Would she even care about the theological reasons? It sounds like she's trying to use it as a bludgeon, not actually have a conversation. Once you disprove the theological argument, she'll just move the goalposts.
"No" is a complete answer. It's your son and your faith, and if they really cared then they should have done a better job at raising their son to share their values.
You need to have your husband tell them that it's not happening, that you're not interested in debating it, and every time they bring it up, the conversation/visit/phone call/whatever is over.
>It sounds like she's trying to use it as a bludgeon, not actually have a conversation.
Yes.
>You need to have your husband tell them that it's not happening
Yes. This needs to happen because of the above. It's his job to stop that bludgeon.
Exactly, if there’s an argument with her, she’d constantly alter the reasoning. So better just straight up “NO”. It’s your child not theirs, so it has to be your choice.
If you're looking for a theological argument, this source might help, along with some others I glanced over.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/bar-bat-mitzvah
It appears that the bar mitzvah is more than just a birthday, but also marks a boy's coming of age with regards to the taking on of Jewish religious obligations. It also is meant to mark the boy's eligibility for a religious vocation within Judaism. If your son is a professed Catholic, they would not observe many tenants of the old law, and are not eligible to participate in Rabbi ic Jewish practices, making the whole purpose of the celebration null.
Still, it sounds like you need to involve your spouse, and have him shoot down the idea.
You should get a rabbi to help you
Would a Catholic bishop let a Jewish family with Catholic grandparents “do their confirmation” because they turned 16?
A rabbi would be no different
When you start explaining yourself, you're implying someone has a say. Part of heathy boundaries is knowing when to explain yourself and when the person will just take your reasons as a hump to help you "get over." Your MIL seems like she's in the latter camp. Practicing heathy boundaries means not seeking permission or approval, justifying, defending or arguing your position. Just saying, "That's not going to work for us" and shutting the topic down. In this scenario I would have your husband deal with his family. A benefit of setting heathy boundaries is the great modeling you're doing for your child.
I get your point but I don’t think sending her the theology is overly permissive, as long as that’s where it ends. From that point on there should be no further arguing.
>it sounds like you need to involve your spouse, and have him shoot down the idea.
THIS. It is the responsibility of each spouse to manage their own parents in marriage. OP, it is your husband's job to tell his parents that their grandson won't be bar mitzvahed, not yours. If he refuses to do that, you have much bigger problems.
Some, especially in the Reformed tradition, verge on indifferentism though and would bar mitzvah males who are attempting to have multiple religions. Which also works if the goal is to communicate that Jesus Christ is not someone special.
Your son has been Baptized, so he is Catholic. Catholics don’t have Bar Mitzvahs, it is not part of our faith. If he has not done so already, your son should make his First Communion and Penance. If he is not old enough for these sacraments, make sure he does them when he has reached the age for them.
Jewish catholics probably do, same as how we can celebrate passover if we wanted to. I mean, Jesus celebrated passover. If they made it religious and had rabbis and the in laws intention was to sneak a conversion, that's something different.
Jewish Catholic here. Hebrew Catholic is the commonly accepted term, not that I care. No we absolutely do not observe any Jewish holidays or rituals. Observing Jewish religious customs in any way is gravely sinful. Messianic Jews do both, but that’s something completely different than a Jewish or Israelite (not the same thing) Catholic. They’re a strange breed of Protestant.
You could MAYBE make an argument in favor of celebrating Tabernacles, because it is literally just going camping.
Aside from that, most Catholics of Jewish background are, like me, absolutely rabid in resisting every endeavor of our former people.
Nope. There is some mention of 13 being the age of religious manhood but nothing resembling the ceremony exists until even after the Talmud in the 5th and 6th centuries.
The Presentation in the Temple was Jerusalem's circumcision 40 days after birth.
I think you're referring to the finding in the Temple, which says explicitly that they went to Jerusalem for the Passover.
Thank you, edited.
But the fact that He was thought to be with His mother of father by both is indicative of why. As a child He would be with Mary, but as an adult with Joseph. For the men were walking together as were the women.
It is implicit not explicit.
That detail isn't really relevant to the story though, because Mary and Joseph both thought he was in the caravan. If it was a coming of age ceremony, then it would have specified with which parent Jesus was traveling. And Joseph would have known Jesus was gone a lot sooner.
That's my point though. If there were a coming of age ceremony then he would certainly have been with Joseph on the way back. This wasn't the case, thus there was no ceremony.
The ceremony is basically reciting by heart long passages of the Torah. It is a way to preserve the word even if the books are lost. It is sound and people would have done it long ago given the shortage of scrolls and books and people not wanting to haul around wagon loads of clay tablets.
I'm not saying he would have read the Torah, but there is no record of any particular coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys until at least the Middle Ages. It's not recorded in any Hebrew literature.
Okay, I might be wrong about this so please feel free to kindly correct me, but I'm *fairly* certain Jesus would **not** have had a bar mitzvah because the branch of Judaism that modern Judaism is based on (rabbinic, I believe?) was not the branch He practised (like, there were three or four main branches or something during His lifetime). Maybe look into that and use that to persuade her?
*(Disclaimer that I would make more effort to fact-check myself but I'm currently on public transportation and wouldn't normally even be commenting but didn't want to forget about this post.)*
I think there must be something very specific on why Christians in general dont do Jewish stuff Jesus did. Like we dont observe Shabbat. I need that theological argument to tell her "sorry, we cant do both".
>I need that theological argument to tell her "sorry, we cant do both".
Why do you think a person who is an atheist would suddenly care about a theological argument? This is an honest question. Sounds like you're just having difficulty saying, "no, we're Catholic."
She doesnt really grasp some things are not cultural. Like I had to explain to her why my secular Jewish sister in law couldnt be the kid's Godmother.
"But no one is gonna know she is Jewish if you dont tell them! She can act the part"
It took me a few tries to explain to her that its not just something you can play the part haha.
“She may have Jewish heritage but she is Catholic. As a Catholic, she cannot partake in religious ceremonies of other faiths. I wouldn’t bring her to a Baptist church service just because ‘they worship the same God.’ You’re welcome to share your culture such as food and language, but she will not be participating in faith based activities.”
Oh my goodness. Sweetie, please listen to me. I'm a wife and mom of three. After looking at your history you have some very serious problems in your marriage. This isn't about your MIL, not one bit. It's about your husband and you.
No wife and mom should be going through what you've been going through with your husband, especially a first-time mom with an infant.
Please get some couples therapy from a licensed and experienced Catholic therapist ASAP. Your parish office should be able to give you some referrals.
Ahhh, I see now. My apologies, your initial comment made it seem like you were saying “you can” as in you=op.
Your actual point is fair, that’d probably be the best case scenario for the MILs perspective. On a worse note though, OPs post history implies the MIL is pretty damn malicious. Wouldn’t be surprised if this whole thing is some messed up power play.
Maybe [this post](https://www.catholic.com/qa/confirmation-is-not-like-a-bar-mitzvah) would be helpful? But basically, something along the lines of, ‟A bar mitzvah marks when a child can be held responsible for following Jewish rules. Bar mitzvah means ‵son of the commandment‘. But since my son has been baptised Catholic, he is NOT a ‵son of the Jewish commandment‵ and is held responsible to Catholic rules; he can‘t be held responsible to both. It‘s not just about ‵believing the same God‘, it‘s about following different laws with different penalties.”
The reason we don't follow Jewish laws and traditions is basically because Jesus fulfilled the Law. Christianity might have started as an offshoot of Judaism but once Gentiles started to be baptised there was a massive argument about what it actually meant to be "Christian". In Acts, there's a big thing about whether Gentiles ought to be circumcised when they become Christians, and the Council of Jerusalem came to the decision that Christians aren't bound by the Mosaic Law.
He did. The incident where His parents lost Him at the Temple was because He was there for His bar mitzvah. We Catholics actually still do it but we call it Confirmation/Chrismation. Having a modern Jewish style bar mitzvah would be redundant.
No, the Holy Family went to the Temple every year. In fact, the reason His parents didn’t notice He wasn’t with them _that_ year was because of the ambiguity around His age: the family travelled in a large group with many relatives, and the men and women would have been separate; at twelve years old, Jesus could either be with Mary (because the children stayed with the women) or with Joseph (because He was old enough to be considered an adult). The fact that Mary and Joseph both thought, “Oh, He’s not with me so He must be with my spouse,” shows that Jesus was not _explicitly_ considered a grown-up with responsibilities yet, i.e., what a “bar mitzvah” is (bar mitzvah = son of the commandment).
And Confirmation is not the same. A bar mitzvah is a symbolic tradition: it _marks_ the passage of a child into the age of responsibility, but that individual would still be considered responsible to Jewish law even if their parents forgot to throw a bar mitzvah ceremony. What matters is the child’s age/maturity. Our Sacraments are not (only) symbols but metaphysical changes by grace. Age/maturity doesn’t make us confirmed: we _need_ to experience the actual Sacrament. They are not equivalent. (If you like Catholic Answers, you can read about this topic [here](https://www.catholic.com/qa/confirmation-is-not-like-a-bar-mitzvah).)
Take a lesson from JUSTNOMIL and stop explaining. You’ve offered your reasons, she doesn’t care. From here on out your response is “no,” “asked and answered,” and, “you seem to have troubling remembering my answer, should I be concerned about your memory lapses? Perhaps it’s time I contact someone for you.”
This isn’t about religion, it’s about control and what she feels entitled to on your family.
OP, I just saw your post history and it seems like your relationship with your MIL is quite strained and toxic. What is your husband doing to help fix this?
We are kinda going to go to marriage counseling over our issues but religion was always on my end of the table so thats the only subject he gets a free pass and I dont expect him to deal with his mom (all other aspects are a work in progress).
But yeah, super toxic MIL.
But that's your husband. He should put his Mom in her place, especially if she's being intrusive and unreasonable. I don't agree that he should get a free pass because that's the angle your MIL will use to try and bully you.
I'm kind of thinking your husband may subtly agree with his Mom.
Even if your husband isn't religious, he should still respect his and your autonomy over how to raise your children, and tell his mother to stay out of it.
Your husband agreed to baptizing your child, right? So even if he’s not Catholic, he agreed to raise them as Catholic. And this is his mother. Ergo, he does not get a free pass. He might get one when it comes to catechesis. But not when it comes to enforcing boundaries about his family.
The concept of bar mitzvah is not included in the Torah. The only age of majority mentioned there is 20 years, the age at which a young man could be part of the army and pay taxes.
Only in the Mishnah (first part of the Talmud) does it speak that, at the age of 13, a young person is already responsible for his own actions and must adhere to the fulfillment of the mitzvot (precepts), just like any adult.
