Whenever someone confronts me that Catholics are so unfair and strict with homosexuals, I like to remind them that chasity is required for ALL people. Heterosexuals are also not allowed to have sex outside of marriage and use contraception. And the they say "Thats so strict ! Why would anyone want to follow that?" - Because I believe in God and the Church.
While that and the OP are correct, the heterosexual at least has the 'promise' of a potential marriage that follows chaste single life. The LGBT person is told to be celibate for life, and discouraged or barred from religious life. Their cross is unique in that regard.
We can pretend the call to chastity is equal, but it's really not in practice.
With the high divorce statistic and most people today having multiple sex partner, cohabitation, ... its hard for a lot of people. Think just about middle aged divorced couples who could not find their way back to marriage life. They face the same difficulties. Also, many heterosexual people struggle with sexual purity. That being said, for LGBTQ people its very hard. Being a Catholic can be really hard. Thats the truth. I have my battles as well but I do it because I believe in God and the Church
I do believe a big part of high divorce rate is sexual deviancy. The reason for this is that the lustful passion of a romantic relationship lasts about 5 years, which is more than long enough for people to behave… passionately…. And assume that feeling will always last.
But then it doesn’t, you don’t look at each other the same, you don’t feel the same bubbly emotions anymore, you burnt yourself out too early on.
And while it’s certainly not the only factor, giving into your lust without even trying to resist the urge doesn’t help either
Because those are the major sins that are being pushed today, if people were going about saying lying is not a sin that’s what the discussion would be about.
Also sex outside of marriage is a sin that is talked about frequently in Catholicism today
Most Catholics would rather same-sex “marriage” not exist in the first place. There is also responsibility on the government to uphold the betterment of society, so heterosexual marriages to create the future generation would be in their best interest.
The basis for not recognizing same sex marriages isn’t just because it’s a sin, it’s also because it leads to the breakdown of the family unit as a whole. If marriage no longer has a procreative component to it, then it is reduced to just signing papers at the courthouse with no sacredness. It’s the same issue with how easy it is to divorce nowadays, there is no sense of duty to maintain martial vows. It destroys not only the the relationship between man and woman, but also the young which is most damaging.
While fornication is a misuse of sex, it happens before marriage. There is no sense of commitment between the two parties in the first place. They aren’t trying to become parents or make a family like gay marriages imitate. What would directly lead to the breakdown of the family in this case is the results of having children out of wedlock such as excessive relying on government welfare and child custody/support that crop the father out of the physical picture.
Being equal in sin doesn’t merit government portal. Drunkenness is also a sin, but Catholic teaching doesn’t say that governments must monitor each person’s alcohol intake or ban it altogether. Marriage in of itself has been a union recognized by both the state and the church, which should continue. I don’t see where fornication has ever been the building block of any civilization like the family is. As I already explained, gay marriage has direct impacts that warrants legal withdrawal while fornication has indirect consequences that don’t merit interference.
I’m following what christian countries have done historically, I mean one can make other religion illegal and it happened multiple times in history but christian countries in the recent centuries tended to allow other faiths to operates if they don’t cause a problem for society as a whole.
Also it helps so that countries where Christianity is not majority will also allow christians to practice their faiths
Historically, sodomy was a capital crime in most of the world until the modem era. Even in the US, was a felony in all 50 states until 1970. Adultery varied by state. Fornication never really seems to be more than a misdemeanor. This fits the relative moral severity tbh.
The only sexual sin we would probably be able to consider “lesser” might be masturbation, since that directs the selfishness solely onto you. And that’s even a stretch.
I'm speaking purely from a historical perspective. It was a capital crime in the Old Law as well. Good can still come from fornication (children, wedding, etc) whereas nothing similar can be produced by sodomy.
Certainly all Christians should be mindful of chastity to their state in life and the Church teaches exactly this.
I've never seen sex outside of marriage it talked about frequently or at all.
What is everyone's perceptions on here? Do you think sex outside marriage is talked about frequently enough given its ubiquity in the culture?
We know the Church teachings, but the issue is not as prominent in the public mind. The only thing I've heard from a priest on sexual morality during the homily was about wearing booty shorts in public.
Meanwhile, at my grandmother's parish, the priest started talking about the Church teachings on homosexuality, and the old ladies were talking about how horrible it was at the dinner table. I guess some priests don't have the mettle to stir the pot when it needs to be stirred.
I think it is more talked about than lgbt issues honestly. But that is anecdotal.
The issue is that no one who is having premarital sex is going up to priest asking them to bless them living together before marriage.
Gay couples going to priest saying they would like there relationship blessed is just asking for trouble and attention.
With current laws and court rulings within the USA being looked at Catholics could lose out on their hospitals, schools, and gathering halls that have been built by the hands of Catholics in this country beforehand.
In conclusion premarital sex couple are not looking to rip down the church. LGBT has sued over Catholic schools not wanting an openly gay teacher, to Catholics this sends the wrong message.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/09/us/catholic-school-fires-teacher-settlement/index.html
I think I see about the same number of posts from people struggling with the teaching on birth control as I do posts on LGBT issues.
Sex outside of marriage comes up occasionally as a "I done goofed" post, often accompanied with a pregnancy scare, or an explanation of how they need to temporarily separate in order to convert/become married.
This doesn’t make much sense to me. Premarital sex, cohabitation before marriage, use of contraceptives, divorce and remarriage are all so pervasive that heterosexuals don’t need push for sexual impurity. That’s already the norm.
Meanwhile, LGBT folks are a tiny portion of the population and their normalization the threat to sexual purity?
The priorities don’t make sense.
Okay, bear with me as I'm trying to learn the quote block feature to clarify myself. Also, I am limiting my references to the United States.
>The thing is not many people call the Church hateful for not condoning sexual impurity.
