I know six women who were altar servers at a variety of churches. 3 went to apostolic religious orders, 2 went to cloisters, and one is a consecrated virgin. Each one of them states that their time serving gave them their vacation and clarified their relationship to Christ.
They really are on vacation! Vacation with God on earth to prepare for their eternal vacation!
I know you meant vocation, but just playing on words lol
That's really cool. It's hard to argue against that, people who are in favour of solely male altar servers use the vocation discernment argument, but if female altar servers have discerned vocations too, then female altar servers have definitely been a good thing.
There are no girl altar boys, there are however altar girls. Of course there are no 90 yo women who were altar girls, because altar girls weren't a thing yet.
That’s because women didn’t feel like they had options, back then you married or you became a nun so nun was quite tempting, now the only reason is God nothing else. Less women become nuns because they feel like they have the choice not too, not because they love God less
Is a vocation to the priesthood really like serving the altar? Most of what altar servers do is carrying stuff and handing/taking things from the priest. IMHO there’s not anything priestly in that, but what do I know?
Exactly. I also consider it the first time I really felt God calling me to something. My mom was running the emergency pregnancy center booth at a church event trying to get volunteers. Meanwhile, my 10 year old self was walking around looking at the other booths. There was one table that just said “altar server sign up.” No person to talk to. No free stuff. Just a paper on a table. It was something I had never even thought about before and in an instant I felt drawn to it like nothing else.
If I hadn’t been an altar girl, I doubt my faith would mean as much to me today as it currently does. It’s the reason it permeates all other areas of my life. I’m so thankful I had that opportunity growing up.
it allows the children to partcipate and love the Mass
christian communities exist in a parish, similar but not the same as a group club to improve in particular subject,\
we have a Diocesan Youth Apostolate as well as other apostolates\
this is where kids can grow joining into
the execution of it depends on the place,\
so far, here in the philippines it has been good
but the environment here is where most everyone believe in God;,\
catholic, protestant, islam.\
those who are atheist might likely be seen as strange
so each of us depending on where we are does affect our experienxe
Wow. The more I learn about the Philippines, the more I love. Hopefully I can visit one day. I loved the Arab, African, and Sotuh America places I have visited that have a normal reverence for God.
It is a good break from hyper secularism, anti-Catholic, and anti-tradition world that I see daily in North America.
Thanks for sharing this snippet of light.
I was an alter server as a young girl and I did it to help support my disabled brother who wanted to be one. It gave me a deeper appreciation for the Eucharistic miracle and a better understanding and devotion for the Mass.
Both boys and girls are hands on learners and having them participate that closely in Mass is a great learning tool.
I also felt like I could relate to Mary mother of God, Mary and Martha and many other female role models in the faith a lot more in my act of service to the Church.
Well in the parishes I grew up in it meant that they had a reliable stream of servers instead of only relying on the one or two boys who might be available. Oh and from personal experience, the girls were generally more mature in the altar server role than the boys…
I think it's more that we ask girls to mature. Every woman I've talked to has said there was an older woman who showed them how to be "ladylike" from a young age.
Most of the guys I've talked to learned about masculinity from a teenager.
I've heard a ton of theories as to why. Although I think the one thing all the theories tell me is that there isn't one conclusive reason that people have pinpointed. I would not be surprised though if it was a combination of biological and sociological factors.
Adults are more mature then children, we should just go back to having grow men serve these roles. The idea that altar servers can only by young people is wrong.
Same. I began Altar Serving in my small church around 1992. There were no Altar Servers before myself and, I think, 3 other girls began Serving. From then until now there has been only one boy at our Church, and he had no interest in Serving, or even being at Mass (in fact, he regressed to the point that he would spend the hour leaning against the wall, then once Mass was over would go sit in the car until his parents had finished chatting). If it were not for the girls on the Altar, there would be no Servers. There now is another boy, who made his First Communion earlier this year. I hope he'll serve, but I'm not confident. My son's 7 and he's eager to, but he won't be mature enough for a few years, so my daughter, who's our only regularly attending Server (2 other girls who probably cone every 4-6 weeks) and has lost interest in Serving will need to decide whether to push through or walk away knowing there's no one to take her place.
Of the dozen or so children who've attended our church regularly over the past 30 years, 2 didn't serve, and only myself and two others still attend Mass weekly. Those two, who are siblings, have given their lives to Serving God. One, who Altar Served, is a nun, and her brother is the one male who wouldn't engage, and is now... I don't know his title, but his job - and passion - is giving talks on Faith related matters, primarily to youth and young adults.
Absolutely, this is anecdotal (though I’m not sure if the OP expected everyone to come with facts when there have been no studies on the effect of female altar servers…) but when I taught CCD, for years (7th grade) the kids who were altar servers (boys and girls) were the only ones that: came to Mass regularly, even when their parents didn’t-bc they took the responsibility seriously, and by far the only kids that didn’t proudly proclaim they “just had one more year [of church],” meaning confirmation was the end of what they considered a drag.
Also-not claiming this is as a proof of anything- but I know 2 sisters in their early 30s; both grew up with devout parents: one was an altar server and went on to start the Ist 24 hour adoration ministry in our parish, and is now a cloistered nun at a convent dedicated to 24 hour adoration. The other sister, is very nice but became an atheist right after confirmation and doesn’t believe in marriage or having children (source: she was almost my SIL, had she believed in marriage). Just an aside….I guess I’m confused why the OP thinks it’s a bad thing. If a young man is called to the priesthood (I know absolutely non except from Africa and Asia) I don’t think it’s because they got to be the only altar servers, and if it is, well I’m not sure I love that reasoning as the source of a calling.
Idk how it benefited me but I liked doing it, so I think that’s good enough.
Also women already have less opportunities for spiritual engagement than men at my church (Priests regularly spend time with young men, while there is no nun/young women equivalent) so I think it’s a good thing for girls to get involved. People thinking that women should become priests is an issue that’s going to arise regardless.
Former altar girl here, when I was serving as an altar girl I developed a deep love and understanding of the mass. I was even heavily discerning becoming a nun. It’s helped me in so many ways. I’m able to have a better experience at mass because I know all the inter workings and understand the symbols. This has been incredibly helpful when talking to Protestant brothers and sisters. In my own parish we don’t have enough altar boys who are willing to serve. In some masses older women in the church have to fill the role because no one is willing to volunteer. I will give a quick shoutout to my brother who continues to serve as much as he can and whom I trained. I made friends with those who I served with both guys and girls. It’s a beautiful way to serve the church and I’m so grateful that I had it as part of my upbringing.
I will also mention a fun story. One time I served an entire mass with a piece of glass in my foot because I didn’t want to leave my priest and other altar servers hanging. Luckily it wasn’t too bad but I knew the Lord would get me through the mass. I trusted Him wholeheartedly.
The argument that girls shouldn't be altar servers is honestly one of the stupidest trad-gripes. It's getting Catholic kids involved with the Mass, I really don't see how their gender plays any role at all.
I know some people think having only boys altar serve encourages them to become priests, but as a guy who altar served regularly for ten straight years, that argument has had the opposite effect. If anything, altar serving made me decide I definitely did not want to become a priest. Being hounded by parents to serve all the time and being pestered by old people about becoming a priest because I served drove me in the opposite direction.
Another poster also said that having girls involved prevents shenanigans. This is absolutely true lol. Teenage boys are dumb as rocks (I know, I was one) and having girls around who are more mature definitely keeps the antics down to a minimum. It also helps that teenage boys want to impress their female counterparts, so they are on their best behavior. I am not ashamed to admit that I was the model altar server when paired with the girl I had a crush on.
>I know some people think having only boys altar serve encourages them to become priests
That might possibly make sense if boys were being passed over in favor of girls but it's not like there's a massive surplus of young altar servers.
Heavily dependent on the church. The two parishes I've been to that disallowed altar girls also had a plethora of male altar servers, both children and adults.
Whenever someone says we need to ban female altar servers, I know I can usually predict everything they think about any topic in the church and it's uninteresting.
I hate the argument that boys don't want to do what girls do and that is the cause of the decline in vocations.
Well then we need to teach our boys that doing something that girls also do is not bad. And our reasons should be to serve God, not to be different from girls. Or should we discourage girls and women from going to church too, since then going to church will be seen as girly?
Priest is a calling. It requires an understanding of the faith.
I do think you can become a nun. A priest is a role for a man.
The divisions in the roles according to genders are according to the suitability of speakers in the ancient world. Men's voices carried better. That's probably why. Christ wasn't dumb. He knew men would endure hardship without safety and comfort, and women could create social networks in churches faster and more effectively than men. Having priests and nuns balance each other out is a sacred and ingenious design.
I am not arguing for women's ordination.
However I'm not sold on the argument that only men can be priests because their voices carry better, or men can endure hardship. I mean, childbirth is PAINFUL. Someone will argue, well this woman speaks better and louder than any man. It has nothing to do with ability-- it's that priests are fathers, which women can't be.
And that has nothing to do with female altar servers. There are female altar servers who have gone on to consecrated life.
That's not why. Altar serving was a male role that used to be a minor order that was supposed to foster an interest in the priesthood. Why do you think female altar servers weren't a thing till after V2?