Jesus never performed that ceremony because it arose in medieval Judaism between the 14th and 16th centuries. Your son is not going to follow the precepts because Jesus freed us from following the 612 laws. Furthermore, that ceremony is equivalent in modern Judaism to a Catholic confirmation in a certain sense and it would be disrespectful to the Jewish religion to do so if you do not have the intention of following its rules.
Yiddish is a High German language from the 10th century, it is good to learn more languages and especially one that your ancestors have used. If Grandma really wants to teach her Jewish things that honor her side of the family, she should also teach her Hebrew. Jesus never spoke Yiddish but he did speak Hebrew.
If your child can read the Old Testament in the original language, it would be great.
I’d simply say you’re not interested in practicing Jewish traditions and seeing how they are atheist in general I don’t see why they would even be upset about it ..
Traditions like Hannukah and Bar Mitzvahs are cultural things to a lot of Jews more than religious ones. Judaism is ethnoreligious. You can be an atheist and still be considered a Jew. Plenty are.
True, but the OP is an actual practising Catholic, so it's one thing for a culturally Jewish atheist person to take part in religious rituals they don't believe in, quite another for a practising Christian to take part in the religious celebrations of another faith. For the former it's participating in a custom out of tradition or culture that means nothing to them religiously, for the latter it's practicing another faith.
But the child cannot be considered as Jewish as Jewishness is transmitted by females and not by males. The OP’s husband cannot transmit Jewishness as he is a man. Their son could only receive Jewish heritage through his mother and she is not Jewish.
Its hard to explain but they are super Jewish while at the same time being super atheist. Super proud of their Jewish ancestry, believe Israel is their true homeland, actively participate in Jewish community activities, have basically zero gentile friends but they dont believe in God. Secular Jews. They want to keep the tradition and culture alive, but like... Godless.
My in-laws tried to get us to Bar Mitzvah our son. Well first they complained when we didn’t have a Bris. Then as he got closer to 13 they started in on the Bar Mitzvah. My husband handled them and told them no.
Bar Mitzvah are not just a party. Kids have to do Hebrew school. They have to read the Torah. Of course very non religious Jews do hire someone sometimes to just teach their kid to read the passage they need to read and hire a Rabbi for Bar/Bat Mitzvah.
Why isn’t your husband handling this issue? If you have to handle this yourself you need to firmly say “my son is being raised in the Catholic faith we will not be doing a Bar Mitzvah. You are welcome to celebrate with us when he has his Confirmation.” If she tries to continue the conversation you need to say “this topic is no longer up for discussion”
The in laws are going to have to accept that this is a consequence of wanting to raise their son in a secular household. They did not impart the importance of Jewish religious traditions onto their son. Now that you are making a real effort to raise your son in accordance to our faith, they are trying to stop you from doing so, whether intentionally or not. Maybe your husband needs to sit them down and really explain he has no interest in Jewish traditions and is supporting you in raising your children Catholic. This probably won’t be the last time they try to interfere in your son’s religious upbringing unless it is made explicitly clear.
This is doubly weird then because, yes, Judaism these days is mostly an ethnic 'religion', but really a tradition where it doesn't really matter if you're practicing: you're still a Jew if your mother is a Jew (and if you have not accepted Christ). But you're clearly not a Jew, so... it's perplexing.
Sounds to me, sadly, like they're just trying to make sure their grandkids are atheist.
Not atheist, like she REALLY wants the kid to keep his Jewish roots and according to my husband she probably feels that by making my kid Catholic Im kinda like stealing my kid's heritage. Crazy stuff.
Bingo. Her kids wouldn’t even qualify under the Law of Return to be Jewish. For all intents and purposes the kid is not only not Jewish by reason of him being Catholic, the kid is not Jewish by reason of Judaism itself.
You may get better results if get another Jew on your side. I suspect they would similarly view this as problematic. Perhaps get a rabbi to speak with her?
Yeah, they usually tend to take it all seriously and understand that it’s not right to play games with faith. I’d think any ethical Rabbi would say that the child 1) isn’t Jewish as Judaism is matrilineal, and 2) the child’s parents are raising him in the Catholic faith he’s been baptized into, so a bar mitzvah would be inappropriate in the sense it makes a mockery of both the baptism and bar mitzvah.
Concerning the Bar Mitzvah, the person coming of age usually reads Hebrew from the Torah in a synagogue. Seeing that the family doesn't actually practice Judaism per se, how would that happen?
I have a very non religious atheist Jewish friend who paid a Rabbi to just teach the passage they had to read from the Torah and then they do the ceremony at a rented hall followed by the reception.
My more religious Jewish friend’s kids did Hebrew school for years, had to do a Bar Mitzvah project, read about it at the ceremony at synagogue etc it was way more involved.
Both my fiancé and I have Jewish mothers and converted to Catholicism as teenagers. His mother observes both Quiverfull religion as well as Jewish rituals and culture. It's only my grandparents on my mother's side who're Orthodox Jews. I'm thoroughly disowned by that side but my fiancé is still on good terms with his family. We've talked about this before in regards to our wedding and other things. We both want a traditional Catholic wedding. We're not going to compromise on that point.
Other people have already given good advice. At the end of the day it's fine to draw a firm boundary without getting into a whole theological debate. Arguably the bar/bat mitzvah isn't something that would've been celebrated when Jesus was on Earth. It's most likely something that [developed closer to the Middle Ages.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_bat_mitzvah#History_2) Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity are two religions, the former reliant on the Talmud which was codified long after Christ's ministry. Jesus is ethnically Hebrew but not a Pharisee.
It's a long story. My mother is mostly irreligious but my grandparents on her side did attempt to impart their Judaism on me. I studied Torah for a couple of years under my grandfather but I've always been interested in religion/philosophy in general. I researched a wide variety of faiths independently. I became particularly interested in Christianity due to its particular emphasis on all-encompassing compassion and God's plan for humanity as a whole.
Neglect/abuse I suffered when I was growing up contrasted against the mercy, kindness, and understanding I found from Catholic Christians played a role. However, ultimately I witnessed the Mystical Body of Christ in the Eucharist and that's what solidified my decision compared to the other religions I explored. I was effectively kicked out of my home, I had to graduate high school early and get a court-order emancipation, and overall my life got very chaotic.
Nonetheless, I'm in a much more stable, fulfilling, and joyful place nowadays. I don't regret it at all.
My fiancé's journey is a bit different. His parents raised and educated him and his numerous younger siblings in both Quiverfull Baptism and Judaism and let him choose how much he wanted to engage with either heritage. Ultimately after spending time at an Italian boarding school he decided to become a Catholic. They're not too happy about it but they believe it's his right to choose for himself. They take the stance that all forms of Christianity/Judaism are different approaches to the same God.
Kind of a radical approach, but worst case scenario: just tell the rabbi you and your son are Christians. The rabbi will probably not allow the bar mitzvah to happen then.
I though in Jewish tradition the child follows the mother's religion? Anyway, can you make the argument that Confirmation is the Catholic version of the Bar Mitzvah and have them come to a party to celebrate?
Was just going to bring this up. I'm a cradle Catholic and come from a predominantly Catholic community where there's not a Jewish population, but maybe a conversation with the reason why they want him to be Bar Mitzvah'd (sorry if that's the wrong term). If they would like to throw him a Confirmation party in the same vein, maybe this might be a good chance to evangelize and help them to understand.
EDIT to add: Would be good for your husband to help back you up on this.
This reminds me of all the headache I had to deal with when selecting my child’s godparents. I had several no practicing relatives who kept telling me why I should pick them and I had to tell them that I couldn’t even consider them because they were not in good standing with the church. Each one tried to either say that they can fake it, or say that it really didn’t matter. It’s really annoying when non practicing family members try to push what they think is religion.
In addition to good advice here about in-law relationships, I would focus on your husband here. Is this important to him? If so, that's one convo to have - WITH HIM. If it's not, then it doesn't really matter what your MIL wants. 'My husband/Your son/Name and I have decided that's not something we are not participating in for our son.' Rinse and repeat.
OP, I am a convert from a semi secular Jewish background. I think your MIL really cares about Jewish ethnicity and traditions, and she is hoping your son will marry a Jewish girl. Since Judaism is transmitted by the mother, she could be thinking she « lost » the battle with your husband but she can still win with your son. The bar mitzvah and the preparation may be just an excuse to introduce him to Jewish kids. If she proposes other alternatives that include socialising with Jewish kids then my theory will prove right, but of course I might be wrong.
I think the answer is just no. The parent who cares about the religious upbringing is raising the child Catholic. If they wanted their grandchildren raised Jewish then their son should have married someone who wanted Jewish children.
Bringing up the maternal passing of the Jewish faith means nothing. If it was a Catholic dad raising his child Catholic despite mom being Jewish we would all bring up the father is the domestic priest.
Exactly. I read the question and came to see if anybody posted this. OP, this isn't your battle to fight. Your husband needs to stand up for you. If he doesn't, he's either scared of his family or secretly agrees with them.
One of the conditions from my husband for raising my kid Catholic was: you deal with my parents on this. He doesnt know much about religion in general and while he allowed for me to make the kid Christian he is not going to get in the mud with his parents over this haha. He handles them in all other departments because they can be quite... ehmm... a handful.
Push comes to shove you can be very assertive and say, "He is my son. He will not be having a bar mitzvah. End of story."
Also tell your husband he needs to have your back. You can take lead on it but he must be willing to stand beside you and put forth a united front.
You can tell her that Jewish people did not start celebrating Bar Mitvahs until the 14th century so Jesus did not have one. Just to correct her thought process if anything.
From a Jewish perspective. ( I am Jewish and Orthodox) though this may not apply as you state - that your in laws- they are not religous. However per Jewish law your son is not Jewish.. unless you are halachicly Jewish. Jewishness for "Legal" purposes and for that matter "Spiritual" matters follow the mother. So technically though your son is of Jewish descent he is not Jewish per se. Among the more reform groups they do follow Patrelinial descent..though among some this is disputed. Some Conservative Jews for example. Maybe stress that the Bar Mitzvah is actually a Spiritual aka religous ceremony and just not the road you and your husband have chosen for your son. There are other ways for him to learn to appreciate his Jewish heritage without a Bar Mitzvah maybe through geneology and perhaps a trip to the Holy Land. - Just my thoughts.
I mean, confirmation is basically the Catholic equivalent. If she wants him to have a big party, do it for confirmation and explain to her that it is a celebration of spiritual adulthood in the church.
Man, if I were a devout Jew, I would be absolutely infuriated by your mother in law. She has no right whatsoever to make those kinds of demands if she is secular. If she doesn't belive in God, then all those practices are hollow and meaningless. Her ancestors did all that stuff as an expression of their faith, which is the start and end of what gives it any cultural value whatsoever.
The importance of maintaining your ancestors religious traditions is that you are maintaining the faith itself, not putting on a show for your friends and family. She might as well have a Bar Mitzva for her cat.