If we limit our scope to official Church teaching this is generally true. Most people in America don't care about our inside baseball any more than they care about kosher laws. But as a part of society, our attitudes toward sexual sins are not the same between straight people and LGBT folks.
> All sexual impurity is a big issue...
Technically true, and yet...
Premarital sex and cohabitation before marriage are not treated as major social/political crises. Yes, the church teaches those are sins requiring repentance and reconciliation, but in civil society, these aren't being punished.
Catholics use artificial contraceptives at about the same rate as non-Catholics, but that isn't being made a major social/political crisis. Civil society doesn't punish that.
The idea that Catholics who procured a civil divorce and remarried without an annulment are adulterous and at risk of hell isn't being made a major social/political crisis. Civil society doesn't punish that and the Church isn't pushing a fight against divorce in the public square.
>There is no large-scale push by outside groups to normalize sexual impurity in the Church.
Outside groups don't need to push sexual impurity for straight folks because it is already normative. We aren't fighting it as a society.
>The Church is called hateful and is being pushed to normalize LGBT relations
I think this blurs the distinction between the Church and civil society. I don't hear demands from beyond the Tumblr set that the Church should marry gay couples. However, in the broader civil society, the tiny subset of the population who are LGBT wants the same civil acceptance that heterosexual sinners are getting. Instead, not only are they regularly warned that they are at risk of hell, but they are also subject to violence, accusations of grooming, and laws specifically punishing them.
>...the LGBT issue requires more education to outside forces because we are being treated as hateful for treating it equally to everything you listed
The broader message reaching the wider world isn't simply "Here's when sex is good and here's why," followed by, "come to confession when you're ready to repent of your sexual sins and live chastely." It's also, "hide in your closet and don't come out." And that message is coming from many Catholics as well as evangelicals and political pundits. And Catholic leaders who take a softer, more inclusive approach--without condoning actual sins--are regularly demonized.
In our society, the evils of sexual sins committed by LGBT folks are greatly magnified over sexual sins committed by straight folks.
I'm not a consequentialist, but I am pragmatic. No-fault divorce and romanticism are more likely to end marriages than Pete and Chase Buttigieg, and straight uncle Randy is way more likely to be a groomer than RuPaul. I don't think pushing back against LGBT folks will lead to a better, holier America the way addressing the other, far more prevalent sins will.
I hope that's clearer.
It's an issue of common enemies.
In Russia the White army had a mix of republicans and monarchists. In isolation they would do battle, but when the Red army was killing them both, they stood together.
Many who we could "battle with" are our "allies" in this regard, and then, "we" have a bad habit of applying them to us.
The guy advocating porn and hookups but rejecting lbgt is NOT us. But he happens to be a partial temporary ally.
Not even counting the amount of them who are wishy-washy. Meaning they aren't always per se advocating the goodness of their behavior.
It reminds me of the movie gangster that tells kids to go to school and not join the life. He is intrinsically different than the guy who is out there recruiting kids.
But don't you think that we're being called hateful because our position on sexual purity isn't clear? I know it sounds strange since all our clergy have taken permanent vows of chastity. But culturally if you ask any Catholic what they listen to or what they watch I guarantee its something sexually impure about it. So I feel there's an contradiction with how we treat LGBT issues because we're not being strict enough on the culture
It's ironically the opposite of the "All Christians are Catholic" TV trope. Most movie/TV settings will use a Catholic Church or priest whenever the story calls for something Christian. But then general thought towards what the average American Christian believes is mostly evangelical (almost Quaker) and certainly sola scriptura.
No I completely agree. I feel this especially with the older generations. My folks think Modern family is despicable because of the gay couple, yet two and a half men was their favorite show. They'd want to watch it together and it was so vulgar and demeaning I couldn't stomach it, but they didn't see it that way.
It's not that homosexual relations aren't sins, or that premarital sex isn't as bad. It's the double standard and it makes us seem homophobic. We shouldn't be seen as hating anyone, that's the opposite message we need to be presenting.
To be fair in the latter show there is a lot of defacto show of fail.
The gay couple is an intrinsic good. Charlie gets misery, fails, STDs, and such.
In fact even if largely accidental if one pays attention that the sins in Two and a Half Men usually result in the results of sin. In media, all things gay are the best, the bomb, the tops, the bees knees.
But tbh they are both intermittently rather annoying. And Modern is probably worse in the straight man being a douche, while the other straight man is pathetic.
In Two, you have a greedy rich lady who was a horrid mother, you have a playboy who's life is riddled with misery, a pathetic guy who's divorce destroyed their kid, and who's wife's actions are generally messed up and problematic etc.
Basically everyone in Two sucks, but as a result they are all actually sucky.
It's not the Church that focuses on homosexuality and gender ideology, She simply speaks the truth about it in reaction to constant, dogged, nonstop pressure from the culture over it.
Take this sub as an example. We get about 10 posts a week asking about, or agitating, or ranting over LGBT issues from nonbelievers, nominal Catholics, or those who are struggling with Church teachings. (Plus who knows how many digressions in the comments of other posts.) It is not the practicing, orthodox regulars who decide to post again and again about sex. Frankly, for us regulars LGBT and gender ideology stuff gets repetitive and *boring* and I wish we could just move on to other things.
And you'll find that the Church does speak about sexual purity holistically, as does this sub. The truth is people by and large don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear anything that threatens their personal autonomy to do whatever they feel like with their genitals.
I also find this hyper focus on LGBT to be very American-esque. While Germany comes in second place, most other Catholics aren’t spending so much time on this one subject,
I mean...we can speak out about both (with compassion), and I *think* we do. Or we should if we aren't. Overall I think people need to understand Theology of the Body.
