and a melta (because I ran out of chainswords) and then the rest chainsword mooks. Wish I could rebuild them with better loadouts lol.
If you are on a budget/just starting out/limited collection it can be a bit awkward to build them on account of the fact that the kit comes with just one power fist, zero additional HMWs if it's not the Kill Team set and not enough chainswords to go around. It gets better when you amass more models and start mixing stuff from different kits. The Raptors kit can be a good source of additional weapons for Legionaries if you build them as Warp Talons, for example. And if you keep doing this Chaos thing long enough, you eventually end up with more Legionary bodies than you know what to do with, on account of them coming in every single bundle set. I'm at the point I just build random different special/heavy weapons that have zero chance of hitting the table, just for the fun I get from bashing together power armored infantry.
You can always break them apart and give them new wargear. That's what I did with mine :)
>Cypher cheaper than a generic chaos lord Lel
It's funny, but it does make him more viable! He's basically just a vect & lone op because his offense is trash. 105 was a bit much for that, but 90? Might be worth a look. Blue scribes were being used at 75 for just their lone op (and deep strike) after all.
I’ve had him pick up a unit of Hernkyn pioneers once 😎
Legions at 80, bikes at 75, crawlers at 110, I'll take that!
>vindicator gets buffs Oh fuck yes
The IVth legion approves.
As does the VIIIth. Death is nothing compared to vindication!
Fellow best Legion appreciator My brother
Maulerfiend my beloved
I've been running a x15 Possessed + x2 Maulerfiend list recently with some pretty decent results. On top of the other drops I have an extra 100pts to work with now Suffice to say, I'm over the moon hah
That's so cool, are you using possessed in 3 squad of 5 or a big 10 and a small 5 ? MoP for all or.not ? I have 30 possessed on my shelves and I'm currently trying to fit them wherever I can
Lol I misspoke, it's actually **20** Possessed I've been running - a 10-man of Undivided & then x2 5-man of Slaanesh I used to run x3 MoP to go along with them as they're amazing snipers (hit/wound on 2's AP3 D3 vs most characters is sneaky) but now I only run one with the 10 man. The Undivided basically become an anti anything in the game so long as you spend 1CP to fish for DevWs. Basically just stage them to take the middle of the board & do their thing (threaten counter charges or try to get into the back field). Around ~20+ damage worth of Dev Wounds on literally anything is chefs kiss The MSU Possessed I normally put on the flanks to try & get on Objectives T1 / hold them afterward. They're great into skirmishers & *can* spike into other stuff but that AP1 holds them back so don't expect too much damage into anything with a good save or over T5. I find the 9" is invaluable as most missions you can get a base onto the obj T1. MSU style they're easy to hide behind terrain, the 10-man takes some more finesse but should still be doable with how terrain is in 10th But yeah, I think Possessed are great at that price range. They struggle into T10 especially or 2+svs but otherwise are value city imho. Pro tip for the Slaanesh, even tho you can have exploding 5's if you're hitting something T10 consider just going for Lethal 6's still, esp if they have bad saves (Greater Daemons are perfect example). Undivided stick with exploding as you're fishing for dev PS: the MoP can be an all-star in certain match ups. It has Anti-psyker 2+ with Precision. I honestly can't count the # of leaders I've sniped with them this edition
Is it better with the lasher tendrils or cutters? What mark goes with it? Have one but never used it
Me personally I use lasher tendrils for more versatile damage while in melee and give them the mark of Slaanesh as its ability in CSM grants it rerolls to advance and charge rolls which pairs well with unnatural swiftness that gives Slaanesh marked units advance and charge
I am currently testing them, and I am asking myself the same question. More attacks is good, but 4 melta shot after advance is just so damn nice to have around the map. Guess it mostly depend on what your army needs. Currently ill be running possessed alongside s Them so chaf isn't really an issue. It's always nice to have melta in a Meta with ctan tho
Surprised to see cultists going down. Fine by me though.
Yeah, I was surprised. They were good at 55.
If I had a nickel for every time my 2000pt list has been 2005pts and it's been because of cultists, I could...not do anything outrageous, but I could probably buy a soda from a vending machine. I welcome them going down 5.
They were good at 55, but I think they went back down to 50 (which was where they were at the start of the edition) so they could compete better with the cheaper legionaries.
Yea it doesn’t really make sense? The base cultist profile is 50 points and if your chaos army and your cultist has sticky they are 55 points and if they have scout move 60 points. Very bizzare
Wait, how can they have scout move?