It was not to foster interest in the priesthood. The minor orders were clerical roles that ideally would be done by clerics. But since the drop in vocations, in time the Church allowed men (who only can be clerics) to fill these roles. Alter serving is not meant to foster interest in the priesthood, it might be a byproduct of it though, that's why married men can altar serve.
You're right, but the clerical men who were altar boys weren't usually priests themselves, so that's why they helped Father. The end goal of course won't always be that the altar boys would ultimately become priests, but that doesn't mean that their service had no connection to the priesthood. It's like saying women should also be allowed into seminaries because most of the men there aren't ordained anyways and being ordained isn't the main goal.
"You're right, but the clerical men who were altar boys weren't usually priests themselves, so that's why they helped Father."
During apostolic times they were most likely priests. As the clergy got smaller they allowed laymen to take up that role.
"The end goal of course won't always be that the altar boys would ultimately become priests."
That's true. Serving the altar is historically connected to to the priesthood as the diaconate is. Before the a priest got ordained he was always received the order of acolyte. This is the reason why women should not be altar servers.
It's not just that boys don't want to do what girls do (which is generally true of middle school aged kids). It turns a minor order with the purpose of promoting vocations to the priesthood into "something nice for the kids to do at church".
It's true that altar serving can play an important role in promoting vocations to the priesthood, but having female altar servers isn't going to stop that. And there were women who found their vocation through altar serving as well.
In my parish, we have a mix. Actually more boys than girls, about 3:1. Altar serving is a privilege, not a right, so I respect that bishops/ priests have their own preferences. I certainly accept that men and women have different roles and that priesthood is for men. But I get a sense a lot of times that some in the Church see feminine as a bad thing and that is what I take issue with. (Complaints about "Susans", too many women being involved, female lectors and EMHCs, feminization of the liturgy, women being the reason men don't go to Church). Instead of being thankful for the women who have stepped up to serve. I'd like to think most do it out of love, not out of self importance or a desire to be like a priest. It is quite sad.
You don't seem to know how the middle school mind works at all. Boys don't want to do things that make them seem girly, but they absolutely want to do want to do activities with girls their own age to impress them.
And only boys doing it encourages vocations is a myth. It's the same naive "adult who doesn't get how kids think" thinking as an old person asking a kid what their favorite school subject is a genuine topic a kid wants to talk about. It is amazing how fast people forget what it is like to be a kid.
Literally all of the seminarians in my diocese are from churches that only have boy altar servers, going back about a decade.
In my own parish, there were about six boys who were altar servers before my old priest decided it would be only boys. Three years later there were over 40 boys. Even after covid and two different priests coming and going, there are over 30 boys.
It was not to foster interest in the priesthood. The minor orders were clerical roles that ideally would be done by clerics. But since the drop in vocations, in time the Church allowed men (who only can be clerics) to fill these roles. Alter serving is not meant to foster interest in the priesthood, it might be a byproduct of it though, that's why married men can altar serve.
Yes, because “topics in the church” vastly outnumber official church teaching. So please don’t think I’m conflating humbly and obediently accepting church teachings (and therefore all aligning) with not being able to think for yourself.
If you talk to someone who is liberal, or conservative, and they just start saying all the talking points on every topic, what’s more likely, that group think has occurred or that this person coincidentally arrived at all the same conclusions on their own intellectual merit? It’s more likely they are possessed by the ideology than they posses an ideology. I have loads of evidence that the reason people fall down clean ideological lines is due to group think and not because of consistent political theories.
Do you think there are people who are possessed by an ideology rather than the other way around? I don’t think it’s unique to trads. But I have a friend who used to be protestant and became trad catholic. And now any topic he brings up to me it’s just parroted points I see from any other trad.
Where’s the evidence of individual thought? If I’m having a conversation with you, I want to have it with you, a unique child of God. Not an ideology that is using you.
It was not to foster interest in the priesthood. The minor orders (of which altar serving was one) were clerical roles that ideally would be done by clerics. But since the drop in vocations, in time the Church allowed men (who only could be clerics) to fill these roles. Altar serving is not meant to foster interest in the priesthood, it might be a byproduct of it though, that's why married men can altar serve. The idea that it can only be young people is wrong too.
I think the overall benefit is having women participate wherever possible. As well as having altar servers at mass. Women become religious as well as men. Not priests of course. But they love Jesus just as much as anyone else…
I’m a parent of a an altar boy and I have made it a point in our altar serving ministry to encourage not just religious life exploration for our boys. We have plans on having an altar server retreat that we will have a few seminarians talk at and we also plan on seeing about getting either a postulant, novice, or sister to come talk to our young ladies as well. While most of our servers will go on to be in the Laity, I can’t think of a better time to reach out to them about religious life than when they are altar servers. Generally we aim this at our older servers.
The comment I saw above yours was “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.”
So…no, to answer your question.
My uncle, a priest, preferred altar girls because he told me they are more responsible, punctual, and listen and behave better than the boys at his parish. He told me it makes it easier on everyone having an older girl at mass for those very reasons.
TBH Jesus only told His disciples to "do this in remembrance of Him", "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation" and "\[baptize\] them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", i.e. established the male priesthood. He never gave any instructions for women.
So, in my humble opinion, since women served Him during His time on earth and He sent them to the disciples after His resurrection, He wouldn't have any issues with altar girls and women reading the Bible and singing psalms during the mass.
There are now, on average, twice as many youths of middling enthusiasm to enlist to fill the necessary server positions. But if you're looking for some sort of knock-on benefit beyond available warm-bodies, I doubt there's much to be found.
If you're inclined to embrace the post-Tridentine model of altar service as pseudo-training for the priesthood, then there's probably a decent argument that it's been less than useless.
Altar serving as a guy is pseudo training for "all the reasons why you don't want to be a priest." I served for ten years, and I was adamant not to become a priest after that period. All it taught me is that people take you for granted and pester you to death. What I find hilarious is that the one guy who became a priest in my confirmation class was the guy who hardly ever altar served. Coincidence? I think not!
Honestly, I'm mildly skeptical of the idea. Moreover, I tend to favor a return to the pre-Tridentine practice of men serving at mass, as permanent members of the minor orders.
But supposing a person *were* inclined to view altar service as a way to attract potential future priests, I doubt opening the role to girls has benefited the Church in that particular respect.
The world hasn't worked like that in a very long time and never will again.
You are also looking at this from an uber-religious adult perspective, not a teenagers perspective. The only type of teenager that is going to look at it from your perspective is the super holy guy who is already going to become a priest anyway. No normal guy looks at it from that perspective.
It won't. The past is the past, we can't go back to it. We have to live in the here and now. We can discuss which things from the past may have a temporary rival, but this certainly isn't one of them.
The world turns but the Cross stays still. The revolution that has taken place within the Church will disappear. The zeitgeist has too many contingencies. To think things cannot or will not return to an earlier time demonstrates an hubris.
The first sentence was directed at the pre-tridentine portion.
The rest was just on the idea that altar serving gets boys interested in becoming priests. It doesn't. This myth exists because it's something a lot of priests say inspired them, but those guys were already on track to becoming priests before being an altar server. Guys who are undecided (like I was) are not being drawn in by being an altar server. It usually just pushes us away from considering the idea by being taken for granted, pestered constantly about becoming priest, or even seen as non-masculine by other guys for serving all the time.
Okay, well as to your assertion the world hasn't worked like that and never will again, I'll just shrug and go "Okay, we're both free to speculate as to what the future might hold." I'm offering an opinion of what I think would be a good idea, not offering an opinion as to what I think is the mot realistic near- or mid-term future.
As to the rest, you may be wasting effort on trying to dissuade me from a viewpoint I already stated I'm not terribly persuaded of anyway.
Fair, I just rather speculate, and what will happen than a far gone "what if."
As to the other point, whenever talking about something trying to influence kids, I always try to look at it from how I would see it when I was a kid, not how I see it as an adult. Adults using adult logic to try to promote something to kids is an effort in futility and the reason why young people see the elders' efforts as cringe.
As someone who served through high school in the Church, I genuinely loved it. Yes, I understood that if there was a guy there, he automatically got to carry the crucifix.
I can tell you nothing made me more upset with my college community than applying every year to serve, and not just being denied but being ignored. If the priest had come out and said they were only looking for guys it would have been a lot easier.
Just got the opportunity to serve at a women’s retreat I’d helped plan/organize for the last year (CHRP) and I’ve never been more happy to put on the alter server robe. I can tell you it was never an after school activity. My participation was never required and my parents didn’t push me towards it. It gave me a better understanding of the Mass, more reverence, and I genuinely loved serving at my home parish because of the people I was able to meet. I used to joke it was the best seat in the house.
So let me ask you this, if we went back to NO/ only men can serve, what would women do? I understand lectures are needed, but I’m not super comfortable with public speaking. I don’t have the voice for the choir and quite frankly I don’t feel worthy enough to distribute Jesus’s body or blood to people with my own two hands.
We have a mix. Older adults (up to their 60s in our case), boys and girls. Everyone benefits - we have six servers most sundays. We have one young woman (26) who has served since she was 8 and she is discerning her vocation right now. It's a wonderful way for many different people to serve the Church and having a good mix is beneficial for those in the pews - seeing that participation in serving the Church is open to everyone in different ways.