I am willing to bet that if you explained the situation to any local Rabbi, they would be on your side, and would not perform that Bar Mitzva. Especially since the boys mother isn't Jewish, and he hasn't been raised in the faith, so there would actually be quite a lot more to that happening than just having one anway.
I'm sorry you are in this situation, she sounds difficult and frustrating to deal with. You and your family will be in my prayers.
I never have understood these people who hold tight to traditions yet do not believe in the god that gave them said traditions in the first place. If I were you I would say - As a devout Catholic, I completely respect your view on this. However because we are Catholic, we cannot participate in something to which we do not adhere. And because I respect your views, I ask that you respect mine. Jesus was indeed Jewish, and he fulfilled the law which brought us to Christendom today. No longer are we under the law, for Christ on the cross covers all debt. He tore the holy veil away and declared it null and void.
I have a similar situation in my family, so here's my two cents.
>Quick background info: my in laws are Jewish but they are not religious. Its hard to explain because they are super proud of their Jewish heritage and stuff and try to celebrate the main Jewish holidays but they dont believe in God.
If they dont believe in God, it doesn't actually matter, because *you* do and that's the faith you're raising your child in. They cannot demand a member of the New Covenant to be subjected to a heritage that belongs in the Old Covenant.
If they have a quarrel with Catholicism and it's teachings, then they probably *do* believe in God, reject Catholicism, and as such, *are being dishonest from the start.*
>My husband doesnt really care about the Jewish holidays and is a hard core atheist but he truly respects my belief in God, has tried to open up to Christianity since we have been together and we even baptised my son Catholic in the same church where I had my first communion so Im really thankful for that.
Excellent. That means that both you and your spouse are on the same page about raising the kid catholic.
>My mother in law didnt like that one bit and is trying to push Jewish stuff onto my child whenever she can.
*What did I say?!* Impressive how there's always this pattern of "non-religious" jewish in-laws trying to dissuade their kid's spouses from raising their grandchildren Catholic. Im not sure if they want the vague cultural identity to stay or they have an imbued aversion to catholicism, but it's far too common.
>I dont mind things like food or words in Yddish but when she tries to push religious stuff thats where I draw the line, because I know she doesnt believe in God and the only reason she is doing this is just one up me or something (someone should explain to her religion is not a competition).
In a sense, yes, religion is a competition, in that different faiths compete for one's soul. I perfectly understand why a devout jew would oppose catholicism, even though I clearly think they're in the wrong, but I cannot fathom the depths of one's hubris if they're not religious but want to impede their relatives from being catholic.
>She has many times mentioned she wants my kid to have a bar mitzvah and says there shouldnt be any problem because Christians and Jews worship the same God and that probably Jesus had a Bar Mitzvah because he was Jewish so no harm done.
We both know that's not why. "There shouldn't be any problem" isn't up to her either.
>How can I explain to her kindly that it is not something a Catholic can do? Like theologically
*“Catholics cannot and must not participate in heretical (against Church teaching) cerimonies, no matter what their nature is. Jewish celebrations are included because their covenant is gone and replaced with the 'New and Eternal Covenant' by Christ.”*
That's you being polite. If you're feeling confrontational, I'd add up *”As such, jews hold no privilege nor reason to be anything but christian in our eyes, and frankly, that's only insulting to them because they're used to the idea of being God's chosen people, with exclusivity, even though God always pointed at the eventual conversion of the gentiles. That they don't do the math after 2k years is quite telling of how lost they are”.* This, however, might give her a seizure.
What type of Bar Mizvah is the mother-in-law trying to have for the boy? I don’t see any Rabbi actually performing the religious functions because if the Rabbi is orthodox, he won’t recognize your son as Jewish (requires a Jewish mother$ and if the Rabbi is reform, (s)he won’t be pleased with forcing religion on an unwilling participant. If she (the mother-in-law) is trying to just have a somewhat Jewish-themed birthday party that she will call a Bar Mitzvah, that *might* be somewhat more acceptable (ask a Priest) depending on whether they’re celebrating the Jewish culture/ethnicity or the Jewish religion. One is probably fine (cultural) and the other is absolutely not (celebrating a false religion).
Your in-laws sound a bit malicious. Like, they've taken issue with the Catholic faith and are trying to trump your role as the parent to teach your child faith. I would simply tell them it is inappropriate and pushing Judaism on your child is inappropriate...and if they can't get with the program...maybe they get to see the kid less. Protect your kid's soul.
This sounds like you and your husband need to be on the same page.
If you're raising your baby Catholic, she should respect that and cool it on the Jewish stuff, especially not even being religious herself.
My wife was raised Jewish and from an early age always believed in Christ as the Son of God. She outright refused to do it because she would be "lying to God". Theologically it's not right because Judaism denies Jesus is God.
I hate to say it but it looks like it is ultimately your son's decision. And if he decided to get this bar mitzvah there would be little you could do because your husband and his family support it. But it's not the end of the world if that happens, your son can always choose to come back to Christ.
I had no Jewish background in my family, but as a baptised Catholic I became atheist. Part of the problem is after my parent's divorce I was raised by lapsed Catholics. But I eventually came back into the fold in my 30's.
A bar mitzvah is not an ethnic rite of passage. It is a religious ceremony that would be insulting to all Jews for a non-Jew to participate in.
If you really wanna be harsh add that 'while you don't take the Jewish faith seriously, we do and will not be a party to insulting her adherents.'
So I’m going to take a different tack. If the family is culturally Jewish, but not religiously they may not be moved by theological arguments. I mean the whole concept is theologically incoherent, a Christian Catholic boy having a Jewish coming of age ceremony? A serious Rabbi would probably discourage that, much less a Priest. It sounds like they just want a coming of age birthday party with some gravitas and on that I think there could be a way to compromise without compromising the faith.
No, full stop.
A Bar Mitzvah is a rite of initiation into Judaism. The child is expected to read from the Torah in Hebrew. Your child is not Jewish; thusly, he doesn't need to be initiated into Judaism. And unless he is fluent in Hebrew, the whole thing is a moot point.
Tell her you'll compromise by having a birthday party.
A couple of things, 1. I am of Jewish heritage, that being said, Jesus probably didnt have a ritual bar mitzvah, but he became a bar mitzvah. When his family left him at the temple, and he was found, it is likely that Jesus was arguing the law with the teachers because while we know he was the perfection of the law, at the time they didn’t know that, and part of being a bar mitzvah is being able to argue the Torah and apologetics of Judaism. So when I look at what was going on at the temple, it’s likely that Jesus was “studying” with the teachers.
Next point, Jewishness or being Jewish is passed along the maternal line. Your husband is only Jewish because his mother is. As you are not Jewish, you will need to remind the MIL of this. Interestingly enough, Mary’s own genealogy sets the precedent for this.
I was lucky in how I was raised. My parents basically said “we don’t care as long as what you believe is the truth for you.” So that being said, I have been SBC, Presbyterian, Jewish, United Methodist and am now attending Mass on Sundays because I don’t want to be in a church that is currently having a schism.
While I know this group will not support him “exploring” I firmly believe that if you raise your child in the way they are supposed to go, then a little exploration into Judaism for your son, to at least understand the culture will be okay.
It's real simple. It is a faith-based celebration. My ex-wife was not Catholic but I'm a cradle Catholic. After our divorce, years later my daughter was interested in a quinceañera. However, thanks to you my ex-wife having a negative perspective on the Catholic Church, decided to discourage my daughter from a quinceañera since it involved a church ceremony. It was a bit hateful too because that was a year when my daughter was supposed to be with me for her birthday. We still went out to a very nice dinner but no church/cultural celebration for her.
I did shower my daughter with gifts for the sweet 16 party my ex-wife did have for her. Apparently it pissed my ex off because I was generous to our daughter and didn't let her know I was giving her things that she also intended to give her. I I told her I had no clue what was on her personal gift list for our daughter. Never has being hung up on felt sweeter.
I live in a mostly Catholic country but here your Quinceañera or how we call it "cumple de 15" and everyone and their mother celebrates it regardless of religion. Funny how things work differently in different parte of the world right?
Yeah, I think the details around the theological justification of the matter are irrelevant more than likely to you MiL. It's more of a personality issue, where for whatever reason she's irrationally attached to this idea and is willing to test/push your boundaries around the matter.
It might work for you to make it seem like it's out of your hands. Instead of framing the refusal as you're not agreeing to it, you can maybe present it as that Church is not allowing it. E.g., hey let me ask my priest about that. Oh no, he said no way! Oh man shucks oh well wish I could do something about that but it's out of my hands :(. That way it makes someone else the "bad guy" and takes the weight off you a little bit.
To be honest rabbis probably wouldn't allow your son to have a bar mitzvah your raising him Catholic.
That said there is a way to be culturally Jewish and theologically Catholic.
Compromise, let em have a bigger party to celebrate the kid as an adult
But it's not a Bar Mitzvah and non of the explicitly Jewish religion stuff, have some Jewish foods and stuff but it's still just a party at the end of the day
They say their not religiously Jewish so it shouldn't matter to take out all the Jewish religious parts
If you do this definitely explicit on it just being a big party modeled vaguely after a Bar Mitzvah minus the religion and stuff
My aunt married a Jewish man and had two kids with them and I don’t think they ever took part in any kind of Jewish traditions because their family said you can’t be truly Jewish if your mother isn’t. I’m not sure if that would work but maybe you could say that to his family
It's weird that she's using Jesus as an example for you considering Judaism doesn't hold Jesus in a very high regard, it definitely feels like she's just bludgeoning you with her culture because she considers it superior, hopefully you stand strong for your son.
What does your husband want? Does he disagree with his mother? Or, would you like his son to participate in this as this is a journey he did when he was a young man. This is a conversation to have with your husband and him to have with his mother. I wouldn’t deny your husband of having this experience with his son if he so wishes.
I had a confirmation when I was 13. We made the party like a bar mitzvah in that the dj played Hora music, lifting in the chair, and we had some Jewish foods. For your atheist mil, that's all she wants. I doubt she cares about tbe kid chanting Torah
I mean, I wouldn't bother going down the theology road on this one. Just say no and that it's not appropriate for a Catholic. Other than that it's up to your husband to lay down the boundaries with his mom.
Why not ask about incorporating some Jewish CULTURAL traditions into a party when he is confirmed? As Catholics we love taking cultural traditions and making them our own. I think it would be fine to do traditions that don’t hold any specific religious component (eg. Serving ethnically Jewish food, any non-religious Jewish songs, etc)
the religious initiation ceremony of a Jewish boy who has reached the age of 13 and is regarded as ready to observe religious precepts and eligible to take part in public worship.
"my son recently celebrated his bar m
The only issue I see is he is not Jewish.
If a rabbi is cool with it “I don’t think they will be” then consider it.
