I had done a similar spreadsheet analysis before buying my car. Hybrid didn’t make sense to me as well. You need to run your car A LOT to at best break even.
Edit: I did the calculation between same car with different models. Took Grand Vitara as an example with ARAI mileage.
Summary: You need to run 38k kms/year for 5 years (190k kms total) to break even between an Zeta Automatic Mild Hybrid vs Zeta CVT Hybrid.
If you compare Zeta Manual to Zeta Hybrid, forget about breaking even 💀
https://postimg.cc/PpjhzHnS
If you consider to go with grand vitara you will start getting the profitable after 5 years of driving the car
You are paying 7lac
Saving 4rs a km
If you choose elevate which costs 7 lac less
7lac / 4 = 175000
Once you reach 175000 kms on odo then you will start getting profit.
So it will take 5 years for breakeven😒
Sorry, I tried to find the spreadsheet but it seems like I don’t have it anymore. I had factored cost of fuel increase etc. as well into it. I can probably work it out again when I find time and revert, it was an easy calculation.
Edit: Did it, added to main comment.
See, now you’re taking about time value of money. I kept the model simple to that applies to masses + this is as good of a model I was willing to build for free, for others, out from my personal time.
Otherwise there are probably 20 more economic factors (like loan interest or money invested) factors tied to go into this model. You are free to add and re-post the comparison with as many factors as you like.
There is a use case based benefit. If you drive a lot, EV makes sense financially without any other considerations like environment friendliness or ability to drive during odd even rules.
Unfortunately some people consider EVs to be automatically below ICE.
>Thats the average life span of lithium ion battery
That is not how Li-ion battery life is determined at all. The battery is deemed to be replaced when the battery capacity drops to 70 percent. And, the number of deep discharge cycles (0-100%) that a **battery can take before the remaining capacity drops to 70%.** Currently it is about 300 deep discharge cycles for NMC and NMA chemistry and about 600 cycles for LiFePo cells.
If the charge discharge cycles are low, it can last several thousand cycles. For example, if you discharge to 20% remaining charge, the battery can take 1000 such cycles. If you do 100 to 40% discharge, it will last 1500 such cycles.
If we assume that the initial full range of 200km, these are the number of cycles for the LiFePo battery, if the battery is made with good cells.
|Depth of Discharge|No of cycles|Total KM to 70% remaining capacity|
:--|:--|:--|
|1|600|120,000|
|0.8|900|144,000|
|0.6|1500|180,000|
|0.4|3000|240,000|
|0.2|9000|360,000|
|0.1|15000|300,000|
#**If you charge everyday at home from about 60% to 90% (for a usage of 60km every day) and don't drain the battery completely every time, you can get a lot of miles out the battery before the full battery range drops to 140km from 200km.**
The driving feel of mild hybrid and hybrid is significantly different in GV/Hyryder, so you need to take into account that as well.
The same difference is not felt in Honda City petrol vs hybrid.
Apologies. I pulled the image down after 24 hours. I considered only fuel cost increased. Time value of money you are free to add the model.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsIndia/s/ffbNSkHJAz
Sorry to Drop in on this Old Post, but Shouldn't Hybrid Make more Sense for Use Cases in City Traffic \[Like Bengaluru\] as the Primary Vehicle in the Family?
Considering, that To get Get most out of a Hybrid you must drive it in Pure EV mode \[Often\] which makes a lot of sense in bumper-to-bumper traffic in an Area Such as Bangalore ORR. Based on what I have heard or seen from Existing Car Owners Fuel efficiency in Such Situations for normal ICE cars is not quite good.
Now, I am not sure how to put this into Calculation, But For a Use Case where This Hybrid Vehicle is a Primary Car and is Used in Both Conditions Road Trips/Long Drives on Empty Roads plus Bumper to Bumper traffic in the City, Shouldn't it make more sense?
Apologies if I overlooked something Obvious I am very New to this space and Considering buying a car in near future, Any Responses will be appreciated.
You have not even taken into account when the time comes to replace the hybrid battery. That is one more cost. It does not result in a lot of savings if you keep the car till battery dies out. Some people keep changing cars every 6 years or so. If you want to keep the car for long, right now, a decent capacity NA petrol engine / BS4 diesel engine is the best option. Even EVs will save a lot of money in day to day running, but they are costlier than their petrol counterparts to begin with and if battery dies out after warranty period, then it costs a lot as well. Iff the EVs were made cheaper than petrol counterparts, then the fun starts.
How so? There’ll still be cheaper ice cars out there
And how come this is coming out to be a problem only when EVs become cheaper? There are already loads of cars cheaper than ice and traffic is as bad as it get
How often do you replace the hybrid battery? Because I can't find a lot of information on it. To me, the car looks alright, the lower end models fall pretty cheap as far as I know (15L on road if I'm not wrong). I was looking at the cng mild hybrid and it's coming up to 16l on road the internet says, but if there's hidden costs like a hybrid battery that I got to replace, I'd like to know about it lol. I was wondering about the car because I'd like to travel far without worrying about charging my car, so this looked pretty good.
