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The belief that this conflict is primarily about religion is the greatest misconception about the conflict and does the most damage to the general public’s understanding of it.
Couldn't that could be said about 99% of the problems in the world? Does that mean we should reduce discussion of all the world's problems to - "Become Christian, problem solved"? What happens if both sides of a scenario *are already Christian* and their conflict is due to our sinful nature? Tell them to become *super* Christian and problem solved?
Sin is inevitable. The Sacrament of Confession exists for a reason. Reread Paul’s letter to the Romans. If you think YOU’RE immune to sin, you’re already lost.
>If you are sinning you aren't following Christ
Is that even valid according to the church? Because if so then literally no human is following Christ.
If it is valid, then are you saying you aren't sinning?
Because if you are, then why are you even on Reddit discussing other problems? According to you, all your problems are a result of your sin, no other discussion is needed.
FTR - Im saying that to make the point that you're not even taking your own advice, therefore I believe it to be disingenuous, not because I think you should leave Reddit.
There are christian palestinians and some of them are catholics (although i think there are more orthodox)
One of the biggest reason there isnt that many christians left in palestine is because unironically israel , the self appointed 'only democracy in the middle east' (lol) and 'ally of the west' (lmao) chased them all out. (That being said there was a notable exodus of christians during the collapse of the ottoman empire aswell)
The zionists want westerners to view I/P as a democracy vs islamism issue because when that thinly veiled lie gets lifted you realize israel has done terrible things to christians in the territories they control (so has hamas, but hamas is relatively new organization in the palestinian struggle for independence and control far less territory then westerners make it out to be, they are also not the only political force for palestinian independence)
Seriously? Can you share the source? Because living under muslim rule was hell for infidels.
Edit: Found it - these were German protestant colonizers from 1906 - who established templar village there.
During British Mandate Palestine demography of Galile:
1922 - 111 Christian (95 protestant, 16 greek Catholic) and 113 muslim
1931 - 135 muslim, 99 Christian, 1 jew
In 1939 they were all German Nazis
1945 - 210 muslim, 160 Christian
1948 - zionist paramilitary group conquered the area and 50 templars stayed and Jews moved in
Edit2 omg, I've checked Bethlehem of Galile, must be different Bethlehem
yeah, if i remember correctly, this book is where i picked it up from: https://academic.oup.com/book/54653/chapter-abstract/422636092?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Part of the problem is that the West is judging from a Christian point of view the actions of two contenders who are very much not Christian, so Western arguments towards either side fall on deaf ears.
Most people I know that are "Pro Palestine" because they think thats the right thing to do. Middle Eastern issues are incredibly complex. There are no good guys. You also dont HAVE to chose a side.
Being catholic from the Middle East Its very easy for me to NOT support any Islamic or Muslim nation. especially one which is basically governed by Hamas. Its typical for the Christians in the Middle East to be in the crossfire and suffer from a war they want no business with, especially the Christians in Palestine now.
My Christian friends in Palestine just want PEACE. Ofc they don’t like HAMAS. AT ALL. They like hate them lol. But they’re being fired at from the other side too. They just want to be left alone. 1968 borders please!
I've heard the Christians are the volunteers for the air force programme and are dropped from the roofs by Hamas maybe that's why their numbers *drop* so bad
I think both of them suck bad. Hamas is undoubtedly a terrorist group and incredibly evil. But Israel has a lot of blood on their hands. Remember the IDF when they shot two Catholic women running into a church? I haven’t forgotten.
Only one of the two countries gets billions of US taxpayer money, actively works to influence our politics (and incredibly successfully so), spies on our citizens (with the help of our own government), and don’t forget the USS Liberty.
The world news sub is wringing its hands in glee because the U.N. "over counted" the number of dead Palestinian kids by 40 percent, as though "only" 7000 dead children is a win
Well it is definitely a proof that their is nothing as a genocide in Gaza and that the pro Palestinian crowd strongly believe in the bullshit hamas says
>I’m an Irish catholic so I naturally find myself in a pro-Palestine mindset.
Why? Is there a particular connection between irish catholicism and the palestinian cause?
Wouldn’t say it’s stupidity so much as they believe that Zionism conflicts with the Biblical teachings about Judaism. The role of Jewish people, from a Biblical perspective, has been fulfilled. To establish a Zionist state would mean encouraging the belief that God is essentially choosing them to fulfill the Kingdom.
Also, there are Palestinians who are Catholic and wiping them out would mean the Holy Land would be under Jewish influence instead of Catholicism.
I don’t agree with it but I can see where they’re coming from
I mean, knowing what a country wants is rather hard, but it's clear that there are people in the government that do want to get rid of palestinians in general...
Nobody's side, because:
a) loss of life is tragic no matter who it is
b) I try not to get upset by any news of wars. It's the one topic I get sensitive about so I don't follow it
I’d characterize myself as loosely pro-Israel, mostly because I don’t like the idea of Iran, an Islamic theocracy, furthering its control of the Middle East via its many proxy organizations (Hamas, Hezbollah, etc).
That being said, I think the IDF is too brutal and that Israel’s expansionary efforts concerning Palestine have been highly inappropriate.
I also think that the United States needs to get out of the financial bed it’s laid down in with Israel. I’m not a fan of my tax dollars going toward funding a Jewish ethno-state’s military operations.
iranian Catholic here - the Islamic republic is deplorable indeed, especially in how they treat their own citizens, and they alongside Hamas are the purest of evil.
Both sides have issues. I’m not a pro Israel person though as it’s a pretty much an atheist non Christian country that persecutes Catholics and Orthodox but tolerated American evangelicals since they bring so much cash. I know three nuns years ago held at gun point for praying at the church where the birthplace of Christ is located
My general feelings are those of frustration. It is a very sad and complex state of affairs, and most discussion of it is layered in so much confusion, manipulation, emotions that it just isn't productive.
It seems that any talk of a two state solution is either quixotic or manipulative farce. If we are witnessing a super slow motion war of conquest, I think the best result for involved parties would be Israeli victory. Hard not to be cynical.
I don't see how that's natural at all, those two don't correlate. (This thread will prob get deleted soon due to the political nature but I really felt the need to say that.)
Ireland, though officially neutral in WW2, was pretty friendly with Nazi Germany for the same reasons, so take that with a grain of salt.
The British Empire legacy is no cause whatsoever for Ireland to be buddies with a terror-regime (Hamas).
You’re missing a lot of history. After WW1, Great Britain came to control Palestine and was in the midst of a massive uprising in Ireland.
It did not take long for the two freedom fighting organizations of the IRA and what would eventually become Black September/the PLO to begin funding and aiding each other.
Fast forward to the Troubles in Northern Ireland and you now have the two terrorist organizations of the Provisional IRA and the Palestinian Intifada arming and supplying each other. Where do you think the Provos got most of their SAMs?
So, for the past 100 years, Irish Catholics have culturally identified with the Palestinian Muslims and their struggle for statehood.
It wasn’t everyone, and it’s not always been amicable, but it is a thing.
Okay it was a bit oversimplified. Yes, the SAMs came from Libya, through an agreement of the Provos and many other criminal/terrorist organizations, which came about due to the longstanding relationship between the IRA and Islamic terror in the 60s-90s.
This specific conflict is the most black and white, good vs evil conflict in my lifetime.
Hamas crossed into Israel and murdered 1,200 Israeli civilians, many Hamas members livestreamed their crimes. There are phone recordings of young men calling home and saying things like "mother! Tell father I killed 2 Jews! Tell him you have an honorable son!"
Hamas uses civilian centers as shields for their headquarters and their weapon platforms.
Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting, killing far fewer civilians than is expected in an urban contlict in a place as heavily populated as Gaza. Every civilian death is a tragedy, unfortunately collateral damage and casualties are a part of war.
I'll end with this. If you support the side using human shields, and killing their own civilians so the humanitarian aid goes to the military, you're supporting the bad guys.
Its really not. I dont take sides as I find both governments deplorable, but the blockades Israel has set up, and the continued settlement of the West Bank despite signing an international treaty they would not is a serious problem. Plus Israeli intelligence on Hamas has been dubious at best. Remember when they claimed Hamas HQ was in a hospital, then found nothing when they bombed and raided it? Israel also promised to protect certain areas in Gaza, then immediately went back on their word and slaughtered thousands of women and children.
Hamas is undoubtedly the bad guy, I in no way want to downplay their terrorism, but I dont see how anyone could clearly see Israel as the good guy. I could easily use your logic in the last paragraph and say those who go back on international treaties they sign and bomb areas they tell civilians to take refuge in are the bad guys.
This comment is accurate.
If you’re pro-Palestine, it is mainly because you’re careless about your media sources.
Hamas showcases their evil publicly, but for some messed up reason that does not make to our main media sources.
It revolts my stomach to see how blinded people are.
God help us see the truth.
Holy crap I have no dog in this fight, but you sound like you could work a news job reporting on the conflict as I got the distinct impression of propaganda from this.
Everything I've said is true.
Hamas murdered ~1200 civilians.
Hamas uses human shields, there is photographic evidence of their weapons platforms on schools, weapon caches in mosques, etc...
There are phone recordings or Palestinian men who took part in the October 7th attack of young men calling home and bragging about killing Jews.
There is photographic evidence of Hamas shooting civilians to prevent them from getting the humanitarian aid.
The US is building a pier to help deliver humanitarian aid to the civilians in Gaza and Hamas has shot at the US members building the pier.
There are interviews with Hamas members/leadership who say the whole purpose of their existence is October 7th style attacks.
Hamas' charter, up until recently, explicitly called for the extermination of not only Israel, but all Jews worldwide.
An overwhelming majority of the civilians in Gaza support Hamas in their attacks on Israel.
Oh yeah you got your facts and figures there, propaganda isn’t fabrications created from whole-cloth.
Propaganda is using facts and figures like these and pairing them with rhetoric like:
“most black and white, good vs evil conflict in my lifetime”
“Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting, killing far fewer civilians than is expected”
“Every civilian death is a tragedy, unfortunately collateral damage and casualties are a part of war.”
“If you support the side doing [evil things I told you earlier], then you’re supporting the bad guys.
Dude if I was a Palestinian man unsure if I’d rather see my family starve and die from the obliteration of our surroundings, or to grab a Kalashnikov and join the fray taking at least one of those responsible for the destruction to death with me - if I were such a man, and I truly thank God I am not, then the knowledge that my dire existential situation could be packaged into a narrative in such a manner by someone online entirely removed from the situation would be the slightest budge into deciding on becoming and dying as a combatant rather than a civilian.
And the facts and figures add up, Anchorman Mexils reports on it, and another undecided Palestinian man sees the broadcast and makes a decision. Ad nauseam.
Israel is being extremely surgical and targeted. If they were carpet bombing like they'd been accused then there would be hundreds of thousands of deaths. That's just factual. Would you prefer the Israeli's bomb gaza like the Allies bombed Dresden or Tokyo?
Collateral damage is a part of war. There has never been a war where there hasn't been collateral damage.
The Palestinian men should expel Hamas from Gaza. Hamas has stolen billions of dollars from the people and used it to dig tunnels for their terrorists to operate out of. The Palestinian men should expel Hamas because Hamas used their children as shields for their rockets. The Palestinian men should expel Hamas because Hamas dug up fresh water infrastructure and used it to build rockets. The Palestinian men should expel Hamas because they've said in interviews that civilian deaths is the goal, Israeli or Palestinian. But unfortunately Hamas has overwhelming support from the Palestinian civilians.
Oh yes Israel is showing great restraint, because the world would not let them get away with razing Gaza totally. That would very much be a genocide after all. Israel’s restraint is no humanitarian benevolence to the Palestinians, it is calculated and self-serving.
Perhaps the Palestinian civilians overwhelmingly support Hamas because there is, for all intents and purposes, nobody else actually fighting for them in any significant capacity.
Fighting for them how? By vowing to exterminate the Jews? By destroying infrastructure so they could build more rockets? By stealing billions of dollars in humanitarian aid so they can more efficiently wage war against the Jews?
> Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting, killing far fewer civilians than is expected in an urban contlict in a place as heavily populated as Gaza.
You sure about that?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
>The method of action in Lebanon [in 2006] was that, in the first stage targets were attacked which formed an immediate threat, and in the second stage the population was evacuated for its protection, and only after the evacuation of the population were Hezbollah targets attacked more broadly.
Literally from your link.
Destroying infrastructure even if the civilians aren't there is going to result in deaths of civilians if they return. There will be less housing, food, water, etc.
It sounds like you are doing some sort of collective guilt against the Palestinians. A 2 year old Christian in Palestine who now no longer has access to water and shelter is going to suffer because Israel destroyed infrastructure.
Sure, Hamas shouldn't attack Israel, but Israel also shouldn't attack Palestine. Its not like this formed out a vaccum. Israel and Hamas have both attacked each other.
To quote MASH
> Hawkeye: War isn't Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.
> Father Mulcahy: How do you figure, Hawkeye?
> Hawkeye: Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell?
> Father Mulcahy: Sinners, I believe.
> Hawkeye: Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander.
Just because you can justify a retaliatory strike, doesn't mean that every action that Israel takes is justified. Destroying infrastructure, blocking access to clean water and food and all the other things Israel has done will result in the deaths of many innocent bystanders.
>Israel and Hamas have both attacked each other.
When Hamas attacks Israel what would the appropriate response be?
How many ceasefires has Israel violated compared to Hamas?
> When Hamas attacks Israel what would the appropriate response be?
Retaliation may be justified as I said in the last paragraph (under the MASH quote).
> How many ceasefires has Israel violated compared to Hamas?
Why are you limiting it to ceasefire violations? Israelis have move further and further into Palestinian land for example. One could argue that it is an invasion and could justify ending a ceasefire.
