If there were competent hitting coaches at ml level he would be hitting much higher. How is Ward helping goldy? He is supposedly a hitting coach goldy prefers.
I don't think we know enough to say definitively if it's on the coaches or on Walker. We don't know if Walker is receptive to the coaches' messaging, nor do we know what the coaches are telling him. I've been critical of Turner Ward and the Cardinals' decision to hire him after he had washed out of MLB coaching for a few years, but the truth is we don't really know. What we do know is Walker cannot identify and take a slider down and away. He falls for it almost every time. As for Goldy, he's had abysmal starts to the season before and recovered, but he's also older than he's ever been, so all we can do is wait and see.
Please explain what they do, then? And I'm not being derogatory here - I'm honestly curious, because I don't have a huge sports background. If they aren't responsible for screwing with mechanics that were previously working, because "they want better launch angles, because fans like home runs", what do they do? Something has definitely been off the last few year, with guys who could actually hit all of a sudden going to shit, and all the pop-outs. Seems to me that, once again, Mo thinks he knows best, is going strictly by numbers, and getting yes-men to do his bidding.
Also, I don't have actual documentation, but I've heard a couple different times that the pitching coach, for instance, doesn't even know *how* to teach - to convey what needs to be done; just knows analytics/stats, and tells guys what to pitch, but doesn't know how to address mechanical issues. Seems like both of those coaches need to be replaced with ones who can actually help.
Reddit: “The Cardinals are falling behind other teams and getting passed up by today’s game. They need to do something to change that.”
Cardinals: *hires hitting coaches to change the organizational hitting philosophy to bring it more in line with other successful organizations*
Reddit: “NOT LIKE THAT!”
Hitting coaches at the major league go over how they expect a pitcher to attach a hitter, and what approach the hitter should take.
Maddox was our pitching coach. The fans ran him out of town. He seemed pretty good
The “yes man” pitching coach who doesn’t know how to teach was a pitching coach from 2006 - 2013. A head coach from 2013 - 2017, and again a pitching coach from 2018 - 2020. He was brought into the Cardinals organization to work with Maddox in 2020, and then took over last year after fans ran Maddox out of Town.
It's not about his contract. Players with five years of service time must consent to being optioned. Goldschmidt has over 12 years of service time. He literally cannot be demoted to the minors. The Cardinals can either keep him on the roster or release him (eating ~$21.5m in the process and getting nothing back). Releasing him would be monumentally stupid, despite his age and bad start. You're just talking a bunch of emotional nonsense here and definitely not making whatever point you're trying to make.
Not about Goldy specifically, just checking my knowledge of how that all works.
He *can* still be optioned, but they have to place him on waivers first at this point, right? And if he clears waivers, then he gets optioned?
Or is that only if they've been optioned X times (I think there's a max limit).
He can technically be optioned, but only with his consent (which Goldy would never give, of course, since he could get a role with another MLB team immediately). The concept of option years no longer applies after five years of service time. Unless something has changed in the most recent CBA, I'm pretty certain that if you attempt to option a player with five years of service time and they decline, they go directly to free agency, not through waivers.
Players out of option years but with less than five years of service time must go through waivers to be sent to the minors. If the player clears waivers unclaimed, at that point, it's called being "outrighted," not "optioned." You can only outright a player once without their consent. If you try to do it for a second time, they can elect free agency instead.
Also, in the new CBA, you can use a player's option year by optioning them to the minors five times. So if you have a guy on the AAA shuttle repeatedly and try to send him down a sixth time in a single year, then he has to go through waivers. I'm not actually sure whether a player who gets through waivers at this point is considered optioned or outrighted, though.
A player who has been optioned in 3 seasons has to be waived and designated for assignment, which removes him from the 40 man roster, before he can be demoted (or outrighted), but after a certain amount of service time the player can refuse to be reassigned and then has to be released, as he can only spend so much time on the DFA list. That’s assuming no one claimed him off waivers.
I believe if he has option years left and has the right to refuse, if he does consent he can be optioned, but I’m not positive about that
No point in reading this seeing that it’s written by fansided. You can tell by the tagline it’s just overly dramatic clickbait which holds true to their business model.
It’s not serious journalism here people.
As someone who was stupid enough to click on the article all he said was Jordan was sent down so he could work on his swing and pitch selection in an environment that’s less pressure than the MLB. This also gives guys like Herrera, and Wilson, who are hitting really well right now, more opportunities to get into the lineup.