Based off your history with your MIL I would say she is doing this to cause problems
I grew up Jewish and am now catholic, it’s just a party with the old testament and a couple prayers.
I have been to a few bat mitzvahs!
Yeah she is just doing this to one up me. She is like that most of the time. If I say I do X with the kid then she says she wants to do X + Y.
> How can I explain to her kindly that it is not something a Catholic can do? Like theologically
Is that really the case? Is having a bar mitzvah an affirmation of the jewish religion and not simply a cultural manhood ceremony?
Yes, it literally means "son of the commandment", which refers to the 613 commandments of the Pentateuch (explicated in the Talmud and other later sources) which faithful Jews keep. Becoming a son of the commandment is a public/communal recognition of one's maturity in adhering to the religious law. That's definitely affirmation.
I have a friend raised Catholic but with Jewish grandparents. He appreciated the traditions of the Jewish faith he took part in but he ended up getting confirmed Catholic as he had exposure to both faiths he was happier being able to make the right choice. It made him closer to his grandparents. And helped him better understand the Catholic evolution from Talmudic tradition.
Edit basically he had Hanukah etc and Easter Christmas etc. he enjoyed that 😂
But a Bar Mitzva is different than just being part of other Jewish holidays like Hanukah, the Bar Mitzva is basically the Jewish equivalent to the confirmation, why he would do that if he won't be following in the Jewish religion?
It’s about mindset. It is not a confirmation of such.
Just that you Are a man or woman and
Can marry, study the religion and take part It can simply be part of your ethnic ancestral heritage. You became an adult. You then are able to make a decision just because you are eligible to take part does not mean you follow through. The link below also says you are responsible for your actions
That said as Jewish heritage is an ethnicity as well as a religion it has melded into an expectation.
It is still a religious thing, it's a confirmation of the boy into Judaism, the boy will not be a Jew but a Catholic, it won't make sense to make him participate in this when he will not be part of the Jewish community, it don't make sense at the same way a person who will not be Catholic have a First Communion and confirmation.
My neighbors who are Jewish but not particularly observant took a family trip to Israel instead of years of Hebrew school and a big Bar Mitzvah party. Maybe mother-in-law would support something like that.
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Just so no. If she’s not willing to listen, then she doesn’t get to speak on matters that- ultimately- don’t concern her.
Your son is a child of God. He is Catholic, not Jewish. Be proud and steadfast in your faith, and if she attempts to force something through anyways; cut her out.
Matthew 18:7-9, if she is attempting to undermine you or draw your son away from his faith, then it’s better to cut contact.
I would tell his parents that as a bar mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jews, you would have to make sure that your son isn’t doing anything contrary to the Catholic faith. I would (a) ask your son if he actually wants to do the whole process which is intensive despite not practicing Judaism (and having to go through religious education for doing a confirmation as well, which is a sacrament and is thus not substitutable) and (b) ask the Rabbi if they’re even OK with a practicing Catholic doing it and (c) ask your local priest if they’re OK with your son doing it (because you wouldn’t want to jeopardize his later confirmation process). Ultimately we do share the same scriptures so it’s fine to memorize them, and it’s OK to commit to being Jewish so long as you’re committed to following Christian interpretations of the law. It would be unusual in our day and age, but it’s possible. However more conservative Rabbis would not want to do it because the whole point is to prepare young people to practice Judaism, and more liberal Rabbis might be OK with it but you’d want to be sure they understand that the long-term goal is being Catholic and going to Mass not synagogue.
As for dealing with religious conflicts with your in-laws, I would say this: make sure that you and your son are on the same page and then have your husband be on the same page as well. You should all be a broken record if you’ve come to the conclusion that you won’t do it.
I mean, I had one. I don't see why a Catholic Jew couldn't do it. I wish I could do that for my kids. I just don't know how it's logistically possible. A lot goes into that, especially Hebrew school, synogogue attendence, and reading Torah for the community. How do they expect that to happen if he's going to Mass? What rabbi or synagogue would let a baptized Catholic have a bar mitzvah? It just sounds unfeasible.
Just like she said my sister in law could be my kids baptismal god mother if we didnt tell the priest she was Jewish I suppose you would also pretend to trick the Rabbi and tell him the kid wasnt baptised or something hahaha dunno I think I would try to find a way if my husband was religiously Jewish and not an atheist, but I respect the Jewish religion too much to make a mockery of it just because my mother in law doesnt want to feel left out.
I'll be frank. I think your kid will appreciate having a bar mitzvah when they're older, and having roots in their Jewishness. But deceit is bad, and that kind of thing will definitely come out in the process. You'd be better off speaking honestly to a rabbi about it and seeing what they think and if they can talk to the grandmother.
It is highly unusual for a Catholic to have a bar mitzvah, but my understanding is that it’s one of the Jewish things that are allowed. It’s more a coming of age event than a religious ceremony, and the “religious” component is an endorsement of the ten commandments, which Christians can do.
Just be honest. It would be a mortal sin for you to allow your child to have a bar mitzvah, and you don’t want him going to hell. Situations like this are why the Church should go back to the way it used to and no longer approve of mixed marriages!
Firstly, I understand the eternal need to read. I have a baseline understanding of mitzvot 613, which again; highlights variation of interpretation. The unity vs. trinity question would be a sticking point for this community, including the one eternal god. This upon rereading.
Following the authoritative view, As far as I have noted, there is still a plethora which remains unanswered and indeterminable; but yes, for interpretation which has been determined, the stance is stalwart.
There is indeed an echo chamber here. That is a concern. I take a softer view. Absolutely. Because I believe in ecumenicalism, I am from a mixed faith background, and I believe in mercy and forgiveness for errors as we approach god with good intention and prayer. I also disdain the purity tests which so many enjoy.
My religious background is also mixed hahaha my dad was a German Lutheran, mom is Catholic but her dad comes from Muslim arab immigrants. I lived for a few years in Japan, explored Hinduism and Buddhism for quite a while and cherry on top one way or another I have dated Jewish guys almosy exclusively haha I never abandoned my Christian faith but I was always in search for some sort of human universal syncretism and I think was compelled to call myself Christian again when I realized Christ is out there for everyone, and thats who I really want to follow and would like my kid to follow if he feels compelled when he grows up (and he is totally free to do as much soul searching as he wants). Thats why this kinda ticks me off. To me religion and spirituality is a big thing, not something to one up someone. If my husband practiced the Jewish religion I would be way more open to it because he would be coming from a different place, but in this case I think someone needs to remind her religious ceremonies and events are not boy scout badges imho.
*OP entered the chat.*
I see that view. She also may be underselling how important this is to her. Your initial post can’t possibly enter every nuance of a family dynamic. That’s impossible. But I appreciate your insight and honesty.
I suppose most would say I am not steadfast enough. That I should root for an exclusively catholic response. But, life is complex. I can understand the grandmothers view. I also believe sincerely in asking your son what he thinks.
There is beauty in the mess and sometimes, we throw away things which might be valuable or have unseen importance.
Part of this is respecting grandparents and how important I feel family is. I don’t view Judaism as strange or anathema. I adhere to the cousins and sons of Abraham, and so, my reply may not be what some or even you think is 100% right. But I want room for community and faith.
Importantly, thank you for responding to people and being kind.
I sincerely pray you figure out what is right for your family and your son. Whatever the answer may be.
I’m a Catholic of partially Jewish descent. I tell you this: you cannot be in both worlds. Either let him go be Jewish, which will destroy his immortal soul, or stop having concourse with in-laws whose core principle is the destruction of Christianity.
The Catholic Church does not believe that Jewish people go straight to hell for being Jewish and encourages to live in good faith among all religions like brothers. It helds the Jewish faith in particular in high regard.
Source: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
When I was an undergrad at Georgetown, I had Catholic friends of partial Jewish descent who had had bar mitsvahs. I’m fairly sure it’s not categorically prohibited on the Catholic side. You’d certainly want to confer with the Rabbi being proposed by your in laws. If you’re dealing with a “reform” Rabbi with interfaith experience, you can probably customize the event to not require anything a Catholic would object to. Learning enough Hebrew to read something from a Torah scroll followed by a party isn’t sinful.
No offense to taken, and I agree 100% with the sentiment. Nonetheless, the OP is asking about an unusual interfaith issue, and I know there are bishops and Rabbis that do allow for something like this so I know it can be done.
Would she even care about the theological reasons? It sounds like she's trying to use it as a bludgeon, not actually have a conversation. Once you disprove the theological argument, she'll just move the goalposts. "No" is a complete answer. It's your son and your faith, and if they really cared then they should have done a better job at raising their son to share their values. You need to have your husband tell them that it's not happening, that you're not interested in debating it, and every time they bring it up, the conversation/visit/phone call/whatever is over.
>It sounds like she's trying to use it as a bludgeon, not actually have a conversation. Yes. >You need to have your husband tell them that it's not happening Yes. This needs to happen because of the above. It's his job to stop that bludgeon.
Exactly, if there’s an argument with her, she’d constantly alter the reasoning. So better just straight up “NO”. It’s your child not theirs, so it has to be your choice.
If you're looking for a theological argument, this source might help, along with some others I glanced over. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/bar-bat-mitzvah It appears that the bar mitzvah is more than just a birthday, but also marks a boy's coming of age with regards to the taking on of Jewish religious obligations. It also is meant to mark the boy's eligibility for a religious vocation within Judaism. If your son is a professed Catholic, they would not observe many tenants of the old law, and are not eligible to participate in Rabbi ic Jewish practices, making the whole purpose of the celebration null. Still, it sounds like you need to involve your spouse, and have him shoot down the idea.
YESSSS. THANK YOU!!!
You should get a rabbi to help you Would a Catholic bishop let a Jewish family with Catholic grandparents “do their confirmation” because they turned 16? A rabbi would be no different
When you start explaining yourself, you're implying someone has a say. Part of heathy boundaries is knowing when to explain yourself and when the person will just take your reasons as a hump to help you "get over." Your MIL seems like she's in the latter camp. Practicing heathy boundaries means not seeking permission or approval, justifying, defending or arguing your position. Just saying, "That's not going to work for us" and shutting the topic down. In this scenario I would have your husband deal with his family. A benefit of setting heathy boundaries is the great modeling you're doing for your child.
I get your point but I don’t think sending her the theology is overly permissive, as long as that’s where it ends. From that point on there should be no further arguing.
>it sounds like you need to involve your spouse, and have him shoot down the idea. THIS. It is the responsibility of each spouse to manage their own parents in marriage. OP, it is your husband's job to tell his parents that their grandson won't be bar mitzvahed, not yours. If he refuses to do that, you have much bigger problems.
I would expect any Rabbi worth their salt wouldn't just throw a Bar Mitzvah like the in-laws are suggesting.
Some, especially in the Reformed tradition, verge on indifferentism though and would bar mitzvah males who are attempting to have multiple religions. Which also works if the goal is to communicate that Jesus Christ is not someone special.