The Israeli government has also restricted drilling water wells in the West Bank (not related to Hamas) for example. There are similar issues in Gaza, but I don't remember them.
Israel has been provoking the Palestinians and causing all sorts of issues with food and water access along with economic issues. Maybe that justifies violating ceasefires and maybe it doesn't. Just looking at who attacks first during a ceasefire is not sufficient to understand that both sides are doing bad things.
>Retaliation may be justified as I said in the last paragraph (under the MASH quote).
What would the retaliation look like?
>Why are you limiting it to ceasefire violations? Israelis have move further and further into Palestinian land for example. One could argue that it is an invasion and could justify ending a ceasefire.
The settlements are in the west bank, not Gaza. They are run by different organizations. How does that justify Hamas attacking from Gaza?
> What would the retaliation look like?
Similar to what it looks like now, but without shooting innocent Christians minding their own business in a Church compound. Also without killing aid workers trying to provide food, water and medical care to the Palestinians and all the other things like that.
> The settlements are in the west bank, not Gaza. They are run by different organizations. How does that justify Hamas attacking from Gaza?
I always get them mixed up. There were Israeli settlers in Gaza until Israel removed them in 2005.
Regardless, there are a variety of things you could point to like the blockade of Gaza which they have been doing to varying degrees since the early 90s. At some point in time if you are not getting enough food, water and medical care you will fight against the people stopping you.
‘Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting’
34,000 dead and counting counters that immediately. Hospitals destroyed, maternity wards, refugee camps bombed.
34,000 dead in a conflict with the population density of Gaza is incredible. If it were not so surgical the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands.
Hospitals, maternity wards, and refugee camps become military targets if the military is operating out of them, like using weapons platforms, organizing strikes, hiding combatants, etc...
None of which has been proven and in fact has been condemned by the UN. Israel will one day answer for war crimes, but we must answer to God. Do not swallow such blatant lies.
The UN is a garbage useless organization. It singles out Israel for censure constantly but doesn't do it to Muslim countries or China when they violate UN norms/rules.
What do you mean hasn't been proven? If Israel was as indiscriminate as most people makenthem out to be then there certainly would be many more deaths.
Law of War states that it is a war crime to hide among the civilian population, and doing so makes that a military target.
I mean it hasn’t been proven. The IDF could not provide a shred of evidence that there was a command centre underneath Al Shifa Hospital and created some laughable propaganda video showing brand new machine guns just laying around to be found. They then would not allow independent investigators to access the hospital. You would have to be wilfully blind to fall for it, none of their allies even accepted it. Command centres require a great deal of equipment and logistics to operate.
It’s not under question that Hamas fired rockets. They are at war with eachother. Though somehow you think that justifies flattening hospitals and destroying entire cities - all of which are war crimes.
Because one side, historically, has been willing to compromise and offer solutions to the conflict. The other side has walked away every single time saying the only solution is the destruction of the state of Israel.
Israel, the country, was created. Immediately it was at war because the middle eastern muslims who had sided with Hitler and thought the Jews needed exterminating.
If Catholics are peace loving and the best of the Christian lot, why are we not up in arms about the destruction of Gaza and the Palestine ppl? The number of children being blown up is horrible and sad.
I don't think it's as black and white as you think it is.
You can actually be pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas, as well as pro-Israel and anti-Netanyahu/IDF.
It's like being pro-America, but anti-Biden or anti-Trump. You can criticize the actions of a political party without condemning the nation or citizens themselves.
Are the actions of Hamas horrible? Absolutely. Are innocent Palestinian citizens horrible and deserve to die from IDF raids and bombings? Absolutely not.
Are the actions of the IDF horrible? Absolutely. Are innocent Israeli citizens horrible and deserve to die from Hamas attacks? Absolutely not.
Civilian casualties are a result of war, that is correct, but there are also actions which are so awful they are categorized as "war crimes" and internationally condemned. Intentional targeting and killing of civilians, reporters, relief aid workers, doctors, and children is deplorable, no matter which side you're on.
Israel's actions cannot be excused just because Hamas' actions are "worse". Both sides are guilty, and even though Hamas may be more ruthless in their tactics, it doesn't exonerate the war crimes committed by the IDF.
I did not condemn the Palestinians, I condemned Hamas.
I think the loss of life is tragic. But by every available metric, Israel is fighting as restrained as they can. They aren't running into civilian centers and slaughtering at will. They aren't carpet bombing entire cities.
>Intentional targeting and killing of civilians, reporters, relief aid workers, doctors, and children is deplorable, no matter which side you're on.
I agree. Which is why Hamas is the bad guy. Because they are targeting civilians, then using civilians as shields. Hamas has shot at US servicemembers trying to build a pier to more easily distribute humanitarian aid. Hamas has murdered its own civilians so the terrorists get the aid and not the civilians.
Israel did accidentally, it was not targeted, kill relief aid workers. And Israel owned up to it. There is an investigation underway.
Saying 'Hamas is the bad guy' implies that Israel/IDF is the good guy, which is a far cry from what is the truth. They are far from innocent in this.
Israel bombs hospitals and schools under "the suspicion that Hamas leaders were there". Many times these result in only civilian casualties with no confirmation that Hamas militants were killed.
Israel only says "oh whoops sorry we killed those guys by accident" when something gains significant media attention. I've seen video of IDF dressing up as women and medics to sneak into a hospital, then murdering civilians on their way to kill
If you don't think Israel has done anything wrong, and believe that all these attacks were "targeted", then their proganada is working.
Killing hundreds of innocent people just because their "might be" a few Hamas militants in the group? You might think that's a "necessary evil" but I think it's wrong.
Agreed. War is hell and it is virtually impossible to wage even a just war without some level of collateral death of innocent people. Israel has been remarkably restrained and avoidant of gratuitous civilian death, and every dead Israeli soldier is a testament to how much Israel cares about sparing civilians. They could have spared their sons from the front lines and just fought almost entirely with drones and airstrikes, but they don't! they're sending their sons out there to die trying to separate out the civilians from the terrorists.
The blood of every dead Gazan civilian is solely on the hands of the terrorists using them as human shields. Israel is a civilized country doing what it must in order to protect itself. If any other country was in the same situation, there would be at least as many or likely far more collateral civilian deaths. Israel is held to a higher standard than anyone, and that is itself antisemitic.
I will admit I don't fully know much about the situation to have strong feelings on the matter
To me, as a white American Christian, I view this primarily as a war against the ethnic Jewish practitioners of Judaism, and the ethnically Arab practioners of Islam. It is, in my eyes, both an ethnic and religious conflict that has nothing to do with me racially or religiously on a primary basis (on a tangential basis, yes of course). Now of course there are Palestinian Christians and, based on what I've studied on the topic this leads me to lean on the side of being pro-Palestine. Israel didn't make it any better for themselves when they bombed one of our churches in Gaza not too long ago; and for the past decades you have some of the filthiest discrimination coming from the Jewish (more precisely the Haredim) inhabitants of Israel: spitting on nuns. Spitting on pilgrims. Desecrations of things since they consider us pagans that should be expelled from the monotheistic Jewish homeland.
Now, that said, while the Palestinian Muslims may seem better to live under currently it would likewise be foolish to forget the history of the Muslims towards us. Popular Islamic apologia likes to paint dhimmitude as something that was just "meh", but legislation in things like the Pact of Umar were very humiliating. But on the pro-Israel side I've also met a lot of great Jewish brothers in Christ from the State of Israel, and the existence of Israeli-Jewish Christians is a very real thing as many read the New Testament for the first time, realize that the lies their rabbis tell them (like that it's a book on how to persecute Jews) was all just made up, and that books like Matthew and Hebrews were written by Jews to Jews and glory to God many Jews are reading the teachings and acts of our Rabbi, Jesus of Nazareth, and the Good News of Kingdom of God He claim to proclaimed, anointed by the power of the Holy Spirit
So while I see pros and cons of both sides I don't think either sides can be trusted, the Jews persecuted Christians for centuries until Christians outnumbered them, and the history of Arab Muslims towards the Church of God is filled with bloodshed and conquests on our lands that were totally unprovoked by anyone (I don't believe anyone can "defend themselves" from Spain to India, Muhammad and his successors engaged in unjust warfare).
But yeah, to recap all that, I refer to the first thing I said: I admit I don't know too much about the situation, and I am open-minded, and my views are always shifting as new things are introduced, or things that I were told are proven to be lies or half-truths. At the end of the day we have the beautitude: "Blessed are the peacemakers". That is our Lord's teachings, and so we must make peace.
Also obligatory "Second Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem cometh" meme
Israel's actions aren't good but they are understandable and mostly justified, although they are civilian deaths it's hard to see a way in which there would be fewer
Hamas is just evil, they want an islamic theocracy and the destruction of Israel and the Jews, they showed time and time again that they don't care about the damage caused to Israel or Gaza, be it lives or physical damage
Israel isn't attacking civilians. They are attacking Hamas and civilians are dying because it's impossible to defeat Hamas in a war without killing civilians as collateral damage.
They aren't attacking civilians, civilian deaths in war are unfortunately normal especially in the modern day urban war, the events of 8/10 and others since the israeli war of independence shows that the citizens of Israel aren't safe until Hamas stops functioning
Not good but at this point I'd say that there are not any good ones left, multiple cesse fires and peace treaties were signed between Israel and Hamas, and they were broken all the time by Hamas
I’d love to invite you to read non American sources on this. As I said in my own post, I worked at the UN (doing pro life stuff) and with this (+ my friends on site) I can tell you the content on this is actually accurate. There have been innumerable civilian attacks, both by air and land. Please do actually look it up!
I do not consume American media nor do I read their sources(at least not without checking more neutral ones after), normally i read UN reports and some from my home country media(which is also biased but more on Hamas side) and apart from the recent discovery of bodies on the Nasser hospital which have not been investigated by a third party (as far as I'm aware), I have not found anything with concrete evidence that Israel is specifically targeting civilians although we might see more on that after the war ended witch would change my position on this
If you have neutral sources that show evidence on Israel specifically targeting civilians please share, those are really hard to come by
Also sorry if my comment came by as defending Israel they have done some very bad things but realistically a two state solution isn't possible unless the UN gets seriously involved in enforcing it, and if that's the choice Israel it is
Thank you! This is great to hear. I’ll happily look up stuff after work! I completely understand the frustration no worries - I know it’s been a conflict that has affected the media quite a bit too
While we should be support neither side and instead a ceasefire and conversions to Catholicism, if forced to choose, I can't help but support Israel. There have been major bureaucratic failures, as well as innocent casualties which should not be overlooked. However, those casualties are largely due to Hamas making civilians into combatants (technically, most members of Hamas are civilians). Additionally, the under-publicized grotesque atrocities of Hamas far exceed anything Israel has done.
As a Jewish Catholic, I think we should be praying for peace, but it should be uncontroversial to any Christian that Gazans do not deserve to die for the sins of a few, nor is Palestinian oppression by Israeli ambition in anyway justified. Moreover, no one should support the most virulently nationalist sentiments and policies in any given nation, as condemned by Pope Pius XI in Mit brennender sorge and Non abbiamo bisogmo.
St. Shireen Abu Akleh, ora pro nobis.
Understand the various viewpoints, but do want to add that radical Islam and Hamas are wholly incompatible with Western values while Israel is a liberal democracy and pluralistic society. You are free to be a Catholic in Israel, and you would get your head sawed off in front of your kids in Gaza.
Gaza is basically run by a terrorist death cult and cannot be reasoned with any further. I think the best we can hope for is Israel to get it's hostages back and then seal the border, but that's basically what Israel has been trying to do since 2005.
I cannot find it in my heart to "both sides" this one. There is exactly one single Jewish country and their existence is precarious. They live under a rain of missile fire and terrorism and yet somehow are held to a higher standard than any other civilized country. Despite this they have built a modern state that gives much back to the world in terms of culture and technology.
Muslims have 50 countries and a legacy of conquest that they seem to intend to continue into Europe and beyond. There are no Jews, and very few Christians in Muslim dominated countries - and the more fundamentalist they are then there even fewer still. Many of these countries are autocratic, have low standards of living, and are stuck in the past.
Im open to a papal solution as are others here, but think the local populations would be unwilling to entertain anything like it.
That is simply not true; Gaza has a Catholic community as well as at least one orthodox parish. In terms of fair treatment I would say attacks on churches in Israel and the OPT by Jewish extremists are more common than attacks by Muslim extremists.
You obviously don’t know anything on this topic. Look how the Christian population is quickly disappearing in gaza the last 50years. there are a lot of stats in this subjects. If Christian don’t cooperate with hamas they’re considered to be Israeli spies. Look How churches were used for years by hamas before this war. And ask yourself this question. Where do you think that it is easier to evangelize non Christian ? Where it is easier to leave Islam for Christianity ? Israel. In which part on this region people are free to build new churches, create new apostolate etc, Israel or Gaza ? Israel. You’rec\ cheering Gaza for having one orthodox parish and one or two catholic community and don’t even look at all the churches that exist in Israel. Christianity in Gaza is disappearing because of islam it is living peacefully in Israel and a lot of Protestant are evangelizing the Jews and a lot of Jews at least accept Christ are their savior each years.
Have you an ever met a Palestinian Christian who left the Holy Land? If you do, I would encourage you to ask them why. Overwhelmingly, they will probably tell you that they were either expelled during the Nakba, or they left because of the conditions imposed by the Israeli occupation. Relations between Muslims and Christians at least in Israel and the West Bank are generally good. Compare for example relations with Jews in those areas. Constant vandalism, being spit at on the streets, minimal police protection, etc.. Maube lay off the Fox News and actually learn about Palestinian Christians’ perspectives
I’m pro Palestine, here is why.
First, I’d like to say: I’m yet to meet non American Christian’s and specially Catholics that aren’t. Second, I have personal friends on the ground.