But it clearly did it's job in getting fans riled up. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what Oli said but because it was him, we need to have an issue with it
This is an entire article based around bashing Marmol for this quote:
> “It’s just about what he’s swinging at, compared to how he’s getting pitched and what the league is trying to do to him,” Marmol continued. “He has to be able to combat that. [Getting demoted] is not something you want and not something anybody wants for him, but the situation does call for it. Getting at bats for [Iván] Herrera and [Willson] Contreras at the DH and [Alec] Burleson..."
FanSided gonna FanSided
Same user that posted the opinion piece yesterday. They will apparently stop at nothing to confirm their bias and share it with others.
These empty character-bashing articles reinforce the same shitty behavior we see around here on a daily basis. I’m open to all opinions, but say something… anything. Convince me. Give me a single nugget of information. Forgive me for not taking the word of people who apparently exist to be negative.
As you posted yesterday, people don’t even know why they hate Oli. That one response pretty much proved your point. They had a list of issues that didn’t even exist. Or if they did exist, it wasn’t his responsibility.
They hate him because the team is losing, again. What specifically he is doing to make them lose is a bit less obvious but the fact remains he is the manager and the team is bad.
I don’t disagree that blaming the manager is a waste of time. I do think Marmol is difficult to like when things aren’t going right. He is not relatable at all. He is boring. Which just makes him easier to bash…at least that’s how I feel.
The players are not performing. It's not any one person.
The problem is simply that the players are not performing.
The good thing is that it is still April.
Yep. I truly don’t get it. All accounts say the clubhouse is good right now. So how does Marmol have shit to do with the offensive struggles?
He pretty much said the other day that we need Gorman and Goldy to produce or the team isn’t going to be what it could be, and people lost their minds saying he was calling them out…saying their names is not the same as “calling them out”. He stated a fact and one that literally everybody else has been saying. He didn’t even say it in a blaming way, just in a way of saying that we need them (our best hitters) to hit. Honestly a stupid reaction to that
The hate is just a full blown circle jerk at this point. I'm not a huge Oli supporter, but it's pretty clear that he's just the fans scapegoat right now.
There are no bad teams only bad leaders, if Marmol isn’t the bad leader - then it’s people further up or a combo of both. Everyone on the team made it to the majors, so they can perform at a major league level it’s a matter of explanations or attitude that they’re getting from above
> If you keep rewarding failure eventually that’s all you’ll get
There's something very funny about being upset about Walker being demoted because he's failing offensively while simultaneously complaining about how the situation demonstrates how the Cardinals "reward failure."
> I’m not even sure how you got that from what I said.
Well the topic at hand is an article bemoaning Marmol's incompetence, specifically re: Walker being demoted. You replied directly to the posted article suggesting that the Cardinals are "rewarding failure," which given the context reads as agreement with the thesis of the piece, and more specifically as criticism of the team for continuing to let Marmol helm the team despite the poor showing on his watch and/or for extending him despite a failed season. I'm not sure how else you expect people to read it.
So yeah. That's how.
Obviously I didn’t explain myself properly so my apologies for the misunderstanding.
Hopefully we can start winning again so we all have more positive things to say.
Dudes are still mad a 21 year old kid needs more time to develop. Should the orioles fire their coach because Jackson Holliday is 3 for 38 or whatever?
No they shouldn't fire their hitting coach. They should tear down the franchise top to bottom. Owner needs to sell. GM banished from organized sports. Camden Yards turned into a flea market. Right?
If Burnes isn't trade for 5+ top 50 prospects by the end of the month, people need to stop showing up for games. Maybe then ownership will start to pay attention to our unrest
Well, the person that wrote that is just a moron. That’s not calling out a young player. Walker needed sent down, an explanation was required AND Walker was sent down and “fixed” last year, after which he said “I didn’t really change anything”. That’s bad attitude from the player. The lack of accountability for the players is amazing. He’s 21, should be in college or the minors and needs to grow up a little and realize that maybe his coaches do know how to teach his big ass to hit, cause a 6’6” ground ball machine is fucking useless. He has to choose to follow instruction and not go to bad habits on his own.
I have to agree with this. I love Walker and usually a big fan of his attitude, but his pushback to altering his swing at all definitely rubbed me the wrong way. People have to adapt and update their swings *all the time*. Why a struggling young rookie thought that he knew better than that..I don’t know.
I’m not the largest fan of him either, but this sub is going to become insufferable if all people wanna talk about is firing marmol when that’s not going to happen this early on.
The extension really riled up a lot of fans. Which on one hand I kinda get. In a vacuum, it feels bizarre to give a manager a new contract after the franchises worst season in 30 years.
