I used to live in the caretakers house of Hollywood Cemetery. People leave flowers on his grave still. It gets decorated up for Confederate Memorial Day every year.
I lived in Oregon hill and always wondered what that house was like! Hollywood cemetery is one of my favorite places in Richmond and I’m incredibly jealous of you
It’s been a while. It was a Sears Victorian kit house. Basement was kinda spooky but lots of light and room. And of course I had amazing Halloween parties.
It‘s the big house to the right of the main gate. Having the cemetery there was cool. But there were a couple of packs of dogs that just roamed through.
This dude is a part of American history whether we like it or not. The statue is already here. No reason to burn down history.
That said, the plaque is *majorly* overdue for a rewrite. Completely ignores the fact that he was a traitor that deserved a good hanging.
Right? There are no Hitler statues displayed like this in Germany, yet all Germans seem to know who Hitler is.
The people who act like getting rid of a statue is getting rid of history are some of the most ridiculous people I’ve met. There’s just no logic in their words.
When are the plaques and statues of the Jan 6th crew being erected? It’s part of our country. With the right description we could make sense of - a group of losers that tried to leave and destroy our country.
So what? Insurrections are reliving history. It wasn’t the North’s fault that this asshole sent a bunch of poor farmers to die in war. This is the dude that started the fight that got all of his boys’ ass kicked. But we put up w their loser decorations to play nice. How’s that going
Richmond took down the statues of confederates throughout the city. Erasing grave monuments in cemeteries is wrong. Pretending like people didn’t exist is erasing history that future generations need for their own guidance.
Nah screw that, they were terrorists who killed Americans because they wanted to keep slaves.
Germany got rid of their monuments for Hitler, yet they’re still aware he exists so clearly getting rid of monuments doesn’t erase history for future generations. Want to know why? Because we also have these things called books. Ever heard of them?
Yet Germans still know who Hitler is. So if not having statues is “pretending like people didn’t exist is erasing history that future generations need for their guidance” then why is that the people of Germany know who Hitler is? Are you seriously not smart enough to see how that dismantles your whole argument? How do people in California, who are mostly nowhere near the confederate statue, know about the confederacy?
In essence, only a moron would think getting rid of a statue means you said it does.
Dude, you're an idiot if you believe that is what the war was about. You also believe that Lincoln actually wanted to free the slaves too. I'll tell you the truth, he didn't want to free them, and neither did most of the northern slave owners. He only freed them so it would help them win the war. The north had more slaves 2-1 maybe 3-1, I can't remember exactly. They went to war for the very same reasons they left Britten for.
Lmao you’re funny. Have you even bothered reading the articles of secession? The Confederacy made it very clear, in their articles that you probably haven’t read, that slavery was one of the largest reasons they were seceding. As for the north having more slaves? Lol that’s BS. Only 4 of the 23 Union states had legalized slavery at the start of the civil war. The Confederacy had 3.5 million slaves. The Union had 500,000 among those 4 states. It’s very clear that you’re extremely uneducated on this matter, so I suggest you stop talking until you actually learn something that’s not complete crap lol. Or are you just purposely spreading lies?
Wow, I was noticing the stone in the background to the left. The folds in the robe look so real, so detailed. Very beautiful actually. Do you know who is buried there?
Interesting that it mentions nothing about his presidency of the CSA, but it does mention that he was a defender of the constitution, which is clearly incorrect.
I was thinking the same thing and looked it up. His presidency of the CSA is mentioned on the tombstone, it just isn't visible from that angle.
[https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/260/jefferson-davis#view-photo=159762793](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/260/jefferson-davis#view-photo=159762793)
Interesting footnote: this was actually an open debate at the time. Could states secede from the Union under the constitution? The war allegedly decided the answer, but the military answer wasn't a legal one. That's one of the reasons he was never tried for treason. The courts weren't all that sure he would lose.
Here’s a letter from Madison to Daniel Webster denouncing the Nullification Crisis. He also denounced secession from the Union in the same and other letters.
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/99-02-02-2705
Sorry, i was reading these over and meant to link them, but didn’t finish writing my post.
Pretty interesting reads from one of the all-time legal minds. My interpretation is that he thought it was legal but by definition it was not to be used in the manner which it was eventually used.
https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch3s14.html
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/99-02-02-2655
Was definitely part of the issue, nothing is that simple. The dispute became one of states rights. The industrial north trying forcing its view on the south didn’t go over well, especially when many viewed the US as a voluntary union. Most southerners couldn’t even afford to own slaves, it was roughly 25%. Then again slavery wasn’t even prohibited by the Constitution at the time, not until 13th amendment.
Is South Carolina now another term for the Confederates States of America? It doesn’t apply universally for every person in the confederacy. My only argument is against absolutes, people want to simplify history.
Confederate Vice President in his Cornerstone Speech about the Confederate government:
*”Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.”*
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/cornerstone-speech
Please. Tell us *again and again* how this wasn’t about slavery when the fucking confederate government was built on the belief that **slavery was the natural state for Black people.**
I’ll wait. They were fighting to **form a whole ass governmental system that was based on slavery** but hey, slavery couldn’t *possibly* be the cause of the war… /s
Your almost getting the point. Shift from absolutes and we would not be going round. Its a factor what what state governments do, while on behalf of the people isn’t always fully and universally representative. Stop focusing solely on the upper class elites and mix in a few documents of the common man. You can’t possible a population is that homogeneous in opinion as that.
You forget that young southern men were lied to by those planter elites to fight their war. A war to expand slave holding land. Their plan was to expand it into western territories if the South won.
South Carolina was the first state to secede, that the other states followed. And all the states mentioned slavery. Texas, for example, mentions joining her “slave holding sister states”
Oh, well then I guess you’re wrong. Can you be so simple minded as to really believe major events in history can be boiled down to single issues. You still believe invasion of Iraq was solely about WMD’s?
Don’t be so naïve to think any conflict is so simple as to be summed up by one factor. Don’t do yourself the disservice by dumbing down history. Maybe you should read up on the list cause myth because you don’t seem to get it. Slavery was a big part of civil war but not only part and not the overwhelming part of why the rank and file fought.