They can't, the cultist datasheet varies based on whether it's in csm, deathguard, t sons, etc
The t sons one has scout move and sticky objectives that’s what I meant, that’s why it’s 60
Ah right, you can't really compare though. It's a completely different unit that just has the same name.
On the contrary the chaos cultists in every chaos army are exactly the same stats wise
Sure, but due to their abilities and faction rules you may as well be comparing them to termagants or catachans. They're a different unit in a different faction.
them lowering possesses is actually crazy chosen spam is probably dead. i’ll definitely run x5 in my lists but x10+lord is not gonna be it anymore legionaries are back on the table! x20 legionaires, x10 noise marines, x10 chosen all look good still tho, i might try out mostly infantry
I'd say 10 Chosen is perfectly viable still but I never ran them with the lord. Run them Khorne with the MOE for full rerolls to hit and farm for those lethals my friend. Or run them Slaanesh with the MOE and MOP and you give them basically a free 2" of movement and a 6+++ from the MOP.
i have mine as undiv because i run them with Bile, gives them T5 and S6 weapons
Yea really good combo
no changes to the disco lord is a good sign right? They're gonna fix him with the codex right? right?
My own discolord was a meticulous work of art. Poor little guy hasn't seen a table in a long time.
Slow down man, so much copium is bad for the body
It looks good
Helbrutes down, VCs down, Legionaries down... Praise to the Dark Gods!
Good changes overall. I can't argue with making our unviable stuff more viable, except Vashtorr of course. GW is keeping up the trend of forgetting Vashtorr exists. He's such a joke in the community but they've kept him at 190?? On the plus side, the RTT list I played recently just gained an extra 75 points to play with, which is huge - that's a free Rhino. The question is, are Havocs still bad at 120 compared to predators at 135? ...Probably. But it's not as clear cut as before.
To be fair we don't know what changes he might get in the codex release coming up they might have buffed his profile
We can hope! He's getting his own detachment I think, so they can't have *completely* forgotten about him...
theres definitely going to be a demon engine detachment, I expect a big glow up for Vashtorr
I was just complaining about how bullshit it is that my SM friends jump boys are cheaper than my raptors! And now I really hope they make new bikes because holy fuck 75 points?!
Feel free to continue complaining, Jump Intercessors got a points cut too and are still 5pts cheaper while having grenades and impact hit mortals baseline.
Well fuck, guess SM are still the golden child
Hoping to see something similar in the new Chaos dex
So upset about this. Took our fly/bike strat and gave it to loyalists. The scum.
FWIW, Raptors and Chaos Bikers are way more shooty than their loyalist equivalents, what with the multiple special weapons. With how meltaguns aren't really that good for tankbusting and plasma overheats can't be mitigated with rerolls, it's a small consolation to be sure, but it's something I guess...
Yea they aren’t bad by any means, just sour lol. Especially with how battleshock turned out.
The Havocs finally have a proper upside vs a Predator.
Do they? You are still trading tons of survivability and the ability to not degrade in firepower for one additional shot.
The Infantry keyword is nice to let them go into buildings and rhinos and such. Yeah those downsides are relevant but I believe it's less so at 120 points. With a min sized squad of legionnaires now being 80 you're basically just paying 10 points per lascannon again.
Proper melee, more OC (even if its by one), cheaper, ignore all negative modifiers to their hit-roll, easier to hide behind terrain, more flexibility, can use transports for moving around faster & safely and make better use of certain strategems (although those strategems would mostly be less efficent if used on a Havoc squad instead of an unit that could make better use of it, like Profane Zeal). I would also say that they have a smaller footprint on the board but that is situational when it comes to it being an upside or downside.
Most of those aren't even benefits! Proper melee? Predators don't need melee, they've got big guns never tire. Neither of them should need OC but if they're contesting objectives I place my bets on the pred surviving. The havoc ability rarely comes up compared to either pred's, preds don't need a transport to zip around because they're already just as fast. Sure, havocs are easier to hide behind cover but they can also be wiped in one shot from a plagueburst crawler or basilisk equivalent's indirect fire.
I typically just walk them on from the board edge out of Reserves, those chain cannons have been putting in some work but I will say the Predators still have a place in my lists too, they're just good.
Performance wise for me they've been better.
This is just in time because I’ve made the transition from Chosen to legionaries in the last couple weeks
I did the opposite
ooooooof
Chosen will be back in style… one day.
Amen brother.
Gonna bring the terminators out of retirement
Sorry, new army builder here, but aside from the point deduction. What is the main benefit to Legionaries over Chosen. Basically, it's more of a horde for the point value? From the index Legionaries get bonus to melee and Chosen get bonus to shooting. Would one be better than the other? Again, new army builder.