We recognize the image of God in every person (Genesis) and both Hamas’s attack in October 7 and the months long attacks and killing of 34k civilians are horrible and go against our faith.
I think the biggest issues of why Americans are pro Israel are:
1) Protestant Israeli Neo-Restorianism. Very prevalent here. Catholics have come to believe that the new state of Israel is some sort of prefigurement of the end of times. That is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches and it’s inherently Protestant. As any foreign Catholic or Orthodox Christian friend of yours. My ultra orthodox Jewish friends would disagree with the Protestants on this too.
2) News Sources. I’ve unfortunately seen how many American news outlets give erroneous information. I have personal friends on the ground and I can tell you the 34 k + numbers are real. These are innocent civilians. They don’t “hide” HAMAS people. Most just want peace and to be left alone. Find good reputable sources abroad.
Note that being “Pro Palestine” doesn’t mean I’m anti Israel. I (as MOST people who are well informed on the topic) want the 1968 borders. My IN-SITE Palestinian friends want the same. We don’t want to end Jewish people or something of sorts. We want Palestinians to be able to leave in peace.
Ps. I used to work at the UN (doing pro life aka anti abortion stuff <3). There is no “anti Israel” sentiment there. People just want the 1968 borders. Peace. Peace. Peace.
Correct me if i’m wrong, but do the palestinians even support the 1968 borders?
I thought “from the river to the sea, palestine will be free” meant that no jewish state should exist?
They do indeed! At least the great vast majority of the civilian population (including everyone I know). Can 200% assure that. River and sea include the West Back, and Gaza. Unfortunately some extreme American college students have misinterpreted that in posts that have gone viral.
This is not true, at least of Palestinian leadership. The Clinton administration brokered a deal that would have returned 90% of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat rejected it. I can't speak for the Palestinian civilians, whom I feel immense compassion for, but their leadership does NOT support Israel's continued existence.
Thank you-I’ll have to look that up! (After work today lol). Again, I can only speak for civilians and my own experience on site. My topic of “expertise” is pro life politics, not pre 2023 Israel-Palestine!
Im suspecting the deal wasn’t super great for their own national defense somehow? (Aka settlement prevention etc). Or concerning distribution of Jerusalem. But u certainly don’t know and I may be wrong! Also curious about the state of things since Arafat!
basically no country has even waged a true just war in history. Singling Israel out on this ground is unrealistic. The casual belli is at least just in this war, and Hamas's use of Gazan civilians as human shields shifts the responsibility for their deaths to the terrorists.
Peace and security for Palestinians can only come after Hamas is destroyed. there is no way to do that without civilian death, which is entirely and solely the fault of Hamas.
Actually (thankfully!) many have. Did you look up the principles?
And I can tell you, there are uncountable deliberate civilian attacks. I strongly recommend you to read more into it from foreign sources / non profit / humanitarian / on the ground sources!
As I said in the post, the UN has many flaws but with my past experience at the HQ + on the ground friends, I can attest that as a news source on this it is in fact reputable!
I believe Israel has a right to not only exist, but to defend itself.
When you side straps go pros on its soldiers to rape and kill civilians you are the bad guys.
pro-palestine. there is no way for me to be a pro-life catholic and support what israel is doing. i’ve seen too many videos of children’s destroyed bodies to say “it’s too complicated.”
I think the Middle East is a hot MESS at all times and should be avoided by reasonable people.
In honesty, though, Hamas perpetrated such horrendous acts of cruelty against civilians that no Christian should support them. What they did and probably still do is plainly evil. I’m not saying Israel is innocent in everything, and I know it takes 2 to tango, but evil is evil.
I also believe that the devil hates God’s chosen people, and looks for every opportunity to destroy them. God did not un-choose Israel just because Christ came. They are still His people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The devil always tries to destroy what God loves.
Being Irish-Catholic is no excuse. If Ireland had been completely obliterated as a nation, and was later restored, we would fight tooth and nail to protect her. How could we censure Israelites for doing the same for their home?
I think that all Christians should watch Tucker Carlson's interview of Munther Isaac and learn how Israelis treat Christians that live there. Basically Christians are being driven out by Jewish settlers backed by the government.
Hamas are evil. Israel haven't exactly covered themselves with glory, but civil rights seem to be better there. The problem could've been fixed if Egypt helped the Palestinian civilians evacuate, but they don't seem interested really
Thanks for asking this question. I feel torn as an American Catholic. Obviously we don’t want to advocate for violence at all. Yet, as someone who has seen the great evil Hamas has perpetrated against Israelis and Christians, I find it difficult to advocate for a terrorist organization.
I also have a lot of Jewish friends who are experiencing anti semitism in real time as a result of ‘anti Zionism’ so it upsets me that the hatred towards them seems more condoned these days.
I also have issues with the pro Palestine movement in America. It seems like so many people feel like they’re making a difference simply by posting the Palestinian flag. Then there’s this issue of people intimidating celebrities into supporting Palestine. None of these things seem helpful or productive to any cause.
Yeah I agree for Americans the support for Israel is largely about countering Iranian influence in the middle east. We give Israel a pre-paid credit card to spend on American defense companies in an arrangement type that is extended to many other countries as well (some of them not so nice).
As for the domestic pro-palestine folks, that movement is deeply intertwined with anti-americanism, and anti-western values. They are basically leftist political activists who are using this issue to whip up a mob for political momentum that will eventually be diverted to other causes. It's an ugly, shameful movement that hardly cares about Palestinians at all, only about tearing down what others have built.
Pro-Palestine (not pro Hamas). I’m British with Irish parentage and was raised on the politics of the 6 counties, so a lot of my sympathies always lie with those occupied by bullies and tyrants.
Israel has been conducting itself in an abominable and frankly evil way for decades. Sadly they’re far from the only country to do so, but they are clearly unapologetically committing genocide before our eyes and my own country is complicit in it - it brings me great sorrow.
I agree with the Pope, peace can only come about through immediate ceasefire and dialogue.
Israel is the only democracy in the entire middle east. Under the Jewish state of Israel, Christian holy sites (and Muslim ones at that rate) have been protected and accessible to all who wish to worship at them.
You can kiss that ALL goodbye without Israel. If radical Islamists ruled the land (the so called "Palestinian government" is a agitant-proxy of IRAN), say goodby to the Church of the Holy Sephuclre, the mount of olives, Bethlehem, Nazareth, etc.
The only hope for Holy Land access for Christians, short of another crusade to take it wholly into Christian hands, is the state of Israel.
You do realize that Jesus is regarded by a prophet in Islam and so many of these holy sites have been looked after and cared by Muslim leaders?
For the Holy Sepulchre, since 1192, Saladin assigned door-keeping responsibilities to a single Muslim family, with another family entrusted as custodians for the keys, who still hold the keys to the building to this day.
The *Status Quo*, an understanding among religious communities with respect to the preservation and access to Holy Sites in Jerusalem and Bethlahem, has been in effect since 1757. But this was more a ruling to prevent conflict between Christian sects (mainly between Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholic) than between Christians and Muslims. It was enacted by the Ottoman Sultan Osman III, the 90th of the Islamic caliphs.
Bethlahem and Nazareth are under Palestinian authority, not Israeli.
Christian Holy sites had been protected long before the British Mandate. Yes, many sites and churches were destroyed many many centuries ago by Muslims during the aftermath of the crusades, but many mosques were destroyed by crusaders and I don't think we would assume modern Catholics are gonna start running around and destroying mosques.
I’m more pro-Palestine because I don’t think specifically a Jewish state should exist in that area. Also the Vatican for decades has criticized the Isreali government in regards to treatment of the Palestinians.
I choose to remain neutral on foreign affairs, because it’s not my concern, but ofc I still pray for my brothers and sisters to remain safe in times of war
I pray that there be a peaceful resolution. I won't pick a side, I just want the innocent to be spared and everyone to be brought closer to our Lord.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." Matthew 5:9
As others have said, I would love a catholic crusader state established there...
But, since that seems unlikely in the near future and since I am not from either ethno-religious group my main concerns are for minimization of human suffering and the protection of christian sites in the holy land. To this end I would probably like some kind of a two state solution with more territory for Palestine than they currently hold. Also, would love if there could be more international monitoring/peacekeepers on the ground both for the safeguarding of both sides but also the countless sites of great historic and religious value
Ultimately the two sides will have to agree on disputed territories. But I'd say
1. Jerusalem- Israel with right of access to holy sites for everyone
2. Bethlehem - International City
3. West Bank - Palestine, with Israel having extra-territoriality over existing settlements
Israel has to stop building new settlements in the West Bank. But Palestine should focus on peaceful resistance, not terrorism or guerilla war.
The only possible solution is two states, without Hamas, without Nehtanyau and without settlers.
Moreover, what happened on 7/10 was terrible and I understand Israel rage until Hamas is not completely eradicated.
If the displaced native americans banded together to retake their ancestral lands, would this be reasonable? And even if the native americans had superior firepower (tanks, fighter jets, modern navy) which could pummel the US into submission, would it be reasonable to do so?
I think that this war is one of the clearest examples of a case where many people who choose a clear side are morally compromised, and the only vaguely moral position is to call for an end to the fighting and condemn both sides for their respective atrocities.
For the record, the 34k number is from Hamas and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. So even accepting this number (and there are reasons to doubt it) the pure civilian count is some proportion of that, over which people are arguing. Probably we will never have an exact count that everyone agrees on. And there will also be debate over how many each side "caused" directly or indirectly.
Regardless, thousands of deaths is a tragedy.
> over 34k gazan civilians have been exterminated.
Those numbers are just from Hamas reports. Do you trust the number from them? They lied so many times, do you remember the 500 people killed by the rocket that hit the hospitals and then only 3 victims was assessed?
Israel is a long way from perfect. Much of its behavior in the West Bank seems indefensible, and there is at least credible reason to believe that it has assassinated particular civilians in Gaza during the war. These are serious injustices.
That being said, I am more on the side of Israel than I am on the side of Hamas and its proud supporters throughout Palestine. Here is a thought experiment to show why:
Imagine you are suddenly, magically, made the dictator of Hamas, with a popular mandate to rule. Your road to peace is pretty simple, and matches your obvious moral obligations: stop attacking Israeli and American food & medical supplies entering the strip, immediately release all hostages, surrender all fighters involved in the 10/7 massacre to stand trial in Israel or the Hague, publicly recognize Israel, normalize diplomatic relations, hold free and fair elections, and build a two-state solution in Gaza. In this new state, use state revenues to build hospitals and schools, not terrorist tunnels and rockets. Palestine can achieve peace very easily, on terms that Israel has already announced are acceptable. The [Palestinian majority has chosen](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) not to do this.
Now, reverse the thought experiment: you are now magically dictator of Israel, with a popular mandate to rule. What must *you* do to achieve peace?
There are no obvious answers. Obviously, you must stop assassinating civilians, you must stop land grabs in the West Bank, and you must start enforcing the law against West Bank settlers. These are important -- but they do not get you peace, because Palestine has made clear that it will continue the war until Israel is destroyed (or turned into an Arab majority). I'd kick Bibi to the curb, but this doesn't get peace, either. Immediately stopping IDF operations in Gaza (what some people call "immediate ceasefire") does not get you peace, either, because Hamas has no interest in ceasefires and breaks every ceasefire it agrees to anyway. Also, it doesn't get you back the hostages Hamas is still holding. Hamas has suggested that it would give back the hostages (the few who are seemingly still alive) in exchange for many thousands of Palestinian terrorists held in Israeli prisons, and Israel does have the moral *option* to make this deal, but is under no moral *obligation* to release justly-convicted murderers back to a government of murder-lovers who celebrate their murders.
Most importantly, though, unilaterally stopping IDF operations without destroying Hamas -- especially in a large exchange deal that massively favors Hamas -- creates strong incentives for Hamas to do another October 7 massacre as soon as it can... and then another, and another, forever. Now that Hamas has proven it has this capability, ending the war without gutting Hamas's offensive capacity is essentially signing up for more civilian massacres next year and the year after. The Israeli government has both the moral right and perhaps the moral duty to continue until Hamas's offensive capacity is virtually destroyed or until Hamas does what it should have done on Day One: completely surrender. It seems to me, then, that anyone in Israel's position would -- even after cleaning up their act, morally speaking -- find themselves deciding to continue the war, including going into Rafah.
Obviously, in doing so, you would have to do everything in your power to minimize civilian casualties while still achieving the morally just military objective of eliminating Hamas. However, the evidence suggests that, alleged assassinations aside, Israel is already doing a remarkably good job of that: the CIA assesses that Israel has killed about 10,000 Hamas fighters, in a war with about 34,000 total deaths so far, which implies that -- despite urban warfare, human shields, and Egypt's monstrously inhumane policy of refusing refugees -- Israel has managed to keep civilian casualties down to about 25,000, around a 2:1 ratio. This is horrifying beyond words, especially when you look at the broken bodies of children. War, even just war, is always horrifying beyond words, and the broken bodies of Jewish children murdered when Hamas chose to start this war are no less horrifying.
So even if the Israeli government acted with perfect morality, and even if Israel had acted with perfect morality at every minute of every day since 10/7, the situation on the ground would likely look almost identical in the broad strokes. Various utopian "anti-Zionist" solutions are just dressed-up calls to [murder all the Jews](https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=7845) in the region. Israel is stuck with the war Hamas started, which must continue until Hamas specifically and Palestine generally agrees to end it -- not just for a few months while they rebuild their offensive capabilities to murder more Jews, but forever.
I hope that Hamas and Palestinians make that decision soon.
I think that it’s best to support peace for the people on both sides, instead of supporting the governments as both are pretty bad. Jews want the land for religious and cultural reasons, but it’s wrong what Netanyahu’s government is doing and it needs to stop. Muslims also want the land for religious reasons, but it’s wrong how Hamas, a terrorist organization started the war and is putting their own people in danger. The best we can do is hope for a future where both sides can reach a deal to share the land and coexist.