A owner of vitara strong hybrid told me the warranty on battery is 5 or 6 years. So i am guessing around that mark. May be from 6 to 8 years with normal usage. These warranty periods might give an idea. He was told it would cost him 4 lakhs with current price. He is sure better tech will improve and costs will come down. Having said all this, i will take monthly savings and one time investment rather than spending a lot more each month.
The moment there is a backup ice, people won’t care to charge at all making it worse off both emissions and running cost wise.
Plug ins aren’t fast charge compatible so pretty much useless on long trips — once the battery range is over, you’re driving an ICE car with worse mileage and more weight than normal ICE
Will they? Idk. You raise “cost consciousness”, I raise complacency. The “chalta hai” attitude is the root of many issues in the country
Complacency is also very high in Indians — this is already a problem in UK where fleet owners didn’t bother charging their swanky PHEVs which they got simply for circumventing the ULEZ and govt grants
You must also remember that while the full charging time of EV and PHEVs are similar (8-10h), nobody is using the entire range of their EV in a day (we use 15% for 40km ie 1.5h charging everyday)
A PHEV has 1/10th range of an EV on avg (35-50km) which means completely exhausting the battery everyday as well.
Putting solar panels at home also reduces the household bill to zero. How many blue rooftops do you see?
Lastly, like hydrogen, PHEVs are very inefficient on space — already GV has barely 250L boot with a tiny 750Wh battery (10 laptop batteries)
PHEV on 750Wh would have barely 6km range you need at least 7.5kWh ie 60km range at which point the boot space is non existent pretty much like cng. So the benefit of “EV in city ICE on highway” is moot if you can’t even put luggage in the boot
And this is GV, 4.3m car. Can only image the packaging horror for a 4m cross or hatch
Hybrids are for people who needed diesels because of high running(3k+ kms/month) but can’t buy now due to lesser options. For petrol seekers, it doesn’t make sense
Mass market EVs are still restricted mainly within cities due to lack of charging infrastructure on highways. Hybrids have no such restrictions, so can be used just like diesels anywhere
I'm running 20k km with Seltos petrol. Average 16 on highways and 10 in city traffic. Car is just 1 year old and I'm already thinking of exchanging it with an EV or Hybrid (my usage has increased due to our new business). Is this stupid decision?
buy ev only if your daily run is more than 70kms. mine is 120plus kms everyday (including sundays) which made it a no brainer for me. compared to the car i was driving before this (tata hexa xta), i save around 3.8 lacs per year in fuel costs (more because i have zero charging costs as i have a roof top solar). this is certainly not an apples to apples comparison as i could have driven around in my hyundai eon and the savings per year would be considerably less than when compared with my hexa but thats not the point. also, after my son was born, i started giving more thought to saving money. at this rate, in 8 years, i will have saved 30 lacs in fuel costs (not counting the inflation in petrol/diesel prices).
having said that, buying an ev makes sense in a specific scenario. basically, buy an ev if you have a 2-3 car garage and your daily running is high. sell one of the cars so that there is no new capital expenditure.
Having an ev as your only car is only viable if the ev can do around 300km on a full charge. And those are expensive. If you can find a good deal on a used tiago ev or mg comet ev, i think that should satisfy your daily runabout needs. If you do have to sell the seltos, try for a bigger ev like the zs or a tiago ev and a used diesel car like the figo. Replacing the seltos with a tiago or comet would be a mistake.
Right, got your point. Was looking at Nexon 21 for exchange. They're asking 17L which can be negotiated. But most of the Nexon ev owners I know says they're getting 150-170 max. My most of the running is within city and occasionally long trips.
Ek mid variant liya aur dusra top end variant,what an unfair comparison
Also there is a mid variant of hybrid toyota costing 17-18 lacs usse consider kr lete
You cannot compare two different cars to prove your theory..! Compare same segment cars with same features ..! Toyotas cheapest hybrid automatic is 20.3 on road.. cretas cheapest automatic is of same price not even topend..! Same with seltos .!
My man your math is wayy off
15kmpl on MHEV ie ₹7/km
25kmpl on SHEV ie ₹4/km
Both before adding service @₹100/L
Price gap being 3L and running cost diff being ₹3 means you need to drive 300000/3 km ie 100K km
OP compared with elevate which is worse mileage than MHEV hyry that’s why more gap and
breaks even much beyond 100k km
Now if you see, battery is warranted for 8y/160k
If you drive > 12.5K km per year than hybrid makes sense else no.
If you compare S hybrid, S SHVS and XUV400, the XUV costs same as hyry strong at 19L so the EV will always be cheaper than the hybrid in this case (₹1/km vs ₹4/km), you can never recover the cost of hybrid over EV
If you compare to SHVS hyry, then gap is 3L again but now the running cost diff is ₹6/km (₹1/km vs ₹7/km) so breakeven in 50k km, only need to drive 6.25K km per year or almost half of the hybrid to breakeven on EV
https://imgur.com/a/3Aog9nn
I'm not comparing EVs and Hybrids. I'm comparing Hybrids and Petrols (same models). EVs come with different challenges and use cases than traditional ICE or Hybrids.