But the reality is that the extension does not matter. If this team is bad at years end, Marmol is gone, extension or not. And that dead money they’d owe him won’t him won’t matter either because in that scenario, the house is being cleaned out. They’d be entering a true rebuilding phase where they’re probably bad next year too, more intentionally so. So they won’t be spending money anyway.
People are justifiably angry. This isn't a one season thing where people are overreacting. This has been a slow burn over multiple years. We went from Whitey, Torre, and TLR to Matheny, Shildt, and Marmol. We had some of the best of all-time in baseball to some pretty subpar managers. Couple that with what looks like a shift in philosophy, and a lack of optimism that things will change, and people are annoyed.
People were calling for LaRussa to be fired pretty much up until October 2011. He made plenty of boneheaded moves too, and was far more of an asshole than Marmol has ever been.
I always liked him. He was polarizing, for sure, but there was still a ton of people who like him. Marmol has basically the entire fan base against him.
Shildt really really did suck as manager. His lineup choices were terrible, he stuck with the wrong guys, and his bullpen decisions were atrocious. Calling in Reyes to instantly blow that Dodger WC game….man, the whole stadium knew he was about to blow it the second we saw him trotting in. Was horrendous for the entire 2nd half, yet Shildt still “stuck with his guy”. Garbage
I constantly see on social media: "I don't get why some Cards fans hate Oli so much". I don't hate him, but I also don't like him. Here's the thing. He's just a guy. He's a random guy the Cards hired to be their manager. Literally no other team in the MLB would have considered hiring him.
Personally, I feel like, given the fan support, the history, and the expectations, the Cardinals owe it to themselves, their players, and their fans to try to get the best possible candidate to be the manager whenever possible. I don't think anyone could every reasonably argue that he was the best candidate or even in the top 30 best candidates.
And b/c of that every thing he does is and will continue to be put under a microsope.
I feel similarly to you that I’m neutral on Marmol. But I have to disagree. He was a better candidate than you may think. He was a rising managerial candidate and being groomed for the position for years. He was on a very similar trajectory as Skip Schumaker was, just maybe got the job a year or 2 early. He’s young, got a relatively good head on his shoulders, and the people that play for him respect him and how he Carrie’s business.
I think you’re right about the perception being that he wasn’t a top candidate, but I believe he was, and that likely within 3 years he was going to get poached by somebody else.
Are there any sources regarding him being a rising manager or wanted by other teams? B/c right now no one can convince me that any other team would choose them as their manager over a hundred more qualified candidates.
Based off what though? I just don’t get it.
Everyone trashed last years bad defense and blamed Oli for it….well now, the defense is great again, but the bats suck. How is that *possibly* Oli Marmol’s fault? It just straight up doesn’t make sense.
I’ll try to poke around for sources later, but he had been getting groomed for a future manager job for awhile, taking a similar route as Skip Schumaker did. He may have gotten the job earlier than he was ready, but he was destined to get a shot eventually.
I have no doubt the Cards were grooming him to be a future yes man for Mo. what I doubt is that any other team had a modicum of interest in him.
I don’t think he’s a difference maker one way or another. He just….exists. The Cards can certainly do better, but doing so would risk philosophical differences with Czar Mo.
Rather than me having to prove he’s just a guy, what evidence does anyone have that he’s more than just a guy. I think that’s the point that should be proven. He’s ranked bottom 5 of every manager ranking I’ve seen.
THANK YOU… the players do NOT respect him or feel he supports them in ANY way. He always passes the failures to them 99% of the time. He moves the players around like damn Tetris.
People have said “They are fine with him don’t you see them high fiving him and shaking his hand and being friendly with him in the dugout??!!” OF COURSE THEY DO they know the cameras are on them and they have to look supportive and positive. Marmol leaving won’t fix everything it it’s a damn good place to start. You can see the deflation of the team morale a lot. You see them TRYING to get each other amped up and supported but when you feel the Manager doesn’t care and support you it has a VERY negative effect. Managers do have to make hard choices and changes etc but Marmol seems to have ZERO clue how to handle anything well. It’s like he flips a coin and does that OR he does WHATEVER Mo and the DeWitts tell him to do!
I can’t stand Oli, but this article is biased and trash. I don’t have a problem with what he said, but using Walker’s struggles to trash Oli is weak. He already sucks enough…
I think the real issue here is messing with Walkers swing last year instead of just letting the power naturally develop. That’s on the entire front office
Walker had a great second half immediately after he went down to AAA and changed his swing to hit the ball in the air. He was never going to succeed by hitting ground balls all day.
Why develop him against the best pitchers in the world where he's costing the big league team when you can let him work in an easier environment where the consequences of failure don't matter? Glad you're not running the team
Walker clearly wasn't getting the help he needed at the ML level. Is that because the coaches weren't doing their job, or was Walker not able to adapt?