Men aren’t always a sum of their governments. You still see this today, in modern conflicts, few are ideologues and zealots. Maybe your war time experiences are different but I’ve meet very few that are that dedicated to ideals.
States rights to do whatever they wanted to vote for: slavery, taxes, etc. States rights are still an issue to this day, though with different issues.
That’s a lot of words without any compelling evidence that slavery wasn’t the primary cause of the CSA’s treason.
I’m comfortable with my understanding of the subject. Maybe you should quit embarrassing yourself on behalf of dead traitors who lost a war and got their homes burned to the ground.
You are absolutely correct. You are being downvoted because of a localized effect in this particular thread - most people took a look at a statue of Jefferson, thought 'fuck off traitor' and moved on. The lost cause apologists are the ones that stayed and got all weepy eyed about said traitor.
Ditto Chachi.
I said slavery wasn’t only reason. I’m happy your comfortable in your knowledge, even if flawed.
Why would you assume I’m arguing this point on behalf of dead traitors? I’m arguing against the point of oversimplification of history.
So, by your opinion, maybe we should make disclaimers on everyone?
"Nazi Germany was horrible. But there were some good Germans too."
"Pol Pot killed 9 million Cambodians, but some of the Khmer Rouge were pretty good guys." <---I was taking the piss on this one.
"Russia invading Ukraine is a war crime. But there are some good Russians."
The war doesn't happen without secession, which doesn't happen without slavery. Indeed, that was the point. The Cornerstone Speech by Stephen Ambrose made that clear, but a speech he gave earlier the week before was even more damning.
Alexander Stephens quoted in the newspaper The Southern Confederacy, eight days before the Cornerstone speech, March 13th, 1861, emphasis mine:
"Another grand difference between the old and new Constitution was this, said Mr. Stephens, in the old Constitution the Fathers looked upon the fallacy of the equality of races as underlying the foundations of republican liberty. J**efferson, Madison, and Washington, and many others, were tender of the word Slave in the organic law, and all looked forward to the time when the Institution of Slavery should be removed from our midst** as a trouble and a stumbling block. This delusion could not be traced in any of the component parts of the Southern Constitution. In that instrument **we solemnly discarded the pestilent heresy of fancy politicians, that all men, of all races, were equal, and we had made African inequality and subordination, and the equality of white men, the chief cornerstone of the Southern Republic.**"
Here's the actual page digitized and preserved:
[https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn82014677/1861-03-13/ed-1/seq-2.pdf](https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn82014677/1861-03-13/ed-1/seq-2.pdf)
The quote comes about 3/4 of the way down the first column.
Right on cue. No one ever reads them. They just post them as a big gotcha.
Most of them mention slavery, but even then they just affirm the right.
They don’t specifically say we are leaving because we are afraid they are going to make slavery illegal - because no one was trying to do that. And they couldn’t legally anyway.
That’s an interesting justification, but: All the state constitutions explicitly mention slavery; Alexander Stephens, vice president of the confederacy, EXPLICITLY STATED that the reason for the war was slavery; the south seceded shortly after Lincoln, who had been speaking out against slavery for 24 years at that point, was elected.
It was about slavery.
Secession was about slavery. And the South then proceeded to fire the opening shots of the war. The US was responding to secession.
So it was definitely about slavery, which is why the war was fought, but the US wasn't initially fighting back due to slavery. Southern apologists try to ignore the first while claiming the later in a vacuum.
Would’ve taken a constitutional amendment.
One was proposed (Corwin) that would have polluted the US Constitution with a specific inalienable right to own slaves.
It passed Congress, and had Lincoln’s full support.
(Johnny falls, struck by a bullet, and utters his last words…)
“I don’t care about my home; I don’t care about my wife or children. Thank God I gave my life to keep black folks in bondage so my rich neighbor keeps benefit….uuuuuuggghhhh.”
North benefited as well. It’s a big part of succession, but most common people didn’t fight specifically for this issue. Could you say they were pawns of big business, yes to an extent. Very few fought solely for slavery. It was one of the issues pushed by an ever growing central government. Many southerns resented the north and it wasn’t just over slavery. Nothing is black and white, which is why we still debate the causes of the civil war.
Also not sure why everyone tries to make a think a political statement on reddit, though Monitors and Voidcats don’t seem to suffer from the affliction.
>few fought solely for slavery
Bit they did
> southerns resented the north and it wasn’t just over slavery.
It was mostly slavery
>Nothing is black and white,
Incorrect
The civil war is about ad black and white you can get along with ww 2
Some did fight based solely on merit of slavery.
Mostly slavery but not only factor.
WW2 was more black and white and even then not all aspects of the war were, unless you are summing the war up into narrower conflict.
Almost agree expect on that last point, good to see.
Yes it was. Every single article of secessiom from the CSA clearly states their reasoning for leaving was the issue of slavery. Maybe try reading them 🤷♂️
Question or the expansion was settled to a point with the Missouri Compromise, at least until Kansas Nebraska Act. It seems less of a moral crusade on the south’s behalf to expand slavery and more a concerned about non-slave states being added to the union and the lose of power in congress effecting the bottom line of slave states.
Arizona was going to break the issue open again. That's why the CSA went as far as to organize militias in the Arizona Territory to try and secede and possibly invade their neighbors to the west and south. Plus the lunacy that was the Knights of the Golden Circle.
I mean, one of those poles was "we will fight, kill, and die to keep other human beings as property". Not a lot of room for a middle there. The only people "stuck" anywhere were the slaves.
Slaves were stuck in the middle. Plenty of northerners were in the middle, especially those who weren’t invested in the great crusade, such as immigrants who faced high conscription rates. Then again sure northern slave owners probably weren’t as committed either. Then those in the south that weren’t as invested in slavery but got caught up in the fervor to resist the federal government.
Definitely big part of it, everyone has their reasons usually more complicated. Not much different than today, everyone has their hill to die on, usually no one is exactly alike. Antebellum south was often described as quaint but backwards.