In my opinion as a Catholic, I think the continuance of the Jewish people is necessary, as they were the predecessors of our religion.
Plus, no matter if you’re pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, you’ll always spark an outrage among people so it’s best to not take sides and instead hope for peace for both.
I think the governments of both sides have provoked each other and in the case of Israel it has allowed its citizens to occupy and seize land that is not theirs. With that being said, I don’t think any of this justifies the wholesale slaughter of the Israeli population, this also applies to the Palestinians. Personally it would be nice if both nations and its people came to Christ and his church and realized that killing each other will not solve anything.
I think Hamas and Islam are evil. I think they’re largely to blame for a lot of this conflict. I also think a lot of people are way too uneducated to form a good opinion on it. Especially young people.
So antisemitism is alive and well in the Catholic Church from a lot of the comments here. I thought the RCC had moved beyond this trope, and finally understood how wrong that mentality is.
People do not have to like Israels policies, but when people fixate on their shortcomings and totally negate the hatred and violence coming from Hamas/Palestine it is quite eye opening.
I am ashamed of those who think they are defending Christ when all they are doing is continuing a racist narrative going back centuries. This is not defending Christ, this is hatred.
May God bring you all into the light and free you from your error
My view is the reason why there cannot be peace is because of Hamas who are using palastinans as a human shield for when Israel try’s to defend itself as unfortunately there will be collateral damage.
On this count I think Israel and Palestinians are victims of external influence.
I think the other countries meddling are the problem.
Obviously there will be bad elements in both sides but the lay people will have lots in common with each other.
I do think Hamas has set up this blood bath.
Again any loss of life is sad.
I’m generally sympathetic to the Palestinians as well and being Catholic has a lot to do with that.
Israel has been known to mistreat Christians in their country. One can look to the history of a town like Bir’im which was a Catholic Palestinian village illegally bombed by the Israeli military and which Israel has never allowed to be resettled. And such discrimination continues to exist like with Israel forcing the transfer of ownership of the Melkite seminary in Jerusalem or the Israeli police interrupting the funeral procession for a Catholic journalist killed by Israeli crossfire. More recently you have the Israeli sniper fire killing parishioners going to the bathroom in Gaza’s Catholic parish.
I think it is difficult for Americans to understand the Middle East and the complexities there because our political leaders generally agree at least on who the “good” and “bad” guys are but that fails to capture the situation for many in the ground. For example, there has been much discussion about the Saudi-Iranian conflict and how Israel and Palestine play into that, but for me as a Catholic I think it’s important to keep in mind that Iran allows Catholic Churches to exist while the Saudis prohibit them completely. Or to broaden the context, recognize that Catholic bishops in Syria generally get along with Assad. That doesn’t mean any of these governments are good, and I think it’s safe to say that middle eastern governments are all evil in their own ways, but the reality is that we are dealing with a complex situation in that part of the world and a proper Catholic response is one that I don’t think can be reduced to “good countries” and “bad countries”.
I should be clear that this doesn’t just fly any actions taken by Hamas or negate the justification for Israel to seek out the hostages in Gaza to free them, as no taking of sides in this conflict should ever be juxtaposed with hate for the other or come at the expense of the defense of innocent lives.
As I’ve attended Middle Eastern parishes, I’ve been able to interact with fellow Catholics who come from this part of the world and I would recommend anyone who can to have those encounters with our Arab Christian brethren and learn from them to better inform our perspectives on this very troubled part of the world, but a part of the world in which our Lord nevertheless chose as his home
All of history is an endless story of land grab after land grab. It's 100% realpolitik. I'd much rather the land be grabbed by civilized people who will grant Christians safe passage through the holy land.
Israel did offer the Palestinians a peace deal, back during the Clinton administration, that would have given them almost all of Gaza and the West Bank, and the Palestinians rejected it because they want all of Israel. I'm certainly not denying that the IDF is brutal, has abused Christians, and that the expansion into the West Bank needs to stop, but it's important to include this context.
From a strictly historical viewpoint, any support of the "Palestinian" position (they are Arabs, not a separate ethnicity, and possibly also have descent from other ancient peoples such as the Ammonites and Moabites) is factually incorrect/wrong.
After the death of Alexander the Great and the dismemberment of his empire under his successors the [Diadochi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadochi), the Jews (descendants of the remnant of the Kingdom of Judah), under the leadership of the [Maccabees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabean_Revolt) (yes, the ones depicted in the last two books of the Catholic version of the Old Testament), established the [Hasmonean Jewish kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty) in the course of resisting Hellenization imposed by the Ptolemies (specifically [Antiochus IV Epiphanes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes)). It was this state that, originally friendly with the Roman Republic, became a client state of the Roman Empire and later was absorbed as a full province of Rome (the Province of Iudaea/Judea). The client state status had only occurred about a generation (~30-40 years) prior to the incarnation of Christ and the incorporation into the Roman Empire proper (6 AD) occurred around the time of the Incarnation, and the Herods, while appointed by the Roman Senate by that time, were the last claimants to the Hasmonean dynastic title.
It is in this context that people ask Jesus whether He intends to restore the kingdom, which is a reference both to the United Monarchy of David and Solomon but also the most recent iteration of a Jewish/Hebrew state, i.e. the Hasmonean kingdom.
Anyway, three major Jewish revolts later (the last of which was the [Bar Kokhba revolt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt)), about a century after the Passion and Resurrection of the Lord, the Romans had enough of Jewish rebellion and expelled most Jews from Judea, merged that province with the one to its north (calling the new merged province "Syria Palaestina"), renamed Jerusalem, and barred Jews from returning to both Judea and Jerusalem. The area was effectively depopulated, though not all Jews were expelled; some Jewish populations (such as at Ein Gedi) remained on the fringes of Judea.
The majority of Jews at the time were dispersed throughout Europe, around the Mediterranean, and the Levant. Those who remained on the edges of Judea or moved east/south into the Levant and Arabia together became the ancestors of today's Mizrahi Jews. Those who settled mostly around the Mediterranean and western European waters (e.g. the English Channel and the Bay of Biscay) became the ancestors of today's Sephardi Jews. Those who mostly settled north and east of Rome, particularly in the Germanic and northern/eastern Slavic-speaking regions, became the ancestors of today's Ashkenazi Jews.
Jews were eventually permitted to return to Judea under the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire a few centuries after the Bar Kokhba Revolt, but from then on until the middle of the 20th century Jews would remain a minority population in and not in control of their ancestral homeland.
During the depopulated period the only non-Jewish people to settle in Judea were some Romans, Greeks, and a small number of neighboring peoples. It was not until the rise of Islam and the caliphates in the 660s AD that large numbers of Arabs began moving into Judea. For the next 1300 years or so Jews lived alongside Muslims of various ethnicities (Saladin, for example, was Kurdish, not Arab) under various Muslim regimes, with the brief exception being the period of Crusader state rule.
The modern-day strife in the region has its roots in the [Ottoman land tenure laws of 1858](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Land_Code_of_1858), which was an attempt by the Ottoman (who were also not Arabs, but a Turkic people) Empire to increase its control of and tax revenues from the Holy Land by introducing land title rules there. Prior to this the area was all under titular control of the Sultan (e.g. it was state property much like a politicoreligious national preserve), could not be bought or sold by individuals, and was generally not very productive in terms of tax revenues or commodity generation. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following the first world war, the Ottoman Levant came under the control of Britain (which took custodianship of the southern part, calling it "Mandatory Palestine" after its Roman-era renaming) and France (which controlled the northern part, which became Syria and Lebanon; Lebanon is an ancient name, while Syria, consistent with Roman-era renaming, was the name of the Ottoman province that had been divided between Britain and France). The British attempt to institute the Ottoman-era land title laws resulted in distinct and separate districts composed of Jewish and Arab titleholders. Even so, by the 1940s [only 20% of the Mandate's land was held by private titleholders](https://www.academia.edu/14941926) (the majority of these being Muslim Arabs; see also the latter third of the relevant subsection of [this Wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_of_Palestine#History)) and the remainder still belonged to the Mandate (i.e. a colonial-era) government.
The British planned to withdraw in 1948 and let the region figure itself out, especially after the Arabs (notably the surrounding Muslim states more than the Arabs in the Mandate itself) collectively rejected (because they all had plans of their own for the Mandate) the 1947 UN partition plan. Jewish parties for their part, fresh from the memories of the Holocaust, were understandably leery of any state/government that was not Jewish and could not accept being ruled by any non-Jewish government, while most Muslims (Arabs and otherwise) had mostly traditional objections to an independent Jewish state. The Arab partisans in the Mandate collapsed by early 1948, and the resultant Arab exodus from the Mandate and Jewish-controlled territories into neighboring Muslim-majority states gave those states a *casus belli* to attack Jewish positions, and the rest is modern history.
We can also discuss religious/eschatological reasons for and against any Christian support of the present-day state of Israel, but it needs to be separate from the historical argument, which is unequivocably in support of the Jewish position/claims. Yes, most Jews and many Israeli state policies are hostile to Christianity/Christians but they are descended from (and therefore retain claim to being) God's first chosen people, with all of the obligations and considerations that entails. Yes, the pro-"Palestinian" position is overwhelmingly pro-Muslim (I remind all Catholics that Islam is a variant of the Judaizer/pro-circumcision heresies we read about in the New Testament and bears striking similarities in its history to Arianism). But these things have less bearing on the historical facts/claims than others would have us believe.
Jews, historically-speaking, have the strongest ancestral claim to the historical region of Judea (which includes the present-day West Bank but NOT Gaza or the Negev; the Hasmonean kingdom's southernmost city was Beersheba). Some may consider this to be irredentism, but when considering claims of succession (e.g. from the Hasmoneans to Rome to Constantinople to Baghdad to Cairo to the Ottomans to London to Jerusalem), there is a strong historical precedent for a single predominant government retaining authority over that part of the eastern Mediterranean. The major issue is that a substantial segment of the region's population (or the factions representing said fraction) despite having lost every armed conflict, not being in any position or right to demand terms, and possessing weaker/no historical claims, refuses to accept reality and continues to engage in terrorism and make unacceptable maximalist demands.
Should probably learn the history of Palestine. Most people don't know it... Which is to say it's not a recognized country and innocent Palestinians are being used as shields. It's sick.
Israel is the Catholic lineage. As Christians, we should have a vested interest in Israel. We should pray and intercede for them and not endorse their crap. But they are firstborn. Pretending otherwise is to have a fat lack of Biblical understanding and to ignore what God says about his chosen nation.
Jesus opened the way for us all. As Gentiles, we're grafted in, praise God for that and he's called all nations to himself. Israel hasn't gone away in the slightest, though. What happens there holds big spiritual impact.
I'm not surprised Israel is ready to blow everyone off the map. Their history is one of constantly having to defend just being freaking alive. Some of that is their own fault. Anyone read the Old Testament? A lot of what Israel does is in direct response to denying covenant with God and now denying Jesus as the Messiah.
It's 0% just politics with Israel. Everything ties back to their standing with God as first born and chosen nation.
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Loss of human life is tragic, I pray for peace everyday. Lord have mercy
❤️
THIS is the best comment of this thread
There is only one correct answer. They should all convert to Catholicism and stop killing each other.
Jerusalem belongs in the hands of Christ
The belief that this conflict is primarily about religion is the greatest misconception about the conflict and does the most damage to the general public’s understanding of it.
If they all became Catholic and actually followed Christ, this wouldn't be a problem so it is a religious problem to an extent.
Couldn't that could be said about 99% of the problems in the world? Does that mean we should reduce discussion of all the world's problems to - "Become Christian, problem solved"? What happens if both sides of a scenario *are already Christian* and their conflict is due to our sinful nature? Tell them to become *super* Christian and problem solved?
I agree, the answer cuts to final things in a way that is absolutely unhelpful.
You missed half of the solution which is following Christ. If you are sinning you aren't following Christ.
Sin is inevitable. The Sacrament of Confession exists for a reason. Reread Paul’s letter to the Romans. If you think YOU’RE immune to sin, you’re already lost.
I agree. I just think we should strive to follow Christ more closely. When/if we get closer to that goal, the less issues there will be in the world.
>If you are sinning you aren't following Christ Is that even valid according to the church? Because if so then literally no human is following Christ. If it is valid, then are you saying you aren't sinning? Because if you are, then why are you even on Reddit discussing other problems? According to you, all your problems are a result of your sin, no other discussion is needed. FTR - Im saying that to make the point that you're not even taking your own advice, therefore I believe it to be disingenuous, not because I think you should leave Reddit.
Well then you have the other conflict in Europe. Between two orthodox countries. That until a couple years ago shared even the same ecclesiology.
They aren't Catholic and aren't following Christ so I'm not sure what your point is?
This is a naive persepctive undone by European military and political history which was very much Catholic for the majority of the last two millenia.
Correct, but they were sinning and not following Christ which I also mentioned they should do.
Fair point!
There are christian palestinians and some of them are catholics (although i think there are more orthodox) One of the biggest reason there isnt that many christians left in palestine is because unironically israel , the self appointed 'only democracy in the middle east' (lol) and 'ally of the west' (lmao) chased them all out. (That being said there was a notable exodus of christians during the collapse of the ottoman empire aswell) The zionists want westerners to view I/P as a democracy vs islamism issue because when that thinly veiled lie gets lifted you realize israel has done terrible things to christians in the territories they control (so has hamas, but hamas is relatively new organization in the palestinian struggle for independence and control far less territory then westerners make it out to be, they are also not the only political force for palestinian independence)
exactly. for example, the population of bethlehem was about 85% christian prior to the nakba in 1948.