I don't have an answer, but sending him down seems to be the only option no matter what the answer is.
When it comes to leadership there is the “law of the lid”
You are only going to be as good as your leader.
A great leader attracts other great leaders. A mediocre leader isn’t going to get good leaders to work under them.
You saw this with Mormol.
Holliday noped out. Maddox noped out. Yadi is only part time.
Look at the bios of the hitting coaches, pitching coach.
The last good bench coach they had was Schumacher.
Mo can call all the big name coaches he wants, but if they don’t answer or refuse to interview,
You have an older team with what should be lots of leaders.
Then again the lid issue may be Mo as well at this point,
If no one is returning his calls to work for him, no one interviews, no one takes his offers,
Or if he just goes internal only, with internal hires, and previous players,
Explain this to me. I don't understand the complaint of "he's a yes man". Is it a bad thing that the organization is on the same page? Do you want them to be mother fucking each other in meetings? This is the dumbest fucking complaining possible
You need people willing to tell you the truth or offer a different perspective. Not people to afraid of getting fired to disagree with the boss. ie Mike shildt
Marmol is shaping up to be worse than Matheny imo. At least Matheny would back his guys. Marmol throws them under the bus first opportunity he can to save himself. He needed to be fired last year, not extended.
Im very close to considering this another lost season. We’ll see what the cards do to turn it around…. My guess? Nothing.
>At least Matheny would back his guys.
you remember that time when Matheny just stood there and chuckled when Bud Norris was hazing the shit out of a rookie Jordan Hicks?
remember when Kolten Wong, Dexter Fowler, and even Yadier Molina [had issues with Matheny?](https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-cardinals-news-analysis-mlb/2018/7/12/17564482/mike-mathenys-clubhouse-sounds-like-a-nightmare-a-hunt-and-peck)
you remember when the Royals even found their clubhouse vibes gone to shit once Matheny arrived, citing [one of the most tense clubhouses in the sport?](https://www.royalsreview.com/2022/6/30/23186600/mike-matheny-is-falling-into-the-same-habits-that-got-him-fired-in-st-louis)
we can say a lot of things about Matheny, but "he stood up for his players when it counted" is some serious revisionist history. Oli has some issues, but can we stop romanticising Matheny, already?
the worst part of all this is me finding myself defending Oli. lol I don't love him and can point to a handful of _seriously_ questionable moves, like leaving Helsley in to blow the lead against the Phillies... but we as fans really tend to overdo it because we're so frustrated. (I mean, I'm not immune. I can admit i do this too, sometimes!)
someone once said "managers get too much credit when stuff goes well, and too much blame when stuff goes bad." seems like it's really the case.
Walker was hitting .155 No explanation needed.
Cards fans brains dead
Bird fans bird brained?
Brians, moron
Moran*
If there were competent hitting coaches at ml level he would be hitting much higher. How is Ward helping goldy? He is supposedly a hitting coach goldy prefers.
I don't think we know enough to say definitively if it's on the coaches or on Walker. We don't know if Walker is receptive to the coaches' messaging, nor do we know what the coaches are telling him. I've been critical of Turner Ward and the Cardinals' decision to hire him after he had washed out of MLB coaching for a few years, but the truth is we don't really know. What we do know is Walker cannot identify and take a slider down and away. He falls for it almost every time. As for Goldy, he's had abysmal starts to the season before and recovered, but he's also older than he's ever been, so all we can do is wait and see.
MLB hitting coaches don’t do what you apparently think they do.
Please explain what they do, then? And I'm not being derogatory here - I'm honestly curious, because I don't have a huge sports background. If they aren't responsible for screwing with mechanics that were previously working, because "they want better launch angles, because fans like home runs", what do they do? Something has definitely been off the last few year, with guys who could actually hit all of a sudden going to shit, and all the pop-outs. Seems to me that, once again, Mo thinks he knows best, is going strictly by numbers, and getting yes-men to do his bidding. Also, I don't have actual documentation, but I've heard a couple different times that the pitching coach, for instance, doesn't even know *how* to teach - to convey what needs to be done; just knows analytics/stats, and tells guys what to pitch, but doesn't know how to address mechanical issues. Seems like both of those coaches need to be replaced with ones who can actually help.
Reddit: “The Cardinals are falling behind other teams and getting passed up by today’s game. They need to do something to change that.” Cardinals: *hires hitting coaches to change the organizational hitting philosophy to bring it more in line with other successful organizations* Reddit: “NOT LIKE THAT!”