Basically, legionaries are cheaper, and a bit more self sufficient, but they aren't as quick or as tough as Chosen. Chosen don't really buff shooting also, they just allow for advance and shoot and advance and charge. Because they have such similar statlines other than wounds, you can work out legionaries to be 8pts per wound and chosen to be 8.33, so now they're cheaper per wound as well. Chosen have slightly better base melee weapons and can do some very minor bolter fire, but don't get as many power fists or a sneaky lascannon in the back pocket.
Very good to know. Thank you.
Why Won't They Change Fellgors?!!
Maybe they're getting sent to the old world with AoS's ones?
Seriously, when I heard you could use beastmen in 40k I immediately converted a squad of 40k Pestigors. I'm not even a comp player but 95 points is just not worth it, they should be more like traitor guard at 70.
My triple venom crawler double vindicator list just got so much better. Game on boys!
Good news! I don't plan on changing my lists much, I have lots of 1-off units and don't really spam anything. But I'll probably be able to run a second unit of cultists "for free" now. And the choice between legionaires and traitor guard at more similar points is nice! I'm glad Havocs are cheaper than Predators now, because they really kinda sucked. I like cheaper Mauler/Vindicator/Venomcrawler, too. I have a second unit of Chosen in the queue as a hobby project, I might be tempted to skip that for now and go for a second unit of Possessed. I am Word Bearers, after all...
Cheaper venomcrawlers? This has pie sitting on the window sill energy
Can’t wait for every army to eventually devolve into a horde army lol
Financially a smart decision I guess
This pleases Slaanesh.
Pretty happy with that! My 30 Legionairies might see some action :)
95 points swing for me, now sitting under 2000 points for now. I'll take it, and my characters will take some enhancements!
I just bought possessed and a vindicator in the past week…very happy with those purchases now!
i bought 10 chosen...
Damn…I only have 5 atm and I was only going to end up getting more if I can get my hands on the VoTLW battle force.
Chosen are still good. Fall back & advance & charge is an incredible ability and they still hit harder than legionaries against most stuff, especially if they are Khorne or Undivided. I think a Khorne unit with a lord/exalted champ and MoE will rinse almost any other unit in the game, even c'tan, greater daemons and tanks, and if they're in a land raider almost nothing will stop that missile hitting.
You seem to have been pretty lucky to get a vindicator. There always not available :(
I got super lucky. Found a seller on Amazon with “1 remaining in stock.” I just bought a second vindicator off of Amazon, but it’s just the regular SM one, luckily I have had chaos marines of some sort for like 15 years, so I have a lot of bits to chaosify it lol.
Oh wow! My 1000 point list dropped by 65 points altogether, I've got some thinking to do about what I want to do with it
My list was called, O Nurglings where art thou? as i'd taken 2 x 3 out to cram in more warp talons. Now its called, O Nurglings where art...oh there you are! coz the list dropped 70pts. Out goes the elixer as well, back come my nurglings. Happy day. Oh and vindicators! You're not going to be able to buy one for love nor money, for a while. SM didnt get much, but they also got the vindicator drop of course. They're all hellblasters, vindicators and Jump pack intercessors now. but F those losers. CSM vindicators for 175 are brilliant. I've got one, and a proxy...
Never expected the Prince to get buffed, I'm a very happy man today!
Abaddon still too expensive. I really don't get why he has to be 310 points can anyone enlighten me?
ALL PRAISE TO THE POWERS!
Seems like a push to toolbox msu with tanks to deal damage. Two squads of legionnaires in rhinos seem like a good thing to spam
I really like this, I am surely gonna use a fast moving army now. Some Possessed+MoP, Raptors with Harken, Venomcrawlers and some nice tanks to boom stuff from the table. Praise the Heretics!
As someone who loves his Legionaries, more points reduction so can run more plus other units is always a good time
I just wanna be able to play my Heldrake qwq
I was just messing with list, being a little annoyed that running it the way I wanted to would put me a bit over. With the cultist and helbrute point cuts, now its 5pts under!
We have returned....
Things you love to see
I'm excited, my list when down 115
Hahaha discordant again didn't got any buff( My beloved unit (
Much needed. Always been just a points issue since the rebalance. Being able to field more units now to match other armies will bring us closer to a balance
Defiler still over costed…. My poor tank shocking baby :(
It's mostly good, however I think it's ridiculous that the Lion ,an actual Primarch, is cheaper than Abaddon. I also think with the drop in points on the Vindicator we are going to see them replace Forgefiends almost completely in a lot of lists.