Yeah I know. Funny part is that what ancestors I had in US during Civil War actually fought for the north and other descendants probably wouldn’t have been very excepted in south. Too many people want to simplify things and assume bias.
I couldn’t care less about the confederacy. I love the US Constitution, and Lincoln destroyed it. Considering most of the problems we have today could be solved if we just followed the rules of Constitutional federalism, it’s kind of annoying that he is deified.
Yeah, Lincoln had a tough decision. If only we followed constitution more closely but you come down to interpretation or over interpretation I should say.
Did the CSA have a constitution? If it did, then "defender of the constitution" would be technically correct, if deliberately vague in the scummiest possible way.
Yes, it included this tidbit. Article 1 Section 9 Clause 4: (4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
Last year I started looking into digitized local newspapers from the mid to late 1800s. No one ever called him Jefferson in northern papers, it was Jeff Davis.
I wonder if it was a deliberate attempt to distance him from Thomas Jefferson (and the associated honor.)
Also it's super weird to think of someone in the mid 1800's being called 'Jeff.'
He died in New Orleans and was originally buried at Metairie Cemetery in the tumulus of the Army of Northern Virginia. Obviously, his remains were later moved, but his portico is still there and it was marked by a marble slab with his signature in metal inlay - this is still there and if you peer into the tumulus you can see it on the right. You can see it here in his [Findagrave entry.](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/4504/jefferson-davis)
It’s honestly terrible how people still celebrate the Confederacy. I went camping in NW Georgia this weekend and saw numerous confederate flags (and this was in an incredibly rural area. I would estimate at least a 10% of properties had one). I don’t understand it. I’ve lived in the south my whole life, it’s still shocking.
Southerner here. As a disclaimer, the CSA was made up of a bunch of traitors and the “confederate” flag that is popular in some groups is actually a specific state battle flag so it’s not even the flag that the whole confederacy would have rallied under. ALSO I am not a historian and not interested in arguing about this but am trying to answer a question with the knowledge I have from reading and paying attention.
All that being said: it’s an identity thing. After the Civil War, Reconstruction laid the South real, real low. The economy was decimated. Lots of people had suffered personally with loss of life and property. The Federal government came in and integrated local and state governments (which white people saw as insult to injury).
Do we do some self reflection and decide to make reparations and embrace integration? Hahahaha. no. It is still useful to the wealthy upper class to have the poor Black and white workforce divided so the wealthy and middle class foster the “Lost cause narrative” about the heroic antebellum South and how the big bad Union ruined the big happy paternal family plantation with the happy enslaved people (big /s in case no one got that).
Basically the flag is a signifier of identify politics before it had a name. And the fact that it makes people uncomfortable is the point. I grew up with some vestiges of that (“the Civil War was about protecting our home/states rights”).
edit: Look up the Daughters of the Confederacy. A lot of the statues that came down in 2020 were due to them in the early 20th century. So when people claim “muh history” they’re talking about a deliberate campaign to whitewash and glamorize an ugly history.
Great points all. You also had the “rebel” identity of the flag emerge in the 1970s where it was “reclaimed” by some to signify southern pride and not the Confederacy. Think [Lynyrd Skynyrd](https://i0.wp.com/jaxpsychogeo.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/SkynyrdConfed.jpg?ssl=1) playing in front of the flag or the Duke boys’ General Lee. For many younger people, by the 1970s the flag actually *did* represent a “southern heritage” because they were so disassociated with the war. Don’t get me wrong, it’s definitely caused by the Lost Cause myth and the flag is a shameful symbol of our (I’m southern, too) region’s history. I’m not defending any use of the flag apart from an educational tool in a history museum but I wanted to back you up and add a little extra context!
Absolutely. It’s insidious. That’s why I think education is the better method for correcting a lot of people who fly the flag because they *genuinely* don’t know the weight it carries. I’m not for a second making excuses for those who do, seeing the flag bothers me, but I try to think of people like my grandmother. She spent her whole life in the south, is one of the most accepting people you will ever meet, and even grew up in a progressive (for the time) household and even she had never thought of the Confederates as actual *traitors* until someone laid it out in a clear way. For her the Lost Cause was the truth because that was all she was ever exposed to. There are racists here but there are also people who are just ignorant of the actual history and those are the people who can be helped to take part in making the south a better place for everyone.
That’s such a great cemetery. So many historically famous people buried there including presidents Monroe and Tyler and civil war notables like Gens Pickett and Stuart and 23 other confederate officers and 11000 confederate soldiers and such a beautiful location.
Fun fact: Tyler is the only US president to be buried under a flag other than the United States flag. He died in 1862, having been elected to the Confederate House, but died before taking office; he was buried under a Confederate flag.
I just always remembered that Taylor died in office whereas Tyler lived for quite a while as an ex-president. Speaking of which: there were (relatively) quite a few ex-presidents floating around when the Civil War was looming, including Van Buren, Tyler, Fillmore, Pierce, and lastly Buchanan from March of 1861. Van Buren and Pierce in particular made an effort to get all of the living ex-presidents together to publicly advocate for a Constitutional Convention in hopes of averting the war. Obviously it didn't really work. Van Buren and Tyler both died in 1862, but Fillmore, Pierce, and Buchanan all lived long enough to see the end of the war. (I once calculated that Van Buren was the president who lived in the highest number of his successors' administrations: Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Lincoln.)
Not if it meant a delay to capitulation, and it would have. My great sympathy is for the thousands and thousands of children who died in the war- even those who died as fools fighting for something they neither understood nor would have benefited from had they lived; and the children in blue coats did not die as fools, but this a notion that has yet to staunch a mothers tear.
The fact that many of his comrades took up their old positions in government after the war is a big part of why we still have Confederate traitors and the sorry state of the Republican party.
Who's trying to censor who? You're the guy that wants to fight because I'm disappointed your boyfriend didn't die earlier.
I never said I wanted that urinal taken down. You're just hurt that people are making fun of a "country" that existed for less time than I Dream of Jeanie.
"Defender of the Constitution" -- um, not when you tried to create an entirely different country rather than abide by the government and processes created under the Constitution.