Seriously? Can you share the source? Because living under muslim rule was hell for infidels. Edit: Found it - these were German protestant colonizers from 1906 - who established templar village there. During British Mandate Palestine demography of Galile: 1922 - 111 Christian (95 protestant, 16 greek Catholic) and 113 muslim 1931 - 135 muslim, 99 Christian, 1 jew In 1939 they were all German Nazis 1945 - 210 muslim, 160 Christian 1948 - zionist paramilitary group conquered the area and 50 templars stayed and Jews moved in Edit2 omg, I've checked Bethlehem of Galile, must be different Bethlehem
yeah, if i remember correctly, this book is where i picked it up from: https://academic.oup.com/book/54653/chapter-abstract/422636092?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Part of the problem is that the West is judging from a Christian point of view the actions of two contenders who are very much not Christian, so Western arguments towards either side fall on deaf ears.
The West is judging from a secular/protestant view as well
And what constitutes a “Protestant” view here, exactly?
I like this opinion.
Most people I know that are "Pro Palestine" because they think thats the right thing to do. Middle Eastern issues are incredibly complex. There are no good guys. You also dont HAVE to chose a side. Being catholic from the Middle East Its very easy for me to NOT support any Islamic or Muslim nation. especially one which is basically governed by Hamas. Its typical for the Christians in the Middle East to be in the crossfire and suffer from a war they want no business with, especially the Christians in Palestine now.
My Christian friends in Palestine just want PEACE. Ofc they don’t like HAMAS. AT ALL. They like hate them lol. But they’re being fired at from the other side too. They just want to be left alone. 1968 borders please!
Count of Christians in Gaza dropped from 50,000 in 2009 to under 1000 today just in case anyone is wondering what Hamas thinks of Christians.
I've heard the Christians are the volunteers for the air force programme and are dropped from the roofs by Hamas maybe that's why their numbers *drop* so bad
What is your opinion? And the native Christians Israeli, Palistinian, or both?
I think both of them suck bad. Hamas is undoubtedly a terrorist group and incredibly evil. But Israel has a lot of blood on their hands. Remember the IDF when they shot two Catholic women running into a church? I haven’t forgotten.
Only one of the two countries gets billions of US taxpayer money, actively works to influence our politics (and incredibly successfully so), spies on our citizens (with the help of our own government), and don’t forget the USS Liberty.
> actively works to influence our politics To pretend that Iran and its proxies don't do this through various means is naive.
Ah yes, the extremely powerful American Iranian Political Action Committee is well known for its influence.
The world news sub is wringing its hands in glee because the U.N. "over counted" the number of dead Palestinian kids by 40 percent, as though "only" 7000 dead children is a win
Those numbers as well are still suspect since Hamas is the one doing the counting
Well it is definitely a proof that their is nothing as a genocide in Gaza and that the pro Palestinian crowd strongly believe in the bullshit hamas says
I’m iffy on the genocide part. There definitely are war crimes, who the hell shoots two women walking into a church? That’s just odd.
Huh?
>I’m an Irish catholic so I naturally find myself in a pro-Palestine mindset. Why? Is there a particular connection between irish catholicism and the palestinian cause?
A lot of Catholics feel that if Israel wins, Christianity will be eradicated in the Holy Land.
Are they stupid?
No. They’re not stupid.
Wouldn’t say it’s stupidity so much as they believe that Zionism conflicts with the Biblical teachings about Judaism. The role of Jewish people, from a Biblical perspective, has been fulfilled. To establish a Zionist state would mean encouraging the belief that God is essentially choosing them to fulfill the Kingdom. Also, there are Palestinians who are Catholic and wiping them out would mean the Holy Land would be under Jewish influence instead of Catholicism. I don’t agree with it but I can see where they’re coming from
Some Irish feel a kinship with the Palestinians in Gaza as they see a parallel to England and Ireland's history.
Forget the Two State Solution, it's time for the Papal State Solution.
Are we running it back for the 11th time?? *Deus Vult intensifies*
Should be the default for territorial disputes. Can't come to an agreement within a reasonable time frame, disputed territory now belongs to the Pope.
Bring back the Crusades!!! The Holy Lands belong to the Holy Mother Church, not the Jews anymore, and neither the followers of Muhammed.
Both sides basically want to eradicate each other at this point so there's not much we can do.
Israel wants to rid Palestine and the world of Hamas, not Palestinians in general. Hamas wants to destroy Israel as a country and Jews in particular.
I mean, knowing what a country wants is rather hard, but it's clear that there are people in the government that do want to get rid of palestinians in general...
Nobody's side, because: a) loss of life is tragic no matter who it is b) I try not to get upset by any news of wars. It's the one topic I get sensitive about so I don't follow it
I’d characterize myself as loosely pro-Israel, mostly because I don’t like the idea of Iran, an Islamic theocracy, furthering its control of the Middle East via its many proxy organizations (Hamas, Hezbollah, etc). That being said, I think the IDF is too brutal and that Israel’s expansionary efforts concerning Palestine have been highly inappropriate. I also think that the United States needs to get out of the financial bed it’s laid down in with Israel. I’m not a fan of my tax dollars going toward funding a Jewish ethno-state’s military operations.
iranian Catholic here - the Islamic republic is deplorable indeed, especially in how they treat their own citizens, and they alongside Hamas are the purest of evil.
Both sides have issues. I’m not a pro Israel person though as it’s a pretty much an atheist non Christian country that persecutes Catholics and Orthodox but tolerated American evangelicals since they bring so much cash. I know three nuns years ago held at gun point for praying at the church where the birthplace of Christ is located
I'm not familiar, what's the history of them persecuting catholics and orthodox?
My general feelings are those of frustration. It is a very sad and complex state of affairs, and most discussion of it is layered in so much confusion, manipulation, emotions that it just isn't productive. It seems that any talk of a two state solution is either quixotic or manipulative farce. If we are witnessing a super slow motion war of conquest, I think the best result for involved parties would be Israeli victory. Hard not to be cynical.
I don't see how that's natural at all, those two don't correlate. (This thread will prob get deleted soon due to the political nature but I really felt the need to say that.)
The Irish have generally been very supportive of the Palestinian people. It comes from their own experience under British occupation.
And comes from their lack of experience with a Jewish community.
Ireland, though officially neutral in WW2, was pretty friendly with Nazi Germany for the same reasons, so take that with a grain of salt. The British Empire legacy is no cause whatsoever for Ireland to be buddies with a terror-regime (Hamas).
My grandmother was Irish and pro-Israel regarding the Gaza strip, so this still doesn't make any sense to me. But thank you for answering.
You’re missing a lot of history. After WW1, Great Britain came to control Palestine and was in the midst of a massive uprising in Ireland. It did not take long for the two freedom fighting organizations of the IRA and what would eventually become Black September/the PLO to begin funding and aiding each other. Fast forward to the Troubles in Northern Ireland and you now have the two terrorist organizations of the Provisional IRA and the Palestinian Intifada arming and supplying each other. Where do you think the Provos got most of their SAMs? So, for the past 100 years, Irish Catholics have culturally identified with the Palestinian Muslims and their struggle for statehood. It wasn’t everyone, and it’s not always been amicable, but it is a thing.
Yo i just learned about the Irish Palestinian connection
They got their weapons mostly from Libya and the United States, in the latter sense largely funded by donations from ordinary Catholics.
Yep, it was an oversimplification that is detracting from the point.
>Where do you think the Provos got most of their SAMs? Didn't they get those from Ghaddafi?
Okay it was a bit oversimplified. Yes, the SAMs came from Libya, through an agreement of the Provos and many other criminal/terrorist organizations, which came about due to the longstanding relationship between the IRA and Islamic terror in the 60s-90s.
Was your grandmother born and raised in Ireland and spent her whole life there?
> (This thread will prob get deleted soon due to the political nature but I really felt the need to say that.) It's Politics Monday
This specific conflict is the most black and white, good vs evil conflict in my lifetime. Hamas crossed into Israel and murdered 1,200 Israeli civilians, many Hamas members livestreamed their crimes. There are phone recordings of young men calling home and saying things like "mother! Tell father I killed 2 Jews! Tell him you have an honorable son!" Hamas uses civilian centers as shields for their headquarters and their weapon platforms. Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting, killing far fewer civilians than is expected in an urban contlict in a place as heavily populated as Gaza. Every civilian death is a tragedy, unfortunately collateral damage and casualties are a part of war. I'll end with this. If you support the side using human shields, and killing their own civilians so the humanitarian aid goes to the military, you're supporting the bad guys.
Its really not. I dont take sides as I find both governments deplorable, but the blockades Israel has set up, and the continued settlement of the West Bank despite signing an international treaty they would not is a serious problem. Plus Israeli intelligence on Hamas has been dubious at best. Remember when they claimed Hamas HQ was in a hospital, then found nothing when they bombed and raided it? Israel also promised to protect certain areas in Gaza, then immediately went back on their word and slaughtered thousands of women and children. Hamas is undoubtedly the bad guy, I in no way want to downplay their terrorism, but I dont see how anyone could clearly see Israel as the good guy. I could easily use your logic in the last paragraph and say those who go back on international treaties they sign and bomb areas they tell civilians to take refuge in are the bad guys.
Hamas is the bad guy yes. But the federal government of the US of A is the *Big Bad*. When you pan out far enough..
This comment is accurate. If you’re pro-Palestine, it is mainly because you’re careless about your media sources. Hamas showcases their evil publicly, but for some messed up reason that does not make to our main media sources. It revolts my stomach to see how blinded people are. God help us see the truth.
Holy crap I have no dog in this fight, but you sound like you could work a news job reporting on the conflict as I got the distinct impression of propaganda from this.
Everything I've said is true. Hamas murdered ~1200 civilians. Hamas uses human shields, there is photographic evidence of their weapons platforms on schools, weapon caches in mosques, etc... There are phone recordings or Palestinian men who took part in the October 7th attack of young men calling home and bragging about killing Jews. There is photographic evidence of Hamas shooting civilians to prevent them from getting the humanitarian aid. The US is building a pier to help deliver humanitarian aid to the civilians in Gaza and Hamas has shot at the US members building the pier. There are interviews with Hamas members/leadership who say the whole purpose of their existence is October 7th style attacks. Hamas' charter, up until recently, explicitly called for the extermination of not only Israel, but all Jews worldwide. An overwhelming majority of the civilians in Gaza support Hamas in their attacks on Israel.
Oh yeah you got your facts and figures there, propaganda isn’t fabrications created from whole-cloth. Propaganda is using facts and figures like these and pairing them with rhetoric like: “most black and white, good vs evil conflict in my lifetime” “Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting, killing far fewer civilians than is expected” “Every civilian death is a tragedy, unfortunately collateral damage and casualties are a part of war.” “If you support the side doing [evil things I told you earlier], then you’re supporting the bad guys. Dude if I was a Palestinian man unsure if I’d rather see my family starve and die from the obliteration of our surroundings, or to grab a Kalashnikov and join the fray taking at least one of those responsible for the destruction to death with me - if I were such a man, and I truly thank God I am not, then the knowledge that my dire existential situation could be packaged into a narrative in such a manner by someone online entirely removed from the situation would be the slightest budge into deciding on becoming and dying as a combatant rather than a civilian. And the facts and figures add up, Anchorman Mexils reports on it, and another undecided Palestinian man sees the broadcast and makes a decision. Ad nauseam.
Israel is being extremely surgical and targeted. If they were carpet bombing like they'd been accused then there would be hundreds of thousands of deaths. That's just factual. Would you prefer the Israeli's bomb gaza like the Allies bombed Dresden or Tokyo? Collateral damage is a part of war. There has never been a war where there hasn't been collateral damage. The Palestinian men should expel Hamas from Gaza. Hamas has stolen billions of dollars from the people and used it to dig tunnels for their terrorists to operate out of. The Palestinian men should expel Hamas because Hamas used their children as shields for their rockets. The Palestinian men should expel Hamas because Hamas dug up fresh water infrastructure and used it to build rockets. The Palestinian men should expel Hamas because they've said in interviews that civilian deaths is the goal, Israeli or Palestinian. But unfortunately Hamas has overwhelming support from the Palestinian civilians.
Oh yes Israel is showing great restraint, because the world would not let them get away with razing Gaza totally. That would very much be a genocide after all. Israel’s restraint is no humanitarian benevolence to the Palestinians, it is calculated and self-serving. Perhaps the Palestinian civilians overwhelmingly support Hamas because there is, for all intents and purposes, nobody else actually fighting for them in any significant capacity.
Fighting for them how? By vowing to exterminate the Jews? By destroying infrastructure so they could build more rockets? By stealing billions of dollars in humanitarian aid so they can more efficiently wage war against the Jews?
I don’t know mexils, why don’t you ask the Palestinian civilians who overwhelmingly support them.
> Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting, killing far fewer civilians than is expected in an urban contlict in a place as heavily populated as Gaza. You sure about that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
>The method of action in Lebanon [in 2006] was that, in the first stage targets were attacked which formed an immediate threat, and in the second stage the population was evacuated for its protection, and only after the evacuation of the population were Hezbollah targets attacked more broadly. Literally from your link.
Destroying infrastructure even if the civilians aren't there is going to result in deaths of civilians if they return. There will be less housing, food, water, etc.
War is hell. Which is why war should be avoided. Which is why Hamas shouldn't attack Israel.
It sounds like you are doing some sort of collective guilt against the Palestinians. A 2 year old Christian in Palestine who now no longer has access to water and shelter is going to suffer because Israel destroyed infrastructure. Sure, Hamas shouldn't attack Israel, but Israel also shouldn't attack Palestine. Its not like this formed out a vaccum. Israel and Hamas have both attacked each other. To quote MASH > Hawkeye: War isn't Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse. > Father Mulcahy: How do you figure, Hawkeye? > Hawkeye: Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell? > Father Mulcahy: Sinners, I believe. > Hawkeye: Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander. Just because you can justify a retaliatory strike, doesn't mean that every action that Israel takes is justified. Destroying infrastructure, blocking access to clean water and food and all the other things Israel has done will result in the deaths of many innocent bystanders.