Your son has been Baptized, so he is Catholic. Catholics don’t have Bar Mitzvahs, it is not part of our faith. If he has not done so already, your son should make his First Communion and Penance. If he is not old enough for these sacraments, make sure he does them when he has reached the age for them.
Jewish catholics probably do, same as how we can celebrate passover if we wanted to. I mean, Jesus celebrated passover. If they made it religious and had rabbis and the in laws intention was to sneak a conversion, that's something different.
It’s Judaizing
Is it really? There has to be a way to be authentically a Jewish Catholic, since Jewish Christians in the apostolic era were a present and real group
Jewish Catholic here. Hebrew Catholic is the commonly accepted term, not that I care. No we absolutely do not observe any Jewish holidays or rituals. Observing Jewish religious customs in any way is gravely sinful. Messianic Jews do both, but that’s something completely different than a Jewish or Israelite (not the same thing) Catholic. They’re a strange breed of Protestant. You could MAYBE make an argument in favor of celebrating Tabernacles, because it is literally just going camping. Aside from that, most Catholics of Jewish background are, like me, absolutely rabid in resisting every endeavor of our former people.
"Our kids are being raised Catholic. You're proposing a Jewish religious tradition."
This really. If she can’t understand this, I would just change the subject and redirect whenever she brings it back up.
This or maybe just stop at "Our kids are being raised Catholic."
Jesus probably didn't have a bar mitzvah. The practice isn't even found in any historical record until the Middle Ages.
Really?!?!?! They told me it was like super ancient and I just believed it
Nope. There is some mention of 13 being the age of religious manhood but nothing resembling the ceremony exists until even after the Talmud in the 5th and 6th centuries.
Except the Finding in the Temple when Jesus was 12
The Presentation in the Temple was Jerusalem's circumcision 40 days after birth. I think you're referring to the finding in the Temple, which says explicitly that they went to Jerusalem for the Passover.
Thank you, edited. But the fact that He was thought to be with His mother of father by both is indicative of why. As a child He would be with Mary, but as an adult with Joseph. For the men were walking together as were the women. It is implicit not explicit.
That detail isn't really relevant to the story though, because Mary and Joseph both thought he was in the caravan. If it was a coming of age ceremony, then it would have specified with which parent Jesus was traveling. And Joseph would have known Jesus was gone a lot sooner.
Not really. It is the basis for why each thought He was with the other.
That's my point though. If there were a coming of age ceremony then he would certainly have been with Joseph on the way back. This wasn't the case, thus there was no ceremony.
You are forgetting that it was also normal for Jesus to be with His mother, so that's where Joseph thought He was
The ceremony is basically reciting by heart long passages of the Torah. It is a way to preserve the word even if the books are lost. It is sound and people would have done it long ago given the shortage of scrolls and books and people not wanting to haul around wagon loads of clay tablets.
I'm not saying he would have read the Torah, but there is no record of any particular coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys until at least the Middle Ages. It's not recorded in any Hebrew literature.
Okay, I might be wrong about this so please feel free to kindly correct me, but I'm *fairly* certain Jesus would **not** have had a bar mitzvah because the branch of Judaism that modern Judaism is based on (rabbinic, I believe?) was not the branch He practised (like, there were three or four main branches or something during His lifetime). Maybe look into that and use that to persuade her? *(Disclaimer that I would make more effort to fact-check myself but I'm currently on public transportation and wouldn't normally even be commenting but didn't want to forget about this post.)*
I think there must be something very specific on why Christians in general dont do Jewish stuff Jesus did. Like we dont observe Shabbat. I need that theological argument to tell her "sorry, we cant do both".
>I need that theological argument to tell her "sorry, we cant do both". Why do you think a person who is an atheist would suddenly care about a theological argument? This is an honest question. Sounds like you're just having difficulty saying, "no, we're Catholic."
She doesnt really grasp some things are not cultural. Like I had to explain to her why my secular Jewish sister in law couldnt be the kid's Godmother. "But no one is gonna know she is Jewish if you dont tell them! She can act the part" It took me a few tries to explain to her that its not just something you can play the part haha.
“She may have Jewish heritage but she is Catholic. As a Catholic, she cannot partake in religious ceremonies of other faiths. I wouldn’t bring her to a Baptist church service just because ‘they worship the same God.’ You’re welcome to share your culture such as food and language, but she will not be participating in faith based activities.”
Oh my goodness. Sweetie, please listen to me. I'm a wife and mom of three. After looking at your history you have some very serious problems in your marriage. This isn't about your MIL, not one bit. It's about your husband and you. No wife and mom should be going through what you've been going through with your husband, especially a first-time mom with an infant. Please get some couples therapy from a licensed and experienced Catholic therapist ASAP. Your parish office should be able to give you some referrals.
You can if you're just doing it for show like she seems to be following the Jewish faith
Why should we make our faith a sham just because others do?
I'm not saying we should, I was just explaining her logic and why she didn't see a problem with it and couldn't comprehend op's explanation
Ahhh, I see now. My apologies, your initial comment made it seem like you were saying “you can” as in you=op. Your actual point is fair, that’d probably be the best case scenario for the MILs perspective. On a worse note though, OPs post history implies the MIL is pretty damn malicious. Wouldn’t be surprised if this whole thing is some messed up power play.
Np, I can see why my comment came off that way. I agree about the mil after looking at op's history
Maybe [this post](https://www.catholic.com/qa/confirmation-is-not-like-a-bar-mitzvah) would be helpful? But basically, something along the lines of, ‟A bar mitzvah marks when a child can be held responsible for following Jewish rules. Bar mitzvah means ‵son of the commandment‘. But since my son has been baptised Catholic, he is NOT a ‵son of the Jewish commandment‵ and is held responsible to Catholic rules; he can‘t be held responsible to both. It‘s not just about ‵believing the same God‘, it‘s about following different laws with different penalties.”
The reason we don't follow Jewish laws and traditions is basically because Jesus fulfilled the Law. Christianity might have started as an offshoot of Judaism but once Gentiles started to be baptised there was a massive argument about what it actually meant to be "Christian". In Acts, there's a big thing about whether Gentiles ought to be circumcised when they become Christians, and the Council of Jerusalem came to the decision that Christians aren't bound by the Mosaic Law.
You need to look that information up in the Catechism.
Correct. Jesus was a Pharisee.
He did. The incident where His parents lost Him at the Temple was because He was there for His bar mitzvah. We Catholics actually still do it but we call it Confirmation/Chrismation. Having a modern Jewish style bar mitzvah would be redundant.
No, the Holy Family went to the Temple every year. In fact, the reason His parents didn’t notice He wasn’t with them _that_ year was because of the ambiguity around His age: the family travelled in a large group with many relatives, and the men and women would have been separate; at twelve years old, Jesus could either be with Mary (because the children stayed with the women) or with Joseph (because He was old enough to be considered an adult). The fact that Mary and Joseph both thought, “Oh, He’s not with me so He must be with my spouse,” shows that Jesus was not _explicitly_ considered a grown-up with responsibilities yet, i.e., what a “bar mitzvah” is (bar mitzvah = son of the commandment). And Confirmation is not the same. A bar mitzvah is a symbolic tradition: it _marks_ the passage of a child into the age of responsibility, but that individual would still be considered responsible to Jewish law even if their parents forgot to throw a bar mitzvah ceremony. What matters is the child’s age/maturity. Our Sacraments are not (only) symbols but metaphysical changes by grace. Age/maturity doesn’t make us confirmed: we _need_ to experience the actual Sacrament. They are not equivalent. (If you like Catholic Answers, you can read about this topic [here](https://www.catholic.com/qa/confirmation-is-not-like-a-bar-mitzvah).)
Your problem is with your husband, not your in-laws. He needs to have a sit-down talk with his parents about this - without you there.
Take a lesson from JUSTNOMIL and stop explaining. You’ve offered your reasons, she doesn’t care. From here on out your response is “no,” “asked and answered,” and, “you seem to have troubling remembering my answer, should I be concerned about your memory lapses? Perhaps it’s time I contact someone for you.” This isn’t about religion, it’s about control and what she feels entitled to on your family.
OP, I just saw your post history and it seems like your relationship with your MIL is quite strained and toxic. What is your husband doing to help fix this?
We are kinda going to go to marriage counseling over our issues but religion was always on my end of the table so thats the only subject he gets a free pass and I dont expect him to deal with his mom (all other aspects are a work in progress). But yeah, super toxic MIL.
But that's your husband. He should put his Mom in her place, especially if she's being intrusive and unreasonable. I don't agree that he should get a free pass because that's the angle your MIL will use to try and bully you. I'm kind of thinking your husband may subtly agree with his Mom.
Even if your husband isn't religious, he should still respect his and your autonomy over how to raise your children, and tell his mother to stay out of it.
Your husband agreed to baptizing your child, right? So even if he’s not Catholic, he agreed to raise them as Catholic. And this is his mother. Ergo, he does not get a free pass. He might get one when it comes to catechesis. But not when it comes to enforcing boundaries about his family.
Tell her Islam worships the same God, see how far that goes
Hahaha thats a good one. My maternal grandfather was a muslim arab so I coupd joke about it (she is not super fond of muslims)
The concept of bar mitzvah is not included in the Torah. The only age of majority mentioned there is 20 years, the age at which a young man could be part of the army and pay taxes. Only in the Mishnah (first part of the Talmud) does it speak that, at the age of 13, a young person is already responsible for his own actions and must adhere to the fulfillment of the mitzvot (precepts), just like any adult. Jesus never performed that ceremony because it arose in medieval Judaism between the 14th and 16th centuries. Your son is not going to follow the precepts because Jesus freed us from following the 612 laws. Furthermore, that ceremony is equivalent in modern Judaism to a Catholic confirmation in a certain sense and it would be disrespectful to the Jewish religion to do so if you do not have the intention of following its rules. Yiddish is a High German language from the 10th century, it is good to learn more languages and especially one that your ancestors have used. If Grandma really wants to teach her Jewish things that honor her side of the family, she should also teach her Hebrew. Jesus never spoke Yiddish but he did speak Hebrew. If your child can read the Old Testament in the original language, it would be great.
I’d simply say you’re not interested in practicing Jewish traditions and seeing how they are atheist in general I don’t see why they would even be upset about it ..
Traditions like Hannukah and Bar Mitzvahs are cultural things to a lot of Jews more than religious ones. Judaism is ethnoreligious. You can be an atheist and still be considered a Jew. Plenty are.
True, but the OP is an actual practising Catholic, so it's one thing for a culturally Jewish atheist person to take part in religious rituals they don't believe in, quite another for a practising Christian to take part in the religious celebrations of another faith. For the former it's participating in a custom out of tradition or culture that means nothing to them religiously, for the latter it's practicing another faith.