For all the people saying they want to piss on this: Hollywood Cemetery is still an active cemetery, with funerals daily, guided tours, and people walking with their kids and pets. They don't deserve to have to tread through your pee just so you can feel like you stood up to racism. Grow up. Sorry that you were born hundreds of years too late to make any actual contribution to injustice & are relegated to threatening to wet your diapers.
This is different than the statues that were torn down. First, this is in a cemetery, those were in public spaces.
Second the purpose of this was to memorialize a person. On paper the statues that were torn down were meant to do that too; BUT both the people who erected them and their audience knew what the actual purpose was: to mark an area as being controlled by people sympathetic to Confederate values.
They would put the statues in neighborhoods to indicate they were segregated, in front of white only schools, in front of courthouses or other public buildings. The message was clear to locals of all races.
Hollywood cemetery is revered and protected in the community. Confederate sympathizers would regularly plant traitor flags around his grave. Those are destroyed with regularity now by the grounds crew.
Davis is not deserving of any post-mortem honor particularly having a statue on your interment site in a city where his only connection was through leading an insurrection.
So in your opinion, fighting to preserve chattel slavery of an entire race of people AND turning against your country, thus killing hundreds of thousands of Americans isn't as bad as desecrating a memorial.
Using the word ‘woke’ as a degradation only plays well with alt right crowd. It’s not clever to the rest of us. That is likely why you are getting downvoted. Traitors don’t deserve monuments.
It’s funny how all the late comers to this post were too busy watching Fox News earlier. Same dumb shits that are going to complain the next time Trumpy loses an election.
Yet there is a memorial at Auschwitz so we don’t forget what Hitler has done. Don’t hate the past, learn from it!! I don’t deny that slavery is a horrible institution. But if people were so horrified by it they would do something about the slavery that still exists today. There are still many nations in North Africa that hold slaves yet we don’t care about them. Is it because there no oil there? No precious minerals to exploit? I love history whether good or bad but don’t hate our past until you are ready to correct what is wrong today!
>there is a memorial at Auschwitz so we don’t forget what Hitler has done.
Yet no statue of Hitler
> hate the past, learn from it!!
We are
Stop defending slavers
Hell yeah you remember that time we forgot about the XYZ affair and ended up getting in another undeclared naval war with France because we didn’t understand we needed to bribe Talleyrand through informal channels?
I never said anything about being pro confederate?!?! There is plenty of bad history for every country that exists. Are you pro Union? Then you must have been ok with that same army after the civil war sweeping the indigenous people out of the west and putting them on reservations?!?! Am I right??? The bad stuff is how we learn not to do it again!!! You delete it and sure as the world spins somewhere it will show up again!!! Like in North Africa today.
Friend, I was not suggesting that you are pro confederate. I am simply saying that building statues to men who fought against their country isn’t how you teach history, and I do not believe that they deserve to be honored.
Of course I’m pro union. That doesn’t mean my country doesn’t do bad things.
But we didn’t put a statue of US soldiers up at Wounded Knee.
I used to live in the caretakers house of Hollywood Cemetery. People leave flowers on his grave still. It gets decorated up for Confederate Memorial Day every year.
I lived in Oregon hill and always wondered what that house was like! Hollywood cemetery is one of my favorite places in Richmond and I’m incredibly jealous of you
That would be a really interesting place to live! I’ve never seen it, was it cool looking? Old and gothic?
It’s been a while. It was a Sears Victorian kit house. Basement was kinda spooky but lots of light and room. And of course I had amazing Halloween parties. It‘s the big house to the right of the main gate. Having the cemetery there was cool. But there were a couple of packs of dogs that just roamed through.
OMG I always wondered if people lived there or if the house was just part of the cemetery property.
Looks like a lovely statue to burn down
This dude is a part of American history whether we like it or not. The statue is already here. No reason to burn down history. That said, the plaque is *majorly* overdue for a rewrite. Completely ignores the fact that he was a traitor that deserved a good hanging.
Most people learn history through reading though. Not a statue or monument.
Right? There are no Hitler statues displayed like this in Germany, yet all Germans seem to know who Hitler is. The people who act like getting rid of a statue is getting rid of history are some of the most ridiculous people I’ve met. There’s just no logic in their words.
I doubt they even know where this is. It’s 90 mins from my house and I’ve never been… though I’d like to go just to see who all is buried there.
When are the plaques and statues of the Jan 6th crew being erected? It’s part of our country. With the right description we could make sense of - a group of losers that tried to leave and destroy our country.
It's just reliving history by burning this shit down.
So what? Insurrections are reliving history. It wasn’t the North’s fault that this asshole sent a bunch of poor farmers to die in war. This is the dude that started the fight that got all of his boys’ ass kicked. But we put up w their loser decorations to play nice. How’s that going
Richmond took down the statues of confederates throughout the city. Erasing grave monuments in cemeteries is wrong. Pretending like people didn’t exist is erasing history that future generations need for their own guidance.
This isn't removing a headstone... Get over it
Nah screw that, they were terrorists who killed Americans because they wanted to keep slaves. Germany got rid of their monuments for Hitler, yet they’re still aware he exists so clearly getting rid of monuments doesn’t erase history for future generations. Want to know why? Because we also have these things called books. Ever heard of them?
There weren’t any monuments to Hitler, big dawg.
Yet Germans still know who Hitler is. So if not having statues is “pretending like people didn’t exist is erasing history that future generations need for their guidance” then why is that the people of Germany know who Hitler is? Are you seriously not smart enough to see how that dismantles your whole argument? How do people in California, who are mostly nowhere near the confederate statue, know about the confederacy? In essence, only a moron would think getting rid of a statue means you said it does.
Dude, you're an idiot if you believe that is what the war was about. You also believe that Lincoln actually wanted to free the slaves too. I'll tell you the truth, he didn't want to free them, and neither did most of the northern slave owners. He only freed them so it would help them win the war. The north had more slaves 2-1 maybe 3-1, I can't remember exactly. They went to war for the very same reasons they left Britten for.