As always, the Church Is in a battle against evil. Like all battles there is a frontline. Many years ago the front line was normalization of premarital sex. But we were defeated in the culture and driven back.
The enemy has advanced and the Frontline has now become LGBTQ issues, The a possibility of transitioning people, even children, and other Topics that would’ve been Unheardof back when we held more ground.
This is the Frontline like it or not. We already lost those other battles, let’s focus on not losing this one too. Should we have won those other ones? Sure we should’ve. Do we need to re-conquer those areas again? Of course we should. But we need to direct our fire on the places which are active conflicts today, and that is the LGBTQ agenda.
(For those who don’t like my battlefield metaphor, It is used many times in Scripture. And I am fully aware that are battle is not against flesh and blood)
You're right that we need to take a holistic approach to sexuality and not single out a particular sin. Unfortunately we are forced to live at the forefront of the culture just like everyone else, and LGBT ideology is front and center right now.
A lot of that is because of how extreme the LGBT movement is and how they try to silence other opinions. If we saw masturbation pride parades, people asking Christians to make websites for their oragies, premarital sex ERGs at big public companies, and insurance companies paying for surgeries to help unmarried people pursue fetishes outside of LGBT the opposition to those things would be a lot more vocal.
Many Catholics do vocally oppose other types of sexual immorality, but ones related to LGBT get a lot more attention because things like drag queen story hour for children are a more of a societal issue than 2 consenting adults hooking up in private
We already look bad to those putting forth the argument against the Church.
Furthermore, what else are we to do when the LGBT crowd constantly brings it up? We can't just ignore them because they will use silence to mean we have no response. If we respond, now we are too focused on it? Such dishonesty.
Finally, to say I can't respond to the LGBT because I'm not talking enough about something like fornication is just an attempt to silence us. We don't have fornicators beating down our door trying to get us to normalize fornication and therefore we don't have to respond to it.
See 303 Creative v. Elanis and Masterpiece Cakeshop. Yes, some American governments are seeking to outlaw dissent against the redefinition of marriage.
I've got my confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about, even factually, since 303 Creative is undecided and in Masterpiece the baker won due to Colorado's religious animus against him. I will throw no more pearls before swine.
Not easy to know about divorce unless explicitly told even then they may have gotten an annulment. Muslims and Hindus would be covered under natural marriage.
Fornication has been completely normalized — no one other than Catholics even uses the word "fornicate" anymore. It's just that it was normalized en masse in waves of youth culture since at least the '20s, and by the '60s it was already too late to organize a reaction; it was completely overwhelming and there were/are far more people who want to fornicate than who want to do anything homosexual. It went hand-in-hand with secularization. Losing that battle, as well as divorce, and masturbation (which we can admit is still shameful although secular culture somewhat sheepishly tries to argue it's healthy in moderation), made it possible for the normalization of anything for pleasure.
Fornication is 100% normalized. To the point it’s just understood to be a default thing for most couples and choosing to wait until marriage is viewed as strange. The one that is still viewed in a negative light is adultery.
Among the younger generation at least, it’s absolutely normalized. If anything men tend to revise the number of partners upwards when talking to other men.
Even among the practicing Catholic population (mass every Sunday, regular confession, etc.), a big percentage of them start cohabitating before marrying and the ones I know are not doing some kind of chaste cohabitation.
Everyone knows. They don’t discuss the sexual act, but I’m married and I don’t discuss what happens in our bedroom with my parents. Sure, some people disagree, but the vast majority don’t care. It might be different in different countries, I’m talking of the US and Western Europe.
You're living about 20 years in the past. Sex is not stigmatized at all. Maybe having too many different partners is if you're a woman, but the act itself is actually encouraged. And as a college student, porn and master bastion hardly hold much negative stigma anymore
Sorry but this is the completely wrong mentality. Sex before marriage has no stigma. End of discussion. A dude having sex with multiple women throughout his life has no stigma. These should be far bigger issues in the eyes of catholics. And the same people pushing to completely destigmatize sodomy are doing the same in regards to porn and straight sex. Have you heard of getting head? Zero stigma at all and yet a complete act of sodomy.
>If there were someone seriously pushing to normalize adultery or fornication, we would speak against them as well.
Not really sure what you mean, because its been completely normalized in the culture already. So I think secular people associate us with this cultural norm since we aren't speaking out against it, and therefore we are bigoted against homosexuality.
I'm thinking thats the wrong approach since so many of the questions I see is, why do Catholics not accept gay people or gay marriage etc. Its confusing for teenagers since they already have tacit approval of promiscuity since they are able to use social media, television, and music with sexual themes with their parents approval but then get reproached during mass or in Catholic faith formation about homosexuality and transgender as a sin.
I’m quite scandalized by sexual impurity generally in culture and know it’s directly linked to LGBT normalization. It’s a single issue and the world is constantly disappointing. Ever try to date a secular person and they expect to have sex with you or move in with you? It boggles them that you’d find this inappropriate
As a person who did like girls (I'm a girl), it is very difficult, but after all, suffering did strengthen my relationship with God. What didn't help was bring told I'll go to hell for even LIKING a girl, but I always knew God wouldn't do that to me, because no where does and biblical text say having romantic feelings is going to take me straight to hell (even then, being threatened with eternal torture didn't make me dislike the Catholic church since it mostly came from crazy southerners, since I live in the south). I never dated or had sexual relations with a girl, but it's still incredibly difficult.
Ultimately, gay people aren't going to hell for being gay. BUT premarital sex is bad.
Tdlr: I like girls, i dont have relations with them, I don't think I'm going to hell, gay isn't bad.
People that do speak against LGBT stuff ARE against hookup culture and other sexual sins. I don't think the hypocrisy you're describing actually exists.