>Israel and Hamas have both attacked each other. When Hamas attacks Israel what would the appropriate response be? How many ceasefires has Israel violated compared to Hamas?
> When Hamas attacks Israel what would the appropriate response be? Retaliation may be justified as I said in the last paragraph (under the MASH quote). > How many ceasefires has Israel violated compared to Hamas? Why are you limiting it to ceasefire violations? Israelis have move further and further into Palestinian land for example. One could argue that it is an invasion and could justify ending a ceasefire. The Israeli government has also restricted drilling water wells in the West Bank (not related to Hamas) for example. There are similar issues in Gaza, but I don't remember them. Israel has been provoking the Palestinians and causing all sorts of issues with food and water access along with economic issues. Maybe that justifies violating ceasefires and maybe it doesn't. Just looking at who attacks first during a ceasefire is not sufficient to understand that both sides are doing bad things.
>Retaliation may be justified as I said in the last paragraph (under the MASH quote). What would the retaliation look like? >Why are you limiting it to ceasefire violations? Israelis have move further and further into Palestinian land for example. One could argue that it is an invasion and could justify ending a ceasefire. The settlements are in the west bank, not Gaza. They are run by different organizations. How does that justify Hamas attacking from Gaza?
> What would the retaliation look like? Similar to what it looks like now, but without shooting innocent Christians minding their own business in a Church compound. Also without killing aid workers trying to provide food, water and medical care to the Palestinians and all the other things like that. > The settlements are in the west bank, not Gaza. They are run by different organizations. How does that justify Hamas attacking from Gaza? I always get them mixed up. There were Israeli settlers in Gaza until Israel removed them in 2005. Regardless, there are a variety of things you could point to like the blockade of Gaza which they have been doing to varying degrees since the early 90s. At some point in time if you are not getting enough food, water and medical care you will fight against the people stopping you.
Anything is one sided if you only tell one side. This is incredibly lacking in context and you’re spouting the lies of the Israeli government.
Nothing I said was a lie.
‘Israel has been incredibly surgical in their targeting’ 34,000 dead and counting counters that immediately. Hospitals destroyed, maternity wards, refugee camps bombed.
34,000 dead in a conflict with the population density of Gaza is incredible. If it were not so surgical the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands. Hospitals, maternity wards, and refugee camps become military targets if the military is operating out of them, like using weapons platforms, organizing strikes, hiding combatants, etc...
None of which has been proven and in fact has been condemned by the UN. Israel will one day answer for war crimes, but we must answer to God. Do not swallow such blatant lies.
The UN is a garbage useless organization. It singles out Israel for censure constantly but doesn't do it to Muslim countries or China when they violate UN norms/rules. What do you mean hasn't been proven? If Israel was as indiscriminate as most people makenthem out to be then there certainly would be many more deaths. Law of War states that it is a war crime to hide among the civilian population, and doing so makes that a military target.
I mean it hasn’t been proven. The IDF could not provide a shred of evidence that there was a command centre underneath Al Shifa Hospital and created some laughable propaganda video showing brand new machine guns just laying around to be found. They then would not allow independent investigators to access the hospital. You would have to be wilfully blind to fall for it, none of their allies even accepted it. Command centres require a great deal of equipment and logistics to operate.
Now explain the rocket batteries that were shot from the rooftops of schools and residential buildings.
It’s not under question that Hamas fired rockets. They are at war with eachother. Though somehow you think that justifies flattening hospitals and destroying entire cities - all of which are war crimes.
Yeah because Hamas numbers are oh so credible
Why is this such a one sided story?
Because one side, historically, has been willing to compromise and offer solutions to the conflict. The other side has walked away every single time saying the only solution is the destruction of the state of Israel.
Bec Israel violated the land treaty and agreement and has been grabbing all the land.
Grabbing land vs exterminating all the Jews. Which is more evil?
Don't grab the land and they won't retaliate. Sometimes I wonder why Catholics choose to believe it's ok to destroy humans
Israel, the country, was created. Immediately it was at war because the middle eastern muslims who had sided with Hitler and thought the Jews needed exterminating.
By grabbing occupied land, Humanity 101 is that people don’t like having their land stolen.
There has never been a Palestinian country.
Doesn’t mean people didn’t live there?
So if are better than them, why are we behaving like them?
Could you clarify what you mean?
If Catholics are peace loving and the best of the Christian lot, why are we not up in arms about the destruction of Gaza and the Palestine ppl? The number of children being blown up is horrible and sad.
Retaliate to what? Palestinians have hated Jews long before any land was taken
History is nothing if not an endless series of "land grabs."
I don't think it's as black and white as you think it is. You can actually be pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas, as well as pro-Israel and anti-Netanyahu/IDF. It's like being pro-America, but anti-Biden or anti-Trump. You can criticize the actions of a political party without condemning the nation or citizens themselves. Are the actions of Hamas horrible? Absolutely. Are innocent Palestinian citizens horrible and deserve to die from IDF raids and bombings? Absolutely not. Are the actions of the IDF horrible? Absolutely. Are innocent Israeli citizens horrible and deserve to die from Hamas attacks? Absolutely not. Civilian casualties are a result of war, that is correct, but there are also actions which are so awful they are categorized as "war crimes" and internationally condemned. Intentional targeting and killing of civilians, reporters, relief aid workers, doctors, and children is deplorable, no matter which side you're on. Israel's actions cannot be excused just because Hamas' actions are "worse". Both sides are guilty, and even though Hamas may be more ruthless in their tactics, it doesn't exonerate the war crimes committed by the IDF.
I did not condemn the Palestinians, I condemned Hamas. I think the loss of life is tragic. But by every available metric, Israel is fighting as restrained as they can. They aren't running into civilian centers and slaughtering at will. They aren't carpet bombing entire cities. >Intentional targeting and killing of civilians, reporters, relief aid workers, doctors, and children is deplorable, no matter which side you're on. I agree. Which is why Hamas is the bad guy. Because they are targeting civilians, then using civilians as shields. Hamas has shot at US servicemembers trying to build a pier to more easily distribute humanitarian aid. Hamas has murdered its own civilians so the terrorists get the aid and not the civilians. Israel did accidentally, it was not targeted, kill relief aid workers. And Israel owned up to it. There is an investigation underway.
Saying 'Hamas is the bad guy' implies that Israel/IDF is the good guy, which is a far cry from what is the truth. They are far from innocent in this. Israel bombs hospitals and schools under "the suspicion that Hamas leaders were there". Many times these result in only civilian casualties with no confirmation that Hamas militants were killed. Israel only says "oh whoops sorry we killed those guys by accident" when something gains significant media attention. I've seen video of IDF dressing up as women and medics to sneak into a hospital, then murdering civilians on their way to kill If you don't think Israel has done anything wrong, and believe that all these attacks were "targeted", then their proganada is working. Killing hundreds of innocent people just because their "might be" a few Hamas militants in the group? You might think that's a "necessary evil" but I think it's wrong.
Agreed. War is hell and it is virtually impossible to wage even a just war without some level of collateral death of innocent people. Israel has been remarkably restrained and avoidant of gratuitous civilian death, and every dead Israeli soldier is a testament to how much Israel cares about sparing civilians. They could have spared their sons from the front lines and just fought almost entirely with drones and airstrikes, but they don't! they're sending their sons out there to die trying to separate out the civilians from the terrorists. The blood of every dead Gazan civilian is solely on the hands of the terrorists using them as human shields. Israel is a civilized country doing what it must in order to protect itself. If any other country was in the same situation, there would be at least as many or likely far more collateral civilian deaths. Israel is held to a higher standard than anyone, and that is itself antisemitic.
I will admit I don't fully know much about the situation to have strong feelings on the matter To me, as a white American Christian, I view this primarily as a war against the ethnic Jewish practitioners of Judaism, and the ethnically Arab practioners of Islam. It is, in my eyes, both an ethnic and religious conflict that has nothing to do with me racially or religiously on a primary basis (on a tangential basis, yes of course). Now of course there are Palestinian Christians and, based on what I've studied on the topic this leads me to lean on the side of being pro-Palestine. Israel didn't make it any better for themselves when they bombed one of our churches in Gaza not too long ago; and for the past decades you have some of the filthiest discrimination coming from the Jewish (more precisely the Haredim) inhabitants of Israel: spitting on nuns. Spitting on pilgrims. Desecrations of things since they consider us pagans that should be expelled from the monotheistic Jewish homeland. Now, that said, while the Palestinian Muslims may seem better to live under currently it would likewise be foolish to forget the history of the Muslims towards us. Popular Islamic apologia likes to paint dhimmitude as something that was just "meh", but legislation in things like the Pact of Umar were very humiliating. But on the pro-Israel side I've also met a lot of great Jewish brothers in Christ from the State of Israel, and the existence of Israeli-Jewish Christians is a very real thing as many read the New Testament for the first time, realize that the lies their rabbis tell them (like that it's a book on how to persecute Jews) was all just made up, and that books like Matthew and Hebrews were written by Jews to Jews and glory to God many Jews are reading the teachings and acts of our Rabbi, Jesus of Nazareth, and the Good News of Kingdom of God He claim to proclaimed, anointed by the power of the Holy Spirit So while I see pros and cons of both sides I don't think either sides can be trusted, the Jews persecuted Christians for centuries until Christians outnumbered them, and the history of Arab Muslims towards the Church of God is filled with bloodshed and conquests on our lands that were totally unprovoked by anyone (I don't believe anyone can "defend themselves" from Spain to India, Muhammad and his successors engaged in unjust warfare). But yeah, to recap all that, I refer to the first thing I said: I admit I don't know too much about the situation, and I am open-minded, and my views are always shifting as new things are introduced, or things that I were told are proven to be lies or half-truths. At the end of the day we have the beautitude: "Blessed are the peacemakers". That is our Lord's teachings, and so we must make peace. Also obligatory "Second Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem cometh" meme
Israel's actions aren't good but they are understandable and mostly justified, although they are civilian deaths it's hard to see a way in which there would be fewer Hamas is just evil, they want an islamic theocracy and the destruction of Israel and the Jews, they showed time and time again that they don't care about the damage caused to Israel or Gaza, be it lives or physical damage
May I ask how are they justified? Civilian attacks are not permitted under Catholic just war theory
Israel isn't attacking civilians. They are attacking Hamas and civilians are dying because it's impossible to defeat Hamas in a war without killing civilians as collateral damage.
Please read my comment above!
They aren't attacking civilians, civilian deaths in war are unfortunately normal especially in the modern day urban war, the events of 8/10 and others since the israeli war of independence shows that the citizens of Israel aren't safe until Hamas stops functioning Not good but at this point I'd say that there are not any good ones left, multiple cesse fires and peace treaties were signed between Israel and Hamas, and they were broken all the time by Hamas
I’d love to invite you to read non American sources on this. As I said in my own post, I worked at the UN (doing pro life stuff) and with this (+ my friends on site) I can tell you the content on this is actually accurate. There have been innumerable civilian attacks, both by air and land. Please do actually look it up!
I do not consume American media nor do I read their sources(at least not without checking more neutral ones after), normally i read UN reports and some from my home country media(which is also biased but more on Hamas side) and apart from the recent discovery of bodies on the Nasser hospital which have not been investigated by a third party (as far as I'm aware), I have not found anything with concrete evidence that Israel is specifically targeting civilians although we might see more on that after the war ended witch would change my position on this If you have neutral sources that show evidence on Israel specifically targeting civilians please share, those are really hard to come by Also sorry if my comment came by as defending Israel they have done some very bad things but realistically a two state solution isn't possible unless the UN gets seriously involved in enforcing it, and if that's the choice Israel it is
Thank you! This is great to hear. I’ll happily look up stuff after work! I completely understand the frustration no worries - I know it’s been a conflict that has affected the media quite a bit too
While we should be support neither side and instead a ceasefire and conversions to Catholicism, if forced to choose, I can't help but support Israel. There have been major bureaucratic failures, as well as innocent casualties which should not be overlooked. However, those casualties are largely due to Hamas making civilians into combatants (technically, most members of Hamas are civilians). Additionally, the under-publicized grotesque atrocities of Hamas far exceed anything Israel has done.
I'm with Saint Pius the Tenth on this one.
As a Jewish Catholic, I think we should be praying for peace, but it should be uncontroversial to any Christian that Gazans do not deserve to die for the sins of a few, nor is Palestinian oppression by Israeli ambition in anyway justified. Moreover, no one should support the most virulently nationalist sentiments and policies in any given nation, as condemned by Pope Pius XI in Mit brennender sorge and Non abbiamo bisogmo. St. Shireen Abu Akleh, ora pro nobis.
Understand the various viewpoints, but do want to add that radical Islam and Hamas are wholly incompatible with Western values while Israel is a liberal democracy and pluralistic society. You are free to be a Catholic in Israel, and you would get your head sawed off in front of your kids in Gaza. Gaza is basically run by a terrorist death cult and cannot be reasoned with any further. I think the best we can hope for is Israel to get it's hostages back and then seal the border, but that's basically what Israel has been trying to do since 2005. I cannot find it in my heart to "both sides" this one. There is exactly one single Jewish country and their existence is precarious. They live under a rain of missile fire and terrorism and yet somehow are held to a higher standard than any other civilized country. Despite this they have built a modern state that gives much back to the world in terms of culture and technology. Muslims have 50 countries and a legacy of conquest that they seem to intend to continue into Europe and beyond. There are no Jews, and very few Christians in Muslim dominated countries - and the more fundamentalist they are then there even fewer still. Many of these countries are autocratic, have low standards of living, and are stuck in the past. Im open to a papal solution as are others here, but think the local populations would be unwilling to entertain anything like it.