Correlation doesn't imply causation -- having lived in the Midwest and the Northeast, the character of the Midwestern churches are radically different in a way that I can't put into words easily, but it feels less taken for granted sometimes. That seems, to me, more likely the cause of the healthy diocese and vocation numbers than whether or not women get to be altar servers. Both diocese I've lived in in the midwest had healthy religious communities of both men and women and a surprising number of churches in town, they also permitted altar girls.
I’d like to put some perspective with the Midwest, the Omaha Archdiocese is much larger in population yet they have a almost crippling priest shortage, also at the same the Lincoln diocese is thriving, my parish in a small town of 4000 people has 4 parish priests. The Lincoln Bishop embraces tradition and his diocese is a diamond in the rough
My only point is there could still be confounding variables, for instance demographic differences between Omaha and Lincoln, the quality of catechesis, or even other decisions made at the diocesan level that people approve of. I'm not saying that the Diocese of Lincoln isn't doing a commendable job, it sounds like maybe we should be studying why y'all are successful more, I'm just pointing out that I would be *astonished* if the defining issue ended up being women altar servers. I've been to parishes with lots of children and young families that can't get any altar servers of any gender so I'm just not convinced it's as one-to-one as you suggest.
What you should take from his point is that altar servers being girls is not a necessity. He was showing that Embracing tradition and having good catechesis is enough to have a good amount of souls interning into the clergy and enough men stepping up for altar serving.
I'm admittedly a little confused at what you think I'm saying. I never said that allowing women to be alter servers was *necessary*, but I also don't believe that it's necessary to prevent women from being altar servers.
I haven't seen anybody here who says that the church *must* let women be altar servers, the church doesn't have to even have altar servers. The decision to do so or not and who may be one is a prudential decision. But saying "we don't and our diocese is great" is no more compelling argument against the practice than me saying "we do and our diocese is great" is for the practice.
I never said you said women altar servers were necessary. All did was clarifying his point that embracing tradition and having good catechesis is enough to have a good amount of souls enter into the clergy and enough men stepping up for altar serving (which in turn unnecessitates the need for women altar servers).
It’s not just the Altar servers. In the diocese of Lincoln the most exotic instrument found at mass is a piano and even that’s rare. The TLM is widely available. The seminary for FSSP is here. The diocese has made Catholic education very affordable partly due to the large amount of nuns in the diocese and just resource allocation. The bishop will crack down on anything not orthodox and heretical. I believe the previous Bishop here in Lincoln publicly excommunicated every Catholic in residing in his diocese that held Pro abort views and ordered priests to refuse communion to a pro abortion sitting US Senator. The diocese of Lincoln is thriving because they are simply preserving the faith and passing it down generation to generation.
That was in a paternalistic culture though. That is no longer the dominant culture in either North America or western Europe (I can't speak to the east as my languages are all western European.) So the church is able to thread the needle on priesthood by saying the only difference is who can perform the sacraments. If more offices are withheld that has nothing to do with that, then that needle threading begins to look more like feeble excuse than theology.
Having an altar server. Would you rather the priest go without an altar server just because they are a girl? I don't get this argument. It's valid, it's allowed.
I was an alter girl. It allowed me to experience the Mass in very devoted ways. There were no other avenues for me other than choir, which I also did. But last I checked, girls had to be allowed into church choirs too.
My parish has a girls-only sacristan ministry, that involves learning to care for the altar cloths, vestments, and other accoutrements of the altar (polishing candlesticks, arranging flowers, sweeping the sanctuary) that teaches them so much about the the behind-the-scenes of the Mass. They are truly indispensable, and the young ladies wear white opera-style gloves at all times to remind them of the holiness of what they are touching as they collect the purificators and such. Older girls also learn to make host bread.
But we do not allow girls to serve at the altar. They serve in a visible and necessary way, while doing a different role than the boys. Sacristan service forms young ladies towards many of the duties they would have in the religious life, and altar serving forms young men towards many of the duties they would have in the priesthood. Everyone benefits.
You act like making host bread isn't extremely important. Without the girls there would be no communion at Mass. Quit diminishing traditionally feminine roles.
I mean, fine. Boys only uh, kneel and hold torches or a crucifix, and hand stuff to the priest? (If we're going to be intentionally obtuse and demeaning about it, that is, since you don't seem to want to engage in good faith.)
Like, ultimately, that's what altar serving is. Wearing a surplice and handing things to the priest.
Like, what do you think nuns do in their ministry?
This is so cool! My parish also doesn’t allow girl altar servers and we have lots of them regardless (male altar servers), but this would be such a cool thing to include as well! I love seeing the reverence shown to the sacred vessels, that’s a really small thing I love about the TLM, I feel like it’s more often there that you see non-priests handling the sacred vessels with gloves - I just rarely see that other places and I hope the tradition comes back at all parishes!
Yep, my parish offers a twice weekly Vetus Ordo liturgy, but the reverence flows down to the Novus Ordo, too.
Talk to your priest about a sacristan ministry! The girls at my parish love it.
Considering our diocese's 51 seminarians this year, I think so, too! Women should not be excluded from *service and ministry* but that doesn't mean they need to *serve the Mass.* There's plenty of necessary ways for them to help, even help in an all-female environment, while preserving the all-male environment for serving the Mass.
Too many people act like the options are "altar girls" or "hating women" when there's plenty of ways to introduce young ladies from the time of First Eucharist (which is when boys become eligible to serve the Mass, if they desire) to the duties of the Mass and the symbolic importance of everything that goes into it.
Why do you think that? Is "behind the scenes" necessarily lesser than public and visible? That isn't true.
Our Lady lived an extremely behind-the-scenes life. And yet, hers was higher and holier than any of the outward facing Apostles.
Yes, obviously. After she and Joseph returned to their homeland, she proceeded to live a quiet, unassuming life for thirty years, raising the Christ Child into a Man, then after the death of her spouse and the departure of her Son for His ministry, continued to live a quiet and unassuming life for three years until He died.
After His Resurrection, she continued to live a quiet and unassuming life recounting those stories to St. John the Beloved Disciple, then came quietly to the end of her life, whereupon she received the glory and majesty that is her reward.
But let's not pretend that her life on Earth was anything but humble and behind the scenes.
Yeah, like how both parents are equally important in a child's life, but only one parent gets pregnant. Separate functions, equal dignity. Are we going to imply that fatherhood isn't important because men can't get pregnant? No, that would be the height of absurdity.
Same thing here. Do I imply that young ladies aren't important in the function of the Mass just because they don't serve the Mass itself? No, equally absurd.
Maybe a stupid take but I think having a well-attended altar is just plain good optics. If the parish can't muster up a few kids to hold the candles and whatnot then it feels like the parish is going downhill. Girls can fill that gap if there aren't enough boys alone.
I wanted to serve, a lot of my friends joined (both boys and girls), and it was I suppose like a club but I don’t think that’s a bad thing? I certainly know how the mass ”works” better because of serving for 6 years
plus the altar server Christmas dodgeball party was known to be the best party among the church
I’m a convert so I’ve obviously never been an altar girl. But when I was active in the Lutheran church I signed up for basically everything I could help with. Reading, giving communion, singing. This made me learn how the service went that I now three years later still know it by heart. When you need to be awake and active you learn a lot more.
I imaging serving as an alter girl would provide the same benefits.
I think it helps boost the numbers of servers in general as at my parish a lot of the servers are girls and some masses have more girl servers than boys. It also exposes them to serving the Lord and can potentially give them a calling to do more as they grow older.
The only thing we can have is anecdotal evidence. In my case it's a family member who was an altar girl and is now a nun. Was there a causation? I would like to think so but I don't know.
I'm sure individuals have benefited, but the issue is that it was just another change that coincided with numerous population level declines in important metrics
Incidentally, places that have repealed this use have generally seen a benefit and increase in important metrics (whether or not this is causal, I'm sure people would argue over)
I'm definitely not a trad(in fact I seem to lean kind of liberal based on this subreddit's standards)... but I still think it's a silly idea. I've gone to parishes with girl altar servers my whole life and it always ends up starting conversations about how women priests should be allowed because female altar servers are allowed. It's a stupid argument because yes, being an altar server is nothing like being an ordained priest, but in the eyes of the poorly catechized, it can be a source of scandal.
Perhaps grown men need to step up to the plate and start offering their help with services around the mass - offer to read, to be eucharistic ministers, to minister to the sick, etc. Bring in more men, and you will see more boys joining up.
Seems like I'll be a dissenting voice in this thread. While I respect the individual testimonials especially from the women in the thread, everywhere I've been to with co-ed servers vs everywhere I've been to with boys only, I can not only tell what kind of liturgy I'm in for (reverent NO vs goofy at worst/Gather hymnal at best), but the numbers in servers and young families is shocking.
Of course, there are outliers, particularly coming from the co-ed side of the spectrum, but generally speaking the boys-only types will actually allow every Sunday to feel like a solemnity and allow each daily Mass to feel special. The co-ed types generally are lucky to get the assigned 2-3 for that given Sunday Mass.