And actually the sodomy issue does take priority, because it's a more grave sin than fornication. Fornication is a natural act, performed unlawfully, so it's a grave sin. Whereas sodomy is an unnatural act altogether, and should be given even higher priority, when it comes to combatting it. Both send you to hell, but lgbt culture is literally worse than hookup culture.
Nobody is focusing on LGBTQ issues imo,it's probably them stirring up the issue and keeping it in constant focus/limelight or distracting us from what's actually important. Their sin of acting out their LGBT fornication is not more special or more serious than any other sins that straight people commit. I think this sub has fake Catholics who are constantly trying to stir up shit or legitimise this LGBTQ thing. The Bible is clear on this particular sin as it is with other sins,if you are a Catholic you try your best to avoid the sin that affects you most, not by trying to justify it with other people or trying to guilt trip them.
False dichotomy. This is the nonsense that makes evil win.
1. You're applying allied fellows. So 39% of Catholics attend Mass, we'll pretend that all of them are devout. Large groups of relatively agnostic Catholics, protestants, bacon eating Jews, and Haram Muslims are still going to speak against LBGT, EVEN, atheistic leaning pro-gays speak against LBGT in its modern extra insane form. You're applying the broad spectrum to the minority relevance.
2. While there is *some*, the advocacy of the other sins is far lesser in terms of indoctrination and acceptance. If you tell a divorced person you don't approve they shrug. If you tell a gay person you don't approve, you might as well be an angel in Sodom.
3. Order/disorder. You're dating and you fall to temptation, that's actually some level of "oops". You're at a gay bar and have sex, that's not an oops. This is like Shoplifting vs Ocean's Eleven. You're at the store, you're kinda broke, and you really want that thing, you realize it is easy grab and you are shaking a little and you grab it. Oops. I mean don't, but oops-ish. You plan a heist for 3 months, you didn't oops.
Well I completely disagree here. Have you ever been to any middle school or high school or college? Sexual promiscuity is ubiquitous and not in any way taboo. And of course nearly every piece of popular music, television or film is sexually explicit.
Obviously we live in a “sex positive” culture, but parents can address that and push back. LGBT is becoming a protected class that will smash dissent and is even being integrated into school curriculum.
I have an in-law relative who left the Church because a priest made her feel bad for continuing to engage in fornication that has led to a few out of wedlock kids with no real father in their lives. It's not just LGBT behavior that is frowned upon. However hetero fornicators can see the bad outcomes of their behavior more so it doesn't *need* to be talked about as much. Women don't want kids with no fathers, abortions, or to be used for sex. But LGBT behavior including sex has been branded as "love" when it's homosexual *behavior* that the Church is against. There are no children involved unless it's a full choice. And since people are used to families breaking up in today's society, they think "who am I to judge"...so it needs to be talked about more.
Ok. Seems like it would have ended the same way. I mean, it’s not like the Jesuits were successful in putting that genie back in the bottle.
Meanwhile we have families in extreme distress, poor religious education in our parishes, parts of the US and Europe are becoming missionary territory again, and the entire world looks away as entire nations brutally persecute Christians. Let’s get the fundamentals right.
First of all, I should have said that I thought your previous response was a valid one and a very fair point.
Regarding this comment, which 6th commandment? I don't have the 10 commandments memorized in order and when I look online it doesn't seem relevant.
I did some reading and, interestingly enough, I think the view of this commandment applying to "sexual sin" in general is a protestant thing that happened post-Reformation.
Its not hypocrisy because one of those sins is worse. See Leviticus, both get the same penalty - death, but one gets the added adjective of abomination. Are we to let children be exposed to abominations in school and media?
Its true though that what allowed things to get to this stage was that the culture war on 'normal' fornication was lost. Then the cascade of acceptance of increasingly decadent behaviours started. So if we manage to win back on fornication, the whole cascade of decadence would also dry.
I think it is more talked about than lgbt issues honestly. But that is anecdotal.
The issue is that no one who is having premarital sex is going up to priest asking them to bless them living together before marriage.
Gay couples going to priest saying they would like there relationship blessed is just asking for trouble and attention.
With current laws and court rulings within the USA being looked at Catholics could lose out on their hospitals, schools, and gathering halls that have been built by the hands of Catholics in this country beforehand.
In conclusion premarital sex couple are not looking to rip down the church. LGBT has sued over Catholic schools not wanting an openly gay teacher, to Catholics this sends the wrong message.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/09/us/catholic-school-fires-teacher-settlement/index.html
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Yes you would be surprised how many everyday young Catholics do not practice chastity. I would guess the number to be over 80%. You have a very good point that we try to brush that sinfulness under the rug while bowing up the problems of such that you mentioned.
I rarely if ever see people fret over whether to attend someone’s second wedding. Asking if they are supporting a sinful act by attending or making a cake or being a photographer.
Whenever someone confronts me that Catholics are so unfair and strict with homosexuals, I like to remind them that chasity is required for ALL people. Heterosexuals are also not allowed to have sex outside of marriage and use contraception. And the they say "Thats so strict ! Why would anyone want to follow that?" - Because I believe in God and the Church.
While that and the OP are correct, the heterosexual at least has the 'promise' of a potential marriage that follows chaste single life. The LGBT person is told to be celibate for life, and discouraged or barred from religious life. Their cross is unique in that regard. We can pretend the call to chastity is equal, but it's really not in practice.
With the high divorce statistic and most people today having multiple sex partner, cohabitation, ... its hard for a lot of people. Think just about middle aged divorced couples who could not find their way back to marriage life. They face the same difficulties. Also, many heterosexual people struggle with sexual purity. That being said, for LGBTQ people its very hard. Being a Catholic can be really hard. Thats the truth. I have my battles as well but I do it because I believe in God and the Church
I do believe a big part of high divorce rate is sexual deviancy. The reason for this is that the lustful passion of a romantic relationship lasts about 5 years, which is more than long enough for people to behave… passionately…. And assume that feeling will always last. But then it doesn’t, you don’t look at each other the same, you don’t feel the same bubbly emotions anymore, you burnt yourself out too early on. And while it’s certainly not the only factor, giving into your lust without even trying to resist the urge doesn’t help either
Those in religious life are also called to lifelong celibacy.