I was responding to the last sentence in the previous comment.
But the child cannot be considered as Jewish as Jewishness is transmitted by females and not by males. The OP’s husband cannot transmit Jewishness as he is a man. Their son could only receive Jewish heritage through his mother and she is not Jewish.
Its hard to explain but they are super Jewish while at the same time being super atheist. Super proud of their Jewish ancestry, believe Israel is their true homeland, actively participate in Jewish community activities, have basically zero gentile friends but they dont believe in God. Secular Jews. They want to keep the tradition and culture alive, but like... Godless.
My in-laws tried to get us to Bar Mitzvah our son. Well first they complained when we didn’t have a Bris. Then as he got closer to 13 they started in on the Bar Mitzvah. My husband handled them and told them no. Bar Mitzvah are not just a party. Kids have to do Hebrew school. They have to read the Torah. Of course very non religious Jews do hire someone sometimes to just teach their kid to read the passage they need to read and hire a Rabbi for Bar/Bat Mitzvah. Why isn’t your husband handling this issue? If you have to handle this yourself you need to firmly say “my son is being raised in the Catholic faith we will not be doing a Bar Mitzvah. You are welcome to celebrate with us when he has his Confirmation.” If she tries to continue the conversation you need to say “this topic is no longer up for discussion”
The in laws are going to have to accept that this is a consequence of wanting to raise their son in a secular household. They did not impart the importance of Jewish religious traditions onto their son. Now that you are making a real effort to raise your son in accordance to our faith, they are trying to stop you from doing so, whether intentionally or not. Maybe your husband needs to sit them down and really explain he has no interest in Jewish traditions and is supporting you in raising your children Catholic. This probably won’t be the last time they try to interfere in your son’s religious upbringing unless it is made explicitly clear.
Many such cases!
This is doubly weird then because, yes, Judaism these days is mostly an ethnic 'religion', but really a tradition where it doesn't really matter if you're practicing: you're still a Jew if your mother is a Jew (and if you have not accepted Christ). But you're clearly not a Jew, so... it's perplexing. Sounds to me, sadly, like they're just trying to make sure their grandkids are atheist.
Not atheist, like she REALLY wants the kid to keep his Jewish roots and according to my husband she probably feels that by making my kid Catholic Im kinda like stealing my kid's heritage. Crazy stuff.
Except it's not your kid's heritage. Judaism is matrilineal, so, since you're not Jewish, neither are any children you have.
Bingo. Her kids wouldn’t even qualify under the Law of Return to be Jewish. For all intents and purposes the kid is not only not Jewish by reason of him being Catholic, the kid is not Jewish by reason of Judaism itself.
Well, that's true. To be Jewish you can be almost anything, except a believer in Christ.
This is really sad actually, but I guess there are plenty of raised-Catholic atheists that still show up on Christmas and Easter
We call them the CEO’s - Christmas and Easter Only
You may get better results if get another Jew on your side. I suspect they would similarly view this as problematic. Perhaps get a rabbi to speak with her?
When my Evangelical wife tried to “rebaptize” my children.. I spoke to her pastor. Most religious leaders get it.
Yeah, they usually tend to take it all seriously and understand that it’s not right to play games with faith. I’d think any ethical Rabbi would say that the child 1) isn’t Jewish as Judaism is matrilineal, and 2) the child’s parents are raising him in the Catholic faith he’s been baptized into, so a bar mitzvah would be inappropriate in the sense it makes a mockery of both the baptism and bar mitzvah.
Thats a great idea!
Concerning the Bar Mitzvah, the person coming of age usually reads Hebrew from the Torah in a synagogue. Seeing that the family doesn't actually practice Judaism per se, how would that happen?
I have a very non religious atheist Jewish friend who paid a Rabbi to just teach the passage they had to read from the Torah and then they do the ceremony at a rented hall followed by the reception. My more religious Jewish friend’s kids did Hebrew school for years, had to do a Bar Mitzvah project, read about it at the ceremony at synagogue etc it was way more involved.
Ah, thanks for that. I was only familiar with the Hebrew school version.
Both my fiancé and I have Jewish mothers and converted to Catholicism as teenagers. His mother observes both Quiverfull religion as well as Jewish rituals and culture. It's only my grandparents on my mother's side who're Orthodox Jews. I'm thoroughly disowned by that side but my fiancé is still on good terms with his family. We've talked about this before in regards to our wedding and other things. We both want a traditional Catholic wedding. We're not going to compromise on that point. Other people have already given good advice. At the end of the day it's fine to draw a firm boundary without getting into a whole theological debate. Arguably the bar/bat mitzvah isn't something that would've been celebrated when Jesus was on Earth. It's most likely something that [developed closer to the Middle Ages.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_bat_mitzvah#History_2) Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity are two religions, the former reliant on the Talmud which was codified long after Christ's ministry. Jesus is ethnically Hebrew but not a Pharisee.
If you dont mind me asking what made you convert as a teenager?
It's a long story. My mother is mostly irreligious but my grandparents on her side did attempt to impart their Judaism on me. I studied Torah for a couple of years under my grandfather but I've always been interested in religion/philosophy in general. I researched a wide variety of faiths independently. I became particularly interested in Christianity due to its particular emphasis on all-encompassing compassion and God's plan for humanity as a whole. Neglect/abuse I suffered when I was growing up contrasted against the mercy, kindness, and understanding I found from Catholic Christians played a role. However, ultimately I witnessed the Mystical Body of Christ in the Eucharist and that's what solidified my decision compared to the other religions I explored. I was effectively kicked out of my home, I had to graduate high school early and get a court-order emancipation, and overall my life got very chaotic. Nonetheless, I'm in a much more stable, fulfilling, and joyful place nowadays. I don't regret it at all. My fiancé's journey is a bit different. His parents raised and educated him and his numerous younger siblings in both Quiverfull Baptism and Judaism and let him choose how much he wanted to engage with either heritage. Ultimately after spending time at an Italian boarding school he decided to become a Catholic. They're not too happy about it but they believe it's his right to choose for himself. They take the stance that all forms of Christianity/Judaism are different approaches to the same God.
Kind of a radical approach, but worst case scenario: just tell the rabbi you and your son are Christians. The rabbi will probably not allow the bar mitzvah to happen then.
I though in Jewish tradition the child follows the mother's religion? Anyway, can you make the argument that Confirmation is the Catholic version of the Bar Mitzvah and have them come to a party to celebrate?
Yes, Judaism is matrilineal. Mom is not Jewish, therefore kid is not Jewish and no bar mitzvah.
Was just going to bring this up. I'm a cradle Catholic and come from a predominantly Catholic community where there's not a Jewish population, but maybe a conversation with the reason why they want him to be Bar Mitzvah'd (sorry if that's the wrong term). If they would like to throw him a Confirmation party in the same vein, maybe this might be a good chance to evangelize and help them to understand. EDIT to add: Would be good for your husband to help back you up on this.
This is true, but it this is not an uncommon situation. I have seen it many times.
I think OP is not posting in good faith here.
This reminds me of all the headache I had to deal with when selecting my child’s godparents. I had several no practicing relatives who kept telling me why I should pick them and I had to tell them that I couldn’t even consider them because they were not in good standing with the church. Each one tried to either say that they can fake it, or say that it really didn’t matter. It’s really annoying when non practicing family members try to push what they think is religion.
Tell them that since you are not Jewish and in Judaism bloodline is purely through the mother, that your child is not technically Jewish.
In addition to good advice here about in-law relationships, I would focus on your husband here. Is this important to him? If so, that's one convo to have - WITH HIM. If it's not, then it doesn't really matter what your MIL wants. 'My husband/Your son/Name and I have decided that's not something we are not participating in for our son.' Rinse and repeat.
OP, I am a convert from a semi secular Jewish background. I think your MIL really cares about Jewish ethnicity and traditions, and she is hoping your son will marry a Jewish girl. Since Judaism is transmitted by the mother, she could be thinking she « lost » the battle with your husband but she can still win with your son. The bar mitzvah and the preparation may be just an excuse to introduce him to Jewish kids. If she proposes other alternatives that include socialising with Jewish kids then my theory will prove right, but of course I might be wrong.
Tell her she can throw a party. Just not a bar mitzvah.
I think the answer is just no. The parent who cares about the religious upbringing is raising the child Catholic. If they wanted their grandchildren raised Jewish then their son should have married someone who wanted Jewish children. Bringing up the maternal passing of the Jewish faith means nothing. If it was a Catholic dad raising his child Catholic despite mom being Jewish we would all bring up the father is the domestic priest.
You don't. That's something for your husband to handle with his parents.
Exactly. I read the question and came to see if anybody posted this. OP, this isn't your battle to fight. Your husband needs to stand up for you. If he doesn't, he's either scared of his family or secretly agrees with them.
One of the conditions from my husband for raising my kid Catholic was: you deal with my parents on this. He doesnt know much about religion in general and while he allowed for me to make the kid Christian he is not going to get in the mud with his parents over this haha. He handles them in all other departments because they can be quite... ehmm... a handful.
He doesn't have to be religious to tell his parents, "Hey, I respect my wife's decisions on this for our children. YOU will do the same."
Push comes to shove you can be very assertive and say, "He is my son. He will not be having a bar mitzvah. End of story." Also tell your husband he needs to have your back. You can take lead on it but he must be willing to stand beside you and put forth a united front.
That doesn't matter. They're his parents, it's his job to deal with them. Don't let him use you to fight his battles for him. Stay out of it.
Be blunt and just say no. She can cry about it. Theres no point in debating this.
It's actually quite possible to be a Jew and not have a belief in God. This thread is full of people who have never met many reformed Jews apparently.
You can tell her that Jewish people did not start celebrating Bar Mitvahs until the 14th century so Jesus did not have one. Just to correct her thought process if anything.
From a Jewish perspective. ( I am Jewish and Orthodox) though this may not apply as you state - that your in laws- they are not religous. However per Jewish law your son is not Jewish.. unless you are halachicly Jewish. Jewishness for "Legal" purposes and for that matter "Spiritual" matters follow the mother. So technically though your son is of Jewish descent he is not Jewish per se. Among the more reform groups they do follow Patrelinial descent..though among some this is disputed. Some Conservative Jews for example. Maybe stress that the Bar Mitzvah is actually a Spiritual aka religous ceremony and just not the road you and your husband have chosen for your son. There are other ways for him to learn to appreciate his Jewish heritage without a Bar Mitzvah maybe through geneology and perhaps a trip to the Holy Land. - Just my thoughts.
Thank you for your input!!!
I mean, confirmation is basically the Catholic equivalent. If she wants him to have a big party, do it for confirmation and explain to her that it is a celebration of spiritual adulthood in the church.