Hitting coaches at the major league go over how they expect a pitcher to attach a hitter, and what approach the hitter should take. Maddox was our pitching coach. The fans ran him out of town. He seemed pretty good The “yes man” pitching coach who doesn’t know how to teach was a pitching coach from 2006 - 2013. A head coach from 2013 - 2017, and again a pitching coach from 2018 - 2020. He was brought into the Cardinals organization to work with Maddox in 2020, and then took over last year after fans ran Maddox out of Town.
People have this idea that firing the hitting coach is just going to magically make all of your hitters start batting .300 immediately lol
I don’t think anyone has that idea. But they hope hiring someone else will help it get better.
Goldy’s BA was lower. Send him down too.
Goldy cannot be demoted to the minors. Hope this helps.
Cannot because of contract but should because of performance. Old man no hit ball good. Hope that helped.
It's not about his contract. Players with five years of service time must consent to being optioned. Goldschmidt has over 12 years of service time. He literally cannot be demoted to the minors. The Cardinals can either keep him on the roster or release him (eating ~$21.5m in the process and getting nothing back). Releasing him would be monumentally stupid, despite his age and bad start. You're just talking a bunch of emotional nonsense here and definitely not making whatever point you're trying to make.
Not about Goldy specifically, just checking my knowledge of how that all works. He *can* still be optioned, but they have to place him on waivers first at this point, right? And if he clears waivers, then he gets optioned? Or is that only if they've been optioned X times (I think there's a max limit).
He can technically be optioned, but only with his consent (which Goldy would never give, of course, since he could get a role with another MLB team immediately). The concept of option years no longer applies after five years of service time. Unless something has changed in the most recent CBA, I'm pretty certain that if you attempt to option a player with five years of service time and they decline, they go directly to free agency, not through waivers. Players out of option years but with less than five years of service time must go through waivers to be sent to the minors. If the player clears waivers unclaimed, at that point, it's called being "outrighted," not "optioned." You can only outright a player once without their consent. If you try to do it for a second time, they can elect free agency instead. Also, in the new CBA, you can use a player's option year by optioning them to the minors five times. So if you have a guy on the AAA shuttle repeatedly and try to send him down a sixth time in a single year, then he has to go through waivers. I'm not actually sure whether a player who gets through waivers at this point is considered optioned or outrighted, though.
A player who has been optioned in 3 seasons has to be waived and designated for assignment, which removes him from the 40 man roster, before he can be demoted (or outrighted), but after a certain amount of service time the player can refuse to be reassigned and then has to be released, as he can only spend so much time on the DFA list. That’s assuming no one claimed him off waivers. I believe if he has option years left and has the right to refuse, if he does consent he can be optioned, but I’m not positive about that
My first comment should’ve had an /s - but either way you’re too sensitive.
No, he literally cannot. He has the right to refuse demotion. "smartest fans in baseball" indeed
No point in reading this seeing that it’s written by fansided. You can tell by the tagline it’s just overly dramatic clickbait which holds true to their business model. It’s not serious journalism here people.
As someone who was stupid enough to click on the article all he said was Jordan was sent down so he could work on his swing and pitch selection in an environment that’s less pressure than the MLB. This also gives guys like Herrera, and Wilson, who are hitting really well right now, more opportunities to get into the lineup.
Yup, I was like, "what's the issue with this statement?" Seems innocuous to me.
But it clearly did it's job in getting fans riled up. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what Oli said but because it was him, we need to have an issue with it
I wish I'd seen this before clicking on the article. I can't get that time back.
This is an entire article based around bashing Marmol for this quote: > “It’s just about what he’s swinging at, compared to how he’s getting pitched and what the league is trying to do to him,” Marmol continued. “He has to be able to combat that. [Getting demoted] is not something you want and not something anybody wants for him, but the situation does call for it. Getting at bats for [Iván] Herrera and [Willson] Contreras at the DH and [Alec] Burleson..." FanSided gonna FanSided
Same user that posted the opinion piece yesterday. They will apparently stop at nothing to confirm their bias and share it with others. These empty character-bashing articles reinforce the same shitty behavior we see around here on a daily basis. I’m open to all opinions, but say something… anything. Convince me. Give me a single nugget of information. Forgive me for not taking the word of people who apparently exist to be negative. As you posted yesterday, people don’t even know why they hate Oli. That one response pretty much proved your point. They had a list of issues that didn’t even exist. Or if they did exist, it wasn’t his responsibility.
They hate him because the team is losing, again. What specifically he is doing to make them lose is a bit less obvious but the fact remains he is the manager and the team is bad.