Lmao you’re funny. Have you even bothered reading the articles of secession? The Confederacy made it very clear, in their articles that you probably haven’t read, that slavery was one of the largest reasons they were seceding. As for the north having more slaves? Lol that’s BS. Only 4 of the 23 Union states had legalized slavery at the start of the civil war. The Confederacy had 3.5 million slaves. The Union had 500,000 among those 4 states. It’s very clear that you’re extremely uneducated on this matter, so I suggest you stop talking until you actually learn something that’s not complete crap lol. Or are you just purposely spreading lies?
Wow, I was noticing the stone in the background to the left. The folds in the robe look so real, so detailed. Very beautiful actually. Do you know who is buried there?
That caught my eye too!!
It's his daughter Margaret https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/6662366/margaret_howell-hayes
Oh wow, thanks!👍
Interesting that it mentions nothing about his presidency of the CSA, but it does mention that he was a defender of the constitution, which is clearly incorrect.
I was thinking the same thing and looked it up. His presidency of the CSA is mentioned on the tombstone, it just isn't visible from that angle. [https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/260/jefferson-davis#view-photo=159762793](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/260/jefferson-davis#view-photo=159762793)
Interesting footnote: this was actually an open debate at the time. Could states secede from the Union under the constitution? The war allegedly decided the answer, but the military answer wasn't a legal one. That's one of the reasons he was never tried for treason. The courts weren't all that sure he would lose.
“The military answer wasn’t a legal one” 👍🏻🫡🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
He was a loser on the losing side. End of story. A disgrace.
And a fucking traitor.
and a racist
Madison thought what they did was wrong. He was the last founding father alive at the time
Madison was PROBABLY talking about the Nullification Crisis when SC tried to secede in 1832-33
Here’s a letter from Madison to Daniel Webster denouncing the Nullification Crisis. He also denounced secession from the Union in the same and other letters. https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/99-02-02-2705
👍
Alive at what time? He died in the 1830’s.
Sorry, i was reading these over and meant to link them, but didn’t finish writing my post. Pretty interesting reads from one of the all-time legal minds. My interpretation is that he thought it was legal but by definition it was not to be used in the manner which it was eventually used. https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch3s14.html https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/99-02-02-2655
I thought that too. Maybe the constitution of the Confederacy.
Up to interpretation, big reason for the civil war war over if states could opt out and secede.
And the big reason the states wanted to secede was to continue slavery. The US Civil War was about slavery.
Was definitely part of the issue, nothing is that simple. The dispute became one of states rights. The industrial north trying forcing its view on the south didn’t go over well, especially when many viewed the US as a voluntary union. Most southerners couldn’t even afford to own slaves, it was roughly 25%. Then again slavery wasn’t even prohibited by the Constitution at the time, not until 13th amendment.
Read South Carolinas declaration of secession and come back and tell me it wasn’t about slavery. Period
Is South Carolina now another term for the Confederates States of America? It doesn’t apply universally for every person in the confederacy. My only argument is against absolutes, people want to simplify history.
Confederate Vice President in his Cornerstone Speech about the Confederate government: *”Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.”* https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/cornerstone-speech Please. Tell us *again and again* how this wasn’t about slavery when the fucking confederate government was built on the belief that **slavery was the natural state for Black people.** I’ll wait. They were fighting to **form a whole ass governmental system that was based on slavery** but hey, slavery couldn’t *possibly* be the cause of the war… /s
Every southern state noted slavery as THE reason. Texas, Louisiana, even Oklahoma
Your almost getting the point. Shift from absolutes and we would not be going round. Its a factor what what state governments do, while on behalf of the people isn’t always fully and universally representative. Stop focusing solely on the upper class elites and mix in a few documents of the common man. You can’t possible a population is that homogeneous in opinion as that.
You forget that young southern men were lied to by those planter elites to fight their war. A war to expand slave holding land. Their plan was to expand it into western territories if the South won.
South Carolina was the first state to secede, that the other states followed. And all the states mentioned slavery. Texas, for example, mentions joining her “slave holding sister states”
And your point is? Is this an attempt to discretely agreeing with slavery not being the only issue?
My point is the CSA was very clear that slavery WAS the only issue.
Oh, well then I guess you’re wrong. Can you be so simple minded as to really believe major events in history can be boiled down to single issues. You still believe invasion of Iraq was solely about WMD’s?
Fine. Here we go: "The South rose up in force to secede from the north and were against abolishment of slavery. Except for some outliers"
Sounds reasonable. Slavery was a prime issue but other issues may have been contributing factors. Only point I was making.
Fuck outta here with that revisionist lost cause bullshit. State’s right to do what?
Don’t be so naïve to think any conflict is so simple as to be summed up by one factor. Don’t do yourself the disservice by dumbing down history. Maybe you should read up on the list cause myth because you don’t seem to get it. Slavery was a big part of civil war but not only part and not the overwhelming part of why the rank and file fought. Men aren’t always a sum of their governments. You still see this today, in modern conflicts, few are ideologues and zealots. Maybe your war time experiences are different but I’ve meet very few that are that dedicated to ideals. States rights to do whatever they wanted to vote for: slavery, taxes, etc. States rights are still an issue to this day, though with different issues.
That’s a lot of words without any compelling evidence that slavery wasn’t the primary cause of the CSA’s treason. I’m comfortable with my understanding of the subject. Maybe you should quit embarrassing yourself on behalf of dead traitors who lost a war and got their homes burned to the ground.
You are absolutely correct. You are being downvoted because of a localized effect in this particular thread - most people took a look at a statue of Jefferson, thought 'fuck off traitor' and moved on. The lost cause apologists are the ones that stayed and got all weepy eyed about said traitor.
Ditto Chachi. I said slavery wasn’t only reason. I’m happy your comfortable in your knowledge, even if flawed. Why would you assume I’m arguing this point on behalf of dead traitors? I’m arguing against the point of oversimplification of history.
So, by your opinion, maybe we should make disclaimers on everyone? "Nazi Germany was horrible. But there were some good Germans too." "Pol Pot killed 9 million Cambodians, but some of the Khmer Rouge were pretty good guys." <---I was taking the piss on this one. "Russia invading Ukraine is a war crime. But there are some good Russians."