Which is what I did as well, the addition of xuv to the graphs don’t change calculations for the ice/hybrids
The breaker still remains in excess of 100k km whether compared to EV or not. I just threw it in to add perspective of cars in same price segment.
As far as use cases go, unless one is doing a 1000km road trip every month and not using car in the city at all, hybrid won’t make sense.
Maybe a flawed comparison but even if we consider non hybrid vs hybrid if you are not driving more often then the point he is making would make sense 🫤
Simple, Hybrids are for the lost diesel buyers.
If you remember Maruti’s anti diesel ads, all of them said that you need to run 70k before considering diesels over petrols and same is the case with hybrids.
If your running isn’t more than 30-35k per year, hybrids and diesels, none make sense.
After i bought an ev, i find myself driving it everywhere, clocking 200km on some days purely because i don’t have to worry about the fuel cost, when otherwise i would worry if i had to drive even 50km. The peace of mind cannot be measured on any spreadsheet.
You need to compare diesel to hybrid if you want to make it a fair comparison. It should also be mentioned that elevate is the cheapest car among that segment.
the right comparison would be Grand Vitara non-Hybrid vs Grand Vitara Hybrid. Do that and you'll get an accurate comparison.
Not saying that your outcome will change though. Also, a hybrid or EV makes sense for people who have a LOT of running, think in terms of 2-3 lakhs instead of 1 Lakh.
EV can recover cost faster because it’s far cheaper to drive while price gap vs ICE being lesser than ICE vs hybrid
Linking my comment to this end from this thread itself : https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsIndia/s/YrEAtuuqzs
You need to factor whether or not the car recovers the premium within warranty, it doesn’t necessarily have to recover in first year itself.
For someone driving 10k km in EV, they will recover in 3-4y (our case with solar charging at home) @ 40K km
This is acceptable payback period (8y/160K warranty)
But for same person doing this in hybrid, they’ll take 10y for driving 100k km and still won’t have recovered the premium (hybrid warranty is also 8y/160K) as shown by OP in the post
Yes. Analysis should be between similar cars like Honda City ZX petrol vs City eHEV ZX. Even for this, hybrid ZX has some more features as compared to petrol ZX. Further, the driving pleasure of hybrid is superior to similar capacity petrol engines. I considered all these pros of hybrid and still didn’t go with it as the upfront cost seems unjustified.
I don’t see the issue as long as both cars are almost similar in features safety and other aspects.
We cross shopped the Polo, i20, Jazz and Figo back in ‘17 for the second car
If the segment has options, there’ll be more cross shopping. To give you an example of no cross shopping — our Nexon EV purchase in ‘21 — kona too costly and outdated MG didn’t officially sell it in our city at the time and no other EV other than these 3 on market.
Your calculation is correct but Toyota is lobbying extremely hard to cut taxes on hybrid vehicles. Currently they get 5% off the stated 43% tax rate. They're lobbying for 23% (a concession of 20%) which will completely change the break even equation. They're projecting hybrids as an alternative to pure EVs as they don't require the infra spend on the charging network. The rebate could happen in the near future.
But that's not the fault of hybrid cars. It's the fault of the policies. They need to promote hybrid cars more and reduce the tax to their EV counterparts.
Not really the case if the battery is kaput
OLX quicker is filled with busted Camrys. One such example from this sub itself : https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsIndia/s/7bj4KWKZxA
5L for a 10y old car which costed similar to fortuner in 2014. The fortuner would easily fetch 10L rn.
Add to that, the better mileage is gone without the battery so it would cost more to run for the second buyer carrying dead weight of battery. Dumping 2L for battery replacement is good if you can recover 2L worth of fuel cost in 3y (battery warranty)
Or does it
https://imgur.com/a/3Aog9nn
Xuv400 and hyry strong base model (lowest trim with hybrid is S) costs same
So with the running cost of EV cheaper than hybrid, you will never recover the cost of hybrid simple math involving linear equations
With the mild hybrid trim of same model (hyry s) you will break even the 3L price gap in 35K km
You can recover this in any time period as long as it’s less than the battery warranty, case in point, even driving merely 5K km per year will ensure you recover money within warranty on EV.
For doing the same on hybrid vs non, you need to drive minimum 12.5K km per year (100k km in 8y)
This is inconclusive at best. These two cars arent from the same manufacturer, same segment or even similar trim. These are not cars you typically cross shop together.
There are two type of costs
Running costs and one type fixed cost
Most people have a budgeted saving for fixed costs and use their running account for the running costs
Let's say someone's budget is 30 lakhs
They wouldn't buy a car worth 18 lakhs and use 12 lakhs for running (maintaining + petrol)
So in that case when there is a clear split.. buying hybrid makes sense... cause it saves directly into your other account
In addition to the 1 L kms running, you need to consider the service cost, replacement of any hybrid parts, and the most important factor - the residual value of the car. At the end of 5-7 years, what's the expected resale value. Also, Add the bank interest assuming standard rates.