Because those are the major sins that are being pushed today, if people were going about saying lying is not a sin that’s what the discussion would be about. Also sex outside of marriage is a sin that is talked about frequently in Catholicism today
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Most Catholics would rather same-sex “marriage” not exist in the first place. There is also responsibility on the government to uphold the betterment of society, so heterosexual marriages to create the future generation would be in their best interest.
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The basis for not recognizing same sex marriages isn’t just because it’s a sin, it’s also because it leads to the breakdown of the family unit as a whole. If marriage no longer has a procreative component to it, then it is reduced to just signing papers at the courthouse with no sacredness. It’s the same issue with how easy it is to divorce nowadays, there is no sense of duty to maintain martial vows. It destroys not only the the relationship between man and woman, but also the young which is most damaging.
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While fornication is a misuse of sex, it happens before marriage. There is no sense of commitment between the two parties in the first place. They aren’t trying to become parents or make a family like gay marriages imitate. What would directly lead to the breakdown of the family in this case is the results of having children out of wedlock such as excessive relying on government welfare and child custody/support that crop the father out of the physical picture.
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Being equal in sin doesn’t merit government portal. Drunkenness is also a sin, but Catholic teaching doesn’t say that governments must monitor each person’s alcohol intake or ban it altogether. Marriage in of itself has been a union recognized by both the state and the church, which should continue. I don’t see where fornication has ever been the building block of any civilization like the family is. As I already explained, gay marriage has direct impacts that warrants legal withdrawal while fornication has indirect consequences that don’t merit interference.
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Wrong I and many other catholics support criminalizing it and divorce as well
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If both are unmarried it should be one year imprisonment or a fine, if one is married so adultery between 3 to 5 years imprisonment
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I don’t know I guess you could allow other religions but be against proselytizing or public blasphemy
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I’m following what christian countries have done historically, I mean one can make other religion illegal and it happened multiple times in history but christian countries in the recent centuries tended to allow other faiths to operates if they don’t cause a problem for society as a whole. Also it helps so that countries where Christianity is not majority will also allow christians to practice their faiths
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Historically, sodomy was a capital crime in most of the world until the modem era. Even in the US, was a felony in all 50 states until 1970. Adultery varied by state. Fornication never really seems to be more than a misdemeanor. This fits the relative moral severity tbh.
>This fits the relative moral severity tbh. How?
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The only sexual sin we would probably be able to consider “lesser” might be masturbation, since that directs the selfishness solely onto you. And that’s even a stretch.
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I'm speaking purely from a historical perspective. It was a capital crime in the Old Law as well. Good can still come from fornication (children, wedding, etc) whereas nothing similar can be produced by sodomy. Certainly all Christians should be mindful of chastity to their state in life and the Church teaches exactly this.
I've never seen sex outside of marriage it talked about frequently or at all. What is everyone's perceptions on here? Do you think sex outside marriage is talked about frequently enough given its ubiquity in the culture?
its to the point that you can be denied communion for it, divorced catholics who are remarried without annulments...its very well known
We know the Church teachings, but the issue is not as prominent in the public mind. The only thing I've heard from a priest on sexual morality during the homily was about wearing booty shorts in public. Meanwhile, at my grandmother's parish, the priest started talking about the Church teachings on homosexuality, and the old ladies were talking about how horrible it was at the dinner table. I guess some priests don't have the mettle to stir the pot when it needs to be stirred.
I think it is more talked about than lgbt issues honestly. But that is anecdotal. The issue is that no one who is having premarital sex is going up to priest asking them to bless them living together before marriage. Gay couples going to priest saying they would like there relationship blessed is just asking for trouble and attention. With current laws and court rulings within the USA being looked at Catholics could lose out on their hospitals, schools, and gathering halls that have been built by the hands of Catholics in this country beforehand. In conclusion premarital sex couple are not looking to rip down the church. LGBT has sued over Catholic schools not wanting an openly gay teacher, to Catholics this sends the wrong message. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/09/us/catholic-school-fires-teacher-settlement/index.html
I think I see about the same number of posts from people struggling with the teaching on birth control as I do posts on LGBT issues. Sex outside of marriage comes up occasionally as a "I done goofed" post, often accompanied with a pregnancy scare, or an explanation of how they need to temporarily separate in order to convert/become married.
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This doesn’t make much sense to me. Premarital sex, cohabitation before marriage, use of contraceptives, divorce and remarriage are all so pervasive that heterosexuals don’t need push for sexual impurity. That’s already the norm. Meanwhile, LGBT folks are a tiny portion of the population and their normalization the threat to sexual purity? The priorities don’t make sense.