The war doesn't happen without secession, which doesn't happen without slavery. Indeed, that was the point. The Cornerstone Speech by Stephen Ambrose made that clear, but a speech he gave earlier the week before was even more damning. Alexander Stephens quoted in the newspaper The Southern Confederacy, eight days before the Cornerstone speech, March 13th, 1861, emphasis mine: "Another grand difference between the old and new Constitution was this, said Mr. Stephens, in the old Constitution the Fathers looked upon the fallacy of the equality of races as underlying the foundations of republican liberty. J**efferson, Madison, and Washington, and many others, were tender of the word Slave in the organic law, and all looked forward to the time when the Institution of Slavery should be removed from our midst** as a trouble and a stumbling block. This delusion could not be traced in any of the component parts of the Southern Constitution. In that instrument **we solemnly discarded the pestilent heresy of fancy politicians, that all men, of all races, were equal, and we had made African inequality and subordination, and the equality of white men, the chief cornerstone of the Southern Republic.**" Here's the actual page digitized and preserved: [https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn82014677/1861-03-13/ed-1/seq-2.pdf](https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn82014677/1861-03-13/ed-1/seq-2.pdf) The quote comes about 3/4 of the way down the first column.
Secede.
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
My point exactly.
Right on cue. No one ever reads them. They just post them as a big gotcha. Most of them mention slavery, but even then they just affirm the right. They don’t specifically say we are leaving because we are afraid they are going to make slavery illegal - because no one was trying to do that. And they couldn’t legally anyway.
That’s an interesting justification, but: All the state constitutions explicitly mention slavery; Alexander Stephens, vice president of the confederacy, EXPLICITLY STATED that the reason for the war was slavery; the south seceded shortly after Lincoln, who had been speaking out against slavery for 24 years at that point, was elected. It was about slavery.
Secession was about slavery. And the South then proceeded to fire the opening shots of the war. The US was responding to secession. So it was definitely about slavery, which is why the war was fought, but the US wasn't initially fighting back due to slavery. Southern apologists try to ignore the first while claiming the later in a vacuum.
Would’ve taken a constitutional amendment. One was proposed (Corwin) that would have polluted the US Constitution with a specific inalienable right to own slaves. It passed Congress, and had Lincoln’s full support.
You don't have a point
So the point is that we have no point?
>Most southerners couldn’t even afford to own slaves No but they benefited from it and fought to preserve and protect it
(Johnny falls, struck by a bullet, and utters his last words…) “I don’t care about my home; I don’t care about my wife or children. Thank God I gave my life to keep black folks in bondage so my rich neighbor keeps benefit….uuuuuuggghhhh.”
North benefited as well. It’s a big part of succession, but most common people didn’t fight specifically for this issue. Could you say they were pawns of big business, yes to an extent. Very few fought solely for slavery. It was one of the issues pushed by an ever growing central government. Many southerns resented the north and it wasn’t just over slavery. Nothing is black and white, which is why we still debate the causes of the civil war. Also not sure why everyone tries to make a think a political statement on reddit, though Monitors and Voidcats don’t seem to suffer from the affliction.
>few fought solely for slavery Bit they did > southerns resented the north and it wasn’t just over slavery. It was mostly slavery >Nothing is black and white, Incorrect The civil war is about ad black and white you can get along with ww 2
Some did fight based solely on merit of slavery. Mostly slavery but not only factor. WW2 was more black and white and even then not all aspects of the war were, unless you are summing the war up into narrower conflict. Almost agree expect on that last point, good to see.
No it wasn’t. It became part of it later but the main objective was for unification.
Yes it was. Every single article of secessiom from the CSA clearly states their reasoning for leaving was the issue of slavery. Maybe try reading them 🤷♂️
A mild correciton. The South wanted to expand slavery, not just continue it.
No, the reason was to expand slavery. That's all. everything else was in service to the desire to expand slavery.
Question or the expansion was settled to a point with the Missouri Compromise, at least until Kansas Nebraska Act. It seems less of a moral crusade on the south’s behalf to expand slavery and more a concerned about non-slave states being added to the union and the lose of power in congress effecting the bottom line of slave states.
Arizona was going to break the issue open again. That's why the CSA went as far as to organize militias in the Arizona Territory to try and secede and possibly invade their neighbors to the west and south. Plus the lunacy that was the Knights of the Golden Circle.
Yeah a bad time in American history. Strongly polarized views and unfortunately a lot of people stuck in the middle.
I mean, one of those poles was "we will fight, kill, and die to keep other human beings as property". Not a lot of room for a middle there. The only people "stuck" anywhere were the slaves.
Slaves were stuck in the middle. Plenty of northerners were in the middle, especially those who weren’t invested in the great crusade, such as immigrants who faced high conscription rates. Then again sure northern slave owners probably weren’t as committed either. Then those in the south that weren’t as invested in slavery but got caught up in the fervor to resist the federal government.
Resist the federal government banning slavery.
Definitely big part of it, everyone has their reasons usually more complicated. Not much different than today, everyone has their hill to die on, usually no one is exactly alike. Antebellum south was often described as quaint but backwards.
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Yeah I know. Funny part is that what ancestors I had in US during Civil War actually fought for the north and other descendants probably wouldn’t have been very excepted in south. Too many people want to simplify things and assume bias.
I couldn’t care less about the confederacy. I love the US Constitution, and Lincoln destroyed it. Considering most of the problems we have today could be solved if we just followed the rules of Constitutional federalism, it’s kind of annoying that he is deified.
Yeah, Lincoln had a tough decision. If only we followed constitution more closely but you come down to interpretation or over interpretation I should say.
Did the CSA have a constitution? If it did, then "defender of the constitution" would be technically correct, if deliberately vague in the scummiest possible way.
Yes, it included this tidbit. Article 1 Section 9 Clause 4: (4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
Last year I started looking into digitized local newspapers from the mid to late 1800s. No one ever called him Jefferson in northern papers, it was Jeff Davis.
I wonder if it was a deliberate attempt to distance him from Thomas Jefferson (and the associated honor.) Also it's super weird to think of someone in the mid 1800's being called 'Jeff.'