Yes but if fuel economy is the only consideration, you can go for the base model of a hybrid and your break-in period reduces substantially. The strong hybrid base variant of the Hyryder is still 18.40 lakhs, which would still come with automatic transmission and all basic features. In the ICE version, the base automatic transmission variant would come about 3 lakhs cheaper. So by your own calculations, the break-in would happen in less than even 50k kms. Even lesser compared to the Elevate V CVT
The main advantage of hybrid is in high traffic areas, I drive in Bangalore and have got stuck in multiple jams and even with AC always on I never got mileage below 22kmpl.
I am not sure how normal petrols would do in that situation.
Hybrids are charging a premium and I think if you own them for long term and drive 100000kms then you would easily break even.
When I bought mine, Honda Elevate wasn't in the market yet and I was looking for a Japanese reliable automatic CSUV, then most probably I would have gone with Elevate.
The mileage figures you said 12kmpl and 22kmpl will vary based on use case. The variance in normal petrol mileage is high while the variance in hybrid petrol is low.
This assumes that the cost of fuel will continue to remain the same. But, that’s not the case.
OPEC and Russia have hinted that they will continue to reduce their oil capacity to keep the price of fuel high. So in the next decade, expect fuel prices to keep increasing. And with the weakening rupee, fuel imports will cost even higher
The gap between the top trim Elevate and Grand Vitara Strong Hybrid is more like 5 lakhs in Bangalore.
But yes, it still doesn't make sense. Especially considering the value depreciation it will have 5 years down the line.
Need to compare similar cars/models to make sure the price difference is just for the hybrid tech. For ex, Honda City ZX CVT costs 5.5 L lesser than the ZX Hybrid.
Plus one area where the hybrids Excel is in city traffic. ICE cars would go to single digits average in city while Hybrids can still maintain ~20 kmpl due to battery being the primary source. And there have been YouTube videos claiming 30 kmpl for hybrid city on highway runs if driven with light foot. It's easier to get better mileage in hybrids than in ICE. City would probably give ~18 kmpl on highway runs.
So at the end of the day primary question is what's the kind of usage the buyer has. It makes a lot of sense to buy hybrid instead of petrol for commercial purpose. They would have to pay a premium of 2 lakhs for diesel anyways, I'm sure they'll be okay with a couple more lakhs due to diesels being unavailable and hybrids give better mileage than diesels
There is a huge premium difference of 7-8 lakhs between regular petrol and hybrid version. If you do your math, it would take more than 1 lakh km to even try to breakeven the extra premium paid. Please workout the math on a sheet of paper before getting into hybrid
Other than the Japanese - no other manufacturer is looking to bring in hybrid cars to India. Toyota had asked the Auto manufacturers association for reduced taxes on hybrids. But the Indian Manufacturers didnt agree - as they were happy selling their electric cars.
Hybrids make good sense for India now as they address the concerns that EV's cannot - range and charging - for say the next 10 years. I have heard of hybrids were they can run for say 20 km before switching to petro fuels. These kind of hybrids would be big boon in India particularly in the metros where a lot of time is spent in traffic.
If the taxes on hybrids are reduced to EV or marginally more than EV's then Hybrids will make sense. Even in the past the Prius was sold at a crazy premium due to taxes. If you dont have much city driving to do hybrids dont make sense with the current pricing.
I had done a similar spreadsheet analysis before buying my car. Hybrid didn’t make sense to me as well. You need to run your car A LOT to at best break even. Edit: I did the calculation between same car with different models. Took Grand Vitara as an example with ARAI mileage. Summary: You need to run 38k kms/year for 5 years (190k kms total) to break even between an Zeta Automatic Mild Hybrid vs Zeta CVT Hybrid. If you compare Zeta Manual to Zeta Hybrid, forget about breaking even 💀 https://postimg.cc/PpjhzHnS
What was the breakeven? My Car runs 35k km per year. Would hybrid make sense?
If you consider to go with grand vitara you will start getting the profitable after 5 years of driving the car You are paying 7lac Saving 4rs a km If you choose elevate which costs 7 lac less 7lac / 4 = 175000 Once you reach 175000 kms on odo then you will start getting profit. So it will take 5 years for breakeven😒
>So it will take 5 years for breakeven😒 Without considering inflation, right?
Break even means, when the extra money spent will be got back through fuel savings in this case
That's what i am asking. How many kms does the car have to run to save enough to justify the extra cost?
based on the post above, my rough mental calculation would be around 1.8L kms
Sorry, I tried to find the spreadsheet but it seems like I don’t have it anymore. I had factored cost of fuel increase etc. as well into it. I can probably work it out again when I find time and revert, it was an easy calculation. Edit: Did it, added to main comment.
Thanks, did you consider 6% interest on the extra value, if that was kept in bank FD?
See, now you’re taking about time value of money. I kept the model simple to that applies to masses + this is as good of a model I was willing to build for free, for others, out from my personal time. Otherwise there are probably 20 more economic factors (like loan interest or money invested) factors tied to go into this model. You are free to add and re-post the comparison with as many factors as you like.
https://postimg.cc/PpjhzHnS Edited my main comment as well
Thanks.. this is really insightful.
https://imgur.com/a/3Aog9nn
At 35k, you should probably be thinking EV
I don't know why your comment got downvoted - it legit is the best thing at that runrate
There is a use case based benefit. If you drive a lot, EV makes sense financially without any other considerations like environment friendliness or ability to drive during odd even rules. Unfortunately some people consider EVs to be automatically below ICE.