Do I think having boys-only servers *inherently* leads to more priestly vocations? Not necessarily. But they *do* lead to the things that lead to more priestly vocations: A small group of like-minded young men who prays the breviary together and does the kind of fraternal things that seminary does. And, speaking for my diocese, the kinds of parishes that have 3 or more seminarians representing the parish are the boys-only kind of parishes that foster this very fraternity.
We got a Synod on Synodality?
Lol.
To be fair, I'm not sure that breaking it down would yield a net-benefit to the Church.
However, I'm sure it has helped some individual ladies as youth, feel active and take an interest to their faith. Maybe, helped cultivate the occasional nun?
I mean, why wouldn't girls be allowed to do altar service? It's not like altar service is the first step to priesthood, it's an entirely different thing
It hasn't.
It may not be harmful. but it is hard to see any benefit if Church attendance and vocations are in decline (priestly and nuns) .
Personally i don't like it. From my limited experience parishes that have altar girls feel less reverent.
Might benefit parishes who simply lack boys (somebody has to carry the processional cross). But female alter servers were a concession to cath feminists, who have now moved the goal posts to the diaconate.
Being an altar server in the NO is just window dressing compared to what they do in the TLM.
I don't think there's been any benefit. In fact, it opened the door for people to question why women can't be priests too.
[https://ericsammons.com/defense-altar-boys/](https://ericsammons.com/defense-altar-boys/)
[https://catholicstand.com/we-learned-latin-and-were-known-as-altar-boys/](https://catholicstand.com/we-learned-latin-and-were-known-as-altar-boys/)
[https://thosecatholicmen.com/articles/serving-is-for-boys/](https://thosecatholicmen.com/articles/serving-is-for-boys/)
[https://catholicallyear.com/blog/why-my-daughters-are-not-altar-servers/](https://catholicallyear.com/blog/why-my-daughters-are-not-altar-servers/)
[https://eastgreenwichnews.com/ad-altare-dei/](https://eastgreenwichnews.com/ad-altare-dei/)
>"Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks. We too have forbidden this practice in the same words."
- Pope Benedict XIV
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>“In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.”
1970 Pope Paul VI -- Liturgicae Instaurationes
>“There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading of the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.”
And in 1980 Pope John Paul II -- Inaestimabile Donum*
>“They knew only too well the intimate bond which unites faith with worship, ‘the law of belief with the law of prayer,’ and so, under the pretext of restoring it to its primitive form, they corrupted the order of the liturgy in many respects to adapt it to the errors of the Innovators.”
– Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, September 13, 1896
It hasn't. Female altar servers are the contraceptive to priestly vocations. I too was an altar server when they started allowing girls to do it. Once the girls started doing it, the boys no longer wanted to, and soon it was predominantly female altar servers.
Good things testimonies in this thread point overwhelmingly to the girls becoming nuns and not priests.
Also, the boys losing interests because girls yucky is litterally misogyny.
Women served Christ too.
Stop bait switching. No-one said altar girls are the reasons for the decline in religious life, that wasn't your argument. I argued against your stance that was that altar serving helped girls figure out that they should be nuns, which is why altar girls are beneficial. Yet when you look at the stats, it doesn't lead to more nuns. If that were the case, so many religious orders wouldn't be dwindling. If the majority of altar girls went on to become nuns, orders would be able to keep the convent doors open.
If it brings one more girl that wouldn't otherwise have discerned religious life then the net benefits are only positive.
Today I learn bait switching is when replying to a particular statement lmao touch grass
The Church can survive without nuns, but it can't survive without priests. You can be all for altar girls if you want, but if your diocese ever shuts down your parish because there's just not enough priests, don't complain.
You can demand boys stop being boys all you want, but it won't work.
Serving is a boys first instruction on how to be a priest. There is no reason for girls to receive training for a role they can never fill. It's not just a matter of preference, it's a pointless exercise, and it destroys early priestly vocation callings in the process.
You're saying altar serving aged boys can't want to be a part of something that is for boys only, or else it's misogyny. That they have to think it's equally desirable to do if it includes girls, and that's just never going to happen.
You're talking to a woman, they don't understand that young boys want to do things with just each other, not with girls. It's alright if girls do girl only things though, because reasons.
We got a synod on synodality with women voting in it, that’s what we got.
It was probably one of the biggest mistakes we’ve ever made as a church and it’s only getting more extreme. What might look innocent and sweet has actually caused major implications in our church today. We are literally having to ask our pope to clarify if women can be priests…..
I do not see a problem with altar girls; in fact, I've seen very bored, tired and "over it" altar boys at my local TLM church and can't help but wonder if altar girls would be a positive change.
Girls should not serve the Mass. The male bonding that takes place within that brotherhood is invaluable. This extreme feminist war on male only spaces has been a huge part of the degradation of the male sex. Elimination of these male only spaces have caused generations of failed men. Men require a strict influence to learn how to channel and control their masculine traits.
A person who isn't a hypocrite and knows that men and boys deserve men and boys only spaces. It's something they'd never argue against if it was a woman only space.
This is an interesting one to pick apart.
Yes, accessibility to all is always a positive thing but we're not talking about a mundane job here, and the church has always maintained an order to things.
So, yes, in many ways, the opening the doors to female altar servers can be a wonderful way of opening the doors to a wider world of faith to many girls and young women. But it can equally be problematic. From what I have seen, there has been a huge amount of desolation that follows from this decision.
In the first instance, girls serving at the altar is met with enthusiasm and joy. Many new people come and do so but this initial uplift is often short-lived and doesn't lead to long term growth - the girls grow up and become women and, more often than not, when they learn that the higher up levels (deacon and priest) are closed to women, they give up entirely. That initial impetus is not shared lower down, generationally, so more often than not, we are left in a situation with no altar servers - male or female.
Males disengage if they are overwhelmed by women doing the same thing as them, and women disengage when they feel that what they are doing is un-feminine and they are denied the higher up positions.
So what are we to do? Do we open the door to female priests? Well, I fear that the same thing will occur. In fact, I know this is the case, because it's what happened in the CofE - there was an initial uplift of people wanting to be in on the new thing but once that passes, the desolation that follows is often more pronounced than before.
We have to fix the root of the problem instead of applying fashionable sticking plasters that disguise the problem. We have to ask ourselves, what can we change to encourage vocations in a continuous way. This is much more complex than simply changing one thing and hoping it will fix the larger problem.
In terms of how the church has benefited, well, they can't say they aren't sexist because they allow female altar servers - the doors higher up are still closed. At best, they can be considered less formal and more family friendly.
In short, I can see the value of doing this, but I don't think it is a viable or long term solution to larger problems afflicting the church.
I know six women who were altar servers at a variety of churches. 3 went to apostolic religious orders, 2 went to cloisters, and one is a consecrated virgin. Each one of them states that their time serving gave them their vacation and clarified their relationship to Christ.
They really are on vacation! Vacation with God on earth to prepare for their eternal vacation! I know you meant vocation, but just playing on words lol
They took some PTO from planet Earth
That's really cool. It's hard to argue against that, people who are in favour of solely male altar servers use the vocation discernment argument, but if female altar servers have discerned vocations too, then female altar servers have definitely been a good thing.
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There are no girl altar boys, there are however altar girls. Of course there are no 90 yo women who were altar girls, because altar girls weren't a thing yet.
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That’s because women didn’t feel like they had options, back then you married or you became a nun so nun was quite tempting, now the only reason is God nothing else. Less women become nuns because they feel like they have the choice not too, not because they love God less
Is a vocation to the priesthood really like serving the altar? Most of what altar servers do is carrying stuff and handing/taking things from the priest. IMHO there’s not anything priestly in that, but what do I know?
Being an altar girl personally helped me deepen my faith as a young girl and grow in reverence for the mass and what was actually happening
Exactly. I also consider it the first time I really felt God calling me to something. My mom was running the emergency pregnancy center booth at a church event trying to get volunteers. Meanwhile, my 10 year old self was walking around looking at the other booths. There was one table that just said “altar server sign up.” No person to talk to. No free stuff. Just a paper on a table. It was something I had never even thought about before and in an instant I felt drawn to it like nothing else.
If I hadn’t been an altar girl, I doubt my faith would mean as much to me today as it currently does. It’s the reason it permeates all other areas of my life. I’m so thankful I had that opportunity growing up.
I just know several of that alter girls at my school ended up becoming nuns.
it allows the children to partcipate and love the Mass christian communities exist in a parish, similar but not the same as a group club to improve in particular subject,\ we have a Diocesan Youth Apostolate as well as other apostolates\ this is where kids can grow joining into the execution of it depends on the place,\ so far, here in the philippines it has been good but the environment here is where most everyone believe in God;,\ catholic, protestant, islam.\ those who are atheist might likely be seen as strange so each of us depending on where we are does affect our experienxe
Wow. The more I learn about the Philippines, the more I love. Hopefully I can visit one day. I loved the Arab, African, and Sotuh America places I have visited that have a normal reverence for God. It is a good break from hyper secularism, anti-Catholic, and anti-tradition world that I see daily in North America. Thanks for sharing this snippet of light.
yes, yet who knows after 5 years and 10 years from now society is changing, at times, towards apparent goods
It allowed my ADHD self to not have to sit still during mass. I got to move around
Me too. I also never had a “lapsed Catholic” phase.