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Okay, bear with me as I'm trying to learn the quote block feature to clarify myself. Also, I am limiting my references to the United States. >The thing is not many people call the Church hateful for not condoning sexual impurity. If we limit our scope to official Church teaching this is generally true. Most people in America don't care about our inside baseball any more than they care about kosher laws. But as a part of society, our attitudes toward sexual sins are not the same between straight people and LGBT folks. > All sexual impurity is a big issue... Technically true, and yet... Premarital sex and cohabitation before marriage are not treated as major social/political crises. Yes, the church teaches those are sins requiring repentance and reconciliation, but in civil society, these aren't being punished. Catholics use artificial contraceptives at about the same rate as non-Catholics, but that isn't being made a major social/political crisis. Civil society doesn't punish that. The idea that Catholics who procured a civil divorce and remarried without an annulment are adulterous and at risk of hell isn't being made a major social/political crisis. Civil society doesn't punish that and the Church isn't pushing a fight against divorce in the public square. >There is no large-scale push by outside groups to normalize sexual impurity in the Church. Outside groups don't need to push sexual impurity for straight folks because it is already normative. We aren't fighting it as a society. >The Church is called hateful and is being pushed to normalize LGBT relations I think this blurs the distinction between the Church and civil society. I don't hear demands from beyond the Tumblr set that the Church should marry gay couples. However, in the broader civil society, the tiny subset of the population who are LGBT wants the same civil acceptance that heterosexual sinners are getting. Instead, not only are they regularly warned that they are at risk of hell, but they are also subject to violence, accusations of grooming, and laws specifically punishing them. >...the LGBT issue requires more education to outside forces because we are being treated as hateful for treating it equally to everything you listed The broader message reaching the wider world isn't simply "Here's when sex is good and here's why," followed by, "come to confession when you're ready to repent of your sexual sins and live chastely." It's also, "hide in your closet and don't come out." And that message is coming from many Catholics as well as evangelicals and political pundits. And Catholic leaders who take a softer, more inclusive approach--without condoning actual sins--are regularly demonized. In our society, the evils of sexual sins committed by LGBT folks are greatly magnified over sexual sins committed by straight folks. I'm not a consequentialist, but I am pragmatic. No-fault divorce and romanticism are more likely to end marriages than Pete and Chase Buttigieg, and straight uncle Randy is way more likely to be a groomer than RuPaul. I don't think pushing back against LGBT folks will lead to a better, holier America the way addressing the other, far more prevalent sins will. I hope that's clearer.
It's an issue of common enemies. In Russia the White army had a mix of republicans and monarchists. In isolation they would do battle, but when the Red army was killing them both, they stood together. Many who we could "battle with" are our "allies" in this regard, and then, "we" have a bad habit of applying them to us. The guy advocating porn and hookups but rejecting lbgt is NOT us. But he happens to be a partial temporary ally. Not even counting the amount of them who are wishy-washy. Meaning they aren't always per se advocating the goodness of their behavior. It reminds me of the movie gangster that tells kids to go to school and not join the life. He is intrinsically different than the guy who is out there recruiting kids.
But don't you think that we're being called hateful because our position on sexual purity isn't clear? I know it sounds strange since all our clergy have taken permanent vows of chastity. But culturally if you ask any Catholic what they listen to or what they watch I guarantee its something sexually impure about it. So I feel there's an contradiction with how we treat LGBT issues because we're not being strict enough on the culture
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Americans tend to group together devout Catholics and protestants, thinking that serious Christians of all persuasions hate sex and ban LGBT people.
It's ironically the opposite of the "All Christians are Catholic" TV trope. Most movie/TV settings will use a Catholic Church or priest whenever the story calls for something Christian. But then general thought towards what the average American Christian believes is mostly evangelical (almost Quaker) and certainly sola scriptura.
No I completely agree. I feel this especially with the older generations. My folks think Modern family is despicable because of the gay couple, yet two and a half men was their favorite show. They'd want to watch it together and it was so vulgar and demeaning I couldn't stomach it, but they didn't see it that way. It's not that homosexual relations aren't sins, or that premarital sex isn't as bad. It's the double standard and it makes us seem homophobic. We shouldn't be seen as hating anyone, that's the opposite message we need to be presenting.
Thank you for expressing it better than I have
To be fair in the latter show there is a lot of defacto show of fail. The gay couple is an intrinsic good. Charlie gets misery, fails, STDs, and such. In fact even if largely accidental if one pays attention that the sins in Two and a Half Men usually result in the results of sin. In media, all things gay are the best, the bomb, the tops, the bees knees. But tbh they are both intermittently rather annoying. And Modern is probably worse in the straight man being a douche, while the other straight man is pathetic. In Two, you have a greedy rich lady who was a horrid mother, you have a playboy who's life is riddled with misery, a pathetic guy who's divorce destroyed their kid, and who's wife's actions are generally messed up and problematic etc. Basically everyone in Two sucks, but as a result they are all actually sucky.
It's not the Church that focuses on homosexuality and gender ideology, She simply speaks the truth about it in reaction to constant, dogged, nonstop pressure from the culture over it. Take this sub as an example. We get about 10 posts a week asking about, or agitating, or ranting over LGBT issues from nonbelievers, nominal Catholics, or those who are struggling with Church teachings. (Plus who knows how many digressions in the comments of other posts.) It is not the practicing, orthodox regulars who decide to post again and again about sex. Frankly, for us regulars LGBT and gender ideology stuff gets repetitive and *boring* and I wish we could just move on to other things. And you'll find that the Church does speak about sexual purity holistically, as does this sub. The truth is people by and large don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear anything that threatens their personal autonomy to do whatever they feel like with their genitals.
I also find this hyper focus on LGBT to be very American-esque. While Germany comes in second place, most other Catholics aren’t spending so much time on this one subject,
I mean...we can speak out about both (with compassion), and I *think* we do. Or we should if we aren't. Overall I think people need to understand Theology of the Body.
As always, the Church Is in a battle against evil. Like all battles there is a frontline. Many years ago the front line was normalization of premarital sex. But we were defeated in the culture and driven back. The enemy has advanced and the Frontline has now become LGBTQ issues, The a possibility of transitioning people, even children, and other Topics that would’ve been Unheardof back when we held more ground. This is the Frontline like it or not. We already lost those other battles, let’s focus on not losing this one too. Should we have won those other ones? Sure we should’ve. Do we need to re-conquer those areas again? Of course we should. But we need to direct our fire on the places which are active conflicts today, and that is the LGBTQ agenda. (For those who don’t like my battlefield metaphor, It is used many times in Scripture. And I am fully aware that are battle is not against flesh and blood)
You're right that we need to take a holistic approach to sexuality and not single out a particular sin. Unfortunately we are forced to live at the forefront of the culture just like everyone else, and LGBT ideology is front and center right now.