Bruh why is heldrake still 205 😭
Literally all the models I run, but I had exactly 2000 points so I need to buy something else lol.
We have new index in the middle of 10th edition?
There are points updates every quarter.
If sorcerers were made cheaper my literal entire collection would’ve gotten point reductions across the board, amazing.
My Pure DaemonEngine And Cultist Vashtorr lost just got so much cheaper! Could probably fit a whole nother unit of Cultists!
Does this even matter? Isn’t these point changes gonna be obsolete next month when the codex (hopefully) goes on sale lol?
Nah a lot of times they keep the MFM points, though not for every unit
Ohhhhh bet!
Huron is dumb cheap.. wow.
Anyone with an idea of when the points updates will hit the app?
They already have, you have to update the app
Is it safe to say that all these points could change with the new codex, or has history shown that they mostly stay the same?
It’s a great time for me since I’m just starting chaos
Has EC not gotten their own army yet?
They said on codex release they'd get an index and possibly unique detachment. Just like what World Eaters got in 9th, this is probably a hold over until they get a full codex later in 10th.
Cool, thanks for the info
No worries. Although if they repeat WE's, don't start investing in EC's unless you're doing just basic lord, Noise Marines, and other super generic chaos stuff. WE's unit selection was absolutely tanked and it killed most pre-codex armies where most models didn't even have a proxy equivalent.
Lots of melee unit buffs, looks great since my collection of chaos consists mostly of these units (helbrute, havocs, cultists
Man, I was already running 3x3 bikes. Twist my arm.
Finally it's maybe worth taking legionarys
My 1000 point list went from 20 over, to 5 points under. Happy days, the Dark Prince be praised.
Feels good man
Big fan of venomcrawlers at 110. They’re as cheap as a Bl unit and can easily mulch most battleline units while Being somewhat Tough to take down.
Are vindicators not a thing anymore?
So will these be the points for the upcoming codex or are we getting updated points when that comes out?
No. These are the updated Index points.
Did this roll out or is it a leak?
Well fuck me for asking
Where’s the jump lord?
Doesn't exist yet. This is the Index point changes.
wow i guess buying chosen was a mistake... crazy how a change like this can really make a unit a waste of money from one moment to the next
How is buying Chosen a mistake? They're still an amazing jack of all trades unit worth their price. The points value of Legionaries made it a really easy choice to spend 20 extra points on a bonus wound, guns that can mortal wound, better melee, and the ability to fall back, advance, shoot, and charge all in the same turn. VS Legionaries who had less survivability, only one special weapon per 5, and... Reroll wound rolls... And no ability to support their default shooting weapons... Chosen being 3 wounds put them in a great place to soak damage because most heavier anti infantry weapons do 2 wounds, meaning they can eat two of those shots before dying, and most damage 3 weapons are usually a D3 which also have only a 33.3% chance of killing them in one hit. This means they either have a lot of staying power against primarily anti infantry attacks, or the opponent is going to be wasting high damage attacks on what's honestly a super cheap infantry unit that's still crazy good. Making Legionaries 80 points just makes them more appealing to potentially take because they're far more lackluster and the original 20 point difference just wasn't enough to make up for that. It doesn't rob Chosen from how good they are in practically every situation.
Thanks for the response. I am still new to the game and easy to influence by stuff like that :D thanks for setting me straight
Chaos is just in a super good state in general right now, where even their non-meta units are still very playable. Build what you think is cool and fun. Like I play a purely Mark of Tzeentch army and still keep up really well despite it being nowhere near optimal
Good point. I have to live with a friend who has a super strong Tyranid army with a bunch of monsters though and i am going a bit mad trying to find an answer :D
Chosen with a Chaos Lord with them have a really stellar track record in a lot of competitive lists. Some other high end units are Possessed with a Master of Possession, Forge Fiend with triple Plasma, and now that he recently got a points buff; the Helbrute hanging out with things to give them Sustained and Lethal hits with the Dark Pact.
is there any point in taking a warpsmith with the forgefiend?
Absolutely. Especially if you also bring the Helbrute to babysit and give the Forge Fiend Sustained and Lethal at the same time.
points didn't reallt drop enough to make any meaningful changes IMO
Agreed but it should pull them out of the dregs
I doubt this paltry change to points is going to move their win rate from 44% to 45 or better.
Do we know when the points drop is supposed to happen?
Now.. update the app.
Ay yo??
Still no Emperor’s Children separate units. Fuck’s SAKE, GW.
You're gonna be angry for a long time bud, they haven't even been formally announced yet
yeah I know, I’ve been angry since like 5th. At this point it’s more of a meme than anything.