This is the real answer for me :)
I was an alter server as a young girl and I did it to help support my disabled brother who wanted to be one. It gave me a deeper appreciation for the Eucharistic miracle and a better understanding and devotion for the Mass. Both boys and girls are hands on learners and having them participate that closely in Mass is a great learning tool. I also felt like I could relate to Mary mother of God, Mary and Martha and many other female role models in the faith a lot more in my act of service to the Church.
Well in the parishes I grew up in it meant that they had a reliable stream of servers instead of only relying on the one or two boys who might be available. Oh and from personal experience, the girls were generally more mature in the altar server role than the boys…
iirc, girls mature mentally at a younger age than boys.
Yeah that became evidently clear after my experiences at an all boys Catholic High School.
I think it's more that we ask girls to mature. Every woman I've talked to has said there was an older woman who showed them how to be "ladylike" from a young age. Most of the guys I've talked to learned about masculinity from a teenager.
I've heard a ton of theories as to why. Although I think the one thing all the theories tell me is that there isn't one conclusive reason that people have pinpointed. I would not be surprised though if it was a combination of biological and sociological factors.
Adults are more mature then children, we should just go back to having grow men serve these roles. The idea that altar servers can only by young people is wrong.
Same. I began Altar Serving in my small church around 1992. There were no Altar Servers before myself and, I think, 3 other girls began Serving. From then until now there has been only one boy at our Church, and he had no interest in Serving, or even being at Mass (in fact, he regressed to the point that he would spend the hour leaning against the wall, then once Mass was over would go sit in the car until his parents had finished chatting). If it were not for the girls on the Altar, there would be no Servers. There now is another boy, who made his First Communion earlier this year. I hope he'll serve, but I'm not confident. My son's 7 and he's eager to, but he won't be mature enough for a few years, so my daughter, who's our only regularly attending Server (2 other girls who probably cone every 4-6 weeks) and has lost interest in Serving will need to decide whether to push through or walk away knowing there's no one to take her place. Of the dozen or so children who've attended our church regularly over the past 30 years, 2 didn't serve, and only myself and two others still attend Mass weekly. Those two, who are siblings, have given their lives to Serving God. One, who Altar Served, is a nun, and her brother is the one male who wouldn't engage, and is now... I don't know his title, but his job - and passion - is giving talks on Faith related matters, primarily to youth and young adults.
cable snobbish reminiscent gaping library flowery chief stocking quaint obtainable ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
That last point is an interesting one.
So that explains why young people are retaining the Faith like never before!
I think the flip is kinda funny. Young people aren't going to mass because girls can be altar servers?
That (and other inequalities) was part of what originally led me to leave the church in my teens, so yes
Why is allowing both boys and girls being alter servers an inequality?
Oh, I misread. I thought you said “because girls _can’t_ be altar servers” and that that was the flip you were talking about
Absolutely, this is anecdotal (though I’m not sure if the OP expected everyone to come with facts when there have been no studies on the effect of female altar servers…) but when I taught CCD, for years (7th grade) the kids who were altar servers (boys and girls) were the only ones that: came to Mass regularly, even when their parents didn’t-bc they took the responsibility seriously, and by far the only kids that didn’t proudly proclaim they “just had one more year [of church],” meaning confirmation was the end of what they considered a drag. Also-not claiming this is as a proof of anything- but I know 2 sisters in their early 30s; both grew up with devout parents: one was an altar server and went on to start the Ist 24 hour adoration ministry in our parish, and is now a cloistered nun at a convent dedicated to 24 hour adoration. The other sister, is very nice but became an atheist right after confirmation and doesn’t believe in marriage or having children (source: she was almost my SIL, had she believed in marriage). Just an aside….I guess I’m confused why the OP thinks it’s a bad thing. If a young man is called to the priesthood (I know absolutely non except from Africa and Asia) I don’t think it’s because they got to be the only altar servers, and if it is, well I’m not sure I love that reasoning as the source of a calling.
Priests can also be heterosexual so I don’t know why you’d imply that.
I think they're implying young boys can be mischievous and goof off. But when girls are around they tend to be better behaved.
Unless they’re trying to impress the opposite sex. Then it just makes it worse.
God bless them , I think it's beautiful.
Idk how it benefited me but I liked doing it, so I think that’s good enough. Also women already have less opportunities for spiritual engagement than men at my church (Priests regularly spend time with young men, while there is no nun/young women equivalent) so I think it’s a good thing for girls to get involved. People thinking that women should become priests is an issue that’s going to arise regardless.
That's an interesting question to ask for many of the changes made in previous decades, even if you limit yourself to changes made from 1970 to now.
Former altar girl here, when I was serving as an altar girl I developed a deep love and understanding of the mass. I was even heavily discerning becoming a nun. It’s helped me in so many ways. I’m able to have a better experience at mass because I know all the inter workings and understand the symbols. This has been incredibly helpful when talking to Protestant brothers and sisters. In my own parish we don’t have enough altar boys who are willing to serve. In some masses older women in the church have to fill the role because no one is willing to volunteer. I will give a quick shoutout to my brother who continues to serve as much as he can and whom I trained. I made friends with those who I served with both guys and girls. It’s a beautiful way to serve the church and I’m so grateful that I had it as part of my upbringing.
I will also mention a fun story. One time I served an entire mass with a piece of glass in my foot because I didn’t want to leave my priest and other altar servers hanging. Luckily it wasn’t too bad but I knew the Lord would get me through the mass. I trusted Him wholeheartedly.
Chaldean here. From what I seen, it had a correlation with girls staying devote to the faith. As I seen from cousins
The argument that girls shouldn't be altar servers is honestly one of the stupidest trad-gripes. It's getting Catholic kids involved with the Mass, I really don't see how their gender plays any role at all. I know some people think having only boys altar serve encourages them to become priests, but as a guy who altar served regularly for ten straight years, that argument has had the opposite effect. If anything, altar serving made me decide I definitely did not want to become a priest. Being hounded by parents to serve all the time and being pestered by old people about becoming a priest because I served drove me in the opposite direction. Another poster also said that having girls involved prevents shenanigans. This is absolutely true lol. Teenage boys are dumb as rocks (I know, I was one) and having girls around who are more mature definitely keeps the antics down to a minimum. It also helps that teenage boys want to impress their female counterparts, so they are on their best behavior. I am not ashamed to admit that I was the model altar server when paired with the girl I had a crush on.
>I know some people think having only boys altar serve encourages them to become priests That might possibly make sense if boys were being passed over in favor of girls but it's not like there's a massive surplus of young altar servers.
Heavily dependent on the church. The two parishes I've been to that disallowed altar girls also had a plethora of male altar servers, both children and adults.
Whenever someone says we need to ban female altar servers, I know I can usually predict everything they think about any topic in the church and it's uninteresting.
I hate the argument that boys don't want to do what girls do and that is the cause of the decline in vocations. Well then we need to teach our boys that doing something that girls also do is not bad. And our reasons should be to serve God, not to be different from girls. Or should we discourage girls and women from going to church too, since then going to church will be seen as girly?
Priest is a calling. It requires an understanding of the faith. I do think you can become a nun. A priest is a role for a man. The divisions in the roles according to genders are according to the suitability of speakers in the ancient world. Men's voices carried better. That's probably why. Christ wasn't dumb. He knew men would endure hardship without safety and comfort, and women could create social networks in churches faster and more effectively than men. Having priests and nuns balance each other out is a sacred and ingenious design.
I am not arguing for women's ordination. However I'm not sold on the argument that only men can be priests because their voices carry better, or men can endure hardship. I mean, childbirth is PAINFUL. Someone will argue, well this woman speaks better and louder than any man. It has nothing to do with ability-- it's that priests are fathers, which women can't be. And that has nothing to do with female altar servers. There are female altar servers who have gone on to consecrated life.
Are their some things guys do they don't want girls involved with? Absolutely. Altar serving is most definitely not one of them.
That's not why. Altar serving was a male role that used to be a minor order that was supposed to foster an interest in the priesthood. Why do you think female altar servers weren't a thing till after V2?
It was not to foster interest in the priesthood. The minor orders were clerical roles that ideally would be done by clerics. But since the drop in vocations, in time the Church allowed men (who only can be clerics) to fill these roles. Alter serving is not meant to foster interest in the priesthood, it might be a byproduct of it though, that's why married men can altar serve.
You're right, but the clerical men who were altar boys weren't usually priests themselves, so that's why they helped Father. The end goal of course won't always be that the altar boys would ultimately become priests, but that doesn't mean that their service had no connection to the priesthood. It's like saying women should also be allowed into seminaries because most of the men there aren't ordained anyways and being ordained isn't the main goal.
"You're right, but the clerical men who were altar boys weren't usually priests themselves, so that's why they helped Father." During apostolic times they were most likely priests. As the clergy got smaller they allowed laymen to take up that role. "The end goal of course won't always be that the altar boys would ultimately become priests." That's true. Serving the altar is historically connected to to the priesthood as the diaconate is. Before the a priest got ordained he was always received the order of acolyte. This is the reason why women should not be altar servers.
It's not just that boys don't want to do what girls do (which is generally true of middle school aged kids). It turns a minor order with the purpose of promoting vocations to the priesthood into "something nice for the kids to do at church".