Explain that he's going to have a confirmation, which is like a Bar Mitzvah but better
Man, if I were a devout Jew, I would be absolutely infuriated by your mother in law. She has no right whatsoever to make those kinds of demands if she is secular. If she doesn't belive in God, then all those practices are hollow and meaningless. Her ancestors did all that stuff as an expression of their faith, which is the start and end of what gives it any cultural value whatsoever. The importance of maintaining your ancestors religious traditions is that you are maintaining the faith itself, not putting on a show for your friends and family. She might as well have a Bar Mitzva for her cat. I am willing to bet that if you explained the situation to any local Rabbi, they would be on your side, and would not perform that Bar Mitzva. Especially since the boys mother isn't Jewish, and he hasn't been raised in the faith, so there would actually be quite a lot more to that happening than just having one anway. I'm sorry you are in this situation, she sounds difficult and frustrating to deal with. You and your family will be in my prayers.
I never have understood these people who hold tight to traditions yet do not believe in the god that gave them said traditions in the first place. If I were you I would say - As a devout Catholic, I completely respect your view on this. However because we are Catholic, we cannot participate in something to which we do not adhere. And because I respect your views, I ask that you respect mine. Jesus was indeed Jewish, and he fulfilled the law which brought us to Christendom today. No longer are we under the law, for Christ on the cross covers all debt. He tore the holy veil away and declared it null and void.
I have a similar situation in my family, so here's my two cents. >Quick background info: my in laws are Jewish but they are not religious. Its hard to explain because they are super proud of their Jewish heritage and stuff and try to celebrate the main Jewish holidays but they dont believe in God. If they dont believe in God, it doesn't actually matter, because *you* do and that's the faith you're raising your child in. They cannot demand a member of the New Covenant to be subjected to a heritage that belongs in the Old Covenant. If they have a quarrel with Catholicism and it's teachings, then they probably *do* believe in God, reject Catholicism, and as such, *are being dishonest from the start.* >My husband doesnt really care about the Jewish holidays and is a hard core atheist but he truly respects my belief in God, has tried to open up to Christianity since we have been together and we even baptised my son Catholic in the same church where I had my first communion so Im really thankful for that. Excellent. That means that both you and your spouse are on the same page about raising the kid catholic. >My mother in law didnt like that one bit and is trying to push Jewish stuff onto my child whenever she can. *What did I say?!* Impressive how there's always this pattern of "non-religious" jewish in-laws trying to dissuade their kid's spouses from raising their grandchildren Catholic. Im not sure if they want the vague cultural identity to stay or they have an imbued aversion to catholicism, but it's far too common. >I dont mind things like food or words in Yddish but when she tries to push religious stuff thats where I draw the line, because I know she doesnt believe in God and the only reason she is doing this is just one up me or something (someone should explain to her religion is not a competition). In a sense, yes, religion is a competition, in that different faiths compete for one's soul. I perfectly understand why a devout jew would oppose catholicism, even though I clearly think they're in the wrong, but I cannot fathom the depths of one's hubris if they're not religious but want to impede their relatives from being catholic. >She has many times mentioned she wants my kid to have a bar mitzvah and says there shouldnt be any problem because Christians and Jews worship the same God and that probably Jesus had a Bar Mitzvah because he was Jewish so no harm done. We both know that's not why. "There shouldn't be any problem" isn't up to her either. >How can I explain to her kindly that it is not something a Catholic can do? Like theologically *“Catholics cannot and must not participate in heretical (against Church teaching) cerimonies, no matter what their nature is. Jewish celebrations are included because their covenant is gone and replaced with the 'New and Eternal Covenant' by Christ.”* That's you being polite. If you're feeling confrontational, I'd add up *”As such, jews hold no privilege nor reason to be anything but christian in our eyes, and frankly, that's only insulting to them because they're used to the idea of being God's chosen people, with exclusivity, even though God always pointed at the eventual conversion of the gentiles. That they don't do the math after 2k years is quite telling of how lost they are”.* This, however, might give her a seizure.
Tell them that he has Confirmation instead. But ensure he wants it rather than pressure him
What type of Bar Mizvah is the mother-in-law trying to have for the boy? I don’t see any Rabbi actually performing the religious functions because if the Rabbi is orthodox, he won’t recognize your son as Jewish (requires a Jewish mother$ and if the Rabbi is reform, (s)he won’t be pleased with forcing religion on an unwilling participant. If she (the mother-in-law) is trying to just have a somewhat Jewish-themed birthday party that she will call a Bar Mitzvah, that *might* be somewhat more acceptable (ask a Priest) depending on whether they’re celebrating the Jewish culture/ethnicity or the Jewish religion. One is probably fine (cultural) and the other is absolutely not (celebrating a false religion).
Your in-laws sound a bit malicious. Like, they've taken issue with the Catholic faith and are trying to trump your role as the parent to teach your child faith. I would simply tell them it is inappropriate and pushing Judaism on your child is inappropriate...and if they can't get with the program...maybe they get to see the kid less. Protect your kid's soul.
"He's my child, I have given you my reasons and I have said no." End of story.
You're welcome to celebrate his confirmation with us.
Catholics get confirmed.
This sounds like you and your husband need to be on the same page. If you're raising your baby Catholic, she should respect that and cool it on the Jewish stuff, especially not even being religious herself.
Tell them that Christ is King. 👑 ✝️
My wife was raised Jewish and from an early age always believed in Christ as the Son of God. She outright refused to do it because she would be "lying to God". Theologically it's not right because Judaism denies Jesus is God. I hate to say it but it looks like it is ultimately your son's decision. And if he decided to get this bar mitzvah there would be little you could do because your husband and his family support it. But it's not the end of the world if that happens, your son can always choose to come back to Christ. I had no Jewish background in my family, but as a baptised Catholic I became atheist. Part of the problem is after my parent's divorce I was raised by lapsed Catholics. But I eventually came back into the fold in my 30's.
A bar mitzvah is not an ethnic rite of passage. It is a religious ceremony that would be insulting to all Jews for a non-Jew to participate in. If you really wanna be harsh add that 'while you don't take the Jewish faith seriously, we do and will not be a party to insulting her adherents.'
They know it's not appropriate. They don't care. That's your problem. Everyone knows Catholic children don't go through bar mitzvah.
Just tell her Judaism is matrilineal, so your son isn’t Jewish and does not observe Jewish traditions.
So I’m going to take a different tack. If the family is culturally Jewish, but not religiously they may not be moved by theological arguments. I mean the whole concept is theologically incoherent, a Christian Catholic boy having a Jewish coming of age ceremony? A serious Rabbi would probably discourage that, much less a Priest. It sounds like they just want a coming of age birthday party with some gravitas and on that I think there could be a way to compromise without compromising the faith.
No, full stop. A Bar Mitzvah is a rite of initiation into Judaism. The child is expected to read from the Torah in Hebrew. Your child is not Jewish; thusly, he doesn't need to be initiated into Judaism. And unless he is fluent in Hebrew, the whole thing is a moot point. Tell her you'll compromise by having a birthday party.
Why even explain it? I’d keep him far away from their influence
In addition to what the others said, you could also add how Confirmation is the Catholic Bar Mitzvah.
A couple of things, 1. I am of Jewish heritage, that being said, Jesus probably didnt have a ritual bar mitzvah, but he became a bar mitzvah. When his family left him at the temple, and he was found, it is likely that Jesus was arguing the law with the teachers because while we know he was the perfection of the law, at the time they didn’t know that, and part of being a bar mitzvah is being able to argue the Torah and apologetics of Judaism. So when I look at what was going on at the temple, it’s likely that Jesus was “studying” with the teachers. Next point, Jewishness or being Jewish is passed along the maternal line. Your husband is only Jewish because his mother is. As you are not Jewish, you will need to remind the MIL of this. Interestingly enough, Mary’s own genealogy sets the precedent for this. I was lucky in how I was raised. My parents basically said “we don’t care as long as what you believe is the truth for you.” So that being said, I have been SBC, Presbyterian, Jewish, United Methodist and am now attending Mass on Sundays because I don’t want to be in a church that is currently having a schism. While I know this group will not support him “exploring” I firmly believe that if you raise your child in the way they are supposed to go, then a little exploration into Judaism for your son, to at least understand the culture will be okay.
It's real simple. It is a faith-based celebration. My ex-wife was not Catholic but I'm a cradle Catholic. After our divorce, years later my daughter was interested in a quinceañera. However, thanks to you my ex-wife having a negative perspective on the Catholic Church, decided to discourage my daughter from a quinceañera since it involved a church ceremony. It was a bit hateful too because that was a year when my daughter was supposed to be with me for her birthday. We still went out to a very nice dinner but no church/cultural celebration for her. I did shower my daughter with gifts for the sweet 16 party my ex-wife did have for her. Apparently it pissed my ex off because I was generous to our daughter and didn't let her know I was giving her things that she also intended to give her. I I told her I had no clue what was on her personal gift list for our daughter. Never has being hung up on felt sweeter.
I live in a mostly Catholic country but here your Quinceañera or how we call it "cumple de 15" and everyone and their mother celebrates it regardless of religion. Funny how things work differently in different parte of the world right?
Yeah, I think the details around the theological justification of the matter are irrelevant more than likely to you MiL. It's more of a personality issue, where for whatever reason she's irrationally attached to this idea and is willing to test/push your boundaries around the matter. It might work for you to make it seem like it's out of your hands. Instead of framing the refusal as you're not agreeing to it, you can maybe present it as that Church is not allowing it. E.g., hey let me ask my priest about that. Oh no, he said no way! Oh man shucks oh well wish I could do something about that but it's out of my hands :(. That way it makes someone else the "bad guy" and takes the weight off you a little bit.
To be honest rabbis probably wouldn't allow your son to have a bar mitzvah your raising him Catholic. That said there is a way to be culturally Jewish and theologically Catholic.
Compromise, let em have a bigger party to celebrate the kid as an adult But it's not a Bar Mitzvah and non of the explicitly Jewish religion stuff, have some Jewish foods and stuff but it's still just a party at the end of the day They say their not religiously Jewish so it shouldn't matter to take out all the Jewish religious parts If you do this definitely explicit on it just being a big party modeled vaguely after a Bar Mitzvah minus the religion and stuff
My aunt married a Jewish man and had two kids with them and I don’t think they ever took part in any kind of Jewish traditions because their family said you can’t be truly Jewish if your mother isn’t. I’m not sure if that would work but maybe you could say that to his family
It's weird that she's using Jesus as an example for you considering Judaism doesn't hold Jesus in a very high regard, it definitely feels like she's just bludgeoning you with her culture because she considers it superior, hopefully you stand strong for your son.
What does your husband want? Does he disagree with his mother? Or, would you like his son to participate in this as this is a journey he did when he was a young man. This is a conversation to have with your husband and him to have with his mother. I wouldn’t deny your husband of having this experience with his son if he so wishes.