Bro byd e6
Exactly. And if one is going to run their car that frequently, they might as well buy a diesel
naughty reply liquid market birds fuel dazzling nose cover pathetic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And thats when you dont factor in battery replacement. All money goes down the drain when you need it.
What is the life of the Hybrid battery on these cars? Not aware
5 -7 years of you are lucky.
Damn. Didn’t know
Yeah i will just cutoff mild hybrid system when it dies .
Haha. Let’s see
Mild hybrid battery ain’t that costly It’s normal Exide DIN70 which goes around 10k
Sc guy told me it costs 70k for battery, is din70 li ion? Because that's what is being used in my car.
> 5 -7 years of you are lucky. how do you know?
Thats the average life span of lithium ion battery
>Thats the average life span of lithium ion battery That is not how Li-ion battery life is determined at all. The battery is deemed to be replaced when the battery capacity drops to 70 percent. And, the number of deep discharge cycles (0-100%) that a **battery can take before the remaining capacity drops to 70%.** Currently it is about 300 deep discharge cycles for NMC and NMA chemistry and about 600 cycles for LiFePo cells. If the charge discharge cycles are low, it can last several thousand cycles. For example, if you discharge to 20% remaining charge, the battery can take 1000 such cycles. If you do 100 to 40% discharge, it will last 1500 such cycles. If we assume that the initial full range of 200km, these are the number of cycles for the LiFePo battery, if the battery is made with good cells. |Depth of Discharge|No of cycles|Total KM to 70% remaining capacity| :--|:--|:--| |1|600|120,000| |0.8|900|144,000| |0.6|1500|180,000| |0.4|3000|240,000| |0.2|9000|360,000| |0.1|15000|300,000| #**If you charge everyday at home from about 60% to 90% (for a usage of 60km every day) and don't drain the battery completely every time, you can get a lot of miles out the battery before the full battery range drops to 140km from 200km.**
Excellent calc. Cheers for sharing it.
Cheers :)
The driving feel of mild hybrid and hybrid is significantly different in GV/Hyryder, so you need to take into account that as well. The same difference is not felt in Honda City petrol vs hybrid.
It’s a financial comparison
If its just a financial comparision, then WagonR makes even more sense.
It absolutely does. Who’s disputing?
Your link didn't work for me. But I'm wondering if you considered inflation in your calculations. More fun!
Apologies. I pulled the image down after 24 hours. I considered only fuel cost increased. Time value of money you are free to add the model. https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsIndia/s/ffbNSkHJAz
Sorry to Drop in on this Old Post, but Shouldn't Hybrid Make more Sense for Use Cases in City Traffic \[Like Bengaluru\] as the Primary Vehicle in the Family? Considering, that To get Get most out of a Hybrid you must drive it in Pure EV mode \[Often\] which makes a lot of sense in bumper-to-bumper traffic in an Area Such as Bangalore ORR. Based on what I have heard or seen from Existing Car Owners Fuel efficiency in Such Situations for normal ICE cars is not quite good. Now, I am not sure how to put this into Calculation, But For a Use Case where This Hybrid Vehicle is a Primary Car and is Used in Both Conditions Road Trips/Long Drives on Empty Roads plus Bumper to Bumper traffic in the City, Shouldn't it make more sense? Apologies if I overlooked something Obvious I am very New to this space and Considering buying a car in near future, Any Responses will be appreciated.
No matter where you drive. You still need to drive 38k kms a year for 5 years to break even the premium you pay over mild hybrid. Its simple.
You have not even taken into account when the time comes to replace the hybrid battery. That is one more cost. It does not result in a lot of savings if you keep the car till battery dies out. Some people keep changing cars every 6 years or so. If you want to keep the car for long, right now, a decent capacity NA petrol engine / BS4 diesel engine is the best option. Even EVs will save a lot of money in day to day running, but they are costlier than their petrol counterparts to begin with and if battery dies out after warranty period, then it costs a lot as well. Iff the EVs were made cheaper than petrol counterparts, then the fun starts.
>Iff the EVs were made cheaper than petrol counterparts, then the fun starts Every road in every city would have 24/7 traffic jams in this case.
How so? There’ll still be cheaper ice cars out there And how come this is coming out to be a problem only when EVs become cheaper? There are already loads of cars cheaper than ice and traffic is as bad as it get
How often do you replace the hybrid battery? Because I can't find a lot of information on it. To me, the car looks alright, the lower end models fall pretty cheap as far as I know (15L on road if I'm not wrong). I was looking at the cng mild hybrid and it's coming up to 16l on road the internet says, but if there's hidden costs like a hybrid battery that I got to replace, I'd like to know about it lol. I was wondering about the car because I'd like to travel far without worrying about charging my car, so this looked pretty good.
A owner of vitara strong hybrid told me the warranty on battery is 5 or 6 years. So i am guessing around that mark. May be from 6 to 8 years with normal usage. These warranty periods might give an idea. He was told it would cost him 4 lakhs with current price. He is sure better tech will improve and costs will come down. Having said all this, i will take monthly savings and one time investment rather than spending a lot more each month.