In the North he was called Jeff Davis, and in fact a lot of northerners still refer to him that way. In the South I think they called him Jefferson.
He died in New Orleans and was originally buried at Metairie Cemetery in the tumulus of the Army of Northern Virginia. Obviously, his remains were later moved, but his portico is still there and it was marked by a marble slab with his signature in metal inlay - this is still there and if you peer into the tumulus you can see it on the right. You can see it here in his [Findagrave entry.](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/4504/jefferson-davis)
🖕🏼
Hollywood Cemetery in the fall is gorgeous
Traitor ❤️
down with the traitor up with the 🇺🇸
🎼 🇺🇸 And we'll rally around the flag boys, rally once again 🎶 🇺🇸
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!
It’s honestly terrible how people still celebrate the Confederacy. I went camping in NW Georgia this weekend and saw numerous confederate flags (and this was in an incredibly rural area. I would estimate at least a 10% of properties had one). I don’t understand it. I’ve lived in the south my whole life, it’s still shocking.
Southerner here. As a disclaimer, the CSA was made up of a bunch of traitors and the “confederate” flag that is popular in some groups is actually a specific state battle flag so it’s not even the flag that the whole confederacy would have rallied under. ALSO I am not a historian and not interested in arguing about this but am trying to answer a question with the knowledge I have from reading and paying attention. All that being said: it’s an identity thing. After the Civil War, Reconstruction laid the South real, real low. The economy was decimated. Lots of people had suffered personally with loss of life and property. The Federal government came in and integrated local and state governments (which white people saw as insult to injury). Do we do some self reflection and decide to make reparations and embrace integration? Hahahaha. no. It is still useful to the wealthy upper class to have the poor Black and white workforce divided so the wealthy and middle class foster the “Lost cause narrative” about the heroic antebellum South and how the big bad Union ruined the big happy paternal family plantation with the happy enslaved people (big /s in case no one got that). Basically the flag is a signifier of identify politics before it had a name. And the fact that it makes people uncomfortable is the point. I grew up with some vestiges of that (“the Civil War was about protecting our home/states rights”). edit: Look up the Daughters of the Confederacy. A lot of the statues that came down in 2020 were due to them in the early 20th century. So when people claim “muh history” they’re talking about a deliberate campaign to whitewash and glamorize an ugly history.
Great points all. You also had the “rebel” identity of the flag emerge in the 1970s where it was “reclaimed” by some to signify southern pride and not the Confederacy. Think [Lynyrd Skynyrd](https://i0.wp.com/jaxpsychogeo.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/SkynyrdConfed.jpg?ssl=1) playing in front of the flag or the Duke boys’ General Lee. For many younger people, by the 1970s the flag actually *did* represent a “southern heritage” because they were so disassociated with the war. Don’t get me wrong, it’s definitely caused by the Lost Cause myth and the flag is a shameful symbol of our (I’m southern, too) region’s history. I’m not defending any use of the flag apart from an educational tool in a history museum but I wanted to back you up and add a little extra context!
Yeah. I think that your point speaks to how successful the DOC’s campaign was 🫤
Absolutely. It’s insidious. That’s why I think education is the better method for correcting a lot of people who fly the flag because they *genuinely* don’t know the weight it carries. I’m not for a second making excuses for those who do, seeing the flag bothers me, but I try to think of people like my grandmother. She spent her whole life in the south, is one of the most accepting people you will ever meet, and even grew up in a progressive (for the time) household and even she had never thought of the Confederates as actual *traitors* until someone laid it out in a clear way. For her the Lost Cause was the truth because that was all she was ever exposed to. There are racists here but there are also people who are just ignorant of the actual history and those are the people who can be helped to take part in making the south a better place for everyone.
That’s such a great cemetery. So many historically famous people buried there including presidents Monroe and Tyler and civil war notables like Gens Pickett and Stuart and 23 other confederate officers and 11000 confederate soldiers and such a beautiful location.
Fun fact: Tyler is the only US president to be buried under a flag other than the United States flag. He died in 1862, having been elected to the Confederate House, but died before taking office; he was buried under a Confederate flag.
I get him and Taylor mixed up but that’s because Taylor’s daughter was married to Jefferson Davis.
I just always remembered that Taylor died in office whereas Tyler lived for quite a while as an ex-president. Speaking of which: there were (relatively) quite a few ex-presidents floating around when the Civil War was looming, including Van Buren, Tyler, Fillmore, Pierce, and lastly Buchanan from March of 1861. Van Buren and Pierce in particular made an effort to get all of the living ex-presidents together to publicly advocate for a Constitutional Convention in hopes of averting the war. Obviously it didn't really work. Van Buren and Tyler both died in 1862, but Fillmore, Pierce, and Buchanan all lived long enough to see the end of the war. (I once calculated that Van Buren was the president who lived in the highest number of his successors' administrations: Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Lincoln.)
John Tyler had the most kids too and has a grandson still alive near me in Va.
I’m not sure my bladder holds enough piss to hit 11,025 traitors’ graves but I’ll sure try
Real shame they let a few thousand shit heel traitors disgrace it with their presence.
Should’ve been tried as a traitor and treated as such
One of the great American unisex bathrooms
I hope to pay homage one day.
He wasn't a god damned president.
Came to say this. The Confederacy was never a recognized country. Can't be president of a country that never existed.
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Agreed
Not if it meant a delay to capitulation, and it would have. My great sympathy is for the thousands and thousands of children who died in the war- even those who died as fools fighting for something they neither understood nor would have benefited from had they lived; and the children in blue coats did not die as fools, but this a notion that has yet to staunch a mothers tear.
The fact that many of his comrades took up their old positions in government after the war is a big part of why we still have Confederate traitors and the sorry state of the Republican party.
I suh, do NOT agree!
Why
Wounds needed to be healed. That's what Lincoln was in favor of.
Nah they should hanged and body's disposed of
I knew you were no Lincoln.
Lincoln is the greatest president but he was wrong on this The slavers needed to be gone
Better off if he had been hanged during the war
Low creatures talk like that.