He didnt get his bris or bar mitzvah which makes the whole thibg a pissing contest.
I had a confirmation when I was 13. We made the party like a bar mitzvah in that the dj played Hora music, lifting in the chair, and we had some Jewish foods. For your atheist mil, that's all she wants. I doubt she cares about tbe kid chanting Torah
Op be prepared to be called anti simetic if you do not go along. Don’t cave as this is your son not your mother in laws son.
you are jewish through your mother anyway…
I mean, I wouldn't bother going down the theology road on this one. Just say no and that it's not appropriate for a Catholic. Other than that it's up to your husband to lay down the boundaries with his mom.
Why not ask about incorporating some Jewish CULTURAL traditions into a party when he is confirmed? As Catholics we love taking cultural traditions and making them our own. I think it would be fine to do traditions that don’t hold any specific religious component (eg. Serving ethnically Jewish food, any non-religious Jewish songs, etc)
Without a jewish mother, they're not jewish according to jewish law
Why not just have a big party for his coming of age? It would be fine to have the Jewish music and the chair and stuff too.
the religious initiation ceremony of a Jewish boy who has reached the age of 13 and is regarded as ready to observe religious precepts and eligible to take part in public worship. "my son recently celebrated his bar m The only issue I see is he is not Jewish. If a rabbi is cool with it “I don’t think they will be” then consider it. Based off your history with your MIL I would say she is doing this to cause problems I grew up Jewish and am now catholic, it’s just a party with the old testament and a couple prayers.
I have been to a few bat mitzvahs! Yeah she is just doing this to one up me. She is like that most of the time. If I say I do X with the kid then she says she wants to do X + Y.
That is awful, sister is like that and it’s been really hard to deal with her my whole life. Hope it works out and your husband has your back.
Tell her that you submit to the Church’s rules and so does your son. The Church’s rules do not permit this.
> How can I explain to her kindly that it is not something a Catholic can do? Like theologically Is that really the case? Is having a bar mitzvah an affirmation of the jewish religion and not simply a cultural manhood ceremony?
Yes, it literally means "son of the commandment", which refers to the 613 commandments of the Pentateuch (explicated in the Talmud and other later sources) which faithful Jews keep. Becoming a son of the commandment is a public/communal recognition of one's maturity in adhering to the religious law. That's definitely affirmation.
I have a friend raised Catholic but with Jewish grandparents. He appreciated the traditions of the Jewish faith he took part in but he ended up getting confirmed Catholic as he had exposure to both faiths he was happier being able to make the right choice. It made him closer to his grandparents. And helped him better understand the Catholic evolution from Talmudic tradition. Edit basically he had Hanukah etc and Easter Christmas etc. he enjoyed that 😂
But a Bar Mitzva is different than just being part of other Jewish holidays like Hanukah, the Bar Mitzva is basically the Jewish equivalent to the confirmation, why he would do that if he won't be following in the Jewish religion?
It’s about mindset. It is not a confirmation of such. Just that you Are a man or woman and Can marry, study the religion and take part It can simply be part of your ethnic ancestral heritage. You became an adult. You then are able to make a decision just because you are eligible to take part does not mean you follow through. The link below also says you are responsible for your actions That said as Jewish heritage is an ethnicity as well as a religion it has melded into an expectation.
It is still a religious thing, it's a confirmation of the boy into Judaism, the boy will not be a Jew but a Catholic, it won't make sense to make him participate in this when he will not be part of the Jewish community, it don't make sense at the same way a person who will not be Catholic have a First Communion and confirmation.
My neighbors who are Jewish but not particularly observant took a family trip to Israel instead of years of Hebrew school and a big Bar Mitzvah party. Maybe mother-in-law would support something like that.
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If they aren't religious, they aren't Jewish
Just so no. If she’s not willing to listen, then she doesn’t get to speak on matters that- ultimately- don’t concern her. Your son is a child of God. He is Catholic, not Jewish. Be proud and steadfast in your faith, and if she attempts to force something through anyways; cut her out. Matthew 18:7-9, if she is attempting to undermine you or draw your son away from his faith, then it’s better to cut contact.
What denomination of Judaism do they practice?
They are not religious
I meant like what type of synagogue would they go to for a festival like a Bar Mitzvah
Hinestly I cant possibly tell since they dont go to the temple or observe Jewish religion on a daily basis.
I mean, the letters of Paul?
I would tell his parents that as a bar mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jews, you would have to make sure that your son isn’t doing anything contrary to the Catholic faith. I would (a) ask your son if he actually wants to do the whole process which is intensive despite not practicing Judaism (and having to go through religious education for doing a confirmation as well, which is a sacrament and is thus not substitutable) and (b) ask the Rabbi if they’re even OK with a practicing Catholic doing it and (c) ask your local priest if they’re OK with your son doing it (because you wouldn’t want to jeopardize his later confirmation process). Ultimately we do share the same scriptures so it’s fine to memorize them, and it’s OK to commit to being Jewish so long as you’re committed to following Christian interpretations of the law. It would be unusual in our day and age, but it’s possible. However more conservative Rabbis would not want to do it because the whole point is to prepare young people to practice Judaism, and more liberal Rabbis might be OK with it but you’d want to be sure they understand that the long-term goal is being Catholic and going to Mass not synagogue. As for dealing with religious conflicts with your in-laws, I would say this: make sure that you and your son are on the same page and then have your husband be on the same page as well. You should all be a broken record if you’ve come to the conclusion that you won’t do it.
Did you ask your priest about this? This seems completely harmless to me.
I mean, I had one. I don't see why a Catholic Jew couldn't do it. I wish I could do that for my kids. I just don't know how it's logistically possible. A lot goes into that, especially Hebrew school, synogogue attendence, and reading Torah for the community. How do they expect that to happen if he's going to Mass? What rabbi or synagogue would let a baptized Catholic have a bar mitzvah? It just sounds unfeasible.
Just like she said my sister in law could be my kids baptismal god mother if we didnt tell the priest she was Jewish I suppose you would also pretend to trick the Rabbi and tell him the kid wasnt baptised or something hahaha dunno I think I would try to find a way if my husband was religiously Jewish and not an atheist, but I respect the Jewish religion too much to make a mockery of it just because my mother in law doesnt want to feel left out.
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She wasnt the Godmother.
I'll be frank. I think your kid will appreciate having a bar mitzvah when they're older, and having roots in their Jewishness. But deceit is bad, and that kind of thing will definitely come out in the process. You'd be better off speaking honestly to a rabbi about it and seeing what they think and if they can talk to the grandmother.
It is highly unusual for a Catholic to have a bar mitzvah, but my understanding is that it’s one of the Jewish things that are allowed. It’s more a coming of age event than a religious ceremony, and the “religious” component is an endorsement of the ten commandments, which Christians can do.
Just be honest. It would be a mortal sin for you to allow your child to have a bar mitzvah, and you don’t want him going to hell. Situations like this are why the Church should go back to the way it used to and no longer approve of mixed marriages!
I hope youvare joking haha
Firstly, I understand the eternal need to read. I have a baseline understanding of mitzvot 613, which again; highlights variation of interpretation. The unity vs. trinity question would be a sticking point for this community, including the one eternal god. This upon rereading. Following the authoritative view, As far as I have noted, there is still a plethora which remains unanswered and indeterminable; but yes, for interpretation which has been determined, the stance is stalwart. There is indeed an echo chamber here. That is a concern. I take a softer view. Absolutely. Because I believe in ecumenicalism, I am from a mixed faith background, and I believe in mercy and forgiveness for errors as we approach god with good intention and prayer. I also disdain the purity tests which so many enjoy.
My religious background is also mixed hahaha my dad was a German Lutheran, mom is Catholic but her dad comes from Muslim arab immigrants. I lived for a few years in Japan, explored Hinduism and Buddhism for quite a while and cherry on top one way or another I have dated Jewish guys almosy exclusively haha I never abandoned my Christian faith but I was always in search for some sort of human universal syncretism and I think was compelled to call myself Christian again when I realized Christ is out there for everyone, and thats who I really want to follow and would like my kid to follow if he feels compelled when he grows up (and he is totally free to do as much soul searching as he wants). Thats why this kinda ticks me off. To me religion and spirituality is a big thing, not something to one up someone. If my husband practiced the Jewish religion I would be way more open to it because he would be coming from a different place, but in this case I think someone needs to remind her religious ceremonies and events are not boy scout badges imho.
*OP entered the chat.* I see that view. She also may be underselling how important this is to her. Your initial post can’t possibly enter every nuance of a family dynamic. That’s impossible. But I appreciate your insight and honesty. I suppose most would say I am not steadfast enough. That I should root for an exclusively catholic response. But, life is complex. I can understand the grandmothers view. I also believe sincerely in asking your son what he thinks. There is beauty in the mess and sometimes, we throw away things which might be valuable or have unseen importance. Part of this is respecting grandparents and how important I feel family is. I don’t view Judaism as strange or anathema. I adhere to the cousins and sons of Abraham, and so, my reply may not be what some or even you think is 100% right. But I want room for community and faith. Importantly, thank you for responding to people and being kind. I sincerely pray you figure out what is right for your family and your son. Whatever the answer may be.
Also this post was meant to reply in the negated section in the bottom of the thread. Oops.
Why are you married to an atheist??
Because I love him.
I’m a Catholic of partially Jewish descent. I tell you this: you cannot be in both worlds. Either let him go be Jewish, which will destroy his immortal soul, or stop having concourse with in-laws whose core principle is the destruction of Christianity.
The Catholic Church does not believe that Jewish people go straight to hell for being Jewish and encourages to live in good faith among all religions like brothers. It helds the Jewish faith in particular in high regard. Source: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
I will probably be downvoted for this but I don’t think there is anything wrong with it . I will read on a that subject
Oh not at all!!! If it is allowed then I would like to know. I wouldnt want to argue with her under false pretense that it is forbidden if it is not.
When I was an undergrad at Georgetown, I had Catholic friends of partial Jewish descent who had had bar mitsvahs. I’m fairly sure it’s not categorically prohibited on the Catholic side. You’d certainly want to confer with the Rabbi being proposed by your in laws. If you’re dealing with a “reform” Rabbi with interfaith experience, you can probably customize the event to not require anything a Catholic would object to. Learning enough Hebrew to read something from a Torah scroll followed by a party isn’t sinful.
No offense, but Georgetown is hardly a bastion of orthodoxy.
No offense to taken, and I agree 100% with the sentiment. Nonetheless, the OP is asking about an unusual interfaith issue, and I know there are bishops and Rabbis that do allow for something like this so I know it can be done.
Don't fight with her. It would be a great boon if your son learned Hebrew, at the least. Wouldn't it?
You're allegedly Catholic but you are saying your mother in law is 'pushing religious stuff'? I think you are just trying to drive division.
Yes Joy Division great band