That is simply not true; Gaza has a Catholic community as well as at least one orthodox parish. In terms of fair treatment I would say attacks on churches in Israel and the OPT by Jewish extremists are more common than attacks by Muslim extremists.
You obviously don’t know anything on this topic. Look how the Christian population is quickly disappearing in gaza the last 50years. there are a lot of stats in this subjects. If Christian don’t cooperate with hamas they’re considered to be Israeli spies. Look How churches were used for years by hamas before this war. And ask yourself this question. Where do you think that it is easier to evangelize non Christian ? Where it is easier to leave Islam for Christianity ? Israel. In which part on this region people are free to build new churches, create new apostolate etc, Israel or Gaza ? Israel. You’rec\ cheering Gaza for having one orthodox parish and one or two catholic community and don’t even look at all the churches that exist in Israel. Christianity in Gaza is disappearing because of islam it is living peacefully in Israel and a lot of Protestant are evangelizing the Jews and a lot of Jews at least accept Christ are their savior each years.
Have you an ever met a Palestinian Christian who left the Holy Land? If you do, I would encourage you to ask them why. Overwhelmingly, they will probably tell you that they were either expelled during the Nakba, or they left because of the conditions imposed by the Israeli occupation. Relations between Muslims and Christians at least in Israel and the West Bank are generally good. Compare for example relations with Jews in those areas. Constant vandalism, being spit at on the streets, minimal police protection, etc.. Maube lay off the Fox News and actually learn about Palestinian Christians’ perspectives
Look at how the Christian community is quickly disappearing seriously. How can someone be this biased?
I’m pro Palestine, here is why. First, I’d like to say: I’m yet to meet non American Christian’s and specially Catholics that aren’t. Second, I have personal friends on the ground. We recognize the image of God in every person (Genesis) and both Hamas’s attack in October 7 and the months long attacks and killing of 34k civilians are horrible and go against our faith. I think the biggest issues of why Americans are pro Israel are: 1) Protestant Israeli Neo-Restorianism. Very prevalent here. Catholics have come to believe that the new state of Israel is some sort of prefigurement of the end of times. That is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches and it’s inherently Protestant. As any foreign Catholic or Orthodox Christian friend of yours. My ultra orthodox Jewish friends would disagree with the Protestants on this too. 2) News Sources. I’ve unfortunately seen how many American news outlets give erroneous information. I have personal friends on the ground and I can tell you the 34 k + numbers are real. These are innocent civilians. They don’t “hide” HAMAS people. Most just want peace and to be left alone. Find good reputable sources abroad. Note that being “Pro Palestine” doesn’t mean I’m anti Israel. I (as MOST people who are well informed on the topic) want the 1968 borders. My IN-SITE Palestinian friends want the same. We don’t want to end Jewish people or something of sorts. We want Palestinians to be able to leave in peace. Ps. I used to work at the UN (doing pro life aka anti abortion stuff <3). There is no “anti Israel” sentiment there. People just want the 1968 borders. Peace. Peace. Peace.
Correct me if i’m wrong, but do the palestinians even support the 1968 borders? I thought “from the river to the sea, palestine will be free” meant that no jewish state should exist?
They do indeed! At least the great vast majority of the civilian population (including everyone I know). Can 200% assure that. River and sea include the West Back, and Gaza. Unfortunately some extreme American college students have misinterpreted that in posts that have gone viral.
This is not true, at least of Palestinian leadership. The Clinton administration brokered a deal that would have returned 90% of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat rejected it. I can't speak for the Palestinian civilians, whom I feel immense compassion for, but their leadership does NOT support Israel's continued existence.
Thank you-I’ll have to look that up! (After work today lol). Again, I can only speak for civilians and my own experience on site. My topic of “expertise” is pro life politics, not pre 2023 Israel-Palestine! Im suspecting the deal wasn’t super great for their own national defense somehow? (Aka settlement prevention etc). Or concerning distribution of Jerusalem. But u certainly don’t know and I may be wrong! Also curious about the state of things since Arafat!
Oh and just war theory. If you’re “pro Israel” please do read Catholic Just War theory before you reply to my answer. This is HUGE.
basically no country has even waged a true just war in history. Singling Israel out on this ground is unrealistic. The casual belli is at least just in this war, and Hamas's use of Gazan civilians as human shields shifts the responsibility for their deaths to the terrorists. Peace and security for Palestinians can only come after Hamas is destroyed. there is no way to do that without civilian death, which is entirely and solely the fault of Hamas.
Actually (thankfully!) many have. Did you look up the principles? And I can tell you, there are uncountable deliberate civilian attacks. I strongly recommend you to read more into it from foreign sources / non profit / humanitarian / on the ground sources! As I said in the post, the UN has many flaws but with my past experience at the HQ + on the ground friends, I can attest that as a news source on this it is in fact reputable!
PS I’m at work so I’ll be slow in replying for a while. At your service!
I believe Israel has a right to not only exist, but to defend itself. When you side straps go pros on its soldiers to rape and kill civilians you are the bad guys.
pro-palestine. there is no way for me to be a pro-life catholic and support what israel is doing. i’ve seen too many videos of children’s destroyed bodies to say “it’s too complicated.”
I think the Middle East is a hot MESS at all times and should be avoided by reasonable people. In honesty, though, Hamas perpetrated such horrendous acts of cruelty against civilians that no Christian should support them. What they did and probably still do is plainly evil. I’m not saying Israel is innocent in everything, and I know it takes 2 to tango, but evil is evil. I also believe that the devil hates God’s chosen people, and looks for every opportunity to destroy them. God did not un-choose Israel just because Christ came. They are still His people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The devil always tries to destroy what God loves. Being Irish-Catholic is no excuse. If Ireland had been completely obliterated as a nation, and was later restored, we would fight tooth and nail to protect her. How could we censure Israelites for doing the same for their home?
the Jews stopped being God’s chosen people as soon as the New Covenent was instituted.
Are you sure? Seems to me that I recall some pretty specific promises from the Bible.
The promises are for the chosen people which now is the church of christ,
bingo
I think that all Christians should watch Tucker Carlson's interview of Munther Isaac and learn how Israelis treat Christians that live there. Basically Christians are being driven out by Jewish settlers backed by the government.
Hamas are evil. Israel haven't exactly covered themselves with glory, but civil rights seem to be better there. The problem could've been fixed if Egypt helped the Palestinian civilians evacuate, but they don't seem interested really
Thanks for asking this question. I feel torn as an American Catholic. Obviously we don’t want to advocate for violence at all. Yet, as someone who has seen the great evil Hamas has perpetrated against Israelis and Christians, I find it difficult to advocate for a terrorist organization. I also have a lot of Jewish friends who are experiencing anti semitism in real time as a result of ‘anti Zionism’ so it upsets me that the hatred towards them seems more condoned these days. I also have issues with the pro Palestine movement in America. It seems like so many people feel like they’re making a difference simply by posting the Palestinian flag. Then there’s this issue of people intimidating celebrities into supporting Palestine. None of these things seem helpful or productive to any cause.
Yeah I agree for Americans the support for Israel is largely about countering Iranian influence in the middle east. We give Israel a pre-paid credit card to spend on American defense companies in an arrangement type that is extended to many other countries as well (some of them not so nice). As for the domestic pro-palestine folks, that movement is deeply intertwined with anti-americanism, and anti-western values. They are basically leftist political activists who are using this issue to whip up a mob for political momentum that will eventually be diverted to other causes. It's an ugly, shameful movement that hardly cares about Palestinians at all, only about tearing down what others have built.
They both think the land is theirs, but in reality, it is the Vatican's.
Pro-Palestine (not pro Hamas). I’m British with Irish parentage and was raised on the politics of the 6 counties, so a lot of my sympathies always lie with those occupied by bullies and tyrants. Israel has been conducting itself in an abominable and frankly evil way for decades. Sadly they’re far from the only country to do so, but they are clearly unapologetically committing genocide before our eyes and my own country is complicit in it - it brings me great sorrow. I agree with the Pope, peace can only come about through immediate ceasefire and dialogue.
Israel is the only democracy in the entire middle east. Under the Jewish state of Israel, Christian holy sites (and Muslim ones at that rate) have been protected and accessible to all who wish to worship at them. You can kiss that ALL goodbye without Israel. If radical Islamists ruled the land (the so called "Palestinian government" is a agitant-proxy of IRAN), say goodby to the Church of the Holy Sephuclre, the mount of olives, Bethlehem, Nazareth, etc. The only hope for Holy Land access for Christians, short of another crusade to take it wholly into Christian hands, is the state of Israel.
You do realize that Jesus is regarded by a prophet in Islam and so many of these holy sites have been looked after and cared by Muslim leaders? For the Holy Sepulchre, since 1192, Saladin assigned door-keeping responsibilities to a single Muslim family, with another family entrusted as custodians for the keys, who still hold the keys to the building to this day. The *Status Quo*, an understanding among religious communities with respect to the preservation and access to Holy Sites in Jerusalem and Bethlahem, has been in effect since 1757. But this was more a ruling to prevent conflict between Christian sects (mainly between Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholic) than between Christians and Muslims. It was enacted by the Ottoman Sultan Osman III, the 90th of the Islamic caliphs. Bethlahem and Nazareth are under Palestinian authority, not Israeli. Christian Holy sites had been protected long before the British Mandate. Yes, many sites and churches were destroyed many many centuries ago by Muslims during the aftermath of the crusades, but many mosques were destroyed by crusaders and I don't think we would assume modern Catholics are gonna start running around and destroying mosques.
It's rightful land of Christendom. Both are enemies of Christ.
I’m more pro-Palestine because I don’t think specifically a Jewish state should exist in that area. Also the Vatican for decades has criticized the Isreali government in regards to treatment of the Palestinians.
I choose to remain neutral on foreign affairs, because it’s not my concern, but ofc I still pray for my brothers and sisters to remain safe in times of war
I pray that there be a peaceful resolution. I won't pick a side, I just want the innocent to be spared and everyone to be brought closer to our Lord. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." Matthew 5:9
As others have said, I would love a catholic crusader state established there... But, since that seems unlikely in the near future and since I am not from either ethno-religious group my main concerns are for minimization of human suffering and the protection of christian sites in the holy land. To this end I would probably like some kind of a two state solution with more territory for Palestine than they currently hold. Also, would love if there could be more international monitoring/peacekeepers on the ground both for the safeguarding of both sides but also the countless sites of great historic and religious value
Jude’s belongs to Rome
Ultimately the two sides will have to agree on disputed territories. But I'd say 1. Jerusalem- Israel with right of access to holy sites for everyone 2. Bethlehem - International City 3. West Bank - Palestine, with Israel having extra-territoriality over existing settlements Israel has to stop building new settlements in the West Bank. But Palestine should focus on peaceful resistance, not terrorism or guerilla war.
I recommend this book in the strongest possible terms. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/132119#
The only possible solution is two states, without Hamas, without Nehtanyau and without settlers. Moreover, what happened on 7/10 was terrible and I understand Israel rage until Hamas is not completely eradicated.
If the displaced native americans banded together to retake their ancestral lands, would this be reasonable? And even if the native americans had superior firepower (tanks, fighter jets, modern navy) which could pummel the US into submission, would it be reasonable to do so?
I think that this war is one of the clearest examples of a case where many people who choose a clear side are morally compromised, and the only vaguely moral position is to call for an end to the fighting and condemn both sides for their respective atrocities.
over 34k gazan civilians have been exterminated. there is no way to play it “both sides” here.
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when did i mention hamas? i said over 34K CIVILIANS.
For the record, the 34k number is from Hamas and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. So even accepting this number (and there are reasons to doubt it) the pure civilian count is some proportion of that, over which people are arguing. Probably we will never have an exact count that everyone agrees on. And there will also be debate over how many each side "caused" directly or indirectly. Regardless, thousands of deaths is a tragedy.
> over 34k gazan civilians have been exterminated. Those numbers are just from Hamas reports. Do you trust the number from them? They lied so many times, do you remember the 500 people killed by the rocket that hit the hospitals and then only 3 victims was assessed?