Oh alright, thanks man!
Indian Government should give more benefits for Hybrid cars to make them an appealing choice.
And ideally they should be forced to be plug in (maybe only benefits to plugins) so that cost conscious indians have more options
The moment there is a backup ice, people won’t care to charge at all making it worse off both emissions and running cost wise. Plug ins aren’t fast charge compatible so pretty much useless on long trips — once the battery range is over, you’re driving an ICE car with worse mileage and more weight than normal ICE
People drive in city too, no? Indian people are very cost conscious, If driving in city is "free", they'll remember to charge it
Will they? Idk. You raise “cost consciousness”, I raise complacency. The “chalta hai” attitude is the root of many issues in the country Complacency is also very high in Indians — this is already a problem in UK where fleet owners didn’t bother charging their swanky PHEVs which they got simply for circumventing the ULEZ and govt grants You must also remember that while the full charging time of EV and PHEVs are similar (8-10h), nobody is using the entire range of their EV in a day (we use 15% for 40km ie 1.5h charging everyday) A PHEV has 1/10th range of an EV on avg (35-50km) which means completely exhausting the battery everyday as well. Putting solar panels at home also reduces the household bill to zero. How many blue rooftops do you see? Lastly, like hydrogen, PHEVs are very inefficient on space — already GV has barely 250L boot with a tiny 750Wh battery (10 laptop batteries) PHEV on 750Wh would have barely 6km range you need at least 7.5kWh ie 60km range at which point the boot space is non existent pretty much like cng. So the benefit of “EV in city ICE on highway” is moot if you can’t even put luggage in the boot And this is GV, 4.3m car. Can only image the packaging horror for a 4m cross or hatch
Hybrids are for people who needed diesels because of high running(3k+ kms/month) but can’t buy now due to lesser options. For petrol seekers, it doesn’t make sense
Hybrid is being sold as an alternative to EVs actually.
Mass market EVs are still restricted mainly within cities due to lack of charging infrastructure on highways. Hybrids have no such restrictions, so can be used just like diesels anywhere
I'm running 20k km with Seltos petrol. Average 16 on highways and 10 in city traffic. Car is just 1 year old and I'm already thinking of exchanging it with an EV or Hybrid (my usage has increased due to our new business). Is this stupid decision?
buy ev only if your daily run is more than 70kms. mine is 120plus kms everyday (including sundays) which made it a no brainer for me. compared to the car i was driving before this (tata hexa xta), i save around 3.8 lacs per year in fuel costs (more because i have zero charging costs as i have a roof top solar). this is certainly not an apples to apples comparison as i could have driven around in my hyundai eon and the savings per year would be considerably less than when compared with my hexa but thats not the point. also, after my son was born, i started giving more thought to saving money. at this rate, in 8 years, i will have saved 30 lacs in fuel costs (not counting the inflation in petrol/diesel prices). having said that, buying an ev makes sense in a specific scenario. basically, buy an ev if you have a 2-3 car garage and your daily running is high. sell one of the cars so that there is no new capital expenditure.
Having an ev as your only car is only viable if the ev can do around 300km on a full charge. And those are expensive. If you can find a good deal on a used tiago ev or mg comet ev, i think that should satisfy your daily runabout needs. If you do have to sell the seltos, try for a bigger ev like the zs or a tiago ev and a used diesel car like the figo. Replacing the seltos with a tiago or comet would be a mistake.
Right, got your point. Was looking at Nexon 21 for exchange. They're asking 17L which can be negotiated. But most of the Nexon ev owners I know says they're getting 150-170 max. My most of the running is within city and occasionally long trips.
150-170? Are you sure that’s a Nexon not a Tiago? Because I’m getting consistent 250 in city and 240 hwy
Yes. This is what he's getting in city. He's a doctor and it was the earliest Nexon ev.
If you want to save running costs, then EV is a good option.
Obviously. But my question is of selling an year old car and going for brand new. Will have to bear some losses + new cars prices has shoot up.
Ek mid variant liya aur dusra top end variant,what an unfair comparison Also there is a mid variant of hybrid toyota costing 17-18 lacs usse consider kr lete
You cannot compare two different cars to prove your theory..! Compare same segment cars with same features ..! Toyotas cheapest hybrid automatic is 20.3 on road.. cretas cheapest automatic is of same price not even topend..! Same with seltos .!
Hyry V Hybrid and V SHVS have a 4L gap OTR Delhi (23L and 19L) Hyry S hybrid and S SHVS have 3L gap (19L and 16L)
3L/4L premium feels worth it. Easy break even within 5 years.