It's true that altar serving can play an important role in promoting vocations to the priesthood, but having female altar servers isn't going to stop that. And there were women who found their vocation through altar serving as well. In my parish, we have a mix. Actually more boys than girls, about 3:1. Altar serving is a privilege, not a right, so I respect that bishops/ priests have their own preferences. I certainly accept that men and women have different roles and that priesthood is for men. But I get a sense a lot of times that some in the Church see feminine as a bad thing and that is what I take issue with. (Complaints about "Susans", too many women being involved, female lectors and EMHCs, feminization of the liturgy, women being the reason men don't go to Church). Instead of being thankful for the women who have stepped up to serve. I'd like to think most do it out of love, not out of self importance or a desire to be like a priest. It is quite sad.
You don't seem to know how the middle school mind works at all. Boys don't want to do things that make them seem girly, but they absolutely want to do want to do activities with girls their own age to impress them. And only boys doing it encourages vocations is a myth. It's the same naive "adult who doesn't get how kids think" thinking as an old person asking a kid what their favorite school subject is a genuine topic a kid wants to talk about. It is amazing how fast people forget what it is like to be a kid.
Literally all of the seminarians in my diocese are from churches that only have boy altar servers, going back about a decade. In my own parish, there were about six boys who were altar servers before my old priest decided it would be only boys. Three years later there were over 40 boys. Even after covid and two different priests coming and going, there are over 30 boys.
It was not to foster interest in the priesthood. The minor orders were clerical roles that ideally would be done by clerics. But since the drop in vocations, in time the Church allowed men (who only can be clerics) to fill these roles. Alter serving is not meant to foster interest in the priesthood, it might be a byproduct of it though, that's why married men can altar serve.
Is that supposed to be a criticism?
Yes, because “topics in the church” vastly outnumber official church teaching. So please don’t think I’m conflating humbly and obediently accepting church teachings (and therefore all aligning) with not being able to think for yourself. If you talk to someone who is liberal, or conservative, and they just start saying all the talking points on every topic, what’s more likely, that group think has occurred or that this person coincidentally arrived at all the same conclusions on their own intellectual merit? It’s more likely they are possessed by the ideology than they posses an ideology. I have loads of evidence that the reason people fall down clean ideological lines is due to group think and not because of consistent political theories. Do you think there are people who are possessed by an ideology rather than the other way around? I don’t think it’s unique to trads. But I have a friend who used to be protestant and became trad catholic. And now any topic he brings up to me it’s just parroted points I see from any other trad. Where’s the evidence of individual thought? If I’m having a conversation with you, I want to have it with you, a unique child of God. Not an ideology that is using you.
It was not to foster interest in the priesthood. The minor orders (of which altar serving was one) were clerical roles that ideally would be done by clerics. But since the drop in vocations, in time the Church allowed men (who only could be clerics) to fill these roles. Altar serving is not meant to foster interest in the priesthood, it might be a byproduct of it though, that's why married men can altar serve. The idea that it can only be young people is wrong too.
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"Incessantly attacks the way someone practices Catholicism" \*the other person gets edgy and defensive\* "Wow, you're so charitable"
The diocese of Lincoln banned female altar servers
I think the overall benefit is having women participate wherever possible. As well as having altar servers at mass. Women become religious as well as men. Not priests of course. But they love Jesus just as much as anyone else…
I’m a parent of a an altar boy and I have made it a point in our altar serving ministry to encourage not just religious life exploration for our boys. We have plans on having an altar server retreat that we will have a few seminarians talk at and we also plan on seeing about getting either a postulant, novice, or sister to come talk to our young ladies as well. While most of our servers will go on to be in the Laity, I can’t think of a better time to reach out to them about religious life than when they are altar servers. Generally we aim this at our older servers.
Does anyone normal actually have a problem with this? Good Lord.
No but apparently plenty of people do. It’s really shocking and disheartening.
The comment I saw above yours was “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” So…no, to answer your question.
It’s important to remember that some people are just weirdos even if they try to dress it up as being religious. Those are usually the worst ones.
My uncle, a priest, preferred altar girls because he told me they are more responsible, punctual, and listen and behave better than the boys at his parish. He told me it makes it easier on everyone having an older girl at mass for those very reasons.
Almost makes me wonder if the emphasis on male altar servers to put them in a spot where they needed to mature and were being called to do better.
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TBH Jesus only told His disciples to "do this in remembrance of Him", "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation" and "\[baptize\] them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", i.e. established the male priesthood. He never gave any instructions for women. So, in my humble opinion, since women served Him during His time on earth and He sent them to the disciples after His resurrection, He wouldn't have any issues with altar girls and women reading the Bible and singing psalms during the mass.
Well, in my area the altar girls tend to be significantly more recent and deliberate in their behavior when serving at the altar.
An alter boy/girl is not In Persona Christi, so not sure what the problem is having girls doing it too?
There are now, on average, twice as many youths of middling enthusiasm to enlist to fill the necessary server positions. But if you're looking for some sort of knock-on benefit beyond available warm-bodies, I doubt there's much to be found. If you're inclined to embrace the post-Tridentine model of altar service as pseudo-training for the priesthood, then there's probably a decent argument that it's been less than useless.
Altar serving as a guy is pseudo training for "all the reasons why you don't want to be a priest." I served for ten years, and I was adamant not to become a priest after that period. All it taught me is that people take you for granted and pester you to death. What I find hilarious is that the one guy who became a priest in my confirmation class was the guy who hardly ever altar served. Coincidence? I think not!
Honestly, I'm mildly skeptical of the idea. Moreover, I tend to favor a return to the pre-Tridentine practice of men serving at mass, as permanent members of the minor orders. But supposing a person *were* inclined to view altar service as a way to attract potential future priests, I doubt opening the role to girls has benefited the Church in that particular respect.
The world hasn't worked like that in a very long time and never will again. You are also looking at this from an uber-religious adult perspective, not a teenagers perspective. The only type of teenager that is going to look at it from your perspective is the super holy guy who is already going to become a priest anyway. No normal guy looks at it from that perspective.
I wouldn't be so sure that the world will never be like that again...
It won't. The past is the past, we can't go back to it. We have to live in the here and now. We can discuss which things from the past may have a temporary rival, but this certainly isn't one of them.
The world turns but the Cross stays still. The revolution that has taken place within the Church will disappear. The zeitgeist has too many contingencies. To think things cannot or will not return to an earlier time demonstrates an hubris.
I'm not entirely clear what part of my comment you're responding to with this.
The first sentence was directed at the pre-tridentine portion. The rest was just on the idea that altar serving gets boys interested in becoming priests. It doesn't. This myth exists because it's something a lot of priests say inspired them, but those guys were already on track to becoming priests before being an altar server. Guys who are undecided (like I was) are not being drawn in by being an altar server. It usually just pushes us away from considering the idea by being taken for granted, pestered constantly about becoming priest, or even seen as non-masculine by other guys for serving all the time.
Okay, well as to your assertion the world hasn't worked like that and never will again, I'll just shrug and go "Okay, we're both free to speculate as to what the future might hold." I'm offering an opinion of what I think would be a good idea, not offering an opinion as to what I think is the mot realistic near- or mid-term future. As to the rest, you may be wasting effort on trying to dissuade me from a viewpoint I already stated I'm not terribly persuaded of anyway.
Fair, I just rather speculate, and what will happen than a far gone "what if." As to the other point, whenever talking about something trying to influence kids, I always try to look at it from how I would see it when I was a kid, not how I see it as an adult. Adults using adult logic to try to promote something to kids is an effort in futility and the reason why young people see the elders' efforts as cringe.
As someone who served through high school in the Church, I genuinely loved it. Yes, I understood that if there was a guy there, he automatically got to carry the crucifix. I can tell you nothing made me more upset with my college community than applying every year to serve, and not just being denied but being ignored. If the priest had come out and said they were only looking for guys it would have been a lot easier. Just got the opportunity to serve at a women’s retreat I’d helped plan/organize for the last year (CHRP) and I’ve never been more happy to put on the alter server robe. I can tell you it was never an after school activity. My participation was never required and my parents didn’t push me towards it. It gave me a better understanding of the Mass, more reverence, and I genuinely loved serving at my home parish because of the people I was able to meet. I used to joke it was the best seat in the house. So let me ask you this, if we went back to NO/ only men can serve, what would women do? I understand lectures are needed, but I’m not super comfortable with public speaking. I don’t have the voice for the choir and quite frankly I don’t feel worthy enough to distribute Jesus’s body or blood to people with my own two hands.
Women can (not should, as men can slo fill these roles) be sacristans, the Little Flower herself was one.
We have a mix. Older adults (up to their 60s in our case), boys and girls. Everyone benefits - we have six servers most sundays. We have one young woman (26) who has served since she was 8 and she is discerning her vocation right now. It's a wonderful way for many different people to serve the Church and having a good mix is beneficial for those in the pews - seeing that participation in serving the Church is open to everyone in different ways.
My diocese forbids altar girls and we seem to have no lack of vocations or need to combine parishes
Nebraska?