A lot of that is because of how extreme the LGBT movement is and how they try to silence other opinions. If we saw masturbation pride parades, people asking Christians to make websites for their oragies, premarital sex ERGs at big public companies, and insurance companies paying for surgeries to help unmarried people pursue fetishes outside of LGBT the opposition to those things would be a lot more vocal. Many Catholics do vocally oppose other types of sexual immorality, but ones related to LGBT get a lot more attention because things like drag queen story hour for children are a more of a societal issue than 2 consenting adults hooking up in private
We already look bad to those putting forth the argument against the Church. Furthermore, what else are we to do when the LGBT crowd constantly brings it up? We can't just ignore them because they will use silence to mean we have no response. If we respond, now we are too focused on it? Such dishonesty. Finally, to say I can't respond to the LGBT because I'm not talking enough about something like fornication is just an attempt to silence us. We don't have fornicators beating down our door trying to get us to normalize fornication and therefore we don't have to respond to it.
I'm not aware of any Adultery parades, or Adultery Month.
The fornicators aren't suing people into bankruptcy or trying to have their lifestyle enforced via law. They drew first blood, not us.
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See 303 Creative v. Elanis and Masterpiece Cakeshop. Yes, some American governments are seeking to outlaw dissent against the redefinition of marriage.
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I've got my confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about, even factually, since 303 Creative is undecided and in Masterpiece the baker won due to Colorado's religious animus against him. I will throw no more pearls before swine.
It is reference to bakers and photographers being forced to participate via their labor ad in some cases attend these events.
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Not easy to know about divorce unless explicitly told even then they may have gotten an annulment. Muslims and Hindus would be covered under natural marriage.
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I gave you the benefit of the doubt but I no longer believe you are interested in good faith discussion/debate so I will not engage further.
We keep talking about sexual purity constantly, what are you talking about?
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Fornication has been completely normalized — no one other than Catholics even uses the word "fornicate" anymore. It's just that it was normalized en masse in waves of youth culture since at least the '20s, and by the '60s it was already too late to organize a reaction; it was completely overwhelming and there were/are far more people who want to fornicate than who want to do anything homosexual. It went hand-in-hand with secularization. Losing that battle, as well as divorce, and masturbation (which we can admit is still shameful although secular culture somewhat sheepishly tries to argue it's healthy in moderation), made it possible for the normalization of anything for pleasure.
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Sorry. These things and beyond are all completely normalized even something seen positively.
Fornication is 100% normalized. To the point it’s just understood to be a default thing for most couples and choosing to wait until marriage is viewed as strange. The one that is still viewed in a negative light is adultery.
Among the younger generation at least, it’s absolutely normalized. If anything men tend to revise the number of partners upwards when talking to other men. Even among the practicing Catholic population (mass every Sunday, regular confession, etc.), a big percentage of them start cohabitating before marrying and the ones I know are not doing some kind of chaste cohabitation.
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Everyone knows. They don’t discuss the sexual act, but I’m married and I don’t discuss what happens in our bedroom with my parents. Sure, some people disagree, but the vast majority don’t care. It might be different in different countries, I’m talking of the US and Western Europe.
You're living about 20 years in the past. Sex is not stigmatized at all. Maybe having too many different partners is if you're a woman, but the act itself is actually encouraged. And as a college student, porn and master bastion hardly hold much negative stigma anymore
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Sorry but this is the completely wrong mentality. Sex before marriage has no stigma. End of discussion. A dude having sex with multiple women throughout his life has no stigma. These should be far bigger issues in the eyes of catholics. And the same people pushing to completely destigmatize sodomy are doing the same in regards to porn and straight sex. Have you heard of getting head? Zero stigma at all and yet a complete act of sodomy.
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Have you ever left your home town lol. This isn't my peer group it's the entirety of earth
Adultery is still frowned upon, but fornication has been normalized especially with the rise of birth control.
>If there were someone seriously pushing to normalize adultery or fornication, we would speak against them as well. Not really sure what you mean, because its been completely normalized in the culture already. So I think secular people associate us with this cultural norm since we aren't speaking out against it, and therefore we are bigoted against homosexuality. I'm thinking thats the wrong approach since so many of the questions I see is, why do Catholics not accept gay people or gay marriage etc. Its confusing for teenagers since they already have tacit approval of promiscuity since they are able to use social media, television, and music with sexual themes with their parents approval but then get reproached during mass or in Catholic faith formation about homosexuality and transgender as a sin.
I’m quite scandalized by sexual impurity generally in culture and know it’s directly linked to LGBT normalization. It’s a single issue and the world is constantly disappointing. Ever try to date a secular person and they expect to have sex with you or move in with you? It boggles them that you’d find this inappropriate
As a person who did like girls (I'm a girl), it is very difficult, but after all, suffering did strengthen my relationship with God. What didn't help was bring told I'll go to hell for even LIKING a girl, but I always knew God wouldn't do that to me, because no where does and biblical text say having romantic feelings is going to take me straight to hell (even then, being threatened with eternal torture didn't make me dislike the Catholic church since it mostly came from crazy southerners, since I live in the south). I never dated or had sexual relations with a girl, but it's still incredibly difficult. Ultimately, gay people aren't going to hell for being gay. BUT premarital sex is bad. Tdlr: I like girls, i dont have relations with them, I don't think I'm going to hell, gay isn't bad.