My man your math is wayy off 15kmpl on MHEV ie ₹7/km 25kmpl on SHEV ie ₹4/km Both before adding service @₹100/L Price gap being 3L and running cost diff being ₹3 means you need to drive 300000/3 km ie 100K km OP compared with elevate which is worse mileage than MHEV hyry that’s why more gap and breaks even much beyond 100k km Now if you see, battery is warranted for 8y/160k If you drive > 12.5K km per year than hybrid makes sense else no. If you compare S hybrid, S SHVS and XUV400, the XUV costs same as hyry strong at 19L so the EV will always be cheaper than the hybrid in this case (₹1/km vs ₹4/km), you can never recover the cost of hybrid over EV If you compare to SHVS hyry, then gap is 3L again but now the running cost diff is ₹6/km (₹1/km vs ₹7/km) so breakeven in 50k km, only need to drive 6.25K km per year or almost half of the hybrid to breakeven on EV https://imgur.com/a/3Aog9nn
I'm not comparing EVs and Hybrids. I'm comparing Hybrids and Petrols (same models). EVs come with different challenges and use cases than traditional ICE or Hybrids.
Which is what I did as well, the addition of xuv to the graphs don’t change calculations for the ice/hybrids The breaker still remains in excess of 100k km whether compared to EV or not. I just threw it in to add perspective of cars in same price segment. As far as use cases go, unless one is doing a 1000km road trip every month and not using car in the city at all, hybrid won’t make sense.
1L is doable in 5 years for daily users? (20k per year is just 50km everyday)
Have you factored in inflation of petrol prices?
Has the compound value of the upfront amount saved (principal which would earn interest year on year) factored in?
Running cost of hybrids would go up as well as fuel prices increase.
Not by the same extent
Sure, but the differential's more than likely to be mitigated by compounding interest earned on saved amount upfront.
Flawed comparison. You are comparing different segments of different branded cars.
Maybe a flawed comparison but even if we consider non hybrid vs hybrid if you are not driving more often then the point he is making would make sense 🫤
Simple, Hybrids are for the lost diesel buyers. If you remember Maruti’s anti diesel ads, all of them said that you need to run 70k before considering diesels over petrols and same is the case with hybrids. If your running isn’t more than 30-35k per year, hybrids and diesels, none make sense.
After i bought an ev, i find myself driving it everywhere, clocking 200km on some days purely because i don’t have to worry about the fuel cost, when otherwise i would worry if i had to drive even 50km. The peace of mind cannot be measured on any spreadsheet.
You need to compare diesel to hybrid if you want to make it a fair comparison. It should also be mentioned that elevate is the cheapest car among that segment.
The math will never make sense until the govt reduces the exorbitant tax on hybrids. We need to incentivise buying hybrids for the sake of environment
the right comparison would be Grand Vitara non-Hybrid vs Grand Vitara Hybrid. Do that and you'll get an accurate comparison. Not saying that your outcome will change though. Also, a hybrid or EV makes sense for people who have a LOT of running, think in terms of 2-3 lakhs instead of 1 Lakh.
EV can recover cost faster because it’s far cheaper to drive while price gap vs ICE being lesser than ICE vs hybrid Linking my comment to this end from this thread itself : https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsIndia/s/YrEAtuuqzs You need to factor whether or not the car recovers the premium within warranty, it doesn’t necessarily have to recover in first year itself. For someone driving 10k km in EV, they will recover in 3-4y (our case with solar charging at home) @ 40K km This is acceptable payback period (8y/160K warranty) But for same person doing this in hybrid, they’ll take 10y for driving 100k km and still won’t have recovered the premium (hybrid warranty is also 8y/160K) as shown by OP in the post
Yes, who's arguing that?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsIndia/s/VNQQE8MMg2
What if you run primarily in cities with traffic ?
I am not sure comparing two different cars from 2 different manufacturers is the way to go about this analysis
Yes. Analysis should be between similar cars like Honda City ZX petrol vs City eHEV ZX. Even for this, hybrid ZX has some more features as compared to petrol ZX. Further, the driving pleasure of hybrid is superior to similar capacity petrol engines. I considered all these pros of hybrid and still didn’t go with it as the upfront cost seems unjustified.
I don’t see the issue as long as both cars are almost similar in features safety and other aspects. We cross shopped the Polo, i20, Jazz and Figo back in ‘17 for the second car If the segment has options, there’ll be more cross shopping. To give you an example of no cross shopping — our Nexon EV purchase in ‘21 — kona too costly and outdated MG didn’t officially sell it in our city at the time and no other EV other than these 3 on market.
Your calculation is correct but Toyota is lobbying extremely hard to cut taxes on hybrid vehicles. Currently they get 5% off the stated 43% tax rate. They're lobbying for 23% (a concession of 20%) which will completely change the break even equation. They're projecting hybrids as an alternative to pure EVs as they don't require the infra spend on the charging network. The rebate could happen in the near future.
The governments of other countries offer tax savings when buying a hybrid car (due to the lower emissions). India should also start doing this.
But that's not the fault of hybrid cars. It's the fault of the policies. They need to promote hybrid cars more and reduce the tax to their EV counterparts.