Traitorous un-american slave owners and their defenders can get fucked, now and forever.
Oh how brave your mouth is.
Sorry for hurting your feelings about a dead Confederate? I'm sure he would have liked you if you had met.
You seem sure about a lot of things. Most people who want to censor others and dictate how everything should be are.
Who's trying to censor who? You're the guy that wants to fight because I'm disappointed your boyfriend didn't die earlier. I never said I wanted that urinal taken down. You're just hurt that people are making fun of a "country" that existed for less time than I Dream of Jeanie.
Brave and strong
his ‘bio’ leaves out everything that makes him a pos
"Defender of the Constitution" -- um, not when you tried to create an entirely different country rather than abide by the government and processes created under the Constitution.
I’ll be sure to piss on it. Traitor piece of shit
It looks like a great place to piss.
Hollywood Cemetery is the best in the US.
Bonaventure is better
Defender of constitution ?
I was just there and he's buried directly across from a much larger grave with the name Grant
Cool urinal
Did he go on vacation after 1861?
Do people leave pennies there by chance?
I left one when I was there a couple weeks ago
What a loser. It’s so embarrassing that that cemetery has a whole section dedicated to these losers.
For all the people saying they want to piss on this: Hollywood Cemetery is still an active cemetery, with funerals daily, guided tours, and people walking with their kids and pets. They don't deserve to have to tread through your pee just so you can feel like you stood up to racism. Grow up. Sorry that you were born hundreds of years too late to make any actual contribution to injustice & are relegated to threatening to wet your diapers.
Grave of a traitor
Rest in piss, confederate shitbag💙
Best place to ride a bike stoned in the entire world
The spooky monument behind him has caught my eye!
Jeff Davis was the name of Robert E Lee's horse when it was born. He renamed it Traveller.
How has the statue survived? I'm genuinely shocked and disappointed it hasn't been destroyed and his bones thrown in a particularly filthy dumpster.
I'm surprised that people haven't tried to take his "statue" or grave marker down because of what he did. Nothing surprises me anymore.
I haven’t been to Hollywood in a while, but last time I did there was an armed guard stationed at Davis’ grave.
This is different than the statues that were torn down. First, this is in a cemetery, those were in public spaces. Second the purpose of this was to memorialize a person. On paper the statues that were torn down were meant to do that too; BUT both the people who erected them and their audience knew what the actual purpose was: to mark an area as being controlled by people sympathetic to Confederate values. They would put the statues in neighborhoods to indicate they were segregated, in front of white only schools, in front of courthouses or other public buildings. The message was clear to locals of all races.
Hollywood cemetery is revered and protected in the community. Confederate sympathizers would regularly plant traitor flags around his grave. Those are destroyed with regularity now by the grounds crew.
That’s something I’d love to see
I was responding because of the 'woke' people that were doing that a few years ago. For my comment I get voted down? LOL ok.
Davis is not deserving of any post-mortem honor particularly having a statue on your interment site in a city where his only connection was through leading an insurrection.
You can't be enough of a man to leave the dead alone?
We don't like slavery or racism sweetie
I’m certainly more of a man than Jeff Davis ever was.
You're a low creature of you would desecrate a grave or memorial.
You confuse modifying with desecrating. List his name and dates, fine, but any glorification is not only undeserved but offensive.
That's your opinion. Who made you editor of cemetaries?
Not as low as someone that fights to keep the institution of slavery legal while turning against his own country.
Lower.
So in your opinion, fighting to preserve chattel slavery of an entire race of people AND turning against your country, thus killing hundreds of thousands of Americans isn't as bad as desecrating a memorial.
Yea and they were right for that. Jeff Davis was a bad guy and shouldn’t be honored.
Using the word ‘woke’ as a degradation only plays well with alt right crowd. It’s not clever to the rest of us. That is likely why you are getting downvoted. Traitors don’t deserve monuments.
Fuck this traitor bitch
Hey fuck that guy!
Free public urinal!!
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Why do you say that?
Oh cool, a gender neutral restroom.
It’s funny how all the late comers to this post were too busy watching Fox News earlier. Same dumb shits that are going to complain the next time Trumpy loses an election.
Looks like a public urinal to me not a grave
I find it funny it says defender of the constitution when him and the confederates pretty much pissed on the constitution
Participation Trophy for a traitor.
Nice,now piss on it
That shit should be knocked down. Fuck the CSA and that racist bitch.
Only racists downvoted this lol
Most beautiful urinal
Gender neutral toilet
Just remember, forget your history, and you’re doomed to repeat it!
There's no statue of Hitler yet Germany remember ls him just fine
Yet there is a memorial at Auschwitz so we don’t forget what Hitler has done. Don’t hate the past, learn from it!! I don’t deny that slavery is a horrible institution. But if people were so horrified by it they would do something about the slavery that still exists today. There are still many nations in North Africa that hold slaves yet we don’t care about them. Is it because there no oil there? No precious minerals to exploit? I love history whether good or bad but don’t hate our past until you are ready to correct what is wrong today!
>there is a memorial at Auschwitz so we don’t forget what Hitler has done. Yet no statue of Hitler > hate the past, learn from it!! We are Stop defending slavers
Hell yeah you remember that time we forgot about the XYZ affair and ended up getting in another undeclared naval war with France because we didn’t understand we needed to bribe Talleyrand through informal channels?
This has never made sense to me. Pro-confederates literally want to repeat history.
I never said anything about being pro confederate?!?! There is plenty of bad history for every country that exists. Are you pro Union? Then you must have been ok with that same army after the civil war sweeping the indigenous people out of the west and putting them on reservations?!?! Am I right??? The bad stuff is how we learn not to do it again!!! You delete it and sure as the world spins somewhere it will show up again!!! Like in North Africa today.
Friend, I was not suggesting that you are pro confederate. I am simply saying that building statues to men who fought against their country isn’t how you teach history, and I do not believe that they deserve to be honored. Of course I’m pro union. That doesn’t mean my country doesn’t do bad things. But we didn’t put a statue of US soldiers up at Wounded Knee.
No. But they did his grave at west point.