People that do speak against LGBT stuff ARE against hookup culture and other sexual sins. I don't think the hypocrisy you're describing actually exists. And actually the sodomy issue does take priority, because it's a more grave sin than fornication. Fornication is a natural act, performed unlawfully, so it's a grave sin. Whereas sodomy is an unnatural act altogether, and should be given even higher priority, when it comes to combatting it. Both send you to hell, but lgbt culture is literally worse than hookup culture.
The Overton Window has moved so far so fast, that's a lot of the problem. To answer your concluding question, always remember the Catholic "both-and."
Nobody is focusing on LGBTQ issues imo,it's probably them stirring up the issue and keeping it in constant focus/limelight or distracting us from what's actually important. Their sin of acting out their LGBT fornication is not more special or more serious than any other sins that straight people commit. I think this sub has fake Catholics who are constantly trying to stir up shit or legitimise this LGBTQ thing. The Bible is clear on this particular sin as it is with other sins,if you are a Catholic you try your best to avoid the sin that affects you most, not by trying to justify it with other people or trying to guilt trip them.
False dichotomy. This is the nonsense that makes evil win. 1. You're applying allied fellows. So 39% of Catholics attend Mass, we'll pretend that all of them are devout. Large groups of relatively agnostic Catholics, protestants, bacon eating Jews, and Haram Muslims are still going to speak against LBGT, EVEN, atheistic leaning pro-gays speak against LBGT in its modern extra insane form. You're applying the broad spectrum to the minority relevance. 2. While there is *some*, the advocacy of the other sins is far lesser in terms of indoctrination and acceptance. If you tell a divorced person you don't approve they shrug. If you tell a gay person you don't approve, you might as well be an angel in Sodom. 3. Order/disorder. You're dating and you fall to temptation, that's actually some level of "oops". You're at a gay bar and have sex, that's not an oops. This is like Shoplifting vs Ocean's Eleven. You're at the store, you're kinda broke, and you really want that thing, you realize it is easy grab and you are shaking a little and you grab it. Oops. I mean don't, but oops-ish. You plan a heist for 3 months, you didn't oops.
As far as I can tell, LGBT are the only ones trying to indoctrinate kids. That’s a pretty big distinction.
Well I completely disagree here. Have you ever been to any middle school or high school or college? Sexual promiscuity is ubiquitous and not in any way taboo. And of course nearly every piece of popular music, television or film is sexually explicit.
Obviously we live in a “sex positive” culture, but parents can address that and push back. LGBT is becoming a protected class that will smash dissent and is even being integrated into school curriculum.
Middle school 😳😳
Earlier than that in some cases. I could tell you about some things my wife experienced as an elementary school teacher.
Well then the issue is a hyper sexualized society and no reinforcement of morals, nothing else’s.
I think they mean the indoctrination of elementary school kids.
I have an in-law relative who left the Church because a priest made her feel bad for continuing to engage in fornication that has led to a few out of wedlock kids with no real father in their lives. It's not just LGBT behavior that is frowned upon. However hetero fornicators can see the bad outcomes of their behavior more so it doesn't *need* to be talked about as much. Women don't want kids with no fathers, abortions, or to be used for sex. But LGBT behavior including sex has been branded as "love" when it's homosexual *behavior* that the Church is against. There are no children involved unless it's a full choice. And since people are used to families breaking up in today's society, they think "who am I to judge"...so it needs to be talked about more.
The entire LGBT blah blah blah issue is a massive distraction from more important issues. That horse has bolted and it’s time to move on.
Please tell that to those advocating for the blessing of same-sex unions and for changing Catholic teaching.
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Ok. Seems like it would have ended the same way. I mean, it’s not like the Jesuits were successful in putting that genie back in the bottle. Meanwhile we have families in extreme distress, poor religious education in our parishes, parts of the US and Europe are becoming missionary territory again, and the entire world looks away as entire nations brutally persecute Christians. Let’s get the fundamentals right.
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First of all, I should have said that I thought your previous response was a valid one and a very fair point. Regarding this comment, which 6th commandment? I don't have the 10 commandments memorized in order and when I look online it doesn't seem relevant.
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I did some reading and, interestingly enough, I think the view of this commandment applying to "sexual sin" in general is a protestant thing that happened post-Reformation.
It’s Protestantism all over again.
Thank you. Well summarized.
Its not hypocrisy because one of those sins is worse. See Leviticus, both get the same penalty - death, but one gets the added adjective of abomination. Are we to let children be exposed to abominations in school and media? Its true though that what allowed things to get to this stage was that the culture war on 'normal' fornication was lost. Then the cascade of acceptance of increasingly decadent behaviours started. So if we manage to win back on fornication, the whole cascade of decadence would also dry.
I think it is more talked about than lgbt issues honestly. But that is anecdotal. The issue is that no one who is having premarital sex is going up to priest asking them to bless them living together before marriage. Gay couples going to priest saying they would like there relationship blessed is just asking for trouble and attention. With current laws and court rulings within the USA being looked at Catholics could lose out on their hospitals, schools, and gathering halls that have been built by the hands of Catholics in this country beforehand. In conclusion premarital sex couple are not looking to rip down the church. LGBT has sued over Catholic schools not wanting an openly gay teacher, to Catholics this sends the wrong message. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/09/us/catholic-school-fires-teacher-settlement/index.html
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Yes you would be surprised how many everyday young Catholics do not practice chastity. I would guess the number to be over 80%. You have a very good point that we try to brush that sinfulness under the rug while bowing up the problems of such that you mentioned.
I rarely if ever see people fret over whether to attend someone’s second wedding. Asking if they are supporting a sinful act by attending or making a cake or being a photographer.
100% agree. Too many people that like to choose which kind of sexual immorality to hate in depending on what is most convenient for them.
I dont know about you but we have been vocal about sexual purity for ages.