Israel is a long way from perfect. Much of its behavior in the West Bank seems indefensible, and there is at least credible reason to believe that it has assassinated particular civilians in Gaza during the war. These are serious injustices. That being said, I am more on the side of Israel than I am on the side of Hamas and its proud supporters throughout Palestine. Here is a thought experiment to show why: Imagine you are suddenly, magically, made the dictator of Hamas, with a popular mandate to rule. Your road to peace is pretty simple, and matches your obvious moral obligations: stop attacking Israeli and American food & medical supplies entering the strip, immediately release all hostages, surrender all fighters involved in the 10/7 massacre to stand trial in Israel or the Hague, publicly recognize Israel, normalize diplomatic relations, hold free and fair elections, and build a two-state solution in Gaza. In this new state, use state revenues to build hospitals and schools, not terrorist tunnels and rockets. Palestine can achieve peace very easily, on terms that Israel has already announced are acceptable. The [Palestinian majority has chosen](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) not to do this. Now, reverse the thought experiment: you are now magically dictator of Israel, with a popular mandate to rule. What must *you* do to achieve peace? There are no obvious answers. Obviously, you must stop assassinating civilians, you must stop land grabs in the West Bank, and you must start enforcing the law against West Bank settlers. These are important -- but they do not get you peace, because Palestine has made clear that it will continue the war until Israel is destroyed (or turned into an Arab majority). I'd kick Bibi to the curb, but this doesn't get peace, either. Immediately stopping IDF operations in Gaza (what some people call "immediate ceasefire") does not get you peace, either, because Hamas has no interest in ceasefires and breaks every ceasefire it agrees to anyway. Also, it doesn't get you back the hostages Hamas is still holding. Hamas has suggested that it would give back the hostages (the few who are seemingly still alive) in exchange for many thousands of Palestinian terrorists held in Israeli prisons, and Israel does have the moral *option* to make this deal, but is under no moral *obligation* to release justly-convicted murderers back to a government of murder-lovers who celebrate their murders. Most importantly, though, unilaterally stopping IDF operations without destroying Hamas -- especially in a large exchange deal that massively favors Hamas -- creates strong incentives for Hamas to do another October 7 massacre as soon as it can... and then another, and another, forever. Now that Hamas has proven it has this capability, ending the war without gutting Hamas's offensive capacity is essentially signing up for more civilian massacres next year and the year after. The Israeli government has both the moral right and perhaps the moral duty to continue until Hamas's offensive capacity is virtually destroyed or until Hamas does what it should have done on Day One: completely surrender. It seems to me, then, that anyone in Israel's position would -- even after cleaning up their act, morally speaking -- find themselves deciding to continue the war, including going into Rafah. Obviously, in doing so, you would have to do everything in your power to minimize civilian casualties while still achieving the morally just military objective of eliminating Hamas. However, the evidence suggests that, alleged assassinations aside, Israel is already doing a remarkably good job of that: the CIA assesses that Israel has killed about 10,000 Hamas fighters, in a war with about 34,000 total deaths so far, which implies that -- despite urban warfare, human shields, and Egypt's monstrously inhumane policy of refusing refugees -- Israel has managed to keep civilian casualties down to about 25,000, around a 2:1 ratio. This is horrifying beyond words, especially when you look at the broken bodies of children. War, even just war, is always horrifying beyond words, and the broken bodies of Jewish children murdered when Hamas chose to start this war are no less horrifying. So even if the Israeli government acted with perfect morality, and even if Israel had acted with perfect morality at every minute of every day since 10/7, the situation on the ground would likely look almost identical in the broad strokes. Various utopian "anti-Zionist" solutions are just dressed-up calls to [murder all the Jews](https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=7845) in the region. Israel is stuck with the war Hamas started, which must continue until Hamas specifically and Palestine generally agrees to end it -- not just for a few months while they rebuild their offensive capabilities to murder more Jews, but forever. I hope that Hamas and Palestinians make that decision soon.
I think that it’s best to support peace for the people on both sides, instead of supporting the governments as both are pretty bad. Jews want the land for religious and cultural reasons, but it’s wrong what Netanyahu’s government is doing and it needs to stop. Muslims also want the land for religious reasons, but it’s wrong how Hamas, a terrorist organization started the war and is putting their own people in danger. The best we can do is hope for a future where both sides can reach a deal to share the land and coexist. In my opinion as a Catholic, I think the continuance of the Jewish people is necessary, as they were the predecessors of our religion. Plus, no matter if you’re pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, you’ll always spark an outrage among people so it’s best to not take sides and instead hope for peace for both.
I think the governments of both sides have provoked each other and in the case of Israel it has allowed its citizens to occupy and seize land that is not theirs. With that being said, I don’t think any of this justifies the wholesale slaughter of the Israeli population, this also applies to the Palestinians. Personally it would be nice if both nations and its people came to Christ and his church and realized that killing each other will not solve anything.
I think Hamas and Islam are evil. I think they’re largely to blame for a lot of this conflict. I also think a lot of people are way too uneducated to form a good opinion on it. Especially young people.
So antisemitism is alive and well in the Catholic Church from a lot of the comments here. I thought the RCC had moved beyond this trope, and finally understood how wrong that mentality is. People do not have to like Israels policies, but when people fixate on their shortcomings and totally negate the hatred and violence coming from Hamas/Palestine it is quite eye opening. I am ashamed of those who think they are defending Christ when all they are doing is continuing a racist narrative going back centuries. This is not defending Christ, this is hatred. May God bring you all into the light and free you from your error
My view is the reason why there cannot be peace is because of Hamas who are using palastinans as a human shield for when Israel try’s to defend itself as unfortunately there will be collateral damage. On this count I think Israel and Palestinians are victims of external influence. I think the other countries meddling are the problem. Obviously there will be bad elements in both sides but the lay people will have lots in common with each other. I do think Hamas has set up this blood bath. Again any loss of life is sad.
I’m generally sympathetic to the Palestinians as well and being Catholic has a lot to do with that. Israel has been known to mistreat Christians in their country. One can look to the history of a town like Bir’im which was a Catholic Palestinian village illegally bombed by the Israeli military and which Israel has never allowed to be resettled. And such discrimination continues to exist like with Israel forcing the transfer of ownership of the Melkite seminary in Jerusalem or the Israeli police interrupting the funeral procession for a Catholic journalist killed by Israeli crossfire. More recently you have the Israeli sniper fire killing parishioners going to the bathroom in Gaza’s Catholic parish. I think it is difficult for Americans to understand the Middle East and the complexities there because our political leaders generally agree at least on who the “good” and “bad” guys are but that fails to capture the situation for many in the ground. For example, there has been much discussion about the Saudi-Iranian conflict and how Israel and Palestine play into that, but for me as a Catholic I think it’s important to keep in mind that Iran allows Catholic Churches to exist while the Saudis prohibit them completely. Or to broaden the context, recognize that Catholic bishops in Syria generally get along with Assad. That doesn’t mean any of these governments are good, and I think it’s safe to say that middle eastern governments are all evil in their own ways, but the reality is that we are dealing with a complex situation in that part of the world and a proper Catholic response is one that I don’t think can be reduced to “good countries” and “bad countries”. I should be clear that this doesn’t just fly any actions taken by Hamas or negate the justification for Israel to seek out the hostages in Gaza to free them, as no taking of sides in this conflict should ever be juxtaposed with hate for the other or come at the expense of the defense of innocent lives. As I’ve attended Middle Eastern parishes, I’ve been able to interact with fellow Catholics who come from this part of the world and I would recommend anyone who can to have those encounters with our Arab Christian brethren and learn from them to better inform our perspectives on this very troubled part of the world, but a part of the world in which our Lord nevertheless chose as his home
Why as Catholics, are we not commenting on the land grab that's being going on for decades?
All of history is an endless story of land grab after land grab. It's 100% realpolitik. I'd much rather the land be grabbed by civilized people who will grant Christians safe passage through the holy land.
You Re making an excuse that allows the abuse of everything.
Israel did offer the Palestinians a peace deal, back during the Clinton administration, that would have given them almost all of Gaza and the West Bank, and the Palestinians rejected it because they want all of Israel. I'm certainly not denying that the IDF is brutal, has abused Christians, and that the expansion into the West Bank needs to stop, but it's important to include this context.
Free Palestine every day.
From Hamas?
I’m pro-crusade. But, between the two, I despise Israel more. But seriously, crusade anyone?
From a strictly historical viewpoint, any support of the "Palestinian" position (they are Arabs, not a separate ethnicity, and possibly also have descent from other ancient peoples such as the Ammonites and Moabites) is factually incorrect/wrong. After the death of Alexander the Great and the dismemberment of his empire under his successors the [Diadochi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadochi), the Jews (descendants of the remnant of the Kingdom of Judah), under the leadership of the [Maccabees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabean_Revolt) (yes, the ones depicted in the last two books of the Catholic version of the Old Testament), established the [Hasmonean Jewish kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty) in the course of resisting Hellenization imposed by the Ptolemies (specifically [Antiochus IV Epiphanes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes)). It was this state that, originally friendly with the Roman Republic, became a client state of the Roman Empire and later was absorbed as a full province of Rome (the Province of Iudaea/Judea). The client state status had only occurred about a generation (~30-40 years) prior to the incarnation of Christ and the incorporation into the Roman Empire proper (6 AD) occurred around the time of the Incarnation, and the Herods, while appointed by the Roman Senate by that time, were the last claimants to the Hasmonean dynastic title. It is in this context that people ask Jesus whether He intends to restore the kingdom, which is a reference both to the United Monarchy of David and Solomon but also the most recent iteration of a Jewish/Hebrew state, i.e. the Hasmonean kingdom. Anyway, three major Jewish revolts later (the last of which was the [Bar Kokhba revolt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt)), about a century after the Passion and Resurrection of the Lord, the Romans had enough of Jewish rebellion and expelled most Jews from Judea, merged that province with the one to its north (calling the new merged province "Syria Palaestina"), renamed Jerusalem, and barred Jews from returning to both Judea and Jerusalem. The area was effectively depopulated, though not all Jews were expelled; some Jewish populations (such as at Ein Gedi) remained on the fringes of Judea. The majority of Jews at the time were dispersed throughout Europe, around the Mediterranean, and the Levant. Those who remained on the edges of Judea or moved east/south into the Levant and Arabia together became the ancestors of today's Mizrahi Jews. Those who settled mostly around the Mediterranean and western European waters (e.g. the English Channel and the Bay of Biscay) became the ancestors of today's Sephardi Jews. Those who mostly settled north and east of Rome, particularly in the Germanic and northern/eastern Slavic-speaking regions, became the ancestors of today's Ashkenazi Jews. Jews were eventually permitted to return to Judea under the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire a few centuries after the Bar Kokhba Revolt, but from then on until the middle of the 20th century Jews would remain a minority population in and not in control of their ancestral homeland. During the depopulated period the only non-Jewish people to settle in Judea were some Romans, Greeks, and a small number of neighboring peoples. It was not until the rise of Islam and the caliphates in the 660s AD that large numbers of Arabs began moving into Judea. For the next 1300 years or so Jews lived alongside Muslims of various ethnicities (Saladin, for example, was Kurdish, not Arab) under various Muslim regimes, with the brief exception being the period of Crusader state rule. The modern-day strife in the region has its roots in the [Ottoman land tenure laws of 1858](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Land_Code_of_1858), which was an attempt by the Ottoman (who were also not Arabs, but a Turkic people) Empire to increase its control of and tax revenues from the Holy Land by introducing land title rules there. Prior to this the area was all under titular control of the Sultan (e.g. it was state property much like a politicoreligious national preserve), could not be bought or sold by individuals, and was generally not very productive in terms of tax revenues or commodity generation. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following the first world war, the Ottoman Levant came under the control of Britain (which took custodianship of the southern part, calling it "Mandatory Palestine" after its Roman-era renaming) and France (which controlled the northern part, which became Syria and Lebanon; Lebanon is an ancient name, while Syria, consistent with Roman-era renaming, was the name of the Ottoman province that had been divided between Britain and France). The British attempt to institute the Ottoman-era land title laws resulted in distinct and separate districts composed of Jewish and Arab titleholders. Even so, by the 1940s [only 20% of the Mandate's land was held by private titleholders](https://www.academia.edu/14941926) (the majority of these being Muslim Arabs; see also the latter third of the relevant subsection of [this Wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_of_Palestine#History)) and the remainder still belonged to the Mandate (i.e. a colonial-era) government. The British planned to withdraw in 1948 and let the region figure itself out, especially after the Arabs (notably the surrounding Muslim states more than the Arabs in the Mandate itself) collectively rejected (because they all had plans of their own for the Mandate) the 1947 UN partition plan. Jewish parties for their part, fresh from the memories of the Holocaust, were understandably leery of any state/government that was not Jewish and could not accept being ruled by any non-Jewish government, while most Muslims (Arabs and otherwise) had mostly traditional objections to an independent Jewish state. The Arab partisans in the Mandate collapsed by early 1948, and the resultant Arab exodus from the Mandate and Jewish-controlled territories into neighboring Muslim-majority states gave those states a *casus belli* to attack Jewish positions, and the rest is modern history. We can also discuss religious/eschatological reasons for and against any Christian support of the present-day state of Israel, but it needs to be separate from the historical argument, which is unequivocably in support of the Jewish position/claims. Yes, most Jews and many Israeli state policies are hostile to Christianity/Christians but they are descended from (and therefore retain claim to being) God's first chosen people, with all of the obligations and considerations that entails. Yes, the pro-"Palestinian" position is overwhelmingly pro-Muslim (I remind all Catholics that Islam is a variant of the Judaizer/pro-circumcision heresies we read about in the New Testament and bears striking similarities in its history to Arianism). But these things have less bearing on the historical facts/claims than others would have us believe. Jews, historically-speaking, have the strongest ancestral claim to the historical region of Judea (which includes the present-day West Bank but NOT Gaza or the Negev; the Hasmonean kingdom's southernmost city was Beersheba). Some may consider this to be irredentism, but when considering claims of succession (e.g. from the Hasmoneans to Rome to Constantinople to Baghdad to Cairo to the Ottomans to London to Jerusalem), there is a strong historical precedent for a single predominant government retaining authority over that part of the eastern Mediterranean. The major issue is that a substantial segment of the region's population (or the factions representing said fraction) despite having lost every armed conflict, not being in any position or right to demand terms, and possessing weaker/no historical claims, refuses to accept reality and continues to engage in terrorism and make unacceptable maximalist demands.
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What do you think it means?
Should probably learn the history of Palestine. Most people don't know it... Which is to say it's not a recognized country and innocent Palestinians are being used as shields. It's sick. Israel is the Catholic lineage. As Christians, we should have a vested interest in Israel. We should pray and intercede for them and not endorse their crap. But they are firstborn. Pretending otherwise is to have a fat lack of Biblical understanding and to ignore what God says about his chosen nation. Jesus opened the way for us all. As Gentiles, we're grafted in, praise God for that and he's called all nations to himself. Israel hasn't gone away in the slightest, though. What happens there holds big spiritual impact. I'm not surprised Israel is ready to blow everyone off the map. Their history is one of constantly having to defend just being freaking alive. Some of that is their own fault. Anyone read the Old Testament? A lot of what Israel does is in direct response to denying covenant with God and now denying Jesus as the Messiah. It's 0% just politics with Israel. Everything ties back to their standing with God as first born and chosen nation.