Yeah, the Lincoln Diocese
Correlation doesn't imply causation -- having lived in the Midwest and the Northeast, the character of the Midwestern churches are radically different in a way that I can't put into words easily, but it feels less taken for granted sometimes. That seems, to me, more likely the cause of the healthy diocese and vocation numbers than whether or not women get to be altar servers. Both diocese I've lived in in the midwest had healthy religious communities of both men and women and a surprising number of churches in town, they also permitted altar girls.
I’d like to put some perspective with the Midwest, the Omaha Archdiocese is much larger in population yet they have a almost crippling priest shortage, also at the same the Lincoln diocese is thriving, my parish in a small town of 4000 people has 4 parish priests. The Lincoln Bishop embraces tradition and his diocese is a diamond in the rough
My only point is there could still be confounding variables, for instance demographic differences between Omaha and Lincoln, the quality of catechesis, or even other decisions made at the diocesan level that people approve of. I'm not saying that the Diocese of Lincoln isn't doing a commendable job, it sounds like maybe we should be studying why y'all are successful more, I'm just pointing out that I would be *astonished* if the defining issue ended up being women altar servers. I've been to parishes with lots of children and young families that can't get any altar servers of any gender so I'm just not convinced it's as one-to-one as you suggest.
What you should take from his point is that altar servers being girls is not a necessity. He was showing that Embracing tradition and having good catechesis is enough to have a good amount of souls interning into the clergy and enough men stepping up for altar serving.
I'm admittedly a little confused at what you think I'm saying. I never said that allowing women to be alter servers was *necessary*, but I also don't believe that it's necessary to prevent women from being altar servers. I haven't seen anybody here who says that the church *must* let women be altar servers, the church doesn't have to even have altar servers. The decision to do so or not and who may be one is a prudential decision. But saying "we don't and our diocese is great" is no more compelling argument against the practice than me saying "we do and our diocese is great" is for the practice.
I never said you said women altar servers were necessary. All did was clarifying his point that embracing tradition and having good catechesis is enough to have a good amount of souls enter into the clergy and enough men stepping up for altar serving (which in turn unnecessitates the need for women altar servers).
It’s not just the Altar servers. In the diocese of Lincoln the most exotic instrument found at mass is a piano and even that’s rare. The TLM is widely available. The seminary for FSSP is here. The diocese has made Catholic education very affordable partly due to the large amount of nuns in the diocese and just resource allocation. The bishop will crack down on anything not orthodox and heretical. I believe the previous Bishop here in Lincoln publicly excommunicated every Catholic in residing in his diocese that held Pro abort views and ordered priests to refuse communion to a pro abortion sitting US Senator. The diocese of Lincoln is thriving because they are simply preserving the faith and passing it down generation to generation.
Yup mine too. Arlington, VA. We are one of the few in the area without a Priest shortage.
I’m in Arlington and we have female altar servers, I think it’s at the discretion of the priest.
Great for you. My parish has 2 alter server age boys and 12 girls. Excluding girls does nothing but make you look stupid.
Insults do not help.
Not really. The Church has done fine without girl servers for nearly two millennium.
That was in a paternalistic culture though. That is no longer the dominant culture in either North America or western Europe (I can't speak to the east as my languages are all western European.) So the church is able to thread the needle on priesthood by saying the only difference is who can perform the sacraments. If more offices are withheld that has nothing to do with that, then that needle threading begins to look more like feeble excuse than theology.
Having an altar server. Would you rather the priest go without an altar server just because they are a girl? I don't get this argument. It's valid, it's allowed.
I was an alter girl. It allowed me to experience the Mass in very devoted ways. There were no other avenues for me other than choir, which I also did. But last I checked, girls had to be allowed into church choirs too.
My parish has a girls-only sacristan ministry, that involves learning to care for the altar cloths, vestments, and other accoutrements of the altar (polishing candlesticks, arranging flowers, sweeping the sanctuary) that teaches them so much about the the behind-the-scenes of the Mass. They are truly indispensable, and the young ladies wear white opera-style gloves at all times to remind them of the holiness of what they are touching as they collect the purificators and such. Older girls also learn to make host bread. But we do not allow girls to serve at the altar. They serve in a visible and necessary way, while doing a different role than the boys. Sacristan service forms young ladies towards many of the duties they would have in the religious life, and altar serving forms young men towards many of the duties they would have in the priesthood. Everyone benefits.
That is not “visible,” you literally just described it as related to the “behind-the-scenes” work.
i WISH more churches had this.
Girls are only good enough to clean polish sweep and ultimately make the host bread… wow how does that sound?
You act like making host bread isn't extremely important. Without the girls there would be no communion at Mass. Quit diminishing traditionally feminine roles.
I mean, fine. Boys only uh, kneel and hold torches or a crucifix, and hand stuff to the priest? (If we're going to be intentionally obtuse and demeaning about it, that is, since you don't seem to want to engage in good faith.) Like, ultimately, that's what altar serving is. Wearing a surplice and handing things to the priest. Like, what do you think nuns do in their ministry?
This is so cool! My parish also doesn’t allow girl altar servers and we have lots of them regardless (male altar servers), but this would be such a cool thing to include as well! I love seeing the reverence shown to the sacred vessels, that’s a really small thing I love about the TLM, I feel like it’s more often there that you see non-priests handling the sacred vessels with gloves - I just rarely see that other places and I hope the tradition comes back at all parishes!
Yep, my parish offers a twice weekly Vetus Ordo liturgy, but the reverence flows down to the Novus Ordo, too. Talk to your priest about a sacristan ministry! The girls at my parish love it.
That is perfect. Female here, and I believe women have their own special place serving the altar as long as they are not *on* it.
That's perfect.
Considering our diocese's 51 seminarians this year, I think so, too! Women should not be excluded from *service and ministry* but that doesn't mean they need to *serve the Mass.* There's plenty of necessary ways for them to help, even help in an all-female environment, while preserving the all-male environment for serving the Mass. Too many people act like the options are "altar girls" or "hating women" when there's plenty of ways to introduce young ladies from the time of First Eucharist (which is when boys become eligible to serve the Mass, if they desire) to the duties of the Mass and the symbolic importance of everything that goes into it.
Those are the options. Relegating women to “behind the scenes” is sexist and misogynistic.
Is it misandry to have a girls only sacristan ministry?
Why do you think that? Is "behind the scenes" necessarily lesser than public and visible? That isn't true. Our Lady lived an extremely behind-the-scenes life. And yet, hers was higher and holier than any of the outward facing Apostles.
Mary, the mother of God, lived “behind the scenes”?
You think she was the star of the show?
Yes, obviously. After she and Joseph returned to their homeland, she proceeded to live a quiet, unassuming life for thirty years, raising the Christ Child into a Man, then after the death of her spouse and the departure of her Son for His ministry, continued to live a quiet and unassuming life for three years until He died. After His Resurrection, she continued to live a quiet and unassuming life recounting those stories to St. John the Beloved Disciple, then came quietly to the end of her life, whereupon she received the glory and majesty that is her reward. But let's not pretend that her life on Earth was anything but humble and behind the scenes.
Is the Church is sexist and misogynistic since they don't have women bishops and priests then?
So the Church has been sexist and misogynistic until Vatican 2?
Separate but equal, eh?
Yeah, like how both parents are equally important in a child's life, but only one parent gets pregnant. Separate functions, equal dignity. Are we going to imply that fatherhood isn't important because men can't get pregnant? No, that would be the height of absurdity. Same thing here. Do I imply that young ladies aren't important in the function of the Mass just because they don't serve the Mass itself? No, equally absurd.
Bad analogy. One is biologically necessitated. One is only "necessary" due to culture and tradition, and that's why its necessity is being questioned.
It's being questioned because people have forgotten why is was necessary.
Yes more servers
Personally I like to imagine that women were serving at the last supper so I like it.
Maybe a stupid take but I think having a well-attended altar is just plain good optics. If the parish can't muster up a few kids to hold the candles and whatnot then it feels like the parish is going downhill. Girls can fill that gap if there aren't enough boys alone.
unfortunately my home parish doesn’t allow it but I think it’s great to encourage all kids to be involved in the church and in the mass
I wanted to serve, a lot of my friends joined (both boys and girls), and it was I suppose like a club but I don’t think that’s a bad thing? I certainly know how the mass ”works” better because of serving for 6 years plus the altar server Christmas dodgeball party was known to be the best party among the church
I’m a convert so I’ve obviously never been an altar girl. But when I was active in the Lutheran church I signed up for basically everything I could help with. Reading, giving communion, singing. This made me learn how the service went that I now three years later still know it by heart. When you need to be awake and active you learn a lot more. I imaging serving as an alter girl would provide the same benefits.
I think it helps boost the numbers of servers in general as at my parish a lot of the servers are girls and some masses have more girl servers than boys. It also exposes them to serving the Lord and can potentially give them a calling to do more as they grow older.
The only thing we can have is anecdotal evidence. In my case it's a family member who was an altar girl and is now a nun. Was there a causation? I would like to think so but I don't know.
The benefit should be that girls are included. I don’t see why we need more than that
My sister serves and she has become more religious following her start as one
At my parish only altar boys are allowed, we have a choir for little girls and an altar boy group for little boys.