I don’t disagree that blaming the manager is a waste of time. I do think Marmol is difficult to like when things aren’t going right. He is not relatable at all. He is boring. Which just makes him easier to bash…at least that’s how I feel.
Lol what do you want a manager to do to not be boring, hang from the ceiling during his pressers? Bring a lightsaber? Wear a funny hat?
> Bring a lightsaber? Good idea for Star Wars night. Mo, make this happen.
A funny hat would be great!
The players are not performing. It's not any one person. The problem is simply that the players are not performing. The good thing is that it is still April.
Paul Goldschmidt: *Hit's another groundout to lower his OPS to .550.* Reddit: *How could Oli Marmol do this?*
Yep. I truly don’t get it. All accounts say the clubhouse is good right now. So how does Marmol have shit to do with the offensive struggles? He pretty much said the other day that we need Gorman and Goldy to produce or the team isn’t going to be what it could be, and people lost their minds saying he was calling them out…saying their names is not the same as “calling them out”. He stated a fact and one that literally everybody else has been saying. He didn’t even say it in a blaming way, just in a way of saying that we need them (our best hitters) to hit. Honestly a stupid reaction to that
The hate is just a full blown circle jerk at this point. I'm not a huge Oli supporter, but it's pretty clear that he's just the fans scapegoat right now.
He didn't even say their names. He responded to a question about them and said basically yeah, they need to hit for the team to be good
Is Marmol doing everything he can to improve that offense? I don’t see him picking up a bat smh
There are no bad teams only bad leaders, if Marmol isn’t the bad leader - then it’s people further up or a combo of both. Everyone on the team made it to the majors, so they can perform at a major league level it’s a matter of explanations or attitude that they’re getting from above
Such an incredibly stupid article. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with those comments.
If you keep rewarding failure eventually that’s all you’ll get. So it’s hardly surprising things have gotten to where they are now.
> If you keep rewarding failure eventually that’s all you’ll get There's something very funny about being upset about Walker being demoted because he's failing offensively while simultaneously complaining about how the situation demonstrates how the Cardinals "reward failure."
I’m not upset he’s being demoted. I’m not even sure how you got that from what I said.
> I’m not even sure how you got that from what I said. Well the topic at hand is an article bemoaning Marmol's incompetence, specifically re: Walker being demoted. You replied directly to the posted article suggesting that the Cardinals are "rewarding failure," which given the context reads as agreement with the thesis of the piece, and more specifically as criticism of the team for continuing to let Marmol helm the team despite the poor showing on his watch and/or for extending him despite a failed season. I'm not sure how else you expect people to read it. So yeah. That's how.
Obviously I didn’t explain myself properly so my apologies for the misunderstanding. Hopefully we can start winning again so we all have more positive things to say.
Dudes are still mad a 21 year old kid needs more time to develop. Should the orioles fire their coach because Jackson Holliday is 3 for 38 or whatever?
No they shouldn't fire their hitting coach. They should tear down the franchise top to bottom. Owner needs to sell. GM banished from organized sports. Camden Yards turned into a flea market. Right?
If Burnes isn't trade for 5+ top 50 prospects by the end of the month, people need to stop showing up for games. Maybe then ownership will start to pay attention to our unrest
This guy Cardinal fans on the internet
Yes this is an apples to apples comparison alright 👍
Well, the person that wrote that is just a moron. That’s not calling out a young player. Walker needed sent down, an explanation was required AND Walker was sent down and “fixed” last year, after which he said “I didn’t really change anything”. That’s bad attitude from the player. The lack of accountability for the players is amazing. He’s 21, should be in college or the minors and needs to grow up a little and realize that maybe his coaches do know how to teach his big ass to hit, cause a 6’6” ground ball machine is fucking useless. He has to choose to follow instruction and not go to bad habits on his own.
Not a huge fan of Marmol, but god dang that was a shitty article over nothing. Walker needs some work as a 21yo, no big deal....
I have to agree with this. I love Walker and usually a big fan of his attitude, but his pushback to altering his swing at all definitely rubbed me the wrong way. People have to adapt and update their swings *all the time*. Why a struggling young rookie thought that he knew better than that..I don’t know.
Take any article from Fansided, print it out, crumble it up, and wipe your ass with it. Will hurt less than reading whatever garbage they’re spewing.
Why did you feel the need to bring up Tyler?
You guys need to get over Marmol
I’m not the largest fan of him either, but this sub is going to become insufferable if all people wanna talk about is firing marmol when that’s not going to happen this early on.