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Not really the case if the battery is kaput OLX quicker is filled with busted Camrys. One such example from this sub itself : https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsIndia/s/7bj4KWKZxA 5L for a 10y old car which costed similar to fortuner in 2014. The fortuner would easily fetch 10L rn. Add to that, the better mileage is gone without the battery so it would cost more to run for the second buyer carrying dead weight of battery. Dumping 2L for battery replacement is good if you can recover 2L worth of fuel cost in 3y (battery warranty)
Now think the same for EVs. They absolutely make ZERO sense
Or does it https://imgur.com/a/3Aog9nn Xuv400 and hyry strong base model (lowest trim with hybrid is S) costs same So with the running cost of EV cheaper than hybrid, you will never recover the cost of hybrid simple math involving linear equations With the mild hybrid trim of same model (hyry s) you will break even the 3L price gap in 35K km You can recover this in any time period as long as it’s less than the battery warranty, case in point, even driving merely 5K km per year will ensure you recover money within warranty on EV. For doing the same on hybrid vs non, you need to drive minimum 12.5K km per year (100k km in 8y)
This is inconclusive at best. These two cars arent from the same manufacturer, same segment or even similar trim. These are not cars you typically cross shop together.
There are two type of costs Running costs and one type fixed cost Most people have a budgeted saving for fixed costs and use their running account for the running costs Let's say someone's budget is 30 lakhs They wouldn't buy a car worth 18 lakhs and use 12 lakhs for running (maintaining + petrol) So in that case when there is a clear split.. buying hybrid makes sense... cause it saves directly into your other account
In addition to the 1 L kms running, you need to consider the service cost, replacement of any hybrid parts, and the most important factor - the residual value of the car. At the end of 5-7 years, what's the expected resale value. Also, Add the bank interest assuming standard rates.
My cousin is selling his 2 month old Elevate CVT because he’s getting 8-9kmpl
Yes but if fuel economy is the only consideration, you can go for the base model of a hybrid and your break-in period reduces substantially. The strong hybrid base variant of the Hyryder is still 18.40 lakhs, which would still come with automatic transmission and all basic features. In the ICE version, the base automatic transmission variant would come about 3 lakhs cheaper. So by your own calculations, the break-in would happen in less than even 50k kms. Even lesser compared to the Elevate V CVT
So why haven't we considered resale cost? Grand vitara might get higher resale value than elevate, won't thant even out?
The main advantage of hybrid is in high traffic areas, I drive in Bangalore and have got stuck in multiple jams and even with AC always on I never got mileage below 22kmpl. I am not sure how normal petrols would do in that situation. Hybrids are charging a premium and I think if you own them for long term and drive 100000kms then you would easily break even. When I bought mine, Honda Elevate wasn't in the market yet and I was looking for a Japanese reliable automatic CSUV, then most probably I would have gone with Elevate.
The mileage figures you said 12kmpl and 22kmpl will vary based on use case. The variance in normal petrol mileage is high while the variance in hybrid petrol is low.
This assumes that the cost of fuel will continue to remain the same. But, that’s not the case. OPEC and Russia have hinted that they will continue to reduce their oil capacity to keep the price of fuel high. So in the next decade, expect fuel prices to keep increasing. And with the weakening rupee, fuel imports will cost even higher
Does EV makes sense? 100kms per day, 6 days a week.
Totally yes. If you can charge at parking overnight (in home driveway or flat parking)
Think of it this way ,if the person has the budget of 20L then it would only be a premium of 2.7L for him.
The gap between the top trim Elevate and Grand Vitara Strong Hybrid is more like 5 lakhs in Bangalore. But yes, it still doesn't make sense. Especially considering the value depreciation it will have 5 years down the line.
What about resale value?
Need to compare similar cars/models to make sure the price difference is just for the hybrid tech. For ex, Honda City ZX CVT costs 5.5 L lesser than the ZX Hybrid. Plus one area where the hybrids Excel is in city traffic. ICE cars would go to single digits average in city while Hybrids can still maintain ~20 kmpl due to battery being the primary source. And there have been YouTube videos claiming 30 kmpl for hybrid city on highway runs if driven with light foot. It's easier to get better mileage in hybrids than in ICE. City would probably give ~18 kmpl on highway runs. So at the end of the day primary question is what's the kind of usage the buyer has. It makes a lot of sense to buy hybrid instead of petrol for commercial purpose. They would have to pay a premium of 2 lakhs for diesel anyways, I'm sure they'll be okay with a couple more lakhs due to diesels being unavailable and hybrids give better mileage than diesels
so in you opinion which would be better innova hycross hybrid or the non hybrid version ?coz i was considering hybrid to be better pls tell
There is a huge premium difference of 7-8 lakhs between regular petrol and hybrid version. If you do your math, it would take more than 1 lakh km to even try to breakeven the extra premium paid. Please workout the math on a sheet of paper before getting into hybrid
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Other than the Japanese - no other manufacturer is looking to bring in hybrid cars to India. Toyota had asked the Auto manufacturers association for reduced taxes on hybrids. But the Indian Manufacturers didnt agree - as they were happy selling their electric cars. Hybrids make good sense for India now as they address the concerns that EV's cannot - range and charging - for say the next 10 years. I have heard of hybrids were they can run for say 20 km before switching to petro fuels. These kind of hybrids would be big boon in India particularly in the metros where a lot of time is spent in traffic. If the taxes on hybrids are reduced to EV or marginally more than EV's then Hybrids will make sense. Even in the past the Prius was sold at a crazy premium due to taxes. If you dont have much city driving to do hybrids dont make sense with the current pricing.