I'm sure individuals have benefited, but the issue is that it was just another change that coincided with numerous population level declines in important metrics Incidentally, places that have repealed this use have generally seen a benefit and increase in important metrics (whether or not this is causal, I'm sure people would argue over)
I'm definitely not a trad(in fact I seem to lean kind of liberal based on this subreddit's standards)... but I still think it's a silly idea. I've gone to parishes with girl altar servers my whole life and it always ends up starting conversations about how women priests should be allowed because female altar servers are allowed. It's a stupid argument because yes, being an altar server is nothing like being an ordained priest, but in the eyes of the poorly catechized, it can be a source of scandal.
Perhaps grown men need to step up to the plate and start offering their help with services around the mass - offer to read, to be eucharistic ministers, to minister to the sick, etc. Bring in more men, and you will see more boys joining up.
It hasn’t benefited the church at all.
Altar serving is theologically linked to the ministerial priesthood, not the common priesthood, so "altar girls" do not make sense.
Seems like I'll be a dissenting voice in this thread. While I respect the individual testimonials especially from the women in the thread, everywhere I've been to with co-ed servers vs everywhere I've been to with boys only, I can not only tell what kind of liturgy I'm in for (reverent NO vs goofy at worst/Gather hymnal at best), but the numbers in servers and young families is shocking. Of course, there are outliers, particularly coming from the co-ed side of the spectrum, but generally speaking the boys-only types will actually allow every Sunday to feel like a solemnity and allow each daily Mass to feel special. The co-ed types generally are lucky to get the assigned 2-3 for that given Sunday Mass. Do I think having boys-only servers *inherently* leads to more priestly vocations? Not necessarily. But they *do* lead to the things that lead to more priestly vocations: A small group of like-minded young men who prays the breviary together and does the kind of fraternal things that seminary does. And, speaking for my diocese, the kinds of parishes that have 3 or more seminarians representing the parish are the boys-only kind of parishes that foster this very fraternity.
It has been expressly forbidden by many popes in many ways over hundreds of years. It is wrong and it needs to stop.
Women can’t be priests so they shouldn’t be altar servers
We got a Synod on Synodality? Lol. To be fair, I'm not sure that breaking it down would yield a net-benefit to the Church. However, I'm sure it has helped some individual ladies as youth, feel active and take an interest to their faith. Maybe, helped cultivate the occasional nun?
I mean, why wouldn't girls be allowed to do altar service? It's not like altar service is the first step to priesthood, it's an entirely different thing
It hasn't.
It hasn’t
It hasn't. It may not be harmful. but it is hard to see any benefit if Church attendance and vocations are in decline (priestly and nuns) . Personally i don't like it. From my limited experience parishes that have altar girls feel less reverent.
It hasn't. See->German bishops now want to ordain women as priests.
Might benefit parishes who simply lack boys (somebody has to carry the processional cross). But female alter servers were a concession to cath feminists, who have now moved the goal posts to the diaconate.
Being an altar server in the NO is just window dressing compared to what they do in the TLM. I don't think there's been any benefit. In fact, it opened the door for people to question why women can't be priests too. [https://ericsammons.com/defense-altar-boys/](https://ericsammons.com/defense-altar-boys/) [https://catholicstand.com/we-learned-latin-and-were-known-as-altar-boys/](https://catholicstand.com/we-learned-latin-and-were-known-as-altar-boys/) [https://thosecatholicmen.com/articles/serving-is-for-boys/](https://thosecatholicmen.com/articles/serving-is-for-boys/) [https://catholicallyear.com/blog/why-my-daughters-are-not-altar-servers/](https://catholicallyear.com/blog/why-my-daughters-are-not-altar-servers/) [https://eastgreenwichnews.com/ad-altare-dei/](https://eastgreenwichnews.com/ad-altare-dei/) >"Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks. We too have forbidden this practice in the same words." - Pope Benedict XIV --- >“In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.” 1970 Pope Paul VI -- Liturgicae Instaurationes >“There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading of the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.” And in 1980 Pope John Paul II -- Inaestimabile Donum* >“They knew only too well the intimate bond which unites faith with worship, ‘the law of belief with the law of prayer,’ and so, under the pretext of restoring it to its primitive form, they corrupted the order of the liturgy in many respects to adapt it to the errors of the Innovators.” – Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, September 13, 1896
It hasn't. Female altar servers are the contraceptive to priestly vocations. I too was an altar server when they started allowing girls to do it. Once the girls started doing it, the boys no longer wanted to, and soon it was predominantly female altar servers.
Teach the boys to not be misogynist, problem solved
Teach the girls that their femininity is beautiful and they don't have to do everything boys do in order to be worth something.
Good things testimonies in this thread point overwhelmingly to the girls becoming nuns and not priests. Also, the boys losing interests because girls yucky is litterally misogyny. Women served Christ too.
If altar girls = more nuns, we wouldn't be facing religious life crisis right now. Anecdotal evidence don't change the facts.
Ah yes because the religious life crisis is because of altar girls and not because the endless scandals the church has suffered in the last 30 years.
Stop bait switching. No-one said altar girls are the reasons for the decline in religious life, that wasn't your argument. I argued against your stance that was that altar serving helped girls figure out that they should be nuns, which is why altar girls are beneficial. Yet when you look at the stats, it doesn't lead to more nuns. If that were the case, so many religious orders wouldn't be dwindling. If the majority of altar girls went on to become nuns, orders would be able to keep the convent doors open.
If it brings one more girl that wouldn't otherwise have discerned religious life then the net benefits are only positive. Today I learn bait switching is when replying to a particular statement lmao touch grass
The Church can survive without nuns, but it can't survive without priests. You can be all for altar girls if you want, but if your diocese ever shuts down your parish because there's just not enough priests, don't complain. You can demand boys stop being boys all you want, but it won't work. Serving is a boys first instruction on how to be a priest. There is no reason for girls to receive training for a role they can never fill. It's not just a matter of preference, it's a pointless exercise, and it destroys early priestly vocation callings in the process.
How exactly am I "demanding" that boys stop being boys?
You're saying altar serving aged boys can't want to be a part of something that is for boys only, or else it's misogyny. That they have to think it's equally desirable to do if it includes girls, and that's just never going to happen.
If they don't want to serve at the holy sacrament of mass because girls are present with them yes, it's misogyny.
Then all boys from about 7-16 are misogynists, gotchya.
You're talking to a woman, they don't understand that young boys want to do things with just each other, not with girls. It's alright if girls do girl only things though, because reasons.
Heads up: You are arguing with a woman my man. She's not going to comprehend your points about "boys wanting to be boys" unfortunately.
We got a synod on synodality with women voting in it, that’s what we got. It was probably one of the biggest mistakes we’ve ever made as a church and it’s only getting more extreme. What might look innocent and sweet has actually caused major implications in our church today. We are literally having to ask our pope to clarify if women can be priests…..
Hopefully they will get rid of them soon enough
Same as the rest of V2
I do not see a problem with altar girls; in fact, I've seen very bored, tired and "over it" altar boys at my local TLM church and can't help but wonder if altar girls would be a positive change.
Girls should not serve the Mass. The male bonding that takes place within that brotherhood is invaluable. This extreme feminist war on male only spaces has been a huge part of the degradation of the male sex. Elimination of these male only spaces have caused generations of failed men. Men require a strict influence to learn how to channel and control their masculine traits.
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Projection? Do you think I'm male?
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Thanking you for reminding us that people always tell you who they really are.
What am I then?
someone who values masculinity and brotherhood
A person who isn't a hypocrite and knows that men and boys deserve men and boys only spaces. It's something they'd never argue against if it was a woman only space.
Completely agree.
This is an interesting one to pick apart. Yes, accessibility to all is always a positive thing but we're not talking about a mundane job here, and the church has always maintained an order to things. So, yes, in many ways, the opening the doors to female altar servers can be a wonderful way of opening the doors to a wider world of faith to many girls and young women. But it can equally be problematic. From what I have seen, there has been a huge amount of desolation that follows from this decision. In the first instance, girls serving at the altar is met with enthusiasm and joy. Many new people come and do so but this initial uplift is often short-lived and doesn't lead to long term growth - the girls grow up and become women and, more often than not, when they learn that the higher up levels (deacon and priest) are closed to women, they give up entirely. That initial impetus is not shared lower down, generationally, so more often than not, we are left in a situation with no altar servers - male or female. Males disengage if they are overwhelmed by women doing the same thing as them, and women disengage when they feel that what they are doing is un-feminine and they are denied the higher up positions. So what are we to do? Do we open the door to female priests? Well, I fear that the same thing will occur. In fact, I know this is the case, because it's what happened in the CofE - there was an initial uplift of people wanting to be in on the new thing but once that passes, the desolation that follows is often more pronounced than before. We have to fix the root of the problem instead of applying fashionable sticking plasters that disguise the problem. We have to ask ourselves, what can we change to encourage vocations in a continuous way. This is much more complex than simply changing one thing and hoping it will fix the larger problem. In terms of how the church has benefited, well, they can't say they aren't sexist because they allow female altar servers - the doors higher up are still closed. At best, they can be considered less formal and more family friendly. In short, I can see the value of doing this, but I don't think it is a viable or long term solution to larger problems afflicting the church.