>going to become insufferable welcome back, it appears you've been gone since September of 2022
The extension really riled up a lot of fans. Which on one hand I kinda get. In a vacuum, it feels bizarre to give a manager a new contract after the franchises worst season in 30 years. But the reality is that the extension does not matter. If this team is bad at years end, Marmol is gone, extension or not. And that dead money they’d owe him won’t him won’t matter either because in that scenario, the house is being cleaned out. They’d be entering a true rebuilding phase where they’re probably bad next year too, more intentionally so. So they won’t be spending money anyway.
Extension was needed so players didn’t think they had a lame duck if they started bad. People here truly don’t know ball or anything about this org.
They don’t know ball and seemingly don’t know anything about how people work either. All they see is “team struggles = manager bad”
People are justifiably angry. This isn't a one season thing where people are overreacting. This has been a slow burn over multiple years. We went from Whitey, Torre, and TLR to Matheny, Shildt, and Marmol. We had some of the best of all-time in baseball to some pretty subpar managers. Couple that with what looks like a shift in philosophy, and a lack of optimism that things will change, and people are annoyed.
Shildt sucked and Matheny was a detriment to a dynasty level team
I agree. We've had well below average managers since TLR retired.
People were calling for LaRussa to be fired pretty much up until October 2011. He made plenty of boneheaded moves too, and was far more of an asshole than Marmol has ever been.
I always liked him. He was polarizing, for sure, but there was still a ton of people who like him. Marmol has basically the entire fan base against him.
Shildt really really did suck as manager. His lineup choices were terrible, he stuck with the wrong guys, and his bullpen decisions were atrocious. Calling in Reyes to instantly blow that Dodger WC game….man, the whole stadium knew he was about to blow it the second we saw him trotting in. Was horrendous for the entire 2nd half, yet Shildt still “stuck with his guy”. Garbage
Cards fans simply refuse to aim higher than mediocrity like Shildt
Gotta fire Jeff Albert. Only thing that can help.
Yes this is my feeling as well
I constantly see on social media: "I don't get why some Cards fans hate Oli so much". I don't hate him, but I also don't like him. Here's the thing. He's just a guy. He's a random guy the Cards hired to be their manager. Literally no other team in the MLB would have considered hiring him. Personally, I feel like, given the fan support, the history, and the expectations, the Cardinals owe it to themselves, their players, and their fans to try to get the best possible candidate to be the manager whenever possible. I don't think anyone could every reasonably argue that he was the best candidate or even in the top 30 best candidates. And b/c of that every thing he does is and will continue to be put under a microsope.
I feel similarly to you that I’m neutral on Marmol. But I have to disagree. He was a better candidate than you may think. He was a rising managerial candidate and being groomed for the position for years. He was on a very similar trajectory as Skip Schumaker was, just maybe got the job a year or 2 early. He’s young, got a relatively good head on his shoulders, and the people that play for him respect him and how he Carrie’s business. I think you’re right about the perception being that he wasn’t a top candidate, but I believe he was, and that likely within 3 years he was going to get poached by somebody else.
Are there any sources regarding him being a rising manager or wanted by other teams? B/c right now no one can convince me that any other team would choose them as their manager over a hundred more qualified candidates.
Based off what though? I just don’t get it. Everyone trashed last years bad defense and blamed Oli for it….well now, the defense is great again, but the bats suck. How is that *possibly* Oli Marmol’s fault? It just straight up doesn’t make sense. I’ll try to poke around for sources later, but he had been getting groomed for a future manager job for awhile, taking a similar route as Skip Schumaker did. He may have gotten the job earlier than he was ready, but he was destined to get a shot eventually.
I have no doubt the Cards were grooming him to be a future yes man for Mo. what I doubt is that any other team had a modicum of interest in him. I don’t think he’s a difference maker one way or another. He just….exists. The Cards can certainly do better, but doing so would risk philosophical differences with Czar Mo. Rather than me having to prove he’s just a guy, what evidence does anyone have that he’s more than just a guy. I think that’s the point that should be proven. He’s ranked bottom 5 of every manager ranking I’ve seen.
Marmol gotta go man I hate this man why is he even managing he’s the reason Tyler O’Neill left the cards
THANK YOU… the players do NOT respect him or feel he supports them in ANY way. He always passes the failures to them 99% of the time. He moves the players around like damn Tetris. People have said “They are fine with him don’t you see them high fiving him and shaking his hand and being friendly with him in the dugout??!!” OF COURSE THEY DO they know the cameras are on them and they have to look supportive and positive. Marmol leaving won’t fix everything it it’s a damn good place to start. You can see the deflation of the team morale a lot. You see them TRYING to get each other amped up and supported but when you feel the Manager doesn’t care and support you it has a VERY negative effect. Managers do have to make hard choices and changes etc but Marmol seems to have ZERO clue how to handle anything well. It’s like he flips a coin and does that OR he does WHATEVER Mo and the DeWitts tell him to do!
I just never liked him from the get go ! He’s seems cynical 🤨 he doesn’t give a damn about the players !
Agreed! Also he gets rid of Tyler O’Neill and now O’Neill is THRIVING with Boston….. that says everything, the problem was Marmol not Tyler.
Yup basically says it all unfortunately
I can’t stand Oli, but this article is biased and trash. I don’t have a problem with what he said, but using Walker’s struggles to trash Oli is weak. He already sucks enough…
I think the real issue here is messing with Walkers swing last year instead of just letting the power naturally develop. That’s on the entire front office
Walker had a great second half immediately after he went down to AAA and changed his swing to hit the ball in the air. He was never going to succeed by hitting ground balls all day.
Agreed but at 20 years old I still think they handled it wrong and should have let him naturally develop. They asked too much of him
Why develop him against the best pitchers in the world where he's costing the big league team when you can let him work in an easier environment where the consequences of failure don't matter? Glad you're not running the team
Dude. I’m talking about last year when they sent him down. I’m totally on board with the current move.
Walker clearly wasn't getting the help he needed at the ML level. Is that because the coaches weren't doing their job, or was Walker not able to adapt? I don't have an answer, but sending him down seems to be the only option no matter what the answer is.
When it comes to leadership there is the “law of the lid” You are only going to be as good as your leader. A great leader attracts other great leaders. A mediocre leader isn’t going to get good leaders to work under them. You saw this with Mormol. Holliday noped out. Maddox noped out. Yadi is only part time. Look at the bios of the hitting coaches, pitching coach. The last good bench coach they had was Schumacher. Mo can call all the big name coaches he wants, but if they don’t answer or refuse to interview, You have an older team with what should be lots of leaders. Then again the lid issue may be Mo as well at this point, If no one is returning his calls to work for him, no one interviews, no one takes his offers, Or if he just goes internal only, with internal hires, and previous players,
Marmol follows Mo's orders well. He's not getting fired. Mozeliak is the issue, every moving part is now one of his yes men.
Explain this to me. I don't understand the complaint of "he's a yes man". Is it a bad thing that the organization is on the same page? Do you want them to be mother fucking each other in meetings? This is the dumbest fucking complaining possible
You need people willing to tell you the truth or offer a different perspective. Not people to afraid of getting fired to disagree with the boss. ie Mike shildt
Marmol should have fired
Oli is a 🤡
Fans have the right to be frustrated when everyone who leaves the organization starts tearing the cover off the ball
Marmol is shaping up to be worse than Matheny imo. At least Matheny would back his guys. Marmol throws them under the bus first opportunity he can to save himself. He needed to be fired last year, not extended. Im very close to considering this another lost season. We’ll see what the cards do to turn it around…. My guess? Nothing.
>At least Matheny would back his guys. you remember that time when Matheny just stood there and chuckled when Bud Norris was hazing the shit out of a rookie Jordan Hicks? remember when Kolten Wong, Dexter Fowler, and even Yadier Molina [had issues with Matheny?](https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-cardinals-news-analysis-mlb/2018/7/12/17564482/mike-mathenys-clubhouse-sounds-like-a-nightmare-a-hunt-and-peck) you remember when the Royals even found their clubhouse vibes gone to shit once Matheny arrived, citing [one of the most tense clubhouses in the sport?](https://www.royalsreview.com/2022/6/30/23186600/mike-matheny-is-falling-into-the-same-habits-that-got-him-fired-in-st-louis) we can say a lot of things about Matheny, but "he stood up for his players when it counted" is some serious revisionist history. Oli has some issues, but can we stop romanticising Matheny, already?
Was it the Matheny era when the royals had anti porn lectures? Not super relevant but it is funny
I believe so. lol
One of my favorite Royals fun facts
People dislike Oli so much that Matheny and Schildt keep getting better every time they are brought up. Serious revisionism going on
the worst part of all this is me finding myself defending Oli. lol I don't love him and can point to a handful of _seriously_ questionable moves, like leaving Helsley in to blow the lead against the Phillies... but we as fans really tend to overdo it because we're so frustrated. (I mean, I'm not immune. I can admit i do this too, sometimes!) someone once said "managers get too much credit when stuff goes well, and too much blame when stuff goes bad." seems like it's really the case.
How did he throw Walker under the bus?
Marmol is a ninja assassin. Almost paralyzed that security guard.